Hit for six | 2026 FIFA World Cup

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0:39So I can do it during halftime and not miss any action. If you are 45 or older and at average risk, ask your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with the Cologuard Test. You can also request a prescription at Cologuard.com. 33 days, 33 episodes, no off switch. From the goals and the glory to the politics and the problems of the World Cup, if you want soccer analysis from a podcast that's been overanalyzing the game for more than 20 years, then this is it. Join me, Max Rushton, and our expert team of soccer journalists every day of the tournament. Can England end 60 years of hurt?

1:11Or will this be another year of falling just short? Probably. World Cup Daily, listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch full episodes on YouTube. This episode is sponsored by Michael's, your destination for all things birthday parties. We just had Lucky's first birthday, and it was so great to be able to go into Michael's and get everything. Of course, I knew they had craft supplies there, but I didn't realize how expansive their party supplies were. And Michael's really is where you can go to get everything for a party, whether you're planning a kid's birthday or even an adult celebration.

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3:37Luke Moore: Three is a magic number, everybody. Welcome to the Football Ramble. England bag the bronze in Miami. It's Sunday 19th of July. I'm Marcus Speller. I'm Luke Moore. And I'm Pete Donaldson.

4:02Easy!

4:06Ease! Ease! Ease! Ease! Ease!

4:15Podium! Podium! Podium! Medals! Dan Byrne, World Cup medalist! Embarrass the French!

4:23Luke Moore: Embarrass them! We're all here to hang medals round our necks, Luke Moore. We are! That's what we're doing. We'll take any colour. I'll take anything round my neck. Is that right? What's the worst thing you've had around your neck? That snake in Johannesburg that time. Oh, yeah. I think that was probably also the best thing you've had around your neck. Good point. It would have been. Yes, indeed. It would have been. Ah, well, everybody. All's well that ends well. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I said after the Argentina game? Yeah. Changed my mind. This ain't over. Nah, it changed my mind. That's the thing.

4:52Luke Moore: It's not over. No. It's not over. It is over. No. It's the strangest, most unique game of football. It was, and we will get onto it, but if we're going to talk hypocrisy here, you said yesterday, or you at least implied, the only thing that could lift your spirits was a Nations League campaign. How do you feel now? Well, I'll get to that, Luke, before you start attacking me on this celebratory morning. That's what this show is, isn't it? I'll just attack you for half an hour. France 4. Oh no, France scored four goals. Oh no, that attacking, they scored four goals. Ordinarily, that would be a disaster for the three Lions.

5:29Luke Moore: But we got six! France hit for six. If Vish was right in the headlines, that's what he would write. It's about time we beat one of the top nations. Yeah, look. Put that to bed now. Save it for the big stage. When you sort of write down your notes when you're watching a football match like that, you just do think, fuck off! Yeah, why is that happening? Fuck off, England. Peter, can I get another swear from you? Because yesterday was also Alan Pardew's birthday. And fuck him as well. That's why England did it. Bit of extra motivation. And that's what he wants. Yeah, absolutely. Do it for air pee.

6:04A lot of those players come through Crystal Palace. Yeah. There's a link there.

6:07Luke Moore: Must remember to thank him. That's what happened. No, that is genuinely what happened because obviously England were falling off out of time. Easy. Very easy work. Glad I didn't tweet then the Bronzes coming home. When the French all marched into the dressing room tail between their legs a lot of people were like oh, D 'Ado de Chomp will be saying you can't let us go out like this. You know, it's my last game in charge. But what he actually said was he flipped the notepad over just a big picture of Adam Pardew on the birthday cake in front of him he said do it for him do it for him do it for this fellow and they nearly did they nearly did some might say this is a very empty statement but it was England's best World Cup finish since 1966 well I don't think that is empty do you not?

6:47no I think the circumstances and the context are always key and we lived through it and it's been a rollercoaster and we were really disappointed for all the obvious reasons we've already discussed but But you kind of have to accept that England's best World Cup performance for 60 years is something that has to at least be acknowledged and respected. And I know France were out of the races. I actually thought France in the first half particularly were utterly disgraceful.

7:11Luke Moore: They didn't care. Yeah. And that ultimately cost them. It was a shrug. It was a collective French shrug. Yep. But... Does it have to be acknowledged in the same way that if you're walking home 3 a.m. and a man on some waste ground shouts, oi, you have to acknowledge it. You know what I mean? It's uncomfortable. It's meaningless. What would your acknowledgement be, though? What would your acknowledgement be? All right, mate. No, you wouldn't say that. You'd shit your pants. I wouldn't shit my pants. You'd run away. Yeah, I'd skitter around. Are you saying that you sort of have to acknowledge it just in case somehow you might know them?

7:40Luke Moore: Yeah, yeah, just in case. I'd hear to be rude. 99 times that 100, there's nothing in this hallway. Mr. Pigton. I thought you were there. Someone said you were home safe. I obviously always apply gospel rules in that situation, which is where I grew up. if someone's on waste ground at 3am shouts, Oi, I instinctively just take my top off. Get ready. Let's go. Get ready for it. Is it going to be romantic? Is it going to be a fight? Either way, my top's off. My top is off. Either way, you win. I do. The dignity remains. As Metallica once sang. But yeah, it was... I would say, you know, fair play to England for raising themselves, lifting themselves, applying themselves, because France didn't do that.

8:26They relied on some individual players in the second half to kind of get themselves back in it. It would have been a difficult second half England to approach, given Watton up in the first half. Very confusing. But France were there to be knocked over, but you've still got to knock them over, guys. And England did do that. It was a very strange experience to watch though, wasn't it? Because you don't really know how to feel. No, you're like, how drunk can you get in five days, aka the French defence? How relaxed can you be? They were, I think they spent most of their preparation for this game negotiating with D.H.

8:58DeShoppe whether they could go out on the piss in Miami or not. Yeah, probably. Which he said no to, apparently.

