Mailbag: How can we fix football club ownership?

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0:38Selection varies by location. See Lowe's.com for more details. Soil offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii. Hi, it's Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman. It's back to school time, which means many of us are going to be busier than ever. But from getting out the door in the morning to enjoying delicious meals together at the end of the day, Whole Foods Market can help with convenient options and delivery. Plus, because it's Whole Foods Market, you can feel good about the quality of the ingredients. Shop back-to-school must-haves at Whole Foods Market in-store or online. Hi, I'm Jack Ravici, Kramer host of The Best One Yet.

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4:09Luke Moore: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Football Ramble Mailbag. Sheffield Wednesday, Sunderland and Winter Tournaments are the orders of the day. It's Tuesday 8th of July. I'm Marcus Speller. I'm Luke Moore. And I'm David Cartlidge.

4:33Luke Moore: Welcome to the Mailbag, everybody. Lovely to have you with us. Of course, if you want to get involved with the Mailbag, You can tweet us on X at Football Ramble, message us on Instagram and Blue Sky at Football Ramble, email us show at footballramble.com. And of course, patron people, you can get involved on the Discord and you can also leave a comment over on YouTube. No excuses, everybody. Now, we are going to start with this from Mahesh on Instagram, who has this to say. Sheffield Wednesday are in serious trouble. Would love to hear what you guys think of the situation. Seems like another case of a club being at the whims of a terrible, and now if reports are to be believed, skint owner who has no accountability, just like Vincent Tan at Cardiff.

5:18Luke Moore: So yes, if you're not aware of what's going on at Sheffield Wednesday at the moment, it's been an extremely difficult summer for them. They're in deep financial trouble. These recent issues started back in March where players weren't paid on time. The problems go back much further than that under their owner, Dejfon Chan-Ciri, the Thai businessman. I mean, he's been in charge of the club for 10 years, which seems extraordinary to me that it's been that period. That shocked me as well. Yeah, indeed. And they've had issues all throughout his tenure. And sole charge as well. There's no one else involved.

5:47Luke Moore: Exactly. He does it all on his own. Right, enough. Well, in 2023, he asked fans to raise£2 million to help the club pay outstanding debt with HMRC and cover wages. they've had transfer embargoes in the past they've just got another one or player registration embargoes as it's accurately described a points deduction happened in a recent season so again issues have been there for a number of years you've got the MP one of the local MPs who's a Sheffield Wednesday fan the Labour guy saying for crying out loud would you just sell the club you're holding it to hostage really as it was described and this summer the situation's got even worse some players still haven't been paid for May, meaning that a number of them have handed in their notice.

6:30Luke Moore: A number of players and coaches, including Captain Barry Bannon, are out of contract. And of course, absolute legend at the club. But if they're not being paid for two successive months, they can, under the FIFA agreement as a player, they can issue 15 days notice anyway and walk away, right? Yeah. And non-playing staff have not been paid, of course. They're often the first to suffer. The training ground is incomplete, so players are currently training at one of the local universities. Now, Chan Seery said in a statement at the end of June that he had rejected an offer of£40 million plus potential promotion add-ons from a consortium, because it was a US-based consortium, so they've had two bids rejected.

7:05Luke Moore: They told the BBC that. An individual from that consortium described negotiations with Chan Seery as the most unique he has ever experienced. And Sheffield-Wens' previous owner and former Portsmouth owner, Milan Mandaric, briefly suggested he would be interested in a return, but then decided against it. So, a lot to unpack there, gentlemen. and funnily, when Mandrich's name was mentioned, all this kind of stuff, you know, my mind goes back to other clubs who have been in dire situations and Portsmouth was one, of course, close to your own heart. Although that wasn't actually under Mandrich, but...

7:36Sure,

7:36Luke Moore: it's good to be reminded of that. He played his part. Indeed, he did. So, Mahesh is asking, what are our thoughts on this? I mean, I'd imagine we can guess, but David, you, your team, Sunderland, was up against Sheffield Wednesday last season because of course they were in the championship. And you've also had of problems at Sunderland too. It's hard to find football league clubs that haven't had their problems which is probably what I'll come on to in a bit. Yeah, that's the thing and that's the main takeaway from here and I think Luke's going to go into this a bit more but it's another bad honour at another club and another club is on the brink because of it and we've just got to keep asking what's going to be doing to prevent this from keep repeating itself because it's going to happen again.

8:19This is a high profile incident right now but there's been several of them we could name 20, 30 clubs off the top of our head right now.

8:25Luke Moore: And big clubs as well. Yeah, big clubs as well. But the thing is, once Sheffield Wednesday is sorted out, there's going to be another 10 or 20. This is going to keep going on until something is properly done about it. Yeah, it's a broken system. And as a football community, and I'm not suggesting that fans listening and us on the show here are in the vanguard of being to blame for this. But as a community, as an industry, as a sport in this country, we have engendered a system which does not work for the vast majority of the clubs within it. So if you are sitting at the top of the Premier League or you're a super club or you have a huge amount of income commercially and otherwise, well, income is commercial, I suppose, in one way, but a huge amount of income, you're unlikely to be in this position.

