Mailbag: What’s the perfect ending to a football match?

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2:43You need to relax.

2:43Luke Moore: I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood? I think it's laminate. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Football Ramble Mailbag. World-class players, great endings to games, and reliving moments are the orders of the day. It's Tuesday, 28th of April. I'm Marcus Speller. And I'm Luke Moore.

3:21Luke Moore: Hello, everybody. Lovely to have you with us for the Mailbag. Hello, everybody. Come up. Hello, everybody. Come around. You're feeling good? You're starting to sound a bit like Steptoe, old man Steptoe. Yeah, Steptoe and some. Yeah. Remember it? I don't remember it. I'm aware of it. Right, okay. It would have been released before you and I were born, perhaps. Yeah, but it's repeated loads on BBC Two. Yes, it is repeated loads. Nice to hear Steptoes. It had a weird thing where it started out being black and white. Yes. And then as it moved through, it became a colour sitcom. And now you can watch it 3D.

3:55Luke Moore: You dirty old man. That's what I used to say. Still stands up. Right, message us on XBlueSky or Instagram at Football Ramble to get involved in this show. Comment on YouTube as well. Email us at footballramble.com. Of course, friends at the Ramble get priority. Patreon.com forward slash football ramble. Or sign up on YouTube. plenty of ways to get involved a lot of instructions for people isn't it people should also come to our World Cup watch along tickets are available on all our social media accounts go and get involved where you still can tickets are going fast indeed they are now let's start the mailbag proper from John on Instagram is the end of York City versus Rochdale the greatest ending to a football match and besides the obvious what are the necessary ingredients for the ultimate ending lots of listeners were asking about Rochdale failing to get promoted on 106 points and asking about should there be another automatic promotion spot, by the way, which we did talk about a little bit on yesterday's ramble.

4:49Luke Moore: But staying with the question from John, is it the greatest ending to a football match that you've seen? And what are the necessary ingredients for an ultimate ending? Well, it sits in the mind because it's so recent, doesn't it? It was an amazing drama. I don't think anyone could argue that. There's something very poetic about the fact that, you know, the celebration of the first team to score then gives time for the second team to score and get the result they want. So it's almost like Shakespearean in how powerful it was. But for me, you know, I mean, it depends which part of the question you want me to answer first.

5:24But I think the answer to what needs to happen towards the end of a game to make it the ultimate ending is fairly obvious. I mean, you want just any kind of drama, you know. There's different types, aren't there? whether it's a goal or a sending off or a big incident or a KMI as the referees call it but I mean I would say the one that sticks in my mind is the greatest ending if we're talking about domestic football in this country it's got to be Watford

5:53Luke Moore: Leicester that was what I heard right okay so I'll just explain to people if they don't remember it was a playoff semi-final between Watford and Leicester and it was poised they were drawing on aggregate I think they were drawing two on aggregate it was the second leg in the second leg for a chance to go through to the player final at Wembley to get into the Premier League and Anthony Knockart takes the boy into the penalty area down the right hand channel he is quote unquote for those watching fouled adjudged to have been fouled by the referee and the penalty is awarded it's an outrageous dive let's make it absolutely clear it is an outrageous dive but the referee's bought it hook, line and sink up what if the fans aren't happy for obvious reasons?

6:33nor are the players the players can't actually believe what's happened Knockout himself steps up to take the penalty don't worry lads I'll take care of this and it's saved by Manuel Amunia this is about this is two minutes after the added time has expired by the way this is about the 97th ish minute and there's four minutes added so you're headed into

6:51Luke Moore: extra time you would have been yeah and then Amunia saves double save in fact gets the ball pumps it long the ball somehow works its way down the right hand channel for Watford gets over to the penalty it's half cleared Troy Dini comes in scores smashes it into the roof it's an amazing turnaround I mean what it is is the reason that that is to me the ultimate ending is because that is drama on drama on drama so basically a penalty is awarded that shouldn't have been awarded that's dramatic it's saved that's even more dramatic then someone at the other team scores which is another layer of it you like marzipan right imagine three layers of marzipan on delicious cake oh yeah you're in heaven keep going you can't believe that's all I've got you can't believe your luck right that to me is the ultimate but I think ultimately we want we want just events like incidents to happen obviously Watford lost the platform of Crystal Palace didn't they yeah so that was yeah that was a bit of a shame their drama yeah they basically used up all their positive drama but what do you think what do you want in terms of drama towards the end of a game well the reason why I thought about that one you've mapped it out there it's the swing You know I like a good swing.