9:02Luke Moore: I think Robbie Williams would have watched this game going, oh, he's in for soccer aid. He's in for soccer aid. It was that sort of... Is that what he was kind of... Bradley Barker, we'll get over the soccer aid. Yeah, I mean, if this is how they're going to apply themselves, then I think definitely they would get the sort of ethos and feeling of it. I mean, for me, this match, it is an odd one. does it have any value or not is sort of the question. The European Championships don't have a third place playoff. Then there's a reason for that. Inexplicably, the Nations League does, which is remarkable.

9:34Luke Moore: And we won that one before. It's part of why we love it. One of the big reasons. Is that not just because the National League people don't regard it as being a premier competition? Peter, Peter, not today. Okay. I thought it might be. No, but the Champions League, the FA Cup, all cup competitions do not have this game. The FA Cup. But that's what I mean. But it's the same thing. It is. And that's how ridiculous it sounds. Has it always had it? I mean, British Army's always had it. So you kind of have to continue the proud traditions. I suspect it's because it kind of took over from the Olympics, really.

10:06Luke Moore: The World Cup, didn't it? Back in the day. In the 1920s, the first World Cup, 1930s. So perhaps they did it. And also, if you've been on a boat for six weeks, and back in those days there was only, what, 13 teams in the first World Cup, you play a couple of games, you're in the semi, you're off, and you think, well, we've travelled six weeks on a boat. all right fine let's get another medal made up and see if you can win that one could we chat to Rudy Giuliani's son and say can we have some more matches please because England have hit a rich fan of yeah maybe but does this game have any value is is the question and and of course the answer is ultimately no in a pure competitive sporting context I find it crazy and I never actually thought about this the killing of Mbappe could win the golden boot scoring two goals in this game if Lionel Messi only says scores one in the final he misses out by a goal and he's almost in with regard to that specific race not Pete penal is not the right word but he's given a bigger challenge to get that golden boot because he's playing in a final rather than third place plus there has been some chat about whether the goals in the third place plus should count and the fact is that that chat seems to be happening now I don't think I don't think that will be the case you know just goes to show what this game's about but so in a sporting thing England have reached the semi-finals of this World Cup, that's when they've been knocked out.

11:21Luke Moore: So this is not a game. Is the third place to buy for even a knockout game? It's such a strange... It's a little bonus game. But the reason why I think that there's a hint of value in it is only on an emotional level. For fans, because when England get knocked out of a semi-final, any team gets knocked out of a semi-final, but particularly in the circumstances of England, in a sort of a weird way, you feel a sense of loss. And it's kind of like you're gutted and you don't really know what to do with yourself for a couple of days or whatever. Seeing them play this game, and it was the same in 2018, and in 90 I couldn't remember it, it's almost like, oh, this is a way to say goodbye to these players in this tournament.

11:57Luke Moore: It just brings you, it just takes the edge off that ever so slightly, and it's clearly the same for the players. To see the England players having a bit of a smile, you know, somewhat celebrating the goals. It felt like AI. Well, maybe. They're trying to trick me. Maybe this whole game was AI, but also, but the fact is, you know, they stand there with the medals, a bit of a smile, you can see the disappointment. I think it does, in a tiny teensy way, help them, you know, a baby step towards getting over that semi-final defeat. I think that is the value of this game. It's closure for the post-traumatic stress disorder that they've suffered.

12:30Luke Moore: Closure is probably too strong, but I think it's a baby step towards the closure. I think it heaps more pressure on Thomas Tuchel, which is a fun aspect of it as well, a little bit. It's such a weird situation. But what do you think of that idea? No, I get it. I totally get it, yeah. Because I think, again, in a sporting concert, people are saying, well, does this annoy you even more about Wednesday? No, because whatever happened in this game, England could have won it 10-0, they could have lost 10-0, it could have ended 10-all, whatever the score, it doesn't change what happened on Wednesday.

12:55Luke Moore: No, that's right. But does it count towards competitive fixture against the top 10 opposition that we've found it so hard to... In our hearts or on paper? Well, on paper. On paper, yes. In our hearts, no. Famously, yeah, but on paper, correct. It does, yeah. But you need an asterisk next to it. So if somebody says, oh, England finally beat, you know, one of the top two nations at the World Cup, it has to have an asterisk, but it was in the third place playoff. Exactly, exactly. Some of the French team were drunk. Well, indeed, and that's what it is. This is why this game is so odd. And when I say England have had their best World Cup finishes in 1966, they've reached the semifinal as they did in 19-2018.

13:30Luke Moore: That is the real story of this. Credit to them, and it gave us a nice evening. And as I say, for those emotional reasons I just mentioned, I'm glad they won it. and it was lovely for Bellingham to score a great goal to finish off his tournament. But it's just really that emotional, slight sentimentality of it that has the value for me.

13:5433 days, 33 episodes, no off switch. From the goals and the glory to the politics and the problems of the World Cup, if you want soccer analysis from a podcast that's been overanalyzing the game for more than 20 years, then this is it. Join me, Max Rushton, and our expert team of soccer journalists every day of the tournament. Can England end 60 years of hurt, or will this be another year of falling just short? Probably. World Cup Daily, listen wherever you get your podcasts, or watch full episodes on YouTube. There are moments that reveal who we are, and who we're meant to become. For those born to lead, such moments call for a vehicle of equal distinction.

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16:14i think it's a an interesting game to analyze it's a really weird situation to experience you know your temptation is to be like well why and i imagine lots of people listening to and viewing this would be like, why couldn't England do this against Argentina? And it's like, well, because... It's totally different. It is totally different, Marcus, but we know that. But it's still frustrating. Your instinct is frustrating because you're like, oh, they can... When there's no pressure on them and there's no pressure on the ball, they can do what they want. But then you think, oh, yeah, of course they can because they're amazing players.

