Mailbag: Can Bellingham, Palmer & Foden play together?

0:00Hello everybody, welcome to the Football Rumble Mailbag. England's balance England's spine and the championship playoffs are the orders of the day it's Tuesday 14th of October I'm Marcus Speller I'm Jim Campbell and I'm the Duesan of the Raja

0:24Hello everybody good to have you here if you want a question on the mailbag of course get in touch on xbluesky or Instagram at footballramble comment on YouTube or email us at footballramble.com and of course friends of the ramble get priority on the discord i say that at the start jim so many many thousands dare i say millions of listeners go oh i should have done that i should have done which they should have yes but you've got a chance every week you have a chance to be people like friend of the ramble george on discord who's got in touch with us to ask this opening question of the mail bag george says this is it a coincidence that england's best performances brackets serbia and Wales have been without Jude Bellingham, Cole Palmer and Phil Foden.

1:05Is our team, yes George, King George I'm going to call him, is our team more balanced without forcing two or even all three into it? Vish, I'd like Jim to, no Vish, I'd like you to go first please. I think this question is putting too much on what's happened so far. Is it knee jerky? Are you saying King George is knee jerky? Not knee-jerky, but there's never been a situation where England have tried to force those three players in. But I take the point of trying to force more creative players, and there are spaces for those kind of off-the-cuff creative players into a team. He's harking back to Euro 2024 with Foden on that side.

1:42Yeah, exactly. But even then, Foden, that felt like a sensible thing to do. Because he played there a lot for Man City. But quite clearly, it wasn't working as the tournament went on. And it's also hard for me, anyway, to take too much out of this qualification campaign because England don't struggle during qualification campaigns. He mentions the Serbia and Wales games there, or rather we've mentioned them as the best performances. Wales are 30th in the world, Serbia 34th. England beat them 3-0 at the World Cup a few years ago. The thing I will say, though, is that we always talk about England's squad depth because of, I suppose, name recognition when an England squad drops.

2:20And it's often been the case, let's say, like in a previous era, someone like Elliot Anderson will have a deserved call up and not see any minutes and it would be like right we've got one through the door but what's actually what tangibly is he going to get from this particular camp? He's not getting a taste of the biscuit he's getting a smell of the biscuit Yeah, yeah you can see us open the packet if you want You can't get in Give him a nibble But yeah you basically end up in a situation where you get these players who've been called up consistently but have very little England experience on the field itself and I appreciate players have got the opportunity to have that experience through injury more than anything else but what happens with say someone like Bellingham I think is that when he does get recalled and comes back into the XI he will come in with a much cleaner brief for him because this system at the moment is working quite nicely and it's not limiting to my mind the creativity that England possess with the players they have now and the players that might come into that system.

3:23Yes, I think that's well said. Jim, would you agree or strongly disagree with Vish? No, I agree that I think what we're seeing is the blueprint of how England will set up in the World Cup, provided we get there, which I think we all would be very surprised if we don't at this point. You don't need to put that carry. It won't necessarily be this exact kind of group of players. And I think Morgan Rodgers in particular is kind of sat in the Bellingham role at the moment. And I think the point is interesting, though. I think, you know, what we've seen against Serbia and Wales makes a sort of compelling point for balance, doesn't it?

4:00Because we've seen so many managers crowbar creative players into positions that aren't quite their own, which just upsets absolutely everything in it. Tuchel obviously has this one-and-done remit where he actually doesn't really need to or seem to care too much about what the press think or he doesn't mind saying that Wembley was too quiet. can you turn it up a bit? A lot of these things that might actually be very difficult for an English manager to do, he can do and he's doing so with aplomb. And I think actually there is a real possibility that come the World Cup, you don't start Cole Palmer or Phil Foden.

4:36And that's just that, you know, because it's going to be about the balance of the team being right. And it looks like we're going in the right direction on that front. And I mentioned yesterday on the Monday show that the conditions are going to mean that we need to use the bench sensibly and probably very kind of deliberately. I imagine there will be sort of planned substitutions that will happen to deal with the heat. And like, you know, bringing Bellingham off for Palmer or possibly Foden is a weapon, is an asset, and we should use it and not kind of, you know, waste it all at once. I do wonder with Phil Foden if this might end up being a sort of bit of a developing situation because he's fully fit and he's playing very well.

