Introducing: On The Continent

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1:09Dotun Adebayo: That's O-L-L-Y dot com. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Hello, hello. This is Brooke DeVard, host of the Naked Beauty Podcast. and I want to talk to you about Lexus. At Lexus, master craftsmen called Takumi are involved not just in physical craftsmanship, but in all of those sensory details. These masters evaluate things like how a door closes, the click of a switch, the acoustic feedback of controls. Instead of just instruments, Takumi craftsmen rely on human perception and intuition to create what sounds and feels right.

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3:03Andy Brassell: Hi, Pod fans. Max Rushton here from the chart-topping Guardian Football Weekly Podcast. Very much to crow. If you enjoyed the World Cup with us, you'll be glad to know we're back for the new Premier League season. Expect three episodes a week, questionable predictions, and the biggest stories in soccer from the Premier League to the Champions League and beyond. Watch now on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

3:48Dotun Adebayo: of great action going on outside the kingdom every single week. And that's where On the Continent comes in. Every week, Dotton Adebayo and your friend of mine, Andy Brassel, are joined by the best European football journalist to cover all the goings-on in Europe's major leagues. From France to Spain, Italy to Germany, they have you covered. Plus, they also offer fascinating insight into Turkey, Norway, the Netherlands, and so much more. Now, to give you a taster of what it is like, We've got the first two parts of today's episode available to listen to right now. And if you like what you hear, make sure to search for On The Continent in your podcast app and hit subscribe for more great content.

4:28Dotun Adebayo: Now, enjoy the show.

4:31Paulo Dybala: Welcome to On The Continent, your definitive guide to the week in European football. I'm Doton Adebayo. I'm Andy Brassel.

4:37Andy Brassell: And I'm Kevin Hatcher.

4:38Paulo Dybala: On this edition, the Bundesliga is back. We're talking the biggest questions in German football, including who's going to win the Ballon d 'Or? Also, Serie A has kicked off. Is this the season that the Romans' challenge for the Scudetto is rewarded? And are Fenerbahce back where they belong in the Champions League for the first time in nearly two decades?

5:07Paulo Dybala: Okay, let's kick off with talking about you going to Germany for what is really the curtain raiser for the German football season, the Super Cup at Dortmund.

5:18Kevin Hatchard: Yeah, that's right. And it's the perfect Super Cup situation, really, because obviously it's like any other Super Cup in Europe. You have cup winners versus league winners, unless you have double winners as they did in Germany last season with Bayern so you get first playing second and that means I think you get higher level of intensity because obviously on one hand you've got a team wanting to prove that they're ready to challenge and on the other hand you've got a champion wanting to send a message in the word of Harry Kane and that's what they did I think Bayern were really, really strong in the first half.

5:59Kevin Hatchard: They were leading 2-0. It could have been many more. Dortmund came back nicely in the second half and could easily have taken it to penalties because, of course, it goes straight from 90 minutes to penalties and didn't do that. So there was a little, I guess, a little sous-sauve, you know, there could be something in this season. But the main thing I took from it, not just from Harry Kane, was that Bayern are going to be incredibly difficult to knock off their perch. You know, I think if you're looking at the things that make for genuine competition in a Bundesliga season, and this is something I've discussed on the pod that we did out there, is you're going to need a team, Kev, to be virtually perfect.

6:45Yeah.

6:45Kevin Hatchard: And to have a below par Bayern. And the second part of that clause is simply not going to be fulfilled.

6:52Andy Brassell: Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I think that's the thing that shifted because you always thought Bayern hit a certain level and then you would need a team to come up and match that. But actually, Bayern have gone even beyond that now. So I think this is one of the best Bayern teams I've seen since I started covering the league, which is a long time ago, hence the grey hair. They have an incredible hunger to score goals. If they get three, they want four. or if they get four, they want five. They want to keep on going. And the other thing about them is that they all push each other. And they do it not in a kind of really anger-filled, competitive way like it used to be.

7:34Andy Brassell: It's very, very much a collective now. And I think all of that goes back to Van Son Kompany, actually, because we know he wasn't first choice. We know he wasn't second choice. We know he wasn't third choice. Bayern were quite open about that, actually. But what they've stumbled upon is an incredible solution because you've got a guy that tactically is very good and I think is improving all the time. He's a real motivator. And the thing with Bayern is it doesn't always have to be medals on the table. But I think Julian Nagel's man in difficult spells at Bayern couldn't do that. He couldn't say, well, here's what I've won.

8:10Andy Brassell: Here's what I've done as a player. Kompany can absolutely do that. And I think the fact that he's still quite young and he's pretty close in age to some of the senior players, I think really helps as well. So instead of it just being about, can Bayern be a little bit worse and can one team come out the pack and catch them, Bayern have moved so far ahead.