16:45And in that rarefied atmosphere of a semi-final when you've got everything on the line and everyone's fighting for every single ball, it's obviously not easy to do that. But I think it was nice to see the England players enjoying themselves. It is nice to come third because they can now technically say that's the best thing England have done for a very long time. England stunk the place out in 90 in the third place play-off. They stunk the place out really again against Belgium in 2018. They were by far second best in both those games. And here they've knocked over a good side who may or may not have been bothered.

17:13They were bothered in the second half, but then it kind of fizzled badly again. The defensive application in the last five, ten minutes was dreadful.

17:22Luke Moore: Mbappe got his goals. He did. Elissa was dead set on not scoring out this World Cup. He missed two really big chances. It was unbelievable. The Bellingham goal is a testimonial goal. He dances through France. It looks amazing, but it's like slow motion stuff. It looked like the French players had half an eye on the flight home and half an eye on not getting injured for the new season. And so, yeah, look, our role is to talk about the game. It is hard to talk about it because you don't really know what the story is going into the game, the application of the players or the rest of it. It's great that England won.

17:56It's great that we saw some entertainment. I dare say we might not see entertainment like that tonight. Although in the last World Cup final we did see an amazing entertaining game. Well, an amazing entertaining like half an hour, I guess.

18:06Luke Moore: Yeah. But I take the point. I mean, look, yeah. Declan Rice, that man will play every single minute of football available. Okay, I appreciate he didn't play against Panama in the group stage. It seems a long time ago now. But the fact he started the game, I suppose that was because poor old Kobi Maynou. This was his chance. he was injured you know wasn't even in the squad for the game I mean he ends up him and James Trafford are the only two England players that didn't get on the pitch at all at this World Cup but anyway Rice starts the game I thought Marcus I thought the Rice thing was because he wanted to play Tony or reward a different striker or something and that meant that Rice would have been captain and Rice probably wouldn't have not wanted to miss out being captive yeah I think Rice always wants to play definitely it looks like he's definitely recovered from that illness as well yeah well yeah and so Rice scores after a few minutes and you think You go, well, that's nice.

18:52Luke Moore: And I think that's the thing. It was a case of, that's nice. Konza scores. Well, that's nice. Great header, by the way. Lovely header as well. And then Saka scores. And suddenly it's like, oh my goodness, it's 4-0 at half-time. Well, the Saka's first goal was mad. Yeah. Absolutely mad. I mean, the way that France... The defending. France applied themselves towards getting, I guess, getting back into the game with a goal in a game that, for them, I suppose, doesn't really matter. Because obviously they've won it recently, so it's a different situation. But if you look at when the ball is played out, the counter-attack is started, there isn't a single French player deeper than about 35 yards from England's goal.

19:24Luke Moore: It's crazy. Yeah, it's not even like a marginal offside in the other half because it doesn't need to be. It's mad. And then the lack of application of defending for the actual goal itself, if you look at it again, Saka, as a shot, falls over. Rashford picks up the prebound. Just waits for Saka to get up and trotter through a few paces to the right and plays him in. It's a crazy, crazy goal. It's almost as if England are playing sort of an opponent the size of Luxembourg. It's soccer, right? It is soccer aid. Yeah, it is. But it's one of those, almost like a qualifier where you kind of go, okay, fine, let's get it done.

19:56Luke Moore: You know, give local school children free tickets to Wembley that night. You know, it's one of those sort of games. 4-0 at halftime, obviously Saka waxing the fourth and you're thinking, well, blimey, yeah, France have just not turned up. They phoned it in and England, yeah, 4-0, they're home and hosts. And then in the second half, France, I mean, Deschamps, you could see. And this is where it becomes somewhat a game of football. I said this yesterday that, or on Friday, that nobody will care about this game. But as soon as, when a game starts and there's that element of competition kicks in, you kind of go, well, I don't want them to win.

20:33Luke Moore: But there was a moment, so obviously Mbappe scores three minutes after the second half, the restart, then Barcola scores again. And you suddenly get, and then Mbappe, and then you go, actually, if England were to throw a four-goal lead, That would be quite embarrassing. And suddenly there was a little bit of stakes in the game. And obviously Alise then starts just missing chances. Some of the moves that France put together when they felt like it were amazing. Yeah, it was scintillating. Because as you said earlier, it was an odd second half for England because you're 4-0 up. How then do you do it?

21:08Luke Moore: You think to yourself, okay, well, if France aren't going to try, let's just kind of canter over the line. That's 100 % what happened. 100 % the reason why England's conceded two goals in eight or nine minutes after halftime. is because they would have been within their rights to think, if this is how France are going to play, there's no point busting our lungs out here. We're 4-0 up, we'll knock it about. And they kind of got caught out. Because France obviously got a rocket at half-time. Oh my goodness, yeah. So you're embarrassing the whole nation here. Deschamps is like, as Canate called it, I want the chocolate medal.

21:37Yeah. I've got to hand the keys over to Zidane in a minute. And he won't even look me in the eye.

21:42Luke Moore: I know. And I want those keys to be covered in chocolate, please. Well, in the Miami heat, that chocolate would melt. It would. We can't have extra time. We've got to get them. Oh, would the moisture kind of weirdly fortify it? I don't know how chocolate chemistry works. If it's hot, it melts. Get on a plane right now. If it's hot, chocolate melts. This can't be news to you. No, no, no. But what if it goes above a certain... You've been hoisted by your own chemical potard before. When? Go on. I want to hear this. When? Come on, Peter. I don't remember. I don't remember you remember. We used to talk about it.

22:12You were bared down on going, Peter. You can really show me that smart. Go on. Stick it in the bottom. Stick it in the bottom. Sticking them up and the net. What's going on? You're always getting caught out by chemical and scientific problems.

