Mailbag: Has this Premier League season become a farce?

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3:21why always them everyone welcome to the football ramble mailbag it's thursday the first of october can you believe it i'm luke moore i'm jim campbell and i'm the yes indeed hello everyone welcome to the football ramble mailbag. Marcus has wrapped his hand in on it, so I'm hosting, but very happy to be here. You can message us on X, formerly known as Twitter, some good stuff on X. Blue Sky, which is still going. Still going, Blue Sky. Instagram, at Football Ramble, of course, with all those platforms. Comment on YouTube or email us, show at footballramble.com. And of course, friends of the Ramble get priority, patreon.com forward slash Football Ramble, or sign up on YouTube.

4:14How are you guys doing? Well? Yeah. Yeah. Doing okay? Mm-hmm. Ready to get stuck into, let's be honest, some Man City themed questions. There's basically nothing else in society at the moment, is there? No, exactly. Yeah. And we were always talking about them before anyway. They were always getting into conversations and now we can dedicate time to them exclusively. It's crossed over into the mainstream to such an extent where it would no longer just be a question at the end of Question Time on a Thursday night on the BBC. It would be like a throwaway one where someone goes, well, of course, I support Peterborough United, so what would I know?

4:46To a main question. It'd be a main question on question time now, wouldn't it? So that's why we're leading this show with it. This is from Michael on Patreon. Hello to you, Michael. He says, are you concerned about how the guilty verdict against Manchester City could affect the Premier League this season? They're currently top of the Premier League with five wins from five, but realistically it could be another 12 weeks before we know for sure what their sanctions could be. Could actually go way beyond that as well, I think, based on what I've read. And even then, they'll have to complete the season despite the fact that relegation could be guaranteed.

5:16Does this whole thing risk undermining the Premier League? I think for this particular season, absolutely it does because obviously there is a potential scenario where they win the league in terms of the points gained from winning games but are docked so many points that they are relegated or whatever. And that's the nightmare scenario, isn't it? Because that's another asterisk, essentially. You just hand it straight to whoever comes second, right? Well, I mean, whoever, if City get a big points deduction, they technically won't win the league, will they? But what I'm arguing is that if they've started really well, let's say that they hypothetically win enough games that they would be the champions without a points deduction, but they have the points deduction and that confirms their relegation.

6:01Makes the whole thing farcical, right? It makes the whole thing a massive waste of time. Absolutely. So that is potentially a massive, massive problem. I think though the situation is unprecedented isn't it so whatever happens is going to be a weird outcome we have to sort of prepare ourselves for this season probably being a bit odd because there's just no real sort of perfect solution to this what about if they if they kick them up the league and just give everyone in the league the three points they would have got from the fixtures against them so you have to sit it out for the rest of the year and and yeah obviously Manchester you have to refund season ticket holders and stuff like that and then they go like that Because to me, it feels like, like you said there, Jim, it's not even just what you've talked about there, it's the idea that eventually we are going to become aware that something like this is probably going to happen, yet we're all expected, as football fans, as a football community almost, to go through what is essentially a fast arrangement.

7:00It's not even real. Nothing's real. I suppose the argument against that for now would be that you've got to go through the process, right? Yeah. Yeah, which was going to be my argument because I feel like it was always going to be awkward when the verdict came out. There's going to be no situation where it wouldn't have affected the season before it or the season that is approaching. Like, you know, people were quibbling, not quibbling, but people were saying this is not ideal timing for the Premier League to have it, this ruling so early in the season or the fact that it's in a season full stop.

7:33But, I mean, it's taken so many years that it didn't matter, really. It was always going to have to come out. And the Cautiopoly example is an interesting one because of how they attributed the league wins, for example. Inter got one. One was basically left on the rack. And ultimately, they did that for administrative purposes in terms of working out who the actual, say, Champions League teams would be. and that division of money from league positions and stuff like that. That was what they gave it to Inter that season, right? Yeah, but there was two. Yes, the first season it just became non-assigned.

