Life after football (feat. Ben Mee)

0:14This episode of the Football Ramble is brought to you by the Train Others in Further Education campaign. Today, we've got someone very, very special joining us. This man has over 250 Premier League appearances under his belt, 20 career goals, and has been for the likes of Man City, Burnley, Brentford and Sheffield United. That's right. We're joined by the one, the only, Mr. Ben Mee.

0:36Jim Campbell: On the Football Ramble, we obviously spend a lot of time talking about footballers now. To us, they can often feel like something approaching mythical creatures. They're doing incredibly high profile and stressful jobs. Their career paths feel unattainable and as a result, at times, unrelatable. However, something that many of us can relate to is the career pivot. We've seen managers and players choose to make pivots in their careers so many times now, often with some incredible results. Jim, who's been your favourite in the annals of footballing history? So I think the obvious answer, and it's obvious because it's so spectacularly unusual, is Matthew Flamini, who is now the CEO of GF Biochemicals, which is a company that produces this particular acid that is apparently a form of green energy or very useful to that, which is quite amazing.

1:21Jim Campbell: Everyone thinks he's going to save the world. It would be weird if Matthew Flamini saved the world, but we live in weird times. Didn't see that one coming. No. I am slightly disappointed. They worked with the University of Pisa for seven years to produce it. And I think that should be called the learning tower of Pisa. But maybe that's just me. That's a good point, actually, yeah. Maybe he'll be on the board soon enough. He'll have a wing dedicated to him after his famous asset. I mean, I could go for two people because the career switch was something that happened a lot less back in the day. Certainly careers you'd hear about, I think.

1:55Stuart Ripley turning into a solicitor after he finished. the Blackburn winger who obviously won the league with Blackburn back in the 90s. He became a solicitor late on. I think he now left the solicitor kind of like law firm game and has now moved into basically teaching the law at universities and stuff, which is fantastic. You've got Arjen Dzu being a forensic police detective as well. Yeah. You know, a proper, not really a gumshoe, but obviously spends a lot of his time in labs looking at, I don't know, bullet projections and blood spatter and stuff like that. Fascinating.

2:32Jim Campbell: Yeah, it sounds like the pitch for a sort of TV show that you might see on Alibi or something imported onto one of those shows. But it's actually real, isn't it? And I think it's one of those things that sounds a bit more exciting than it probably is in reality. But I absolutely love that. So good. Yeah, me too. I mean, just because you've had a great success in one line of work, it doesn't mean you're not able to do the same in another. Keeping things fresh and putting all the skills you've picked up over the years to good use can be incredibly rewarding. Ascan helping to bring the next generation along as you share all the tips and tricks you learn the hard way with someone at the start of their journey.

3:06Jim Campbell: So in this episode, we're going to take a look at what it takes to re-energize that next step of your career and find a new path for your skills. Whether you're a Premier League legend, plumber, engineer, IT specialist, or anything in between. Or all of them. Or all of them. Or all of them at once. It's up to you, isn't it, what you do next? And we'll, of course, be asking Ben all the burning questions about his career that we've always wanted to put to him.

3:28Ben Mee, hello and welcome to Football Ramble. Hello, thank you for having me. I look forward to having a chat, having a conversation. Lovely Farron Ball paint behind you. I have to say, Ben, I'm very impressed with your set-up, sir, if you don't mind me saying it. It's quite new, actually. It's a new set-up. Well, very nice. Nice. Well, we're all about new horizons here on this show. Ben, first of all, you've only just, in the last few weeks, announced your retirement as a professional footballer. so how are you finding this first Ben Mee summer where you've got no responsibilities yeah well still responsibilities but yeah football wise football terms a lot more relaxing not having to worry about the upcoming pre-season that's going to unfold but yeah enjoying my bit of down time it's nice not to have to cram my summer holidays into a few weeks before having to go through a program as well after that before I actually go back into pre-season.

4:28So, yeah, a little bit of downtime, still keeping fit. But, yeah, a lot less sort of on the body and a lot more family time.

