Mailbag: Has Pep Guardiola’s Manchester City failed in Europe?

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3:12Luke Moore: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Football Ramble Mailbag. Pep Guardiola, David Ryron, bursting onto the scene of the orders of the day. It's Tuesday, 17th of March. I'm Marcus Speller. I'm Jar Jar Binks. And I'm Jim Campbell.

3:36Luke Moore: Right. You're going to do the whole show in the style of Jar Jar Binks then? No way. You think you're being big, do you? No way, I can't. It's insensitive to do it in that voice. Would you like to tell the listeners why you said that? Because to prepare us for the shows every time we record, I like to type a really serious thing into Jack GBT and ask them to explain it to me in the style of Jar Jar Binks and then read it to you guys to make you laugh because I'm a disgusting clown who needs validation and attention at all times. Yes, we won't say what the subject matter was. It was Slobodan Pralyak killing himself at The Hague for war crimes.

4:08Luke Moore: That it was. There we go. Yeah. To be fair, you've... You stoked the fire. Don't complain about the smoke. Contain the line, glug, glug. It did. It did. It did. I didn't think you'd be the one who would say checkmate in that conversation, but fair enough. I've been done now. He has been playing chess. He has been playing chess. Absolutely, yeah. Maybe we'll do one of these Jar Jar Bink things on a Ramble Uncut when you're next on. Probably not. No, probably not. You can do it yourself. Luke's told you how to do it. Do it yourself, exactly. And now it is mailbag time. It's a completely free resource, remarkably.

4:38Luke Moore: Remarkably. Get involved with the mailbag. Message us on X, Blue Sky, or Instagram at FootballRamble. Comment on YouTube. Email us at FootballRamble.com. And, of course, Friends of the Ramble. You get priority. patreon.com forward slash football ramble or sign up on YouTube. Do it! Here's a question from Moon on Discord, a very active member of the Discord community, always getting involved. Go on, Mooney. In the mailbag as well. He asks the following, has Guardiola's time at Manchester City been a failure in terms of the Champions League? Being at the helm of the richest and most dominant side in the so-called best league in the world for his almost 10-year tenure, you're only winning one Champions League.

5:14Is that really a good enough return on basically infinite investment for one of the greatest managers of all time?

5:20Luke Moore: So this is a really interesting question because... It's not infinite investment though, is it? It's not infinite investment. It's not allowed to be, is it? No, it's not allowed to be that. There's 115 reasons why it may come back to bite them. But I think the central point of the question is valid. They're a well-oiled machine and... Pun intended? Very much so. And we will see what happens with the outcome of the PEPSTIN files much later. we can't factor that in just yet I think it does make careful Jim because we're on the same island it does feel a bit harsh to say that that it's that he's underachieved with him and the reason I say that is because of how hard the Champions League is to win it is the highest standard of this sport anywhere I think it's much better than international football now and I don't think any team should be expected to dominate it.

6:17Luke Moore: I think it's freakish that Real Madrid have managed to do it and City themselves have come up against Real Madrid a lot of times, like an amount of times that must just feel like some sort of supernatural punishment at this point if you're a City fan. I think on the flip side to that, the final they lost to Chelsea when he didn't play a defensive midfielder and both Rodri and Fernandinho were in the matchday squad and he also played with Raheem Sterling and Riyad Mahrez up front with Kevin De Bruyne just in behind when he had Sergio Aguero available as well. I think that one is, as much as you have to credit Chelsea for being the team that actually won it on the day, when you look at those decisions, when he had another final in front of him there, I think maybe, maybe.

7:01Luke Moore: Yeah. Well, I mean, and of course, maybe that influenced the FA to overlook Guardiola and get Tuchel in later. Maybe. That's definitely what happened. no I I mean to answer the question directly I suppose in I suppose yes is what I would kind of say I mean I remember Alex Sir Alex Ferguson to me and to the rest of us said that he the disappointment that he had a little bit for his time at Manchester United was of course so many years was only winning two Champions Leagues yeah he said we qualified for lots of quarters and lots of semis but we haven't won it enough I think he said yeah and I think if you look at the time when he was managing certainly in the 90s and I would still say the noughties as well more teams could win it as Porto showed and there's other examples it was a you know there was a bigger the wealth and the quality wasn't as concentrated at certain teams as it is now Man City being one of those sides and I think it's But with Guardiola, I take your point, Jim, despite the name of the competition, it is a cup competition.

8:14Luke Moore: And a cup competition, due to its nature, it's not as a given, as a league title. I think with Pep, would he have, with all that money, with the quality that they had, with the quality that he has, he's very much delivered on the home front. You cannot question what he's achieved domestically. But you're not answering it directly. You said to answer this question directly. Well, I gave the answer and I said yes. Okay, fine. And then I'm elaborating on that, saying it's a little bit more nuanced, but ultimately I would probably come down with yes. But the reasons why it's a very soft yes is because of what he's done domestically.