8:30Paulo Dybala: Incidentally, you can listen to more about Andy's Super Cup experience right now by clicking the OTC episode just below this one in your podcast app. And while you're there, make sure you've subscribed so that you never miss a show this European football season. so if none of the other teams can catch Bayern what are Bayern's ambitions then this season? Is it at Champions League?

8:54Kevin Hatchard: To win it all including the Champions League The thing is I think you can see with the way they've recruited or the way they haven't really recruited that much this season it's really hard to improve this team so you'd think okay well maybe they could do something with a fullback so they bring in Nathaniel Brown the Germany left back who had a great debut playing at centre forward for a lot of it actually. I mean, that's the thing, Kev. I think if I look at this Bayern team, and when I say there's not much that's improvable, like they brought in Brown and Saibari, and Saibari will be really useful for them as well.

9:28Kevin Hatchard: Of course, he was brilliant for Morocco at the World Cup. He had a great game against Bayern in the Champions League last season, which I think probably piqued their interest a little bit as well. Scored a fantastic goal in that game I was at. But it feels to me that they're just going to keep doing more of the same because they were so close in the Champions League last season. And apart from manage the game differently in the second leg against PSG, there's not really that much difference they can do. And I think you always have to respect, with a cup competition, which is what the Champions League is, even if for many teams it's the ultimate goal, you have to submit yourself to the fact that actually luck and how it goes on the night and all that sort of stuff is actually part of it.

10:12Kevin Hatchard: So if you're getting to the back end of the Champions League consistently, you are doing the right thing, and you've got to deal with the cards as they fall on the day, I think. I mean, Pep Guardiola, for example, you would not say, I mean, obviously there are some people outside Germany who might say this, who have a casual relationship with watching Bayern who might say this, but you would never say that Guardiola's spell at Bayern was a failure, even though he didn't win the Champions League, because they got to three semifinals in three years, So they put themselves in the spot where they could win it.

10:44Kevin Hatchard: Okay, I think you can say in the first year, he misjudged it badly tactically in both legs, actually, against Real Madrid. Second year, they had a ton of injuries in that semifinal against Barcelona. Third year, if they played that second leg against Atletico another 500 times, they'd probably win it 499. So I think what's the marker for this company team is that Guardiola team. Because actually, they're in a place... Forget actually, as you talked about before, the medals on the table. Whether Kompany actually gets the Champions League or not, I think that this Vincent Kompany team is genuinely a team that could be better than Guardiola's Bayern.

11:28Kevin Hatchard: And that is a big compliment, isn't it?

11:31Andy Brassell: See, the Guardiola thing is really relevant, I think, because that three-year spell, they were so dominant in the Bundesliga, but it was the football they played. It was the way that they changed not only how Bayern were perceived, but they changed how German football was perceived. There were clearly teams who adopted some of the things that Bayern were trying to do. I think some of the things with game management, some of the things with tactical flexibility stayed with Bayern in the years beyond that. I think the other thing as well is that when they were going through the coaching list of who they wanted to bring in, when they got to company, I think one of the things that really attracted them to him was that link with Guardiola because he'd been his captain and he knew that football and that they looked at Burnley in a totally different way to how other people looked at them.

12:19Andy Brassell: The narrative when he was hired was, oh, Burnley have just gone down. Why would you hire the guy that just took down Burnley? They weren't interested in that. They were interested in the season before in the championship because they were looking at, can you play dominant football with good players? Because if you can...

12:37Kevin Hatchard: With players that are better than everyone else's. That's the more relevant comparison, isn't it?

12:41Andy Brassell: Exactly that. So it's the championship they're looking at because they're saying, right, that's the football we want him to play here with a much better class of player. So he then goes there and I think there are echoes of Guardiola and I think that can't be underestimated, that impact of Guardiola and the three years he was there, even though, as Andy says, never got to a Champions League final. You're always going to judge Bayern, even though they always say the Bundesliga is really important, et cetera, et cetera. You're always going to judge them based on what they do in the Champions League.

13:10Andy Brassell: It's the same with PSG. You know, that is the be-all and end-all for me. And I agree with Andy. If they'd won it last season, the Champions League, nobody could have complained. The football they played, it was so paper thin, the margin between them and PSG in that semi-final. And I think they would have beaten Arsenal actually in the final. We'll never know now. but I don't think they're much different. I think they can be better. I think Brown's fascinating because full-back's so important in this company team. You look at what he's done with Conrad Leimer. He was a decent central midfielder.

13:45Andy Brassell: He's turned into this incredible player scampering down the half spaces and scoring goals, making goals. It's extraordinary.

13:52Kevin Hatchard: It's like the Bundesliga Scott McTominay, isn't it?