8:06Luke Moore: And I think that's it. I think, of course, you can have drama with a late winner or even in the recent African Cup of Nations final, the drama of that penalty and all going off and the Senegal going off the pitch and all that malarque. And then the penalty is tamely saved. Again, that wasn't the end. I mean, that was the end of the 90 minutes. And then, of course, you do have extra time. so it's not it's not I'm using a little bit of creative license there but I think it is that swing it's kind of one team has the advantage and then it goes the other way and then it goes it's that whereas if a team just scores a last minute win it of course that can be dramatic What about United Bayern Munich in Barcelona and that was the other one I heard Yeah Because they're desperate for extra time really Yeah So that one again it is the I think it's the layers of it as you say you can have a great comeback but sometimes you can see that the comeback's on.

9:03Luke Moore: I mean, if you take, say, Spurs away to Ajax in the Champions League. That was brilliant. There's a number of these, by the way, we could choose. Oh, the first leg there. The Lucas Moura hat trick in Amsterdam. Yeah, exactly. Now, again, I understand that people say, but what about that one? You don't want to get too listy. You want to try and nail this down. That was obviously very, very dramatic because of the importance of it, and it was a comeback. But the reason why I would have the other two over, say, that as an example is again because of the unpredictable nature of it. That Leicester-Watford one, they get the penalty.

9:35Luke Moore: As you say, oh, well, that's that. Oh, it's saved. Oh, my goodness, they're still in it. Oh, my goodness, they're out. How it all changed so quickly. And I think that's... There's justice to it as well because it was a dive. Yeah, indeed. But I think as well, with Manchester United by Munich won that night in Barcelona, Bayern would have thought they'd won it. The fans, the way they were celebrating and cheering and blah-de-blah-de-blah and apparently Teddy Sheringham was looking around. He was like, you bloody get me on that pitch. I'll sort this out. whether that's true or not he certainly would have felt it I'm sure they equalise and Sheringham said didn't he years later or Solskjaer did Solskjaer did as I like to say in a Sean Connery type way and Sheringham they were like oh my goodness brilliant we get another half an hour of this this is oh my god isn't that wonderful and then of course down the other end boom and so Bayern go from you've won it to ah that is so annoying we've now got to go again to ah we've lost it yeah there's an iconic such a short space of time there's an iconic scene of Sammy Koufer just punching the ground doesn't really can't really process it because it's so it's like it's not that here's what you could have won it's just been ripped away from your toe I mean I currently I don't normally like to talk about my body on the show as you know which is a shame actually I think we've ring-frenced that for Patreon subscribers up until now I think maybe we should kind of extend that out to the more yeah yeah and I thought it was spam but no OnlyFans are really putting a lot of pressure on me but I've got goosebumps just thinking about that Champions League final.

10:58Luke Moore: That line when Tilsley, you know, Man United, surely they always score. And they do score. And Shulshire has won it! Again, it's the quick nature. It's how suddenly everything's changed. And I think that layer, that layered ending, if you like, that you spoke of with the Watford-Leicester thing, I think that's probably how you would define the ultimate ending. I mean, the ultimate ending and it's a signal if you're on the other end of it you don't want to be ever on the other end of these because it gets shown time and time again and you're like well it's all very well for the neutral and those fans but we were so I think that's probably there's some other honourable mentions aren't there yeah well there's loads of honourable mentions I mean Man City winning the title against KBR yeah that's good I think it's from despair to victory is another kind of way well the Mickey Thomas 1989 Arsenal as well yeah I mean two goals I think the context is crucial because again Again, if that happens in a normal league game, it's an amazing finish.

11:59The last World Cup final was good.

