Mailbag: What makes a big club?

0:00Hello everybody, welcome to the Football Ramble Mailbag. Biggest Flops, Big Clubs and FA Cup Magic are the orders of the day. It's Tuesday 13th of January. I'm Marcus Speller. I'm Luke Moore. And I'm Jim Campbell.

0:24Hello everybody, welcome to the Mailey B. Mailey B! Mailey B! Mailey B! Mailey B! Mailey B! we should have given Macclesfield an easy yesterday shouldn't we yeah do they deserve it well they haven't won the cup fair enough remember you can ask us literally anything on this show get in touch on X that felt really late night didn't it it was Caesar the geezer over there Caesar the geezer nice blow me believe a fish believe a football theme yeah okay fine Roy the Rovers more like get in touch on X Blue Sky or Insta at Football Ramble comment on YouTube email us show at footballramble.com and of course friends of the Ramble you get priority at patreon.com forward slash football ramble and of course you can sign up on YouTube as well now this is what I mean when you can ask us literally anything this from Al on X how big is Jim no Al asks this average depends on the weather yeah and who's got it now is the magic of the FA Cup back asks Al or had it never gone away and we'd simply mislaid it you know as you get older and and you approach Christmas and some of the things you dislike about Christmas become part of the charm like what Christmas songs yes maybe some Christmas songs that you don't really like but you sort of chill out about or just kind of annoying things that happen in the family around Christmas that like oh this happens every year but actually it's become part of the charm This question to me now has actually become part of the magic of the FA Cup.

2:01I think it keeps it alive by acknowledging it. You know, we talk about the magic. You have to talk about the magic to keep it real. The magic has never gone away for me. No. I've always loved, particularly third round FA Cup weekend. This has been one of the most magical FA Cup weekend in a long time. Macclesfield did a lot of the heavy lifting on there, but still. And it varies naturally from year to year, depending what type of year we get. sometimes you get a year where I'm sure I can't remember off the top of my head but sometimes you'll get a season where all the lower league teams drawn against Premier League teams will just get beat and that's that and it's like okay you've got a quarterfinal line-up which is underwhelming or something like that and sometimes you get you know a Chesterfield you know or a dare I say it lads you know a Portsmouth you know so well you do you do to appreciate the magic of it I think you have to look at the competition as a whole don't you you can't just look at the final or who wins it.

2:56You've got to look at these early rounds as well. And the whole, you know, the real FA Cup is the friends we made along the way sort of thing, really, isn't it? It is. I mean... I would also, because Marcus, you've got to understand that put aside the fact that in 2008, Portsmouth win it. Think of the semi-final line-up and think of the quarter-final line-up, right? Yeah, no, there's your magic. The quarter-final line-up is Man United versus Portsmouth. Portsmouth win. Battered them. Battered them. They were lucky. They should have folded the club. Yeah, that's where that waterfall came from. It's the bullets they took from Portsmouth that day.

3:30It's like Old Trafford as well. I'll tell you what, I'd bloody love Portsmouth to get United now. I wouldn't. It'd be odd, considering they both went out. But let me just list the quarterfinal, because I think it's really important to ignore it. Very important, yeah. Because whenever we talk about it on this show, we just talk about Pompey winning it, and that's my fault. Portsmouth beat United at Old Trafford. Oh, yeah. Barnsley beat Chelsea in the quarterfinal. They did. Cardiff beat Middlesbrough, when Middlesbrough were in the Premier League at Middlesbrough and then West Brom beat Bristol Rovers who got to the quarterfinal when they were in League One it was incredible the semi-finals are West Brom Portsmouth Barnsley Cardiff if we were sitting here now that is crazy exactly that's what I'm saying no one can realistically say the magic of the cup wasn't there that year but even if it was the 1970s or 80s and that was the line-up that would be crazy as well it would in 2008 correct incredibly so I think it does depend on on what happens.

4:23I mean, you look at the semi-files in 2011, it's City against United, okay, it's a Manchester derby in the semi and it's Bolton against Stoke. Well, but Bolton-Stoke, I mean, obviously... But they're both top flight clubs at the time. Yeah, but there's still sides who haven't won anything because, again, well, but the magic, I mean, Palace winning it last time, first major trophy. Totally. And then delivering a different type of magic at the weekend. Exactly. No, but they still played their part in the magic. They did. that is the magic dust it's a bit like could we see with the FA Cup a bit like that weird run we had in the World Cup where the hosts not the hosts sorry the winners go out in the first round in the next World Cup because that was an odd phenomenon that we had for a bit in this century could we see that now Jim I mean I can't speculate on the future why not you're on the wrong show then I was about to say well we're going to get Yuri Gellerin I hope so.

5:22Yeah, I mean, that'd be interesting, wouldn't it? But there's so many variables in the cup. Would you be wary of if Arsenal won it? Would you celebrate and you go, oh, blimey, what have we done? I mean, we've gone out at the first hurdle a couple of times recently, so I'd absolutely take that. Okay, yeah, I see what you mean. I see what you mean. Well, I think magic is in the air. Well, I think there's another element to this, which is that the FA Cup magic is being eroded by decisions made elsewhere within football that affect it, right? So no replays. Like replays being taken away. Yeah. Hardly any space in the calendar for it, really, if we're being honest now.

