Control is overrated

0:00Luke Moore: Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. And whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, reporters on the ground with all the big teams, and the legendary football weekly podcast, The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more. Hi, friends. Grace from the Working Hard podcast here.

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2:05Luke Moore: Hello everybody, welcome to the Football Ramble. Arsenal squeezed through and a barn burner at Bayern. It's Thursday 16th of April, I'm Marcus Speller. And I'm the bass player from the Wurzels.

2:30Luke Moore: Welcome, everybody. Good to have you with us on a thrilling Thursday in the Football Ramp. A Thursday thrill. Of course, it is a Thursday thrill. There's no doubt about that. May I say straight away that all the thrill came from Germany last night? Yes, it did. And that's where we're beginning, Luke Moore. Absolutely, which is tragic in a World Cup year, but there we go. we can't even put up a beautiful British game of football in a World Cup year but I guess we'll come on to that out of duty rather than joy later in the show but yeah the Bayern Munich Real Madrid game incredible encounter you were saying to me before we came on you were at the Emirates last night so that was your poison but I said look mate anything you think could have happened in a football match last night at Bayern Munich probably did happen.

3:21So it was one of those games.

3:23Luke Moore: Yeah, so Bayern Munich won 4-3 on the night, 6-4 on aggregate. But my goodness, 10 goals in the tie. That's nine more, lest we forget, than Arsenal and Sporting gamers. But I'm not bitter. A brilliant game in Munich. A classic, a Champions League classic between two of the most successful sides in the competition's history who have played each other before. Bayern have often struggled to beat Real Madrid. There's no shame in that. But after that 2-1 victory at the Bernabeu in Madrid, you thought, right, surely they're on for it, Luke. Yeah. Within the first minute, though, there was high drama.

4:03It's making the Premier League look bad. It's making it look worse. Oh, we're just sitting there for 20 minutes waiting for a set piece. And these lot are doing that down the road. Yeah, I mean, what was absolutely crucial to the drama of this game was that both goalkeepers were diabolical. Which is something you maybe would say about Loonin, who I thought was really poor all night, actually. I mean, you know, sometimes it's not flagged up as much because, you know, one of Bayern Munich's goals was basically direct from a corner. And then the camera just cuts to the goal celebration and then the drama of the night.

4:40And then if you actually watch the replay, I mean, Loonin's like standing in his own goal. The only thing that's in front of the goal line It's like his fist, which is nowhere near the ball. So he had a really point. But obviously, the big headline goalkeeping story was Manuel Neuer. He's one of the greatest goalkeepers to ever play the game, as we know. Just absolutely scuffing a pass inside a minute to Arda Goulet, who delivered an absolutely beautiful finish, that has to be said. I mean, it probably takes away from the fact, takes away from it a bit that it was an open goal. But I mean, he shoves it right on the corner first time.

5:14And then we were away. And so we knew it was going to be a pretty dramatic night after that. And then it didn't really stop being dramatic after that, to be honest.

5:22Luke Moore: No, it didn't. And that's the funny thing. Goalkeeping errors and defensive errors have been quite alarming in this tie. Again, you go back to the first leg in the Bernabeu. Bayern didn't manage to capitalise on some shockers at the back that Real Madrid had. And you thought, OK, surely they're going to tighten up and all the rest of it. And Manuel Neuer, absolutely brilliant in that first leg, as I say. rolling back the years. You think, surely that man can't be 40 years old and he's putting that performance in the Champions League. And then this time, as I say, the first six minutes, two bad goalkeeping errors.

5:53Luke Moore: And that set the tone quite wonderfully in this tie because, as you say, it was hectic. It was chaotic. It was the complete opposite of what we got in the end. Yeah, there was no control whatsoever. Absolutely zero control. And we often talk on the show, don't we, about how the modern coaches, they want to control as much as they can in the game. and there was just none present whatsoever here. I mean, you know, there was, you know, two sendings off in the end. Obviously, one happened after the final whistle. There was goalkeeping disasters. There were, you know, brilliant goals, fortunate goals.

6:27And what's interesting actually as well is, you know, a rare bit of prediction coming true for us yesterday. I said that, you know, ultimately, I think Bayern Munich will take the game away from Real Madrid, which is basically what happened. and then Vich said Elisa will stamp his name on the tie, which he did at the end with a beautiful goal that sealed the whole thing. But I mean, Kane got his 50th goal, which I think is the first English player to do that since 1931. If you want to contextualize how prolific his season is, it's not been done by anyone from this nation for almost 100 years, you know.

