Mailbag: When should you start looking at the league table?

0:00With almost half a million customers and over a trillion dollars of secure payments, Bill isn't new to intelligent finance. It's the proven way to simplify Bill pay and maximize cash flow. Want to learn more? Visit Bill.com slash proven for a special offer. Hey, Pablo Torre here. And if you listen to my show, Pablo Torre finds out, I think you have a sense of what it's all about. I, you know, dig past the surface level of stuff. And right now, as the NBA season tips off, I do need a reliable and smart way to actually watch these games. And that is why we're talking about Sling TV. Sling gives you not just basketball, but sports at a great price, starting at just$19.99 a month.

0:39We're talking NBA, NFL, college football, college basketball, hockey, soccer, and more. And the beauty here is total flexibility. You pick your plan, you have what you want, and you get the sports channels you actually care about. No loaded packages, no fluff. So get sports and more for a great price. Sling lets you do that. Essential base package needed. Limitations are applicable. Visit sling.com for full details. Hey guys, it is Pablo Torre from Pablo Torre finds out. And as a journalist, I like to think I have the answers. But every holiday season, gifting makes me think otherwise. Getting it right feels impossible and can get quite stressful.

1:16But thankfully, Sephora takes a lot of the pressure off. Whether you're shopping for a beauty expert, a skincare lover, or someone who is just hard to shop for, Sephora's got it all. The big assist comes from Sephora's expert beauty advisors, who remove the guesswork with personalized recommendations so you can find something thoughtful and useful for the people on your list. Beauty is a gift anyone can give. So this holiday season, shop gifts at Sephora and give something beautiful. Bomba Snows Cozy Winter Footwear, inside and out. Inside, warm merino wool, soft sheepskin shirling. Outside, fluffy sherpa and smooth suede.

1:54Inside, layers and layers of luxe cushioning. Outside, sturdy soles and grippy bottoms. Bombas slippers and shoes, a cozy way to stay in or step out. Visit bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash audio. One purchase equals one donated, always. This message is brought to you by Colguard. If you recorded songs off the radio for a mixtape, it might be time to screen for colon cancer. The Cologuard test is non-invasive, requires no special prep or time off, and you start screening right from your home. It's just three simple steps.

2:30Set up, sample, and ship. If you're 45 or older and at average risk, ask your doctor about the Cologuard test. Available by prescription only. Learn more or request a prescription at Cologuard.com slash podcast. I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. Can I also get the latest iPhone every year? Shh. Anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade-in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us.

3:08Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Edition terms apply for all offers.

3:17Luke Moore: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Football Ramble Mailbag. Play acting, suing Jamie Carragher and good old-fashioned needle of the orders of the day. It's Tuesday, 3rd of November. I'm Marcus Speller. I'm Luke Moore. And I'm Jim Campbell.

3:41Luke Moore: Hello, everybody. It's a terrific Tuesday here at the Football Ramble. And my goodness, am I glad to see the mailbag. Before we have another dip in the bag, I want to remind you all that you can message us on X, formerly known as Twitter, Blue Sky, or Instagram, at Football Ramble. Comment on YouTube or email us, show at footballramble.com. And of course, friends of the Ramble, you're our favourite and you get priority. Patreon.com forward slash Football Ramble, or click the Join button on YouTube, is where you can become a friend of the Ramble. and you're welcome around my house any time of day.

4:14Luke Moore: If you can find it. If you can find it. Any time of day. If you can't find it, message one of the other of us and we'll just give you the address. I don't know his address. We can get it. Okay, yeah. Can you do it, yeah. Gauntlet laid down. Shout questions for the letterbox when you're trying to get your kids to sleep. See how you like that. The line of security is tighter than the Arsenal defence. Or as I call it, Halloween. Halloween. All right, everybody. Let's have a dip in the bag then. We've got this from Ashley. On the Discord. Which means he's a friend of the Ramble. Friend of the Ramble.

4:44Luke Moore: We love you, Ash. Ash Bash. Now, Ashley asks this. With Aston Villa threatening to sue Jamie Carragher for his opinions, are the lads worried about someone coming to sue them for what they've previously said? I wasn't until the weekend. Luke Moore. You're going to go make a cup of tea. I would say that me and Pete are the most in danger. You don't? I'm going to Frank Lampard this and go, yeah, but no. But seriously, this is ridiculous. And this is something that is a terrible development if it were to be repeated by someone else for broadcasters generally, right? We should say at the top of this that yesterday, Aston Villa announced that they're dropping their threat of illegal action against Jamie Carragher, but they nevertheless made the threat in the first place.

5:29We talked a little bit yesterday about Carragher and Villa and the fact that Carragher apologized. now I'm broadly in favour of Jeremy Carragher as a concept and the person's a good guy and I like his output, I think he's great the fact that he apologised is makes it more difficult for us I would say because he's essentially backing down and I think the reasons that you said for the fact that he apologised yesterday are probably right, it's either the fact that Sky Sports or CBS have told him to or he's taken a bit of legal advice and the legal advice has been that if you soften it a bit and say you're sorry, it's probably going to go away.

6:10Luke Moore: Do you think as well, just to jump in there, because it's not actionable for my mum. No, no, it's not. But also, do you think he thinks... But he could be gummed up for a long time financially. Yeah, but he... Pundits, like the stuff they say, like Gary Neville saying, they're billionaire bottle jobs or something. Nobody's seriously offended, but it's a quote that stays with him and he probably gets a little stick and a billion pound blue bottle jobs, wasn't it? Yeah, exactly. That kind of thing. Do you think Carragher's thinking, people are going to ask me potentially a lot about this? Do you know what?