5:57Yeah. And perhaps the idea that fans of top teams, I don't want to speak on behalf of them because I can't, and I'm sure they'll get in touch if they disagree, but I think there's definitely a feeling that the younger generation of fans of top teams maybe don't think it's as important, whereas when we were kids, it was massive. I mean, if you're listening to this or watching this and you are 18 years old, it's quite difficult to overstate that when I was 18, the FA, or maybe even earlier than that, when I was, say, 10, the FA Cup was huge. Yeah. I'm not saying it was as big as the league title, but it was, it definitely gathered the same amount of attention.

6:32It was a massive deal and it was a much bigger deal than perhaps, I mean, it's possibly because the English fans were banned, English teams were banned from Europe for such a long time. I think that is part of it. But that's part of what burnished it. It was a massive deal. Yeah. Also, it was from a time where there was not so much football on TV, right? So it had a bit more of a special status. But I do, obviously, you know, the FA Cup is never going to be scrapped. So I do wonder if it actually matters. No, but the reason I say that is because I think there is a sense that younger fans certainly are bigger clubs and perhaps younger fans don't care about it as much.

7:08So there is a suggestion they don't care about it as much. But like, does that actually matter? Does it really matter? Maybe, I mean, that would be quite something, wouldn't it? when there's talk that sort of lingers around should we scrap the League Cup? Yeah, we're going to scrap a cup competition. It's the FA Cup. But what I mean is like people do catastrophize, right? We've made that up for that South American executive. We can't scrap it. I mean, like a lot of historical stuff in this country, we should probably sell it to the Qataris, shouldn't we? Yeah, why not? Or maybe the Saudis. It's already the Emirates FA Cup.

7:35What about this then for a different dimension, a different angle to it? So although if you look at, say, I mean, I'm going to use Portsmouth again because it's actually quite personal. We do like hearing about it. Portsmouth play Arsenal. and I understand it's Arsenal come to the town and it's a big sellout and the crowd are loud and all the rest of it and Portsmouth fans are up for it. Generally speaking, if you just look at the statistics in terms of percentage of capacity filled, Portsmouth is the highest in the championship anyway, so you'd expect that. But the worrying thing is, if you look at, say, Stoke, did they not play Coventry in the third round?

8:06And they're two big teams, two big clubs really. Stoke, it was basically empty for an FA Cup game. And you wonder if that's, Obviously, they're just playing another championship side and fine. But ultimately, that's a bit of a shame. Yes, it is. And you wonder whether it does actually matter because if people aren't into it as much and the attendances aren't going to be there, it then becomes less of a desirable product, etc., etc. So I think there is reason to worry about it. But you've really got to accept that, to use this phrase again, there's a lot more value in the FA Cup than there is probably price.

8:43You have to understand what it means. And for masses and masses of football fans of various ages, some of the biggest moments, the best goals, the most decisive, entertaining things that have happened in English football have been FA Cup moments. And I sometimes worry that those big moments we get in the FA Cup now, they don't stick as much. No, absolutely not. They're going to stick with things like Maccasfield beating Palace, but is a great goal going to stick in the FA Cup the way it did back in the day? Again, that's due to the volume, isn't it? Yeah, because the Premier League consumes everything and there's so much football.

9:14But this has to do with broadcasters as well because the way Sky Sports and TNT Sports go on about stuff and the packages they do and so they're showing games, Premier League games, every few days or whatever it is. Yeah. And the way they promote their own product, if you like, on their own channels, it's relentless, right? That's what they do. Well, with the BBC and ITV, yeah, okay, match of the day, of course, I mean, that's the Premier League as well. But the FA Cup comes around every now and then. And they don't have as many games to show on the FA Cup because there's not as many games. It's constantly...

9:49I mean, some goals are preserved. You know, Ronnie Radford's, was it 1972? Because it's of that era. Because it's of that era and it looks different. And I wonder, though, as time goes on, will certain moments be preserved? I think possibly. You know, you do have... There are a number of moments we could share. when Wigan won it you know Watson who scored the goal sort of late on you know what a moment that was and so on and so forth I think upsets are naturally in any situation but you don't get the upsets are you don't get upsets in the Premier League really and if you do you can sort of rationalise it a bit well you get great comebacks and all that kind of stuff the cup will always have its place I think the big thing really actually that shifted it with the FA Cup and the Premier League was the introduction of more Champions League places.

10:39European football is way more important to a lot of, well certainly owners and finishing fourth, you saw when Aston Villa finished in the Champions League places the other year, they all celebrated and cheered and rightly so, that's not a criticism but that kind of celebration it's, you didn't have that 30 years ago or whatever it was because that kind of thing wasn't there because by the nature of it doing well in the cup, if you're also in Europe or gunning for Europe, creates a fixture pile up at the worst possible time, doesn't it? So it is an unfortunate victim of that as well, I think, sometimes in terms of certainly, as you allude to, the way that perhaps football club owners treat it in terms of priority.

11:20I just think it goes back to what we were saying a wee while ago, which is that in modern football that you'll find the room for the things that are most important and the FA Cup needs to be protected for all the obvious reasons that we to go into, but it involves football authorities, and in some cases, many different separate football authorities, agreeing that the value of the FA Cup is really, really, really high, and it needs to be protected at all costs. That doesn't just mean not scrapping it. It means finding room in the calendar for it, not letting Premier League, UEFA, and FIFA overreach stop it happening, or making it an afterthought or a sideshow, as you say, Marcus.

