Mailbag: Should clubs refund fans after thrashings?

0:00Hello everybody, welcome to the Football Ramble Mailbag. Refund Culture, Players Changing Positions and FIFA Prizes are the orders of the day. It's Tuesday 9th of December. I'm Marcus Fella. I'm Luke Moore. And I'm Jim Campbell.

0:24Hello everybody. Good to have you with us. Remember, this is the Mailbag. You can ask us anything on this show. Unlike Rio Fernand with Daniel Ramirez we won't get angry about it this wasn't in the rehearsal or we might get angry about it Marcus this intro wasn't in the rehearsal no it wasn't in the rehearsal what are you doing sorry have you ever scored goals against Jim Campbell I was a defender what are you talking about fair enough this wasn't in the rehearsal get in touch on x blue sky or instagram at football ramble comment on youtube or email us show at football ramble.com or of course friends of the ramble you get priority go to patreon.com forward slash football ramble to sign up and you can do it on youtube as well If people think I'm being unfair to Rio Ferdinand, I should remind them, if they don't already know, or inform them, sorry, that I once did a show with Rio Ferdinand and he was two hours late for it.

1:12So I deserve two hours worth of my time back, which I want to spend taking the piss out of him. Or were you two hours early? No, he was two hours late. Okay. Now, we're going to start with this from Craig on email. Eastbourne Borough recently lost 7-0 away at Torquay and after the defeat, they pledged to their fans that the players would be reimbursing the cost of tickets for all travelling supporters. What are your thoughts on this refund culture, as Craig has put it? Isn't watching a shocking performance every so often just a part of the rollercoaster we'll sign up for? I ask this as a Sheffield United fan who saw a lot of shite in the Premier League a couple of seasons ago.

1:52Interesting question from Craig on email. We've also got an apology culture as well, when players will often tweet out, or whatever, and say, I'm really sorry about that performance. et cetera, and so on. Look, I know you've got strong opinions on this. You have a strong opinion about never apologizing, don't you? We're never commenting, never apologizing. Never, ever explain. It's a royal approach. Can I answer this question first? Because I think, I think you've, you're in a unique position here. Well, I'm also the only person in this room, I'd wager, who's been to see both Eastbourne Borough and Eastbourne United.

2:23Hence the unique position. Exactly. Yeah. So I feel like I, among the three of us, I have an affinity. You finally demand an apology. With Eastbourne Borough fans. and they know what they've done. Arsenal and Fulham tend not to need to talk about refunds. Well. Although, well, okay. But anyway, over to you, Luke Maw. To me, I feel like when you see players pledging this stuff off their own back, they are acknowledging that it's not the case on this occasion that we've just been beaten, which can happen in sport. We've performed in a way that's been so poor or there's been something going on which makes it unacceptable what we've done.

2:58Now, I find that really interesting because that means the players themselves feel they crossed a Rubicon to something unacceptable in terms of their performance. Now, I always think whenever I get asked about this kind of stuff, and this kind of refund thing does come up occasionally. You do see it happen, as you mentioned, or you've alluded to round about. I once interviewed Chris Kirkland, who was in goal when Wigan lost 9-1 to Spurs. Right. And he said the atmosphere after the game was funereal, as you'd imagine. people were beside themselves, they were pissed off. He also said, he didn't mention any names, but he said there are a couple of players there who weren't that pissed off.

3:39And that made the other players who were pissed off even more pissed off, right? And then he said, pretty quickly, actually, before we'd even left and gone home, there was talk about we should probably reimburse the Wigan fans' travel because, you know, we've got money. Most of them haven't compared to us. This was basically beyond the pay. It wasn't we got beaten, which can happen. and it was poor. Kirkland also said, I think he felt they had quite a good game, which shows you how bad it was for them. And then he said, we chatted about it as a team, and I think two players refused. Who are you going to name now?

4:13He wouldn't name them, but he said... Do you speculate? He said two players dismissed it entirely out of hand, wouldn't hear of it, it wouldn't happen, no way, it's not how it works, we're not doing it, which meant they couldn't do it. I don't know if they ended up doing it anyway I can't remember but he said he said it felt it felt really really really bad so the Wigan team that day were there substitutes well you can name the team if you want anyone can look it up themselves can't they yeah yeah yeah so I mean so I just think that for me it feels like it shouldn't creep in and be part of a part of the overall milieu of how players and fans relate to each other because I just think that's a really dangerous territory to get into but I do think if it comes from the players themselves and they feel like there's been something that's amiss or that they want to acknowledge that they've actually not been anywhere near the standard then that makes it kind of interesting but I do think as I said if you go into it over and over again it can become almost ridiculous look the other thing I would finally say before Jim comes in is just that there's a part of me that thinks that away fans should be able to travel for free anyway yeah given the way given the way that the finances in football go and how much money the players have at the top level to me I don't think that's an outrageous thing to say some of them subsidise it though yeah a lot of them subsidise it don't they but it's not yeah you're making a bigger point than that but Jimmy you were going to say something yeah I was I think Luke's right to point out that when the players themselves offer it up then that's absolutely fine I mean unless like they've lost like 1-0 or something like that but you never see that happening it is generally when it's something that's absolutely catastrophic yeah fair enough Fair enough.