6:41Luke Moore: If I just say, all right, yeah, sorry about that, I'll just go, well, I've apologised if we've moved on. And you can just brush it aside. Maybe partly, but I do think, I mean, but I also think that he's in an invidious position because he is contracted to the official broadcaster. So if you're contracted to the official broadcaster, and you alluded to this yesterday, though you didn't explicitly say it, if you're contracted to the official broadcaster, So then elsewhere, you're almost undermining a part of the product and a different outlet, which is not related to the official broadcast, although it looks like it is, as you said.

7:14I think there's a case to answer there because I think that almost you're having your cake and eating it. I don't think it's anything to do with the legal stuff, by the way. It's not legally actionable. No, of course it's not. But we also have... Were you going to come back to me on that?

7:26Luke Moore: Well, I was going to say that I don't think it necessarily does undermine it because I think what's starting to happen with this is that people are forgetting the content of what Carragher said because he's apologised and sort of therefore going, oh, he must have had something to apologise for then. What he said was perfectly reasonable. He does not have anything to apologise for. I understand it from Jamie Carragher's point of view, why he's apologised for whatever reason. But that's not the point I'm making though. I think you're arguing a different point there. Let me make it a bit more explicit.

7:49You may still disagree, but give me a go. If you're an Aston Villa fan who pays through the nose for Sky Sports and the guy who's actively a pundit contracted to Sky Sports is saying, fuck off Villa fans. Sure, yeah. you are within your don't misquote him

8:01Luke Moore: shut the fuck up shut the fuck up I don't think you're within your rights to get the owner of the club to sue them but I think you're within your rights to go hang on a minute this is cake and eat it stuff here he's either got to do one thing or the other and I say that as someone who's very broadly supportive of him and I think he's a good broadcaster I do think there's something in that in terms of the wider point around to disagree with that I don't think there's anything in it okay but you think because I think again Jim's right people are forgetting what you actually said and the tone and the context in which it was said he said it very cheekily I'll just shut the fuck up there is a food chain in football we all know this he showed his working fair enough he also would have had the digital equivalent of people shouting insults through his letterbox all weekend exactly and he's got his right of reply which I think is part of the point of this actually how much does he have a right of reply on different platforms because he couldn't and wouldn't say that on Sky and also as well because it was such a throwaway comment to a wider point he was understandably and factually making then I think he's a bit like I don't want this to sort of hang around too much there you go, I apologise and I can do all I can to just go right fine, yeah whatever but I think, and my hope is that Aston Villa fans you're going to always get a few people and Twitter and you know it all brings out the worst on us because you know people are not going to say things in the pub because they're worried about what may happen to them not necessarily aggressively but someone is there you're not looking someone in the eye so we know how people act online on socials people are cowards completely so you know you'll always get some idiots you know you were talking Jim you quote some fool going on about have they all got earpieces in yesterday or whatever it was I sincerely hope that the vast majority and I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt I fully suspect or expect most Villa fans to be deeply embarrassed by their show we probably didn't cover that yesterday but the majority I've seen online are obviously thinking it's ridiculous they're embarrassed by it it's so small oh man I waited on it on Twitter because I think it's a maybe we can talk about it in a bit more detail about the wider implications I think it's a really dangerous thing and so I weighed in and I would say the majority of Villa fans who replied were sensible saying I'm embarrassed by this this is stupid painfully embarrassed of course so I get that but there's some big fan accounts the ones who are kind of proper one-eyed who invest their time and a lot of times their income and livelihood into following a club specifically who weren't like that who were like doubling down and all the rest of it so I think there's a concern there that people are becoming more marginalised and more you know just more kind of polemicised by the way that modern communication is now but there's a wider point here I think we should move on talking about it and the wider point is that football owners some of them are predisposed to this type of behaviour it might not always be exactly the behaviour we've seen from the Aston Villa owner but generally speaking it happens And let's not forget that I'm pretty sure Gary Neville is still banned from Nottingham Forest by Maranakis.

11:02Luke Moore: Oh my goodness, yeah. So that's something that, forgive me if that's out of date information, but I'm fairly certain until at least very recently he was. And that's something that definitely did happen. And the whole broadcasting community didn't wholesale start boycotting Forest as a matter of principle, which they probably in theory should have because they should have said he's entitled to have his view. He is supposed to be able to speak honestly about how he feels. And it's also happened many, many other times before. Well, journalists, some journalists get banned from certain clubs. I don't want to go into that too much because you get tangled up.

11:40Luke Moore: But we know there's certain managers back and they go, I don't want him in the press conference. Do you know what it is? It's in this age of, in the Western world, certainly populism. But it's way before that. Ferguson used to do that. No, indeed he did. Milan Mandaric at Portsmouth used to ban people all the time. Right, so there you go. And because no one had the attention on it because it was a smaller club and it could run out like his own personal fiefden, yeah. But in this, you know, what we have now with populist leaders, we think, oh my goodness, you know, they don't give a damn what anybody thinks, the sheer goal.

12:06Luke Moore: Yes, they've got sheer goal. But the reason why I say this is because you say about some owners are predispositioned with this. Often people who get to become, get to become, that's poor wording, often people who become billionaires, they do it because they've got sheer goal and they give the impression that they don't give a damn what you think. They're so thin-skinned. They're used to giving orders and getting what they want, right? Yeah, exactly. We see it kind of come to the fore in this type of situation. So when someone pushes back, this is not even pushing back, this is why it's such a bloody baffling thing with Carragher.