22:23Luke Moore: When he said on the island of Portsmouth, there's no gravity. Yes, exactly. Marcus, I'm always getting caught out by chemical and scientific problems. You are. You are. But what are they? You are. Peter, you had a real chance to land a blow there. Yeah, I know. And then you ended up hitting yourself in the face. I'm going on Reddit. Reddit. That's what we're doing here. Yeah. Well, I'm going to go back to the chocolate metal match. But yeah, so when it went 4-3, then France just started missing chances. I mean, England missed a couple of chances as well. But honestly, it genuinely was like, oh, lads, don't.

22:56Luke Moore: Like, if you lose this from being 4-0 up, that is actually going to be quite bad. At that point, it felt a bit like a kind of night out entertainment. It was almost like, I don't know, like Harlem Globetrotters game or something. Well, I mean, you saw the fact that, you know, France did start with, you know, a pretty strong team. I know England did as well, but Kane and Bellingham, the two best players, are not playing. Ivan Toney was given the nod up front. And then he even brought on Oli Watkins on the left wing, which was interesting. I suspect it's because he knew at some point he was going to take off Ivan Toney and then put Oli Watkins centrally.

23:32Luke Moore: So it was a chance for both sides, particularly England there, to give some players a bit of time on the pitch. You know, Dean Henderson started in golf. I thought he had a good game, actually. He made some really good saves. One outstanding save. Yeah, it was brilliant, wasn't it? I thought that was, again, you're just trying to sort of squeeze the positives, but I did wonder, could Dean Henderson be in goal even at the Euros maybe? Certainly the next World Cup, because, you know, unless James Trafford comes through and so on, but I suspect we won't see Pickford at the next World Cup, maybe the Euros.

24:01Luke Moore: But I thought that was a positive nonetheless. Even Trevor Chalabar got on the pitch on the end. Eventually, yeah. Got sat on his arse, poor old Trevor. I mean, if you're going to call me up late, and there's going to be a load of headlines, put me in, coach. Yeah. Jed Spence once again I mean good God I mean only Bellingham I think has probably had a better tournament For England It was a little bit chaotic at the back But just playing in tight spaces and going forward Wow That penalty win It took the pressure on On that by the way I want to ask you whether you genuinely think Jed Spence had a better tournament than Harry Kane Would you say that?

24:36Luke Moore: That's a good question Yeah probably not actually That's okay He gets a third place medal as well. Well, yeah. He gets a chocolate medal as well. I was a bit quick there. I think Jed Spence has been a plus point for England at this tournament. And can I just venture a theory that might be wrong? Go on. So is Bellingham the first England player to score more than six goals at a tournament? Yes. So he scores his seventh goal in the 98th minute. At the time the penalty was awarded, would he have been England's penalty taker? Possibly. So he would have had a chance. No, no, no. Saka was always going to take it.

25:11But I'm trying to get to the bottom of whether Bellingham gave the ball to Saka because it was his hatchery. I felt like that was happening. No, Saka said that wasn't the case.

25:20Luke Moore: I think Bellingham probably did that to, I mean, again, in that type of game, it was probably not necessary to do this. But I think he did it so in case any of the French players tried to put him off. It's that thing that we see sometimes teams do. A player picks up the ball, thinks, if you're going to try and get in my head, fine, because I'm not the one taking it. And then he hands the ball to Saka. Oh, okay. I think that's what he was doing. That's a lovely ruse. I didn't know that. I mean, there's no point if Kane's on the pitch because everyone knows Kane's going to take it. Exactly. Can I ask another question that you guys might have a take on?

25:50Is it frustrating that Saka didn't get a look in the semi-final based on the fact that he clearly seemed fully fit in this game?

25:59Luke Moore: Again, I'm happy to answer this question. The answer is, of course, yes. I would have taken Tony up top for times in that match just to hold up the ball a bit. Yeah, I think that, again, whatever happened in this game. No, but it doesn't change anything, but it just feels to me Tuchel says some odd things, right? He did, he did. Well, I think, you know, when we... So we had a responsibility to manage his minutes because if you're going to manage your guys' minutes, then fine, manage his minutes. But like, this is the semi-final of a World Cup and he's telling you he's fit. But Tuchel made the wrong decision.

26:27And he looks fit, right.

26:28Luke Moore: And that's it, because Saka came on against Norway and looked good in that extra time, if you remember. There were so many different kind of aspects of this match that piles more pressure on Tuchel and you get the feeling that it's going to have to be a really strong showing in the Nations League because by the time we get to the next proper tournament, I don't think Tuchel will be in a job if we're not beating Spain over two legs. Yeah, they're in the same group. That should be their level now. But England should be, again, they should find themselves in some sort of knockout football due to the Nations League because the Nations League, it's the top two that go through now.

27:08Luke Moore: they've added a quarterfinal in there because it was just semi-final so it was just the winners in Group A Joking aside though I know you like the Nations League and well done but does it move to dial for Tuchel the new Nations League I don't think anyone cares I think no but I think if it's a poor showing I think it just No because he's going to lead them into the Euros anyway that's my take No but I think Pete's right in terms of public support There's nobody out there but if Pep is circling Well that's an interesting discussion No They'd go all out for Pep They'd chuck They already have done They'd chuck Tuchel under whatever buses around.

27:40I think, yeah. But you can't, because the FA are skint. They can't just chuck him under a bus. There's always money for a manager like Pep.

27:47Luke Moore: Well, that game earned the FA an extra$2 million. There we go. You see? There we go. So a bit of price money on board. Turn it into Pep coin. But I think... Stable coin. Stable coin. I think in terms of, say, like the Nations League, I think if England were to do well in that, let's say England were to win it next summer, I think it would I think people's spirits would be lifted a bit and think actually do you know what that's okay of course it's not Nations League's coming home I'll be saying that but you know you'll be the only man in England saying it I'll find one or two don't you worry about that I think we'll get into it if they play well of course we will Peter there's no doubt about that but going back to this game and what was going on I think one of the real sad things that we're going to miss is the Tony Barry the Tony Baz half time interview and he got He got a bit emotional, didn't he?