8:10Yes. And the second one they gave it to Inter, right? But that, sorry, just before you move on from that, the big difference, it's a different case, but just because people are making this comparison, the big difference for me between that and this is that the Calciopoli scandal for Juventus from a sporting point of view, because of course there was a criminal thing as well, but from the sporting point of view that was all sorted out in one summer. Yeah. And part of that is because they didn't have the kind of lawyers that City have. Yeah. And also it was a shorter period, right? Which therefore is going to sort of speed that process up, so to speak.

8:39I think there is a situation on the table as well. We keep hearing that they could be expelled from the league. So if that's happened this summer, presumably the games they've played, all those results would be voided, right? Because you're going to have, it's going to affect the goal difference of the team who's played an extra game against them. So that's an opportunity for the Premier League to take a leaf out of the Bundesliga's book. Obviously, because they have 18 teams, don't they? And they could kick Spurs out as well and just keep it that way. Poor Spurs. The situation, though, as we discussed, I think, earlier this week, is as far as we know, the EFL have said they will fall into line behind the Premier League.

9:18If the Premier League won't expel them from the league, the EFL won't accept them. I that might have changed though because there is a bit more back and forth between the Premier League and the EFL particularly when you look at the Leicester City situation I think they worked together on that to a point because obviously so much of it was beholden whether Leicester City would stay in the Premier League so there was a lot of essentially they are different companies aren't they but there was a lot of cooperation with that I imagine they'd be quite cooperative with this producer Tom, clapping enthusiast, made a really good point in the office actually about the fact that it might be within the EFL's interest actually to be willing to house Manchester City even in League Two because they're about to renegotiate their own broadcast deal.

10:07And the interest, or the level of interest will be such that they can wear it. And also if you put them right at the bottom of the professional football league, then you're going to get a situation where actually it's cleaner for everyone involved barring one potential team who might have been promoted up into the professional league which will then sort itself out in the following season anyway. Fine. What's interesting as well is that people are quite cynical about the idea this is just going to go on forever. But I think it can't go to Cass this. And Cass do have occasionally had hearings really quickly anyway.

10:41They are able to do things quickly if they need to I believe. Anyway it can't go to Cass. So people who are kind of being super cynical about oh this could rumble on for a number of years. I do think there will come a point where there is no more Appellate options for City. There will at some point. And that will become really interesting because then, and we kind of touched on this a bit yesterday, but to put a bit more detail on it, I think. Because at that point, then they are really going to need to decide what they want to do. Because to continue this us against the world type rhetoric only really works if the fans are on board.

11:14And I think the more they carry on with this and the more it's shown up in neon lights that they are guilty of these things, the less fans or the fewer fans are going to go along with them. And if you get to the very end of the road, it kind of feels like even, apart from the most one-eyed fans around, and every club's got their kind of share of those, but generally speaking, the common consensus, the general consensus will be, well, the options are that we accept this or we just accept some kind of weird alternative reality where the whole world is out to get us and we've been targeted for no reason.

11:47But we can't play anyone because no league will have us. Yeah, so there has to be some kind of end game. I don't want people to get confused about the idea that they could tie this up forever. They can't do that. They can't. Even if it goes to Cass, which it can't, even if it did, there would be a definitive ending. It's like going to the Supreme Court of the United States. Once that's decided, that's it. By nature, there has to be an end to an appeal. There has to be. People are speculating that they'll take it to the High Court, but the stuff about the inflated sponsorship deals and stuff would be pretty damning in that sense.

12:17And presumably at some point, I think this is probably just mass denial, isn't it? It's part of the grieving process because this is something that, you know, City fans and people that work at the club as well are going to grieve. It's a huge, huge thing. So the psychological effect of that is going to be massive. At some point though, surely the higher-ups at Man City have to start making a contingency for negotiating with the Premier League. there is an opportunity for them to go alright if we finally start cooperating maybe we can cut some sort of deal and make the punishment a little bit less severe but they're making that harder and harder with every day that goes by.