12:37Luke Moore: Like, honestly, it's so pathetic and so... Some people have posited that he's done it as a kind of to make a point about how other clubs wouldn't accept that kind of disrespect, which I don't agree with. I don't agree with that either. I don't think that's the case at all. but I think it's Occam's razor again I think it's the most obvious explanation is the right one which is that he's just thrown his rattle out of his pram got annoyed and doesn't really like to turn the TV on and see someone saying that about the club that he spent a lot of money owning but unfortunately for the most part that's just the price of doing business I tell you what if this becomes a thing oh Jason Cundey's in trouble isn't he exactly imagine if Spurs weren't we're going to sue our former player Jason Cundey because he keeps taking the piss out He's making us look silly and damaging our brand.

13:23Luke Moore: I mean, what damages your brand is this type of nonsense from the owner. They shouldn't care about what, I mean, they shouldn't care what players and managers and owners shouldn't care about what people like us think about. And that's your position of strength. Because we operate in a different ecosystem, and rightly so, and I think we all accept that. But I also think the type of people who are likely to be annoyed about this when it suits them seem to me to be the type of people who are also, you know, quote, free speech advocates, It's the least types of people. Well, you can't... It is the sign of a healthy society for the commentariat, the media, the fans, the normal people, the person on the street, to be able to, without fear or favour, articulate criticism or disagreement with those in power.

14:08The whole point of the media is to speak truth to power. Not enough people do it these days, particularly in the current environment in which we live. So it's important it happens. I do think there's a chance that Carragher is slightly compromised for the reason I've said. You don't agree, that's absolutely fine. But I do think there's an element to that. But there's absolutely no way, to go back to the question, that I'm ever worried about someone suing us for what we've said because we try to, well, we don't try to. We always do operate and broadcast within the law. If you know the laws, then you should be okay.

14:40Exactly. And so anything else is basically just going to be a fair comment. The problem is that the England-Wales legal system, you can use it for lawfare. It's almost like going to a poker game with no limit and you've got more money than anyone else. You can gum it up and make it really difficult for people to keep responding to these things.

15:00Luke Moore: Well, I mean, there was an infamous example of this in the Premier League, so I can't say who it was, but the press officer at that club would often point out to certain journalists, by the way, I'm not having a pop at you and I like you, which is why I'm warning you that the owner of this football club is very, very studious in what you write about us. And the pockets are incredibly deep. And what you're just saying there, Luke, It's intimidation. It's intimidation and can go through the courts and it will not make the blindest bit of difference even if that person is, you know, has got no kind of good basis on this, but your bank account will suffer severely for it.

15:49Luke Moore: Mind how you go kind of thing. So there is that that's kind of going on. We've never had that. Keys and Gray threatened to sue us, but it never happened. So, I mean, that's the closest thing to me. I mean, Richard Keys would often say that on Twitter. But I should also say now, though, what I haven't taken into account is that they are now officially unleashed. yes they might come back they might come back have a go at this to directly answer the question I think Carlos Tevez could probably come after me said some mean things about him in the past yeah yeah he could do and you but you haven't I mean our days no you haven't you just said you didn't he's commented on his behaviour and how it makes him sound like a baby yeah exactly he's saying like a baby exactly but I mean the floodgates might be open here right yeah but you've got to have you've got to have a reputation to be produced first true yeah the thing you said at the start of this it's not actually none of this stuff is actionable it's not You just don't like it very much.

16:36And that's not the basis for a legal response. It's not the basis. So just move on with life. Also, be careful what you wish for, right? Because although the billionaire, it suits a billionaire to do whatever he wants and be able to have it all his own way, it doesn't really suit the fans of any club to have absolutely no free opinionated media around the game that we all love because that's part of the entertainment of it, right? There's lots of people who like lots of different shows who love the fact, as Jim's alluded to, that some of it's a bit edgy, some of it's fun, some of it's like saying what you're thinking, some of it is making you think about things slightly differently and some of it is criticising the club and holding power to account.

17:13There's lots of official podcasts out there and official outlets out there that do a really good job of holding their clubs to account. You guys did it on the Arsenal show recently when there was talk of Arsenal making those positions redundant, right? That's a part of it. You've got to speak truth to power occasionally because that's what it's all about and people should be careful about not wanting that, particularly of their fans supporting this frankly ridiculous behaviour from their owner.

17:38Luke Moore: Indeed. And again, just to remind everybody, Carrigan didn't say any of that. He said there's a food chain in football and then said, shut the fuck up, Villa fans. That's all it was. That's all it was.

18:03your thoughts. Maybe you've left something unresolved and just can't move on. While we can't delete our worries, we can address them with therapy. BetterHelp has a wide range of licensed professional therapists who specialise in counselling, marriage therapy, family therapy and social work, all with the required education, training, exams and practice and with at least three years and 1 ,000 hours of hands-on experience. Whatever you need help with, BetterHelp can help you find the right person to address it. Insurance options may now be available nationwide with BetterHelp. With insurance, many members pay$15 or less.

18:37Some pay nothing. BetterHelp is now in network with more than 125 health plans and with many co-pays as low as$15 for eligible members. If you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20 % off your first month.

18:53Luke Moore: Sign up and get 20 % off at betterhelp.com. slash ramble. That's better. H-E-L-P dot com slash ramble. Do you snore? Did somebody hand you a CPAP and did you quietly stop using it? The mask that never quite seals, the hose tugging at you every time you roll over, a machine sitting abandoned in a closet. Excite OSA works a different way. It treats a root cause instead of managing the noise and you use it while you're awake. 20 minutes a day, while the coffee brews, while you set your fantasy lineup. An FDA-cleared prescription device for primary snoring and mild obstructive sleep apnea. Then you go to bed like a person, nothing strapped on, nothing plugged in.