9:11But if you are further down the pyramid for several reasons, it is almost unavoidable. It's almost unavoidable. it's impossible to not be in this position because the model doesn't work and so what then happens is every club to an extent at that level is reliant upon some kind of benevolent owner who makes his peace with the idea of putting more money in than he's ever going to get out with the exception that maybe you're in the championship and then you get into the Premier League and then you get out that's kind of possible but even then that's on the never never as well because the moment you drop out the Premier League you're in big trouble again and Chan-Ciri's tenure at Sheffield Wednesday is another example of this.

9:52Now, it's a more spectacular example because he seems to be a very strange character at a massive club in Sheffield Wednesday. So it's obviously going to attract headlines. But the reality is that he's made a decision, or potentially his financial advisors have made a decision, that there is no more money here for him to get involved with. So he's bought the club for$35,$40 million, something like that. He's put something like$160 million in. He invested straight away. So, for Wednesday, did make quite a few high-profile signs. They spent a bit of money when he first came in. So, I want to put that out there, but it's also needing to put out there that then it just stopped.

10:30So, once, he comes across as a bit of a gambler and it seems he has gambled. Because they got to the playoffs a couple of times early on. Yeah, of course. Didn't happen for them. But the point I was going to make, David, was that if you estimate that, say, he's put in something like 200 million overall, well, his entire net worth, the entire net worth of his family is only around 500-ish million pounds. But these are loans though. So the loans are outstanding. And the loans that, yeah, so basically, and that's the reason why the sale is not happening. Yes. Because from the founder's point of view, they're saying, you're asking for too much money.

11:03And he's saying, well, I want the money I've put in to be paid back. Yeah. Not acknowledging that essentially what he's done is, as you say, gambled and lost, made essentially a terrible investment. That's not a disrespect to Shiver Wednesday, but a terrible investment. And he needs to cut his losses for the sake of one of the most storied football clubs in the country. And he may not be prepared to do that. And the problem is the system enables him to be in sole control of this club and sole control of what happens to it. And they're in a position from the football point of view where they're going to have just a handful of players plus whatever academy players stick around.

11:4016 or 17 on the books as things stand right now. There's no pre-season booked. The pre-season's not started. They've got no pre-season tour booked. There's no guarantee they're going to be able to fulfill the fixtures can't sign anybody they can't register Danny Rawls said he's not coming back as well he told them in April he's not coming back he's not reported for pre-season and he's their diamond he's what they had he's the one who's kept them going the last few years very highly rated country so but I think what's really important to point out though is that happy to talk about it through the lens of Sheffield Wednesday happy to show support with Sheffield Wednesday fans listening to this and say you know I support a club that's been there David does Fulham probably haven't at any point have they in recent years

12:18Luke Moore: I don't think they're relevant here. No, but you understand what it means. Totally, yes. But they're also reliant on a very wealthy, benevolent owner. This is a symptom of a system. This is a symptom of a football industry in this country which has enabled the Premier League to hold the Football League to ransom and to remove, almost surgically remove, any real way they can make money to sustain themselves. and when you run that alongside things like ballooning player wages agent payments all the rest of it there is no working financial model for the football league in this country and until that's sorted it's very hard to see how you unring a bell by the way so I'm not sure if it can be sorted without a complete overhaul of what it means to have 92 league clubs in England this is going to keep happening this is a particularly egregious example of what we're talking about but it's also very much a symptom of what football now is.

13:19Luke Moore: The sad thing is that it will probably take the end of a club like Sheffield Wednesday and maybe even one or two more massive clubs for everyone to start going, oh, actually, maybe we should. I understand that there's the proposed football governance bill which would form an independent regulator responsible for licensing clubs in the top five divisions and so on. So I get that, but you're right, Luke, when you talk about, you know, can you unring a bell? So there's a little bit of that. But the powers that be in football in this country, Premier League and stuff, are fighting too for now against that in any way they can.

13:57Luke Moore: Which, by the way, should mean that every single person who has any kind of interest in football should be absolutely for it. Yeah, of course. You know, I don't want to sound all kind of, you know, like a student on a university campus, but, you know, it tends to be those very wealthy individuals who are calling the shots. If they are all dead against something, probably for the common person, you might be for that thing they're against. But, you know, I think you're right. Look, there's so many people at the top of the game with so much interest. And clearly they've thought, oh, with the old trickle down, you know, the little parachute payments, and we'll do that.

14:35Luke Moore: But this is incredibly worrying. No club is bulletproof to this.