12:02Of course, that's easier said than done. the answer to the popularity of football for years now has just been more football at whatever cost and it's not surprising that these cup competitions I mean the League Cup probably more than the FA Cup suffers because of it so we have to just be careful to protect it but as far as I'm concerned the magic of the FA Cup has always been there it ebbs and flows because of the way the results go and the way the draw goes sometimes but it's given us some of our best moments and it will do again and I think to directly answer the question as well or address the question, the magic of it is really based in a game like we saw at the weekend.

12:38Now, I know Macclesfield against Crystal Palace is an extreme example, but even if Macclesfield had lost that game 4-0, the fact that they were playing the holders at all is amazing. That's where it comes from. It's a chance for people from far, far, far down the pyramid to have a go at the big boys and get that opportunity. And that is really unique and really special. Because the reason why maybe some of the bigger wigs in football would undermine the competition is because they don't give two shiny shights about those way, way, way lower down. And that's why it's very, very important to... Protect it.

13:10Protect it, exactly. Absolutely right. Jim, you've got the next question. I do, and that is from Oz Powell on Insta. We're always hearing that X club is a big club. They can't all be, though, can they? So what is the criteria? Interesting one. Huge one. A big club. Yeah, this is when people argue about which club is the bigger club. It means different things to different people, doesn't it? Yes, it does. The biggest club in the world is your club, right? That's the most important thing. I'll say for now, the biggest football club in the world is not full of football club. I'll fall on my sword there.

13:41I always used to really hone my debating and arguing skills at Sixth Form College, arguing that Portsmouth was like a bigger club than, say, some of the Premier League teams some of my friends supported. And sometimes you'd be successful. Not very often. So here you go, right? Who's a bigger club, Southampton or Portsmouth? Jim. but one of the reasons why you would stay I'm quite sure because I think we've had this you would say that Portsmouth is big is because Portsmouth have won the top flight at Southampton they've won more trophies so there you go and so that is something that people hold dear certainly Forest fans would hold that dear you know think of the European Cups that they've won and they are a bigger club for having won those trophies as well Forest I think that trophies absolutely come into it I think that is a factor I think how many people care and are affected by it is a big thing.

14:29I think the size of your support does come into it. And also, in terms of trophies, I think what we're really talking about is what impact has the club had on the sport as a whole, right? Like, where do they sit in those history books? Yeah, and so it depends how, you know, if you want to have your kind of more basic brackets of, that's a very big club, big club, you know, sort of middling sort of club. It's when people start arguing individual clubs because Forrest have won more European Cup slash Champions Leagues and say Manchester City. But quite clearly, right now, in the current club Man City are a bigger club.

14:58They're an elite level club because all the work and all the money that's been pumped in there and so on and so forth. Or are they? There you go. And this is the essence of this deal. It is because I think, as I said, it means different things to different people and I think it possibly undermines the sport itself to say, if you get a really wealthy person to just really commit loads of money to a club and that makes them a bigger club than a club with an incredible illustrious history, that's wrong. Now, the Man City example isn't necessarily the best one because Man City had more than their fair share of moments and Man City, I think, are a big club anyway.

15:35Very history club as well. One shouldn't forget that. Big club anyway, right? And if you look at, say, the criticism that Manchester United or Liverpool fans will throw at Chelsea, right, 10 years ago and say, you've got no history, Spurs will do it as well, Arsenal fans will do it, Chelsea's response will be, well, we're making our history now. Yeah, and that's important as well. So you've got a bit of that in the mix too. To me, it's, you know, I used to spend a lot of time going to the football with some people, some friends who I played football with who were about 10 years older than me. And their idea of impactful clubs, impactful players, impactful moments in the sport, were very different to mine because they just remember a lot more than I do about that era.

16:15So a lot of people would, if you come through as a 16-year-old now and you just get into football and you love it, you might be bombarded with a load of information from broadcasters, ex-players, pundits like us saying Leeds are a massive club and you're within your rights to say, well, why? Well, if you're 10 years older than us, they're gigantic because they were massive in the 70s because the amount of impact they had, you know, they cheated out of a European cup and all the rest of it. Win the league titles, Don Revy, all this kind of stuff. It means, it's a completely amorphous mass. It's a moving feast and it will always evolve and change depending on who you're talking to, what year you're doing it and what club you're talking about.

16:55The beauty of this question is it can't be answered. As you said, that's the crux of it. You can't ever nail it down because it changes. Because it can diminish. I mean, right now, as you say, you mentioned Leeds United. Well, if Man United are still doing what they're doing right now this season, in 10 years' time, will the kids be going, I mean, I know they've got a massive stadium and, okay, a lot of people go and watch them, but what's going on here sort of thing? The status can slip. Well, indeed, is this one of these clubs that you, you know, when you hear about huge fan bases and so on and so forth and you go, yeah, but they don't win anything.