19:42In clinical studies, 90 % of patients saw a reduction in snoring. No sleep study required. Prescribed online, shipped to your door. ExciteOSA at springsleep.com slash sleep20. Code sleep20 for 20 % off. ExciteOSA is an FDA-cleared prescription-only device for primary snoring and mild obstructive sleep apnea. Not for everyone. Individual results vary. Risks and benefits at springsleep.com. Some days, getting the work done isn't the problem. Staying locked in is. Alpha Brain is Onnit's daily nootropic formula for cognitive support, designed to support memory, focus, attention, and mental clarity.

20:28Its formula with science-driven ingredients include theanine and huperzine A to support focus and memory. And it's caffeine-free. So when you're deep in the work, Alpha Brain helps support enhanced productivity and tune-out distractions. Get focused on what matters. Shop Alpha Brain now at onnit.com. I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. Can I also get the latest iPhone every year? Shh. Anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now.

21:05No trade in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

21:24Luke Moore: Right, we move on to Matt Baker, again from the Discord. We love you, Bakes. At the risk of sounding all Brexit, how can we stop the scourge of players' play-acting? It's pathetic. An interesting follow-up from the Sevens and Nines on our Discord said this, I know it's going to be an unpopular stance, but I'd hate to see that kind of nonsense out of the game. All part of the aggro and drama for me. Yeah, so we had a lot of people asking about it and we had a lot of people on both sides of it. So I guess that kind of summarises that quite neatly. I mean, there was a bit of chat about this in terms of, I suppose, play acting if you're exaggerating contact or you're getting the referee's attention because obviously in the Arsenal game, some were saying, you know, that's what Isaac should have or needed to do to get the decision.

22:10These comments and questions have come in out of response to the game at Anfield, haven't they? That's basically what it is because you've got that one you've talked about but you've also got the Alexis McAllister one.

22:18Luke Moore: And Gabrielle too. And the Gabrielle earlier on in the game kind of play acting and simulating kind of some kind of, I don't actually really know what he was doing. Quite strange really. You see it in isolation. It's not kind of some kind of avant-garde theatre performance or anything else. Like a mime that was stung by a wasp. Basically, exactly that. But then going back on to bring it all back around to Carragher again, not to make it a Jeremy Carragher special, but he actually came out quite vociferously against McAllister after the game. He did, yeah. He's saying, people have got to stamp this out.

22:45I would prefer Liverpool to win the game I want Liverpool to win blah blah blah this was the head's brush

22:50Luke Moore: but this is ridiculous he's got to stop well he's trying to get Madiweke sent off there isn't he yes of course he is I think they're slightly different he's highlighting the head contact I don't know I don't know why players do it I get why so I think there's two separate things here one is exaggerating contact to get the referee to make a decision and I would put the ESAC thing in that but then there's the play acting as in like pretending you're actually hurt which to me and I've said this before I said it off the back of Didier Drogba once up front for Chelsea getting in an altercation Yen Delayman and they both went down both of them went down pretending they were badly hurt no but Drogba did a worse one once it might have been in the European game where he pretended like he was having a fit on the floor I mean Drogba was quite bad for that yeah and like to me the point I made at the time I remember it because I got a lot of stick for it I don't know why Chelsea fans proper Chelsea go on Chelsea was careful they'll sue you But surely that is something that should be really heavily punished because you're essentially putting doubt in the mind of a referee when he might have to make almost a life or death decision.

23:55Luke Moore: Yeah, but especially certain high-profile... ...about a severely hurt player. Certain high-profile examples that we've had in football for a few years. So I think that there's two aspects to it. You shouldn't have to exaggerate contact and all that kind of stuff now with VAR, and referees should know what a foul is and what it isn't. they obviously let themselves down with the Isak and Timber thing at Anford at the weekend. But on the feigning injury thing, which I think is the more pertinent one, I think people who love football and who are well-versed in the Premier League and people who watch it all the time like us sometimes lose sight of the fact that that feigning injury stuff is really off-putting to people who are just starting to watch the game.

24:38Luke Moore: It's the one thing that people who are not football fans will often say is why do they play it? And you hear it over the World Cup, don't you? You do. You have kind of... Older family members who are watching games when they don't normally, shall we say. Is that... I don't know whether it's more so in this country. Maybe it isn't. I don't know. But what is clear is whether you are encouraged to cheat or bend the rules like you are in... Clearly, there's a difference between how they play the game in Norway to Argentina, for example. but the exaggerating contact is one thing but you're right Luke to act like you've been hurt is something else and I agree with you because what Alexis McAllister could do there to highlight that example, there's loads of examples over the years so we're not just picking on McAllister here but what you can do, if you really want to do it just fall to the ground and get back up do you know what I mean?

25:32Luke Moore: I'm not encouraging that but to roll around as if you've hurt your head I mean Rivaldo in the 2002 World Cup that was amazing it's Turkey yeah where the ball hit his knees that's so good I mean that is like that's one of the great examples of one of the finest players of his generation so it is incredibly off-putting the difficulty is to police that your referee is making a choice of it didn't hurt you that much and you could imagine footballers then getting you know a load of crap after the game and the footballer then coming out well it did the referee can't tell me how much I've been hurt and I think you maybe Yeah, but he can.