4:35Jim Campbell: It's on your own terms, isn't it, in this way? It must be nice. It must feel like when you broke up at the end of school in the summer when you were a kid. You've got that massive horizon of whatever you want in front of you. Yeah, exactly. On my own terms, feel good about it, feeling a very fortunate position to do that. You know, a lot of players sometimes, you know, forced to hand injuries and things like that. But yeah, be able to do it on my terms and yeah, excited for, like you say, the vast, you know, future that, you know, waits for me, I guess. Yeah, because players who play in your particular position, they, because just the rigours of being a centre-back, do spend a lot of time on the treatment table.

5:15But you've been relatively successful at staying away, you would say. You've had big injuries, but they've been quite short-lived and you've only ever sort of found yourself, you know, staring at the abyss of like, you know, 14 weeks off a few times. So like, I imagine this is very, very rare for you, just having a few weeks to collect your thoughts. Yeah, you're correct, absolutely. I've been very fortunate. I've had injuries like broken legs, but they kind of heal and I've been fortunate that they've healed. You know, muscle-wise, knee-wise, I've been very fortunate that nothing's really, you know, got me in that way.

5:52I had my first surgery at 34. So, you know, I lasted quite a long time. And that was a fracture. So that was a little operation in my bottom of my tibia. But yeah, you know, like I say, having that little bit of time now to rest the body. As I say, I'm still doing a little bit, but rest the body. But I've been fortunate to evade injuries and it's allowed me to, you know, look forward to still playing sports and doing things. and even my start-up skiing and things like that, actually things I've not been able to do throughout my career. So I'm looking forward to doing those types of things.

6:27Jim Campbell: Yeah, that must be a sort of exciting time because I suppose, certainly in the modern era, we all dream of being a footballer, but some of you are lucky enough to be able to do it. But I imagine that from the moment that you go into the game professionally, it's pretty non-stop and there probably isn't a huge amount of time to sort of take stock of what an amazing achievement it is. Now you get to sort of the end of your playing career and looking back on the clubs you played for where you've been really beloved figures, particularly at Burnley and Brentford and such a significant player for them.

6:57Jim Campbell: Is there a sense of sort of completion and of achievement? Is it a feeling of satisfaction to have actually, you know, managed to be the professional footballer that your younger self wanted to be? Yeah, it's a funny position to be in. I have that reflection, a little bit of time now to look back on it. I think I will do over the next couple of years just be able to pick little moments out, have a look back on it but you know from the age of nine all they ever wanted was to to be a footballer joined manchester city at that age in the academy all they ever wanted to do was you know get better keep improving year after year even you know beyond the 30s about growing about still still learning no matter what it was and i think that growth just trying to to get better and get get better even last year i wanted to to still get better you know in in different ways you know maybe not physically or, you know, but tactically and use my body as well as I can, using that experience that I've had throughout my career.

7:55I think, yeah, just, you know, all of a sudden it kind of stops and, you know, you've got to try and look forward to getting better at other things. You know, some people think football's all about winning, but winning or losing. But it's not. It's about improving. It's about getting better all the time and moving forward and progressing. my challenge now in the future is what can I progress in, you know, outside of football. And that's something I'm excited about. I'm looking forward to. How hard was it to come to the decision to call it a day this season, you know, as opposed to maybe do another season and then call it a day?

8:34Because like you say, you're an excellent nick for a central defender. Yeah, I said, since the age of nine, that's all I've known being a footballer. So it wasn't an easy decision. You know, it's something I've always wanted to do. but as we said earlier, it's been on my terms, which has made that decision a little bit easier. This past season was my one more. It was my one more. I thought at the end of my Brentford time, could that be the last one? I was 35, still playing in the Premier League and very fortunate and proud of that. And it was, do I do one more and try and play a little bit more and just get that little bit extra out of myself, which is what I wanted to do really but I felt like it was always going to be my last season and I made that decision sort of halfway through that season I was playing a lot I had another break, I broke my hand actually I had my second surgery which was my hand last season which is a bit annoying because it's going to be with me for a while but yeah that decision was made and I was content with it I was happy with it pleased with my career and curious and excited about the future and what lines ahead.