5:18Whereas Jude Bellingham has only played five games this season, so it's maybe understandable that you might kind of give him a little bit of time off. But with Foden, it's a bit of a strange one to not include him for me. And if it happens in the next squad, that might be something we go, oh, perhaps Tuchel just isn't sure about him. And, you know, looking around the squad, everybody is there on merit as well, but it's a funny one for me. I think he's very much earned a place there. Well, it's not utterly inconceivable to think that Foden could be a big name casualty, you know, when it comes to picking the squad of the World Cup next year.

5:54I know that people go, come on, don't be ridiculous. But, you know, this is the point of sort of the essence, if you like, of George, King George's question. That you have to, you've got to name a starting 11. And sometimes we can get a little bit too obsessed with the starting 11. because as you say, you do have a bench there. The start name is still very important, of course. You've got the bench, you've got a squad. You also need other positions where you need cover and whatnot. So, you know, will Jack Grealish fight his way into the side? Some people will think, yes. Some people think, you know, don't need him or no.

6:30Will Marcus Rashford make it? You know, there's a lot of names there. I know these players play different positions and so on. So, of those three players that George has mentioned there, I think you're looking at that. You can't conceivably think that Jude Bellingham, all being well, all being fit, doesn't make the England squad. I would say the same for Cole Palmer. A lot of people would say the same for Phil Foden. He would be the one. But that's speculation at the moment, so perhaps we shouldn't go down that road too much. But with regard to the team, Vish, Jim's mentioned about the substitutes there.

7:03There's no team in world football that would want to see the opposition bringing on Jude Bellingham after 60 minutes. a very, very hungry and angry Jude Bellingham for the last half an hour or whatever of a game. No, but there'd be a lot of teams very happy that he's not starting. Well, indeed. Well, okay, so... Jude Bellingham in particular. I mean, that's... Okay. Yeah, I suppose, yeah. I mean, yeah, you've thrown that back at me there and I think actually that is a fair point. The thing I'd say about Bellingham not... The only real barrier that I see at the moment, and it's not so much a barrier but something to address or talk about I feel like I read so much football now that I can't not talk in really like severe terms but because Bellingham's not been in the squad it's been really interesting seeing Declan Rice play his Arsenal role for this that's what Anderson lets him do a little bit more even though Anderson again is not has a bit more to his game but clearly the two of them are in there because if you look at Anderson at Forest he likes moving a bit it further forward because Forrest often play an actual like a sweeping holding midfielder alongside him.

8:15But yeah, it'd be interesting to see what happens there because the principle of a Bellingham, Anderson, Rice midfield is wonderful. It is. There's a lot of power in that. There is. There's a lot of everything in it, but you need someone to give up something. And so who ends up giving up something? But do you think Bellingham, I mean, do you think that is his best position? I mean, I I know he sort of excelled in particular that first part, if you like, of his Real Madrid career. But one might say that Cole Palmer, for example, is, I know, he's not going to start on the right. That is Saka's position for me.

8:49I appreciate one or two people might disagree with that, but I think the general feel I get is that's where Saka's going to be. I wonder with Palmer and maybe even Foden, that they are naturally more that sort of, if you like, sort of number 10 type player than Bellingham. Because if you remember with Bellingham... I'd agree with that because Bellingham it's a slightly different type of midfield structure if you've got the three in there with Bellingham he can do it we've seen him do it to aplomb as well but do you think that's kind of what I mean I feel like for a major tournament with the degree of conservatism you do need Bellingham is a better fit for that and I know yeah it does depend on the opposition but you wouldn't have thought starting 11s would differ that wildly I suppose no but then like you know you mentioned there about bringing someone on after an hour or so.

9:36If England are chasing the game and they need to make that substitution, I feel like the substitution they make is if Anderson is... Yeah, Anderson for Palmer or Foden, and then everyone shifts one down. Yeah, in specific scenarios. Because I always felt... I know a lot of people said, no, but Rice and Bellingham, because of Bellingham's previous, Jimmy, could play a little bit further back. And then you have Foden or Palmer in front. Exactly. But just... No England manager seems to like it as an idea, though, do they? No. There's probably a reason for that. Yeah, and we know that England have always, especially when they play against some of the bigger teams, and even not always against a bigger team, it's a side like Croatia or whatever, it's that keeping the ball.