28:35Luke Moore: Saying these lads are playing with broken hearts and to see that level of performance. I think Anthony Barry has been a real plus at this tournament. His honesty has been refreshing. I like that the human element of him saying that, you know, making it clear. And he was obviously being authentic because it actually looked like he was quite emotional as well. Yeah, he was. Saying that, you know, the players, how proud he is of them lifting themselves because it's so difficult. And I think that added a nice kind of human touch especially the fact that we as fans get so kind of pissed off and disappointed.

29:05We kind of lose sight of the fact that, of course, the players are really disappointed as well. Because they're the target of all our ire and disappointment, we just don't really treat them in a human way. And I'm definitely guilty of that. So, of course, they're going to be really gutted. And I think it's a pretty big mental assignment to have to wait around for three or four days and lift yourself for this, which ultimately is a joke game. It's a pointless game, as we've discussed. And for them to go up there and apply themselves, and I know France weren't up too much in the first half particularly, but to knock them over and to be really proud to do it and to be celebrating goals and to be into it.

29:38I know a lot of people out there will say, well, that's their job. But the emotional rollercoaster they would have been through. I actually thought it was a really nice touch from Tony Barry. I think he's been a great addition. I think he seems like one of the most intense blokes ever. And I would hate to be on the wrong side of him. And I like the way he runs away afterwards. I just want them to see, to move the camera so I can see how fast he runs. Because he moves out of frame very quickly. So ducks and moves, ducks and moves. Always on the move. And I want to see him whether he actually jogs back to the dressing room.

30:07He must do, otherwise there's no point doing that. He's just always got like, I just imagine he's got a cigarette on the go. Yeah, like that, yeah. I'd like to. I'd like to get back to it.

30:15Luke Moore: I think one of the things in the modern era that we miss from, you know, you go back to sort of the 80s and 90s on TV is presenters running after people trying to chat to them. Yeah. Roger Cook. The late great Roger Cook. Yeah, Annika Rice, you know, people are always running after people, you know, in whatever... She was running after the challenge though. She wasn't running after anybody. True, true. She was running in tribute to the orphans. Yeah, fair enough. So someone would have to run after Anthony Barry and like, try and interview him while they're running. I think that would be great TV.

30:43Be good. Is it indicative of an over-emotional set up at England at a time where we simply can't be that emotional? Tuchel is a very animated and angry manager on the touchline, at times where it possibly might be seen to be unhelpful in emotional and difficult games. And the same with T-Baz. He's obviously got that in his locker as well. Thomas Tuchel puts a shepherd's crook around his neck. Just yanks him out. Get back here.

31:11Luke Moore: Yeah. Maybe. Well, hopefully we'll find out the real reason. Would we like to see more of Tony? Tony Barry has got written all over him an ill-advised move to a number one job somewhere for three months. Correct. Absolute disaster of stuff. And then gets back quietly to where he was before. That's right. 100%. Whenever I hear Tony Barry, I think of Tony Basil. Hey, Mickey. Oh, yeah. Yeah, T-Bazz. Tony Barry is a very West End production name. Tony Barry. Yeah, exactly. Show tunes with Tony Barry in Leicester Square. That's why he goes with Anthony Barry. Tony Barry doing the songs of Jesus Christ Superstar.

31:47Luke Moore: Indeed. Special guest Lionel Blair. I know you're talking. My favourite of all the Lionels. well of course there is a Lionel who has got 8 goals at this World Cup that won't be enough for the golden boot Mbappe's got 10 and has become the all time leading World Cup goal scorer and that he did it in a third place playoff and that's fine because Just Fontaine obviously scored 13 goals at a World Cup I didn't realise 4 of them came in a third place playoff yeah so that's I'll be honest with you I feel like I've been lied to but anyway that's what we're doing so Messi would need to score a hat trick tonight or and I hate seeing this.

32:25Luke Moore: Two goals and an assist isn't it? Two goals and an assist because the tiebreakers used if two or more players finish joined top are the number of assists followed by minutes played on the pitch so basically the ratio of your goals and assists. And assists the tiebreaker was introduced in 1994. I didn't realise it was introduced that far back. Minutes began in 2006. So do you... It's piss-pott. It's nothing to do with goal scoring. So you instinctively record the change? Yes. But is it not being done because it's like it kind of says you are contributing more than your normal team player? It's the goal.

32:58It's top goal scorer.

33:00Luke Moore: Proper striker. You are always a striker. No, but you tell me, so how many goals did Michael Alisi score at this tournament? None. Well, he got a load of assists though. Yeah. He got a load of assists, Luke. Does that not count towards like one goal? Bollocks. That's what it is. If you have, as we did in 2010, I think it was four or five players who finished on five goals. Thomas Muller I think won it because of the amount of assists sorry lads I know you love your precious metals at FIFA but you've got to do five golden boots there XG, do it on XG it's just nonsense no but you don't have to do five golden boots because you could just do it by who scored the most goals in the minutes they played that would be more palatable but to me it still is sorry you either you have a week with the golden boot then you have to pass it on to whoever else is next or you hand out the golden boots I have two golden boots you've got two feet for fuck's sake there's that as well could you name the other three players that got five goals in the 2010 World Cup so it would have been David Villa Diego Forlan and the other chap Wesley Schneider oh Wesley Schneider yes you almost got the golden pervert award there and I think David Villa might have won it with the fewest minutes if it hadn't been assist yeah anyway who knows total bollocks is what it is with regard to that but I wouldn't put it past Messi doing it.

34:20Luke Moore: I think, I mean, obviously we're going to talk about the finals night after the break but I find myself in a weird situation because I would prefer Spain to win it. Yep, agree. But I think it would be an amazing coronation of Lionel Messi. It would be, as well. Amazing sign off, you know, if you used to do the business, you know. It's difficult, isn't it? Because I find Spain's football quite stifling and I do, I'd prefer to watch Argentina, you know, do what they do for better or worse. Not against England. Just not against England. And the Messi story is irresistible. And then, you know, we can't all be racist, can we?