26:07Luke Moore: But he can't really. Well, it depends on the circumstances, doesn't it? If it's a player who's trying to get someone booked, which was the case with McAllister or sent off, then they get... I mean, McAllister was booked in that exchange, right? So the mechanism is there. Didn't it happen with Yarmouk in the Brentford game, though? He got sent off. He got sent off a base. Yeah, that was VAR, though, wasn't it? But the McAllister one, you have to remember, though, there's a bit of a melee and suddenly it all goes off. Yes, of course you have VAR, which is the one thing you could use for this. is it almost like too much footage to look at like if we want the game quicker if you're saying that if he's exaggerated or he's trying to get another player sent off it should go down as diving therefore he should be booked Simulation Simulation Yeah And that is what I suppose that would be how you would go about that then So this is it this is what I mean so I mean the mechanism is there and I believe McAllister was booked for what would have been simulation so it's all baked in I don't think he was booked for the simulation He was booked for the melee Yeah because him and Timber Oh okay It was him Timber basically almost like calls in exactly the melee and all that, which is why Timber got booked as well.

27:08Luke Moore: Because Timber goes over to McAllister because Odegaard was on the ground and he says something and taps him on the head. And Timber goes over and that's what made it all kind of flare up. So he's not been booked for that. So you're saying he could have been booked for that and then a second... I would have thought that that would count as simulation, right? If you're pretending someone's headbutt. But you never see anybody get booked for that sort of behaviour. Occasionally like a bad dive. because referees don't regularly enforce the laws for their own reasons some of which are legitimate some referees don't want to be the referee at the centre of a big thing where they end up sending off five players or whatever because a lot of the chat around dissent is just book them all and it will last for a week and that will be it and it's easier said than done I don't think that would happen I just I think you have penalties now given for that sort of rugby tackle style defending and you say, well, if you do that once, it's going to stop it all.

28:02Luke Moore: But it doesn't stop it all. I think it's stopped it quite a bit. And then you get people going, oh, well, it wasn't that much. I know what you mean, Luke, but I don't think you can just start dishing out yellows left, right and centre because it sets a precedent. We're getting away from the topic anyway. The main point is we've established this kind of exaggerated contact to try and get a decision, which you shouldn't need to do now because a referee should be a referee to game properly, especially with the backup of VAR. the problem with that part of it is now referees have VAR in their back pocket they're not as inclined to intervene and make decisions because they think VAR will bail them out which doesn't always happen didn't happen in Anfield perhaps for that reason perhaps not and the second thing is this failing injury thing the failing injury thing is they've gone some way towards punishing it by saying if your physio comes on the pitch you're off for a minute you know you can't come back on again for a minute because what was happening was that being used to slow the game down I've been embarrassed on behalf of the Premier League when I've been in the US and I've said to my wife's friends or whatever let's go to the bar and watch the game and they're all not really Premier League fans and they're interested and they see all that happening and they're just fucking laughing at it what are you doing in NFL for example it's a massive they never do that in NFL they take massive hits and they get big big fucking contact and they never stay down it's a really concerning thing if a quarterback stays down in an NFL game it's just not part of the culture so it's difficult to see what you could do to stop it it is embarrassing I take your point about the referee can the referee tell if a player's hurt or not I would say in that McAllister case particularly he's not hurt you can see he's not fucking hurt he might not have seen it though in the melee he may not have done which is when I think VAR comes in well I think that you lean on VAR so I think I'd be I mean I'm surprised that 7 and 9 saying it's I mean he knew it was you know it was an unpopular stance but yeah I think if you try and stamp all that sort of stuff out it is on his take if you are going to make your piece with the fact that it's part of his words the drama of the game that you try and kind of hoodwink the referee or you try and get an advantage by doing it you then can't really complain when decisions go against you because you're making it much more difficult for the referee I mean it is part of the theatre of it isn't it which I think is sort of part of the point he's making I think actually from Matt Baker's original question how can we stop the scourge of players play acting this question has been being asked since I remember being into football since I was a child.

30:28Luke Moore: Yeah. There are certain things you cannot stop. Yeah. And there are certain things you can just try to kind of mitigate. Play acting is going to be one of them. There are just too many different kind of variables in when this is going to happen, what circumstances are going to happen, when it's actually completely misinterpreted. We sometimes see, this is the thing that happens over the World Cup as well, isn't it? When you get people who are, they sort of project this idea that footballers are kind of overpaid prima donnas who dive all the time. You see like actual fouls and players go flying because they've been knocked over at speed and people going, oh, come on, get up.

31:04Luke Moore: And like, this is projected onto players as well. I don't think it's something where you can think about it in terms of it ever being stopped. It's just not, it's not possible to stop these things in a game like this. We've tried to stop players handballing it. Yeah, exactly. And look where we are. Made it fucking worse. Exactly, made it worse.

31:52We'll see you next time. Bonvoy. Book direct at Marriott.com or on the Marriott Bonvoy app.

32:22Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers. Hey, I'm Pablo Torre, host of Pablo Torre Finds Out, and I have chased down a lot of strange stories, but nothing quite like what's inside a McDonald's quarter pounder with cheese. 100 % fresh beef cooked right when you order it, hand-topped onions plus cheese and pickles in every bite, and right now you can get one with medium fries and a drink for just$8. Only at McDonald's. For a limited time only, prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California.

32:58And for delivery, fresh beef not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Offer not valid for delivery.

33:11Luke Moore: Interestingly, we're going to move on to a question from Moon, again on the Discord. And Moon is asking this. Where's all the needle gone in the Premier League? I don't know maybe Needle looks differently now Moon when was the last time a manager or two players even really had a pop at each other in a press conference or in the tunnel or you had real rivalries on the pitch you used to have managers having digs at each other all the time, players forming real grudges with each other, real ongoing battles with opposite numbers, Keane and Vieira for example especially with title contenders that formed out of actual competition and not just traditional derby rivals now it's all garlic mayo let's be friends Liverpool versus Man City stuff so why?