17:29They don't really inspire at all. But I can never get myself out of the, I can never get myself out of the mindset that says, whenever I have to speak on a subject or answer a question that has this element to it, I always automatically in my mind think that Liverpool and Manchester United are the biggest clubs in the country. And that's not changed. How bad United have been in the last 10 years? Fan base is really... No, it's not just that. No, it's not. But it's a fact. You can't say, it's a factor it's a factor yeah but I think the reason that that holds water is that they are two clubs that dominated in a way that no one else has and I think those historical achievements and the again the impact that they had on the sport which is often you know represented by silverware is forever you know it's indelible it's like they achieved that and that stands the test of time because they did it they were the best at the time I think that's a big big factor but at some point that will go Uruguay are not the team to beat on the international level and have not been for decades.

18:26They might not be, but I think that they are forever significant, though, for that reason. Oh, significant indeed. But I'm talking about when you argue about, you know, are Man City a bigger club than Manchester United? If current trends, you know, continue. See, I think the size of the fan base is an important factor. Yeah. Because you could have... It's definitely an important factor. Yeah, because let's say Leicester City... And a more modern one, too. Yeah, but let's take Leicester City. You know, they win the Premier League, obviously and then they won an FA Cup let's just say that they kept it going right you know and they were still you know knocking around Champions League places I don't think anybody would say they were bigger clubs and say Spurs no right no exactly because that's based on a lot of that is on fan base the history as well and so there's a lot of different factors and this is why people they get into these arguments and the weeds of it and so on and so forth but you've never done this you know yours is ancient history but it's still there but Leicester and Forrest are great examples right because I think this is a factor as well because their achievements are outsized compared to perhaps the resources they had or the expectations.

19:30What Forrest did will never be done again in terms of a couple of that size. And Leicester is a similar example, right? And I think that gives them a little bump in terms of status, again, because of the impact they had on the sport. Now, a more sort of modern factor here, right? And this isn't something I particularly like, but I think it is something that you touched on there, Marcus, to look at is the perhaps international profile now and like I hate to say it but like you can see based on like Instagram followers what sort of following and what sort of profile clubs have and like do you factor that in now?

20:02I just feel like I don't know what you mean and I think obviously clubs particularly big Premier League clubs really do throw themselves into that international appeal It's a proper battleground isn't it? It's a massive part of it yeah but to me I just feel a bit like I feel a bit like you know that I'll stick to my own views thanks very much I just go like for me I don't I can never get on board with Spurs being a bigger club than Arsenal. There's just no way. I'm not trying to cause any problems by saying that to Spurs or Arsenal fans listening, particularly Spurs fans. But to me, Arsenal are a much bigger club than Spurs.

20:35I would also say, and this is obviously part of my own biases, which we all have, even if we only support clubs that are completely separate to the conversation, we still have our own inbuilt biases and experiences. I don't care that Leicester won the Premier League and the FA Cup. To me, they'll never be a bigger club than Portsmouth. And Sarampton will never be a bigger club and Portsmouth either. Leicester not a very club and Portsmouth. I don't think so. They're just not, to me. There's no wrong answer to this. They should be offended by that. And when you say that, I'd expect them to say the opposite.

20:59Sure, and when you say that, immediately, all the stuff we're talking about, I immediately go, yeah, and you're ready for the debate. Yeah. And it doesn't matter. No. Of course it doesn't matter. And again, the reasons that you'll say and the reasons that I would potentially say is you just go round and round in circles. My impression, to put a final point on it, my impression of Southampton is that their fans aren't as passionate they don't feel their stadium as regularly despite being a bigger city and they've not won as much like if you did a straw poll of say 500 random football fans around the country and said who's got better fans Portsmouth or Southampton all of them would say Portsmouth all of them but I think and this is not just you know trying to get under the skin I honestly think I would guess most people would say Southampton are a bigger club because because they've been in the Premier League more recently because they've been in the Premier League more recently and also I think that they've got a newer and what would it be slightly bigger stadium and I think visually I think that's what again Man United will always be huge because they've got Old Trafford well for now but that's a very small slither of why Man United will always be huge no no of course but as I said they will always be considered that because of an enormous stadium and again visually when the games are there you can see the size of the place and the amount of people that are there you can do I remember years and years ago going back in the 90s before Ajax moved to the Amsterdam Arena or whatever it's called now, where they play.

22:23Johan Cruyff Arena, isn't it now? Yes, indeed, yeah. When I went for a tour, I think it was the Amsterdam Arena. But anyway, that was... It probably didn't change the Marcus Berger Arena after you went for a tour then. What a great honour for them. Well, I thought they did. That were truly a big club, they said. They did temporarily. They did temporarily, but then they found out that they had other legends. But Ajax, it was a really small stadium that they had comparatively before they played. And I remember going, I was shocked because, again, back in those days, you were used to seeing the giants of European football.

22:54And you think, you know, Madrid, Barcelona, whatever they were doing, enormous arenas, the Milan sides, and even Marseille, you know, these great arenas. And I was like, oh, are I actually not? My initial thought was, oh, I thought they were a big club. Because, again, visually, when you're younger, you're seeing that and you go, oh, that's not what I envisage quite literally. So I think that is important as well when you see the amount of people that go there en masse. It's a small factor, I grant you. But it's one of the things that I think wrangles Chelsea a lot. They want to move to a bigger place.

