Mailbag: Has player power gone too far?

0:00Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. You know when you finally get started on a project around the house and then five minutes in you realize you're missing one thing? Somehow it's always that one thing that sends you back to the store. That's why I love this from Lowe's. If you're a My Lowe's Rewards or My Lowe's Pro Rewards member, you get free same-day delivery. Honestly, Lowe's will make the run for you, making it that much easier to get what you need. Just place your order and Lowe's handles the rest. It seriously makes life so much easier, especially when you've already got a million things going on.

0:32Members get more at Lowe's. $25 minimum and loyalty membership required. Order eligible items by 2 p.m. Subject to weight and size restrictions and availability. Terms at lowes.com slash shipping terms. Where's your playlist taking you? Down the highway? To the mountains? Or just into daydream mode while you're stuck in traffic? With over 4 ,000 hotels worldwide, Best Western is there to help you make the most of your getaway, wherever that is. Because the only thing better than a great playlist is a great trip. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Book direct and save at bestwestern.com.

1:18This is Nick and Jack from The Best One Yet, and we are excited to tell you about Walmart business. Staying ahead of business trends means moving fast and adapting quickly. Walmart business helps you simplify operations so you can focus on building the next big thing. Find exactly what your organization needs with their ever-expanding business assortment and everyday low prices. Keep your momentum going fast with reliable shipping and fulfillment. Eligible organizations can take advantage of tax-free shopping, both in-store and online, saving you more while getting you everything you need. It's Walmart built for your business.

1:48Sign up for a free Walmart business account today at business.walmart.com. I'm Jake Stouck, co-founder and CEO of Serval. We built Serval to automate the IT work that slows companies down. Onboarding, password resets, access to applications, my laptop stopped working. While employees wait for help, their real work is put on hold. IT desperately wants to automate this work, and that's why they need Serval. You just tell Serval what you want to automate in plain English, and it's built. No drag-and-drop workflows, no expensive consultants. Employees get unblocked and IT teams go from drowning in tickets to building what actually matters.

2:27With Serval, IT becomes the AI engine powering the entire company. This is a new way to run IT. We guarantee you'll automate 50 % of all tickets and we'll prove it to you in a free four-week pilot. Go to serval.com slash tickets. That's S-E-R-V-A-L dot com slash tickets.

3:16Thank you. now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV hydration that goes wherever life takes you.

3:51and use code AUDIO for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com and use code AUDIO.

3:58Luke Moore: G'day, Pop Pickers. Welcome to the Football Ramble Mailbag. Player power, home advantage, and Jack Grealish are the orders of the day. It's Thursday, 28th of August. I'm Marcus Speller. I'm Luke Moore. And I'm Padishina Hattaraja.

4:22Luke Moore: Hello, everybody. Good to have you with us. If you want to get involved with the mailbag, you can tweet us on x at Football Ramble, message us on Instagram and bluesky at Football Ramble, email us at footballramble.com, and of course, friends of the Ramble can get involved on the Discord. You can also leave a comment over on YouTube, and that's what all these people have done today. Not YouTube specifically, but all those avenues have been taken advantage, and we're going to start with an email from Dino. An email, Luke. It seems so passe, but it's still relevant. It still happens. you can't move for opportunities to contact us we're like a besmirched lover aren't we Sam just get in touch with me any way you want I'm always around I'll text back do you have to describe us as besmirched no Jim's the best at texting back I've found out of all the ramble people I speak to on WhatsApp Jim's very quick on the WhatsApp how dare you you're okay I'm very good you're good Vish is poor Pete is Pete you get it later in a non sequitur yeah Pete just sends me Instagram reels that he thinks I'll be interested in that I'm not yeah Jim doesn't have kids remember true so it's easier for him true yeah yeah yeah but you send Jim a WhatsApp guarantee oh yeah he's good at that delivered blue tick red replied it's like clockwork yeah fair enough yeah anyway so be like Jim is what I'm saying if you want to get in touch be like Jim or be like Dino if you want to send an email or Dino absolutely fine and Dino says this with Alexander Isak and Johan Wisser both downing tools and going on strike for their clubs as well as other recent examples of players forcing their way out despite having time left on their contract.

5:52Luke Moore: Has player power now gone too far in football? Vish, it's not the first time we've seen this. We've seen this before in the past. Is it just something that happens or is it going too far? I don't know. It's going too far. We probably know more about what's going on behind the scenes now because of the various different avenues of information and also just how player parties well rather players' representatives are able to brief in accordance to club briefings and stuff like that um it is quite interesting that in this particular example that there feels to be a domino effect of the people doing it for different reasons in an ideal world is that gets his move to liverpool which then opens up visa's move to newcastle yeah and it's funny that in that chain almost like if you think of it like a house sale and purchase yeah there are two people kicking off because the other is not being allowed to move essentially Whistler should be protesting on behalf of Izak do you think that's the next step I think that is the next step agents teaming up I don't think it's going too I don't think it's gone too far but it is all a nonsense I think also player power going too far is a conversational topic that older people have said about the generation below them footballers since the days of Jimmy Hill you might argue yeah he was getting players bigger way decades ago quite and then you have other things that come into play like the Bosman ruling and stuff like that which gave players a lot more power but the thing that leapt to my mind when I saw this question showing my age but also showing an indicative way of showing how long it's been going on for is I remember the saga of Roy Keane's Man United contract in what was it around the Christmas of 1999 where he has said if you don't satisfy my demands, I'm going to go to Serie A, right?

7:47And he had been linked to a couple of Serie A clubs. Back then, Serie A clubs could pay a lot of money. He had been offered a big amount of money at the time to go play there. And then United eventually kind of crumbled and offered him, I think, 50 ,000 a week, right? And it was 40 ,000 a week basic and then 10 ,000 a week bonuses.