33:55Luke Moore: yeah why do you think the needle's gone? where's it gone? brackets don't make a haystacks joke what do you think then? I mean we just talked about diving and play acting and gamesmanship there do you think Moon's got a a point? not a problem he's got a problem but it is clearly but do you think he's got a point Jim? the answer's very simple he plays for Burnley now I miss Jamie Vardy so much when it comes to these things I think Moon has an interesting point here isn't it? because there's a needle between clubs, obviously. Forest and Palace. Yeah, Forest and Palace, Aston Villa and everyone these days.

34:26Luke Moore: And, you know, the various kind of big clubs that, you know, have needle between each other in terms of fans. But he's right, isn't there? I mean, I think Jose Mourinho is probably the kind of master architect of this type of thing. I think people often said we've not had a character like this since Brian Clough, which shows you quite clearly how rare that is. Just in that type of personality is a very, very rare thing. And it's not something that someone can fake to try and sort of gain an advantage and all that. It would be absolutely exhausting to try to be like that if you're not naturally disposed that way.

34:59Luke Moore: And I wonder if we're just in a relatively quiet period of calm without one of those people around. Possibly. I mean, I remember, obviously, Ferguson and Wenger, the whole kind of, he's come from Japan, and, you know, he should keep his mouth shut, firmly shut, is what Ferguson said to Wenger. but of course for Alex Ferguson one of the greatest managers of all time even back in back in those days had he finished his managerial career at the end of that season that he said it he was still a legend of course so he's he's standing there or sitting on his throne kind of thing knowing that he can just say things he had the media wrapped around his finger so a very different thing also there was time for it to be built up there was time there was time exactly but Mourinho saying that Arsene Wenger is a specialist in failure and a voyeur that kind of thing you remember Mark Hughes was it again maybe it was maybe it's Wenger because I'm pretty sure Mark Hughes was it Hughes responding to Wenger or something he was like Wenger said this he went oh did he oh really and there was a bit of aggression maybe we're missing Hughes had the handshake thing as well yeah maybe it's Wenger is the sort of common denominator last we had Conte and Tuchel yeah that was good even though that was a moment though wasn't it rather than a feud but managers maybe but we're talking about Ferguson and Wenger so they stuck around a long time exactly my feeling is I don't know if this is a bit kind of borne out by the evidence but managers don't stick around as long no that's definitely a factor but also you've only if you look at the managers in the Premier League at the moment and we're only focusing on managers here maybe we can talk about players in a minute but the managers we've got in the Premier League at the moment I can only rethink of maybe two or three that are that type of character yeah I don't know what you mean because you've got Arteta who's definitely got it in him you'd say you've got David Moyes has probably got it in him and you'd say De Zerbe's got it in him probably Mareska maybe but the difference is all the other ones whether it's a Jekirovic or a kind of you know one or two others a lot of them are quite new in the job so if you're if you're Jekirovic at Hull for example you're probably putting all your energy into actually trying to get as many points as you can you've got time for those distractions you don't want these distractions or you've not been quote wronged yet and we'll wait and see what the reaction is but a lot of the other coaches they're they're quite I think they're quite mild characters in comparison to some of these names you mentioned Yeah, it would be mad if a relatively experienced manager just suddenly started having a pop-up.

37:21Hurtzler's not like that. Alonso's not like that. Arreola's not like that. There's loads of them who just aren't really like that.

37:27Luke Moore: It's an opportunity for Man United to bring in Conte and just let him loose. Conte won the Premier League course with Chelsea, won titles in Serie A. Maybe it is that idea of if your feet are far beneath, tucked away nicely under the desk, that's when you start going right I'm not having this kind of thing or it might just be that you know people are less accepting of this type of behaviour in society in general now I mean perhaps I mean it could well they're more accepting of it aren't they well political class are terrible compared to what used to be learned very much so but I do think just what about players on the pitch though do you think managers are saying it's about the distraction I agree don't get involved in that maybe I mean if I was a manager I could imagine you do not get involved like just sod all that sort of stuff So I think there's an element of the biggest clubs in the land at the moment, and have been for, say, the last five or ten years.

38:20Luke Moore: Control is the thing that they want the most, on the pitch and off the pitch. The big elite level clubs, as we now call them, they're going on on all fronts. Again, back in the day, if you take it from the decade that Celtic won a quadruple, wasn't it? But I'm going to put it in a treble. so Celtic in the 60s in European football in terms of the big you know in terms of Champions League and the classic treble it happened once a decade until you get into the 21st century and suddenly you got Barcelona do it a couple of times and you know Bayern Munich and so this idea that teams can just hoover up all the trophies and it's all about the control of that and you see that in the type of players they sign the kind of stuff they do and you control everything you don't want any kind of disruption.

39:13Luke Moore: You want to minimalise all the factors that could go wrong. So it's the style of play. The type of human being you need to be to be a professional footballer now is far more benign. There's that as well. So you always have to basically keep calm as much as you can. You don't want chaos. There was a bit of aggro in the League Cup last week. There was. So if that spills out the next time those two teams play each other you might suck the bad. But what do Arsenal want to do or anybody, man you're not going to go to Grimsby, calm, controlled, none of the chaos. And this needle is, it brings chaos and so I think that's why players whether you play for Arsenal Man City or whoever the big clubs are you want that level of control so you do not want to be getting involved in this and I think that's probably why whereas when Man United were winning the league in a couple of doubles or Blackburn were or whoever this idea of right we are going to win everything we're going to control it I just think the lie of the land is different now yeah part of the fun of the needle though is it's unintentional right it just spills out of two people with a real dislike for each other Far more unrefined in the 90s.