10:18It's still not fully seeped into English football and culture yet. Perhaps in 10 years, I don't know, whatever. It's there, you can see the improvement. So I think Vish is right when he says that just degree of conservatism that you need in there. Yeah, I mean, certainly when you get into the knockout stages. You need to have that kind of built-in safety net, don't you? So Tuka was actually asked directly about whether he could imagine putting Bellingham, Foden and Palmer on the bench at the World Cup. And I love this answer, actually. He said, you think too much, you imagine too much. I'm sorry, but I don't follow that mindset.

10:50With all of this, I would say, let's cross the river when we are at the river. It does not help anyone if we think in bubbles about what can happen and about what cannot happen. So he's basically saying there's too many podcasts. Despite that, do sign up for the Football Ramble Patreon. on. Otherwise, it's all just a lot of noise. Yeah, should we move on then? Well, he is right. So again, we can scrutinise this and say, it does depend on... It's only going to get him into trouble, isn't it? It is, yeah. And it doesn't really matter if it gets him into a situation where we're having a go at him, or the media is having a go at him.

11:20He has had to tread a very careful line with a number of those players, Bellium in particular, but also with Foden and the comments about Grealish, for example. and it gives him, there's no benefit in talking, as Jim said there with those quotes, this far ahead of time. Yeah, he's being very eloquent and very skilled when he's talking to the media. We saw this for very different reasons at a time when he was at Chelsea with all the stuff that was going on with Abramovich and so on. That's where you saw Tuchel really, if you like, perform very well in front of the media. If you remember, he came across quite statesman-like and very admirable, I think, off the top of my head, in what was quite a difficult time, especially to get the tone and the stuff coming out of your mouth right about a very sort of specific and contentious situation.

12:12So that's good that he's carrying that on because as we know, England is one of those countries where the press can be like a pack of wolves. They are like a pack of wolves and so on. We're not alone in that. But I think, yeah, I think he's getting the balance right, certainly in front of the media, which hopefully bodes well or however important that is, I think he's doing it. But yes, I think we can scrutinise this all day long. Also as well, just to finish on this question, I think that if he was to sort of rip Morgan Rodgers out of the team and go, yeah, what you did there doesn't really matter.

12:43I quite liked actually in hindsight that he kind of carried on and went, you know what? If you are playing really well on merit and you're doing well, then fine. We'll give you a go.

12:54Love it. you've got the next question yeah and it's England as well so you'll love this it comes from Chris on Instagram it feels like there are five nailed on starters for me if they're all fit Jordan Pickford Mark Gay Declan Rice Bukayo Sucker and Harry Kane that's a good spine but the second centre half feels like such a big unknown right now that pairing has been previously particularly under Southgate for the Harry Maguire John Stones era Who do you think compliments Gay at the moment? It's John Stones. It is. It is. He is the best defender England have. And I think he's the best defender England have had for many years.

13:36I don't think England have had too many brilliant centre-halves, which is why Southgate, certainly at the start of his time, went for a back three. But he is easily the most experienced. He was there in the Euros. Him and Gay played together at the Euros. He's a threat in the air for set pieces as well. I know that's a bit of a boring answer he's a lovely ball player at the moment as well yeah exactly and when Chris sort of mentioned those players I agree with every single one of them and John Stones to me they're all the starters sure so the issue with Stones is that he only managed 20 games last season and obviously he's spoken about his frustrations about that recently and we all hope that he can stay fit this season and kind of had the availability that comes with his ability because he'll probably walk into the team if he has a season like that all being well he's fit and firing he's a starter for you Jim I really rate Esri Concer I'm surprised you've hesitated I would consider Concer at the moment because of the fitness issues no but I'm saying but if they're both fit and firing I think it's pretty close actually really because he's very very physical very powerful he's another good ball playing centre back and I think he's played very well when he has played for England if you judge him on his England performances alone he's such a solid option that I don't think there's actually that much between them which is I think we're actually in a healthier position than the question suggests possibly because those three players are very very good in any combination Konza to me is in the squad and he probably is third choice centre half so I don't think you'll you know I think your opinion is you've showed your workings there I get it but just for me like I I don't think there's any question that Stones is I think he's the number one starting centre-half.