14:42Luke Moore: And every single club, as you say, when they're at the mercy of one owner or an owner with the majority shares, you know, you've basically got to hope that your billionaire or your multimillionaire is a decent person that does the right thing. That's what you're hoping for. On your point about the Premier League parachute payments and stuff like that. So the Premier League does give money to the Football League beyond parachute payments, right? It does do certain payments. it obviously contributes to the wider football people kind of reluctantly yeah they do things like they call them solidarity payments that kind of shit right but the point being that when they do that invariably they do it and extract as much back in return as they can get they kind of hold it for ransom right nothing's for free and I never go through one of these conversations without mentioning the bugbear of mine beyond all bugbears which is EPPP that is the most egregious way that essentially the powerful people in the Premier League completely fucked the Football League which is just more than anything else because I can briefly so basically they essentially said we want to remove your right to have academy prospects young lads that you're scouting through 90 minutes from each club yeah local networks local networks they can now go anywhere they want so if Man City for example find a player based down in Kent they think could be the next big thing there's nothing to protect say Maidstone in the same way Chris Smalling came through at Maidstone for example and they got a bit of money for that because he went through Fulham and then to Man United there's nothing to protect a Maidstone or a Portsmouth or whatever Sunderland because they're never going to be able to keep hold of that player anymore because of EPPP and the way Premier League were able to get EPPP through was by saying we're not going to give you this money you need unless you sign up to it so they had no choice but to sign up to it that That one thing alone should have an independent financial regulator in there for good governance at 100 mile an hour straight away.

16:46Because that is appalling practice by those people who have power at the top of the pyramid. So look, this is a symptom, as I keep saying. You're absolutely right to say, you guys, that the best that most football clubs can hope for now is to have a multi-multi-millionaire owner who happens to be a good person. Like a benevolent dictator who's always going to do the right thing. Never get bored. And when they do get bored, going to sell it to another responsible person. Yes, exactly. And that's just not a business model. It's an extraordinary position to be in, to be hoping for that. I think it's really, really grim for fans to be hoping out for that as well.

17:17Oh, we just need a billionaire to come in and save us. So I think it's really grim. Can I make another point that's just a little bit more controversial, but I do think it's an important part of this conversation? Because if we're using Sheffield Wednesday as a lens, we have to call out the idea that when clubs go through this, a lot of fans bear some of the responsibilities as well. And what I mean by that is if you are a Sheffield United fan, think about how you feel about this. Do you feel about, you think it's A, funny, because it's your rival club and they're going through the mill, because a lot of fans do, and it happened with Newcastle fans when it happened to Sunderland as well.

17:53Yeah, and I don't get it. The last thing I'd want is Newcastle and Middlesbrough to go bust. That's right. That would be terrible. There should be some solidarity because you don't hang around in the room and laugh when someone else is getting fucked because you're not getting fucked. This is not,

18:06Luke Moore: they've been relegated on the last day of the season. Ah, you've gone down. Yeah, exactly. This is not that, this is very, very damaging. It's a different level of jokes. Totally. Yeah, it's really, really dark. I don't think, I find it very bizarre when people say, oh, I hope they go bust. I hope they go out. It's just absolutely ridiculous. Powers that be in football know they can divide and conquer fans. Totally, yeah. And there's no solidarity between fans of different clubs with the odd exception, the Super League was one, but generally speaking, people don't come together in this way. There's no unifying protest movement that stops this stuff happening.

18:43So, you know, I feel for Sheffield Wednesday. They're an amazing club, you know, massive, great stadiums, amazing achievements over the years. You know, the Premier League club for a while as well. You know, they're a storied, historic club, like all the clubs really in the Football League are to some extent. And for them to be at the mercy of a kind of quite capricious, you know, unreliable, strange owner who's decided that he wants his loans back now, thanks very much, is frustrating to say the least. But it's also, we have to be honest about the fact that the Football League have allowed this to happen.

19:14And the reason they've allowed this to happen is because they've got absolutely no power because the power's in the Premier League and the Premier League do not care.

19:20Luke Moore: Yeah, and I think that as well, when you look at it, this is, it's obviously football heritage, but it should actually be English heritage, these kind of things. These football clubs. Absolutely. I mean, how many, you know, everything's for sale in this bloody country at the moment. You sell off the crown jewels probably. But football clubs are incredibly important. The word club was there. That was why they were created. Lest we forget. They're not, I know they're running a certain way, but these things are so dear to so many people's hearts. And I'll be honest with you, when you hear about certain owners from other parts of the world, and yes, they may well come in and run the club well, but do they actually get that?

19:56Luke Moore: Because when you talk about the Premier League and all the rest of it, if a handful of those clubs have had their way, they'd be playing in Super League right now. Yeah. Lest we forget. They don't care about you anyway. Exactly. Exactly. So if you come in and people say, oh, but you'll put off owners and you'll put off potential owners and all the rest of it. And I understand that, you know, the horse has bolted and so on. But people need to seriously understand if they want to come in and buy a football club or buy major shares, this is what you're getting yourself into. And so independent regulators, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

20:22Luke Moore: I don't know how you do it, but something needs to be done. It should be regulated because it should be, it should be. Yeah, at the very least. It should be as easy as saying, if you are someone who's looking to invest in something, a company or whatever, if you do it in this industry there are certain rules governing this industry which means you may not be able to do it the same way you do it as some kind of venture capitalist in some other sector because this is heritage and culture but also as well it's like in a lot of cities around the country you've got listed buildings why do you have listed buildings?