9:45What made you go for Sky Sports over the Football Ramble for the announcement? I guess they've been there for me a little bit. Done a few little bits as we're going to talk about. Oh yeah, I see. Future punditry. I see. We could have had you back on. That's all I'm saying, Ben. That's all I'm saying. Maybe there's a future. Did you have that sort of idea in your head about how you were going to sort of announce it? You know, do it in a song? Do it? You must be thinking about it for a long time. I'd just happily gone on holiday and just forgot about it. And that was me done, really. I've seen Ben for a while.

10:18Ben's doing back in training soon. But no, it was nice, actually. It was nice to let people know. And you mentioned it before, I've had a lot of positive feedback, positive comments from places that I've been. Brentford, Burnley, Sheffield United recently. The City fans throughout my career, because that's where I grew up, That's where my teachings, my education at their academy. So I've always been fortunate. I've had so many positive comments throughout my career and I wanted to just let people know that was me done. And yeah, I'm happy and I wanted to thank them for the support really. That was the main thing.

10:58Thank them for the positive comments. And then they kept rolling in once that announcement had made and it was humbling. It's really nice to hear. And I don't know about many footballers that get as many positive comments. There's always some little ones in there, but honestly, I've been very lucky to have the backing that I've had from everybody, really.

11:18Jim Campbell: You scored on your debut for Brentford against Man United in a 4-0 win as someone who came through the Man City Academy. I'm going to stick my neck out and assume that that is a career highlight. Oh, it's up there. Yeah, absolutely. Beating United. It would have been nice if it was at Old Trafford, down the road from where I live. but you can't complain too much. It was a good win. Walking home. Yeah, exactly. Kit on. Big fan of that. Absolutely. No, massive highlight. Yeah, all my family were there. Like you say, it was my home debut. Kicked off my Brentford career so well and gave me that boost and that confidence to have a really good time there.

11:58And yeah, I love beating both Manchester teams, to be honest with you, and playing against them, which we did in that season as well. And you've got so many sort of Manchester United and Man City fans in your family as well. That must have been quite a difficult kind of tightrope to walk. Oh, absolutely, yeah. So my in-laws are all big reds. My family are blues. So there's always a good bit of banter about them. Yeah, there's always that bit of ribbing each other. When you look back at a really successful career like you've had, Ben, I think when you announced, obviously a lot of memes were being thrown out, that Ronaldo meme that everyone enjoyed and stuff.

12:34but the picture of you carrying Bernardo Silva with one hand, like you're in the middle of WrestleMania, have you printed that picture out? And is it in your kitchen? I mean, it has to be. No, but yeah, it's one I should probably get printed out. There's a few movie scenes, I think, that were mopped up around it, wasn't there? Nice, yeah, yeah. It was a good bit of fun, though, but not all that kind of thing. The Bernardo things, it makes me laugh every time I see it. I've had it sent to me so many times, but yeah, it's brilliant. And yeah, Bernardo Silva is one to remember as well.

13:03Jim Campbell: I mean he is very small was he easy to pick up or did you have to really put him behind that do you know what probably yeah probably could he was quite light and not many players you know you can do that with but yeah Bernardo was one end but top class player probably disrespected him in a little bit of a way there but he wasn't getting past me at that moment he probably used a bit of skill to get past me and typical centre half style you know you don't let them through you don't let them pass but yeah Do you kind of bristle at the kind of no-nonsense defender? Because that's always been kind of a little bit your brand, even though you're a very cultured footballer, and you do like a bit of nonsense, clearly.

13:44You like picking players up and chucking them around. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think a lot of fans enjoy that side of the game, that bit of grit, that determination, a bit of fire and passion, which is something I felt like I've always had, and a little bit of aggression here and there in the right way is always healthy, I think. but yeah I love the other side of the game as well the culture I love lads being able to play you know we talked about Bernardo Silva players like I grew up watching as well and playing against as well like Kevin De Bruyne and people like that who are so good and technically I love playing against players like that to try and test myself against them and also watching them as well but yeah I do enjoy both sides of the game to be fair that little bit of grit and determination

14:26Jim Campbell: So it seems to me from the outside looking in that football is very different now from how it was when you started. If you were to start now, do you think you'd have a different kind of career maybe? Yeah, it's very different. I have a young eight-year-old son who's starting out playing football now and I see a lot of young players and how they're taught and the technical aspects of the game and young players coming through academies now. I take a lot of interest in that and in young players and their growth and development. And it certainly is very different. The pathway's a lot more difficult, I think, to actually get there.

