On The Continent: Au revoir Olympique Lyonnais

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3:07Individual results may vary. Hey everyone, Andy here. Over the next few weeks, we're bringing you a few shows from across the other sports shows across the Static Network. So let's start with one of mine. Here is this week's episode of On the Continent, the show where I'm joined by broadcasting legend Dotton Adebayo and a range of European football experts to chat through the latest news from across the continent. This week, I'm joined by Dotton and French football expert Jonathan Johnson to get the lowdown on Lyon's relegation from Ligue 1, yikes, Atletico Madrid's disaster club World Cup and whether Benfica could give Chelsea a bloody nose.

3:48This week, we also released our three-part documentary on the Club World Cup over on OTC. I travelled to Los Angeles to get the view on the ground from the people at the heart of the competition, the players, the coaches, but most importantly, the fans. If you like what you hear, then just search On the Continent wherever you get your podcasts to subscribe now. But for now, enjoy this episode of OTC. Welcome to On the Continent, your definitive guide to the week in European football. I'm Andy Brassel. And I'm Jonathan Johnson. On this edition, how Lyon has ended up relegated despite finishing sixth in Ligue 1.

4:30Also, the indignity of being the first big name to fall at the Club World Cup. Where does it leave Atletico and Diego Simeone? And can the dark horse of Benfica do the same to Chelsea as what they've done to Bayern in the Club World Cup?

4:54JJ, would you mind to begin with explaining how a team ends up sixth in the league at the end of last season and gets relegated in France? Well, I'll do my best. So Lyon, obviously, the dominant force of French football from the early 2000s, fallen on slightly harder times over the best part of the last decade or so. Now, just to break down the story, completely introduce all the main players. You have the current face of the ownership, the American John Textor, who also has a host of other clubs through his Eagle Football Holdings group, which includes Brazilian giants Botafogo. He took over from the immensely popular former owner, Jean-Michel Ollas, one of the most influential figures in modern French footballing history.

5:45And that in itself has been quite bitter and been very emotional for the Lyon fan base to go through for Ollas, as well as the departing owner. And obviously, a sense of much frustration, a source of much frustration for Textor as the incoming ownership. So now in French football, for those who are less familiar with it than Andy and I, there is a financial watchdog for the professional French clubs called the DNCG. There's also one for the semi-professionals, but I'm not going to get into that branch of the DNCG. And this body carries out summer and winter budget checks on all professional clubs.

6:26Last winter, there was provisional relegation that was handed down to Lyon unless their financial situation improved. Now, fast forward, not even six months to this summer. And that relegation to Ligue 2 has been confirmed despite plenty of transfer activity, notably Ryan Cherki joining Manchester City, Europa League qualification via the league. And Textor also selling his share, his minority share in Crystal Palace. Now, Lyon can and have appealed this verdict. And generally, this is an extremely tough time for professional French football clubs on the whole, given that there's continued uncertainty regarding TV rights money.

7:08So for further context, the DNCG who carry out these winter and summer checks on the budget have ordered all professional clubs. So it doesn't matter whether you're PSG or whether you're a minnow in need, all clubs have been ordered to not budget with any TV rights money. But also, and crucially, no unconfirmed transfer revenue either, which had previously been part of Textor's tactic in the past to sort of maneuver Leon past the DNCG. Now, John Textor, I mentioned earlier, is the face of the ownership of Lyon. But to say that Lyon is sort of John Textor's club would be sort of stretching it a bit far.

7:49Aries is a group, a financial group that aided Textor in the acquisition of Lyon. And they're the most likely source to fill a financial hole, which is somewhere in the region of sort of 70 to 80 million euros per report. And this has the potential to possibly destabilize Textor's position as sort of the figurehead of Lyon, given the current situation within the ownership. And now this pressure, this sudden financial pressure for a large amount of money to be found in a very short space of time in order for Lyon to not only continue to play in Ligue 1, but also to be able to compete in Europe next season, which obviously is going to be a key part of future revenues for the club.