12:52I wonder if behind the scenes they are doing that. Maybe. But ultimately you can't overplay your hand right? You can't because to me the position they're occupying is almost one which says we are bigger than this. You can't do without us. We have done nothing wrong. You are targeting us and actually your product will be diminished greatly if we're not a part of it type thing. And actually, that's bullshit, isn't it? The Premier League will rumble on perfectly far without Man City. If West Ham got relegated, the Premier League fucking rumbled on, even though West Ham were a massive team at the time.

13:24If Man City, for whatever reason, have been relegated at the top flight before and everything kind of rumbled on perfectly normally. So they do need to understand at some point they can't continue to overplay their hand, I think. I mean, we asked our subscribers on YouTube, how would you punish Man City? and 69 % voted for an expulsion from the Premier League, 26 % voted for a points deduction and 5%, let's be honest, Man City fans, voted for a fine. Slap on the wrist. Did they think saying it's fine? It's all fine. Yeah, it'd be fine, yeah. Stephen Mannerman. It's fine. Do you both think that expulsion from the Premier League is a must?

14:00I would really, really welcome that because my logic basically is that they broke the rules in a systemic, deliberate way with the intention of artificially gaining status as a team who are at the top echelons of the game in the Champions League and whatnot. And I think the punishment should basically take that from them. I think expulsion from the Premier League does that. I think a massive, massive points deduction that guarantees a relegation is one thing, but then they are just down in the Championship, right? You can build up quite quickly from there. And this is a really, really long period of deliberate cheating.

14:34And as you say, and being dishonest about it as well. so I mean I think that would be an appropriate punishment I think it's easy for me to say that though isn't it I think the people actually making these decisions they need it to be they need it to withstand any sort of kind of challenge against it right so that they have to be sort of reasonable in terms of a punishment they think will stick yeah and also this is one of the rare examples in sports where the laws, the regulations, the rules have been broken to such an extent that it's gone beyond the very common phrase of needing to set an example.

15:12Yes. There is no other example that will come close to this. Yeah, this is a true punishment. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And it has to reflect as much. I think expulsion works. I did wonder about um you know a consistent points penalty every year for a certain number of years but i couldn't quite work out you know to my mind it'd be as many seasons as they've been cheating couldn't quite work out what the you know what what the point penalty would be every season just you know just in answer to this question really but i i personally think expulsion from the league where would you put them in league two right um and then i would probably liaise with the efl not me personally obviously but about what you could send an email what uh yeah what they would see is a as a fitting punishment uh or what they would want to carry over in terms of some kind of points penalty and then the problem that becomes a big problem for league two though doesn't it because what do you do in terms of the the number of teams in the league someone suffers from that, right?

16:15That's what I've mentioned before about maybe a team not getting promoted. Right. Or you bump up to replace. Yeah, which would be more preferable. Because otherwise you're punished, you're obviously punished. That's why I had the opinion on Monday. I think I've changed, as I said, I think I've changed my opinion on it now, because it really kind of hit home to me yesterday, the severity of it. I kind of had a problem with the retrospective punishment, stripping them of stuff and all that kind of thing, because I felt like it would open them up to... open everything up, the whole game up in this country, really, to so many different legal challenges.

16:50But it happened anyway. I think that's coming, yeah. That's why I've kind of changed my view. I think the severity and the fact that actually whatever happens, you are going to get that regardless. I also can't stop, I can't get past the philosophical, almost existential aspect of it, which is that, you know, if you're a Stoke fan or, you know, a team at a fleeting period, because I mean, of course, the Poulos FA Cup final. If you were a team who had a fleeting go in the Premier League and you didn't stay up despite a really good effort because you basically got battered by a team who were cheating, or whatever it may be, you know, it just feels so wrong.