14:59There's so many kids out now playing football. I think that's one thing that is really difficult for young players. And, yeah, potentially it would be a different pathway. Is there a player there for me? Maybe I would be a different type of player. I still like to think I would have done something in the game. But, look, I've loved the way my career has gone on. I've seen the changes. We've seen someone like Pep Guardiola come into the Premier League and the Premier League sort of change and turn. I felt my move from Burnley to Brentford was really important for me because I got to play a different style of football.

15:35I'd had so long at one place, you know, maybe I could have expanded a little bit earlier and tried to play a different style, but I loved where I was. I was captain of a football club, a Premier League football club, enjoying my football. There was no reason for me to move. I loved where I was. But, you know, moving to Brentford and working under Thomas Frank, And just seeing the different way he works and the club works and everything around sort of the analysis and the technology and the data that was focusing on that. It was eye-opening for me, to be honest with you. And one of them, I thought, you know, I could have done this a little bit early.

16:13But then again, I was more than happy to be where I was and enjoying it. So I wouldn't change it for the world. But no, it's interesting seeing the path. And I'm really pleased I've been involved in it as well in the development of the Premier League and been in it for so long. One of the things we'd love to talk to you, Ben, is about career change. It's kind of why we're here. We're going to get into yours now, that's right. You've obviously gone from Premier League footballer to being a pundit. You've been doing that for a little while. There's been a little bit of crossover. How have you found it?

16:41And is being an ex-player a little bit more freeing the way you can sort of talk about things? Yeah, I've always been curious about the next part of my career. I think, yeah, being a player, having that experience of playing with current players as well. You see the ex-Pundits, the ex-Pros that maybe haven't played with or involved in the Premier League that it has been. and I would say it's developed so much in the past five, ten years. Being able to speak and talk about my experiences on the pitch against players that are currently playing has been an advantage and something I wanted to do whilst I was still playing because I always had one eye in that transition into life after football.

17:25And something like I said earlier, I've actually been excited about for quite a while now. So I've always been trying to work hard on... on talking in front of camera, for example. Something I wasn't very good at earlier on. That's something I've worked on and trying to improve on. A little bit like my football career. You know, always working, always trying to get better. I think that's something that football has always taught me. Can you teach us how to be better, please? We just talked over each other just then. We're bad at it.

17:57Jim Campbell: I wanted to ask Ben, how, in terms of sort of launching a career as a pundit, but it feels like it's a very competitive environment and I presume you don't just call up Sky and ask them to give you a go. How does that work? Yeah, so I think it's something that you have to work on. You put into awkward positions or uncomfortable positions. I remember doing a Monday Night Football with Jamie Carragher and I was nervous. I was out of my comfort zone, way out of my comfort zone. It felt a little bit like your first football matches and you go into an arena to play against a top team in a big stadium.

18:34And I've certainly felt like that on a Monday night football. But I got through that. And once I got over that sort of fear a little bit, being in a big studio, the other bits came a little bit easier to me. You say it's like your first professional football match, but famously, Ben, you gave away two penalties in your first professional football match. And then the next game, you were man of the match. So I think, you know, approaching a job like punditry, I mean, you must have been like, well, this has gone very well. I've not given away two penalties. Yeah, no, exactly. Make mistakes. We all make mistakes.

19:09And, you know, I'm really, you know, I always take that with me that, you know, giving away two penalties in my first game, the first three minutes of the game, I gave away a penalty in my league debut. And it's kind of how you react from that. And I reacted by giving away another penalty. So, well, I always say that. I always say it wasn't a family, but I think, you know, I've always, I've always taken that with me and the learnings of that. And, you know, if I do make a mistake and I do mess up or say something stupid on, on live TV, it's, it's not like it's going to live with me forever, but you know, you take it on the chin and you, and you learn and you move on from it.