15:19I think Gay is number two, then obviously you need two of them. So we're not going crazy. I agree that Konza's a good player and I think he's a handy player for England to have, but yeah, for me it's Gay and Stones. What do you think? Yeah, I don't see far beyond that. I did give myself a moment yesterday where I dreamt of a different timeline where Jared Branthwaite is... Yeah. Jared Branthwaite. Yep. Which is a shame, but obviously he's only 23 at the moment but just like been a bit hampered with injuries and stuff but yeah I don't see that as an issue that needs to be addressed until as Tuchel says we get to the river and it's like where's John Stones?

16:04Who's been throwing stones in the river? Yes, skimming stones yeah Don't throw him though because he's very old But he has such a big tournament experience for him as well He does He has a calm head in there yeah and he's calm on the field as well I like the idea that he's lost do you remember really early on I think maybe we talked about this quite recently actually with Stones when he like Guardiola was making loads of excuses for him when he was making mistakes I love this player and all that and it felt really over the top but it was over the top because that's just how Guardiola operates he was like I'm gonna all your hate I'm gonna smother him with much more love and there's almost a shield that he the last thing I want him to think is that some of you are judging him for you know misplacing your pass back to the goalkeeper which he would do yeah he had a rick in him which seems crazy to think because it's been so long yeah but I suppose what that gives you is the experience of making those mistakes not just learning from mistakes but also not being fearful of them and that's so important for England at major tournaments because you need someone who who's just going to strictly adhere to the plan and not be perturbed by things going slightly wrong.

17:21One of the things England will always have to get over is the fact that we're English. And there is that chip on our shoulders about major tournaments not doing it. We saw it a little bit in... Well, it's a monkey off the bat. I wouldn't say it was a chip on the shoulder. It still is, though. but I still, and this is being wise after the event, but I can still see that throwing in the final of your... I knew you were going to say that, with Karl Walker throwing it back. But it's just like, what's that for? Especially now in the age of the long throws. Exactly, yeah. Which worked against Slovakia, by the way.

17:59But you know exactly what I was talking about there. And it's just, it's stuff like that. And you need more players who are conditioned against that. And to have a centre-back who's as good as he is, who as you say has a tournament experience and just the life experience i think he's a no-brainer i would have him on those on those list of definites but for as jim's articulated the injury things yeah i think as well actually his tournament experience will be absolutely key if he's available because an inevitability of of a tournament like this is that if you get into the knockout stages and you do well you will play extra time at least once like we see it happen all the time and he is exactly the sort of player who has been there and done it and can be a reference point for those who were perhaps kind of newer into the squad because actually if you look around the squad there are there are very that there are a lot of players who don't have a lot of caps and it's easy to forget that because squads evolve and we're all thinking oh elliot anderson will probably be there hopefully adam walton will be there they're really inexperienced they seem like the obvious picks at the moment but it's you know us looking at them and imagining their kind of contribution to england is very different from their lived experience of it and they need those reference points around him.

19:05He's a good penalty buddy. Yes. Was he Bakao Saka's penalty buddy? I think so. He's also good at mugging other teams off when we've won a shootout. Oh, what did he... Remember the Columbia? What did he... I don't remember. You don't remember that, do you? What? Was he giving it to the Colombians? Yeah. Oh, I don't remember that. I don't remember. Talking through it. Are you joking? Yeah. When England win... I'm sorry, I'm not joking. When England win the penalty shootout... Yeah. Obviously, the whole line breaks and they run towards... Yeah, I remember the pylon. Yeah. But before the pylon, There's an angle from behind the Columbia line where he turns around and he just starts laying into him while sprinting in a different direction.

19:42Really? They were a bit dirty. Yeah. It's a lovely... What joy I've brought to your life. Yeah, I can't believe I missed an England moment there. Excellent stuff. If you don't remember the penalty buddy system, then... Big man, little man. Exactly. It's like you kind of... You walk as far as you can with the penalty taker to give them that sort of emotional support. And Pickford has the ball that he's taking. Yeah, exactly. yeah yeah it's all very woke Jim isn't it woke nonsense alright coming up after this your responses to the knockout world cup idea

20:15now then if you remember on a previous mailbag we had a suggestion from Dan for a full knockout world cup draw which has caught the imagination I think of the ramble faithful we should probably sort of reiterate what that is essentially just every nation knockout off you go yeah Basically, the World Cup becomes like the FA Cup or any other domestic kind of cup like that. No two legs in the semifinals, though. Up yours, Carol. Now, Hull Monster did the maths, and Hull Monster said this. 211 nations, that is the current FIFA roster, he said the top 45 nations get a bye from the first round with the other 166 playing.