20:48Luke Moore: because we want to keep that part of the history yeah need to be protected exactly yeah it's almost like that with this if you have a building which people go it's just a bit of an old ruin actually it probably could do with a lick of paint whatever with football clubs they should be protected like that. Well, I think we're quite crap at that in this country now. I think we are, yeah. Because you look at Admiralty Arch, that's been selling off the luxury apartments for fucking foreign billionaires. You look at the BBC, well, that was original BBC building. That's been, you know, there's no kind of understanding, you know.

21:19People love The King Speaks, that movie. Well, the building that actually happened in, the key scene of that movie with the king, was there.

21:25Luke Moore: Yeah. No one stopped it being sold off. No, exactly. There's no idea of cultural heritage. No, no. It's dreadful. Marcus, if you carry on like this, this bloody studio will be a great touristic room I think that's what we all want we all want that or we might be removed for an enormous fee solidarity I want to shout on everything we've just said solidarity in support to everyone going for it for Wednesday because you know loads of us have been there as well it's not a very nice place to be it's embarrassing it's awful and we hope for a good resolution indeed we do alright coming up after this should we move summer tournaments to the winter

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25:01All right, what about this then from Adam, who's emailed us in, and it caught our eye because the subject of the email was in defence of winter tournaments. And he says the following, and this is a real eye-opener to this, and I think it's something to be thought about. We should have a good debate on this. At the last World Cup, says Adam, the press were all doom and gloom about a winter tournament, but I was buzzing the moment it was announced. And from a quality standpoint, it ended up being one of the best in years, which brings me to the Club World Cup here we go I've been looking forward to it for months however I'm being told this tournament is terrible and nobody wants it well I've enjoyed every minute of it the only thing that would have made it better in my opinion is holding it in the winter Adam's looking for attention

25:38Luke Moore: I'll tell you what he's looking for a fight with David just to be clear he says I'm not this is beer Adam's a Man United fan by the way just in case you think he's a fan of one of the teams well he says I'm not a FIFA or UEFA shield but if we were preventing the game from scratch tomorrow I think a tournament like this would absolutely make sense So here's the hill I'm willing to die on. The Euros, the World Cup and the Club World Cup should all be held in winter. This means every league will break from the last week in November till after Christmas every single season. I know it's a Eurocentric view and it could be problematic when we host a World Cup in the Southern Hemisphere again, but from a pure football perspective, it's better because players aren't knackered from a full club season.

26:14The quality is higher. He says the vibes are immaculate. That's his personal opinion. Internationals in even years, Club World Cup in odd years, and then Adam finishes by saying, I know the clubs will never go for it, but I think it's better for the players, not worse. We proved with the last World Cup that we can finish the season on time and still give them a proper break. So from that point of view, David, I know you're absolutely champing at the bit. No, he's thought about it. Yeah, he's thought about it. It isn't just beer. So it's like, it's almost like you don't have to pack everything in so the football's solid and consistent all the way through.

26:47You still have that summer break, but you pause and have an international team bang in the middle of the season when everyone's enjoying their football the players are still relatively fresh and you get a better result as a consequence over to you why is that bollocks? still on it why? I don't want more football I don't even want tournaments I don't want this Club World Cup to be going on right now yeah full stop or right now full stop summer, winter, autumn, spring I don't even care I don't want to see it

27:10Luke Moore: in its previous form was actually around winter time wasn't it? it was often played yeah because obviously everything kicked off with Manning Out January yeah whatever it was it was often played I mean I think that when he says it's a Euro-centric view, I'm actually, you know, and I understand Adam sort of holding his hands up saying, oh, look, by the way, I'm not sure it is. I mean, why on earth would you play the Euros in particular in the winter? The Euros, I think, is in the summer and I think we're all happy with that and I think that would be... So just to kind of point out that one there.

27:39It's in the middle of the club season. Still in the middle of the club season.

27:42Luke Moore: It would piss off the European sides and also in the years when you would have... I don't know what the schedule would be, but if it was to say you'd have a World Cup would that then go into Africa Cup of Nations straight after because that sometimes or often held well the Brazil domestic season for example runs this March to December yeah so from their point of view I guess what he's talking about the Southern Hemisphere is that like for them it would be at the end of their season yeah so so for them actually it would be based on this year the 2025 Brazil season the World Cup in that way would be happening at the last few weeks of their season yeah which wouldn't be good and all their players play in Europe anyway yeah I mean to get into some of the detail might be difficult although Adam has kind of but why don't we drill down to David say he doesn't want a full stop fine but I guess Adam's point is if you start he says it himself if you start on football from scratch I guess it kind of makes sense that you would have a competitive way of knowing who the best clubs in the world are and you're presumably saying that's just not necessary I just don't care yeah okay yeah it just doesn't matter to me I think Euros and the World Cup are completely fine in the summer that's where is I'd like a longer winter break.

28:52I just wouldn't have any football in the winter. Players need a break.

28:56Luke Moore: In the European winter? Yeah, in the European winter, yeah. So, but then I guess does that involve reducing the amount of Premier League teams? No, you can still keep the same amount. I just think there needs to be a nice break. The same that they've had in Europe for years. Yeah. Which the Premier League doesn't have. Yeah. And, you know, you can kind of have it off at the start of the set. So you can still keep your tradition. I think Christmas fixtures, your New Year fixtures are very important. I think there's a lot of history there. So I'd still have those. I mean, they'd come back for those.