19:45And yeah, I made plenty of mistakes through my career. So, you know, if I make another one and it's, it kind of doesn't really matter. No one's really going to remember it. It's, It's what you do yourself and how you sort of approach the next opportunity that comes your way. Yeah. Are you going to be approaching – you've obviously done a little bit of coaching and managing, but is that somewhere you would end up eventually? Can we get an exclusive bank, please? Because Sky's been living high on the hog. Now I see my new manager's job. England. Yeah, England. I wish. I mean, I'm doing my B licence, so I'm taking those steps.

20:26Can I see myself being a coach and manager back in the game? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I don't think anytime soon. It takes a lot out of you. You have to be all in. It takes up your mind as a player. You can kind of switch off when you come home and you're looking after yourself and looking after number one. But, you know, as a manager, as a coach, you're constantly thinking about sessions, about things like that, about player selection, games in the future, analysis, what's going on, long hours. So it's difficult, but I will say I enjoy coaching young players. I've done a little bit recently, I see my son's team, trying to improve them, trying to get them better.

21:10I really enjoy that side of it. So just a little bit of coaching here and there is, you know, I do enjoy it. So, you know, I wouldn't never say never. And yeah, certainly enjoy sort of like trying to help people grow, help people get better at what they do. A little bit of a mentor to some of the, some of the young players, you know, I've got talent, I've got, you know, a little bit of ability trying to help guide them a little bit, you know, it always interests me and always, you know, excites me seeing a, seeing a good, good young footballer for sure.

21:40Jim Campbell: So those two routes, punditry and coaching, are routes we might expect a retired player to go down. But you've actually got your own unique path as well as co-founder of Season 1. So for those who don't know, tell us what Season 1 is all about and what it does. Yeah, Season 1 has been in my life for 18 months or so now. So it's still fairly new, but it's basically a platform that has two roles. first role is to help educate and create future ready young people and then the next role is to connect those future ready people, young people young talent to connect them with opportunities within football that potentially they wouldn't get I speak about education we kind of have four pillars it's a little bit, it's not It's not a course as such.

22:36It's quite free in how people want to learn. But on our platform, we have four pillars, which is you, which is kind of working on yourself and how you can fit into a team and helping guide people in that way. We have football, the football industry, how football works, people within it, what opportunities are in it, and also technology, which is something that I've been interested in for a number of years. AI is going to be a massive factor within the next two years. It's coming to football massively, blockchain technology as well and then future is the next pillar. And that basically just ties everything in, how all this will affect football going forward, the future going forward and not being afraid of it basically and not fearing it and how can these young people use it to their advantage and be prepared really for the future.

23:34And we want to help create that, create future ready. And then obviously they'll have their own education, courses, pathways, degrees, et cetera. But this is a little add-on and then obviously we can hopefully help connect that as well, connect the dots as well with it.

23:51Jim Campbell: Yeah, I mean, you mentioned earlier how kind of competitive and busy modern football is for younger people now. So it sounds like some of the mentorship skills you've been talking about are a really important part of season one. Yeah, absolutely. I say these young people come onto our platform. They have myself, my two co-founders there to bounce off, to speak to, to learn from. And yeah, I'm passionate about helping people and helping young people. And, you know, it's a tough world out there. It's going to get harder and more difficult for them. And, yeah, being able to give a little bit to them and to mentor them.

24:33We've got 400 people on our platform at the minute in such a short space of time. So we're growing steadily and slowly, and everyone that's been involved in, we've had events, we've had a lot of young people together, creator events and things, all been really successful. So, yeah, trying to give them a little bit of my experience and what I've been through and the other guys that work alongside me within the group is valuable and, yeah, something I'm really passionate about. There was a great interview you guys did with one of the young people who are involved in the Brentford video scouting sort of production.

25:10And I was just sort of thinking when I was watching the interview, and it was really, really interesting, especially because Brentford have a slightly different sort of brief when it comes to incoming transfers, certainly. there are so many football jobs inside football that just didn't exist when you started your career so it must be quite sort of like interesting to sort of see almost cottage industries around the the tech around around football grow up around you a little bit yeah absolutely and like you say being a part of Brentford and seeing the development with the club when I first went there it wasn't many staff around it was quite a small small community club and it's just expanded and grown and the staff members now, the roles that they have, the jobs that they have, I really took an interest in it and what each and every one were doing and as you said, there's so many opportunities within football now.