12:00Luke Moore: Yeah, it was. Mbappe scores a penalty, what, in two minutes from the end of extra time? And Emi Martinez needs to make a great save. Yeah. But then you've got penalties. Yeah, it's... I mean, you remember in the Euros as well when Croatia played Turkey. Croatia scored in the 119th minute, do they? And in Turkey, they think they've won it in the other end and then score and then win the penalties. Let's wrap up this conversation by saying... I said we don't want to be too listed. Here I go. In 2017, Portsmouth were top of the league for 32 minutes at the end of the season and got promoted. Yeah.

12:28That's the only 32 minutes they were top of the league for the entire season. Now that is how you leave it late. That's how you do it.

12:34Luke Moore: Absolutely. What about this question? Anyway, thanks to John for that. Yeah, good one. Gave me some goosebumps, John. There you go. And you can't always say that about Marcus. If I can give Marcus goosebumps twice a week, I'll feel like I'm doing pretty well. Yeah. It's a pretty good effort. You average probably up one and a half. I think so, yeah. Exactly. From Andrew, who's also on Instagram, despite us saying we prioritise our Patreon subscribers, it's another Instagram contribution. contribution. Well, maybe they've dropped the ball. I think he's also a Patreon subscriber. We'll just leave it at that.

12:59He says, Hi guys, how do you define the phrase world class when talking about a player? For me, it is a benchmark independent of time which doesn't alter. Well, you sound fun, Andrew. That's all right.

13:13Luke Moore: He must have a bit of joy in his life. This will be a benchmark independent of time that will not alter. Meaning you may have years where no player is world class or hundreds of players are. some modern pundits use it comparatively to mean you're a top three in your position for that era which I don't like what's your definition based on my definition there seems to be fewer and fewer world class players each year nowadays as systems have replaced mavericks it's a very aggressive way of asking the question Andrew if you use that tone yeah yeah but I think I just wanted to get across the anger he clearly felt true it's all in caps yeah but to edit out all the swear words we did exactly and there's a photo attached to the email of him just doing that a big middle finger world class players Marcus how do you like to define them I've got a very clear idea in my mind but I'd like to hear what you've got to say I know you do because you've mentioned this before so if I may put it back to you I want to hear your definition I think it's top three players in that position I think it has to be you have to judge it by the current area they're playing in I think it is a nonsense to say in my estimation at the moment there are no world class left backs because it doesn't make any sense ultimately if you are the best left back in the world Andrew on Instagram doesn't decide that you're not world class you know Paolo Maldini though yeah you are by definition world class exactly and it also becomes very very difficult in fact I would argue it's impossible to compare players across the eras there was a video doing the rounds not that long ago on Instagram I think which was a bit of footage of Alfredo Di Stefano the great Alfredo Di Stefano and he was shit but people were saying that yeah no touch people were saying that his step overs are really sly and he'd go past I love that I absolutely love it he's wearing lead boots and he's playing with a bowling ball yeah right yeah what do you expect absolutely no conversation in his life about nutrition or anything like that yeah he's drunk he's had no sleep he's not even got an Ani Das a door swim what yeah but people were saying that I know and I suspect it was probably younger people and they're comparing it to the morning game when do we listen to them You can't compare across eras.

15:20Of course.

15:21Luke Moore: It's futile, you might say. It's like, oh, well, you can't, George Best can't be brilliant because you never saw him do a fucking trick. Yeah. Because he was all about pace and dropping the shoulder and balance and ingenuity and reading the game and technique in a different way. Yes. I think, get back onto topic though, before I hand over to you. If you are in the top three players in your position, you are a world-class player. It's as simple as that. I mean, it is as simple as that. There's no other way of saying it. Yeah, I think you have to, I think if, some people would say you have to have a consistency and a longevity maybe not longevity that might be too strong certainly a consistency so for example if a player breaks onto the scene say he's 18 and is doing really really well Marv Lewis Skelly well he did break on the scene doing really well to start with alright fine I remember Graeme Sooners being asked about world class players and he was asked and this was probably maybe two or three years ago and he was asked about Bellingham and he said he will be.

16:18Right.