8:34especially given that at this moment in time, there is no TV rights money to be budgeted with and no ability to predict future transfers between now and the end of the summer window. Well done, JJ. You've done an excellent job. I totally get it, which means everybody listening totally gets it. However, Andy, this is chaos is the only way I can describe it, Andy. How about you is there some sympathy for leon from what um you know despite john texas perhaps creative accounting but what what jj is saying is that teams got caught out with the you know chaos of the french tv deals on football is there some sympathy that leon like many other teams were expecting revenue from tv that has never materialized look i think there needs to be a sort of division here.

9:29I think a lot of the reaction in France, even from rival supporters, has been sympathy for Lyon and their supporters. Sympathy for John Texter? Not so much. And if you look about the centre of Lyon, there are all these banners inviting him to leave. Inviting is a polite way of putting it, obviously. Someone sprayed Texter out on the side of the megastore in the centre of Lyon as well. and look, obviously, he hasn't wanted it to go this way but the timing particularly is abysmal because one of the great figures of Lyon's past, one of the most important figures of their history, Bernard Lacombe, who is a former player, second top scorer in Ligue 1 ever, did a lot advising Jean-Michel Olaz to make the club established in Ligue 1 and established in Europe before he passed away at the age of 72 last weekend.

10:31There was a funeral for him this week. And yet that's all been overshadowed by this nonsense, really. And it's funny because in this week where people have been mourning Lacombe and the club or the social media side of the club has been promoting this film on Lacazette, the man, the legend, after he just has left the club for the second time and for good. You know, they sort of remind you, really, of how great this club has been and how far it's fallen in the space of, this guy's only been in charge since the end of 2022. Now, the Jean-Michel Olas thing is interesting because I don't think you can talk about Olas as being separate of this.

11:20As JJ says, one of the iconic figures of modern French football, took over in 1987 and took the club from a yo-yo club into one of the biggest in Europe. But it had gone a bit awry in his last couple of years. But when he and Pathé, the cinema company, the other major shareholders, sold to Textor, they knew who he was and what he was. And they continued and just sold it to him anyway because they wanted the money. So there was meant to be a sort of bridge to the new generation. Jean-Michel Olas was appointed to continue being the president and run the club for the next three years. He got through less than a year before Texter fired him.

12:08And that really has been one of the main problems that John Texter has fired people who are running the club for him, like Laurent Prudhomme went as well. Now there's rumour because he's still very close to Iris. the main lender that he might come back were text or to be bumped from the picture. But, you know, the complete lack of joined up thinking and stability has been the issue here. You know, a lot of clubs are in much worse financial situations than Lyon. Lyon own their own stadium, which a lot of clubs in France do. And it's a huge stadium, which has concerts as well as football. and this has been completely avoidable on every level.

12:52But what Textor has made clear every time he's talked to and about the DNCG is that he simply does not understand how French football runs and he has no interest in understanding how it runs. Now, when this, as JJ says, the administrative relegation, the provisional relegation was handed down in November, he gave a press conference where he sat there and said, well, yeah, I don't think these guys really understand how Wall Street works or understand how the multi-club model works. Why is it their responsibility to know that? It's his responsibility to know how French football works, not the other way around.

13:30And he has never grasped that, and he's never shown any willingness to grasp that. Even when he turned up for this hearing this week and said that an hour before the relegation verdict was handed down, said, everything's going to be fine. We're on top of it. finances are looking great and by the way they're all promises it's not actually figures on the paper it's it's going to be fine well you know he said we will get the money from crystal palace we will get the money from selling these players etc he's been saying he'll sell the palace shares for the best part of a year and they only agreed the deal at the weekend so why would they budget with those figures you know the dncg are right not to to do that he turns up at this hearing with a Botafogo cap on, having got directly off the plane from Los Angeles.

14:18And then when he comes out of the hearing goes, oh yeah, I don't think there are any flights directly back to Philadelphia for the Club World Cup. I might have to find a hotel for the night. Has anyone got any recommendations? No, he didn't say that. It's unbelievable. Did he really say that? It's unbelievable. Actually, something even funnier happened. When Textor went to go into his meeting with the DNCG, some will see it as an omen, and some weren't. He actually had trouble getting through the door. It was the ultimate comedy scene, especially when you know what happened during the meeting and the verdict that was handed down hours afterwards as well.