13:55Andy Brassell: Yes, there you go. What a go-up. yeah glow up is absolutely yeah to a big degree with limer as well so then you look at somebody like brown who's much more suited to the role from the get-go you know he's pacey the way he took his goal on saturday um in dortmund he will fit in beautifully and saibari is a glow up compared to nicholas jackson i think can cover multiple positions really good player company likes him I think they're going to be stronger than last season

14:27Paulo Dybala: isn't it that front three though the front three that perhaps illuminated by the performance that Michael Ulite had you know scoring one goal against Dortmund that front three with Harry Kane and Diaz there as well is what makes them that takes them over the line if they're going to be European championships there's that front three have got to stick together work together and succeed together

14:51Kevin Hatchard: yeah and I think it affects what we were talking about before the Guardiola comparison. I mean, the reason it popped into my head, as I was saying, it's the fact that you have Nene Brown popping up at centre forward, and it's like, you bought him as a fullback? What? And that's immediately the thing that makes you think, okay, it's this totally amorphous football machine. But also, I think you look at the other players. So, at least they can pick up the ball in the right back position, or on the halfway line, and we know he can accelerate past players, you know that's that's something that's a huge part of his game you look at Kane for a lot of the first half of this Super Cup game in Dortmund he's hanging out on the left hand side and Luis Diaz slips into the middle we've seen him play center forward very effectively Luis Diaz at Liverpool in Champions League games and then in the second half when they're under the pump a little bit more you have Kane making a last man challenge and shepherding it back to the goalkeeper I mean, obviously, he's showing off a little bit now.

15:48Kevin Hatchard: But still, I think the fact that the players are encouraged to be multifaceted, I think, is an expression of how good they are and how close they are to actually a Pep Guardiola team. Close to PSG, though?

16:02Paulo Dybala: How close are they to PSG?

16:04Andy Brassell: Yeah, pretty close, I would say. And I think that first leg, that 5-4, tells you that. I mean, it was one of the most incredible games I think any of us have ever seen. and it was two heavyweights going toe-to-toe for the whole 12 rounds. It was extraordinary. And then Bayern was slightly off it in that second leg. Olisse was targeted by PSG and had probably the worst game I've seen in play for Bayern. And so that being the case, Bayern would look at that and think, okay, if we meet PSG again in a semi-final or a final, what could we change? What can we do? And I think that's important because for me, company in the first season lots of good stuff didn't feel to me like potential Champions League winners because they had some bad defeats especially away from home they were stuffed by Feyenoord, they went to Villa and got punked, didn't play particularly well in a lot of away games and you thought he's built too much risk into the way he plays and he was quite smart and they went away and looked at that and thought right, there's got to be spells where we keep the ball there's got to be spells where we don't have the high line to a degree where people can get in really easily.

17:11Andy Brassell: And I think he's made those adjustments. I think he'll do that again over the course of this season.

17:17Paulo Dybala: What's made the difference for Harry Kane, though? You spoke to Harry Kane whilst you're out in Dortmund. And from what I understand, from what you've been telling us, he is Bayern Munich through and through and through now. And he wants to be the person who, or the team, part of the team that dominates not just German football, but indeed European football as well.

17:38Kevin Hatchard: Well, the Champions League was always important for him because to have the opportunity to compete in it and prove how good he is, I think is a massive deal to him. And to be in a team that's going to compete for it every season, I think is a massive deal for him as well. I mean, look, he talks later in that conversation about how he's in contract talks and I think he's pretty sure that he'll stay past this season because he can see how he can develop with this team as well. but when you say that he's become quite Bayern-ish I think he has because he just it's just pitiless he wants to win everything like everything it's like to have a player who turns up like that as a cast iron superstar really England captain but because of his club situation and I mean this with no disrespect to Tottenham but the facts are what they are he's hungry like so starving hungry when he comes through the door and now he doesn't want to stop eating.

18:36Kevin Hatchard: You know, he's really into it. And every trophy, including this, including the Super Cup, which doesn't really matter that much, like to him, it's still a really big deal to do it. And I think the fact that he's, it's not just that they're providing everything he wants on the field. They're making him feel very valued off it as well. So the club are having this massive push for him to win the Ballon d 'Or at the moment. I mean, it's kind of like, it's a bit like Real Madrid with Vinicius actually. Hopefully not if he doesn't win it on the other side. Hopefully they don't repeat that. But I think that the fact that he said in his words, I feel the love here, I think that's massively important as well.

19:16Paulo Dybala: And let's face it, Kev, he is German Footballer of the Year. That perhaps is no surprise. He's also the European Golden Shoe recipient because he scored more goals than anybody else. You're at the top. Would he be a surprise if he didn't win the Ballon d 'Or then for you?