8:06Luke Moore: It broke their wage structure. It did break their wage structure. And the football media world, which of course is very different than it is now, there wasn't so much kind of everyday people having their say, but the people who were in control of sports media then essentially collectively lost their minds about how a player could hold such a big club to ransom, how he's being paid so much money, an extortion amount of money. Can you believe how many nurses would be paid with this amount of money? There was also a factor in his deal that he would get a testimonial five years hence, which would have meant that he'd have earned a couple of million quid or something.

8:36People were just going crazy. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong. And Roy Keane was a fabulous player and the money kind of pals into insignificance now looking at today's fees. But it does show you at least that this is a conversation that's been happening for a very, very long time. And we have to be careful of, particularly people of our age, we're a bit older, you know, and the players are all younger than us now. We have to be careful of falling into that trap of saying, you know, back in the day, it would never happen. The club was, it's kind of always been going on in a different way.

9:09That Roy Keane, that's 20, almost 26 years ago. and I remember it vividly. So I don't think, given the question, I don't think the player power has quote-unquote gone too far. I just think that since things like the Bosman where they have a little bit more leeway, that kind of revolutionized player trading, didn't it? There's been more options for players and they know their worth. But I think people are just generally more aware these days. You know, if you're an Izak or a Visa to use the two players that Dino's named there, they know the career is going to be short. They know they're going to be remembered for what they win.

9:43And I think in this case at least, or these two cases at least, it is that players are moving because they think it gives them a better chance of actually winning things. They're not forcing their way out so they can go to Saudi or they can be proper, undiluted mercenaries. There are kind of football reasons why they're happening.

10:02Luke Moore: Yeah, playing the Champions League, whatever. Yeah, playing the Champions League. Is it ideal that they're not playing at the moment? I don't think it is. I think that's a bad look. I would not support that. I think you should still play. I don't think there's any reason why you can't play beyond the fact that you're worried that you're going to get injured, but then players kind of see that as part and parcel of the game now anyway. Because chiefly, it actually, it kind of impedes your new move because you're not going to be match fit. So you're actually doing yourself a disservice and your new club a disservice for not playing.

10:34Luke Moore: I agree with that. So that isn't ideal. but other than that I wouldn't take it personally but they're not leaving my club are they? Yeah I mean I feel that this is something that will always be the case as you say I don't think we'll get to a point where these kind of you know stories of players downing tools and what not will go away I think the thought of every player I'm just going to stick to my contract and if I want to move and you don't want to sell me fine I'll just run down my contract and so on and it's all uniformed and across the board it's a bit like saying we want consistency from defenders holding strikers in the box at penalties.

11:10Luke Moore: It's a case-by-case basis. Yes, there are certain parameters, and I think it's a great shame for the details that you've just given there, Luke, when a player says, I'm not going to play, and I don't think it serves anybody. But it's been happening a long time. And there are so many moving parts in this because, well, are the club, did the club make promises? Are the club mistreating the player? Yeah, we don't know. What do you then revert to? Do you then revert to the clubs having all the power? Well, there was a reason why players kind of revolted against that many decades ago and wanted more wages and wanted a bit more freedom.

11:44Luke Moore: There's a reason why the Bosman rule came in and was named after the player because it seemed quite unfair. And you accept that. So I think the idea when you think, well, you know, it's the fans are the ones, of course, who suffer for this because they don't see particular players, Newcastle fans, in this case with Isak, a player who's lit up that stadium so many times, scored the winning Gold Cup final and they love him. they're the ones who suffer but are the club treating the player well some people say we've treated him marvellously well and that may well be the case for some it's a boring answer but that may well be the case for that the player might be just kicking off there's so many ins and outs I just think it's such a shame though with Isak that him behaving like this completely ruins his reputation at Newcastle when he's done yeah it does it does but that's from a fan point of view that's from looking at it from a romantic sort of but we're talking about top level competitive sport right and it works the other way was Aaron Ramsdale thanked when they brought in David Rea six months later or whatever it was.

12:40Exactly. But what happened was the club got an opportunity to do what they thought improved upon what they've already got and Newcastle and Brentford would do exactly the same. If Jörn Visser was very happy at Brentford, wasn't hanging from a move, hadn't heard that someone else wanted him and Brentford had the opportunity before the end of the window to get a player that was better than him, they would do it. And that's how competitive sport works and the problem is that it's not a problem but one of the factors here is that of course you're right to mention briefly that the fans you know the fans like it or not start to take it personally because they think you know with Alex Izak what he's had to put up with for want of a better phrase is this lineage is this idea that Alan Shearer will come out and say it's a privilege to be number nine for Newcastle he'll then quote Jackie Milburn who says I put that shirt on for all the people down the mines every week who couldn't represent him because I did it for them and he should know that kind of thing.

13:37And you have to understand that, one, everyone's different and, two, the game, that's a way that the game has moved on.

13:43Luke Moore: But this is the tricky thing, Luke. This is why we're trying to jam this

13:51Luke Moore: almost unquantifiable, unscientific thing into a box and we're trying to say, right, this is what it is, this is what it looks like. You can't do it because... We don't need to do that, though. But I think that's what people want us to do. What do you mean, Vish? We don't need to try and essentially pour our nostalgia into a case and preserve it for generations. No, but indeed, and that's why when Shearer says what he may well have said and the chat of Jackie Milburn and so on, is that relevant? But however, it is relevant to some people, and some people go, well, we've sung your name and all this kind of stuff, which is why it's the emotive side of it that gets poured into what is ultimately a business.

14:31Luke Moore: And as you say, if Isak thinks I can go and play for that team over there who have just won the league, they're among the favourites potentially for the Champions League and all the rest of it, I want to further my career and earn a lot more money as well. That is the harsh reality. And I think as football fans, we just can't and maybe even shouldn't accept that because then a lot of the romance and a lot of the feeling is potentially taken out of the game. if you're a fan of a club like me in Fulham you have to accept it because you know you're not the top dog and you're never going to be the top dog and when a player goes do you know what I'm going to go to Saudi Arabia for a king's ransom because it's going to do whatever or I'm happily going to go to Liverpool or even Spurs or something you kind of go yeah that's annoying but it happens can I bring into the mix up perhaps a different perspective might be interesting to think about is the Eberici-Eze to Arsenal thing.