5:56Yeah, maybe the Man United fans could have been getting some refunds off. The Grimsby, for example, at the end of this season. Still, though, you know what I mean. Value for money. Extra football. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you're right, actually. So, yeah, a subsidised refund. I'm not going to say I should pay more, but they should think about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got a lot of bang for their buck. That's one to send to Jim Ratcliffe. Go some extra time. We'll demand a bit more after the game for you to get out. I wonder sometimes if managers actually use this as a way to sort of shock their players into action.

6:27Perhaps sort of suggest to the team that you've let the fans down so badly there, you need to reimburse them. Because I think it's one of those things where some defeats are so bad that they require a kind of back-to-basics approach and essentially just ripping everything up and starting again. A complete kind of mental refocus. And if you do something as extreme as demand that your team refund the players, particularly if they're players that don't earn a huge amount themselves, then that is quite a publicly humiliating thing because it always comes out, doesn't it? And it also draws that line, doesn't it?

6:57It makes it very, very extreme. And it might actually be something that is not always intended as a kind of acknowledgement of what the fans have put up with there. But obviously that's an element of it, but something that can be used to motivate players. I do broadly agree that the kind of sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit element of football is something that we have to just live with and get on board with. I just think, to use the 9-1 example again, I just think that it's a tacit admission that they've wrapped their hands yeah yeah that they've not put in the baseline level of effort because I just don't think that a team in a league game can realistically lose by nine or eight goals but concede nine goals without they just completely wrap their hands absolutely and so even the chat about doing it is almost an acknowledgement of that isn't it which then opens itself up to a whole other can of worms of being like well hang on a minute how is that even possible It's a financial dunces hat, isn't it?

7:52Basically, yeah. It continues to shame. You put on yourself. Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I echo your thoughts totally. I mean, the real victim for Wigan fans that season, by the way, was that they lost 4-0 at Fratton Park to a relegated Portsmouth. Yeah. Portsmouth were terrible that season. They got whooped by them 4-0. Well, refunds all around. Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree with what you've said. You know, does it set a precedent? Some people will be worried about that. I kind of think well you know if the players do that I think it's it's a nice gesture or the club or wherever it comes from I don't think worrying about then everybody saying right come on as you say we lost 2-0 away to Arsenal come on in the FA Cup we need a refund here I don't think you're going to get that people aren't really doing that though are they?

8:39no exactly I don't think fans are going to do that and I think if one or two started saying you know again if you go somewhere and it's a poor performance and you can get beat 5-0 at the Etihad or whatever then there's something about it. I think that if the players and the club offer that, it's a little token, it's a little sweetener. Yeah, that happens on a case-by-case basis, really. And I don't think it breeds a culture of it necessarily because it's such a rare thing when we're talking about these big scores. Certainly in the Premier League, very, very rare indeed. So I think it's a nice gesture.

9:17but as Luke said it's a really interesting thing to say yeah we kind of stopped trying there but I think for the fans they pick up on that because you can tell if players stop trying I mean there was there was a journalist who I've worked with a few times who when he was watching Chelsea there was a player playing for Chelsea who he said I was very sure he basically wasn't trying and he said I stopped watching the game and watched this very high profile player play for a number of top sides and I looked at him and went that is a player who's not trying and he does not give a shit anymore and the fans were rightly really, really angry with him.

9:50But again, some players just go, yeah, whatever, it's my job. To me, that's the manager's job. Well, indeed it is. So I think that it's the one thing that you cannot tolerate as a fan is a player not seeming to try to wrap their hand in, as you say. And so if there's an acknowledgement of that and then go, look, all we can do now, we can't change the result, we can't play that game again, but here's a little bit of money. I think that is quite a nice gesture, but it's very few and far between. as it should be, because of the situation you're talking about there. So what would be the threshold for you as a Fulham fan if, say, Fulham go away to a...

10:24I mean, I suppose you'd probably get into the territory of going away maybe and losing to a lower league even to cut badly or something like that. I mean, to be honest with you though, again, you kind of accept that sometimes this can happen. It's got to be that kind of... Because I cannot think of a team that could beat Portsmouth that I would be so surprised by that I'd need a refund. Yeah, well, I know. And Portsmouth's quite difficult. It's a long way to travel from a lot of places. I think as well, especially for Premier League teams, these kind of results, beaten eight or nine nil, something like that.

10:52I mean, okay, so take Scott Parker's Bournemouth when they got hammered at Anfield. Was it eight nil? You know, again, I'd have to watch the game. Did they wrap their hand in or were they being taken apart? But was it just a shocking day at the office and they're being taken apart by a team who were just relentless going, you know, we're going to rack up the goals here. So that's what I mean. It's not necessarily a scoreline. The scoreline is indicative. Again, I don't think... I said earlier, in a league game losing nine that is indicative you're not there's no way I don't think there's any way apart from a Haley's Comet event you should lose a game by more than four or five goals yeah Arsenal actually have done this after the 8-2 at Old Trafford they offered essentially the the cost of of a ticket to another match which is like a version of that that was that was one of the most entertaining Premier League games I've ever seen I bet it was before that I'd have thought two goals at Old Trafford yeah I'll take that but yeah I mean so that's interesting that such a big club has kind of set that precedent as well I would also just add that for example to back up my Portsmouth points the team I support you know did Pompey fans demand their travel to be reimbursed after they were knocked out of the FA Cup a few years ago to Harrogate Town no because it was at Fratton Park so they didn't need to you'd still want the bus fare back after that wouldn't you at least we didn't need to inconvenience ourselves to travel to Harrogate yeah which apparently in a very nice part of the world.