34:58Luke Moore: There's a question for another time. Coming up after this, yes, it's World Cup final day.

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36:52We won five. Can I finish speaking? Are you going to interrupt? Can I finish speaking? Okay, because I don't interrupt your question. Okay, so don't interrupt mine. Show some fucking respect. So, sorry for the language. the in in the sorry what was the question sorry for sorry for the language apologise for getting fucking unbelievably angry that quickly apologise for that language alright what did I say I've forgotten you just said the F word what's the question again let's go

37:31Luke Moore: tonight Spain play Argentina in the World Cup final Phil Neville bringing us into the World Cup final chat he's delighted with that Yeah, this will be the first World Cup final between two continental champions. It's the finalissima, if you will. It is. It is. Yes. I find it funny with all the sort of political chat about England and Argentina. It's like, Spain used to own them. Yeah, they did. Have a pop at them. You're obsessed with these little lands. They used to own the whole land mass. Have a pop at them. Have a pop at them. Is there any narrative? At least start with them. At least start.

38:01Luke Moore: Have a go at them. Yeah. Bloody Nora. In a day when the Argentinian peso is worth less than a fortnight dollar. Have a go at them. kick them when they're down it's worth pestle yeah Argentina could become the first team to impact the back World Cup since Brazil in 1962 they're going to do it aren't they it feels to me like Pete had said before the break you know described Spain pretty well and I totally agree and their system it's tofu football yeah it is a bit their system is stifling and will strangle teams that's what it's designed to do but I can't get over and I think Spain are a better team of course but I can't get past the fact that it feels a bit like Argentina just won't be denied.

38:40And that might be biased because of what happened in the semi-final against a team I support. But it does feel quite destiny-driven. And you know that Argentina will really tap into that. Oh, yeah. They'll just say, spin, have the ball. We're going to give you a little kick on the ankles here and there. Yeah. And then turn it on. They'll say, we're all racist here. All of us. So it's a level playing field. Yeah, it's a level playing field.

39:01Luke Moore: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway. Do it for me, Lee. Oh, my goodness. If you grew your sideburns out, if you grew your big sideburns out, got a chainsaw, I reckon you could pass from Melee. I know. You could do Saturday Night Live as Melee. I could. He does look like my dad in the 70s. Who? Marcus or Melee? Yeah, I could double up then. Imagine that. He should be in the cast of Saturday Night Live. He could do your dad and he could do Melee for a kickoff. He could do Nick Hewer. South African leaders. He could do South African leaders as well. Yeah, past South African leaders. Yeah. Yeah, I don't do the current ones.

39:36You don't even know who they are. Learn them.

39:40Luke Moore: You know I can. You know I will. You've got two complacent. Marcus. I have a bit. Don't learn them. Carry on. Well, speaking of leaders, Lionel Scaloni, he, in terms of that emotional side of the game, Argentina obviously went a while without going to the semifinals of a World Cup and they got there in 2014, and went to the final, beaten by Germany. Hadn't won the Copa America for a long time. And Scaloni came in, and you know that a country like Argentina, if you get the emotions right, my goodness, it's a force that propels that side. He's got it spot on. I can't believe, again, well, I mean, I can, but I didn't think they would get to the final of this World Cup.

40:29Luke Moore: But here they are. And the fact is that in every game they've faced in the knockouts, you know, with Cape Verde, you know, you thought to yourself, blimey, they've made hard work of that. They still went through. You know, look at against Egypt. They needed that turnaround. They got it. Against Switzerland, yeah, they did get a little bit fortuitous. But, I mean, Spain did against Belgium when, you know, Lammond spills the ball. England a little bit fortuitous against Norway. You need that when you're playing a lot of games. And then, of course, against England, you know, yes, of course, England surrendered and handed them the initiative.

40:57Luke Moore: But, my goodness, Argentina took it. So he, you know, his record is superb. And it's so funny that Luis De La Fuente was an instructor on one of the coaching courses that Scaloni attended in 2017. That's a really nice fact. You know, so they know each other. And yeah, so there's a fascinating thing there. I mean, Luis De La Fuente, for, you know, how old he is, he looks magnificent. He dresses well. Yeah, he is like old man hard, if you see what I mean. He dresses well. He's very nice in tailor suits. Yeah. Seem to fit him pretty well. But I mean, again, though, He was a similar appointment of 65 years old.

41:33Luke Moore: A similar appointment to Scaloni. Yes, exactly. And if I may, in some part, it was not too dissimilar to when Southgate came, England manager. It's absolutely similar. Right, obviously they've had the success. But here you have two coaches who have come through the system. And Della Fuente gets the Spain job in the sort of twilight of his career, you would say. But both of them, again, with sides who have been successful but also have underachieved in recent tournaments as well. And I wonder if this is where international football is going in terms of coaching. We talked about this when Tuchel got the job.

42:09My take then and my take still now really is that it feels like the most successful coaches in the World Cup look like they're... I mean, you could even say recent tournaments really because they're left one to end the Euros. they look like coaches that are almost produced within that international set up environment I wonder whether I felt like England should have taken what Southgate did tried to replicate it tried to take all the learnings from it and bring someone through behind me

42:43Luke Moore: well Lee Carsley was the man who got it for a bit give Pep the under 18s but that's the thing I wonder whether going after Pep or going after Tuchel or whatever it's like missing the point Yeah, which is why when... Because it's such a different job. You don't get so much time with it. And these guys, Dele Fuente, Scaloni and Southgate. And I'm not putting Southgate in that bracket because I think he's won, because he hasn't won things that these guys have won. But it's the same energy. You're right to say that. And I think what they're really good at doing, clearly, is maximising what they get out of the players in the short amount of time they have.