17:30It's not just that, oh, well, you know what? They've only really hurt themselves. You know, they've been caught red-handed. It's not about that. They've cheated everyone they've played. Exactly, exactly. And I would say, I mean, obviously, Jim, it would sound like you were talking through your hat coming from you, so I'll say it. like that period for me which sticks in the mind it's actually not when it comes to Arsenal it's not the couple of seasons when they came close to winning the league and didn't before they eventually did it last season it's the season where City took about four of their best players they took Sanya they took Adebayor they took one or two others Clichy because they just they just fancied them oh they're really good Premier League players and we'll take them Villa suffered in a really similar way as well because they were doing really well at the time and it was about sort of climbing up the league and I mean these are just transfers aren't they you know players move between clubs all the time.

18:14But their transfers being paid for with money that wasn't there. Sure. And that matters. Every single one of those is a side-endor moment. Yeah, and also, I think it's really important for City fans to acknowledge that the seasons that followed that period that were under investigation would never have happened without the years before it. I think there's been a lot of mention of, like, even in response to memes about Guardiola, about, like, oh, you know, he wasn't there for all of it. But he benefited from all of it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it was an artificial position. Yeah. I find it staggering, just some of the things I've read, that people don't acknowledge that.

18:49Yeah, so just from a few of our listeners and viewers here, the Athletic Podcast also, this is from Generic Purple Turtle, but I also heard this because I listened to it. There's a lot of them about. The other day, the Athletic Podcast suggested the three to five seasons of a 20 to 30 point deduction. He says, I like that because a one-off relegation of point deduction doesn't feel like enough. I agree with that. I think that's effectively a European ban, isn't it? But does that feel like enough? You know, the problem is, if you get properly draconian with the punishment, does it not open you up to kind of appeals against the severity of the punishment and the whole thing lasts longer, right?

19:26Which is what goes back to your point earlier about maybe they should be negotiating and be on the table. Look, you know, sorry about this. We've got to do what we've got to do. Another said, 50 points for every season they're in breach. I want to see them scramble to stay up for the next five seasons. Sam says, transfer and loan ban for five years. No new contracts are allowed and the players are free to leave their contracts at any time during the ban. I don't really know what's possible in terms of that type of stuff, how much you can, because you're talking about restricting trade. They won't have any players.

19:53Exactly, yeah. So it will be a difficult tightrope to walk for the authorities when they come to dishing out this punishment because I think if you're seen as being overly draconian, it opens them up to being appeared against and be softened and all the rest of it. But there is a situation, or certainly the precedent, with the points deduction that Everton got for a single breach. So actually, even something consistent with that would be absolutely huge. I don't know how wide-ranging the remit is, but I'm wondering if there's a mechanism that can be put in place to make sure that Oasis can only play songs from Be Here Now at Neverworth.

20:27I wouldn't mind that. I wouldn't mind it, honestly. I don't mind that record. But I think it's a bit underrated, actually. Fair enough. It's the day Britpop died. we'll agree on that but I don't think it's too bad as we said yesterday Liam and Gallagher's take on this will be absolutely compulsory for everyone absolutely I think another factor as well is the inflation in the transfer market that is here to stay isn't it that is really a result of the distortion the distortion this summer just gone feels like a proper fuck you doesn't it it really does Anderson and Fernandez they heard about this in July or something this talk of good luck everyone and they carried on doing whatever they wanted to do anyway I think it's Look, the fact is, it is unprecedented.

21:07This has never happened before. There's a lot of what feels like speculation because no one actually fully knows what's going to happen. And of course, although we've all been very frustrated with the Premier League and the Commission, how long it's taken, a lot of that is because of the way Man City have behaved. And the other part of it is probably because it's difficult to do things for the very first time. You know, you're setting up these commissions to investigate things that haven't really happened before. It's an ultra-modern problem in the game. So we've got to give them a little bit of grace on that as well.