16:19Luke Moore: And some people are like is he not already? And he's like no no you've got to have that consistency and prove it that you can do it. Do you remember Robbie Savage saying it? What did he? Oh yeah. But he did that. He said oh I was world class for that game or whatever and I was like what are you fucking talking about? Yeah but he was saying that yeah because. I kept Zola in my pocket for a game or something. If Zola was world class then I was world class as well. Yeah. Yeah I mean. I think you've wasted all of our time bringing that up. No but it feeds into your longevity point. Right. Because it's like saying, oh, well, you did an amazing turn in one game, so you were world-class for that 10 seconds.

16:51True.

16:52Luke Moore: Yeah, I mean, as David Bowie once sung, we can be world-class just for one game. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, okay, fine. It's not how I remember it, but I get the point. Not a bad attempt. So there is a little bit of nuance in here, so we are saying it has to be for a long, a certain period. I mean, Andrew's mentioned the word era in his message. Well, I'm still thinking Harry Kane's a one-season wonder. Well, exactly. That's the other thing. So clearly, again, would someone like, I don't know, Roque Santa Cruz or somebody, he has a really good season, you're tempted to say, well, hang on, let's just see where it goes.

17:28Luke Moore: And you think, well, actually, no, I don't think anybody would have called him world class. He's a good player. It's also a complete subjective thing as well. Ultimately, yes. Well, it is to an extent because if you are in the runnings for, say, the Ballon d 'Or, for example, then everyone has agreed that this player is, of these players are the best in their positions or they're the best players. Let's do this in a, yeah, no, I get that. Let's do this in an interesting way though. This is a little bit unfair on you, but I think it'll be, it'll make for a good, a good part of the show. How is it unfair on me?

17:54Well, England played Serbia and beat them 5-0 on a brilliant performance on the Tukul a few months ago, right? Yes. And it was probably the best performance for being an under Tukul, right? If I go through, and I just want an instinctive answer from you, just because it'll be, it'll be an interesting revelation to people listening of where you are with it. So if I list those players from back to front.

18:10Luke Moore: You're going to mention the Serbian subs if Mitrovic was on the bench. I'm not going to do Serbia. Mitrovic did come on. World class. World class. But I'll do the England players. You tell me instinctively if you think they're world class or not because it will be quite revealing. Okay, so Jordan Pickford. No. Tino Livramento. No. Mark Gaye. No. Esri Konza. No. Rhys James. Yes. Elliot Anderson. No. Declan Rice. Yes. Anthony Gordon. No. Morgan Rodgers? No. Nonny Maduweke? No. Harry Kane? Never. Yes, Harry Kane. No, obviously yes. So basically you've got essentially three world-class players in there, Kane, Rice and James.

18:50It's quite interesting, isn't it?

18:51Luke Moore: I think Gay is... So there you go. So Gay would have the potential. Now people say, oh, it's only just because he's gone to Man City. Well, that is actually kind of a part of it. Because if you are being picked by one of the best clubs in the land and on the continent, in the continent rather, then they think, oh well you can play if you play consistently at a certain level and also I think you can say nowadays about winning trophies I think back in the day you would have players where financially it was a much more even playing field and so you could have a world class player playing maybe not for the big sides you know again maybe you're going back quite a long time now but I think if you are a player who has the potential to be world class just the way it's gone globalization call it what you bloody want you will be hoovered up by one of the clubs that's correct but what we've learned I think probably from that little experiment there though would you agree with that?

19:47I do agree broadly

19:48Luke Moore: was there any player in there? I would say there are players in there who have got potential to be world class I think Elliot Anderson one of them I think Gaye you're right to say that and by the way I should be absolutely clear just because I don't think say Jordan Pickford is a world class keeper doesn't mean to say I don't think he's a very good goalkeeper exactly and that's the point I was going to make actually what that experiment there has kind of illustrated I think to at least to an extent is that England will be among the favourites to win the World Cup this year. They might not do it.

20:14They probably won't do it. No, they are. They are. According to FIFA, they are. And they could line up with that team. They probably won't line up with that team. There'll probably be a couple of changes here and there. There'll be one or two players who come and maybe you would say a World Cup, perhaps like an in-form Bellingham or an in-form Foden. You know, that's a different conversation. Yeah, fine. But ultimately, it doesn't actually matter because football's a team game. It'll be the best team that wins the trophy. And if you've got a sprinkling of World Cup players in there, that's great.