7:02So everything was there for it. It was a fascinating affair.

7:07Luke Moore: there yeah and you say that about mod managers wanting control you're absolutely right surely though they should do the the right thing now let's get rid of control yeah let's get rid of control it's overrated as all us fans love it we tried that it doesn't work goals are the best bit of football yeah and and when we want more of them and look if you've got quality in there you'll score more than the opposition take a leaf out of keggy's book you know what i mean Take a leaf out of Ozzy Ardiles' book, if you remember that lot. Yeah, absolutely. There's plenty to be had there. Two brilliant sides, of course, going head-to-head and so on.

7:44Luke Moore: On Harry Kane's goal, it was a goal that you would, I suppose, expect him to score. Give a lot of space. He was given a lot of space, which you shouldn't do that for Harry Kane. But the way he just waited, he just paused for the moment for that space to open up even more, which was very, very composed. which is something we've come to expect. His laser-like finishing ability needs to be, I mean, it's probably going to be studied a lot in retrospect, but it kind of does need to be focused on at some point because, yeah, we've seen really good finishers in the past. Obviously, football is, you know, littered with great forwards and great strikers.

8:21We were talking about one the other day. We were talking about the original Ronaldo the other day, who for me, the best striker to ever do it, you know, that I've seen anyway. Kane's finishing is something completely different to, I think, probably to any other forward player. I mean, you mentioned yesterday, you know, he's playing like the best forward in the world. You know, I get that. The numbers would speak to that. You know, he might lift the Champions League this season, you know, which would be, I think, commensurate with his ability and his work rate and how good a career he's had. I mean, he's been light on trophies for the obvious reasons.

8:54So it'd be great for him to get one. but I don't think I can think of a finisher in recent years that's better. I mean, even if you think of like the big rival for the best forward in the world with him would be Haaland, right? Yeah. I don't think you can say Haaland is as good a finisher as Kane at this point. I think Haaland's left foot is sensational but I kind of feel like towards the second half of this season he's not at the level Kane's been at.

9:27Luke Moore: This season, yeah. You, yeah, second half of the season. I think... How do you assess their relative finishing ability though? Oh, I mean, they're both top draw. I mean, it's about that. I think we have enough of a sample size from Erling Haaland to know that despite having had a little bit of a dry patch in the last sort of month or two or whatever, however long it's been, he is a proper poacher. I think Kane, they're very different strikers. You know, we know Kane likes to drop deep and all that and Haaland is always asked to be in the box. I think Haaland is that good. I think that he may well start doing a bit of a Harry Kane kind of routine later on in a few years' time.

10:07Luke Moore: But, I mean, they're both wonderful players. But Kane's finishing. It's not just his finishing, it's his shooter. Kane has an absolute wand of a right foot. We know that from his passing ability, for example. The accuracy, the long diagonals he can play, all that sort of thing. he can do anything with that right foot of his. A phenomenal player. I really hope he wins the Ballon d 'Or because that will almost certainly mean that he has a very good World Cup league league. But I find it quite laughable going back. I did at the time a little bit and I'm going to be even wiser after the event, Luke, with Harry Kane.

10:40Luke Moore: Easier that way? Much easier and more satisfying. When a few people, I don't know how many, I know one or two pundits did, sort of scoffed at Kane going to the Bundesliga thinking, oh, but that's just, so what? You win a Bundesliga title. You can beat Alan Shearer's goal-scoring record in the Premier League. And it's a bit like, are you mad? He goes to Bayern. He is among elite players at an elite-level club going for Champions Leagues. Yeah, okay, fine. They win the Bundesliga, but I mean, good on him for winning the Bundesliga. You know, like they needed to take it back off by Leverkusen. And okay, they're running away with it now.

11:14Luke Moore: But also he's in this, I suppose you might say the twilight of his career because, you know, he's in his early 30s, even though it feels like he'd go on and on and on. You're in a league where it isn't as competitive. You might argue is the Premier League, although still very competitive. And you have fewer games. So actually, in a physical sense, quite a wise move. But that's a sort of a by-the-by. The fact is Harry Kane is getting the plaudits. He's playing this level of football, which he's taken to another level. He's playing the best football of his career. Why is he doing that? because he's around eliteness.