8:48Luke Moore: And also, the win that they did achieve in the Champions League was a part of a treble. Yeah, sure. And I think that softens the yes, because that was such an incredible season, and that blew everybody out the wall. Guardiola's Manchester City, for times, whether they won the Champions League in particular seasons or not I still think they were the best team in Europe or they were the team to beat they got that unequivocally winning a treble and that is up in lights and that is such a huge collector's item but I think that there were certain times in the Champions League when you mentioned about Real Madrid you know they put in one of the greatest performances I've ever seen when they hammered them in that second lane was it 4-0 against Carlo Ancelotti's Real Madrid but there was another time when they lost to them on penalties how on earth they didn't go through there and that was where he had to maybe show a little bit of canniness, which Real Madrid do.

9:38Luke Moore: So I have to say it is soft, yes, because it's a cup competition and there are so many variables and da-da-da-da and because of what he achieved domestically, to say it was a bit of a failure and so on. I think they were going on all fronts and the victory they did get was such a special one and such a huge one. And also he was tasked of really changing so much of the culture with Manchester City in terms of European competition. I know that Mancini did a little bit and Pellegrini did a little bit, but it was still there. They had some weird relationship with the Champions League. Pep did finally put that to bed when they won it.

10:14Luke Moore: But Moon's question, when he lays it out like that, you have to say that the odds kind of stacked in their favour at times. I think it is a touch disappointing. I do think what you say about Sir Alex Ferguson actually does show how hard it is. Again, as I mentioned at the start, I think that actually, when you look at his own thoughts on that, Ferguson's own thoughts, and the fact that he won it twice in such a long time with Man United, when they were one of the best teams in the world, and again, kind of comparable to a degree in terms of the finances they had. I would disagree with that, if I may, Jim, respectfully, because in the 90s, he was...

10:53Don't disagree disrespectfully.

10:56Luke Moore: Disrespect the ball, that's all I need. Turn the shut the fuck up. I'll respect both of yours. but I think though in the 90s Ferguson was feeling out the Champions League choice of word after that he was feeling out the Champions League particularly with Juventus as well and eventually got there but again as I say into the noughties they would have won more if Guardiola's Barcelona hadn't come along they would have won more if Juventus and AC Milan weren't so good but this is what I'm saying about the Champions League there's always going to be those teams it's pretty hard to win it indeed but with Guardiola's Man City I think there were fewer teams.

11:30Luke Moore: I think that the way the ecosystem had gone with PSG not quite at the races yeah, you had Barcelona, Real Madrid I think with Manchester, they were unquestionably the big force in Europe, in a way Manchester United weren't because of the ecosystem at the time and so therefore, it's a soft yes from me. If you look at the teams who've won it since Guardiola arrived at City, Real Madrid have won it four times ridiculously, Liverpool have won it Bayern have won it, Chelsea won it in that one where you could argue that City overthought it, which is obviously a problem he's had as well. City themselves have won it, and PSG have won it.

12:04Luke Moore: And none of those were not worthy winners. No, I agree. It's a really tough competition to win. PSG have found it incredibly tough. The money thing isn't the answer to all of it, because if it was, PSG would have won it way before they did. There's loads of different factors. The comparison between Guardiola and Ferguson falls down, chiefly for something Marcus has touched on there, is that Ferguson took over United when they're in the absolute doldrums. If you read his first autobiography, which is actually the really good one, which ends, I think, at the end of 99. Before he starts having a go at some of his plays.

12:39Well, yeah, but the one he released later is terrible. But the one that ends in 99, a lot of it is about, you know, not just bringing up to Man Utd, to where they need to be, but it's also him trying to instill into his players that the concentration level and the standard is a different world from domestic football in England at the time. So he's not only bringing in players who have got experience and signing players for big money because United were this kind of financial colossus of the age, but he's also having to do a complete overhaul from them being in the doldrums at the start when he takes over.

13:15Well, because English clubs

13:16Luke Moore: were banned as well around that time. Exactly, because they had no experience of playing in Europe for a large part of the period before that. And then obviously in 1999 they finally get there. To me, you can afford to be more critical of Guardiola at City for not winning more than you can Ferguson at United. Now I know City were a different club entirely when they were taken over, but there had been several high quality managers that were at City before that who'd done a lot of the groundwork. And it was kind of really all there for Guardiola. I think the best answer to this question is thinking about how Guardiola feels about it and I think he'd be pretty disappointed.

13:54I agree with you. I think if you asked him when he was honest, he would say, fuck, I should have won loads more than one. They've been knocked out

13:59Luke Moore: by Monaco, Spurs and Lyon. Exactly. Exactly, right? So there's opportunities there. Look, Ferguson said the same thing. He thinks they should have won more. I would agree with that. I think your Barcelona puts a really good one. Guardiola is Barcelona, ironically. But I don't think you can make the argument that you shouldn't have won at least one more. Because with that Barcelona side he created, one of the best club sides of all time, right? He won two. in, what was it, three or four seasons he was in charge. Now, I appreciate they got Messi and you look at the team, but where he got Man City, I think it was pretty close to that.