23:24Yeah, because they want to be seen as better. Because when you go to Stamford Bridge, it's not like going to, say, the Emirates or Old Trafford or even in the Etienne. It is smaller. There's something about that. The flip side of it, though, is that there's a lot of relatively recent history of success there as well. So that's, again, another factor. Very history club, though. If I'm being honest, we're being asked to answer this question by Oz. And shout out to Oz for the question because it's a good one. Yeah. But if I'm being totally honest, like in my mind, like I said, Liverpool may not be the biggest clubs in the country.

23:58I'd say Arsenal is just underneath them, right? That to me are the top three biggest clubs in the country. And I don't know what could happen to make me change my opinion on that. So Man City have not shifted that for you? Man City are a big club, but nowhere near that level. No way. so I mean it just goes to show it depends who you ask is what I'm saying yeah and it's funny though because even within that debate I'm dipping in and out of more rational arguments than ifrational do you know what I mean you're scrambling around that's what the beauty of the question is you can never fully answer it really and it promotes a lot of passions within and so on and so forth I mean in 20 years time you might feel differently about that if Man City continued to win at a rate or comparative rate you'd have to feel differently yeah of course never ever change your mind never change your opinion Yeah, I still think the biggest club in the country is Preston North End.

24:45Coming up after this, the biggest flops of this season and the manager you'd least want with you in a scrap.

25:01All right, welcome back. This one from the amazingly named Jimmy Jukebox on Instagram. I'm definitely going to follow him after this show. hopefully he is like an actual jukebox where you can select songs for maybe a 50p fee and insert money into him exactly who has been this season's biggest flop you can choose player club or manager I've got one for each oh good for you well done I think I've got I think I could probably do one for each I feel always a bit harsh doing this this is what I live for hating just pure hating club Portsmouth no I'll tell you what we have been a flop it's not really a flop but we all expected it you were already sort of belly side down on the floor so flop there's a few candidates but that would be naughty of me to start rattling through names just pick one I think flop so far Victor Jokeres I would put him in there see while I have not obviously I'm frustrated by elements of Jokeres' game Arsenal sit at top of the league in the Champions League he's scored seven goals which isn't amazing but isn't terrible He's also called almost exactly half the price of Alexander Isaac in the same position.

26:12Well, I was going to, because he's injured, I thought I'd let him off. Isaac's been a disaster. All right, all right, all right. Well, Isaac and Salah were the other two that I was thinking, if I'm honest. It's harsh calling Salah a flop. No, only in the light of what he did last season. Yeah, but that doesn't make him a flop, does it? So now we've discussed, my answer is Alexander Isaac. We're supposed to wind that stuff out before you come on. If you're talking about player, right, It has to be Isaac. All right. For the fee. Yep. For the drama. For the lack of pre-season through his own choice.

26:43Yeah. And for being shit and then getting injured. Yeah. The injury is not his fault, is it? The injury is not his fault. But it still happened. He did it. He did it. It was his body that did it. It still happened. Well, I mean, in terms of the impact he's had on the season again, though, right? So Florian Verts would have been another candidate, but he's shown signs of life recently. I think he's been harshly treated. Yeah. But I think he's shown a fair amount despite people hammering him. I thought he was very good against Arsenal, actually. And that kind of little bit of a, I mean, Xavi Siemens has had some attention there as well.

27:10And one who's gone under the radar a little bit, maybe Anthony Alanga. No goals, two assists, 25 appearances. Yeah. I mean, they're not all starts, obviously. Compared to Isak, he just blows all these out of the water. Yeah. I mean, as much as it's unhelpful for this show and the runtime, the answer on player is definitively Alexander Isak. Say whatever else you want. Sure. But I think Jokerez, though, because of the amount of goals he scored and he came in and blah, blah, blah, blah, I think he's not met expectations but that's different no so I think it's a bit harsh on club I mean there's there's a few answers I they're arresting the slump now I think if we'd have been asked this question say a couple of months ago you could have said Liverpool considering that they were the champions their defence of the title has effectively been over after a few months into the season I think that's probably still is a flop on that on those terms especially given not just the amount of money they spent because you know that's you know you only should pay so much attention to that I think but the the strengthening they did we all thought every player they've signed there improves them in some way and they've not managed to make that click because you've got to remember what a flop is like quite literally it's falling it's not you've not done it because if people say Spurs have been a flop this season it's kind of like not relative to expectations exactly you can say Thomas Frank has though absolutely well we haven't got manager yet you know Even if you were to say like Forrest, Forrest possibly.

28:38Forrest and mine, I think. Forrest would be one. And then again, as I say, West Ham, but the decline in West Ham. See, Wolves, you could argue, but the decline was there. Forrest were in the Europa League, right? Yeah. I know they got in there in weird circumstances, but they were flying last season. And this is absurd. I think Forrest are probably the answer. Because again, with Wolves and West Ham, even though they're not newly promoted sides, that's the point is that the decline was there. and this has been a... And West Ham's ownership makes this... Well, it's almost been by design. Not inevitable, but they're so up against it.