11:50Luke Moore: That's why. Yeah, okay, fine. He could have stayed on and maybe by now, maybe in another season's time, he might have taken Alan Shearer's record. Oh, fine. But what have you got to prove? Oh, well, you're not a great goal scorer unless you score more than Alan Shearer. No. Like what he's doing right now, I'm so pleased for Kane and I'm so pleased he made this move because people are now talking about Ballon d 'Or and Champions Leagues and all the rest of it. It's greatness. He has achieved greatness since he's gone to Bayern Munich. I think also, you know, for him to do, to get a goal and an assist actually in this game last night, a crucial game against a team who, you know, who identify with the Champions League and they judge themselves on it and they have been on the right side of it against Bayern Munich before, that's another feather in his cap.

12:33You know, to me, without jumping ahead, it looks like the winner of the Champions League this season comes from that semi-final with PSG.

12:39Luke Moore: I think that's a fair assumption. Although as much as I'd love to see Atletico do it, I think that's really probably the safest of bets to say it comes from that side of the draw. Look, last night was life and death. They went toe to toe. It was an amazing combination of great ability, great top-level talent on display, but also real muck and bullets determination as well, who sometimes, even at the very top level, just comes down to these tiny moments, whether you get to a ball first or whether Kamavinga loses his head momentarily and it really hurts them. And then Bayern Munich had the coup de grace with Alisse late on.

13:16And then obviously another narrative kind of taking it back to English football, because after all, we are, you know, a London-based show, is that, you know, Luis Diaz provides this cutting edge, scores a crucial goal in a Champions League knockout tie. And the night before we're watching Liverpool just really struggle to provide any kind of thrust or kind of decisiveness in the penalty area at all, right?

13:36Luke Moore: Speaking of moving to Bayern at the right time, yeah. Yeah, and it was a really amazing bit of play where just before Diaz actually scores what proves to be a crucial goal, he gets a great chance and he dallies on it a bit. And Trent Alexander-Arnold comes in and nicks it off him. And you think, Diaz to get into that position, something that Liverpool have really struggled to do, and then Trent Alexander-Arnold nicking it off him. It's like two Liverpool players, ex-Liverpool players kind of coming together. But it was a great night of football. It was really good. What did you think of the Kammerwinger sending off?

14:06Luke Moore: Real Madrid were furious. Yeah, I found it quite odd. I thought it was a bit harsh. Yeah, it was kind of difficult to see what he had done wrong, really. But then when I kind of watched it a couple of times back and then thought about it a bit, because obviously you're getting absolutely no insight whatsoever from the fucking commentary team. I mean, they're not going to give you anything. I mean, it was just remarkable how little you got. He's been sent off now, but do you think he'd rather play in the Premier League? Yeah, exactly. So you have to kind of work it out yourself, which is fine. because as you know Marcus I like to do my own research it's just a simple delay of play isn't it I think it's a crucial part of the game I thought it was a bit petty foggy I thought it was a bit harsh I think you know I don't think you should change the laws because of the occasion and I'm not one of those people who says you know you've ruined the game as a spectacle because that's not the referee's job but I do think if you can apply a bit of common sense as we were talking about in a different show I think earlier in the week you could probably let that go and no one's going to say anything.

15:07I mean, the amount of it, you and I have both seen in the past, you know, players on a yellow card do much worse than that and not get a second yellow. And so I thought it was, you know, it's a very long-winded way of saying, look, it's four delaying at the play. I get that, but I thought it was a bit harsh.

15:25Luke Moore: I did as well. And it does actually change the time. I mean, we have that classic thing, you get loads of goals in the first half and then for some reason both teams seem to sort of look at each other at half-time and go, let's all calm down. You think, no, come on. But we obviously had drama with the red card and the two goals at the end. To me, it changed the tie. And Real Madrid are rightly furious about that because they now have another trophy-less season. They're not going to win the league, barring a miracle. And for their standards, it's not good enough. And Kylian Mbappe's wait for the major trophy at Real Madrid goes on.

15:59Luke Moore: But Ardegula scored twice in the first half. We didn't mention his second goal, which Neuer, you think when he gets over there, he's got a big hand. I'm just confused as to why he didn't save that. He gets himself in a weird position, as Joe Hart said, who is actually very good, said in the punditry. Yeah, and he gets sent off at the end of the match, and they became very modern-day entitled Real Madrid after the game, did they not? Yeah, I think, I thought, you know, Bellingham and Vinny Junior were just embarrassing there. I don't actually know exactly what Arda Goulair did to get sent off after the final whistle.

16:32Getting in their slipstream probably. Yeah, I would be surprised if it was more aggressive and unacceptable than what Bellingham and Vini Jr. did. But maybe Goulair just because he's a young lad. It's just easier. He's just the path of least resistance. But get rid of him. That won't be a headline. Get rid of him. Teach him a lesson. I thought three of them should have been sent off if you're going to go by that standard because they were embarrassing at the final whistle. There is an entitlement to Real Madrid. We know that. That's part of their make-up. Bellingham's definitely got that in his locker.