26:02It's big business. It's growing all the time and these big clubs have vast amounts of staff all over the world really. You can work remotely, you can work within the clubs and the stadiums but the amount of opportunities and we want to help create pathways for young people to to take advantage of these opportunities and that's something that I say we're passionate about and we want to do. Would you take any of the young people sheepherding like Eddie Howe did that time? That was an interesting pre-season and when I looked back on fondly but yeah that was one of my first pre-seasons with Burnley I think it was my first pre-season with Burnley and you're kind of wondering as a young player what's this all about.

26:49Do you kind of see through those kind of like managerial kind of like slightly gimmicky kind of things? Do you see through it and sort of go, yes, I can see what you're trying to teach us, but can we get back to transition? Yeah, I think, you know, the teamwork side of it was interesting. Some players stood in the bushes and were scared of the sheep, so that probably didn't work well for the teamwork. work but yeah I mean some were getting stuck in trying to grab the sheep and yeah it was it was I guess you know you look back at the moments and for myself there's been there's been plenty of them throughout my career that you can you can laugh at and yeah some were strange but some were had a lot of meaning behind them I'm not sure which category that one fits into but yeah.

27:35So even elite footballers can embrace career change at one point or another if you're planning to do the same, then how can you make the most of the opportunity? Here's Claire Potter, a further education trainer, to explain the opportunities that further education gives you to change things up in your working life and how to make it happen. Hi Football Ramble team, my name is Claire Potter and I'm a further education trainer. Let me tell you a little bit about what further education is. For some, it's like a stepping stone between secondary school and university, but for many others just like me, it was a way of learning vocational skills.

28:11So when I was in my mid-twenties, after doing some work in residential care, I decided to change tack and I trained as a level one carpenter. This helped me to get a job and I came back to college to do my level two and level three and I fully qualified. And then I went on and I had my own business and I did various different things with my trade. It gave me choices. Full enough, the college that I was at when I did my training was the College of Northwest London, which is where I'm teaching now. Now I'm really enjoying inspiring my students to pick up the skills they need to be a carpenter. There is not much that can beat that feeling, passing on the skills to the next generation.

29:00Apart from maybe winning the World Cup. I'll just stop that there. We would have liked that, Claire, as well, wouldn't we, Jim?

29:06Jim Campbell: Yeah, that was, if I'm honest, that's why I was watching the whole thing in the first place. That was what I wanted. Sorry, Claire, as you were. Football and the trades and teaching have quite a lot in common. Teamwork is key. Each person in the team has a key role to play in ensuring the best result. So just like carpenters, plasterers, bricklayers and painters working together on site to produce the best buildings on the playing field, the goalie, the defence, the midfielders and the strikers work together to get the best results. Studying the trades will give you a strong choice and a good living.

29:51And it also might mean you might go on and develop a new skill like teaching when you've got those trade skills. Thank you very much, Claire, for that. Now let's get back on with our chat with Mr Ben May. Six years ago, Ben, you were at the vanguard of players who felt able to talk about things kind of bigger than yourselves and bigger than football with obviously the Burnley plane that went over. And I think you said at the time, you just spoke from the heart and you, you know, you weren't seeking to be at the center of anything like that. But it was it was a real sort of affecting time, I think.

30:25I really sort of found that really, really emotional and really important for a footballer to do that. Now, when you approach these young people in football, is communication like the biggest thing that you kind of impress upon them? to be able to speak your mind freely and to lead others into battle? Yeah, communication is so important. I think it's something I've developed through my career. I guess culminating in becoming a captain, trying to be that leader, trying to show those skills, those leadership skills that I guess I've been able to acquire through playing, through leading a team and passing on that experience to these young people.

31:17And go back to that moment in time when the City game, we came out and spoke. And I think I realised how important speaking about things, communicating, opening up, how powerful someone like myself, a voice can be like that. And the response I got from that certainly enabled me to gain confidence in, I guess, doing more, I guess, doing more and then trying to, yeah, help more people or encourage more people, not necessarily help, but encourage more people to speak and to talk. and around the same time, I just had my second child, my daughter, who was really premature at the time. I also found that really helpful to talk about that as well.