29:10It's almost been by design with West Ham and Wolves. I think there's an argument to make that in terms of the team section of this question, like, flop is a really hard thing to define because even like a Wolves, we kind of knew they'd be bad. We didn't know they'd be this bad. Exactly, yeah. West Ham, kind of the same. Forrest, the same. No, Forrest are the ones though, I think, that bearing in mind this season, when they started this season, Sure, but the wheels were in motion before that, were they not? I don't think they were. It was starting to unravel before that. No, I disagree with you, because I think they just missed out on Champions League football, that home game against Chelsea with their edge.

29:48The genesis of the Forest flop is Maranakis on the pitch with Nuno. It was starting to unravel way before the end of the season. No, because he was getting a bit pissed off because he wanted to make sure they got Champions League. Defending him. Isn't it? Oh, he's good to you as well, isn't he? Yeah, right, okay. He's got a gun to his bollocks under the table. It's going to be like inglorious bastards any minute. I think overall, if you had to pick a club in the Premier League, you'd probably pick Forrest, you're right. But I think there's another thing you could probably chuck out there and that might be Manchester United.

30:21Again. Hmm. Because despite the reason that I make a hard noise... No, I disagree with you because of the league position. Yeah. Despite the chaos that's happened there recently, they are significantly better than they were last season though. But that's the point. You can't say, oh, he's a flop, but he's improved. Yeah. I'll tell you what you can say. Unless he's flopped onto a trampoline. They should not be doing Jimmy Savile banners in the crowd. No. They can think of another way of being annoyed with Jim Ratcliffe and doing Jimmy Savile stuff. That does suggest some sort of flop has occurred, doesn't it?

30:53If you have to make the point that they shouldn't be doing Jimmy Savile banners in the crowd. It's quite low. It's quite a low ebb, yeah. It's quite a low ebb. Maybe not because of the league position. and they were improved from what we saw last season. I think the two candidates for it. But they've gone for another manager. I would say Forrest and then a dishonourable match for Liverpool. Okay, what about manager? Frank? No. It's Nuno. Yeah, I think... It's Nuno! Again, though, the... Frank's reputation has gone from there to, like, there. No, because he's... Nuno's been shit before. Nuno has been shit before and he's not really a firefighting manager, is he?

31:25But he was, that's what he brought into Forrest and he saved them. Yeah, but, I mean, he... Fair enough. fair enough but I think he's more at his best he's more of a project manager so expecting him to come into a situation at West Ham was never likely to be brilliant but it's been diabolical it has been diabolical worse than Potter also it is worse than Potter and he's not helped himself at all because you hear all these stories coming out about how he's not you know he's not communicating very clearly with the players a lot of them don't know where they stand like the training is confusing the tactics are confusing he's hugging the Nottingham Forest players after the game where they've just gone seven points clear of his team but again though I mean I think the conditions memories are made of this the conditions at West Ham are so difficult for any manager though but he's got a factor in him but the reason why he has been crap I'm not saying he's not he starts the season with a side who are in the Europa League and you think there's a chance that they could go deep in there what are they going to do okay fine Luke might argue that there was a few little brush strokes written on the wall before.

32:35I wouldn't say that. That sounds weird. Okay, fine. But you understand the point I'm saying. Yeah, I do. And he finds himself out the door there, leaves in very strange circumstances. Okay, fine. Maybe not his fault or whatever. And then he goes to West Ham, walks into that job straight away, and everyone thought, oh, he'll sort them out. His stock was high. now if he got sacked by West Ham before the end of the season do you think he would get another Premier League job do you see what I mean maybe so you're talking about the flop Jim think about the flop are we forgetting flop it out Jim and Poster Coglu's reign at Nottingham Forest I mean not because he was shite last season can I interject despite the trophy but he did win a trophy yeah can I interject because uncharacteristically I've let you guys talk for a bit and I feel uncomfortable about it yes No one is arguing that Nuno hasn't been a flop.

33:29The situation that you're absolutely right to settle on is actually a lot of the chat around when Nuno gets the job was they'll be fine. Yeah. Same with Dyshott Forest, actually. Yeah. Right? That hasn't proven to be the case with West Ham. They're in serious danger relegation. Absolutely, they've been a flop. For me, though, allow me to articulate why I think Thomas Frank's been a bigger flop. Right. Because Thomas Frank is coming from a much higher position. in terms of his reputation. The news is greeted overwhelmingly positively, right? And people are, this is just what Spurs need kind of thing.

34:06But a lot of neutrals were saying that. Sure, but the wider milieu was that. The Spurs fans were saying, is he a bit too pragmatic for us? But let me finish. I cannot tell you how bad it's been. Spurs fans can, right? And they are regularly telling you how bad it's been. This is not just, it's been underwhelming. A lot of Spurs fans, the more vocal element, are talking about how this is catastrophically bad. The worst football they've seen Spurs play for years and years and years. Well, they've attempted 11 through balls this season. It's a laughing stock. It's a laughing stock. I think that's a much bigger flop because the expectation was different.

34:50Although the expectation was skewed, wasn't it? because obviously a lot of people, myself included, thought Frank, in theory, was a good fit. And then Spurs are a Champions League club this season. So you think they've got out of jail a little bit by winning the Europa League. But actually, clearly a lot of the structural problems that were there, including their horrendous injury record, are taking a toll. But yeah, I think maybe there was a false expectation on Spurs because they got back into the Champions League. But it's a madhouse. You're saying that Man United are the unmanageable club.