20:58Then 83 winners in the top 45 meet for the second round, making up 128 nations. So it's the second round proper. 64 move into the third round and so on from there. Maximum number of eight games to win the whole thing. So there's an ounce of clarity, if you like, because we were saying, how many games? This is ridiculous. Eight games? It's similar to the real thing, of course. John got in touch and said, I'm from Mozambique and there's absolutely no fucking chance of us qualifying for anything. So presumably John's on board. Yeah, absolutely. Get the beak in there, Vish. It's a lot of daily shows, though, isn't it?

21:35It is. I mean, it already is, though, isn't it? I was going to say. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, we wouldn't bother with the first round, would we? Give us three rings when it's in the proper bit. Has this convinced you any more, Jim? Because, oddly, I think I'm like 2 % more convinced. I've still got a long way to go. Legitimately, yeah. I cannot deny that this would be an absolutely entertaining tournament. and hypothetically I would love to see what this sort of thing is but saying stuff like that is how you end up with a club World Cup so maybe we shouldn't encourage it too much. Yeah, Vish is just not having any of it.

22:08No, it feels very running man, doesn't it? Yeah. What happens if you go outside the bounds of the stadium? Okay. Now Duncan, in among all this World Cup knockout nonsense, reminded us that the unofficial football world championships which traces the winner back from the very first international, is currently saying that the holders, incredibly, are Kosovo, having beaten Sweden 2-0 back in September. Yeah. It's a lovely little thing. Should there be an extra World Cup spot, kind of put aside for whoever that is? Should you get a medal? Like a money in the bank thing. If you've not qualified, then in you go.

22:46You should get like, what do you call those little triangle things? Not like a pension or whatever. Oh, yeah, the things they give out. when they swap they are called pendants pendants yeah not pendants sorry yeah pendants oh I see oh yes when you hand it over at King Ruff surely you should you should have one if you're the unofficial yes yeah it's something because you can't have like a thing on the kit and you have to take it down to FIFA house and cash it in yeah you can see they're in there because it's a big glass building no you don't cash it in Jim you just you have it and then when you lose it you're like alright fine no but if you have it when at a certain time right you can use it to qualify for the World Cup at the expense of, let's say, a team of your choice.

23:25Oh, I see what you mean. You just refuse to play friendlies, don't you? No, you can't do that, otherwise it gets taken off you. Okay, fine. I mean, it is essentially, it's a bit like the Jack's Encyclopedia or the Moabidiak Lineal Champion. It is the lineal champion of football. That's all it is. So Kosovo are currently the unofficial football world champions or the lineal world football champions, I would like to say. So they're the team to beat, everybody. Friend of the Ramble, Catherine has been in touch on Discord and continuing our musical theme. Catherine asks, if every country at the World Cup had a song play when they score out of the Can Can playing every time Bayern Munich score, what song are you choosing for England plus any other countries you want to add?

24:06Oh, that's good. Sweet Caroline. You see, I think you can't have like your 4-0 down and then you get one back. You can't have it. It has to be specific moments in games, surely. no I don't know how do Bayern do it if they they're very rarely 4-0 maybe they don't know yeah they're not doing it when you know let's say they pull a goal back against Real Madrid in the semi-final no probably not regardless of that I guess you know each country will make their own decisions on that I think for me the essence of why the Can Can is so funny is the sort of how clownish it makes the opposition look so I think for England it's got to be the Benny Hill theme right I like that we are running rings around you.

24:51Yeah, that's good. Oh, Match of the Day theme tune. That's quite smug. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Do you know what? I did think though that, you know, that song by it's called Hold On, I'm Coming. It's often played in da da da da da Oh, yeah. Hold on, I'm coming. Is it Sam and Dave or something? Don't know. They sung Soul Man as well. Yeah. You know, like legendary artists. I should know that. If you do pull one back. Yeah. Hold on, I'm coming. So we got a set list. Yeah. Different songs for different scenarios. They're like England score and they say 2-0 down, they get one. Da da da da. We're like, here we go, come on.