19:34Andy Brassell: I think maybe because if you look at what happened with the World Cup, yes, there are guys like Rodri that stepped forwards. Laminia Mal had a decent tournament, but not maybe as sparkling as at the Euros a couple of years before. But I think you look at what Kane has done for club and country. It's extraordinary. 61 goals for Bayern in all competitions. Then he goes and gets a load of goals for England at the World Cup. he looks sharper at that world cup i thought than he has done at a tournament for england for a long time and buying helped him with that because he's a guy that never wants to miss a game right but they were able to rest him for first halves of games towards the end but of course buying a relentless ruthless so you can't let him have the whole game off so they started bringing on kane and release a for second halves against defenders yeah and it seems like this is not fair this is not what's supposed to happen um i think andy's absolutely right about the way byan have treated him and the way he's responded to it if you go right back to the start when he first arrives by and see it as a real coup to get the england captain thomas tuchel was falling over himself to be enthusiastic about kane and i think that was genuine i don't think that was false but it really helped because they had a super cup game where they lost three nil to leipzig that was the first game he was there for and he said i apologize to harry afterwards because it looks like we haven't trained and done nothing in pre-season so he was kind of saying that kane was slightly above and kind of outside from there this is the star we've brought in to take us to the next level it's absolutely worked he's been phenomenal for them they've been phenomenal for him he's finally got that platform to show what he's all about for me if it was down to me it isn't but if it was uh him or kvarrat salia for me i think your choice is do you go for a guy who's been mega consistent won the double scored in big games or do you go for the guy who was the best player in

21:35Kevin Hatchard: the champions league last season it's the numbers argument with kane really isn't it yeah and that's that's the argument that biner making which funnily enough frames him in the sort of ballon door light that we've had over the last 15 years it puts him in that messi ronaldo bracket which people were reluctant to put him in. But by saying it's about the numbers, that's what buying are doing.

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23:51Dotun Adebayo: This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Hey, I've got the campaign brief ready, built from last quarter's data and the competitive landscape. Approved? Oh, agents, where would we be without you?

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24:36Paulo Dybala: Bayern, of course, do have some other contenders for the title. once upon a time Dortmund would have been one of those contenders wouldn't they and I suppose over the course of time they've been seen as a club that knows how to bring through young players and then sell them on I wonder whether that is still their thinking nowadays if they think that like you both seem to think that Bayern are a step ahead of everybody else in the Bundesliga

25:03Kevin Hatchard: then what's Dortmund's ambition well they need to build in the right way so I don't think challenging for the title. I think they'll finish second, but I don't think challenging for the title this season is realistic. But what they've done very well is that they've realised, I think, a lot of what they've done wrong recruitment-wise in recent seasons. So they've shed a lot of high earners, which I think is very important. Players that were sort of win-now players or had become win-now players like Nikola Sula, Julian Brandt, who were on absolutely enormous salaries. Karam Adeyemi who was a young star that was meant to work out and could never find that consistency.

25:44Kevin Hatchard: When you look at the big signings, Caretas, still a teenager, Constantelias who was brilliant in the second half of the Super Cup when he came on, 23. But Joe Vierman's the only one over 23 that they've signed from PSV. And I think there are two parts to this. Firstly, because Niko Kovac who they're sticking with as a coach and I think they're right to stick with him, wants to play in a quite athletic way. He's quite physically demanding. It makes sense to have younger players. But also, if we're talking about brand Dortmund and the way to build towards something, but both in a commercial sense, in an identity sense, and in a footballing sense, making the team younger is just, it's what had to be done, isn't it?

26:29Andy Brassell: Yeah, and it's what Ola Book, the new sporting director, is all about. He's about having that imagination. he's about bringing in guys that you might not necessarily have thought of and constant daily is a great example of that because he's somebody that stuttgart might have signed a year before but the ultras of pauk were so against it that everybody stepped back a little bit but he looked as though he was going to go to stuttgart the year before karetsas i think is a great signing i think he's gonna be really really exciting and exciting is the key word kovac by nature as a coach is not an exciting guy he's not you know he's engaging but he's not Klopp and that's a big problem as I think Liverpool are going to find in the next few years once Klopp's been at a club that looms over the club for quite some time because there's always going to be a section of fans that say yeah but he's not Jürgen and the football's not what Jürgen would play and that is always going to be there so they made quite a kind of emotional decision to bring Nuri Shaheen in which was a nonsense really because no other major club would have necessarily done that but because Shaheen had been a player under Klopp because he had those Dortmund connections everybody kind of forgot all of the doubts and went yeah this will work it cost them time it cost them time and they just went in completely the wrong direction I think Kovac has come in to steady the ship and has done it wonderfully really has because the season he came in they weren't going to make the Champions League they only made it on the final day and that was largely down to him and then he built upon that they had the best defense in the league last season so they're getting there slowly but Bayern are moving more quickly and that's going to happen because they they've got more resource you know they've already got that base of players so it's really difficult but I think the key now is you've built the stage let's find some actors and I think

28:27Paulo Dybala: they've done that now what about Leverkusen because um I wonder if they suffer slightly from the post Xabi Alonso effect because definitely they had that great season but they seem to have fallen

28:40Kevin Hatchard: by the wayside slightly so that lifted expectations to a degree but I think the good thing about Leverkusen is they understood what they were as a club if we're talking about what a club's identity is about and knowing your place actually for want of a better phrase. They never started thinking, right, we're going to compete with Bayern every season. But what they did last season, they went through such an immense amount of change. And I think Simon Rolfes, the sporting director, would say, like, he would quite honestly say, we made mistakes during that. So they sold nearly 300 million euros worth of players.