29:24Luke Moore: They do. I mean, they have a sort of, I mean, the Premier League has sort of staggered it a little bit in January, haven't they, to try and give a bit of a break. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, but like how many breaks do they actually have now? Because they're playing in national fixtures during any Premier League break that they have now as well. Nations League, again, is still a new concept. So they've got that now as well. It's like, how much more football can you honestly cram in? Well, yeah. But I mean, the question is, you know, trying to sort of tackle this and having these massive tournaments because the World Cup in terms of quality perhaps not but in terms of fan interest and so on it's like you know the pinnacle of the game one could argue and he's saying that Adam's saying let's preserve these things by making sure that players are kind of a bit more fresh and so on and so forth so they're not kind of knackered I mean what I would say to that is I don't think because you know the Russia World Cup was in the summer and that was actually a really good entertaining tournament as well but is there any sorry to cut in but you said that and then Adam said this thing about the 2022 World Cup is there any correlation or causation sorry is there any causation between the time of year that a World Cup happens and the quality of the World Cup I think sometimes correlation gets mistaken for causation and people are essentially Adam in this case is assuming the World Cup in 2022 ended up being one of the best in years well there could be loads of reasons for that The fact that it happened in winter is not necessarily consequential.

30:49Luke Moore: Tactical trends and all that kind of stuff. There are a few things going on about it. Because like I say, when Russia 2018 happened, everyone was saying that was a brilliant World Cup. Everyone was saying that is one of the best World Cups you've had in years. And in Qatar as well, everyone was like, oh my goodness, this is absolutely phenomenal. And obviously the final and so on and so forth. So, you know, and they happen in different times of the calendar. I think from an England point of view, yes, I think England players were fresher in Qatar. You know, you saw that they played some of their best football under Southgate.

31:16Luke Moore: Okay, they went out in the quarters. But, you know, from... But if you drill down to what Adam's saying, he's saying in defence of winter tournaments. So David doesn't like the club well, loads of people don't. I understand that. I am sympathetic to the argument. What's the point of it other than to make money? It's nice to know if Chelsea are better than Fluminense, but you don't need to know it. So it's just extra football for financial reasons. But to drill down to what Adam's actually saying, he is talking about, international tournaments happening in winter. Is there a chance that winter tournaments would be better than European tournaments and then you do get what you want which is a big old break in the summer.

31:55It would be a longer break in the summer for sure if you can trust clubs not to go on these ridiculous tours and stuff like that. That's a quite separate point. So it...

32:02Luke Moore: But would it be a little break? You can't. The clubs would insert some other football in that time. We've already seen what Manning... I guarantee what Manning Aiton have just done this summer will become more commonplace with teams as well. Yeah, post-season tournament. The only thing I would say is that, taking it from a European point of view, is that if you were to do this and you say, oh, well, they'd have a bigger break in summer, well, no, because the season would be pushed back. You couldn't finish the season in mid-May if you'd taken a six-week break. I mean, World Cup's now going to be 48 teams.

32:29Luke Moore: So I think the idea of having every other summer off makes sense. It's just the thing that's come along and really kind of made everybody sit up and think, bloody hell, is there too much football? Is this idea of a club World Cup? That's what's done it. You used to have a little Club World Cup and a little thing that happened, as I say, usually in the winter, European winter or Northern Hemisphere winter, I should say. And that's what that was. So I don't think to tackle Adam's point of view, it should be completely changed around. I think that what may happen that they may feel like we're thinking about next summer in North America.

33:04Luke Moore: Is it going to be too hot for the players? Quite possibly. the thunderstorms and all this of it, would that benefit from maybe changing somewhere a little bit further back in the calendar? It's not going to change, but you kind of go, well, actually, yes. The issue to me is where the World Cup is hosted. As I say, the Euros is fine in the summer. Where the World Cup is hosted. The reason why it was changing Qatar, people were worried about the weather in the Middle East. There will be similar concerns when it's hosted in Saudi Arabia. I know Spain, Portugal and Morocco are very hot countries, but, you know, I don't know, evening fixtures maybe in Morocco.

33:34Luke Moore: We play games later. I was going to say in Spain if there's a game in Seville you know here they'll move it to a later time you cannot play in the midday heat in Seville in the summer you know so these things have always been there this is nothing new really it was just that that one in Qatar that they thought bloody hell in the Middle Eastern heat in the summer this is going to be ridiculous so that's the issue is where it's going to be is it going to be too hot and I think now we're thinking with North America this Club World Cup it's highlighted those two things the weather and too much football and I think the Club World Cup European teams would probably think let's bin it although some of them have made a fair few quid.

34:09Some people so maybe players think let's bin it but clubs it's far too much money on a field.