12:15But next home game, I do want to see a packet of crisps on every seat. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah, I think so. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Not the multi-pack smaller ones, a grab bag each. Ah, oh, come on. Yeah, that's... Don't be too greedy. Nah, come on. I think that's got to sustain you through both halves and half time. A grab bag is perfectly adequate for that. And let's also be clear, a grab bag is just the size that a normal packet of crisps used to be. Is it? Yeah, come on. Jim, that's what I've told myself for many years. Shrinkflation. Indeed. by the way before we go to the break I just want to pick up one more thing that Craig said refund culture he references I don't know what that is as in there's a culture of people maybe demanding a refund that kind of thing because I was thinking that normal working class people get fucking stiffed in this country so I'm not sure there's a refund culture anywhere is there yeah maybe HMRC there's a refund culture try buying a ticket to any live event and not getting stiff by some admin fee some processing fee some purchase fee it's mad it's mad so there's not a refund culture but I think there probably should be for a lot of people.

13:14Right, okay. I just want to make that point. All right. Thanks for your email though, Craig. Well done, Craig. We appreciate you. All right. Coming up after this, we've got some chat about players changing position.

13:35Yeah, we've got another question here. Welcome back, everyone, from Stuart Morgan. Hello to you, Stuart. Hello, Morgsy. Jim, you want to say hello to Stuart? Hi, Stuart. Well done. Which current or former players should have changed position? There are notable examples of players who have changed positions over the years, either permanently or temporarily, with success, from Mikel Marino to Gareth Bale. Has Mikel Marino definitely changed position? I wouldn't say that he's permanently changed position, but he's done well enough there that I think he'll be in the rotation for that position. So I think he counts on that basis.

14:06Okay, so we're not just talking about players who've stepped in and done a job for the gaffer. We're saying permanently they're going to... I mean, that's often how it starts, though, isn't it? I think so, yeah. He said, which players haven't changed positions, but seem like they really should have? As a Chelsea fan, given the way that some of the strikers toiled with mixed results during his time at the club, I genuinely think Marcus Alonso should have been given a run up front. While he lacked pace, he was tall, powerful, and had a good shot on him. Which players spring to mind for you? I'd like to see Diogo Costa in his pump as a sort of a dirty centre-half, or in the engine room in the midfield.

14:40I mean he's obviously a very effective forward but he loved that part of the game there is a sort of proud history of strikers who went back to be centre-halves later in their career you'd have the quite extreme example of the great John Charles who was apparently very proficient in both positions throughout his career but Chris Sutton did it Dion Dublin did it it was more prevalent then yeah I think the skill sets were when the game was a bit more maybe rough and tumble it's poacher turn gamekeeper stuff that's what I like about it very much so Sutton was I mean I remember on some of the early championship manager games, Chris Sutton was a set centre-back and a striker.

15:13That's mad, isn't it? It's great to think about that. Well, I'll tell you something. Right now, Harry Kane is a, would it be a trek artista as a deep-lying playmaker? Is that the word they use? Yeah, that is the word they use, but I wouldn't say Kane's that. No, but in time, the way he's picking off, getting the balls off the centre-halves and so on and playing those passes. My favourite of those phrases is the German Raumdeuter, which translates to space investigator. that's good are you sure about that yeah that's lovely that's lovely that's really really great the former Man City goalkeeper Edison I thought get him out on the pitch anyway yeah there's a lot of you know modern goalkeepers where I just want to see even in a pre-season friendly even for 10 minutes just to see how they look out on you know outfield well Manuel Neuer is a sweeper isn't it Trekkertista at number 10 by the way oh is it at number 10 I can't remember well is it I could Google listen to another podcast I'm sure producer Tom will supply us with that information any second now he's typing away he's typing away good well I'm going to fill for him and say Manuel Neuer, obviously sweeper-keeper, then to say he's a sweeper, it's not a huge stretch.

16:13But it actually is because you can't use your hands, for example. But Manuel Neuer playing, imagine not having the goalkeeper duties. I'd just love to see it. To see what... He'd be possible, because I mean, his passing range, as we all know, is very good as well. I think he would be a sort of, he'd be the deepest defensive midfielder rather than the centre-back for me, I reckon. No, sweeper, Jim, because sweeper gets the ball. It's a position you don't really have these days. Some of the tactical Tommy touches, Sorry? Some of the tactical Tommy touches. People are perverts for tactics. Okay, you don't have to use that.

16:43Okay, I don't have to use it. It's done now though, isn't it? They know who they are. My hands are tied. They've speculated that the next iteration of, say, if Guardiola doesn't get so bored of football, he just quits. Explodes. Yeah. Is that, like, if Man City are chasing a game in 10 minutes to go, they'll take the keeper off. Yeah, I mean. And put another outfield player on. And almost like an ice hockey type vibe. That feels like a Guardiola style overthink from those nerds. But would you like to see it? I'd love to see it, but it would be just nonsense. The crazy thing. Track Artist was like a number 10, by the way.

17:16Okay, cool. Yeah, I did that on my own, Tom. What is the deep line? He's on YouTube. What is the deep line playmaker translation? I can't remember. Tom, get on it. I'll fill for you while you do it. It's more, when I was thinking about this question, I looked at... A register? Yes, it might be a register, actually. I looked into it it's actually more common than you think the two ones that came into my mind I know this is not specifically what Stuart's asking but just as a bit of context is that Vincent Kompany fancied himself as a defensive midfield player didn't he? I think he might have even been signed for a defensive midfield player Yeah he was certainly when he came to Man City that's where he was prevalently playing And then when Javier Mascherano signed Barcelona alongside the greatest midfield player team to ever play the game he just went and played centre-back didn't he?