32:12Both of these things collided at the same time. She'd been born, I think, three weeks earlier. Then I was playing the match and she was in hospital two miles down the road in intensive care. There was a lot going on at that time. and I found a lot of comfort in the support I got from speaking out and being able to communicate and stuff. So, yeah, I certainly learned a big lesson there in communication, even at that stage of my career, how important it is, how much of, I guess, a leader you can be in those times as well. And I grew quite strong from that. And, yeah, I think I guess that sort of led into everything else that I've done previously and into it.

32:57Jim Campbell: I mean, it sounds like the time you're talking about would probably be the time I'm about to ask you about, but was there a stage in your career where you felt like you'd achieved a lot of the things you wanted to do and maybe it was time to give something back and help others with the experience you gained in that time? Yeah, certainly around that period. But I've always been interested in giving back in clubs and the places that I've worked, especially around the areas of Burnley, trying to be in the community, trying to get to know people around the town. But yeah, throughout my career, I've always tried to do that.

33:31But yeah, certainly once I realised, I guess, how much my voice mattered and how much everyone else's voice matters as well. And speaking out and talking, it led into other parts of my life. and season one, I guess, was the culmination of those bits that I've been talking about and wanting to give back, I guess, and this is my way of doing it. But there's more to come as well. I've got more ideas and more things that I want to achieve and the ambition is still certainly there to keep growing and keep improving and keep getting better at communicating, at leading, at mentoring, all those types of things.

34:12What would you say to anyone considering passing on their skills to the next generation, whatever industry they might be working on, How would you kind of approach something like that? Yeah, I think it's important that, you know, the experience that people have, they pass those on, pass those, like we spoke about making mistakes earlier on, you're passing that on, passing other various experiences that people go through. It's important. And I've learned a lot through football. I've learned a lot through, you know, my family and things like that. So trying to mentor people around those parts is a bit more probably my speciality, I guess, in sport and that resilience and making mistakes and getting over them and growing and learning.

35:00It's important that people do that.

35:03Jim Campbell: You're obviously a very respected and experienced footballer. You spent a lot of time growing the skills and the connections and whatnot in football. But did you feel nervous stepping into a completely different work environment? Yes, yeah, I felt nervous, felt like I'm in my comfort zone. Felt a little bit imposter syndrome kicking in at times. Did I belong there? Was I a big enough name in football to be doing these sort of gigs? You know, but ultimately once you put yourself out there, once you get into your comfort zone, you realise it's not really that scary at all and you just get on with it, you get over it and you realise it's not, yeah, there's nothing to be fearful of.

35:47I think that's important, just going and doing it and putting everything you can into it and putting your all into it. And, yeah, that's what certainly I'd advise people to do because at the end of the day, you know, it's only yourself that can stop you from getting to where you want to get to. And if you're all in, if you're willing to do all those types of things, the hard work, the putting yourself out there, talking, growing, all those types of things is you're only going to go one way and that's forwards So

36:18Jim Campbell: we just had the World Cup of course what is your relationship like with England do you wish you could have had more opportunities for England maybe Yes yes so I had my ambitions when I was younger I wanted to play in the Premier League be a Premier League captain but I also wanted to play for England and be England captain that was like the pinnacle that was like you know dreams what dreams are made of and I felt like having them high goals always pushed me and I didn't stop believing that until I say pushing 30. I still had Ames. I chatted with Gareth Southgate at one point. We spoke and that's probably the closest I've ever been to being in an England squad.

36:59I would love to have had the opportunity to show what I could have done. I felt like I adapted well to different scenarios. I did feel like we were judged a little bit, the style of play that Burnley had. My centre-half partner, Tarki, he got called up, but then he swiftly got split. Like I said, if you play for Berlin, you're not going to get called up. It wasn't his style of play that he wanted players to play, and he was looking at teams that were playing a little bit more expansive. So I was a bit obviously disappointed with that. I felt like I'd had a number of good seasons, and I would love to have proved myself elsewhere and would have given everything, but I can't complain.