20:40But it's rare you're going to have 11 world-class players, partly for the reasons you said. But also, back in the day, if people talked about Brazil 1970, maybe they'd say all those players were world-class. But that just doesn't really happen anymore.

20:51Luke Moore: Well, no, but you don't have to go that far back. You would think of the great Spain sides. Yeah. You think Ike Casillas, you probably have it. I don't want to go through them all, but you know, Xavi, Iniesta, David Villa, you know, these players, Carlos Pio, Sergio Ramos and so on. Ramos is a funny one. So the team that beats Italy 4-0 in the Euro 2012 final. I mean, that was the pinnacle of it. I understand people might say, no, surely it was the World Cup. In terms of the style of football they played and how good they were, you have to say winning a final 4-0 and the way that they played in that tournament.

21:23I would say probably every single one of those Spain players, with the possible exception of Arba Lowa, are world-class players.

21:31Luke Moore: Yeah, and it was such a special team. Yeah. And you saw what they won. thinking about it that's actually unbelievable so that's so again you don't have to go that far he's not playing them in the summer yeah we can still play them anyway but yeah interesting question though very interesting question disagree with you John don't like your tone but good question nonetheless yeah yeah yeah and his name was Andrew so there we are John's the first one wasn't it how disrespectful have I been to him there sorry Andrew yeah sorry about that oh dear me right coming up after this can you change teams

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23:32Looking for soccer analysis more knowing than a Carlo Ancelotti eyebrow raise? With the World Cup around the corner, join me, Max Rushton, and the Guardian's expert soccer journalist on Football Weekly for all the latest soccer action and news throughout the week. We'll cover more ground than Drew Bellingham in a Champions League final with conversations sharper than an Arsenal set-piece. For fine margins, fun debates and full-blooded tackles, Football Weekly. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and watch the full episodes on YouTube.

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25:03Luke Moore: welcome back everybody right we've got Joe on Instagram who says I've been a boyhood Chelsea fan since I was younger brackets grew up in Essex but moved to Leeds for the last five years since the new owners of Chelsea I felt such a disconnect I've started attending lower league games and enjoyed watching Huddersfield Town since January brackets following Luke's New Year's resolution lower league games Huddersfield Town was that my New Year's resolution was it yeah maybe well going to see your local side I think you said yeah to be fair I do do that yeah Joe goes on when do I officially start calling myself a Huddersfield town fan over a Chelsea fan and what makes me more of a fan of one club than the other well first of all growing up in Essex doesn't mean you're automatically a Chelsea fan and I don't know that you've implied that in your email because Essex isn't known as being a hotbed for Chelsea fans unless you're that kind of awful particular part of Essex where you're just a bit nouveau riche and I don't want to be unkind about you, Joe.

26:01I like to think you're not that. Essex, to me, is West Ham. Is Arsenal a lot. Even Spurs. A lot of Spurs fans as well, yeah. So, anyway, Leighton Orient. The great Leighton Orient as well. Mighty O's, yeah. Yeah. Look, my answer to this question, this is something that comes up a fair amount, actually. I get asked this a fair amount. And it came up for me, personally, when I moved to London and started watching a lot of different teams that weren't the team I support, just through logistical reasons, really. Now, I do still go down and watch Portsmouth here and there. I've been this season, made the trip.

26:34I do traditionally get to some London-based away games as well. And Portsmouth are unequivocally my team. The reason I can get... I mean, we've talked about this, I think, but...

26:46Luke Moore: There's variations of this question, but I think it's something that... We can get swept away with a team in a season, say when... So say, for example, like you moved up to the middle of nowhere in Scotland, right? So you went to, and you end up going to watch Dunbarton, right? Beautiful place to go and watch football, great stadium, small club, very picturesque, romantic, amazing, all the rest of it. If you went to go and watch them every week because you were living up there and there wasn't that much else to do and they were your local team and you're not really going to get back down to London every other week, right, you could get into them.

27:22and you could start to move towards maybe supporting them. But the question I always have to think you have to ask yourself to get back to Joe's specific question is, how do you feel when they lose? It's really difficult to manufacture disappointment in your city.