15:28Yeah, very different. Eberici-Eze has gone from a great club to a bigger club. He's done it the right way. He kept quiet. He didn't not play. And if you look at the post on Instagram that Eze did, I think a collaboration post with Crystal Palace, the outpouring on there was universally positive.

15:50Luke Moore: But very different because Palace were willing to sell. And the club knew that. All the fans knew that. they were in a position where selling was very important. I mean, Paris said that. But there is room for compromise in all of these deals. There's a room, if people are willing to compromise, and we have talked about this in a slightly different way recently on the show, the way to compromise, it may not be palatable for how Alexander Isak's feeling at the moment because he's headstrong or he's got his head turned and he's mentally somewhere else or whatever. But that's all because that's of what's happened.

16:19It's been done before where players can go and say, all right, I'll play for you for three months. But in January, I'm going. and that's the deal we do and you know what Newcastle might want him to stay to the summer and Alex under Isaac might want to go now so the compromise is you go in January and you give us three months of your best you get up to speed you score as many goals as you can and then January will let you go

16:36Luke Moore: but he would argue that these kind of well we don't but the problem there's no point saying that because you start getting into territory where you just don't know what's happening but the reason why I do say it is because the point I made you know a few moments ago is that every case is different so comparing Eze to Isaac is very different in that way which is why I've used one of Paulinho when Joel Paulinho was playing for Fulham he goes to Munich he's holding up the shirt and then comes back and says sorry we didn't find a replacement for you back into training pal and he does and he does it and he gets his move on loan at Spurs now but the question's about player power the players know the power they've got now and they're willing to use it in certain circumstances when it suits them and I understand why fans get upset about it but it's almost a bit like being annoyed that the tide comes in and goes out every day So to nail my colours to the mask, what I would say is that there are specific examples where I may not go for this, but generally speaking, I would say with Isak, I said it a few weeks ago, he has completely ostracised himself.

17:35Luke Moore: And I don't think that's very wise for anybody to do in such a way. I understand he's trying to force a move through. I think it's a great shame. But, you know, he signed a contract with Newcastle. Whatever chat they've had, you can chat away to anybody. You've signed a contract. The fans really want you there. you've got to go back to work you've got to go and play you might try a load of things to get a move at some point you go that hasn't worked okay fine tail between your legs back you go and then get down and get on with it because it does not serve you it doesn't serve anybody that you're not playing football and that's what I would say I think it's such a great shame when that sort of thing happens but that's my feeling though to kind of go back and forth on this and say well every individual so many moving parts as I say but with regard to players saying no I'm not training I'm not playing sod off CLA I ultimately would come down on the side of probably what is the club and the fans and say come on honour your contract and do that I understand you may want to move blah blah blah blah Yeah and I suppose this is the most in your face example of how disposable a legacy is to a player and how much more it means to us the fan than it does for them which we've always known but this is quite an overt example of that It's brutal It is But it is.

18:49Life.

18:50Luke Moore: Life, my friends. Life, my friends. Yeah. All right, coming up after this, more of your questions. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you're a regular listener of the Football Ramble, you'll have heard me talk about BetterHelp and how good it is many, many times. But you don't have to take my word for it, though. If you go to betterhelp.com forward slash reviews, you'll see hundreds of people talking about how much BetterHelp has helped them. Updated every day, they have an average live therapy session rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client session reviews. It's easy to get started.

19:21Luke Moore: Simply answer a few questions and you'll be matched with a therapist based on your needs. With 12 plus years of experience and an industry-leading match fulfillment rate, they typically get it right the first time, but you can always switch to a different therapist from their tailored recs. BetterHelp therapists have at least 3 years and 1 ,000 hours of hands-on experience and hold all required education, training and certifications across a range of mental health specialties. If you're considering therapy, the feedback from people who have actually used the service speaks for itself. See the reviews, see what stands out and see if BetterHelp is right for you.

19:52Luke Moore: Visit BetterHelp.com forward slash ramble. That's BetterHelp.com slash ramble.

19:59Hi, it's Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman. It's back to school time, which means many of us are going to be busier than ever. But from getting out the door in the morning to enjoying delicious meals together at the end of the day, Whole Foods Market can help with convenient options and delivery. Plus, because it's Whole Foods Market, you can feel good about the quality of the ingredients. Shop back-to-school must-haves at Whole Foods Market in-store or online. You're a pro at running your life, at committing to your workout, at showing up every day. At Bombas, we're pros too.

20:35Pros at making socks. Our Sport Astortman has specialized socks for whatever sport you're committed to. Running, hiking, golf, Pilates, and so much more. Made with sweat-wicking yarns, blister-fighting details, and targeted arch support. Bombas Sport is pro-level socks from the pros of socks. For another pro, you. Go to bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's bombas.com and use code audio. Where's your playlist taking you? Down the highway? To the mountains? Or just into daydream mode while you're stuck in traffic? with over 4 000 hotels worldwide best western is there to help you make the most of your getaway wherever that is because the only thing better than a great playlist is a great trip life's the trip make the most of it at best western book direct and save at bestwestern.com

21:35Okay, we've got another question here from our friend Krish who's got in touch with us via Instagram. One of the many options. Marcus listed. One of my favourite options. At the top of the show. My top five favourite options. There you go. He says, after Max Downman and Rio Ungamoa got all the headlines this week, why do you think players are bursting onto the scene so young nowadays? When I started watching football 30 years ago, it seemed inconceivable that a 15-year-old will be playing for one of the best clubs in the league. So my question is, is football getting younger? Now, before I throw it up to you guys, a bit of context, Premier League clubs are now signing more young players than ever.