21:32I'll leave this subject now with a message from Johnny Undercover, who says city season ticket holder here. Is Tamworth nice? I looked at this. You've got to answer it. It's the mailbag. Exactly. Tamworth has a castle, an indoor ski slope, and the Tamworth Tap, a pub that was voted to be the best pub in the country by no less than camera in 2022. So actually, I think that might be quite a good day. Best pub in... Yeah, I officially love that. You can find something, I'm sure you can find something to do anywhere you go, Johnny. And I do think, you know, from the fans' point of view, it's a bit of a, you know, we'll rally around.

22:03If we end up in League Two, You have some good way days in League Two. Enjoy it. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people are obviously enjoying taking the piss out of City fans and how they're reacting and just generally gloating and enjoying the schadenfreude. And that's understandable. But they have also been lied to here and manipulated into going out to bat for the practices of the owners. Which is why... And they deserve sympathy. Yeah, they do deserve some sympathy, but it's why that is the absolute must-watch aspect of this. Because the moment the fans turn, if they do, in their masses, I'm not suggesting for one second this would happen but for example their next home game if there's a massive protest or they turn against the owners then that becomes really interesting because the owners kind of probably then realise there's perhaps no future in this because it's only going to get worse because if the fans are that pissed off now and they do for example end up in League 2 they ain't going to get happier they're going to get more annoyed so that's when it becomes writing on the wall stuff and there's also been talk of enforced sales and everything hasn't there so who knows we'll watch this space with interest.

23:34This is Nick and Jack from The Best One Yet, and we are excited to tell you about Walmart Business. Staying ahead of business trends means moving fast and adapting quickly. Walmart Business helps you simplify operations so you can focus on building the next big thing. Find exactly what your organization needs with their ever-expanding business assortment and everyday low prices. Keep your momentum going fast with reliable shipping and fulfillment. Eligible organizations can take advantage of tax-free shopping, both in-store and online, saving you more while getting you everything you need. It's Walmart built for your business.

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24:47Hey, it's Hannah Burner from Giggly Squad and the holidays are around the corner, which means I'm officially entering my hostess Hannah era with arm and hammer hardball cat litter. You guys know I love cats and fostering, but when I'm hosting, I do not want my house smelling like cats i want people focusing on my hosting skills that's why i love arm and hammer hardball cat litter it delivers long lasting odor control and forms compact clumps that make cleanup easy so that's one less thing i need to worry about when people come over be guest ready with arm and hammer cat litter find it now at walmart or amazon okay jim do you want to do the next question i do it's from maverick on discord who says this is the first international break since the world cup and we've seen a few new names in the squad such as branthwaite engamo and ghana aside from the squad players that went to the last tournament which new phases do you think will be on the plane and potentially even starting at euro 2028 well i suppose the the one that i thought of straight away who actually got some minutes on wednesday night was alex scott I think a lot of what we think England are capable of doing relies on the pushing of certain players.

26:01And I know Thomas Tuchel is very stubborn in that regard. But I feel like he, Alex Scott, is exactly the kind of player that we should be building a team for him to fit in, if that makes sense. Or really, certainly building a formation or a strategy that allows players like him to flourish. There was a great moment in his little cameo against Czech Republic when he drove with the ball. There were a couple of options that weren't ideal options and he just thought he'd try and bend in from just outside the box and you know he missed it was a good effort but I like the ingenuity of it. I like generally his vibe.