14:29At some point it was. Exactly, yeah. But also, with Barcelona, the other thing interesting about Barcelona is, Barcelona are seen as a massive royalty club of Europe, and rightly so, for many different reasons. The players have had come through, the managers, the iconic kind of brand and culture. But when Guardiola won it with them, Dan won it since was it 93 or 94? No Frank Reichardt

14:52Luke Moore: had won it oh sorry once but they've not got anywhere near the Champions League European Cup titles like Real Madrid Reichardt got them back to where they were yeah but then we're getting into yeah so I think the answer is yes how hard or soft it's a firmer yes than your yes okay I just think as part of the deal if you are if you are going to go to a club that's ready made for you they were appointing kind of football administrators straight as at City for years before they knew Gualeo was going to come. They knew they were going to get him. It was all set up for him, right? And I think he's brilliant.

15:25I think he's, for me, Sir Alex Ferguson is the best club manager in English football history. I think Gualeo is second. I think, though, if you are going to sit at the top table and you're going to take all these trappings and you're going to take all this backing, you do have to be judged on your achievements. And I think domestically his achievements have been sensational. But European-wise, they've been poor overall.

15:47Luke Moore: George has been in touch on YouTube George says Has the standard of commentary genuinely worsened over the years? On Saturday West Ham fans had to sit through Darren Fletcher endlessly arguing with co-coms on if Bernardo Silva meant his goal Even when West Ham scored Fletcher still persisted on raising the point As a neutral fan it just got tired Are we ready for another firm yes from Luke Moore? Can I answer this by paraphrasing Eminem? Sure My Football Rumble co-host don't like talking about other broadcasts and slagging them off but I do so fuck them and fuck you too I think the the answer is again a very very firm yes but I think there's interesting context yes I think we're now living in the content era the banter content era and I think we've you know we're being self aware we've kind of you know we've played a part in that in the words of Alan Pardew we've played our part we have but I think the problem is decision makers at the top of broadcasters and exec producers and producers I don't think sufficiently understand the type of broadcasting that needs to address the occasion some things are sacred right commentary shouldn't be like it is now it never has been in the past this is not an old man shouting at a cloud saying this shouldn't be happening hell in a handcart commentary is by its definition there to compliment what you're watching or in the radio what you're listening to now it's no coincidence that radio commentary still brilliant because it's been unchanged because the role has not changed you watch a TNT sports broadcast of a football match now and it is basically like listening to a podcast while you're watching a game right so give us the job and I think the reason for that is to do with attention spans it's to do with the content era we're living in it's to do with half a mind on if a producer of a big broadcast for a rights holder is going to be judged keep their job and be successful they are unquestionably being asked to think about things like clipping things up for socials, you know, shareable moments, memes, snackable, glanceable fun, right?

17:52All the awful shit that you have to put up within our industry, right? But,

17:55Luke Moore: and that is a quote, by the way. The reality is, and I don't know how anyone, if you guys feel comfortable saying this, you obviously don't have to if you don't want to, I'll say it, Darren Fletcher is just bad. He's just bad at it. And for some reason, the people who hire him think he's good, right? And he's not good because he's far too over the top. He doesn't let the content breathe. And he also endorses and enables other people who could be good to be further shit in terms of co-commentators. So the only reason why I would, in the interest of balance, say this is Darren Fletcher clearly, as anyone is with a microphone in front of their face commentating on football.

18:33It's a hard job. It's a hard job. I know you're going to say that.

18:35Luke Moore: But he is a very competent commentator. But unfortunately, for whatever reason, he or his employers or whatever have decided to go down this route. And as you said... It's a stylistic choice. Exactly. And that's where we... I don't think it's a stylistic choice at all. I disagree. I think it's an ego choice. Well, it might be a stylistic choice made by him, for sure. Yeah, indeed, yeah. So that's what it is. But, you know, I remember the great Barry Davis sort of bemoaning the fact of the changing styles of commentary when he was kind of on his way out. But your earlier point about the radio commentary, I mean, listening to John Murray on the radio is wonderful.

19:06Luke Moore: Like, that is sacred. And I don't think... They can't make it any differently because it's radio, right? But they could though because podcasts are audio. I know we're all filmed now. Yeah, but I just don't think the role of a radio commentator has changed that much. And good. Because there's no reason for it to change. Indeed. And I think sometimes that you can have – I think people, they go too far. And I think you have things that are sacred. And there's – having these – with radio commentary, having that sort of strand run through decades of it, I think it's a glorious thing. It's really important.

19:43But let me ask you this then.

19:44Luke Moore: If I may, and I think with TV, we have seen it change as we've talked about there. But when there's, for example, a World Cup or a Euros, where there's so many games, you do get maybe one or two different voices on there or you hear them a little bit more than perhaps you used to. We remember in Russia 2018, was it John Champion, Ali McCoy? There was a, there was a, it was lovely to hear that. It was, that was... Yeah, but Ali McCoy's is terrible because Darren Fletcher's made it worse. Well, indeed. And so, and that's what I mean. When you get something that's a little bit different, then that's fine.

20:15Luke Moore: But it still has to be within the confines of the standards and the tradition and so on. You can push the bat a little bit, but when you kind of just try and chuck the boat all the way up to the horizon and go, right, fine, let's be like the kids or whatever, that's when it goes bad. And I think that's the case with so much stuff. It's not just commentary. I also think there's an element of familiarity breeding contempt with examples like Champion and Ellie McCoyst. There's revisionism about Clive Tilsley now. Everyone's like, oh, he was brilliant. He was the best. People used to say awful things to him on Twitter all the time, stuff like that.