22:09The average age of signings dipped below 23 for the first time in Premier League history last season. The three youngest players in Premier League history have made their debuts this year. But of the 10 youngest Premier League starting 11s, there's actually only two in recent years, Man United in this year and Chelsea in 2023. so a little bit of data there to give you a bit of context Vish, is football getting younger? Or are we just getting older? No, I think it is getting younger I think the way kids are coached in particular has changed I think the way kids are profiled has changed as well there's a lot more research has been done on, for example people being selected because of where they were born in a school year and broadening the, for example, say the school year right now to include those at the back end of the previous school year so you end up so it basically used to be the case that coming through at a young age the more talented athletes in a school year would often be autumn born kids because of our school year works over here in the UK with the August to June, July term time

23:19Luke Moore: or England there you go and also I think the game has changed tactically it's less of a contact sport and if you think of the main I suppose the main edge to development when it comes to professional sports is physicality probably have a bit less of that in football again I'm just kind of positing that particular thing in terms of physicality but I do feel like tactically players are not as it's not as jostly as it once was I suppose football full stop do you think the physical side of the game in terms of the rough and tumble that's what I mean the shoulder to shoulder stuff the actual strength on strength stuff isn't as much there I think if you look at Max Dalman for example I know it was a brief cameo he dived you sure no no but there was how many that's not happening in the 1990s is it yeah but what contact he's gaining is from like quick shifts when he's close to a player he's not necessarily in the centre midfield jostling with someone and I suppose that's where you see the difference actually because if you look at the list of players those players that have come through are primarily wide players with the exception of harvey elliot who when he came on was actually primarily playing on the right yeah in terms of like a out and out winger sort of thing i think yeah that's that's certainly how i feel um it's going but it definitely is getting younger because i think the sport is played a bit differently yeah i think you're right to say that um i think there's there's other reasons as well i think that um and i'm gonna hurry up because i want to do e triple p well that's what i was going to mention all right The EPPP is a huge reason.

24:49Luke Moore: Which is related. I think the signings, sorry, very quickly, I think the signings part of this question is irrelevant to the actual it getting younger. Teams signing younger players, they're not signing them because they're necessarily going to play them. Yeah, they're hoarding young players. That's where EPPP comes in. Clubs are hoarding young players and it is almost like being an irresponsible fisherman. You know what I mean? You just hoard and get the nets in and we'll get them all in and then if they're not suitable, we'll chuck them away or cinnamon. Chuck them back when they're rotten. Yeah, do you know what I mean?

25:20No one can eat them.

25:22Luke Moore: You've gone too far with that analogy, I feel. But I think that that's a huge reason as well. And that's why we're mentioning Premier League clubs because they're pinching a lot of youngsters from all over the place. Their catchment area is now country worldwide or whatever. And the simple maths are that only 20 of the professional clubs in England are Premier League clubs. and it's absolutely viable and feasible that before EPPP just on the law of averages 72 clubs is much more likely to have a younger player than a Premier League and the final yeah and the financial disparities are more stark than ever with the Premier League so you can you know offer youngsters or clubs if they have I mean again it's happened to Fulham you mentioned Harvey earlier there come along go yeah fine he's a few million sod off you know we'll have him whatever you see that you see that the big clubs just get bigger and better I mean how many sides can win the Champions League realistically before the ball is kicked in that tournament people would probably have four teams at most as favourites years ago you might have seven or eight something like that so those are reasons as well there's also a tactical reason why people are signing younger players and much has been made of this in the last few years and the the pep school of thought even the Jurgen Klopp school whatever, pressing is such an important thing in football.

26:46Luke Moore: And if you're going to press, you want to do it as long as possible in a game of football. How are you going to do that? You need as much energy as possible. You're not going to get that with 33, 34-year-olds in your team. But I don't think a 15-year-old's energy is going to be as good as an 18, 19-year-old, though. No, they're not. But younger doesn't necessarily mean teenagers per se. You see the likes of Real Madrid and so on signing players for huge amounts of money when they're in their early 20s. We used to think a footballer would be at his peak in his late 20s. I don't think you think that anymore.

27:15I think it's probably mid-20s now.

27:17Luke Moore: You could say mid-20s. So therefore, what do you want to do? You don't want to wait till that perceived peak when they're in the mid-20s. You're signing potential way more now than ever before. And because, again, a handful of clubs, PSG, Real Madrid, because Real Madrid doesn't matter what they do with their finances, they manage to find money from somewhere, and your big Premier League clubs, you've got the cash because they're the ones that compete in the latter stages of the Champions League. The Premier League is a wealthy beast. Real Madrid have cut their deal in La Liga. who is going to challenge PSG in France, etc, etc.

27:46Luke Moore: You see that hoarding for all different reasons, but you see that again from a tactical point of view. Get that potential in. You know, you school them and you teach them. And as Vish is right, the game is played differently. Coaching comes into it as well, particularly in this country. We've seen a lot of change in the last 20 years. I think these are reasons why, because you want guys in their early mid-20s pressing for most of the game. They're going to be playing, you know, 50 plus games a season, and you need a big squad. It's increasing substitutions and all that kind of stuff. There's also no restrictions on the younger players under a certain age as well.

28:21There you go, yeah. I just want to deviate slightly from this talking point and just go back to Daumann and Ngamoua. Yeah. Particularly because, particularly with Daumann, when I watched him, I've watched him a few times through highlight clips and through the fact that loads of Arsenal fans have been really excited about him and his name has been out there for ages as being, essentially the new Saka or the new Wilshire or whatever. I know they're different players but you know that kind of profile. And the one thing I was really stunned by is actually how technically good he is for the age he is because I think sometimes when you watch football the age is just a number and we have a vague understanding that when a player gets to 35 or whatever you start to think that means a certain thing.

29:03We know footballers themselves can be very self-conscious about turning 30 and what that represents but it is worth remembering that you know a 15 year old being that good technically and having that presence of mind to be able to do this same with ungamora as well the way he scores and the winner against newcastle and stuff they are outliers right they are outliers you know we're having this conversation here about football getting younger and maybe it is you know we i listed a couple of stats at the top of this discussion that that may or may not be indicative but it is worth remembering that But for every downwind and Nungamua, there's been a Rooney, there's been an Owen, there's been a Milner, there's been a James Vaughan.