27:36Luke Moore: You can manufacture being happy. Get swept up in the moment. I think you can. If you are coming away from Huddersfield that you've been going to since January and within about half an hour of the drive home you've forgotten about it, I don't think you can say you support them. like to me when I go and watch Fulham with you or I go and watch Spurs or I've been to watch Arsenal a few times this season like Arsenal lost at home 3-2 to May United this season and I was at the game and it was a bit of a sickening for Arsenal and it was an interesting game I enjoyed it I honestly couldn't remember anything about it now because it doesn't matter to me it's not that important to me I liked it at the time I did it for work we talked about it on the show blah blah blah but it's one of a million games now whereas I still get fucking pissed off when I think about Portsmouth losing certain games.

28:22I remember seeing Portsmouth losing 4-1 to the aforementioned Leighton Orient. And I was fucking pissed off. It was about 25 years ago. It still annoys me when it comes into my mind now. That stuff you can't replicate, right? So I think you have to ask yourself whether you actually care. It doesn't mean that when you and I went with Charlie to go and watch Newcastle against PSG in their first game in the Champions League. And we got into that, right? Of course you can.

28:45Luke Moore: Because how could you not get into that? Exactly, but it's not the same thing. No, it isn't the same thing. You're absolutely right. That's my answer. Yeah, I think that's right. I think with... Also as well, it talks about the new owners of Chelsea. I do get that. And perhaps there are some Chelsea fans, and if there are, get in touch. And fans of other clubs where you've gone, I can't support them anymore, and you genuinely have left it. However, I would say the fact is that you're pissed off with those owners suggests that you do care about the club. Because those owners are disgracing themselves all the time.

29:19and they are dragging that club through the mud at the moment

29:24Luke Moore: and Chelsea fans are rightly getting pissed off. You may well, as a result of that, turn your attention away from Chelsea and you may well go, you know what, I'm going to just put them down because it's upsetting me too much. And I get that totally. But I guarantee you, Joe, that if Chelsea, say, sold the club or those owners had some sort of, you know, life-changing experience and suddenly they became different people and the club was being ran in a different way, you'd be like, oh my goodness. You would then re-engage would be my suggestion. Perhaps not. I mean, maybe if that did happen in two years, five years, ten years, whatever it's going to be, and then you go, oh, actually it has changed and I'm actually not that bothered.

30:06Luke Moore: That may be an indication that you perhaps... So I think it happens over time and I think it's very difficult to maybe pinpoint an exact thing because you're talking about emotions. you're talking about it's almost if I may look it's almost a bit like your relationship with the football club if you think about relationships with people obviously they're people they're not a football club they're not an institution you think to yourself well I don't like the way you're being run recently so I think I have fallen out of love with you a little bit you've been consistent with that to be fair over the years but it's usually again if somebody pisses you off again sometimes with an individual you can go right that's I love this person I can't be bothered with them whatever you'll still have those feelings linger for a while it takes it and this is like when Andy Brassel made the disgraceful decision not to follow Wimbledon to Milton Keynes I didn't want to mention him he decided he didn't like him enough to go with him shows how fickle he is exactly he felt out of love with him instantly instantly I'll tell you what joke on the side what's another interesting dimension to this is just relating it back to my own experience is I live really close to Crystal Palace I live about a mile and a half away from Crystal Palace and they would be my local team and obviously I've got a son now who's slowly getting aware enough to like know what football is and go and kick it around ball around with his mates and stuff like that and I've signed him up for the Crystal Palace waiting list because it's a local team right and I'm not sure he'll want to be I mean he's actually since I did that he has actually started wearing his pocket shirt Is that how they work?

31:31Luke Moore: Do you get into the start of 11? It's a waiting list? Yeah exactly By the time he's about 18 he should be playing up front for him Okay I admire it if they change that they might win another I'd love that Yeah but he may grow to love his local team Yeah and then obviously before he's old enough to go on his own I'll probably take him and if I end up taking him and see the joy he gets from that team for example through his eyes I might start to like them yeah totally and I won't be able to affect that but I don't think there's ever a situation where I'm not going to be a Portsmouth fan I just don't think it's ever going to happen because of your formative years I think it's just been too deeply ingrained yeah but again formative years go on about that I think wherever you go you'll always have that with Portsmouth you can grow to like something you've always had that with Rangers with Rangers yes absolutely yeah but with Fulham though for example that was really unfair wasn't it sorry it was unkind I'm not even true well I was going to go with it but I mean I can I feel like I've talked about my support everyone thought you were a Maynard fan for ages didn't they why was that do you think I think it's because was I too lenient no I think it's because I think it's because you were always very supportive of them in Europe and they were still up until what 2013 they were still the the dominant team.