20:47Luke Moore: That's been a bit revisionist. I think the kind of... I do prefer the more traditional type of commentary where the commentator is essentially a reverent guide to what is happening in the game and with the sport in general. Now, I saw a really interesting interview with John Murray a little while ago where he didn't name Darren Fletcher, but he did say, I don't like it when commentators use footballese, things like worldy, for example. That's the language of the pundit or the fan. I don't mind if it's the summarizer or the pundit because that's their world. You're trying to tune into what the fan would want, but I still think as a commentator in terms of language, you have to be one step away from that.

21:22Luke Moore: And I could not agree with that. He's one of the best around, and I think that is a great example of how it should be. and what we've really lost on TV. There's far too much opinion from commentators now as well. I would say also that, you know, the criticism that we used to chuck, before Grey and Keys got kind of bombed out for all that awful shit, right? Which we all agree with. The reason, part of the reason they were bombed out was because no one liked them anymore, right? I mean, internally at Sky Sports, right? There was no attempt to defend them, all the rest of it. And the feeling from not just the people at Sky Sports internally, but the viewer as well, and I remember you saying this, Marcus, at the time, is they thought people were tuning in for them.

22:09They didn't think, they weren't acknowledging of the fact. We're part of the action. Yeah, they weren't acknowledging. Most people are like, yeah, get them out of the way because I want to watch the Liverpool Man night again or whatever. And I think there's a definite energy of that with the TNT particularly commentary now. It's like, I think unquestionably, Darren Fletcher thinks that people are a big part of what he's doing is people can't wait to hear him and whether that's true or not I think that's a fatal mistake for a commentator because the commentator is there to compliment the action you want to go away from a football match thinking what a great game or what a shit game whatever you don't want to be thinking about what the commentator said and I think the example that was used in the question from George is spot on like Fletcher was going on for ages about that and he does it all the time he goes to a point where he starts criticising players and criticising managers and tactical innovation and stuff it's not what you're here for mate it's not the point of it and to that point from that quote you used there absolutely spot on very very very good

23:08Luke Moore: I think the moment you think that you know and again what we're doing the moment you think you're more important than even the sub but we're separated from all that shit sure but if you're if you think for the moment the moment you think you're more important than even the third choice sub-keeper. You're done. Yeah, definitely. The football is the most important thing which is why I think it's a shame that broadcasters feel, oh maybe we have to be a bit more like this or a bit like this. It's like you've got the rights. People will tune in. Of course they will. It's not an excuse to be bad of course but it's an excuse to build on the fine traditions that this country has with regard to commentary and so on and so forth.

23:52Luke Moore: Anyway, Coming up after this, players that exploded onto the football scene.

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26:06Luke Moore: From Matt on email In the Rambler's years of watching football what's been your favourite explosion onto the scene? This has been inspired surely from Max Dowman's performance at the weekend Surely, surely because that was an explosion onto the scene, wasn't it? Luke, kick us off with an obvious one. Mine has to be Wayne Rooney. Has to be. I would have been 21, I think, when he burst onto the scene in 2002. He was 16 as well. He'd been an unused sub for Everton against Southampton and obviously he came on and scored and did what he did against Arsenal. But the reason it was so interesting, I think, is because we have the benefit of hindsight to know what he went on to achieve.

26:50And it was very much the sign of things to come rather than just a flash in the pan. But not only that, I was always a complete nerd about young footballers and exciting footballers from all around the world, really. And I used to subscribe to World Soccer Magazine. I used to subscribe. In fact, I still do subscribe to 442 because I believe print media is important to support. But they always had a feature in 442 called The Boys A Bit Special. I don't know if you guys remember it, where they would profile teenage players. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember Rooney being on that and everyone's kind of raving about him.

27:24And then a friend of mine, so I was 21, I'd just finished uni and a friend of mine had also finished uni but he was in journalism. He still works in football journalism now, works for the BBC. But he at the time was either shadowing or work experiencing or entry level kind of cub reporter up in the North West and he was saying to us in the pub when he would come back down for weekends and stuff, he was saying, everyone is raving about this way. like everyone but he's well known he's going to be the guy

27:51Luke Moore: that's always exciting when you hear it through a grapevine like that we couldn't look up we couldn't look up highlights of him on YouTube or anything like that so we was like waiting for him to play and obviously when he finally came on and it exploded the way he did it was amazing and then like I say that kind of two year period you know up to and including Euro 2004 it was amazing it was amazing to see an English player so good and so exciting and I'd also end by saying this. This might be slightly controversial, but I hope I articulate that in a way that you guys know what I mean because I'll just say it.

28:25The thing with Wayne Rooney is that... Actually, let me back up. The best ever forward player, the best ever striker in my lifetime is the original one out there, right? He's the best striker in my view.

28:39Luke Moore: Who himself burst onto the scene in European football. He did, he did, he did. Under Robson at PSV, right? Yeah, but of course, we were kind of unaware of that because of the world and the reasons stated. But let me make the point. There's never been a striker that I've seen that's been as good as him. And I think Messi and Cristiano had a different player, so I think it's probably a separate argument. But anyway, the thing about Ronaldo that made him so good, there's loads of things, but two main things I would focus on that made him so good were that he had the option to go through you or around you.