18:00He was really good Yes Another good example They had such a high line though didn't he? That he was kind of in the same area He was a really good example. He became a centre-half. But those two positions, like holding midfield and centre-back, they are different in a way. They are. Because the 360-degree kind of understanding of being midfield players is obviously very different. But I don't think they're that different. It wouldn't be... It's almost the same way that you could argue the centre-back and the centre-back and the centre-forward is kind of... They're almost yin and yang. Yeah. Do you understand what I mean?

18:29I do, but I think just to assume a defender can step up and play a defensive midfield role I think is foolish. Riccardo Calvalho Big Ledley King used to talk about that Yeah well Riccardo Calvalho Andy Braslofton makes the point that Riccardo Calvalho is a former Chelsea player he could do that really well he said but when Rio Ferdinand tried to do it he struggled a bit because it is quite different I mean John Stones would be a couple I wasn't in rehearsal I was definitely into midfield I wasn't in rehearsal Training is the rehearsal Yeah yeah Okay John Stones would be an example of a more contemporary Premier League player Another player who was really good at that actually was David Luiz Remember there was a time where he was pushed into midfield and he did a really good job there and a lot of people thought that might be where his future lay but he ended up just reverting to centre.

19:10I mean him in the middle of a three was absolutely ideal. He was a funny player wasn't he? Because we all think of some of the kind of more like kind of spectacular chaotic moments of his career but he was quite often imperious as well. So I'll tell you a current one playing for Fulham. I'd love to see Calvin Bassie at some point further up the pitch. Really? Because Bassie He loves it as well. Oh he absolutely loves it and he's going to maraud up there anyway. Totally. Well, Bassey, so he reminds me a little bit of David Luiz in the good sense, the kind of box office sense, because I know Luiz, he had a bit of a rick in him.

19:41But I mean, David Luiz won the Premier League, you know, very successful career. But Calvin Bassey, he's really good on the ball, very skillful. He can maraud, as you say. And I would just love he was put in a position and take your pick maybe on the wing, something like that. And just to be told today, no defensive duties, just to see what he would do. and obviously it's a fantasy conversation when Fulham are like they can't finish above 10th or below 12th in the league so why not give it a go it's not within Marcus Hilfer's fibre to do something like that so it's not going to happen but Calvin Bassey for me would be one of those players who genuinely I would love to see him what he could do further up I think he's a really good centre half I think he's perfect for that kind of mid-table Premier League side which I hope Fulham can get back to mid-table soon I'll take that all day long thank you very much but yeah one of those players there's something else about him, which I do quite like.

20:35And actually, Joachim Anderson loves a kind of a raking ball out to the wings. Again, I wonder if he could step up to that defensive midfielder kind of thing. To be honest, he would be doing the same thing because he loves a diagonal. It's the 360 thing though, isn't it? That's the really tough thing in that position. From my own parish, now this is something that, depending on form, could sound like praise or criticism, but I think Gabriel Martinelli has what it takes to be a right back. He's really good with he's a really good defensive player and obviously we know that he's of course he's got a lot of attacking qualities as well because that's his actual position and I think if you were to slot him over on his right foot in that position he'd be able to do a very good job there I think one of the most successful changes of position you have to say is Joel Linton being put into that very effective midfield as they did with Alan Smith many years ago at Newcastle or was that actually did that start under Ferguson I think it did didn't it Joel Linton I mean it's been incredible because he was a bit of a laughingstock wasn't he yeah I mean he was a bit unlucky they used to use the phrase too big to fail about Joel Linton because they kept playing him despite him not being particularly effective I think he'd also hadn't he been more of a wide player in Germany which is even stranger it is yeah well and that's what I mean I think that's a sign of a true position change to think of somebody playing their former position and then you think oh yeah that is weird but I do find it remarkable though when players, I mean this is pre-professional career, but Jamie Carragher, was Jamie Carragher, hang on a minute, I get confused now, was he a striker?

22:09Most of them start off as strikers. They're all the best player that any of them know by a million miles, so they get to choose to play up front. But you do find that funny, so up until, I don't know what it would be, and it might not be Carragher, forgive me, but there's definitely, we all know, names leap to mind. I pretty sure Saul Campbell played further forward as well. Yeah, and actually Carl's hero was Romario. like he was modelling his early game on that so you think of them and say I don't know when they get remoulded into a defender or whatever it is you know they're probably they'll be in their teens certainly you'd think probably around the age of 16 maybe when you're kind of in the youth side or whatever it may be it just seems to be odd like think about the people and this is again it's a really foolish thing about the people you grew up playing football with you think of them well that guy's a defender he's always going to be a defender and you think suddenly in their sort of mid to late teens they become something totally different.