16:59You know, Vinicius Junior's definitely got that in his locker as well. I obviously do not condone at all the treatment that Vinicius Junior gets. It's unacceptable and, you know, it's followed him his whole career and it's disgusting. But he is also a very difficult character to referee, I imagine. And so, you know, I guess that is what it is. I thought across the two ties Bayern Munich were better. chiefly because, you know, if you look at, I mean, you mentioned the first leg earlier. If you look at the fact that they probably righted the wrongs of the first leg. So in the key moments in the second leg, they were decisive in a way they weren't in the first.

17:35They didn't capitalize on mistakes in the first. They did in the second leg. You know, you cannot really argue with the fact that an opposition player gets sent off five minutes from the end and you go and bang two goals and then make it count. That's really what you've got to do. It's not your fault the referee sent him off harshly. you know then you know Diaz comes in does what he does Alise puts the cherry on top with a beautiful goal and then you're through and that's really the margin in the latter stages of European competition so I mean that's really what happened.

18:02Luke Moore: Yeah you mentioned they'll be playing PSG in the semi-final that is a tasty clash I think most people like yourself would have the winner of that tie going on to win the competition we know about PSG they're the champions we know about Luis Enrique. We enjoyed his Barcelona team back a number of years ago now. He's worked wonders with PSG. But what about his opposite number in this time, Vincent Kompany? From Burnley to Bayern, it's an untrodden path. But how well has Kompany done in the job so far? I understand he is clearly one of those managers where he needs top players around him to get his methods over and so on and so forth.

18:45But you have to say, a very good job he's done at Bayern thus far. It's a great story because he was a really, as I said before, a couple of steps away from my laughingstock, really. I mean, he's like seventh or eighth choice to get that Bayern Munich job. It seems a bit of a poison chalice. The OTC guys have talked very eloquently about what he's achieved there. And they've done really, really well under him. And you're right to say that thing about top players, right? Vincent Kompany is someone who has played at the very top level and was an outstanding winning captain of pretty much everything you can win.

19:21And I do think there's an element of when you translate that down to players who are perhaps a bit more limited, it can really test you as a manager. I remember speaking, who was I speaking to? I can't remember, but it was a top player who was saying, don't take for granted the fact that you don't always have an awful lot in common with players who are playing in League 2 because the conversation was, oh, why don't these top players just go and humble themselves and manage down in League Two or the National League or whatever, like, you know, Jermaine Defoe's done and Wayne Rooney's done. And he said that, like, it's a different language almost.

19:53You know, the thing, if you've grown up playing at the very top level your whole life, like, say, Wayne Rooney has or, you know, whoever, the systems, the way of playing, the tactics, just the technical ability, you're going to be asking a lot of players to perhaps do something they can't do. and I'm not suggesting that that was the case with Burnley at company because of course he gets them promoted well from the championship but I do think he can absolutely relate far more naturally to the very top players because he was a very top player himself and also there is an element with the clubs at this level I kind of sometimes get the impression that although you get players who are difficult to man-manage that's why Ancelotti does so well because he's like this player whisperer type guy.

20:41But they are so driven and they're so kind of automatically want to be good all the time that perhaps sometimes it does just need a gentle nudge in the right direction because they obviously hold themselves up to a high standard already. If you can get your tactics right, you're kind of halfway there, right?

20:57Luke Moore: Yeah, I agree. So it's clearly a nice fit. And management and clubs is about a fit a lot of the time, isn't it too? Well, something that's very odd. I mean, I always cite Frank Reikard with this old Reikard, brilliant at Barcelona, to what they do elsewhere. But some managers need to earn their stripes. Some managers massively benefit from being in the lower leagues. I mean, look at, say, Frank Lampard. The championship is lower than the Premier League, to call it lower leagues. But given a tough job at Chelsea, tough job at Everton, look at him at Coventry. You know, he may well be on for the LMAs this season.