26:43I mean he looks immaculate but importantly he's the kind of player who is doing, this might be a little bit of a stretch, but I feel like Bournemouth play in a very, quote-unquote, mainland Eurocentric way, and he is so integral to that. And I see that as an important progression for England if they are going to break through that glass ceiling of being an elite footballing nation who aren't always, who are going to be there or thereabouts for major tournaments. The other person I thought, again, who we spoke about on Wednesday show was Ingemar. and the risk of repeating everything that was said on Wednesday I feel like he is just the next gen of that exciting winger and he brings a lot of people into the game he takes England into spaces very quickly that are dangerous to the opposition and yeah I think those are my two main ones I think yeah I think Alex Scott probably should have played I'd like to have seen him play a whole game I think he's an amazing prospect I like I like what he brings to me the the most exciting player I've seen and I said this already a while back is Max Daltman I think he's the real deal I think obviously he needs to be protected because of how young he is and he needs to be managed properly and it's probably too early to be talking about him playing for England he's not even in the under 21 squad there's talk of him being promoted to that quickly because I've obviously got an eye on that but he'll be 18 and a half by year of 2028 sure but yes Matt which is mad but to me he is the standout player of of that I've seen for a long probably since I've said before I think probably since Rooney so that's exciting obviously and clearly it stands to reason if I think that then I'd like him to be a part of it at some point but I also think you know tapping into what Vicious is saying there it kind of depends on what type of team England want to be right it depends on whether they want to my issue with England I've said it a few times this week now is that we always seem to want to try and catch up with what is happening at the moment.

28:49To me, it's like, why can't we just be like Spain? And by the time we decide we want to be like Spain, we do a shit version of it and the whole game's moved on anyway. And if you want to be a kind of team that really controls possession and keeps it locked tight at the back, but dominates possession and kind of probes and tries to get goals that way and play in that way, then you probably are going to need to play those types of midfield players because that gives you the opportunity to recycle it and all the rest of it. However, if you want to take the attitude that says in tournaments, you know, the best way to play is by sucking it in, soak it and strike, you know, hit on the break and be a devastating team like England did with their first goal against Spain or have done elsewhere in the past.

29:28Then those types of players then to me don't become as important. So it really does depend on what you want to go for. I'll bookend it by saying I think Max Downman's the most exciting young English player since Wayne Rooney. I think if he can find a way to continue his improvement and his growth and start to properly take games by a scruffle of the neck at 17, which he'll be at the end of the year, then that's going to be amazing. And I don't know what you think, Jim. Yeah, I think if you look at the way England play in the midfield at the moment with how well-established Declan, Rice and Nellie, Anderson are the two, like or the main attribute of both of those players is their energy right i think alex scott has that he's got that kind of roadrunner style quality and he's got good touch good vision all those things that are important at that level so i think there is a very very good chance that he can establish himself certainly as being in that conversation possibly not always as a starter but certainly as someone who can come in and like keep that style consistent um so i think he's got a very, very good chance of certainly being in that conversation, as I say.

30:32Also, I think I would be very surprised if Lewis Hall isn't established by then. I think he's really got the tools that we need. I know Nico O 'Reilly offers a lot in that position, and it's very different, but I think by Euro 2028, he'll probably be a midfielder. I was going to say, would you still pick Anderson if he's just playing League Two? Probably not. On that midfield area specifically, though, So what I also found quite interesting, it's a bit nerdy, but bear with me, is that the chat before the Czech Republic game, Marcus and I had a conversation about, you know, will he play Alex Scott in there or will he stick with Miles Lewis-Skelly?

31:10And he stuck with Miles Lewis-Skelly and he brought Alex Scott on late. They're both quite different players. Yeah, very different. Alex Scott is obviously brilliant at winning duels and winning the ball back and, you know, using the ball carefully, whereas Miles Lewis-Skelly seems to be less about winning the ball back and more about progressing the ball forward quickly. And if those two are the answer to, or both answers to who partners Elliot Anderson when Declan Rice isn't around, it's kind of interesting to know what the question is. Because there's very, very different ways of interpreting that position, in my view.

31:42And then obviously you've got Declan Rice factor as well. Yeah. I mean, Mars Lewis-Skelly so far has taken everything in his stride with an occasional yellow card within those strides. Yeah, I think he's a good player. I just don't think, he doesn't interpret that position the same way. No, absolutely not. And Adam Wharton's probably slightly different again, although he's more similar to Scott. Yeah, for sure. But he does it in a Myles Lewis-Skelly way. Right, yeah. His first thing is like, see the first pass. Break the line. Yeah, absolutely. But he also is much better wearing the ball back than Lewis-Skelly.