40:12Like far edgier, far more kind of rough around the edges, the types of characters. You could still get away, if you were a really good player, you could still get away with being a bit rough around the edges. Maybe a little bit unfit, a little bit of a character, a little bit more of a personality about you. And these days, if you do get those players, like a Jamie Vardy or a Jack Grealish, they're exceptions. They're not... Grealish is not really one for the needle, though. but I'm just talking about personality generally which is absolutely related to it it's totally related to it I mean all the needle

40:45Luke Moore: seems to be you know in international football now or in the Man United dressing room or in the Man United dressing room I mean I think the way the referees officiate the games is you know that's made a difference as well I mean you think again back in the day the idea of needle okay you don't have to smash somebody you know you can still have a little bit because there was a bit at Anfield but you know the idea that you can really take it out on someone you know when Graeme Sooners talks about going away to Stoyle book arrest in the European Cup and all that kind of stuff. That, I think, has probably calmed it down a little bit.

41:13Luke Moore: And it all seems very sort of bitty and a bit pathetic, almost. Do you think part of it as well is the news cycle is faster, so things get nipped in the bud quicker? Possibly. Like, if the Keenan Vieira thing was happening these days, you've got sort of wall-to-wall kind of coverage. But also, as well, the Keenan Vieira was such a spectacular example, we therefore think it was the norm. It wasn't the norm. How many other big clashes? They were the two big sides they were the captains and the big totemic players of those teams. I guess there was the 0-0 at Old Trafford with Keown and Van Nistelro but again that sort of club to club needle.

41:45Luke Moore: You can see that now you know. I don't know that was a pretty seismic moment wasn't it? Keown doing that to Van Nistelro you don't see that. Turning into a vampire you don't do that all the time. For like two or three seconds and it being caught on camera. Yeah fair enough fair enough. Yeah well let's move on then before we start having a go at each other from David on email when should we look at the league table with Marcus studying the table from the opening minute of the first game and Luke's refusal to look at the table until injury time of the last weekend of the football. That's when it counts.

42:14Luke Moore: When are the good times to look at the table? And he gives us a little checklist here. How about first check at the international break? See how teams have started. New players have settled in. Surprise starts, et cetera. I think that's fair. You would go against that though, Luke. No, I like this list that he's done. I've got it in front of me. I like it. You carry on. Second check in late November slash early December with a check on the Christmas and New Year fixture list also involved. Yeah. Third, early January. So pretty quick after that one. I don't think you need another one in early January.

42:42I was going to say,

42:42Luke Moore: I think you do one or the other there. Early January when there's a break for the FA Cup, see how the Christmas football has impacted things. Actually, it's a busy period that, isn't it? So he does make a good point. Maybe I was quick there to... We've also got like a little weird extended like winter break now where teams don't play for a while and it's kind of staggered. So maybe at the end of that would be best. Yeah. Fourth check at Easter. it does depend where Easter falls of course then it's open season if your team's in relegation trouble check after every fixture offer Fulham sit back comfortably knowing that whatever happens you're likely to finish 12th I'll take that right now so I totally agree with I think it does slightly depend when Easter is but I think as a general rule Easter beyond fill your boots lad would you give me March?

43:29Luke Moore: Declan Rice said the table doesn't mean much until February or March. So there we go. Graham's soon there said you never look at it until Christmas. I think... I just feel like, you know, the second half of the season, fine. Fill your boots. I just think early on it's totally pointless. I don't think they should publish it at all until Christmas Day. That'd be great. So you can do the work in yourself if you want to. But otherwise, you just gotta wait. One of those things you used to get in 442 magazine where you had to put the ladder. So when you say, so right now after nine games, you think it's totally pointless?

43:59I don't think it's... Okay, nine games in is over a quarter of the way in, right? Oh, sorry, just under a quarter of the way in, right? I think that's reasonable. I think, look at it now, get an idea of how teams have started. But I don't think it doesn't mean much come the end of the season, no.

44:15Luke Moore: Yeah, I think actually the Premier League have to be very careful because if you look at the table now, it's got Aston Villa in ninth, which sounds like it is, you know, they're trying to stop their ascendancy there. So be careful, Premier League. You're just coming out of this stuff for City. you don't want another big illegal case put it this way go on then tell me one thing that you are absolutely sure cannot happen as it relates to the Premier League table now after nine games the only thing I can think of well I'm going to give you a chance the only thing I can think of is that like Man United aren't going to win the league that's the only thing you can think of nothing else is decided there's a lot my point would be only one of the top five right now and that's being very generous can win the league in fact I think I would say only one of the top two personally but after nine games in though you would be proven a fool by many many Premier League seasons from the past by that yeah exactly so you think outside the top five one of those teams can win the league no the point is it's possible it is possible yeah it's all possible nothing's decided so therefore there's no point worrying about it that's the basic crux of the sentence yeah but I think but I like David I generally like David's plan the four bullet point plan is a very good plan it's a great plan yeah I think a crucial thing what's more telling than the actual table is the form table form table is five games and we've had two nearly had two goes around the form table up to do six I think when I look at the league table I'm actually often looking at who's scoring the most goals and who's conceding the most goals nice angle you see often you overlook that so when I crank open the league table you get re-angry do you crank it open?