34:15Luke Moore: Well I think yeah absolutely. And they know that and that's why FIFA found the money. That's why that whole fit up that happened to get them somehow get it sponsored for a billion dollars and all the rest of it meant that if they do that they pay it forward to the clubs the clubs won't be able to turn it down and then the whole thing can happen. The ultimate goal is for this the Club World Cup is to be bigger than the Champions League. That's the ultimate goal. they wanted to take over that's where it is yeah well I mean as we spoke about the Club World Cup before in the mailbag we think there's probably or maybe an idea in there but it's just so overblown it comes down to the same old thing which is the endless greed financial greed and endless insatiable appetite for decision makers in football to give people more and more of football until they're completely sick of it and the problem is nowhere near enough people are sick of it because they don't think about things like that and I just think the idea of going back to this age old this age or kind of routine of the season happens from August to May and the tournaments happen every other year in the summer.

35:11That's just going to go now for not just because of the Club World Cup, but because of, like you say, expanded World Cup teams, you know, different parts of the world. The rest of it is worth pointing out in 2022, the English season did still end in May, just about. They managed to find a way of doing it. But yeah, I mean, so then they would have technically got time off after that. But I mean, there's only so much room in the calendar there's only so many hours in a day no matter how much money Infantino Seferin Trump whoever have and power they have they're not going to have the power to amend you know the fucking time and space of what the universe actually offers us that they can try they're not going to change us how long it takes us to revolve around the sun so it's an interesting talking point though from Adam yeah yeah very good yeah

35:56Luke Moore: yeah before we go for a break we've got a friend of the ramble Fraser who emailed us this. Sunderland fan here and delighted David is on so I can put one quite simple question to him. Will our Sunderland stay up next season? It's the big question, isn't it? Yeah, I think they will. Wow! There we go! Wow! Go on, talk us through that. Yeah, I don't think it's going to be incredible stories and getting into Europe or anything like that. I think it's going to be very, very close towards the end and it's going to be tight but I think they will. So you'd fancy them to start more than Burnley and Leeds United presumably then Absolutely For what reason?

36:34I think the style of play that Sunderland have Tell people who don't watch much Championship what that is Yeah I think basically at Sunderland there's a big idea to follow the model at Brighton at Brentford at Bournemouth as well and everything has been put in place to do that and it comes down from recruitment to playing style as well kind of a methodical approach to things. Not going going home, not being too defensive. I think there's a really nice balance there. I think Regis Libri has brought in a brand of football that is conducive to succeeding in the Premier League. Is that adaptable? Can easily be transferred.

37:16Yeah, very, very adaptable.

37:18Luke Moore: Which concerns we were saying on yesterday's pod about Scott Parker and Burnley. Exactly. And I think the football is very adaptable. And if you look at the talent ID so far this summer as well, everything suggests that they are going to keep on with their plan of bringing in young players that they want to develop and work with sell further down the line and keep that you know cycle up of doing that and they'll obviously add some experience as well and Christian Speakman who looks after all recruitment and such at the club he has said they're going to have to add some experience it's just the way it is because he did it in the championship as well where we're operating with young players but then they had the foresight to bring us like Chris Mevham who came in and he was absolutely outstanding and he was a big part of why Sunderland got up.

38:01And so that will really be really interesting because we've talked a bit earlier this season about the idea of, you know, for a couple of seasons now the promoter teams have gone straight back down again and you wonder whether this idea that they pull the drawbridge up behind them, Brighton, Brentford, Bournemouth and a few years ago even you could do it but now it seems really hard. If Sunderland can do it in that way and I didn't actually realise they were consciously looking to ape that type of model. if they can do it then it goes to show that I guess it is still possible but the problem is I just feel like for one of the promoted teams this season to do it they're going to have to rely upon another team having an absolute stinker and if you look at the profile of the teams in the Premier League last season that were immediately above the relegated teams who are all of course the promoted teams it's Spurs it's Man United they're not going to get relegated Wolves possibly but they showed a huge amount of improvement after that you get into West Ham and Everton who I mean West Ham have flirted with it of course they have but Everton never have I had this exact same discussion with mates in the pub just last week funnily enough and we were saying we need to pick some clubs out of there who could potentially fall into there and break the hoodoo of three clubs coming up and three clubs going straight down and Wolves are the one that we kind of set upon I think West Ham will be improved because Potter will have a full pre-season I still think he's a good coach so Wolves and you start to think never say never Marcus won't thank me for saying this but a Fulham for example they look way beyond it now and so did Crystal Palace you know so did Brentford and then you get into the teams who are actually pretty good so like it's hard Spurs have got a new manager they have they have well Brentford's interesting because Brentford have gone in my view have taken a massive gamble with Keith Andrews it could it could pay off

39:47Luke Moore: I think they're the one you're looking at but I don't think they'll go down because I think the clubs that's it I was about to say I believe in their recruitment But if you look at the quality, I know they've just... They're going to lose players as well. I know they're going to lose players. Yeah, but they always lose players. They're used to losing players. Yeah, exactly. They're one of those clubs who lose players all the time. Under Frank. Under Frank. Yeah. Or should totally give you. But you look at the squads of all these teams, they're distinctly better than the sides that are going up.