21:32Luke Moore: And someone like him has clearly benefited from that. Let's hope that, well, not everybody will share my hope, but I hope that an English man just can go on and actually make an impression of himself in the Premier League, perhaps with commentary. And with company, it's kind of like, if I was, bear with me here, if I'm going to use an analogy from the record industry. Do you remember, I'm sure you do, and I'm sure a lot of people do, when Arctic Monkeys came along. and a year later after their albums come along they're playing the type of gigs that bands who go on to make it may not play for three four five six years time yeah i think people go well it's too soon they should be they should be driving all around the country and playing the clubs and it's kind of like yes some bands need to do that to get the experience and to to get their dynamic on stage and whatever it may be but why are we holding why are you trying to hold these lads back they've got it yeah let them go yeah let them fly very much like when i first heard you behind a microphone marcus you know he's craig david he's born to do it you know he doesn't he doesn't need to earn his stripes for 10 years doing a podcast when no one listens to it he's already we're holding him back exactly butlin's released me and here i am but i i i think i think with company again like any idea of well but what did he do here that look he's doing it at bion And he's in the hat very much for the champions.

22:56Luke Moore: I say in the hat, we know who they're playing. He could well end up being European champion come the end of the season. But the small matter of beating PSG is to be addressed. And then, of course, Arsenal-Atletico. Let's not forget them because they are two decent sides as well. And coming up after this, we're going to talk about Arsenal, who went through to the semi-final.

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26:31Luke Moore: I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. And whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, reporters on the ground with all the big teams, and the legendary Football Weekly podcast, The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more.

27:02Luke Moore: Welcome back, everybody. Right, everybody just calm down. Calm down. We're talking about the chaos in Munich last night. Let's just take it easy. Let's talk about Coldplay now. Let's talk about the Coldplay of fixtures. In comparison. Arsenal zero, sporting zero. It ended 1-0 on aggregate. One measly goal across 180-plus minutes of football. But Arsenal, they've reached the Champions League semifinals. Credit where credit's due. It's the first time in their history that Arsenal have reached back-to-back Champions League semifinals. Mikel Arteta was very keen to let the people watching on TV know that it was history made in Arsenal's, in all their time that they've reached back-to-back semifinals of this competition.

27:47Luke Moore: Luke, how... I mean, what do you make of it all? Have you seen the Peaky Blinders movie yet? No, I haven't. I've seen the series. Right, so the series is great. Everyone loves the series, you know. We don't quite go to the level of dressing up like them, but we like it, right? And you see the Peaky Blinders movie, and I went to go and see it at the cinema because I was excited by it. And the reason I was excited about it was, you know, it's Cillian Murphy, it's Stephen Graham it's Rebecca Ferguson, it's Tim Roth it's Barry Keown and it's you know it's put together by the people who make Peaky Blinders and it's probably the most average film you'll ever see and it's far less than the sum of its parts and it leaves you feeling really underwhelmed and even though the whole thing that they achieve with Peaky Blinders is really impressive, you come away from thinking, ah, yeah, whatever.

28:41And I kind of feel it's a bit like Arsenal's season at the moment. They are achieving things that are undoubtedly pretty impressive. They're still top of the league by a decent amount. They're in the semifinals of the Champions League for the second season in a row when really they've actually never won this competition despite being a massive club. And they've got good players. And they fill their stadium every week. Yet at the moment, it feels like everything they do is a bit kind of underwhelming. And I can't think of the last time an English club got to the semi-fire of the Champions League and it's been met with such a kind of shrug, you know, not just from us, but from Arsenal fans as well.

29:31You know, so this was a poor game last night. I really, I'm afraid to say to our listeners and our viewers, I actually can't tell you whether Arsenal were poor or have they just controlled it, kept it at arm's length and just thought we've got a massive game on Sunday, so we're just going to do just about enough. I suspect it's probably a bit of both, but mostly the former because I think they are in a sticky patch at the moment. And they were a little bit lucky here and there because Sporting had their moments, they hit the post. You know, but ultimately they're in the semi-final. are they going to have to raise their game to get past and let's go across two legs?

30:09Absolutely. They've got to find something from somewhere. I do still think the system that they are playing with is getting in the way. They kind of need to group exhale and relax a bit and remember who they are and what they're all about. And I think it's all got a bit serious and a bit intense. But I wasn't impressed yesterday. It was a really shit game. It was boring. But they got it done. I mean, you were at the game, Marcus. So you could probably tell people a lot more eloquently than I can what was going on.

30:40Luke Moore: No, I think that's right. I think how many times this season have we said, come on, Arsenal, show us something? More in the second half of the season, I would say. But no more so than in the last sort of few weeks. I mean, that Carabao Cup final loss, I think unless Arsenal put this right, we're going to go back to that time and time again and say, yeah, Guardiola are putting the blueprint on how to beat them. Now, Arsenal, it shows you just how crucial the moments are in these games. If Arsenal draw in Lisbon against Sporting, then what happens last night? If Arsenal lost that game, which they could have done on another day, then what happens in this game?