14:56Andy makes a point that I can't imagine anybody would all be gobsmacked. The idea of John Texter saying that he doesn't understand the way, or at least the French don't understand the way business, football business works. There was a precedent to this, wasn't there, JJ, that Bordeaux got relegated. DNCG have got the power, they've got the teeth to relegate teams. How on earth could John Texler have not looked at that and thought this could happen to us? Yeah, absolutely. You know, the Bordeaux example is very, very pertinent right now because Bordeaux, another really historic French club, who last summer were essentially put out of their professional existence, still sort of clawing their way back up through the French footballing pyramid.

15:47Funnily enough, of all the clubs to go in front of the DNCG this past week, Bordeaux seems to have been the most untroubled under Gerard Lopez, coming out with just a very simple kind of salary cap for the coming season in the fourth tier of French football. But that is a very, very relevant example. You know, Bordeaux, you know, one of the most historic French clubs up there, along with the likes of Lyon, Marseille, PSG, you know, slogging it out in the fourth tier of French football for a second consecutive season. No professional status, which means no ability, you know, to continue to foster talent in the way that they have through their youth academy over the years.

16:24One very, very key difference that I would mention and bring up now, because I was thinking it when Andy was talking on the topic. Leon is a very particular club, not only because it owns its own stadium, but also because it's a publicly listed company. You can buy shares in the club. So the financials have to be even more transparent with a rare club like Leon than they do anywhere else. And to the point about the DNCG, the DNCG is, in my opinion, is something that works very well in theory. However, for a number of years now, not just recently, but probably over the best part of at least a decade, I think the reality of the way that the DNCG works has needed to change.

17:11I'm not saying that I have sympathy with what Textor has been saying. And I do think that at times he has needed to really radically address the way that he's spoken publicly about and to people, sort of indirectly addressing them via these impromptu press conferences and stuff like that. But it is a very outdated method of governing the clubs financially. And it results every year, this summer, no exception, in an absolute bloodbath. It's carnage with these clubs when they're trying to make ends meet, especially with no TV rights money, especially without being able to budget for sales that they intended to make during this current transfer period.

17:53And I do think that the possibility of Lyon following the same path that Bordeaux have trodden in the years before them, I don't think anybody can rule that out from happening right now. Is that in the best interest of French football? Of course it's not. And I think the real sort of reality of the situation is if the DNCG carried out their job, their task to the letter of the law, there wouldn't be enough professional French football clubs in healthy enough financial positions at the moment for there to be one professional division, let alone two professional divisions in France. yeah I think that's a great point and it's I guess the thing we have to say is this is not definitive at the moment because as JJ said Leon have got a right to appeal they find out the reasons for the decision on Friday and from there they've got a week to register their appeal include additional financing documents all that sort of stuff Looking for a leg to stand on.

19:02Yeah, and look, there's precedent for this before. So for those who are slightly longer in the tooth, you might remember that at the start of 2003-2004 season, Monaco were relegated from the top flight. That was reversed on appeal, and they ended up getting to the Champions League final and nearly winning the title that year after the Monogasque royal family poured a little bit in. now I think the issue with Leon is not even that they're too big to fail it's that too many people with a lot of money stand to lose a lot if they do fail and that's where I think RS the lender step in I mean we've seen it before at Milan when things weren't running right Elliot inherited the club instead of getting their debt paid and I wonder if It's felt for a while, for months, as if this would happen with Textor.

20:01Essentially, Textor in a football context is a little bit like Trump. You know it's not going to last forever. It's how much damage he can do before they finally get rid of him, really, is the question. Now, I guess it's come about because of this verdict a little bit sooner than we might have expected. So the word is that Textor might step aside from the appeals process, which is really good because he can't add up. and that someone else will take the helm here, probably appointed by Aris. And as JJ says, maybe that turns into a permanent thing. Maybe this is the beginning of the end for John Textor.

20:39But if Textor was in charge of the appeal, they're done. They've got absolutely no chance of getting through this. And really, there's everything there for it to run correctly. But in terms of him not grasping the basics, one of the things that's come out of the hearing is the DNCG want to see the required money deposited in Leon's account. And he's been showing them the Eagle Football Group account. So saying, okay, we've got this much money in the Eagle account. But they're like, well, that could be Botafogo's money. That could be Daring Brussels, as they're now called, money. It could be Crystal Palace's money because they're still owned 40 % until this sale goes through.