40:11Luke Moore: Now, that's usually the case, but I think distinctly better. Tell you what, the one thing you've got to hope for is Amarim keeps doing what he's doing at Man United. Yeah. I love the bold shout from David. He's straight in there, straight away, We're staying up. Whatever you are, Fraser. I'll tell you what, around April next year, you'll be on the Ramble a lot. You'll hear that played back to you. Are they going to get past them up to 12 points? Good stuff, though. Pete Donaldson's going to have me. It'll be good for... Kevin, are they going to stay up? Yes, although... No, it'll be good for football if they do.

40:42It'll be good for football if they do get a little bit of a better churn.

40:45Luke Moore: Absolutely right. So, yeah, I think friend of the Ramble, Fraser, I think he'll be buzzing after that. They've got the endorsement from David, Yeah. I'll give him a pitch. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. All right. Coming up after this, a big question about England.

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42:57Luke Moore: Welcome back to the Football Ramble, everybody. David, you've got the next question. Yeah, next question here comes in from Our Ball on the Football Ramble Discord. Would the Ramble, Marcus, swap Italy's results over the last 10 years with England's? Yeah. It's a pretty short answer, isn't it? Well, they've won something. Yeah, so it's... I think... Yeah, because I remember people saying this when Italy failed to qualify for Qatar 2022 and everyone went, oh my goodness. And immediately you had a lot of England fans go, yeah, I'd swap that for the Euros win. I think it's a cowardly answer to say yes.

43:40Luke Moore: Why? Because, because... David's fumery, by the way. Yeah, because Southgate's going to number on some people, man. Exactly, exactly. Loser mentality. Yeah, I know, I know. Literally doesn't care about a trophy. That's literally how much he's been radicalised. He was sitting in the office the other day saying, looking for the tournaments and how old he was going to get, when he was actually going to see England, where he'd go, I think I could make it to 2050. I know. I think it's partly sort of cowardly to say, yes. However, I would probably... Why is it cowardly? Explain that. So let me answer the question first, and then I'll go into that.

44:11Luke Moore: So I would probably say yes, because you have that trophy. It's the easiest question to answer in the world. It really is. The reason why I think it's sort of slightly cowardly is because Italy's results, other than that tournament, have been stinking at tournaments. It's out in the first round on not qualifying. And that's piss poor. And one of the great... Both of which we've experienced a lot recently. Yeah, exactly. A lot. Yeah. Once. Well, we didn't qualify. So once in the first round and once, if you go back further, the last 10 years. Well, neither within the last 10 years. Sure. One's just outside the tenures in 2014 with Hodgson and they're not qualifying with Euro 2008.

44:46Luke Moore: And we're not going back to 94 for crying out loud. No, I'm not saying we do that. So, the reason why I think it's slightly reluctant or whatever word you want to use is because the results have been piss-poor. And you look at the Italian national team at the moment, there's not much inspiration around it. There's not much going on. And they don't really sort of capture the imagination as they once did. with England there's that sense of you're kind of building and it's coming to something but also as well lest we forget you know okay England went out in the quarters in Qatar they reached the final you know it's participating in these things and going and knock out rounds I enjoy that do you know what I mean I want to win you want to win no David they've got a trophy England haven't fine how long has it been you've just said oh England's building towards something they've been building for God knows how many years and they're not anymore anyway yeah I think that's outdated.

45:39Luke Moore: Okay, fine. So like I say, I would reluctantly say yes, but it is slightly reluctant because all those first round exits and not qualifying, it's just piss poor. There's no enjoyment there. Whereas if you do get to a quarter or a final, you have enjoyed something. The journey is important. The result is ultimately the most important thing, which is why I would say yes, I would swap it. But you're taking away any kind of idea of journey and so on and the friends you make along the way. So that's why it's a reluctant yes from me. Okay. It's a big yes from me and it's a big yes from David, I think, as well.

46:11Luke Moore: Yeah. So that answers the question. All right, there we go. I just think that, you know, England had their crack at it. It's as close as they've been for a while. It was an enjoyable journey. I agree with that. I didn't subscribe to all the people who were complaining about Southgate towards the end because, you know, he deserved it. Even the worst case scenario of them playing some stinking football in the most recent Euros, they still got to the final. They still, at the very least, Southgate had earned the right to take them there because he had done so well relative to his predecessors, right?

46:41But that's done now. And the early signs of the next person doing it are terrible.

46:45Luke Moore: Fine. But my point is that when you're swapping the results, you're not swapping, oh, we get the win, and then we had a run and another run to the final. No, no, no. It's first round and or not qualifying. And to watch a World Cup or a tournament when England are not playing in, you are missing so much. It's just, to me, it's not nearly as enjoyable. So that's why I'm also, it's a reluctant, yes. You just put your old YouTube reruns of the 2020 European Championship and just get on with it. Yeah, I don't mind if they're not there. It doesn't make any difference to me. Well, it obviously does because you want the trophy win.

47:18I mean, I want the trophy win, but I don't know. You can't win it if you're not in half. I'm not miserable. Just like going, oh, England aren't there, just isn't the same. I've got a keen interest in it. Imagine David's going, we haven't qualified. Can we still win it? I don't think he knows that.