25:28Reeling them in. Nice. That would be good. I've got a Cella Luna for Italy. Which one? It's a very... It might be offensive, but I don't think it is. It's a very enjoyable song. If there's one thing that you should do in this current climate of cancel culture, it might be offensive, I'm going to press on with it anyway. offensive in the sense that like it is kind of um i came across this song in like the depths of um you know east coast um american italian culture right okay and it's a celebration i believe it is also in um in the godfather okay um it's a song at the wedding uh but it is a very enjoyable song very upbeat and very very annoying after a while and I wouldn't be surprised if in some places they use this as a form of torture yes and needling your opponent is a big part of it exactly and I didn't really think of that but yeah this is also a part of that I think the lamest answer for most countries is the national anthem but not for France because the French national anthem is incredible isn't it England go what up at the last minute right yeah exactly but what I do A difference with da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

26:47They've got one there. What about, though, if... Because, like, let's be honest. I think I speak on behalf of a lot of people when I say, like, playing We Are The Champions when they've won. Lame. But if you score late on... No, if you score late on and the game is still in play and you play We Are The Champions, that's big licks. I think that changes it. Yeah. You're singing We Are The Champions, you've just got to go up. You invite disaster. You do. but you have to respect it on some level I like your set list idea yeah it's got to be for different moments in the game you can't have one song can I take the idea a little bit further than that and suggest that individual penalty takers have their own songs that soundtrack each penalty like walk on music well as the penalty is happening so don't say hey if you're no if you're one of those guys who does the sort of like ooh when am I going to take it the stuttering run up yeah Pink Panther theme nice the sneakiest song ever written I like that I think that get in the goalkeeper's head or if you commit an absolute act of robbery and you score a last minute winner just completely against the run or play or even if indeed you've just won the game then I think it's called The Race I'm not sure but a film that I often love to reference on this pod Nuns on the Run the theme tune if you've just got out of there with an absolute heist of a victory So at the end rather than with the goal?

28:13Well, I think you can do both. Because with the goal... But you're presuming that there's no reply. Just the manager be like, everyone, stay switched on! And they're just like... You can't be too catchy. Oh, come on. But you would be bent over laughing. Yeah, that's not good, is it? Right? Oh, the day the laughter died, is it? Well, just hold on and play at the end. Right, fine. Anyway, you've got my set list. there you go any more for any more? yeah let us know we would adore to have follow up on this Germany 99 Red Balloons I just went through a list of songs that I associate with different countries I do like the one that you said for Italy because I've now got the tune in my head yeah right because you used it when you put when you were when Chloe Kelly had just mugged off Italy at the Euros and I know this is very well I'm not talking about myself but it's a little bit self-indulgent I'm going to talk about what Vish put on Instagram it was brilliant It was that wonderful photo of Chloe Kelly running away.

29:15The penalty was saved and then she got the rebound. And she's running off doing that, just calm down, everybody. It's okay. And all the Italian defenders and goalkeeper are like in anguish. And she's just running, like a slight smug look on her face, going, calm down. What was it? Me putting cheddar on bolognese and everybody in Italy in the background. Because it does improve spaghetti bolognese. It does, yeah. And it improves most things. All right, coming up after this, should the championship playoffs be expanded?

29:49Gentlemen, we've had quite the correspondence from Matthew in California here, who messages this. You discussed goal-scoring records on the latest preview show after Austria beat San Marino 10-0 and every outfield player scored or assisted. While playing youth football in Wales for a team called Hey St. Mary's, I think I may have experienced something similar. The away team Nelson's Sports Club arrived in a fancy team bus, all dressed in matching tracksuits, accompanied by a similarly attired coach and even a kit man. As you can imagine, we were all quite intimidated by this sight as we were at best a ragtag bunch of misfits and local lags.

30:29And you totally get, when a team arrives and they look professional, you're like, oh blimey, we're on for something here. Within the first three minutes of play, our worst fears were confirmed when we gave away a needless penalty, which they converted. Fast forward to half-time, well, we had recovered well enough to be 25-1 up. I had to read that about three times. 25! Our coach at the time kept warning us not to get too cocky as they will catch us on the break to which someone said, what, 25 times? Yeah. Absolutely redundant lesson, that, isn't it? It's like when I've been on the end of some hide-ins before.