29:42There's always been players that peak very, very young and come onto the scene very, very early. And you go back even further than that, you know, Daddy Kadamateri, we talked about his son yesterday on the show. You know, he was the same for Everton as a striker. Came in very young and scored a couple of notable goals. This stuff does happen. It doesn't necessarily mean anything more broad than that. It just means that sometimes you get outliers in a bank of data. If you look at that, Sky Sports did a graphic off the back of the weekend's football on Monday on Sky Sports News of a big infographic of the average age of the players.

30:19And each player in the Premier League this season so far represented a dot and it plotted out a graph. On that graph, you could see how much of an outlier they are. I mean, the vast majority of players operating in the Premier League at the moment look to me from that graphic. and I can't find it annoyingly, but it was about 25, 26, which basically lends itself to what you were saying about the average age. Yes, it's come down a bit.

30:41Luke Moore: So therefore it is getting younger, but maybe not to the extreme. But there's absolutely, I mean, let's get it in perspective. There's absolutely zero chance whatsoever that any Premier League team in an important game or any Premier League game are going to be fielding eight or nine fucking 17 years. It's not going to happen. There's loads of obvious reasons for that. So the final thing I'll say just very quickly in case it's helpful is I was reading about this coincidentally a couple of years ago a really interesting data-led deep dive piece, long read, about American Olympic sprinters. And what they found was that the point of the article was it's very difficult to know why this is happening.

31:19They suspect it might be happening because of unseen, unknown effects, long-term effects of performance-enhancing drug substance use, right? Because Justin Gatlin was breaking all these records, you know, running the fastest ever, running the age of 34, whatever. But broadly speaking, what they found, which I found really interesting, and it may not lend itself to football, but I think it's just an interesting kind of talking point, is that in the early 80s, successful American sprinters were very, very young. They were like early 20s, right? Then through the mid-90s, the average age of them got up to be about 29 years old.

31:53Then it came way down again in the 2000s, and now it's going up again. So it may well be that it's more of a cyclical thing because we start to favour fast, energetic, young legs. But then there's a reaction against that and we start to play a more cerebral style and we favour experience. I think you're right. Again, it might just be a bit more simple. But I think that's a fair point.

32:13Luke Moore: I think, yeah, you're right. Do you trust youngsters? Do you trust the 16 or 17-year-old? And then you've got some very notable examples of what everyone else is doing. And you think, well, the attitudes change. I just think, as I said at the top of this, the 10 youngest Premier League starting 11s, there's only two, 20 % that are in the last couple of years. And that says to me, you get one or two players dropped in there who are outliers. The overall trend is you need a balance, you need a mix. But to answer the question, I think we're all thinking that football is generally getting a little bit younger, but not to maybe the extremes of, as you say, you've got three 15-year-olds and you start at 11 or anything like that.

32:48Yeah, I don't think we'll ever get to that stage. I think, yeah, Luke's right to point them out as outliers because ultimately it's never going to happen. You're never going to get fucking Bugsy Malone out there in the Premier League game. That would be good though. I'd be up for that for an end of season special.

33:03Luke Moore: I'd say so. A little question here from James on email. If Jack Grealish can repeat the sort of form we saw against Brighton, would you take him to the World Cup at the end of the season? James on email. Marcus on email. Or is his time in an England shirt over? Go on Vish. I don't think it's ever over. I think... It is sometime. I was going to say yeah yeah but especially for his position out wide on the left but at the same time if you think of what's probably skewered him is the use of Ebreche Eze for England out there and then also the emergence of Anthony Gordon barring say like Marcus Rashford really knocking him down by having a great season in Barcelona I can't you know he might be an alternate but I don't see why you'd bring him along as a squad player because he's certainly not a starter Can I make a prediction?

33:55Please. I think that, I mean, Jack Grish is 30 this season. I think he's 30 next month, September, which is no age really, despite the conversation we've just had. So I don't think that's a problem. My prediction is he is going to have a massive season at Everton. I think so. I think it's set up for him there. I think that we'll see a big clamour for him to be included. A certain amount of these predictions are governed by things like injury and luck and all the rest of it. But if it goes as it could go, as he'll hope and it'll go, I think he'll be front of mind in a big way just because of the type of character he is, the reputation he's got, the things he's achieved before.

34:37And I think he's going to give Thomas Tuchel a really big decision to make in a weird way, the same way that South got to make a decision on him for the last tournament. And obviously it went a certain way.

34:48Luke Moore: Well, he played his way out of the short squad, you might say. But I think... Or injured his way out of it. I think it also depends on the manager. We're talking about England specifically here. Southgate, the thing is, I think Southgate potentially wanted a reason to not pick him. And he got more than one reason not to pick him. He didn't pick him. I think if Tuchel likes him, I think he's going to have to make a big decision because I think there'll be a big media clamour for him to be included if it goes the way I think it will go for Everton. I think you're right. I think Tuchel is a massive fan of his, we should say.

35:17Luke Moore: Well, I think he offers England something a bit different from Eze, who, let's be honest, I mean, if Eze hits the ground running at Arsenal, that's a great season. You might think he's a starter for England. I don't think Anthony Gordon's quite done it, really, in an England shirt. But talking as a starter, you're talking about a squad. Yeah, yeah. You need someone to rearrange Virgil van Dijk's calf muscle. I mean, he's the best man for it. That is true. Eze can do what Grealish can do. Yeah, but true. But, you know, you don't need to worry about Van Dijk's calves if Grealish is there. Bring her own calves.

35:49Luke Moore: so I think there's definitely a chance that he could go to the World Cup having a good season so yeah I mean Vichy's right to say I mean Eze you look at Eze the thing about Eze is that he's not been the victim of being having to almost at least go halfway and meet the manager and being a system player right the thing about Grealish is in some ways he's like his own worst enemy we don't know how much of this is because Guardiola is making him do certain things recycling possession stuff like that But Grealish at his worst looks like a player who wants to completely absolve himself of responsibility to make things happen.