32:44I suppose so. And so I think people just put two and two together and it wasn't true so they got two and two together and got five. But anyway, we've done that to death. What about this one from Jackson on Instagram? Also on Instagram. Why is it with Instagram today? Bloody hell. Bloody Nora. He says the following, us Aussies look to Mark Schwarzer as an absolute goat due to his longevity in the Premier League. Do you think heroes of the lesser lights of English football get overshadowed because they don't win silverware and if so, who?

33:14Luke Moore: Inevitably they will. I don't think it's just a lack of silverware. I think you get...

33:22Luke Moore: I think back in the day this was an easier one and more obvious one because you would get a player who would stay at a club for a long time and be a legend there. And it was more obvious, if you see what I mean. Whereas now a good player can play, you know, a good player can do the rounds and maybe not get the props that certain fans of certain clubs would say. I mean, take a player like Steve Bull at Wolves, for example. Wolves legend, rightly so. Football League legend, you might say. Never played in the Premier League with Wolves. Or never played top flight with Wolves, actually, you could extend that to you.

33:59Maybe he did at West Brom. He was picked for England while not playing in the top flight, famously.

34:03Luke Moore: Well, he came on in the 1990 World Cup. He came on against Belgium, may have got other minutes elsewhere. he was probably overshadowed because he wasn't playing in the top tier but also again back in those days you had far less football coverage of course I think so other players if you think about nowadays they don't spend so much time at a club unless they're at the top tier or the top level so Bakayi Saka is going to be at Arsenal for many, many years. You would think it'd be unthinkable of him to go and play elsewhere. But it doesn't have to be they stay at the same club, though, does it? No, but I'm saying, yeah, true.

34:45Luke Moore: I think, though, that heroes of, as Jackson has put it, heroes of lesser lights of English football getting overshadowed. If a player moves around a bit, it would be more sideways moves, that kind of thing. I mean, say take someone like, I don't know, Wilfred Zaha, for example. Yeah, but I don't think he's been overshadowed. No, I don't think he has been overshadowed. And I think more because of the way football is viewed these days, also because of the internet and its current form, which has been around for many, many years as well. I know I sound so old-fashioned, but people of our age, there is a difference.

35:19Luke Moore: That's why I was talking about Steve Ball there. I think because you have lots of people desperate for a hot take, desperate to try and highlight things that they've missed, and everyone's suddenly really wise, and everyone goes, oh, well, actually, they never talk about this guy. Sometimes the lesser lights of English football can be, if I may say, overrated slightly. You might say, you know, you get, what's that guy's name? HMRC. Yeah, football, yeah. Of football, HMRC of football. And he goes, well, hang on a minute. Now, it is usually because that player is talking themselves up, like Jay Bothroyd saying that Carlo Ancelotti wished he'd signed him when he was at AC Milan because presumably he would have played him over Andrei Shevchenko.

35:58Luke Moore: You know, you get some utter nonsense, you know. And so I think sometimes people can be sort of wise after footballers' careers and so go the other way. So I don't actually think now that certain players are overlooked. Schwarzer, of course, played a lot before the internet became what it is now. The only one I can think maybe, but I don't think he gets overshadowed now as a bit of a throwback, and he has won a trophy recently, would be Jared Bowen at West Ham. He's a regular for England. But he's exactly, yeah. To me, the question's quite... I think it's a little bit antiquated. I think what you tend to find in my experience is that you've got players who are legends for certain clubs and everyone who supports that club knows who they are.