22:58You don't know many people like that, but then I suppose if you're talking about players who go on to play elite level, they've got a skill set, they've got an understanding of the game and the coaching and all the rest of it to make sure that they do succeed in other areas of the field. But yeah, I think that there's some, there's not many examples, but those, I think, yeah, Joel Inter would be certainly one that stands out for me for reasons given. But a good question though. Yes. But yeah, Regista is a deep line playmaker. Yeah, which is what Andrea Pirlo became he did I mean you could say that's a position change because he's more of a number 10 and then went a bit further Ryan Giggs another one anyway we're moving on from this guy sorry I get bogged down with it suddenly all the names leap to mind Paul Sculls right moving on left winger yeah yeah exactly yeah once every four summers Jim yeah it's a myth he only played I know it's a myth move on no you said you're going to move on for about four games you played left wing anyway Nick you were impressioning this is my fault I'm sorry this wasn't in the rehearsal are you going to accept it's never going to not be funny is it accept Jim's apology apart from when Rio did it every time I accept I accept your apology Jim right this from we're held to ransom we're held to ransom by the host to just do what we want to do I know yeah right I'll be asking for an apology for you if you don't shut up now this is from you demand 12 on discord one of our oh good what it was just a surprising name we like the discorders we love the discorders especially when they're channeling Richard Blackwood yeah absolutely The British Will Smith.

24:28Who didn't know how to zest a lime that time. Do you feel that history... Sorry, I used to stand behind Richard Blackwood in the queue for the canteen at Capital Radio. I'm so glad that you clarified. There was a long enough pause there. Were you stalking Richard Blackwood? He was a very nice man. At the start of that sentence, you said, sorry, and I accept your apology. I just wanted to interrupt. Now, from Udaband12, he says, do you feel that history is taken far too seriously in football? Some clubs forever go on about their team's history, which I feel betrays the up-and-coming sides who have ultimately made the Premier League and the EFL much better.

25:04What do you guys think? First and foremost, should we have a little guess at who you demand 12 support? Man City? It could be. It could be Man City. Wrexham, maybe? It could be Wrexham, couldn't it? I think it's a fair question. It just feels like it might be quite a loaded question. Well, okay, okay. Sorry, the up-and-coming sides who have made the Premier League and the EFL much better. much better. It was shit before. Yeah. Shit before Ryan Reynolds. That's an interesting place to start though, isn't it? Because if we, let's kind of focus on a lot of history to be fair. Sure. I don't even know he's a sports rector, I'm guessing.

25:37But the Man City thing here, like, I mean, is there an argument that they made the Premier League better? When you look at that 100 point season and some of the incredible football they played and some of the incredible other points tallies that they've had and of course their treble winning season, I think there is, but it does, you know, it has essentially happened through a kind of inflated and artificial way. So we'd rather that wasn't there, right? With all the respect to those, to Guardiola and to those players and those teams. Can I go for another angle? I just, if I'm being totally even-handed with you, Demand 12, which I always try to be, you know, I can understand why if you're a team, say, like Brighton, right, or Brentford, who have gone up through the leagues in a certain way, or even, you know, Bournemouth, right?

26:21Within the parameters of what modern football is like now, which is kind of a little bit distasteful anyway, but just put that to one side. They've gone up through the leagues, particularly in the case of, say, Bournemouth, and they've established themselves as a Premier League side. They've done that by having good managers and good recruitment. Eddie Howe done a brilliant job. I just did a good job. Blah, blah, blah. I think if I was a Bournemouth fan, I would find it quite tedious to always be reminded of the idea that, say, Nottingham Forest had this amazing history. Leeds United. And they should, quote, be in the Premier League.

26:52Now, I've been on record as saying that I think it's great that Forrest and Leeds are back in the Premier League for those reasons. But I think if you're a fan of a more new money, no, it's not even new money, but like a new, you're making your history now, right? That's what Chelsea fans of the West say. Yeah, you talk about your history, you want, we're making history now, right? I can understand why that would be a little bit almost emasculating to be, oh, we don't somehow don't deserve to be there because we haven't had the history of doing it. The whole point of it is to undermine the current success, isn't it?

27:19And that should be resisted. Quite. And I think you could even go further and say the story Bournemouth have had, you know, handful of games away from no longer existing, a game away from dropping out the Football League entirely. For them now to be in the Premier League is probably more interesting. Properly established as well. Yeah, it's probably more interesting than the latest soap opera at Man United if you want to look at it that way. And Man United are traditionally the biggest club in the country. So I do think he's hit onto something here where we should probably check ourselves and be a little bit more respectful of different types of history and the teams that are making their history now.

27:54I agree with you because I think Bournemouth and Brighton, right now is the best time in their history, as you say. And I think that's an amazing thing. But I don't think that talking about Leeds United and Nottingham Forest history, as you use those examples, I think they did that. And so I think that can be mentioned. The culture of your club is massively important. Ultimately. massively I don't think history is taken far too seriously generally I think it's not taken seriously enough would be my general point well I think it's not in the question but I think the history is often taken too seriously when certain teams play each other and you think well the last time they played each other was 15 years ago what's that got to do with now and you kind of go oh well we've got a history and we've had enough of experts and all that kind of stuff yeah Tom laughed at that one so I'm staying in yeah okay he doesn't like it back at him does he is that your no I'm just trying to get my head right Is that the gallery you're playing to?

28:47That wasn't in the rehearsal. I'll stop saying it when he stops laughing. Yeah, all right. A lot of people say this. It's like a little tickle button you've got. You see, people say that the secret of good comedy is timing. It's not. It's repetition. Yeah. In my view. Well, right. Just hammer it home over and over again. And stealing other people's jokes. People accept it. Well, I think... But really, I wasn't doing it as a joke. It was essentially... He was quoting a failed joke. Yeah. Very different. All I'm saying is... Recontextualising it into an actual joke. I'm so good about this. Jim's been pretty rock solid on this Rio Ferdinand stuff from the very moment it happened on Friday and I respect it.