36:24He can't go into Everton doing that. He won't do that this season. And the early signs are he's not done that yet. He's actually made a big difference.

36:29Luke Moore: Also, again, I go back to the summer in 2024 when a lot of the players were saying to Southgate, well, why have you dropped him? You know, we like having him around and we like having him on the pitch. So, Tuchel will talk to the likes of Harry Kane. He will talk to some of his more senior players and he'll get a very good write-up. but time will tell everybody the great thing is just before you cut to break the great thing is there's a great competition to places right the thing is we're not relying on them the conversation before this years ago would be put your sneaker ears to find some more form because we've got no one else and we'd be desperate for them to get into form not are we going to take them or not because of all the other options we've got so it's a nice problem to have actually that left side in that attack for England is ultimately up for grabs do you know who by all accounts who was who has been impressing Thomas Tuchel despite the results of his club Jarrod Bowen Mason Mount Mason Mount man just love him man just love him do you know what that's a chat for another day do you know what he's from my hometown and has to press me it was on my radar as of course it would be alright back in a sec

37:39hi I'm Jack Ravici Kramer host of The Best One Yet at T-Boy we're always talking about small decisions that can have an outsized impact. One of the simplest is staying hydrated. Whether I'm traveling, getting a workout in, or heading into a busy day, I keep Liquid IV on hand. It's clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone and contains three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, plus eight vitamins and nutrients. It's an easy addition to your daily routine and helps support hydration when you need it most. Shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV hydration that goes wherever life takes you.

38:11Thank you for calling the Bombas Comfort Line. Bombas make socks, slippers, tees, and underwear made with the highest quality materials. Press 1 for comfort, 2 for style, 3 for donation. You chose style. Bombas is styles for whatever you enjoy. You can run in Bombas, lounge in Bombas, dress them up, dress them down, but always give back in Bombas. Because with every item purchased, another is donated. Bombas, comfort worth calling for. Go to bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com and use code audio. Where's your playlist? taking you down the highway to the mountains or just into daydream mode while you're stuck in traffic.

38:50With over 4 ,000 hotels worldwide, Best Western is there to help you make the most of your getaway, wherever that is. Because the only thing better than a great playlist is a great trip. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Book direct and save at bestwestern.com.

39:17We've got an email from Dom. Which Premier League stadium gives their team the biggest home advantage? Craven Cottage. Next question from Neil. The new Big Dick stadium for the Toffees. We've got to stick with that. We have to stick with that. The new Big Dick stadium for the Toffees seems loud and intimidating on first impression, but which grounds are the most and least intimidating?

39:42Luke Moore: Yeah. I'm pleased Pete's not on the show today because a lot of people have been pissed off with him bigging up the Mackhams. I saw something called, someone shared something with me yesterday online because I think some of them just played, some of them just lost in the League Cup, right? Yes, yeah. And there are people online still taking issue with what Pete said two weeks ago, pointing out the empty seats in the League Cup game at Sondon. Oh, where's your great fans now? So I'm pleased Pete's not on the show today for this. But it's a good question. Well, I think when St. James' Park wants to be, that's a very intimidating place Mark Gay mentioned that before and you saw that against Liverpool how everyone was fully up for that duty bound to mention Anfield I think Leeds are going to really need Ellen Road you know as Gary Neville was caught on a hot mic saying there that the one group of supporters wouldn't want to go near so we know that can be but I think he's got his own reasons for that hasn't he?

40:32Luke Moore: yeah I'm sure but they're a raucous bunch is what I would say Ellen Road's a good shout because you speak to any Leeds fan and they will tell you that it is the most intimidating ground at its best and also at its worst. Yeah, so this is absolutely right. Yeah. I find it's not going to win me any friends, but I find the Anfield thing a bit overrated. Well, I think that's probably because it saves itself for big European nights or big games, which is why I said it in St. James' Park, you know, when it wants to be. Because there's a certain, maybe not so much St. James' Park, I think with Anfield it's, like if Anfield are hosting, you know Burnley it's not going to be that raucous is it because they fully expect to win and they most likely will win there's a bit of chicken and egg here isn't it because I think people go to Anfield wanting to be a part of that atmosphere and at times you're almost seeing from a hymn sheet but then doing so you get moments like the Bournemouth game at the end where people are thrilled to be part of an exciting Anfield night and that adds to it without necessarily being as authentic as it used to be but then who are we to judge that authenticity?

41:44People get gatekeeper about that kind of stuff. Yeah,

41:47Luke Moore: but I mean it's why, you know, in that. But also it's a big thing because atmosphere was amazing at the end of that ball. It was. And it's, you know, there's a reason why Mikel Arteta, you know, did that thing where he tried to pump the atmosphere into the training ground when Arsenal played. He talked about it being an intimidating place. So it can be. So I think, yeah. The ironic answer here, by the way, and the true answer. St. Mary's? yeah no it was it was Goodison Park I mean that's the that's the key part of the question for both home and away teams but it's but it's really fine but you you in I've I can't I can't remember how many times I have I've interviewed a player or seen a player interviewed I even interviewed Howard Webb once right remember and he used to fucking drag kind of Goodison Park it's a fucking bear pit if we're talking about previous stadiums and I'm so sorry because why it was so important Everton did what they did in the first game against Brighton they made a real effort to do something that maybe West Ham perhaps didn't do well you were about to say Upton Park I was Upton Park I only went there once maybe twice bloody hell fire like it was proper it's such a shame which links us neatly to the worst atmosphere but I do think that you've got Ellen Road's good I've been there it was pretty full on Crystal Palace are really good for the relative size would you say yeah I mean, I don't know if you...