32:09Yeah. So maybe he's the answer. He does both. Can I throw in a bit of a rogue shout here? Sure. And it's partly because we're talking about a tournament that's in two years' time. And he's played in the championship currently, but obviously very highly rated striker in Will Langshire. Yeah. I like Will Lankstra. I think this has got all the hallmarks of an amazing development. He's hit the ground running in a massive way in the championship. The way Spurs sold him was quite a clever thing to do, I think. They've got a chance to match an offer and they've obviously got a sell-on clause. As far as I know, they can effectively sign him back at a 20 % discount, basically.

32:48Because if it's them buying him back, I guess it works like that. They would get a sell-on for back of themselves. he's been so highly rated for ages he obviously never really got a look in and this will do wonders for his confidence and I think he'll have a really big season and it's about whether he can progress what's interesting about it is obviously the obvious and unfair comparisons you want to make with him because of the journey is Harry Kane right Harry Kane's done what he's done but Harry Kane even when he went on loan to places like Orient to Millwall to Norwich to Leicester wasn't ever really prolific there he didn't really score goals in any great numbers there.

33:25Millwall was his best return by some distance and even that wasn't great. Lancashire's hit the ground running straight away and he looks brilliant. And actually, this dovetails back into a conversation we had yesterday about players who were coming up behind Harry Kane for England. It's too early to talk about that with Lancashire at the moment, but he does seem to have all the tools. The final thing I would say, the final clause in this very elongated point would just be that we also thought that about Liam DeLap, though. And who knows now because he's made a wrong decision in retrospect about his career progression and it's set him back.

33:55So now he's got to go back there and show he can do it all over again because he looks a million miles away from England now. Yeah, although, I mean, it's a good course correction, I think, to end up at Nottingham Forest. He's already, you know, broken his duck there. So it's a chance for him to actually just play, isn't it? And that's a big, big part of it. Your development is always going to stunt if you're not actually on the pitch. Yeah. Yeah, it's a problem position though. That's absolutely the one to keep an eye on. I hadn't thought of Will Langshere and actually that makes a lot of sense.

34:17Another one that might be slightly rogue and it'll be interesting in your take on this, Bish, because I think we are starting to see England become sort of consistently unreliable in defence. I wonder if Aidan Heaven is someone who might have an eye on getting himself in that conversation. I know he was very highly rated at Arsenal. I know he's quite raw, but he's put in some quite good displays for Man United already so far. What do you think of him? I think he'd be very lucky to be part of a squad that already has Jared Branthwaite, who does everything that Aidan Heaven does much better than Heaven's doing it.

34:52It's just the fitness record with Brandt, isn't it? I think he's brilliant. I think he's nailed on if he can stay fit. Yeah, oh no, without a doubt. I think he's incredibly exciting. I'd love him, personally, I'd love him at Manchester United. Aidan Hever makes a lot of mistakes. He reminds me a lot of, this isn't a particularly complimentary in comparison, but really early Tosin Adarabayo, yo. Right. Who was, back in the day, was fucking brilliant. Yeah. He was so good when he came through. I remember seeing him at Stamford Bridge for City in a League Cup game or something. He was absolutely brilliant.

35:27He was brilliant. So has moments where he's really good and then as soon as someone gets physical with him, even as a centre-back, he's like, well, I'm not sure I'm not that kind of centre-back. I remember Tussin went on loan to Blackburn Rovers and my mate who supports Blackburn was like, he might be our best player on the ball. And as soon as someone bumps him, he's like you're like you're quite big you know you use your physicality a bit more but yeah i see that a bit with aiden heaven sometimes he looks imperious and he strides out with the ball and you're like class that and then there are other times where he's just in the wrong place and you know he's a young centre-back he'll pick that up but in terms of doing so in the next two years i don't know i don't see that um i also just before we wrap on this because um just move on to the final question um i also shout out want to shout out josh king who i think might have a really big that's a great shout out he started really brightly for them i think this could be a breakthrough season for him depending on how Fulham get on and I think I mean Marcus won't thank me for saying this but if he does have the season I expect him to it'll be a move probably and we've seen in international football once you get a move to a bigger club it tends to get looked at a lot more he's also on Tuchel's radar because he brought him over for that training camp ahead of the World Cup as well so yeah.