35:21Spurs are almost like that. West Ham as well, probably. Probably. But with Frank, it was a big step up for him. Was it? Oh, yeah. Of course it was. I mean, he's in that bracket that say, or he was in that bracket that Herzler, Iriola, Howe was as well, where everyone's like, great, this is a stepping stone for them. Let's see what they can do next. We talked about Iriola last week with Dave Cartlidge and he was saying that Iriola will love the Spurs job because it means it gets them closer to going to Real Madrid, right? What can he do next? Frank's reputation has been totally torpedoed in like four months.

35:56Yeah. Totally. It's actually enhanced Brentford's reputation. If you look at the structure there and how well Keith Andrews has slotted into it. He's basically several points and several places below his own set pieces, coach, in the league. They get more demeaning than that. That is a compelling argument. But Nuno is worse than Graham Potter at West Ham. Yeah. Which would be my rebuttal. Astonishing one. Yeah, that is. I think again though the answer's Graham Potter Nuno is yeah Nuno is under the kind of charge of that octogenarian grok gremlin you know who can work in those conditions I think I'm willing to the last surviving dildo brother yeah I think I think I'm willing to give it to Luke we don't have to do for this the answer people have their own opinions they have their own views they'll put them in the comments okay fair enough fair enough making yourself chair all of a sudden yeah I know I'll give it to Luke yeah but I know you're going to abstain Jim yeah Oh, yeah.

36:51Love that. No, I think it's Frank. I think it's Frank. If we're going to fulfill the entire stereotype, I think you're both cunts. There we go. Right, what's next? We've got one here from Johnny on Blue Sky, who says, Out of Newcastle, Chelsea, Arsenal and Manchester City, who's the biggest club? No, who would benefit the most? Who would benefit the most from winning the Carabao Cup? Of course, the first legs of the semifinals start tonight. Manchester City against Newcastle United. Shall we do like a rapid fire answer on this one? No, no, let's take a long time. Do mine in order. Go on then, go on then.

37:24Newcastle, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City. From top to bottom? I think that might be mine. Mine would be Arsenal top. Yeah, Arsenal or Newcastle, I think. I think Newcastle winning the Carabao last season was absolutely massive for them. To retain it and to keep the trophy cabinet filling up I think would be, Arsenal badly need a trophy, but I think Newcastle edge it for that reason. I think, yeah, if Arsenal won the Carabao Cup, I think people go, yeah, but it's a... Yeah, exactly. It's probably a league in Champions League. Rightly or wrongly, I think some people would do that. I just don't think it matches their ambitions now they've got that monkey off their back.

37:58They should be going gun for leather. Newcastle. Yeah, Newcastle. You need to get that fourth place because it's there. Yeah. Arsenal, whether we like it or not, and I suspect Jim probably doesn't like it because he probably doesn't think it's part of the whole picture, which is absolutely fair enough. Arteta, the thing that's dogged Arteta is a lack of trophy. you know and I think what ironically given that people regularly criticise Arteta for wanting to try and emulate what Guardiola's done doing it almost in the same way what City have been really good at in the past is using it as a launch pad and if Arteta can almost burnish their confidence even further by saying now we're a team who wins trophies that to me is a massive step remember this feeling yeah and Chelsea and City I mean it's by the by if Chelsea get a trophy with Liam Rossini this quickly that's massive they won the Champions League with Di Matteo and they're the world champions it's very with a manager they hate yes the narratives of recent football suggest that Chelsea will go on to win this competition they're just so efficient at that to me the answer is Arsenal to me but also I mean Pep's last season as well is a factor but I think well if it proves to be yeah I think now he's beaten extra 10 while he's done everything he can do taking them as far as he can I think you're right so yeah my order would be Arsenal, Newcastle and then probably Chelsea, Man City Chelsea Man City it's by the by as disrespectful as that sounds I think that's just how it is no it's not disrespectful you're saying well particularly with Man City that they've won so much no but how disrespectful it is to an amazing competition with a huge amount of prize money is what I'm saying oh yes and a great sponsor absolutely yeah Stephen has been in touch on Instagram you always talk about the hardest Premier League manager but who would be worst in a brawl which is this is nice because we essentially just get to do hardest manager again don't we we always talk about that for ages have we So the biggest wet blanket, because he said it in a brawl.

39:50So what the situation is, if you get yourself into a physical scenario, which I don't recommend you do, there's always better ways than solving it with violence. Running away. Unless they're Nazis, they're a bit of shit out of them. But the person you'd least want... What? It's not a joke. I was always brought up like that. Violence is never the answer. Yeah. If they're Nazis, fucking smash them up. Yeah, I know. I just remember that... Well, I don't remember. I'm aware of the Winston Churchill broadcast when he said that. I'm not quite that old. But who do you least want next to you from the manager class of the Premier League this season in a fight scenario?

40:24Yeah, that's a good question. I'm probably going to go with, I think, Eddie Howe, I think. Possibly Oliver Glasner. Eddie Howe might have Jason Tindall with him, though, in which case you're probably fine. You're branching out there, Jim. You're widening it out. You can't bring an assistant manager with you. Well, I mean, wrestlers often had a little fella come down with them, didn't they? Or a little manager that would help them cheat. Jimmy Mouth with a sow. Exactly. Slick. Yeah, those types. Mr. Fuji. Mr. Fuji was great. Mr. Fuji. Many, ready or not, here he comes. You once said, and this dates this, how long we've been talking about hardest managers.