29:15Kevin Hatchard: But they appointed the wrong coach initially in Eric Ten Hag. They appointed someone in Casper-Hilmante. Yeah, could have more or less could have got them there, but the performances in the second half of the season, so the first half of 2026 were really below par. I think you do have to look at it in the context of how much changed. But I spoke to Simon Rolfes after their friendly in Newcastle, like a couple of weeks ago, and he was saying, yeah, this summer's just been a lot more calm. We've been able to take a breath. I think part of that is appointing Carlos Martinez as coach nice and early.

29:50Kevin Hatchard: Again, not a name coach, but I think probably the right coach for the type of football that they want to play. And you talked about Vincent Kompany coming in and getting a much better squad than he had before. Martinez has got better players than he had at Toulouse by a mile. And he did well there. He won the Cups. There were some good performances in Europe. and they'll miss him. They've replaced him well, but they'll miss him. And I just think they're still ambitious. You look at them bringing back Moussa Diaby, for example. Of course, they've lost Alex Grimaldo this summer, which is a bit of a blow.

30:30Kevin Hatchard: But I think we have a better handle on what Leverkusen actually are this season. Whereas last season, it was a ton of talented players, but what they were doing as a team, It was so far off what they were under Alonso because they had different stages of identity, but they definitely had no identity.

30:50Andy Brassell: Yeah, and I think that was always going to happen because you lose an incredible coach that achieved something nobody saw coming. I mean, there's not one person who works in German football that would have said to you, oh yeah, Leverkusen are going to do an unbeaten league and cup double this season. No way. It kind of unfolded as well. Over the course of the season, you thought, oh, they've started well. I wonder when that's going to fall apart. Oh, we're in March. They might actually do this. But because it was such an extraordinary event, the one positive thing it did do, apart from obviously the successes themselves, if you look more globally at Leverkusen, what it did was it removed this never-kusen tag.

31:31Andy Brassell: It removed this idea that they were nearly men. They were losers. They were never going to actually achieve anything. So they did. and so that I think has made them more attractive but the truth is what they always were from when I started covering the league is they were a team that wanted to qualify for the Champions League if they could do that

31:52Kevin Hatchard: a team that could but maybe not should yeah sort of between the two spots really

31:59Andy Brassell: there were years where they were battling Gladbach you looked at the league and you thought right well it's going to be them or Gladbach that will get that fourth spot and that's kind of where they were at you didn't expect them to get anywhere near the league even though they had a few second place finishes they were very rarely in that title race so now there is increased expectation but i do think there's realism i know a fair few levy kus and fans and they don't really think that they can be going toe-to-toe with bayan all the time but i think they want to see good football they want to see a plan and i think they accept that they're going to be like dortmund like leipzig probably going to be shining up kind of raw talents and then selling them on.

32:39Andy Brassell: And that's just the reality financially of where the league is at. So I'm kind of fascinated by where they'll be at. We've had a few kind of returns to the league and Kunku's back at Leipzig. Diaby's back at Leverkusen.

32:52Kevin Hatchard: But can I just ask you, Kev, do you think this is a good idea? Because for me, I'm more positive about Diaby than I am about Kunku, I would say. how dare you how dare you you'd be upset by that but like I just think like the Nkunku signing is it's not a Leipzig signing like he's not played well for a couple of years I know the ability's there I know he's great the first time he's 29 in November but like to me that is quite contrary to what they want to do and I think you can almost look at Dortmund if we're talking about teams that want to challenge or like at least inconvenience by over the medium term you've got to take the Dortmund approach.

33:33Kevin Hatchard: I think you've got to build steadily and say, okay, we're not going to do it this season, but let's develop these guys. Once you're getting to the point when you're getting win-now players, when you're not in a win-now situation, to me that feels like a mistake.

33:48Andy Brassell: I think we'd like to kind of tiptoe into Leipzig quickly. I think that's a pragmatic signing that kind of came up. It's an easy win for the fans because, you know, the truth is they've not had a couple of great seasons. Obviously, they missed out on Europe altogether a couple of seasons ago. Then Olivena came in and clearly there was a split whether they wanted to keep him or not. And so they haven't had a lot of good news stories at Leipzig. They loved Nkunku when he was there. And I still think, despite the injuries at Chelsea, despite the inertia at Milan, I still think there's a good player there.