47:31Luke Moore: I think we've answered that. It's beyond hypothetical. So there we are. Luke, what's the last question? I don't think we ever get bored of Marcus England takes. They're just always there. Last question from Big Bubba Roberts. We're going to win it next season. Big Bubba Roberts on the Discord. Go on, Bubba. The other day I was listening to a cricket podcast. I had a debate. If it's indisputable that Shane Warne and Mattia Marilithorin are the best two spin bowlers of all time, then who is number three in that list? Phil Tufnell. So in a similar vein, if it's indisputable that Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are the best two footballers of the 21st century, who then is number three?

48:07Tom Kenny.

48:09Luke Moore: I've got an answer for this. I know what you're going to say. What? Zendin Zidane. No. Ronaldinho. Nope. You've got me. I was going to say Luka Modric. I like that. My mind inevitably leapt to Luka Modric. I like that. Yeah, okay. That's made me, yeah. Six Champions Leagues. I think a lot of people might say... I think the best player of that type of the 21st century for sure. Also what he did with his national team. David's not having it yeah so it's a national team World Cup final World Cup final Nations League runner-up I'd love to put that in there what else well semi-final yes as well yeah in the a lot of Spanish players yeah yeah of course I think there's got to be a lot of Spanish players go for it I mean there is that Xavi Iniesta yeah I think I think you've got to look at anybody who played across the Barcelona and Spain teams yeah so you're Xavi's Iniesta and I think I'd go for Xavi or Iniesta I mean, I said Zidane straight away because I was trying to get in Luke's head there and I failed.

49:09Luke Moore: But the reason why I said Zidane... Nothing to see in my head, mate. I was quite appalled, really, from what I saw. But Zidane won the Ballon d 'Or in 98 and obviously that 98 World Cup. And it doesn't have the longevity in the 21st century, maybe, what you're talking about with these other players. So I think a lot of people would immediately go for him because in 2006, you know, he was brilliant at the World Cup and so on. But I think you're right. I think that Luka Modra is a great shot. I didn't actually think along those lines but you've got to look at the Spanish players as well as David says and I think Xavi and Iniesta are the two so the only reason I didn't go for them and perhaps I'm wrong in retrospect because if you look at the tournaments they won in a row at international level I'm alone it's incredible that's not been done before and if you look at something like Iniesta's won four Champions League but Modric's career was longer and at club level in Champions League terms he's won more but also really inspired his national team as well yeah but you can argue Iniesta's not done that no no no but I think he's more talismanic Modric yeah but also as well from what Croatia achieved it's remarkable for you know the size of the all that of course it is absolutely I just think with Spain as well and Barcelona is that I don't know that feels like a particular important period in football in terms of style as well because they had a particular brand of football style of football and the outcome and conclusion of that was trophies at both club and domestic, at club and country level.

50:39Who's your answer? You guys haven't given an answer.

50:41Luke Moore: Well, I actually, I think your Modric take is quite a compelling one. And I think the reason why is because also it kind of feeds into what the 21st century, how football has evolved as well. Because some people may have thought, say like Thierry Henry had his best years in, say like the noughties. But I think with Henry, to take him, obviously the main man at Arsenal. but as he said quite brilliantly on Stick to Football with Neville and Co when he went to Barcelona he was asked to do a job because it wasn't his team and he said the quote along the lines of you know at Arsenal I was kind of Michael Jackson whereas at Barcelona I was Tito sometimes you've got to do that but I'm still in the band you know so again it wasn't his team whereas I think you've got to look at those players who are absolute linchpins of the team Modric definitely and obviously it was Messi's team but Xavi and Iniesta are there and Busquets probably and Busquets but I think though three I mean because you know if I want to get star out I might go oh what about Kakar but I mean no I think Modric and Iniesta and Xavi are the three there I think it just depends how you interpret the question in terms of if you're going to talk about Kakar and Henry clearly they've not won things at the level that these other players have but in terms of talent and getting you off your seat all that kind of stuff but Luke only one of them has played for Tottenham Hotspur does that go in or against his favour I think it's amazing that he came out of the darkness into the light I haven't got any V for Spurs I don't care but Modric's career was unquestionably longer than those other players you've listed 100 % he's still playing I hear you I hear you I do so it's a good debate maybe we can put it on social media people can tell us it's a really good question my inkling was maybe to go with Xavi just because he played for the greatest club side that we've perhaps ever witnessed in our lifetimes so that would be my but you'll go Modric David if I could I'm going to go for Xavi yeah there we go good question lovely question though yeah brilliant Excellent.

52:28Luke Moore: Well, thank you very much for listening to the Football Ramble Mailbag, part of the ACAST Creator Network, of course. Please do send your responses, opinions and questions for next week's mailbag and subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. I'll be back with Luke and Andy Brassel tomorrow for more Ramble goodness. See you then. See you then. Bye.

52:55Luke Moore: The Football Ramble is a Stack Production and part of the Acast Creator Network.

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54:18Luke Moore: I think Arsenal are going to win the Premier League and there you are for more hot takes like that watch or listen to Football Weekly wherever you get your podcasts

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