43:09Luke Moore: You didn't necessarily have to use the word intimidating, but who's going to encourage the team more and, you know, suck the ball into the goal, that kind of 12-man business? So I've actually... The question's about giving their team the biggest home in advance. Yeah, so I've gone to Palace away quite a few times before they came into the Premier League, and I found their atmosphere and experience without necessarily being intimidating. And it might have been down to the fact that I wasn't necessarily supporting the team that I was there watching in the away end. but it was it's really impressive and it's very much focused on their own team rather than cultivating an atmosphere of a way players would or a way teams would dread yeah I think I mean he asked about least intimidating I think people probably have Craven Cottage up there because most of the noise you say that but like the end of that Manchester United game last weekend yeah I mean when there's when there's a whip of we're on top here yes it sounds like any other ground I know the thing says, look at them with their fucking Victoria sponge.

44:10I really like Victoria sponge. I was going to say. Yeah, so do I. It's good cake. If I may be diplomatic, I would say we've had a really good start to the Premier League season this season in terms of atmosphere, which of course has been informed by the televised games we've been able to watch because you're right about the Bournemouth game at Anfield. That was much closer than people thought it would be. Liverpool players needed the fans on that occasion, like you say particularly towards the end I think Leeds with the element of stuff like Sunderland and Leeds both winning on their opening day there's an element there where both those clubs have a really good support anyway and they're so pleased to be back in the Premier League I know the Sunderland game wasn't televised but you could see it and that played into it and then last weekend we had incredible scenes at West Ham perhaps for the wrong reasons but the atmosphere was full on for very very different reasons until everyone left but that's fans that's fans having an effect I mean it's and then the Newcastle Liverpool game is extraordinary that is an amazing atmosphere there whenever I've been to St.

45:13James Park for a European night Marcus you were with me that was that was an amazing amazing atmosphere yeah but I know that's an outlier again because it's their first game home game back in Europe for a long old time but even so I mean I think we're actually quite blessed in the Premier League despite all its attempts to self sanitize and to and to make itself overtly commercial

45:35Luke Moore: and to export it and to fuck people over. Despite all that, we still are quite well treated with great atmospheres at great stadiums. And I think, you know, they've fallen on tough times at the moment. Credit to the fans for that. But Old Trafford on its day is amazing as well. It is. I mean, it's not been recent, but it is on its day. And Man United fans are one of maybe only two or three sets of supporters that visit Craven College and don't have a go at the home fans. and I thank them for that yeah we could do another whole other conversation about travelling fans because May United fans travel amazingly well they do they're very raucous I have to say too raucous one might say alright so we finish with this one then from Neil on Blue Sky people still using Blue Sky amazing love that with Premier League managers rekindling their love get back new ex with Premier League managers rekindling their love for a long throw I love a long throw oh we do what's the next thing you'd like to see make a comeback in football now before we move on for that there we go back to old Grimsby John that his name was Dr.

46:34John disrespectful to him in 96 happy birthday by the way 99 now he's been wished happy birthday so many times the thing I love about a long throw is the thing I always come back to you which is the fact that there's so much about football that you still can't control and a long throw done correctly Liv Remento does a good one by the way strikes fear in the heart of specifically out here by India but a lot of players because it's hard to defend against.

47:02Luke Moore: What do you want to bring back, Vish? Or would you like to make a comeback? The back pass rule. Get rid of that. Get people knocking it about and giving it back to the keeper. There we are. Liverpool have won the league again. Oh, hey, there's an old reference. That's a sick burn. What do I want being brought back? Or you'd like to make a comeback, you know. Yeah, so like a shift. Two up front. I was going to say that. But teams do do that now. No, no, no, no. Not the same. No, not the same. too up front yeah do not leave the width of the penalty area yeah I like that I like that yeah simple as that yeah that's it well I mean there's something to be said though if you could do that I mean the reason why 4-3-3 kind of came in was because it was seen as a superior formation in that if you match players up and blah blah blah there's I don't want to get too beardy about it it's a bit continental though and therefore untrustworthy but do you remember how that started?

48:00because it was two up front and two players you would describe as centre forwards. Yes. And then second striker, sorry, support striker came into the lexicon as the second striker. Yes, playing between the lines. You blame Intelli-Sheringham for that, are you? Well, no, it wouldn't necessarily be a number 10 or a drop-off striker. It would just be a support striker. And the bridge between that and the attacking midfielder was basically what Lampard did. So Mourinho... Did both of them, you mean? Yeah. So Mourinho talked about like one of the best things he did was with his defensive midfielder, whether that was Makalele or Essien eventually, was that Thiago role.

48:38Because it was like, found someone to do both jobs there.

48:40Luke Moore: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a really good point. I never considered that. It is. I mean, also as well, when Barcelona became like the centre of football under Pep, it was the 4-3-3. And I think a lot of people kind of copied that. Although it was, again, I'm talking about in this country. I think people talk about it, you know, more balanced across the field and all that kind of stuff. But then, as we know, tactics are, you know, they go in and out of fashion. I'm not saying the 2-3-5 is going to make a return, although, I mean, we have seen Pep do something similar. And I know, again, that nowadays the idea of you start with a formation, you play the whole game with that formation, and you end with that formation, that's kind of old-fashioned thinking as well.

49:15Luke Moore: But what I would say with the two up front, and I know Simeone's done a little bit, Atletico and so on, defenders are drilled now. When they grow up, there's two centre-halves, really. I know back three is there but two centre-ars you're really looking after one bloke and you may be helping your full-back out well it's trying to have a man up there one-on-one do you know what I mean there are things I think it's exactly that I think a lot of the they're not used to it people wouldn't be used to that and this is not some cheat code I'm just saying that again in certain in-game tactics you see a little bit of that but a proper I think strike partnership is what we're after Vish I was speaking to a mate of mine he plays semi-professional football and he's a defensive midfielder and he said one of the things that annoys him most is when he gets a call from his centre-back to ask to help out and he's like, there's two of you there.