34:27Andy Brassell: What you also do need, if you're going to bring these kids through, is you need guys they can look to and learn from. And I think he is that. I think he's somebody that can play multiple positions. They're going to be in the Champions League. They're going to need that. They're going to need that strength in depth. So I'm sold on that. I think that can work at least in the short term. And he won't block too many players. They'll still have young players they can develop. With Leverkusen, Diaby's perfect for that league. and we saw that because it's a transitional league you get loads of space on the counter more than you should really and a player like him with pace directness I think you'll love it

35:06Paulo Dybala: Can we say something very quickly about Schalke on the other end of the scale of the Bundesliga they've just been promoted Investing in young talent like Edin Dzeko Well at 40 years old you know he's flying the flag for us all time so don't knock him on this program No way No way But have they prepared for the Bundesliga that they're going to be having to battle in? Have they prepared well enough? How do you do that?

35:30Andy Brassell: As best they can. I think what they've done that's quite interesting is they've brought in some fixer-uppers. So guys like Junior Adamu, who did brilliantly at Salzburg, went to Freiburg, didn't really happen for him. So we'll see how he does. He's had some injuries. Junior Dina Rabimbe, who I think is a talented player, but I think has lacked maturity, has annoyed coaches at times. And I think he needs to be a bit more disciplined that if he can be, there's a good player in there. I saw him once score a couple of goals against Bayern in a win. He can be a really good player. And they haven't had a huge amount of money to spend.

36:05Andy Brassell: And I think that's the thing to remember about teams like Schalke, Hamburg, Werder Bremen. They're big names, but they've had financial problems in the past. And they're now paying the price for that. So you have to be imaginative and you do have to be careful. And I think Miro Muslic, who was at Plymouth, has done a super job. He's made some big calls when he's needed to, both tactically and in terms of personnel. They've got some experience in there. It really could go one of two ways because I've covered some horrible Schalke seasons where once it starts going badly, it really starts going badly and it can get quite toxic.

36:43Andy Brassell: So I think there has to be an element of patience with them. You look at what Hamburg did last season. They had a nice mix of the guys that took them up, some really smart signings like Fabio Vieira who came on a loan from Arsenal did a brilliant job that's what you need a bit of imagination in the market and just try to make the most of your home games that's what Hamburg did really well last season you've got to use those fans as a weapon

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39:27Paulo Dybala: in Serie A it's also similarly a race against a very top team that is always seems to be a contender for the Champions League in Inter Milan but believe it or not this is also a tale this season of two Romans and one of well both of those Romans and an excellent night Monday night didn't they both of them perhaps Roma more impressively than um Lazio you could say I think that's fair

39:57Kevin Hatchard: to say look I think Roma Fiorentina was one of the matches of the weekend anywhere over Europe I think especially because we expected Fiorentina to come correct now obviously they've got the Moisey Ken situation that they're dealing with at the moment in that he wants to go to Como he didn't start the game I'm not sure it would have made a massive difference in the end because Roma were brilliant won 4-0 and obviously the most eye-catching thing for a lot of people was at Daniel Marlon's hat-trick the even more eye-catching thing was that all three of them where Paolo Dybala assists. Now, we'll come to that in a minute because once we start talking about Dybala, we're not going to stop.

40:42Kevin Hatchard: But I just think this was a really good moment for Gasparini and for Roma because they've had a really frustrating summer trying to get deals over the line. Of course, they rather unexpectedly qualified for the Champions League on the home straight. They've not got a bottomless pit of money, which has been very clear by the fact they've got a gazump left and right for players all this summer. And it has been frustrating for Gasparini. I mean, he's done what he did a lot in his debut season at Roma as well, sort of made public cries for help in terms of, we really need to get some deals over the line now.

41:17Kevin Hatchard: They did eventually get Rodrigo Moura, the young Portuguese playmaker from Porto, who I think will have a great time there because here is a very, very technically gifted player who's looked like he could really hit the next level ever since he came through at Porto, but has been playing for a coach in Francesco Faglioli who wants to play quite pragmatic football. So the fact that they've banked, Porto have banked as much money as they can for Moura and brought in Seca Fofana, who was brilliant for them last season on loan, but is the sort of attacking midfielder who rather than having a paintbrush in his hand looks like he eats raw meat, I think is better for Porto and it's better for Moura because he'll play under a coach who wants to play nice football.

42:07Kevin Hatchard: Now, I think a lot of what Roma did last season, Kev, was sort of a very, very gradual transition from what they were under Ranieri. And I think a lot of the first half of last season, especially when they were just winning games 1-0 and not conceding goals, you're thinking, okay, this is not Gasparini football at all. but I think really he's done it quite smartly he's adapted to the squad that he's got and now I think even without the players changing as much as he would like we're starting to see that more expressive football albeit on a quite small sample size yeah if you look at the early weeks of last

42:44Andy Brassell: season they were winning games 1-0 and keeping clean sheets and we were this isn't a Gasparini team what is this but I think you're right he won all the battles he needed to win in the sense that that big battle with Ranieri, he came out on top. And now he's got Tony D 'Amico back there who worked with Atalanta. He's the sporting director. I think that's really important. So even though there were frustrations in the market, you know they're on the same page. They're not getting the players they want all the time, but they're rowing in the same way. So that's important. The football's getting better.