45:59Luke Moore: yeah exactly you get very upset with me when I load it up you get very upset with me and it's often to do with who's scoring the goals where's daddy he's in the Premier League table vault again cranking it open of course he is as is his want his favourite spot of course so would you sign up to David's four point plan reluctantly yeah okay good we've got the great we've got the great November international break of 2026 to look forward to but you'll be so consumed by international football you won't want to look at the table at that point I'll be looking at the nation's league table there we go there's tables everywhere if you just know where to look.

46:30Luke Moore: Another one's open. Yeah. You must love the new European table. I do indeed. Also, there's an argument, isn't there, that the table is relevant to different teams in different ways at certain points of the season. So not long ago, Spurs were bottom. After three wins, they're eighth, which tells you the type of where we are in the season. The type of maniac. That's great reading. And you can't take your eyes off it because it changes all the time. Right. Let's close that door. Let's open this one from Richard on Instagram to finish the show. Hey guys, I have a nice piece of useless info if you'd like to hear it.

47:02Luke Moore: Well, we would, Richard. Richard goes on to say, I was listening back to some of the best of rambles. Now, Richard. And on the 2014-15 version, Pete reads out a tweet from a footballer who said, That's what football do to you. Now, Long in the Tooth Ramble fans will remember that became a little bit of a ramble. Catchphrase. That's what football do to you. Richard says, Well, do you know who that man was who had football done to him? none other than Southport which is the team he was playing for in 2014-15 Blackburn, Brentford, Arsenal and Spain's David Raya he was the guy who said it isn't that wonderful I completely forgot yeah no yeah absolutely I'd forgotten that it was David Raya who said that's what football do to you we wouldn't have known who he was then but I think Richard's suspicions were probably aroused when David Raya didn't win the best goalkeeper at the Ballon d 'Or Awards and then I said I turned around and went that's what football do to you what would it be in Spanish when you know what David Rea sounds like it's even better because he's got that great accent where obviously he came over to the UK when he was about 15 and he played at Blackburn and Southport and what not so he sounds very Spanish until he doesn't so he's like hello I'm David Rea from Spain that's what the football do to you it's great it's all over the shop Producer Bruno has had a go at translating into Spanish.

48:26Luke Moore: Give it a go. Eso es lo que el fútbol te hace. No, it doesn't quite ring off the tongue. Is that a delivery or do you think it's just the same generally? I think we can work on the delivery and the translation. Get it right for next time. We'll buy eso es lo que el fútbol te hace is how Nick Huer would say it. So I think David Ryan should have been given best goalkeeper of the year at the Ballon d 'Or. People will immediately say, but he doesn't start for Spain. and I, Simon does. I mean, it's a strong argument. It is one area where I would like to ask Luis de la Fuente, what's he doing? And then he would turn around and go, I'm winning trophies.

48:59Luke Moore: Yes. I'm winning the big trophies. And I would go, yeah, there is that. It's interesting to consider that, I've checked this earlier, David Rye's got 452 senior first team appearances in his career and 14 Spain caps. Yeah. There's 14. He's so unlucky. But they've had so many, I mean, so many good Spanish teams. Do you remember like, I mean, Victor Valdez hardly got capped. Yeah. And he was, and he was, because he was there. Yeah, and they had, Pep Reina as well was there. Loads of good goalkeepers, you know. But I honestly think David Rai is a better goalkeeper than Unai Simon. Yeah, I do as well, obviously.

49:29Luke Moore: I know you don't do it on, they don't do those awards necessarily on ability. They do it on impact for the team. Yeah, and the World Cup has a massive weighting in terms of that voting. But I would say that lends even more credence to David Rai because I think David Rai's impact for Arsenal winning the league and getting to the Champions League final, he played a major part in that. Whereas Unai Simon, like I think he did okay. He did fine at the World Cup. I think he was decent enough. but if you look at it outside of that and you also look at that Spain side and the defence and so on Conceded something like 73 goals for Bilbao last season and obviously he faces a lot more shots which again I think he's probably factored into it but I think Raya's really unlucky They only conceded one goal at the World Cup I totally get that point but I think David Raya's unlucky but again that is what football has done to the man Didn't play a minute in the World Cup did he Raya?

50:13Luke Moore: Didn't need to for my money Nope Make your mind up then Hands off the trophy sadly for David Raya massive hands as well big hands you've seen his hands they are massive and I've shaken David James David James' hands David Hammers got there in the end thanks for listening to the Football Ramble part of the Acast Greater Network Jim and I will be back with Vish tomorrow to talk more about this thing called football until then thanks very much

50:49Part of the ACAST Creator Network.

51:19The Night Pack helps you wind down and supports a calm, relaxed state. Less time managing your supplements, more support for your day and night. Shop Total Human now at onnit.com. I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh. Anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us.

51:55Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment. Purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers. The quarter pounder with cheese is made with 100 % fresh beef. Cook when you order it. Add hot crispy fries and an ice cold Coke. And hopefully a lot of napkins. All for$8. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. Hey guys, it is Pablo Torre from Pablo Torre finds out. And as a journalist, I like to think I have the answers. But every holiday season, gifting makes me think otherwise. Getting it right feels impossible and can get quite stressful.

52:30But thankfully, Sephora takes a lot of the pressure off. Whether you're shopping for a beauty expert, a skincare lover, or someone who is just hard to shop for, Sephora's got it all. The big assist comes from Sephora's expert beauty advisors, who remove the guesswork with personalized recommendations so you can find something thoughtful and useful for the people on your list. Beauty is a gift anyone can give. So this holiday season, shop gifts at Sephora and give something beautiful.