31:04I can remember youth football, you'd be 12-15-0 by these teams. There was one team who was like a feeder club for I think Hibs in the league and so on and you'd think it absolutely happened. And it was the reverse. Our lads are going come on lads we just need a goal to get back in this game. It's like 20 minutes left for 12-0. There's a thing that happens in youth football as well isn't there? I remember a team I played for and there was a team I think they were called Great Danes who were like they were just men. It was like have you all had the same growth spurt on the same day? Because I was like oh my god they're all shaving before kick-off.

31:36Yeah, you were like eight years old, yeah. He said, we ended up winning 33-1. Every player on our team, including subs, scored. We even took the goalie out so he could get one, which he eventually did after missing four sitters. Our forwards scored eight. I was left back and got four myself. Wow. Numerous people scored, braces and hat-tricks. All in all, we squeaked through that one. Yeah. I'd like to hear from anyone who played for Nelson Sports Club to see how you ended up with so much, you know, such a professional set-up for such poor output. I want to know, did they always shit themselves when they took the lead

32:09it's quite the opposite of shutting up shop that isn't it scored too early 33-1 it's always the one I don't get again I've been in games where we'd lost like 15-1 how did we get that one yeah it doesn't make sense there we are very little does these days fish no but hopefully this email from Phil will make sense what's your opinion on the rumoured expansion of the championship playoffs from four teams to six teams do you think it's a good idea or just diluting the product even further if a team that's finished eighth can be promoted to the Premier League? I don't like it. You don't? No. I think that a lot of people are using that word diluted and I think that's probably about right.

32:50The eighth team potentially going up. The championship playoffs or all the playoffs I understand were a little bit controversial at the time but I think most people would say it's worked. So I suppose the argument is it's unfair on the team that finished third and a lot of people were against it at the time and then they brought it in and it's been a success so why wouldn't this do that i do think though that sometimes you can get something right and then just leave it i think by football is is mainly like that in terms of the rules and so on and and tournament setups i think generally speaking it just requires little tweaks but you might argue this is a little tweak but championship playoff there's a lot of games in a championship season.

33:29To add another one or two, I think that's a bit much. A bit of context on the format of how this would work is that the teams who finish third and fourth are automatically in the semis. Then there are two eliminator games to determine who else makes it in. And I think that probably dilutes it less, greases the pole further for those in fifth and sixth who it becomes much harder for. And the games are, they're one-off games when they happen at the home of the higher-ranked club. So I think that's an interesting sort of quirk to those rules. I understand what you're saying, but I do think given the journey you'd have to go on if you were the eighth place to finish team to then get promoted into the Premier League, it would be a hell of an achievement.

34:09You'd have to... It would be an achievement in itself. And I think from an entertainment perspective, it's bound to be great. I imagine if they bring it in, regardless of the heartbreak of the clubs who don't make it up, it will probably be popular. it will probably stay. Fix your congestion would be a bit of a thing come May. I wouldn't be appalled if they brought it in. And I know that in the National League they extended the playoffs. But that was... Again, if someone was making the argument you go from one team going up which is the league winner which does kind of stifle it a bit. Especially if they run away with it.

34:49They then have that agreement with the Football League where they open it up to two teams. And I think that was right to then have their little playoff spot. or do it as they do. If it was to go to three teams, though, which I don't think it will, but if it will, I don't think you would have to change it that much. I feel that... I don't know what it is. I think it is just right the way it is because especially now, and maybe... I don't know. Is it wise to make decisions based on specifically the last two years of the Premier League? But maybe the season will blow it out of the water if two of the promoted sides can stay up.

35:27But that's only a fairly recent trend. I put the caveat in there saying that. I just wonder if, again, seldom do I feel that the team finishing eighth in the championship was ready to go up to the Premier League. Some people will immediately argue and say, well, is it ready or not? You go up there, you take the payments, you just get stuck in. The summer is a hugely important part. As you can see, as I'm saying this, I am sort of pondering it because I think this is a tough one. Whatever they decide, again, I wouldn't feel too aggrieved even if my team was down there I mean you've supported Fulham while they've been in the championship from if Fulham were in the championship this season surely a further route into promotion would be welcome right well it's tempting for me to sit here and go I think it would be way more entertaining when I'm not likely to have a dog in the fire anytime soon, hopefully ever and I do wonder if people who are supporters of championship clubs would think, oh, actually, this perhaps kind of affects the integrity of the league.