43:15Andy Brassell: That's really important. And I go back to his Atalanta teams that would score goals left, right, and center. You had guys like Ilicic, and you had Papu Gomez, and you had those players, wonderful players who he improved. I look at the raw material he's got potentially, like if Dybala stays fit, Moura, who we've talked about, who I love, I think he's a really, really good player. Marlon's having one of the best hot streaks I've ever seen him have. He will continue to be a streaky player, I'm sure of that. But at the moment, he's playing incredibly.

43:45Kevin Hatchard: But will he? Because I don't know, I just think the way that Gasparini sees him, he's just made him the main guy in a way that he never has been anywhere else. And he's through the middle, isn't he? Rather than stuck out wide. He's like, you're going to be my centre forward. And I think that is a big deal. But I tell you what, it does help as a centre forward when you've got Dybala sat just behind you. And from the very first game they played, because when Kev was talking about that hot streak for Marlon, you know, he's absolutely right. And it starts last season. It's almost a goal a game since he's arrived in Serie A.

44:17Paulo Dybala: 17-19?

44:18Kevin Hatchard: team yeah and it's an incredible effort but i think if you go back to the very first game they play together when you go back to the start of this year and they're away at torino and at that point like roma way off champions league contention really you know that not only are they behind the eight ball they don't look good enough to get there and then marlon comes in and him and dibala click straight away. Dybala sets him up for a goal, gets disallowed. So they go, all right, we'll go back and we'll do it again. Dybala sets him up for another goal that does count. Marlon scores another goal later in the game.

44:55Kevin Hatchard: They'll win 2-0, both of his goals. And from that point, the pair of them have just been whoosh. And we know Dybala's had these struggles to stay fit. And, you know, he is basically made of glass. Or we probably would have seen him in the Premier League by now. but I just think if they can find a way to physically manage Dybala and he's really important in the running last season as well when they did make Champions League and the fact that he didn't go to the World Cup the fact that he's had a full pre-season the fact that Gasparini like knows exactly how it works and you talked about him being able to like squeeze a little bit more out of out of veteran players look he loves this club so much the fans love him he's been able to go and make a ton of money either this summer or last summer.

45:46Kevin Hatchard: And he signed an extension at Roma this season for approximately 70 % pay cut. Now, I think his wife might like living in Rome. I think that's pretty clear. But on the other hand...

45:58Paulo Dybala: It was Saudi Arabia that would have offered him the money. Yes. Maybe she didn't like going to Saudi Arabia.

46:03Kevin Hatchard: But I think the whole point with Dybala and his family, they've been embraced by Rome since the minute he arrives. The best bit of footage of Dybala in Roma, and obviously this is a bit of a bold choice because he's done some great stuff on the pitch, but it's off the pitch, is when he arrives and they present him in the centre of Rome. He's got all the fans in front of him. But he comes out and he waves. He's got the shirt on, the pair of jeans or whatever. He comes out and waves. and then he sits down on the stone steps and he's like god this is huge you know i've just come from juventus a club that basically didn't want me anymore and these fans are treating me like i'm i'm so important he's been made to feel important the whole way we talked in the first section about for all that harry kane's done on the pitch and everything that they've done right tactically to make him fit in sometimes like players just need to feel loved they need to feel as if they're valued as as as people as well as just football isn't he's felt that since day one

47:13Paulo Dybala: like i think that's hugely important we have talked about paolo dubala since time immemorial it feels like here on otc there's no need to stop let's keep going we will do because clearly what we saw uh on monday from dibala was scintillating and his coach has already said about him and this is gaspreen is saying that he's at the peak of his physical and technical maturity are you convinced given as blondie would sing uh dibala's got a heart no ankle of glass i think i'm always convinced

47:47Andy Brassell: when he's on the pitch is just how often can we get him on the pitch is the question but actually you look at his whole career, he's won a hell of a lot. You know, he won a lot with Juventus. He's played in a World Cup final, which Argentina won. You know, he has had a hugely successful career. But in between all of that, he's also given us plenty of magical moments. He's a wonderful footballer. So I think a little bit sometimes like the way people talk about Mario Goetze and his time at Bayern, for example, they'll say, oh yeah, that was a bust. That didn't work at all and it's like we still won a lot and he played some really good games in there and it was only really the third season when he got a load of injuries but some of the goals he scored were magnificent some of the performances he produced so I think sometimes we get an idea in our heads about what a player's availability is and how injury prone they are and look there's no getting away from it he's had loads of injury problems right but actually he still had a very very good career and if they can keep him fit he could be huge for them Roma doing well is great for the league I think agreed because the passion that Andy's talked about that's there to harness and I think Gasparini in one season's done something Mourinho never did which was to get them into the Champions League that's huge and I think the style in which he's going to take them forward I think he's very very exciting I just wonder if that's where the real trick with

49:18Kevin Hatchard: Rodrigo Moura is. Basically, you're getting this teenager to go to Dybala finishing school. I mean, they're not exactly the same sort of player, but Moura could do a similar job to him in time. I mean, he's an enormous talent. And to be able to learn off him and take some of the pressure off him physically, but what Moura wants to do is play. Like I said, he was kept on the periphery things of Porto. It's like, yeah, let the big lads handle this. You know, the ones that that have been doing weights and all the rest of it. And now he's off the leash, he's gonna be playing Champions League football in front of a stadium of 65 ,000 people that's gonna be full all the time.