31:22I think that sometimes, again, to try and spin it very, very positively,

31:28Luke Moore: fans of teams will say, well, maybe I'm glad we didn't win away from home because, you know, we've got to take them back now. to our stadium and then we've got to go and win we've got to go and show something well Arsenal didn't need to do that and I think they were aware of that and that probably suited them in a weird way because you're right there's no doubt about it they're in a sticky patch I mean since the previous round in the Champions League where they beat Bayer Leverkusen 2-0 you had a world-class goal from Eze of course and you had a wonderful finish from Declan Rice I think it was who they won the tie.

32:01Luke Moore: That was the two moments. But if you start scrolling back through their results, which I have been doing, I mean, through March, they beat Chelsea 2-1. Bit of controversy in that game. Beat Brighton 1-0 away. They beat Mansfield Town in the FA Cup 2-1 away. They drew that first leg in Germany against Bayer Leverkusen and won all with, if I remember correctly, a fortuitous penalty. They beat Everton 2-0 at home at the Emirates where Pickford has a bit of a flap at the first one, which informs the second goal, which Downman scores breakaway. I've talked about Bayer Leverkusen there. They've lost 2-0 in the Carabao Cup final to Manchester City.

32:34Luke Moore: Then they lose 2-1 to Southampton. They beat Sporting 1-0. They lose 2-1 against Bournemouth at home. And then they draw 0-0. And we're up to the present day, just to remind you all of that. What a rollercoaster that was. With no ups and... There's a great rollercoaster, but you don't go upside down or up and down at any point. You just carry on back round to the start again. Exactly. I mean, the last time they scored more than three goals in a game was on the 22nd of February against Spurs, where they beat them 4-1. As you saw that in March, throughout March, you know, now people will say, but that was enough to win games.

33:07Luke Moore: It was. It was. But the goals have really started to dry up now. You saw it even against Bournemouth. Again, fortuitous penalty. OK, fair enough. Credit to Jocker as he put it away. But Arsenal are not scoring goals, which is why I think it was so crucial that they got that goal in Sporting, as it turned out to be. There was no attacking edge. There was no creativity. Yes, they're good defensively. We know that. The midfield, Rice coming back from illness or injury, you know, was good in the midfield. They're solid. But up top, my goodness, there is no creative spark at all. No. Again, the only one who kind of looked a bit lively when he came on was Downman.

33:49Luke Moore: I mean, Downman played a lot. Well, I think Ezeh tried a lot, but kind of faded the way. But do you know what, Luke, though? But here's where the system is. And this is, we talked about teams wanting to control games when we're talking about Real Madrid and Bayern Munich in the first half here. Clearly, that's what Arteta wants. We know that managers have done this for a few years now. If you shoot from range, it's a low percentage play. So recycle possession, recycle possession. The ace in Guardiola's pack in his peak years was Kevin De Bruyne. If he gets a chance to shoot, well, actually, that's a pretty high percentage to play.

34:22Luke Moore: He's one of the best midfielders we've ever seen in the Premier League. So he obviously could shoot when he felt that that was the best option to take. Arteta's not telling Arsenal this. Eza, at times, didn't have too many shooting opportunities. But I thought, go on, let it fly. But the problem is, you do that, you then lose the ball. And Sporting have got it and then can attack. and this is the thing, Arteta, with that one goal advantage, was never going to be adventurous in this game. He was always going to be like this. We know what Simeone's like at Atletico. I mean, could the semi-final, I would say, would it be the lowest scoring tie in the competition?

34:59Luke Moore: Well, we've just had the one goal over two legs. Is that going to be settled by a penalty shootout after two nil-nils? I don't know. But Arsenal, how many times have people said this recently in particular? they have to find a creative spark. Otherwise, they will go out of the Champions League with a whimper. If they manage to get past Atletico, they'll be pumped in the final by whoever they play. And we've seen PSG can do that, if indeed it is them. They are going to drift in the Premier League. And the front three they went for, Jim said on the pod, and I totally agreed with him, it doesn't work for whatever reason, that front three does not click and it doesn't work.

35:36Luke Moore: So if Arteta thinks, oh, well, we'll give it another go. You're giving it another go in the second leg of a quarterfinal in the Champions League. Well, you got away with it because Arsenal are a superior team to Sporting and they shut them down well. But honestly, the stadium last night, there was a nervousness. The only time it relaxed was about, I suppose, 10 minutes to go when Arsenal put their foot on the ball and thought, right, OK, we can control this game. We're going to give Sporting nothing. It's a little bit of a gamble. I give them credit for doing that because, okay, you're in a sticky patch.