36:39Alright final question Vish. Yeah it comes from Rex on Instagram Andy Burnham's campaign to allow alcohol at football has got me wondering which past UK Prime Minister would make the best football manager. I think it is Burnham, isn't it? Because he actually likes football. Yeah. I mean, Starmer likes football. He just talks about it in a funny way. Yeah, which makes me think he'd be a bad manager. Yeah, but then there are other managers who do that, don't they? Where you're like, why don't you just be normal? The story I heard about Starmer when, because he went on Football Clichés. Yeah. I chatted to a couple of the clichés guys.

37:14And they were saying like they were expecting him to be really good because they know he genuinely likes football. Yeah, and he goes to games a lot. It was really tough. And I also heard, do you remember Starmer on that radio interview with Kane? He's completely lost his mind. Yeah, he picked England's front three, wasn't it? And he really struggled. I think he was thinking about all the ways in which it could have gone wrong, so then didn't actually make a decision. Because he was... Such a poor communicator. Yeah. He was even really tentative on Saka being on the right, but clearly thinking, oh, well, Arsenal don't want to be biased.

37:43Yeah, totally. But it is Saka, you mad man. Media training's got in his head. Yeah. I think Taunty Blair would probably have had a good period of success before handing over to Gordon Brown, who would have done okay, but maybe not matched the same heights. I thought Gordon Brown would be a good manager. Truss, obviously, that'd be funny. That'd be great. That'd be a really fun week if you are a football podcaster, wouldn't it? It's a proper, like... Igor Tudor. Yeah, absolutely. Proper Tudor slash Frank DeBoer fucking stint, isn't it? DeBoer, yeah, yeah. So I think Burnham does actually authentically like football, so maybe that would be the best place to start but he'd be too drunk though wouldn't he yeah he probably would it's all he'd be talking about it's just nice I'd have a pint in the dugout again no because he eats a lot of snacks as well don't you know he eats a lot of pub snacks as well sure the pork scratchings will keep him you know mentally competent wasn't PM obviously Prescott would be a good manager wouldn't he God rest him yeah he'd be an old school manager wouldn't he yeah absolutely so would big Bill Churchill yeah it'd be industrial stuff the quotes would be amazing it'd be great under pressure pressure.

38:46Church was too posh. I don't think he's a football guy. Yeah, it'd be knackery though. Every half time team talks, like, yeah, but like, you said that about the last time that this was do or die. It's got 38 games season, mate. Save something. Going back to Tom T. Blair, who is behind all of this, he, didn't he get in trouble once for pretending that he saw Jackie Milburn play? Yes. And then someone did the sums and said, oh, you can't have done because he wasn't playing when you, he was retired before you were born or something like that. They're just ugly rumours. Again, shout out Gordon Brown, big Race Rovers fan.

39:14Right. Big Race Rovers guy. so there we go Thatcher would be hateful wouldn't she? Nothing but contempt for her own fans she hated football There's a famous photo of Thatcher holding a football with Kevin Keegan isn't there? Kevin Keegan subsequently said that he would never be involved in conservative politics because of his dad or something like that Anyway I hope that answers the question Thank you for the It probably doesn't Thanks for listening to the Football Ramble part of the Acast Creator Network we would of course be back tomorrow because we're back every weekday tomorrow in fact there'll be two shows because there'll be the main show and then there'll be some kind of game that you guys can embarrass yourselves on.

39:49I'm not on the show tomorrow so it won't be me. Thank you very much, Jim. Thank you. Thank you very much, Vish. Cheers. Goodbye from all of us. See you then.

40:04The Football Ramble is a Stack Production and part of the Acast Creator Network.

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