43:15It's a completely different way of working. And if you take a coach, a top manager, and transplant them into the international game, you know the way football is now because the way club football is now there's so much club football it doesn't seem to work it's just too different so to me it feels like this is the way to do it and I don't think it's a coincidence that these two are in the final together do you not think that kind of because the money's not there it's less attractive to you know top class managers and in a situation like England I hate to bring it back to England but England's probably the most tantalising most quality rich squad that could win the World Cup.

43:52And it's a holy grail. It's a holy grail for a lot of people. So I think it's quite a tantalising football job, more than money job. I know it is,

44:00Luke Moore: which is why even Capello wanted it back in the day. But it's both. And Guardiola was really tempted with it. But it's both, because at England, they do pay a lot of money. They're not going to pay. So Guardiola, I don't think they could get to what Guardiola was getting at Man City. There might be some other reasons for that we can't go into. But we can guess. Yeah, but not as a guess. But yes, the game tonight. I mean, I think Spain are favourites. That'll suit Argentina. I did want to give two shiny shites who's favourites and who's not. We know how they're going to kind of set up. I mean, really, I'm sorry to do this, everybody.

44:33England, you know, such a regret.

44:35Luke Moore: England had the tools to win that game. Now, even if, you know, Tuchel had made the subs that we wanted and so on and so forth, it is possible England don't win that game. But the fact is, the way England applied themselves... But what about the game tonight? No, no, no, but the way England applied themselves for 55 minutes suggested that they could have done something. Spain are a better team than England. Yes. So we saw what Spain did to France in that semifinal, which was a masterclass, really, I would go as far to say. Not the most scintillating of performances. That's not a criticism. That's just, you know, hey, not everybody can score six goals in a match in a World Cup Finals.

45:10Luke Moore: No. But with Spain, if they need to staffle the opposition, we know they can do it. if they need to play, you know, you drop into that sort of zonal formation where you just give the opposition nothing, no space to run, no space to breathe. They are tactically brilliant at doing that. Mbappe, have you ever seen Mbappe, particularly at this tournament, so blunt? So like a man just looking around going, I'm in a cage and I cannot get out of it. And so if they're doing, if they've done that to Mbappe and Elisa and so on, they, you know, you would think they'd be able to do that to Messi. Messi is an incredibly intelligent footballer.

45:46Luke Moore: So Messi will have to be at his very, very best. And he won't be handed the initiative that he was handed, that England gave him. So I do think Spain will win this game, but Spain have to be incredibly wary and they would have watched that England game back and thought, yeah, we cannot give these a sniff because if they turn it into that emotional kind of game or whatever, then Argentina will try and bombard them. But Spain, again, the gaps Argentina would leave, if Spain were to go ahead, the gaps Argentina would leave at the back, Spain would capitalise in a way England should have done. Spain run harder and they do work harder than Argentina.

46:24That's what all of the stats say. And they're a little bit bigger in the box, a little bit taller, which may be important. Probably not, actually, because they're whipping in quite low mid-range balls, weren't they, that we couldn't really reach. but you do get the sense that this is the day for Luminium Alta to sort of turn up and do some more That'll be interesting And I'll tell you what

46:46Luke Moore: with Rodder in the centre of the pitch he won't be having any of the crap that's going on there Well that was the thing I was going to ask you about I was going to talk about that So to me it comes down to Spain will try to handcuff Argentina and it depends if Argentina can break out of it or not and I wouldn't be surprised if Argentina go about it like they did against England in the first half Just try and do everything they can to not Spain off their rhythm Now I think Spain's rhythm and their system is much stronger than England's but England did deal with that pretty well in the first half.

47:11If Spain can weather that, and then like you say, not hand them the initiative and stay confident, they can take the game away from Argentina because they're much better. But if Argentina can essentially manufacture like flashpoints, big controversial incidents, be that pantomime villain role they perform so well, get under Spain's skin, we don't know how Spain's going to react because just simply because they haven't really had to deal with that yet. And I think you're right to say that stuff about how Spain shackled Elisa and Mbappe and all France's best weapons. But the challenge is different, I think.

47:41I think it's a very different challenge. I think if you look at someone like Simeone against England, playing right on the edge, right on the edge. I thought the referee did a pretty good job in the semi-final overall, but he wasn't strong on someone like Simeone. And if Simeone can get in the head of a Cucurea or a Porro, who are quite combustible characters, it might be able to swing the dial in their favour. But ultimately, it is down to... It's quite an intriguing final, because it's down to a combination of an amazing system, a system we feel like might be impregnable based on what we've seen.

48:18And if they win easily tonight, then it will be that, against agents of chaos who are just going to try and cause problems all over the pitch and then capitalise. Who are more clinical in Spain. They've scored more goals from lower positions than them. They just take their chances a lot better and they have scored more goals than Spain. Argentina think it's their destiny to win it. 100%. Yeah, they will do. And Spain will be calm heads, head in the freezer, and then we'll see which wins out.

48:44Luke Moore: Yeah, indeed. And whoever wins, of course, they'll get themselves some championship rings. Yeah. Ooh. Yes, FIFA have introduced this because it's an American sporting tradition. Yes, of course. And they've brought into you. Super Bowl rings and stuff. Yeah, you get that sort of championship ring. I know in the Super Bowl they are tailored to the winning team more, whereas these are a bit more generic. Right. Which I think is slight shame, but there we are. but FIFA have made 2 ,026 rings. Oh, because they're going to sell some, obviously. Fucking hell. Now, obviously, that number... Let's get one.

49:16Luke Moore: 30 rings will go to the winning team. The other 1 ,996 will be made available for fans worldwide to purchase. Which is bullshit. It completely undermines the whole point of doing it. Indeed, it does, Luke. Yeah, it's like, oh, this is a really special thing we've done, especially, we've made 2 ,000 of them, so any fucking idiot with money can buy one. Why do you think somebody would be an idiot if they spent 112 grand on a championship? Is that how much they are? You're joking. Oh my God. How are they selling that? How are they selling that? How are they selling that? We'd have to sell all of our camera equipment 15 times.