36:06Luke Moore: You've got to play the game rather than the occasion. Eventually, they did that and they got away with it. You can't keep doing that. You can't do that in a semi-final. You certainly can't do that in a final. You've got to give us more, lads. You just have to. Otherwise, you will end up trophy-less. And they've got a crucial fortnight, right? Because they've got this massive game on Sunday, which is the biggest game of their season. They've got Newcastle as well. and they've had a bit of recent history with them and who are capable on their day. I think particularly, you know, Newcastle can play a bit more with the shackles off away from home.

36:39We saw them do that, I think, from memory at Everton, where they were pretty good. And then they've got the first leg is in Madrid, right? So it's a really, really bad time to be having all these questions to answer, particularly with your front three. because I remember once speaking to Graham Lassau about this and he talked about how you play for a struggling Premier League side. Slightly different challenge, but the principle I think is interesting and relevant to this. Ray says, you play for a struggling Premier League side and all the preparation through the week is, you know, how we're going to keep it tight and how we're going to not concede because they know they haven't got the quality up front, right?

37:19And it just puts an unbelievable amount of pressure on the back five players over and over and over again because as soon as you concede when you're playing a good team, you start to really worry that you're not going to get back in the game because you're not scoring enough goals. And I think you can certainly say that out of the fact that in the last five games, Arsenal have scored, I think, a total of three goals, and they've played Bournemouth at home and Southampton in the Cup, including in that. So this is the wrong time to be having this issue. They will have to improve against Man City, of course.

37:54but then what makes this Sunday game such a tantalising one is that the game between these two sides at the Emirates was like almost a role reversal it was so interesting well totally yeah it feels a long time ago now

38:05Luke Moore: well it does it's one of a number of reasons why I thought yeah Man City you're not going to win the league this season because the way they set up in that game as you say was like oh we're just going to hang on okay they scored but then the dynamic of the game set in and I thought oh yeah Arsenal are going to do it I mean again being at the Emirates last night you go all the way back I've cited it before when they beat Bayern 3-1, they were magnificent that night. And I thought, you are looking at a side who will win trophies this season. They still could. As you rightly point out, they are top of the league.

38:34Luke Moore: Even if Man City beat them and win their games in hand, they will draw level with Arsenal. So it's still in Arsenal's hands. But you're looking at this and it's so uninspiring. I mean, Gokeres last night, for example, Marcus, I mean, it was poor stuff. It was poor stuff. Yeah. I mean, I can't name you, I don't think, other than perhaps a goal against Chelsea and a goal against... I think... I'm struggling to think of a team other than one goal against Chelsea that domestically that Giocares has scored against that's been a really good team. I don't know if he's done that. He's scored a few... Interestingly enough, he scored a couple against Atletico Madrid in the group stage of the Champions League, right?

39:19So that bodes pretty well. Yeah. But, and then just to kind of lean into that point about how, you know, going forward, they've got a problem. You know, what you see a lot of Arsenal fans calling out for, you know, I've listened to the Arsenal show we've got and heard those guys chatting about it and being frustrated. It's a massive outcry for, you know, Arteta's got to start Havertz further forward. He's got to start Havertz up front. And it's like, fine, I get that. But Havertz hasn't scored a single league goal this season, right? because he's been injured. He's been out for so long and when he's come back, he's not really looked like scoring in the Premier League at all.

39:58Luke Moore: Luke, they've got enough. I understand there are certain players, you know, if Man City go without Haaland or Cherokee, you know, they're not going to be as good. But Arsenal have got enough this season to do better and it has to be something to do with what Arteta's doing. People say, the mentality, the nervousness or whatever. Well, you've got to address that. That's a part of being a manager. Totally, totally. And what they're doing right now is, you know, and Maduweke went off injured as well. I mean, that's, you know, again, I don't think he's pulled up threes this season, but, you know, he's a player, he's an attacking player.

40:32Luke Moore: I think he's got to start Dalman, or Dalman has to feature. I mean, surely he will. Like I say, he didn't play on the wing yesterday when he came on. He was in the midfield three. But what he provides from that position, if indeed he does play there, he gets the ball and he goes and provides a bit of thrust. I think we'll see him start against City, I do. I think for all the reasons you said. He provides something, he tries something, Luke, but he's not reckless. He tries something, but you can see positionally he gets back in there. So he's, I'm not, you know, again, it's unlikely you're going to see somebody become, you know, peak Steven Gerrard and rip the top off and you've got the big Superman S underneath and I'm going to do it all.