29:07He was strong enough and physical enough to just batter you, but he was also skillful enough to go around you. And you don't often get that in players. They tend to be one or the other. and Rooney was also both. He wasn't as good but he was also satisfied both criteria and that made him a tremendously exciting footballer and that's why I think for me he's the favourite and I think he's the closest we've had to the original Ronaldo without being quite as good but when he came when he burst onto the Premier League scene it was tremendously exciting.

29:38Luke Moore: And he really did it with a plumb as well. The goal was obviously against Arsenal which was annoying for me. Against David Seaman as well. But it was a great goal from outside the box. It was really, really eye-catching. It was instantly an iconic moment. Wenger gave a great quote about it, didn't he? Wenger said after the game, I think it might have been after that game, or he was definitely asked to comment on it, he said he's the best English player that he's seen. Full stop, basically. He did seem to arrive fully formed as well. That was part of it, wasn't it? Well, I think that was part of the intrigue.

30:05Luke Moore: He had man strength really young. Yeah, I mean, yeah, he looks like a, you know, a 35-year-old experienced boxer. Do you know what I mean? Like, it was incredible. I think when you have a player burst onto the scene, it is that, it's the fearlessness, I think, that people find very attractive and very, you know, inspiring or incredible. They've had no experience to knock the edge off them. Yeah, and they're just not timid. And you think, how on earth, that young are you doing this? But Rooney, again, there was that toughness, as you say. I mean, I remember you once said about Ronaldo many years ago, when he, the original Ronaldo, when he runs a defender, it's like a herd of elephants are running at you.

30:42Luke Moore: Do you know what I mean? Which I thought was one of your best, actually. and I think with Rooney there was a little bit of that I know that running at players yes he did it but I think maybe we think of Rooney as doing a lot of other stuff as well but again and when England were qualifying for Euro 2004 which of course Rooney would shine in his best tournament for England I remember in the games there was two games that England played against Turkey as they were called back then and they were very very angry encounters. The one where David Beckham missed the penalty in one of them? Yes, he missed the penalty in Istanbul, I think it was, when he sort of slipped.

31:23Luke Moore: And I remember Rooney being deployed as a sort of number 10 in that home game at Stadium Alight, funnily enough. And he was brilliant. It reminded me of almost like a young Paul Gascoigne, in part. And also, I remember in the game that happened in Turkey, when at half time there was, what was his name? Alpine, I think, who played football over here. Again, it was a really tempestuous match and there was chat that somebody said something to Heskey in the tunnel and he went for a vlog. And the little you saw on the camera, I just remember the 17-year-old Wayne Rooney fully getting stuck in. And for me being about 19 or whatever at the time, I was just a bit like, oh, God, look at him.

32:05Luke Moore: Do you know what I mean? Again, it brings out the real football fan in you. He was also famously very complimentary of his Everton teammates as well when he first broke into the first-in squad. He would subsequently be. He's like, clap. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man, what a player he was. Yeah. So that'd be mine, Rooney. I've taken the best one, probably. Yeah. I mean, I was never going to pick that one because obviously he burst onto the scene against Arsenal. So I think this one's kind of obvious as well. It's sort of the very nature of this demands that they're obvious, I suppose. I think I'm going to look at the phrase explosion onto the scene and I'm going to take that to include the international scene.

32:40Luke Moore: And I'm going to say Michael Owen's goal against Argentina. Now, we all knew about Michael Owen. You could just say Michael Owen for this. But that felt like, well, that moment in particular felt like the arrival of a global star. And there was that sense at the time as an England fan, like, oh, wow, what might we have on our hands here? This guy could lead the line for a long time. And he was very good for England for a long time, perhaps. Obviously, injuries robbed Michael Owen of the full kind of ability of the player that I think we could have seen there. But that moment felt, especially being a kid at the time, it's like, he's nearly a kid.

33:13Luke Moore: Yeah. Yeah. This is like, I've scored that in a way. I know what you mean. Yeah. That feeling was absolutely incredible. And we were still at school when he was. Yeah, exactly. Michael I was basically the same school year as me, I think. Yeah. That was six years before Wayne Rooney at year 2004, which feels impossible. And I mean, made his debut for England in 98. Yeah. I remember when he kind of arrived on the scene. I mean, I think that was scoring a goal like that. in a knockout game in a World Cup you know that is very much against Argentina as well yeah that is very much bursting onto the international scene scored his penalty in the shootout as well and sort of celebrated by doing a little hand side saying oh I put it in the top corner you know looked like he had his older brother's kit on all bagging yeah because they were all extra large shirts oddly he also once he came in at Liverpool he bases played all the time do you remember the goal he scored away at Wimbledon they lost 2-1 Liverpool is that his debut I think that might have been his debut it was certainly I think it was his first senior goal.

34:09It's the bottom corner.