37:39I think, yeah, the dream was there. You reach a certain level and if you don't quite get to the next level, it's obviously going to be disappointed. But yeah, I love watching England and love watching the lads who I know who have played for them and get behind them all the time. Yeah, just a bit disappointed, obviously, with the recent match. But yeah, things happen. We spoke about England. You obviously captained England at an under-19 level, I believe. And you have worked under one of our favourite England managers as the Football Ramble. We were obsessed. We are obsessed. We continue to be obsessed with the life and times of one Sven Joran Eriksson.

38:25I know it was only a brief period of time under Sven at Leicester. But what was it like? Chaos, I imagine. There were so many weird things happening at that club at the time. Yeah, there was. A great time, though. Like I say, it was my first league appearance. That was when I gave away the two penalties. But he kept faith in me and he had a great six months under him and his staff. He was actually a city manager when I was a young player. We won the Youth Cup and he was the manager at the time and he took us on his pre-season tour. He took a few of us from the Youth Cup team because he saw us win it at the end of the season.

39:02They were going away with the first team. and he took us away with the first team away to Thailand, which was crazy because we were young lads going away with the first team. And yeah, it was certainly an eye-opener to say the least, seeing these professional players at the end of the season. They were letting their hair down a little bit. Let loose. Yeah. But then yeah, moving to Leicester and working with him and having that experience. Yeah, there was a lot of things going on around that time. But he was a great man, a brilliant man, a brilliant coach. And yeah, I could speak highly enough of him and what a person he was and really enjoyed working under him.

39:48Jim Campbell: Yeah, I know you obviously weren't playing under Sven for that long, but in terms of what they brought out of you as a player, is there a manager or coach from your career who you kind of look on as the best? I worked with Sean Dyche for a long time Eddie Howe was really good for me when he was at Burnley even though it was a short period I think for me I worked best and had a great relationship with Thomas Frank for me the three years I was at Brentford with him were fantastic my first season it's just the way he spoke to you and respected you, asked for your opinions and was very personable with all your family as well I mean, my mum's got a picture with him after the season and he's just like, he was a genuinely good, he is a genuinely good person as well.

40:37So I was really at this point when he didn't succeed at Spurs, I felt like he was right fit for the job and ready to take that next step really. But I think timing wasn't great for him with the squad of plays he had. Yeah, I think for me, he was the one I went for, at the end of my time at Brentford, we had to walk down the Thames for a couple hours just after training one time and just chatted about everything. He wanted to keep me for another year, but I just said to him, I kind of want to play and move back up north with my family and go and try and have another year of playing while I can.

41:14Yeah, he just understood that. He spoke about coaching and his opinion was that I could be a good coach and maybe link up with him at one point in the future. But yeah, I don't know about that. Of course, this entire show has all been about celebrating using valuable skills in a new way and giving something back. What piece of advice, what one piece of advice, Ben, would you have for someone looking to make an entire career pivot? I think if you're going to do it, do it all, be all in. I don't think you can do it half-hearted. I think if you're going to make a change, make a transition, go all in.

41:50And yeah, I have no regrets, really. I think that's the main thing. If you've got a passion and you want to pursue something, you want to change, you want to transition, go all in and do everything you can to do it. If you fail, you fail. At least you've tried. At least you've worked hard to pursue something that you've really wanted to go and grasp. Fantastic. Well, Ben, thank you so much for taking the time to chat to us. And, yeah, good luck with the Ben Mee summer. Thanks, guys.

42:20Jim Campbell: Enjoyed it. Cheers. Appreciate it. Thank you so much to Ben Mee for joining us on this special extra episode of The Ramble. If you have real-world industry experience, you already have what it takes to be a great further education trainer. If you've ever thought about passing on your knowledge, giving your skills new life, and ensuring a strong workforce for tomorrow, training others at your local college could be the perfect next step. Plus, you don't always need an academic degree or prior teaching qualification to get started. You can start earning right away and do training whilst on the job.

42:48Jim Campbell: If you like the sound of this, just head to gov.uk slash teachingfurthereducation to find out more.