36:38Luke Moore: Tom Kearney be an example at Fulham. And race them. But even then, I think, I mean, he says the lesser likes of English football. He doesn't say the Premier League. True. So, I mean, Tom, most people who follow football will know at least the name Tom Kearney. Yeah, but they might not know the type of player he is and how good he's done. No, no, maybe not. But that's the point I'm going to make. Right. Ultimately, unless you are pulling up trees and making headlines and winning things, there's no motivation for any fan of any other club to give a shit and they're not going to go out and act most football fans aren't going to actively seek out those types of players like if you go if you relate it back I mean you talked about Steve Ball there you relate back to the football club I support I mean if you look at say Alan Knight right who played in goal for Portsmouth he played like I don't know how many games it was but it's like 700 games something like that right he only ever played for Portsmouth he's a legend at Portsmouth he played for him like 20 years every single person above a certain age in Portsmouth will know who he is and love him and he'll never have to buy a pint in Portsmouth ever again he had a big testimonial he's a legend at the club does anyone else know who he is?

37:46probably not but why would they? the point being I don't think they've been overlooked or overshadowed I just think that football is ultimately a meritocracy and you're right to make that add that context about now really the cream really does rise to the top because the top clubs just throw money at it and they will get all the players they want.

38:02Luke Moore: Because if Alan Knight is good enough he'll go elsewhere. Nowadays. I think it's difficult to make the argument that Steve Bull wants to live in his local area. He wants to win at Wolves. His payday is not the playing field is totally different now. It's difficult to make the argument that it would be the same now. Yeah, totally. But I do think that football is the ultimate meritocracy. Yeah. I mean if you want it you can get it. Yeah. And if you don't want it that's in itself quite notable. I mean to even it out a bit look at Matt Letizia. he wanted to stay at Southampton it's a credit to him in a way that he's a household name for different reasons now which is unfortunate but he's a household name as a player in the Premier League because he scored so many amazing goals and because also he became almost famous for not wanting to leave Southampton which in itself meant he wasn't overshadowed so I think it's a bit a nuance to the question really he also asks Jackson if it's because of a lack of silverware I don't know if I, I don't think that I think maybe individual silverware it sticks out a bit more.

39:04Luke Moore: Well, Harry Kane and Declan Rice. Yeah. Rice, okay, won the conference league, the Europa conference league. Yeah. And obviously Harry Kane, but at Spurs, Harry Kane wasn't overlooked. You're not talking individual accolades in silverware. And I also think it's difficult to be overshadowed these days because there's so much coverage. Yeah. I mean, there's so much stuff. I mean, I remember Alan Hansen talking about this goalie score for Liverpool way back in the day and he was talking about it and it was amazing and the rest of it and he said but there was not a single camera in the ground well I mean yeah the cynical person would say oh what a surprise Chick Charlie at Hibbs apparently there was no camera in the ground when he scored from the halfway line right that's what I mean so these things it's really difficult to be forgotten about or overshadowed or whatever isn't it so yeah I thought I'd bring in a universal one there by the way what's that Chick Charlie yeah everyone everyone is that why he's been overshadowed old Chico not enough cameras but also as well in terms of being overshadowed and whatnot obviously Kane and Declan Roy there.

39:59Luke Moore: But you mentioned it earlier, I said Wilfred Zaha, and you went, well, he's not been overshadowed. Nah. And he would be one, wouldn't he? You would think, because he was very good for Crystal Palace, didn't do anything at Man United, okay since moved abroad, but didn't win a trophy. Yeah, everyone knows Wilfred Zaha, they knew what a brilliant player he was. You're not going to go underrated. I think coverage is too all-encompassing these days. As much these days, yeah. Yeah, I think that's what it is. I think you're not playing in that kind of position. No, exactly, yeah. But poor old Alan Knight, do spend a moment thinking about him and buy a pint for him if you're in the Portsmouth area.

40:30He's actually been on well fairly recently and he is a legend in the Portsmouth so we do wish him all the best. We certainly do.

40:35Luke Moore: There we are. Thank you very much for your questions. Some great ones there. In fact, they were all great which is why they made the show. Yeah, exactly. If you didn't make the show, up your game. Sorry for slagging them off again. Get out of the habit of doing that. We do thank you. We do thank you for listening to the Football Ramble part of the Acast Creator Network. I'm back tomorrow with Jim and Pete. Until then, ta-ta for now.

41:04Luke Moore: The Football Ramble is a Stack Production and part of the Acast Creator Network.

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