41:01You once said Sir Alex Ferguson, because he's got his attack dog, Mike Phelan with him. Yeah, Mike more than a Phelan. But those days are long gone. Well, those specific days are. I'm trying to respect the question. I think, go on. David Moyes is the oldest at 62 and that surely starts to count again. Old man hard. Moyes you want with you. Yeah. Jim! Moyes being the most useless in a fight. In comparison to the younger men around him who are all, in most cases, ex-athletes, I think you're forgetting. That is the most foolish thing you've ever said on this podcast. I don't think that's true. Well, I don't agree with that.

41:37To suggest that a number of Premier League managers could get the better of Moyes in a fight. There's absolutely no way. He's 62 years old. So what? He'll knock out Thomas Frank in 10 seconds. Jim, he'll knock out Thomas Frank in 10 seconds. Yeah. No, I'm not having that. You're entitled to your answer. You're entitled to his answer, Marcus. Oh, okay. Who's yours? So I was trying to think, because I quite like your answer of Eddie Howe, because it's not necessarily to do with the physicality of it. Are they going to be loyal to you? Are they going to... Which is why it's good there's no Italian man in the Premier League.

42:11Very good. One minute they're on your side next to me. Hang on. What are we doing? Could it be Maresca? Yeah, that's true. He'd probably eye gouge you as well while he's at it. Harking back to Churchill again here. What about Liam Rossini then? He looks a little bit, he's a little bit of a poindexter, isn't he? He's slender, but he's got youth on his side, isn't he? Yeah, I think you're equating old people with not being able to fight and young people who've been able to fight. That's wrong. I think there's something fundamentally wrong with that. But I'm sort of, you know, you're a big proponent of the old man hardens.

42:41But the question is about who would be the worst in a brawl, right? So the idea is like if Liam Rossini has youth on his side in comparison with other managers. Yeah, but who's gutsy? Moyes. Moyes has seen it all. I think Oliver Glasner... Moyes is not phased by any of this stuff. Oliver Glasner right now might be handy because you could punch him full in the face and he wouldn't even notice. He's just in a daze. He wouldn't even register. With those limbs, he could be a bit Dalsim. You know, he could stretch him out and so on. He's got a good reach. Jim, it is a bit outrageous that you've basically chosen the principle of death made flesh as your ferryman himself.

43:16I can't believe you said Moyes there. I haven't actually settled on Moyes as my answer. He just touched you with a finger. Fuck off. With a dead finger. And you die. He touched a finger and he turned to dust. You should have abstained again. No, I haven't abstained on anything. This is what I'm saying. I'm doing the rounds of the question, exploring the manager in the Premier League to try and bring their different elements forward. And I think it's a tough one. don't think Arteta would be up to much no he wouldn't he wouldn't be great he would be straight although the thing is if you can get in his head and annoy him he might be provoked into doing something mental so I think I think the physicality I don't think there's anyone particularly obviously maybe weak but that's why I'm tapping into the who's going to crumble who's going to Eddie Howe crumbles for me Eddie Howe I think would be a bit like yeah to be honest with you Luke we've only just met I'm not really into this and off he would go so therefore he would be one of the his old windmill macaques right into his face now an unknown quantity Pep Guardiola Nola could overanalyse it, could overthink it.

44:11I think he would. He could, Jim, he could have a go at you saying you're not attacking enough. I think he looks physically weak. I think, but I think he might just go into a corner and wait for it to all end. Agree. No, I think he'd be shouting at you for not doing enough while you're getting a pasting and you go, can you please help me? Critiquing your technique. Exactly. Other slots do nice as well. No, I think slots got, there's a sternness there where you would make it. There's a line. Blocky. he's blocky what about Fabian Herzler can I imagine him sort of PE teacher I mean is it him Lebris Frank all PE teachers I reckon Lebris he's used to breaking up fights not having them yeah I reckon a bit Sean Dyche no you would want him Dyche is going to be perfect isn't he he's going to either knock them out or break it up like a bouncer also Reg Lebris French yeah so he's he's running nah he don't want him with you people can complain about that but I've said this before and I've said it again you can't mistreat French or Italian people.

45:09You can't. Especially when you've got a World War II vibe going on in your head. You can't be disrespectful to French or Italian people. Right, okay. Simple as that. And I think if we want to end the show on that, we can. Yeah. Nuno, he would just be sitting in the corner waiting for over. He's a defeated man these days. He's very tall, though, Nuno. He'd be summoning a spell and you're like, Nuno, come on, do something. Summoning a spell. He's like wizard-like, isn't he? Yeah, he is a bit, yeah. Yeah, a little bit. Oh, dear. I hope that answers the question. Yeah, we haven't really settled on anyone have we?

45:34I don't know if it does but again you are welcome to ask us anything on this pod as we've displayed many many times before. Thank you very much for listening to The Football Ramble part of the ACAST Creator Network please do send us your responses opinions and questions for next week's mailbag and become a friend of the Ramble to join the conversation on our Discord. Lovely old job we'll see you tomorrow.

45:59The Football Ramble is a stack production and part of the ACAST Creator Network.