50:00Yeah. And one of you's not doing anything. What do you mean? You're three against one. He's like, do some work. I'm doing some work over here. Everything's linked to everything else though because the reason that centre-backs have to do more in a different way is because full-backs are so much more attacking now. So full-back is a completely different role. It's funny you said two up front because my answer to the question when I was thinking about it would have been related to it which is that I feel like we're missing out a lot on the fact that we don't really have any flying hit the byline wingers anymore like something was lost when wide when wingers became wide forwards and they started to take an interest in being in the middle of the pitch and trying to score rather than whipping balls in over and over again unless you obviously David Moyes for May United that very specific game that time which was funny

50:47Luke Moore: I was going to say I mean Fulham loved to cross the ball under Silva I'm not talking about that though I'm not talking about not crossing the ball I'm talking about players who specifically role was to beat their full back but the reason why do you know there's one there's one player who's been doing it in the league consistently for basically as long as he's been in the league and because of that he's in a weird space where I don't think certain other teams trust him to sign that's Dwight McNeil right Dwight McNeil constantly plays on the left as a left footer and his job is to basically beat the full back or cross just in front of the full back well you saw it at Fulham Man United on the weekend you had Ryan Sessegnon up against Ahmad Diallo and so they are going to provide that, I mean I was thinking about this the other day about the inverted wingers and so on you wouldn't even bother calling them inverted wingers anymore, that's a very old fashioned kind of language now but the reason why is, look at Jared Bowen when he whips the balls in for Wolves against, sorry West Ham against Wolves and Packeter gets on the end of it and you see Salah doing this just because you're, as I say, what we used to call inverted wingers I think you understand the point I'm saying there you can still you can still put crosses in you can pop them in right in the danger area so you're not losing the crossing you can cut in and shoot it just gives more of an option but that's not what I'm saying I get all that but you can still hit the byline so look at Grealish look at that first goal for Everton in the big dick stadium you know goes down the byline and whips it in and it's glorious stuff and that's what you need to train wingers on essentially use your other foot because you also then got the option to cut inside I mean when when Blackburn won the league under Kenny Dalgleish you had Ripley and Wilcox in a four across the pitch and whipping the balls into Sutton and Shearer my goodness you know glory days that's the other thing it's lower percentage now because why you only have one striker exactly yeah indeed but what I was going to make is that Dalgleish said I think teams are figuring us out was that well because you hit the byline then cross it and they head it in we're going to have to mix it up a bit and he said to Ripley well when you get the ball don't always hit the byline maybe cut inside and apparently Ripley he went, well then what do I do?

52:56John Terry's really, I know we've got to wrap up, but just very briefly, John Terry's actually very interesting on this. John Terry talks about the differences between when he was captain in that Mourinho side 20 years ago and what it's like now. And he said, the playing out from the back stuff is, and this is not like a kind of weird Brexit point about how everyone wants to play these days, because obviously John Terry's played with all these different players and under all these different managers. The point he was just making was that people missed the point, or what I got from it was, people missed the point about playing out from the back and not playing out from the back.

53:25What you're not understanding now is that John Terry says that when I watch a team now, I'm seeing players who aren't quite as trusted to make their own decisions as they were 20 years ago. Because when we played out from the back, we always wanted to split and I liked the ball at my feet and I wanted to do that.

53:40Luke Moore: He was an underrated two-footed player, Jerry. Yeah, but he said, sometimes there'd be three forwards waiting to press us. And if they did that, we would flip it. We would get Peter Cech to put it up to Didier Drogba's chest and then we'd beat that press and then we'd mix it up. The point isn't that you play out from the back or you don't. The point is that you make the decision you need to make based on the circumstance you find yourself in and then you revert to what your tactics are. And I don't think there's as much of that goes on these days. And that informs a lot of this discussion. I think every team ultimately needs a Didier Drogba chest.

54:10Oh yeah.

54:11Luke Moore: What a chest it is. Oh my goodness. Thanks for listening to the Football Ramble Mailbag part of the ACAST Creator Network. Vish and I are back tomorrow alongside Jim for the preview show. Please do send us your responses, opinions and questions for next week's Mailbag and subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your pods. See you tomorrow.

54:35The Football Ramble is a Stack Production and part of the Acast Creator Network.

54:47Where's your playlist? taking you down the highway to the mountains or just into daydream mode while you're stuck in traffic with over 4 000 hotels worldwide best western is there to help you make the most of your getaway wherever that is because the only thing better than a great playlist is a great trip life's the trip make the most of it at best western book direct and save at bestwestern.com. Hi, I'm Jack Ravici, Kramer, host of The Best One Yet. At T-Boy, we're always talking about small decisions that can have an outsized impact. One of the simplest is staying hydrated. Whether I'm traveling, getting a workout in, or heading into a busy day, I keep Liquid IV on hand.

55:30It's clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone and contains three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, plus eight vitamins and nutrients. It's an easy addition to your daily routine and help support hydration when you need it most. Shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV hydration that goes wherever life takes you. Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. You know when you finally get started on a project around the house and then five minutes in you realize you're missing one thing? Somehow it's always that one thing that sends you back to the store. That's why I love this from Lowe's.

56:02If you're a My Lowe's Rewards or My Lowe's Pro Rewards member, you get free same-day delivery. Honestly, Lowe's will make the run for you, making it that much easier to get what you need. Just place your order and Lowe's handles the rest. It seriously makes life so much easier, especially when you've already got a million things going on. Members get more at Lowe's. $25 minimum and loyalty membership required. Order eligible items by 2 p.m. Subject to weight and size restrictions and availability. Terms at lowes.com slash shipping terms. There are moments that reveal who we are and who We're meant to become for those born to lead such moments call for a vehicle of equal distinction Dynamic by design Uncompromising in execution the Range Rover Sport was engineered for those rare individuals who demand the world and possess the conviction to claim it When your time to lead arrives you need a vehicle that rises to meet it the Range Rover Sport Exclusive offers available now explore further at Range Rover.com