41:11Luke Moore: It just doesn't happen these days and it wouldn't happen at Arsenal. But he's the only one, as I say, who tries. I mean, Gabriel Jesus may be a little bit when he came on as well. They have to do something different. Otherwise, it's going to end with a win. I just don't think this iteration of Gabriel Jesus is a difference maker at a very top level that's going to win you a trophy. No, and I think that's it. I think at the start of the season, I was saying I think they've got the best scored on balance. And I still probably went with that. But I think the signings of Gay and Semenyo have helped Man City enormously.

41:40Luke Moore: Of course they have. And I just look at Arsenal and think, who are your match winners now? And as you say, people crying out for Havertz and so on. Yeah, OK, he got the goal. He did score the goal against Sporting and said, OK, he's made a difference there. But I think we're saying the same thing over and over again here with Arsenal. I would also just add, just finally, that I would be concerned about the chat that's coming out as well. It's not just Arteta. It's Declan Rice after the game yesterday. The projection is quite palpable. For no reason at all, Mikel Arteta was saying, no fear, fire.

42:17And it's like, if you happen to say in a press conference, there is no fear, there is no fear, unprompted, there probably is fear. And if you have to say as Declan Rice, who's the captain of the team that night, you know, you're addressing things that aren't really being asked. I mean, Jules asked him if the evening was frustrating because of course it's been a nil-nil game. And he says, no, we've just got to another Sunday final. Who cares what people think? Well, no one's really talking about what people, we've not accused you of anything. We're just asking if the game was frustrating, yet you're projecting, you're basically belying the fact that you know that people are saying what they're saying about you.

42:57And if that's getting into your mindset at this stage of the season, I'll tell you something now, it's not getting in Man City's mindset. There's no way. And it won't be in Diego Simeone's mindset and it won't be in Luis Enrique's or Bayern Munich's either. So it's all the ingredients are there for a colossal collapse and an empty-handed season. And it's up to them to address that, right? So it is really the old Alex Ferguson squeaky bum time for Arsenal at the moment.

43:25Luke Moore: Yeah, but to put it another way, to try and get a bit of positivity, look, here you go again, Arsenal. You get a good result against Man City. My goodness, that would give everyone at that club so much, a huge lift. And also, Atletico Madrid, this Atletico Madrid in the semi-final of a Champions League, You bite your hand off for that. You bite anybody's hand off for that. Not that Atleti are a bad side, but Arsenal are better. They are. And, you know, Arsenal have had a very fortuitous draw in the Champions League so far. Yes, you've got to beat these teams, I understand. Sporting and Atleti are no mugs, but my goodness, it is there.

44:00Luke Moore: Please, lads, for crying out loud. For my frustrated neutrality's sake, would you just take it? I'm deary me. One man that I'm sure the cameras will pick up in the crowd on Sunday is the Manchester City fan who is pretending to drink from an Arsenal water bottle on Sunday at Stamford Bridge. He revealed he'd written a secret message in the bottle. He was interviewed, of course, by Sky Sports News because, hey, you've got to fill 24-hour rolling news. I just feel like this guy could be slotted alongside the guy who won't cut his hair. The England fan who looks like Steve McLaurin for some reason has got a book out.

44:39like what is happening oh come on do you want Sam yeah him as well the Willstone Raider yeah exactly

44:47Luke Moore: Pete Dolson Pete Dolson yeah the Man City fan did call his son Yaya yeah I think that's kind of quite nice in a way yeah doubly positive in German yeah exactly exactly yeah he's the man from Del Monte in Germany

45:04Luke Moore: oh dear right everybody we're going to leave it there thank you very much for listening to the Football Ramble part of the Acast creator Network. We're back tomorrow alongside Jimmy Campbell, the Arsenal fan, for the preview show. And we'll see what Jim thinks about the big clash this Sunday between Manchester City and Arsenal. Thank you, Luke. Thanks a lot. And thank you, that Man City fan. And we'll see you tomorrow.

45:32Luke Moore: The Football Ramble is a stack production and part of the Acast Creator Network.

46:05Luke Moore: The Guardian. have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective, and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S. national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On The Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app, and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this... Well, I think the problem is, if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay. Be sure to listen to our Football weekly podcast for on the move expert analysis.

46:38Luke Moore: The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more. If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip-off and Grainger is your trusted partner. Offering the products you need all in one place from HVAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more and all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock so your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRANGER, visit grainger.com, or just stop by Grainger. For the ones who get it done.