36:29But also, it's entirely plausible that they might think, well, yeah, we do want to get promoted and this makes that a bit easier. Yeah, it does. You're right. I mean, I think that if you're a side who have gone down from the Premier League and you're floundering away as Forrest and Leeds have particularly found over the years, you think if the percentages of you getting promoted are increased that little bit, of course, you're going to bite anyone's hand off for that. my point I just keep coming back to is I just think the balance is right at the moment to be honest with you. I think that if you finish fifth and sixth and then you've got to have another game, that is a bit of a kick in the teeth.

37:06But then it was in the 1980s when you finished third and you think, oh, hang on a minute, we've got to go. Because I've seen Fulham finish third in the championship and play well and they did indeed under Scott Parker go up through the playoffs. and we all accept that so I mean what do you think Fish on with regard to this? I know what you mean about keeping it as it is because it's clean and just because these things or just because there's constant development within the game not everything needs to be developed further I would take a bit of an issue with I suppose the reticence to have a team from 8th potentially going all the way and getting through partly because of what Jim said because you know the feat to do it would be such that actually would it would be impressive even in isolation of the playoffs but also there hasn't been much difference between eighth and sixth which is as it stands the last playoff position so last year there was only a point sorry two points splitting Bristol City and Millwall the season before that there was four points between Borough and Norwich City and then the season before that there was only one point between Millwall and Sunderland who finished sixth so once you get that far down what ends up happening with the championship and I appreciate this is more in recent times because of the Premier League thing that you mentioned before about the parachute payments is the top two or top three they're in a league of their own and then often you have these weird maybe one or two floating teams in the actual playoff places themselves who have timed it really well yeah yeah or just like aren't you know will come into the last two months of the season pretty much guaranteed of a playoff spot and then the people fighting for that last last spot so i don't think there's you know there'll be too great a disparity between eighth and sixth at that part of the season but i do agree with you this seems a bit cleaner and yeah while while you are giving a bit more insurance well actually no real insurance it's the same as it was for the teams in um in third and fourth as it were with the championship but yeah there is a bit more jeopardy for the other two teams i mean i understand when you say there's not that much difference between eight eighths and sixths but i do think there's a big difference between eighth and third and i think it's too much of a difference i think that's at the point again i go back to that word diluted because again like because you could then go well actually the top 12 go through but the 12th and 12th to 7th don't play the third it's kind of like and that's where the dilution is clearly you know if you look at the way they do it in Major League Soccer with the two East and West divisions.

39:41What is it, the top eight that go through? I think the majority of teams go through the league that qualify for, into the playoffs and all that, for a chance to win the MLS Cup. Then there are the majority of teams in each conference is the word I'm looking for. Now, that's the way they do it, and I've not got any particularly strong opinion on that. Again, very different format. Well, it's a very different format, yeah. But I'm just sort of saying to you that, again, like if you go to eight, are we then going to start talking about, you know, 12 or whatever in the future? And this is my point is I just feel that they've got it right.

40:17Because, again, when I started saying that, Jim, you kind of sort of turned your nose up and went, well, 10 and 12. So you're saying that there is somewhere, there is a sweet spot. No, no, what I did that was that I think, essentially, we need to take this question on its merit and kind of answer it based on this particular proposal rather than looking ahead to further expansions of it. But the exercise in doing that was... Because that would never happen in football. I think they should have the playoffs in Saudi Arabia, personally, but that's a different issue. I think every team should have the opportunity to get promoted.

40:48Yeah. And so, I don't know, you play each other once or twice. There you go. Then you have a knockout league, like an idea. And then just whoever's in those positions at the end. You tally the points up at the end. Yeah. And then they go into another situation where they play each other again. one off and you just keep going until someone's like you know what I can't be asked and they should be promoted because they get it so should we have another league in between the Premier League and the Championship which is called Premier League Purgatory if you get relegated you go into that they actually do have that in the NBA they have an in-season tournament which is just the same teams playing against each other which then goes towards their final standings pointless it's absurd it's American stuff why have you not grown out of this I've grown out of it you watch the NBA all the time Yeah, I know, it's fun.

41:37Like WWF or WWE now. You watch it when you're a kid and you move on from it. Thanks for listening to The Football Rebel, part of the A-Colz Creator Network. I'm back tomorrow with Vish and Luke, where we'll be reacting to England's trip to Latvia. Please do send us your responses, opinions and questions for next week's mailbag and subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Nice one, everybody. See you tomorrow.

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