29:20Fine. I just think as a man who's been an apologist for Saudi for such a long time it's fitting that he died such a public death.

29:31Yeah. Oh dear. I, I, How are you going to bring this back? I don't know because that was not, that was not in rehearsal, was it? Yeah. No, I think, I think if, you know, I think if there's any justice and we're going to take, history seriously Sheffield FC should be in the Premier League because you've been given a bye all the way up there no I think that we're wanderers exactly yeah I think that I think you're right Luke I don't think a team's history is taken too seriously you get a lot of pub chat with certain fans and it's the kind of our club's bigger than yours but what are you basing that on and then well we won two European Cups it was a long time ago you know are Uruguay a more successful footballing nation than the Netherlands for example like do you know what I mean well they are Okay, are they a bigger footballing nation than the Netherlands?

30:18Sorry to keep in the question. Oh, okay, right. Slightly different. Exactly, yeah. So it's, as I say, there's a lot of pub chat around this, and that's fine, don't get me wrong. We do enjoy indulging in that as well. But I think to answer the question fully is, I don't think it's taken far too seriously in football. And I think that the historical side of football clubs should be cherished, however that is. and remembering, you know, previous times and great wins and things that a club has done brilliantly in the past, whether that is just based on achievement, I think that's totally fine. And I think a fan base should remember those things because what are we without history?

30:56Exactly. Are people without a future? Exactly. Very nicely put, Marcus. Thank you. And that was in the rehearsal. Well done.

31:13Okay, let's get back to serious matters. This is from Tyler Durden. I love this question. What other prizes should FIFA invent? I'm going to go for the FIFA prize prat. Gianni Infantino presents it. He has the authority to bestow such a thing. Dishing those out like Oprah. You get one. You're a prat. You're a prat. You're a prat. Rio just gets hit in the head with it. Sticking into his skull. surely though if he I mean such a fine defendant he would try and head it away and it's stuck in his skull and that would yeah alright yeah and he can't say that wasn't in rehearsal he's out cold out cold on the floor and when he comes round after his medically induced coma yeah he's the first thing he says is pranked merked merked you fucked it merked merked was that what he was saying merked yeah that was the name of his TV show wasn't it yeah World Cup wind-ups.

32:11I tell you what, that's an amazing story that a man has gone from literally doing World Cup wind-ups on ITV4 or whatever to hosting the FIFA World Cup draw. It wasn't very good, but he made the journey. At either end of it. He's made the journey. Neither of them are very good. No. What a player he was. Yeah. One of them was a show that was quite simply too big for him and the other was the FIFA draw, obviously. What was the question? What other prizes should FIFA invent? The FIFA Merced Award. Well, I think that the problem, one of the many problems with FIFA, just to flip this question on its head, is that they are doing probably too many prizes.

32:47Yeah, I think the only prize should be the World Cup. Yeah, they did one too many. But it's not just that, though, is it? It's not just that, because they've got the whole FIFA the Best Awards, haven't they? Oh, yeah, it's basically to try and rival the Ballon d 'Or. Yeah, well, listen to a couple of them. But it's not just that, though, Marcus. That, in a way, is kind of okay. Because it used to be the case, didn't it? The FIFA World Player of the Year back in the 90s. But they've got lots of other things. Go on then. They've got the FIFA Fan Award, which just seems to be... Jim won that. I'm all for celebrating fans, of course.

33:17But is it going to go to like, I show speed? Well, it's just, it's completely random. I love that though. It was introduced in 2016. We've slept on this. It was introduced in 2016, right? First year 2016, Borussia Dortmund and Liverpool supporters, got it? Oh, right. I thought it was like an individual fan. You just get a phone call one day. that would be good could be next time they did then seem to go it down the road of kind of more individual supporters who've got very noble stories behind them but in 2022 they just gave it to Argentina supporters I guess presumably because they won the World Cup yeah in Qatar yeah but I mean so what?

33:53they were the best fans according to FIFA who are you to and the next one is FIFA Special Award for an Outstanding Career Achievement right 2021 they gave this one to Christian Sinclair for the most international goals scored by a female footballer and Cristiano Ronaldo for breaking the record for the most international goals scored by a male footballer. Right. I mean, that's not that terrible. I think, but you're missing a crucial thing here, right? You're going to put on a buffet, you need an event. Yeah. Right? But it seems to me they're just trying to sidle up to Cristiano Ronaldo. Oh, that's cynical.

34:23Breaking the record for the most international goals is an award in itself. Yeah. You don't get any, that's the whole point. Give him his golden boot and sod off. Falcao got it in 2016 for an amazing contribution to futsal. Okay. Okay, so I see what's going on here. Pelé got one in 2022 for just a great recognition because I don't want to take anything away from the dearly departed Pelé, but I think if you were going to level one thing at him, I don't think he's not been acknowledged. You want to take that award from the dearly departed Pelé. That's what you want to do. I don't think many people are out there who like football or even the ones who don't are kind of unaware the contribution Pelé's made to football.