50:01Kevin Hatchard: What an opportunity. And to just have, just watch Dybala in training and play games with him. And when Dybala is not gonna play like 50 games this season, when he needs to take a breather, then Moura's like, okay, you're Paolo for the day.

50:17Andy Brassell: that's massive, I think, because, and, you know, keep tying it to the Bundesliga, but you go back to Harry Kane, who we've talked about a fair bit. Lennart Karl, who's one of the young guys coming through at Bayern, talks about Kane. He says, stays after training, does extra shooting practice, said, I've never seen anybody hit a ball the way he hits it. And if you're Lennart Karl, what a gift to be able to watch a guy like that work, train, just be around the group. and Kane is happy to pass on those tips and pass on that advice. And so it's not just about the technical things which Maura will learn, but it's about how you carry yourself and how you kind of use that experience.

50:58Andy Brassell: And the fact that Dybala has taken this big pay cut to stay at Roma, that will have an influence and an impact as well. So I think you're right. I think what a great teacher for Maura to have.

51:11Paulo Dybala: Yeah, and this quote from Gasparina again about Maura, but underlines Andy's point because Gasparini says of him every time he touches the ball something beautiful happens. You could have said that about Dybala if you watched the game against Fiorentina. Every time he touched the ball something beautiful seemed to happen although every time somebody crashed into him you'd be like ahhh! Okay, we should say a word or two about Lazio as well the other Roman side that played on Monday night. Where are they at, Andy? Because they're far off the kind of Lazio that could be contenders for the Scudetto, I would have thought.

51:46Kevin Hatchard: Well, they're firmly strapped into the Rino Gattuso roller coaster. I think it's fair to say. They needed a result already because, of course, they lost a second-tier opposition in the Coppa Italia before the league season even started. And, you know, that's, again, going back to what you were saying, Kev, it's one of the, if we're making a Bundesliga comparison, because of the scheduling, if you're one of the teams who plays a cup game before the league game. You're under pressure before the first league game started if you lose the cup game. But obviously people had their doubts about Gattuso anyway.

52:23Kevin Hatchard: And one 1-0 win at Bologna is not going to change this. I mean, if we're talking about Gattuso's sides battling, he definitely got that because I thought Bologna were better than them. That's a defend for their lives. But they did keep the clean sheet and they have a midfielder now in Davide Fretesi, who we know can score goals in big games. You know, he burst into the penalty box and he scored the winner in this. And, you know, they've been fortunate to get him, I think it's fair to say, as Gattuso nodded at afterwards.

52:57Paulo Dybala: Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, I'm not used to quoting Italian coaches all over the place, but this quote is interesting, you know, Kev, because he says, it's not as though we have the right to have a player like Fratezi, a player of his caliber who, except coming from Inter to Lazio, with all due respect, can only be thanked. I mean, you can't be saying that as a coach, can you? Think of the Lazio fans, how are they going to respond to that?

53:21Andy Brassell: Not very well, I suspect. I thought that was a mad thing to say, but it's Cattuso. So we should expect this because he talks too much. He talks himself into trouble constantly. And I thought that was a very strange way to phrase it. you know to say we have a great player and we think he can be really influential for us brilliant but to say oh thank you thanks for coming from inter we really needed that i mean it's nonsense and well i don't know are the fans gonna like him less well i mean it's a low low bar isn't it really how low can you go but i just think we could choose i thought it was a crazy appointment and I do think Italian football does have that issue sometimes there's a lack of imagination in terms of the coaches that you hire we don't know how Allegri will do at Napoli for example but you look at how badly he blew up at Milan last season they didn't have any European football they were title contenders a few weeks out from the season they did not make the Champions League spots how do you then get the Napoli job after that?

54:28Andy Brassell: So, and look, I know he's got a great record overall but I found that startling. Gattuso getting this job I find startling and if it wasn't for Mandas, the goalkeeper they lose that game let alone, you know, draw it. So, yeah, I'm not convinced. I can't see him getting to the end of the season. Thank you for listening. Now, if you want to hear more of that just search for On The Continent

54:49Dotun Adebayo: in your podcast app and you'll be able to listen to the final part of today's episode. While you were there make sure to hit subscribe to keep up with future episodes. I'll be back tomorrow alongside Jim and Pete for The Preview Show. See you then.

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