34:10Luke Moore: Yeah, he's side-footed, sort of Thierry Henry-esque into the bottom corner. And people were talking about Owen and we saw that and I'm thinking, it was a nice finish, but what has this guy got to offer? Because again, I was about 15, 16 myself at the time and his reputation grew and he's saying to the England squad. But in the build-up to that goal against Argentina, which of course, I know England lost the game, but you're talking about the individual. He scored against Romania in the group stage when England were down and were pressing and he scored and then Dan Patrescu he kind of slips over at quite close range and volleys it in yeah and that was that was the moment where it's like oh my goodness you know what do we have here and that was the reason that Hoddle started him against Argentina really that you had this guy who was a world beater and then it would I mean you remember the hat trick he scored at St.

34:58Luke Moore: James' Park would have been the following season with the famous you know hand rubbing celebration but the thing is there are actually some quite interesting similarities between Owen and Rooney different types of players Owen's a kind of pace merchant, great finisher, plays on the shoulder, and was essentially, I mean, as I said, by his own kind of admission, you know, after about five or six years, he just wasn't the same player. He was a whippet. Yeah, but he had had injuries, and then he lost his pace, and I suppose he couldn't sufficiently adapt his game to be genuinely impressive as a forward beyond that.

35:29And, you know, that's his assessment, not mine. But at the time, you know, you're looking at young English forwards breaking through in spite of the system rather than because of it. Now, England produces players all the time now because it seems like they've got their production line finally kind of squared away, you know, and they can just generate all these amazing players because it's quite a popular country, because the passion is there and the money's there and all the rest of it, right? But back then, we didn't really produce players. The lament all the time was why don't we produce players like that player or that player or this player, right?

36:05And it went on for ages. And these guys were absolute exceptions to the rule, which made them kind of doubly exciting because you just didn't see it happen as often. And so I just think there were different types of players, but the way they were treated and the way they came through was actually fairly similar. Quite explosive, forward players, scored quite a lot of goals. Owens was, of course, just based around pace and finishing, which on its own is just super exciting. like you're not you're not ever realistically going to get as excited about a centre back breaking through as you are a forward player of that nature

36:40Luke Moore: yeah and it's the that pace is the nature of a player that gets you out of your seat right because straight away the moment they're on the ball you can expect something to happen and then sometimes it does I think a little bit of an honourable mention for a 17 year old Danny Welbeck scoring a screamer from 30 yards on his debut to make it 4-0 to Man United against Stoke I don't remember that no I don't remember that goal I would have gone probably more absolutely brilliant I would have gone Rashford more than yeah people seem to do this against Arsenal a lot which has limited me I have to say I mean Rashford I remember the was it a brace he scored against Michelin but my answer is slightly different I've used a little bit of a creative licence this is a player bursting onto the Premier League scene specifically because I thought I knew Owen and Rooney with those answers would go and rightly so can you I just get ahead of this and say can you did Tom Kearney really burst into the Premier League scene.

37:33Luke Moore: I would argue all day long, Jim. He certainly bursted off it. But it's not... Right. No, what? He is. He's still in there. Yeah. Come on. How was the game on the weekend? It was great. He came on and made sure we got the clean sheet. What did he say? I hope none of you watched it. I hope no one else watched it. But that wasn't because of Ken. That was Monday's show. We're on Tuesday's show now. This is not an argument for today. Right. I'm putting the case forward that Kevin Phillips exploded onto the Premier League scene. And the reason why I've gone for Kevin Phillips is because, as I say, I wanted a little bit of creative license.

38:08Luke Moore: He'd been doing very, very good things in the first division as it was, the championship now, of course, with Sunderland. After scoring a fair few goals for Watford, he signs for Sunderland. Breaks a couple of scoring records for them and does very well. I mean, his first season for Sunderland in the championship. He scores over 30 goals in all competitions the following season. He scores 25 goals in 32 games. So when he gets to the Premier League, it's like, ooh, there was a bit of a buzz around this guy. And Sunderland, who of course had lost out to Charlton Athletic in that Mammoth penalty.

38:47Luke Moore: Well, I say Mammoth, an incredible game, ended four all, and then Charlton won all penalties. Great game of football. Phillips was involved in that. So when they got to the Premier League, it was like, oh, how's he going to do? Because, quite incredibly, when he, in that promotion season with Sunderland, before they'd gone up, he actually got an England call-up and he made his debut against Hungary. He never scored for England, did he? He didn't score for England, no, sadly. So it's fair to say he didn't burst onto the scene at an international level. But when he got to the Premier League, there were some people, including one or two pundits, saying, well, he's going to score four or five goals.

39:20Luke Moore: But there was a lot of chat around him, understandably so. First season in the Premier League, Wins the golden boot and is, I believe, still the only Englishman to win the European golden boot as well. He was... 30 Premier League goals. Yeah, him at 30 Premier League goals. Him and Quinn up front, of course, was a lovely partnership. Do you know what the most amount of goals Michael Owen ever scored in a single Premier League season? 18? Yeah, something like that. was it? Okay. So that gives you a perspective. Yeah. So, like I say, I knew to have Rooney and Owen rightly so being mentioned and we could have taken this elsewhere.

39:52Southern did really well. They finished right up there. in their first season in the Premier League as well.