34:58It just actually shows this kind of internal self-aggrandizing nature of FIFA, doesn't it? Where they are convinced that like... they themselves are a really special thing. And if you put on this kind of ceremony, everybody involved will be like, oh my, wow, we're being acknowledged by FIFA despite the fact that they are the people who are doing the exceptional things. Yeah, and I think even if you, I mean, Pelé obviously died in that year and maybe you feel like you want to mark him in a way that kind of, you know, Hollywood does it with the Oscars where they put that montage up. It's like, yeah, fine, all good stuff, you know, fine.

35:29But I don't think, you know, you sit down and go, oh, one person who's really slipped under the radar in the world of football is fucking Pelé. Donald Trump knows who Pele is as we saw I just think it's a little bit remiss I think that too many prizes stop trying to get involved all the time surely I think a prize just because I'd love to see who they gave it to just best football man good football man the good football man prize Tim Sherwood gets it I'd like get Keezy back in bring him out of the goal I'd like to see them start sneakily giving prizes for other sports like a sort of half style take over of all sports That'd be great.

36:05That would be good. That'd be absolutely brilliant. Yeah. I just don't, I don't want to answer the question sincerely because I don't respect it. Right, okay. Next one, Jim. Yes, Wakey Wakey has been in touch on Discord. He asks, what would the Ramble team name the new US soccer mascot? He's a brown, happy looking dog. Yeah, describe the dog in more detail though, Jim, because the mascot's been announced. He's not got a name. There's a competition to name him or her, but describe the dog for people who won't have seen it and have no interest in looking it up. So very helpfully, the dog is wearing the US national team away kit.

36:40Lovely little bit of promo for that as well. Brown dog looks probably like a Labrador, perhaps. So I'm going to be very hungry. Big tongue. Big tongue. Looks quite wide-eyed. Looks happy. Looks happy. Very, just classic, classic dog. Maybe soccer dog is an appropriate name if we're not all scarred by that movie. I like that. Yeah, he's got his arms folded, which is unusual because dogs famously do not have arms. I think Wakey Wakey's asking this question because he just wants us to say the words soccer dog again when it reminds us of that film we saw. Great movie. What about Poch's Pooch? Poch's Pooch.

37:16Poochettino, surely. Poochettino. Poochettino. That's excellent. There we are. See, we got there together. Excellent. Well done. So good that we rehearsed this. Rio Pardinand. Oh, it's a cat. That works. Doesn't matter. It's about the level of detail he puts into things, so why not? Dennis Poore. Dennis Poore. There we go. Stray given. That's a very, very old Ramble referee. Stray given. Think of some American players, though. I was going for, I think what I was doing with the purd in that, I was going for poor, and I got confused about the cat. Brian McPride? Is the pride of the litter? No, it doesn't really work.

37:50It doesn't really work. You're thinking of lions. Yeah, I am, aren't I? Yeah, I mean. It's got England on the brain, haven't you? Puchetino is very, very good. Puchetino, I think we'll stick with that maybe. We're all agreed there. Okay, finally for now, from Joey on X. Hello, Joey. A lot of good stuff on X, including Joey's tweet, which is, in honour of Vish going to Australia for the ashes, what is the furthest you have travelled to be massively disappointed? I mean, that's going to take some beating. If England get beat 5-0, caveat slightly by the fact that it's Vish's job, so he kind of has to go.

38:21If England get beaten 5-0, I don't think you can go any further than really the eastern side of Australia. Yeah. From here, I mean. New Zealand would be the only option, surely. Yeah. And he's done that as well. When we had that ramble watch-along during the Euros, England-Slovenia, that game was die. The evening was great because we obviously mingled with a lot of you good people. But having to travel, what was it, 50 minutes on the tube to get up there from where I live on the London Underground and we'd have to watch that. So the furthest city from London with a population of more than 100 ,000 people is Dunedin in New Zealand, Jim, you're right.

39:00it's 19 ,081 kilometres now Australian cities don't make the top five here they're all New Zealand cities but Australia does make the top ten I mean Sydney is the furthest place away you can get from London with a population of more than a million people so he is actually going really pretty much as far as you can go to watch some pretty depressing cricket the furthest I would go to be really disappointed I mean the obvious one is you know I've travelled to... I was going to say, Portsmouth away day. Oh, yeah. But the thing is, you don't remember the away... The two best away days I've ever done with Portsmouth have been to Crystal Palace away, 2-0 down at halftime, 1-3-2.

39:41Leeds United away. In the season, Portsmouth got promoted to the Premier League and also won. Lomano Trezor Luolua scored and did a somersault right in front of me, and I got my photo in the programme. That was brilliant. It was a great day out. You don't tend to remember the away... I'll tell you, it was a really depressing one. My old... my old old enemy's Reading I went to the Medeski to see Portsmouth get loose to a Jason Roberts goal once mid-week as well mid-week and I wasn't driving so public transport back to Portsmouth mid-week from Reading which in itself is a very depressing place someone was saying to me on the weekend on the radio that Curacao who qualify for the World Cup is the equivalent in population terms of Reading qualifying for the World Cup you'd rather go Curacao absolutely Absolutely.

40:25I mean, I have traveled to many a small town in the middle of the week, quite often to provincial nightclubs to do stand-up for five or six people. What's the most depressing stand-up show you've done coupled with the longest journey? Aberystwyth. No, Aberystwyth is actually amazing. How long does it take to get there, though? Oh, it's about five or six hours on the train and it's similar by a car because it's really hard to access. But actually, Aberystwyth University have one of the best gigs in the country. They know it. They put it on. They go to the effort. They made it really, really special.