49:48Let's do it. They surely aren't going to get people to pay that, are they? 112 grand. Who's paying that? What are they made of? In Kryptonite. They're going to have a fucking lock up. Follow those bastards. And I bet they say they're like gold or something. As soon as you get that in the back. If Le Moulin y 'all is getting bathed by Messi, next time it goes green. This smells of the Trump family to me. It does! This smells badly of the Trump family. My goodness me. Do you know what is so interesting? Is that like, that is, people who are kind of averse to American culture don't really like it.

50:20I get why you would recall it this. But actually, the World Cup final is being held in America. As you said, it's a traditional thing to dish out rings for championship teams. You take on her stuff. If you're giving Messi a bish't in Qatar, we all enjoy it. I'd much rather have the ring. We all enjoy the Vuvuzelas in South Africa. I think the winning team getting the rings is great. Did the winners get a Vuvuzela? Right up the bum.

50:46Luke Moore: I kind of like that, but when you say they're on sale, you'll piss right off. It's just nonsense. Absolute nonsense. They keep coming up with very innovative ways to cheapen the whole thing, don't they? They do, yeah. Over and over again. They do. if Messi and co win does he get to recreate that photo with Lamin-Yemal Lamin-Yemal a bath bathing him going yeah that's it little one I think it's an angle for Lamin-Yemal Lamin-Yemal he can go up the referee and go he touched me he touched me in the bath send him off send him off not the referee's remit he's not got the resources to investigate such a crime has he anyway enjoy the game tonight enjoy the game tonight Nor should he.

51:30Nor should he. Little prediction from you guys. I think Spain will win. In normal time?

51:36Luke Moore: I think Spain will win 2-1. In normal time? Yeah, hopefully. Just get this World Cup done now. I think Argentina are going to have a smash and grab in extra time. I think that Argentina might find a way. Yeah, I mean, as I say. But I kind of want to see your Miles brother dancing again. Oh, yeah. He's such a little dude. He is, yeah. Yeah, I can see it all. I can see it all. And we will see it all. It's the walk-up final, man. You've got to enjoy whatever happens. You've got to enjoy it. Put all your rings on. Put all your costumes on. Listen, I would love to see Argentina totally embarrassed.

52:11Yeah. But I don't think it's going to happen.

52:13Luke Moore: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Luke and I got rings when we got married. We did, actually, yeah. And then we let anybody came to the marriage. Buy one. No, they had to buy one on the way out. Yeah. It was a lovely service. Thank you, yeah. It's beautiful. Thanks for being the celebrant, man. Thanks for being the celebrant. And you're taking back Sunday battle there. We appreciate it. Not only do you get a ring, you get a kiss. There we are. Thanks for... Don't say, didn't you leave Marcus's wedding early? He did, yeah. I didn't. I went home. No, he did. I didn't leave early. What time, roughly? 9, 9.30? Yeah.

52:46Luke Moore: Finished at 11. Caught in the street, picking up some milk. I thought you said you had to go to court. No, all right. This is what happened. No, here we go. Because you know it's true. I said, I went home. You left because you were going to some, it was a 40th birthday party. And then there was a few people, some of my mates after the party. Your sister dropped me in. My sister and some of my mates, some of her mates, they went to central London after to just kind of carry on. Because unfortunately the church, you kind of have it, the curfew was 11 for around there. They went to Soho and saw you standing in a doorway drinking a milkshake.

53:22Luke Moore: It's not a beer, is it? Peter, do you deny that charge? Well, that definitely happened, but like, I can drink a milkshake after a wedding, no? That doesn't mean I'm off out fucking tripping the light fantastic with friends and, you know, loved ones, am I? I'm drinking a milkshake in the street. If I may, it may well be, and I'm not involved in this, although I did get you, you get pissed off because I said you were dressed like a provincial hypnotist to some people who didn't know. But I'm not involved in this. Can you see why Marcus might find it on one level offensive that you'd rather stand in a random Soho doorway drinking a milkshake?

53:55milkshake rather than beating your friend's wedding. That was my front door. I was outside my own front door. I think that's allowed.

54:01Luke Moore: Yeah, yeah. My rented home. Yeah, you're not the freeholder, right? So, Peter, that's why Marcus was a bit upset about it. I'm not sick for fair, you know me. I didn't know. I got the news back and I just thought, yeah. He finished the night doing what he loves doing most. Exactly. Celebrating a beautiful union of two people. You did go to a 40th. By having a fucking fridge. You did have a, you did have, we went to a 40th that night, didn't you? I can't remember the 40th at all. I'm fairly sorry. I just went home and had a milkshake. If anything, that was your out, really. Guess who stayed to the end?

54:28This guy. Do you know why? The provinces. Do you know why? Respect. Respect for a beautiful union. Respect and a pre-booked Uber. Thank you very much.

54:37Luke Moore: Thank you for listening to the Football Round, the part of the Ecclescrated Network. We'll be back tomorrow with Jim to react. I'm excited for it. World Cup final. World Cup final. Blimey, O 'Reilly. How many have we got left? I don't know. So I say. Do you want to do a Google Translate of easy for whoever wins? because it'll be Spanish. Facil. Facil. Oh, yeah, of course it is. Yeah, okay. We'll do one of those tomorrow. Facil. Yeah, we'll do one of those tomorrow. Facil. Lovely. Right, there we are. Thanks, Luke Moore. Cheers. Thank you, Pete Donaldson. Do it for me, Le. And no thank you. Have a good day.

55:06Do it for me, Le.

55:07Luke Moore: Yeah. Ha! He looks like me, Dad. I can't help but love him.

55:17The Football Ramble is a Stack production and part of the ACAST Creator Network.

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