39:56Luke Moore: Yeah, and he got 18 the next as well in all comps. So, you know, obviously there's a drop-off, but it's not like he was a one-season wonder. I think it's nice for Kevin Phillips to get a mention. Well, indeed it is, yeah. But as I say, winning that golden boot, European golden boot, particularly the only... Oh, sorry. Harry Kane, of course, got it with Bayern. He's probably got about 15 pounds now, isn't he? Yeah, true, true. Only once, but Kane. So until 2024, Kevin Phillips was the only Englishman to have won the European golden shoe. what we're talking about which has been around since the late 60s by the way Owen won the Ballon d 'Or as well we're talking about Kevin Phillips I forgot to mention that you know on Jim's behalf all these players they very very literally exploded rude they've literally exploded all over the scene I think though I think exploding onto the Premier League scene as I said there was a bit of chat about him can he do it can he not in that first season I think you and I are accepting it you haven't got to justify it I think we accept it okay just go to the break sorry I was talking about Tom Kearney alright Matt good question and got us talking.

40:54Luke Moore: Coming up after this is David Wright, the best goalkeeper in the world.

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42:38Luke Moore: Welcome back, everybody. This from Robin on Instagram says, is it finally time to ask the question, is David Raya the best goalkeeper in the world? I'm glad we're asking that question when Pete Donaldson's not here. Yeah, because we know his thoughts. You can ask, I mean, the question I'm asking here should feel comfortable, Robin, in asking that question whenever he wants. Well, I think Robin is comfortable. He doesn't have to put it off. He doesn't have to say, you know, it's about bloody time. Just ask it whenever you want. Well, Pete's obviously come out with an outrageous take about David Rea.

43:08Luke Moore: Although, is he warming to him? Anyway, he's not here. Jim, you are here. To be fair to Pete, that was the end of last season. Don't be fair to Pete. No, actually, forget Pete. So, I love David Rea. obviously I think he's a fantastic goalkeeper I watch him closely every game of course I do I think he's a very very very good goalkeeper I think for me the gold standard is still Thibaut Courtois I don't think he's as good as Thibaut Courtois he has made mistakes this season there's been a couple of miscommunications with Gabriel in particular against Sunderland and Wolves that have cost Arsenal goals possibly that's Gabriel's fault but either way he should be more organised than that Richarlison beating from distance as well in the North London derby at the Emirates Zubimendi couple were there as well, but it's still from a long, long way out.

43:51Luke Moore: Most keepers make mistakes, obviously. He's very good at coming back from those, even within a game, sort of keeping his cool. Very, very commanding when catching the ball, starts, attacks very well. That modern side of the game he's very good at. Shot stopping is very good. Sometimes he's not the tallest goalkeeper. He can't help that. Not going to hold that against him. That doesn't seem to affect what goes on with him. Not really, no. All keepers make mistakes, Jim. I mean, all keepers have those problems. Do you think he's size? Well, you said it, did you think he's size? Sometimes it's very, very, because we're talking about him in the context of being the best goalkeeper in the world here, which is why I'm analysing sort of every potential flaw.

44:31Luke Moore: I think it was one of the guys, the goal against Wolves, their first one, I think. Possibly his positioning was suspect there, but then people saying, oh, if he's a bit taller, he would have got that. He saved five penalties for Arsenal, having faced 20, nine of which were in shootouts, which is a pretty good record goes very early some of those shootouts it's been like oh he's effectively just given an open goal there but that record also you have to say is pretty good saved big penalties in the Champions League as well he's not Spain's number one possibly because they've heard him speak and maybe they think he's from Lancashire I don't trust him have you heard his accent?

45:07Luke Moore: yeah of course I do it's amazing hey I'm David from Spain he played a lot to our Blackburn Rovers he did yeah when he was very young so I think he's I wouldn't say he's the best goalkeeper in the world I think he's closer to he's more in that conversation than he's been at any point in his career so far I would argue I wouldn't quite say that he's the best would you say Luke I think he's come a long way since everyone was losing their shit when they signed him straight after they signed Aaron Ramsdale and I think it was clear that he's a much better keeper than Aaron Ramsdale then and now and I think he's part of the conversation I always say this so forgive me for saying it again, but it's the whole Tiger Woods thing.

45:48You know, all you can ask is to be a part of the conversation. It's impossible to answer these questions definitively. I've said before, I've got a lot of stick for it. I think Alisson is the best Premier League keeper I've seen. And some people will say, oh, Courtois better or Cech's better or Schmeichel's better. Yeah, fine. But for me, in terms of all round, you know, performance, whether it's presence or shot stopping or leadership or ball at his feet, or whatever, you know.

46:17Luke Moore: Goal scoring. Why quite. I think Alisson is the best Premier League goalkeeper to do it. That's just my... You'd still have Alisson. Yeah, I would. I think the mistakes thing is a red herring as it pertains to Raya or to any other keeper. I think goalkeepers now are asked to play a far more high-risk game than they ever have in the past. And it becomes far more relevant talking about, you know, outfield players' mistakes, which I never really mentioned unless they're catastrophic when compared to goalkeepers' mistakes. But at the same time, we're asking goalkeepers to effectively act as outfield players when they've got the ball at their feet, which was never the case before.