40:57I remember going to Swansea to perform in a, I don't know if it was an Oceania nightclub, but it was that type of nightclub, and there were about seven people in there, and everybody was disappointed. Still get paid? They were all dickheads as well. Still get paid? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Of course you still get paid. You don't get paid as a cut of the gate or anything? No, no, no. You get a flat fee for most gigs. But if you were crap, did you have to pay for that seven people's bus fare home? Yeah. They didn't demand it, but they probably, would have deserved it, actually, from what I remember of the gig.

41:27Maybe there should be a refund culture for stand-ups. Can you imagine that? Stand-up hasn't been decimated enough by so much of what's going on in that industry. That would filter a lot of people out. What we need is really more independently wealthy people in the creative arts. Yeah, absolutely. That would be playing to their heart. I think what you could have is it further strengthens that gate. Think about a stand-up comedian that you don't like, right? I don't have to say it. Okay, I've got one. Right, good. I thought you might. You hate all stand-ups, though. But anyway. but that's fine I like Jim Jim doesn't do it anymore to be fair that's why I like him and I'm saying I'm saying that because I want a groundswell to try and bring him back I've thought of one that I don't like and you could go along to that gig and go right everybody we're all in this together everybody shut up nobody laugh at anything we can get our money back yeah I'll be up for that and just so you know the comedian I was thinking of is Josh Widdicombe he's a fan of this he's a fan of us is he?

42:23Yeah, he was once... He's mentioned us. I don't know if he's a fan of us. Sure he's a nice fella. Don't like his output. Okay. Fair enough. What a way to end. I once had a gig. It was a new material gig that went really, really badly and I was paid£20 for it. This is great. And I was so embarrassed by how badly it had gone. I tried to give it to a homeless person and I couldn't find one. It took me fucking ages to find a homeless person to give it away to. Don't you dare wrap up the show now. Carry on to you. Yeah, that was it. That was the end of it. I was honestly... There must be other stuff that was depressing.

42:52I was wandering around London looking for a homeless person to give£20 to and just no takers. That's how badly the evening had gone. Chris Kirkland just near us screaming, give it back to him, give him the money back. This wasn't in rehearsal. Admittedly, I didn't travel that far to do this, but it was massively disappointing when I went to a temp job in Leatherhead and I was told, basically, I turned up shirt and tie and I was told, you're just going to be putting flyers in newspapers and folding them and then stacking them. And I was like, any little suit. Why is he wearing a shirt and tie for that so funny?

43:25Because it was an office job But that used to be the culture of it It was, not nowadays I love the idea of seeing you in a cabinet You know he's a big fish Newspaper in global speakers That's the first rung son Citizen Kane Anyway, so I did that I did that for the How many days did you do that for? Two days And I think it was halfway through the second day Or like at the start of the second day I was like, wait a minute. I went, these newspapers are last week. It's out of date. And I was like, do you want me to carry on? She was like, yeah, we're not going to send them out now, but can you just finish them anyway?

44:03And then can you throw them away at the end of the day? And then can you piss off? I want to do the job. Finally, we're really going to get into this, because this definitely does involve traveling. I had a job in New Zealand doing door-to-door sales. I had to go to different shops and try and sell my wares to people working in the shops. Your wares? So it was like, yeah, you get given the stuff. And I had all these. It wasn't bacon, was it? I had really cheap umbrellas. It wasn't bacon. No. Really cheap umbrellas and kitchen scissors. Oh, right. And I didn't do a very good job of selling them, but I sold some.

44:34But the thing that made me just wrap my hand and leave the hold all full of stuff on the side of the road and go home was as I left one of the offices that I was trying to sell in, there was a lady, like an older lady, and she put her arm around me and said, are you okay? And I was like, yeah, I'm fine. And she was like, I can't remember the exact words, but it was along the lines of, it's just that you seem like a really nice boy and this is no way to run a living. I was like, okay. I had a trial period for a similar thing where you would go door to door selling sort of like cleaning products and things like that.

45:08Quite a bleak, depressing job. Very David Brent. Very much so, yeah. and there was a guy who was like one of you know a full time employee who he was driving us around and I was sort of like this was like a trial period for me and I hated it and I was never naturally going to be a good fit of that it's a horrible thing I decided I didn't want to do it and he told me at the end of the session that if I didn't take the job he didn't get paid unbelievable did you take it? no this is your trap to get out of stitched him right up well there we are I hope that answers the question certainly maybe not big on the travelling thing but there were times when we were a bit disappointed.

45:44Yeah, because I think even when we take into account the fact that Vish has gone all that way and it is quite funny. He is, at the end of the day, still the cricket correspondent for ESPN, covering the ashes. He's also in very sunny climates. Yeah. He gets to try, you know, eat more new food, doesn't he? Which he can put on Instagram. He also stole one of my jokes for his column the other day. One of your jokes? And people... Wow. Okay. That you previously screenshotted from someone else making it on your Instagram story. That one. I took the baton and passed it on to Vish. Yeah. And I'm very pleased that he did it.

46:12Yeah. Thank you for listening to the Football Ramble, part of the Acast Creator Network. Please do send us your responses, opinions and questions for next week's mailbag and become a friend of the Ramble to join the conversation on our Discord. You won't regret it. Well, look at the standard of some of the questions that people on Discord are asking. You could raise the bar. See you tomorrow.

46:43The Football Ramble is a Stack Production and part of the Acast Creator Network.