46:54Back 25 years ago, you would probably say, well, that keeper never makes a mistake. And that would be a big part of it because they're basically judged on their mistakes. You know, if they let a ball go under them or whatever, that's a really big thing. These days, the mistakes tend to be ball at the feet, misplaced pass, miscontrol, whatever, under pressure, right? So I think all keepers do that. So to me, that's a red herring because they're asked to do something which in a way is quite unreasonable because they train in such a different way. Anyway, in terms of all-round game, I think it's Alisson, but I think Unai Simón's a brilliant goalkeeper.

47:28He's kept Raya out the Spanish side for a fair amount of time, and Spain have had some great keepers over the years. I think Donnarumma's a fucking brilliant keeper. I think another red herring about him and the ball at his feet and all the rest of it. although you know again he's made mistakes so to me it's a difficult question and not an impossible question to answer I think Rye's brilliant I kind of always thought he was brilliant I think Alisson is better

47:49Luke Moore: Yeah I mean the three goalkeepers that were 1, 2 and 3 and the the best FIFA goalkeeper Oh Martinez would be in there yeah No that was 2025 Martinez was 2024 when he won it with the World Cup but it was yeah Gigi Donnarum was first T-Walko 12 second and Alisson third Sure Yeah as you said Luke I think he's in the I think he's beginning to get in the conversation. I think this season, if Arsenal go on to win the league and perhaps, you know, one or two other trophies, I think he will be seen as one of their best players in the league, which speaks volumes. I would definitely love to hear our listeners or our viewers on YouTube tell us what they think.

48:27Stick it in the comments, let us know what you think, give us a justification because it's a really interesting question because it's such a unique position.

48:32Luke Moore: It is. It certainly is. Should we finish up with this one from Fresh and Minty on the Discord? Go on, Minty. Nice to hear he's Fresh and Minty. if you could be in the centre of a huddle who would you want circled around you any girl group

48:47any girl group

48:48Luke Moore: any of them could be any of them yeah any of them doesn't matter Hepburn remember them no yeah just about Hepburn the reason why I remember them is they played at our school oh wow I didn't go to see them I was far too cool yeah obviously I was probably listening to Embrace's third album outside or do a Michael Jackson dance off in the other room you want to do Jack it was okay at the time kids calm down Hepburn were a four-piece British all-female female pop rock band. Released an album and three singles between 99 and 2000. Oh, I quit. I remember I quit. I quit. Yeah, I do remember that. Ended up doing so.

49:18Good answer, Marcus.

49:19Luke Moore: Yeah, Hepburn. Slightly problematic. Yeah. It's fine. Come on. I think they were probably older than me. I think it's better that we don't explain why to you if you don't already know. I'm going to say multiple Daniel Farkers. Just loads of Daniel Farkers. Oh, I see, Jim. I see where you're going with that. Tom Huddleston has to be involved somewhere, of course. Yeah. It's another Bukkake situation. oh for goodness sake that's my own fault I would go for weirdly enough my answer is actually any boy band right yeah yeah yeah yeah but maybe the polyphonic spree oh that's nice have enough members it'd be a massive huddle wouldn't it and if you were in the middle of a boy band would Barry Davis say it's boys own stuff I'd say one of you must have a mic give it a hand anyway I think we've answered that fresh and mint deep appreciate that thanks for listening to the Football Ramble part of the Agos Creator Network and oh here we go producer Charlie's put the outro in the slide Jar Jar Binks and Marcus take it away

50:16have a little drink of water try and not get us cancelled will you

50:22Luke Moore: well I'm only going to read what's put in front of me it's on Charlie isn't it it's on Charlie come on Rob Burgundy go fuck yourself San Diego would you like me to have a go at the impression yeah alright okay this is going to test me but as anybody who saw our live shows you know I've got Pingu in my locker. Yeah. So I'm going to feel I'm going to be there. Oh, me to ask you so kindly, please. It's Mandela. It's Mandela all over. It's Mandela me Pingu. It's pure intergalactic Mandela. It is. It is. Oh, come on. You can do this. It also hurts his throat, doesn't it? Oh, no. Right, here we go. It's been a good run.

51:02Luke Moore: I knew I'd get, I knew I'd get cancelled at some point. Oh, well, sod it. Just do the last sentence. Let's burst off the scene, shall we?

51:12Luke Moore: And if you're the wannabe friend of the ramble, then join in the conversation with us on the Discord, okay? There we are. The things we do. The things we do. For love. The things we do for love. See you tomorrow.

51:34All right. The Football Ramble is a Stack production and part of the Acast Creator Network.

52:05and full-blooded tackles football weekly. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and watch the full episodes on YouTube. This is Robert Mason, The Athletic Football Show. The men's warehouse is here to make you look and feel good no matter the occasion. From formal to casual, dressed down to dressed up, their in-store experts will help you find the right outfit for that thing you got on the calendar. And their on-site tailors will make sure the fit is perfect for your body. Suits, tuxes, sport coats, jeans, shorts, chinos, t-shirts, polos, loafers, sneakers, sandals, underwear. Get ready to look and feel good for anything from head to toe by visiting Men's Warehouse today.

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