21:28So really, these are basics. And if we're able to sit here and say, right, these are the bases that they need to cover and Textor's not grasped that, clearly, I mean, the Bad Gun, the ultras group of Lyon, put out this statement and one of the key lines in that was Texter is not the man for the situation he never was and he never will be and I think that's fair and I think the point that JJ makes about Bordeaux even though there are crucial differences between Bordeaux and Lyon is really worth pointing out because these guys and Gerard Lopez at Bordeaux is exactly the same do not learn their lesson now okay Bordeaux might have had a stay of execution They're still in amateur football in the fourth tier, by the way, which is a disaster for a club of that size and didn't get promoted last season.

22:21One of his other clubs, Bovista, has just been administratively relegated out of professional football as well to the third tier in Portugal, having not paid their bills and their players for months. The funny thing about Andy bringing that up is it's actually really, really relevant to this because essentially, if I understood it correctly, and admittedly, my Portuguese written and spoken is not nearly as strong as Andy's, is that the money didn't arrive at Boa Vista in time, yet the money was in Bordeaux's accounts earlier this week. So the suggestion is that the money that Gerard Lopez had and showed in order to keep Bordeaux afloat is the money that didn't arrive in time for Boa Vista to be kept afloat.

23:08So that is also something that I guess kind of illustrates this juggling act or the spinning of financial plates, we could say, that the tech store is trying to do via Eagle Holding Group at the moment. Yet the DNCG, because it is specifically for the purpose of governing the finances of French football clubs, sees through that and basically doesn't feel that it's a credible explanation each time that Textor comes to see them. And something else that's really important to bear in mind with these hearings, these winter and summer hearings regarding the budget, is a lot of it is built upon sort of mutual respect and trust.

23:48And there is absolutely zero of that when John Textor goes in front of the DNCG. It's constant sort of sniping at them in public. And it's been made very clear that the DNCG, certainly not at this moment in time, is not going to be going anywhere. So instead of making the best of what John Textor considers to be a bad situation, he's inflamed the situation further. And it might be that Leon's only way now of navigating the DNCG is with somebody who can coolly and calmly discuss exactly what's needed. You provide the explanations and the evidence of that money being in Leon's accounts. And the reason why so many people are so vocal about this publicly as well, because it adds further important context for people listening.

24:39Although it comes one year later, the accounts are made public via the LFP and via the DNCG. So anybody out there who wants to consult Leon's finances since John Textor stepped up to the helm can do that. And they see those numbers, you know, and they look at the situation more broadly at the club and what's happened since then, not forgetting as well the fact that the super successful women's club was also sold off. And, you know, it feels like they see the writing on the wall and they see themselves following, you know, on from a Bordeaux, but also from a number of these other historic French clubs who have either, you know, had a very close brush, you know, with fading into obscurity or being pushed, you know, completely down to the bottom of the French footballing pyramid to a point where they essentially have to start again.

25:31just very quickly the appeal notwithstanding who stands to benefit if Lyon is relegated talking of historic clubs it would be Reims who were in the first two European Cup finals so they were relegated in the playoff with with Mets now yeah it will be them who take their place the thing is in terms of uncertainty and planning for the future obviously having got relegated they've already sold a couple of players they can't get them back can they and they've budgeted half of what they probably would have done exactly, they've budgeted for Ligue 2, so presumably they'll have to go back through the DNCG to make sure they've got a Ligue 1 budget

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29:31It's a different kind of challenge that Atletico faced now after being the first major team, if we put it like that, one of the big European teams at the very least, to be knocked out of the Club World Cup. They argue that, hang on a second, it wasn't quite that straightforward, but nevertheless, they were knocked out of the Club World Cup even before the knockout stages. Yeah, the first European team to go. And obviously, we don't want to go back over Botafogo again, but they did beat Botafogo on the final day, but it wasn't enough. And really, it all went back to that opening game against PSG, where they really lost their heads in what was an incredibly hot day, by the way.

30:18One that was out at the Rose Bowl in Pasadena, kicked off at midday, absolutely roasting. And Marcos Llorente very famously said to us afterwards that I couldn't feel my toes. In fact, I couldn't feel my toenails by the end of it. It was that hot. Marquinhos, the captain of PSG, replied, well, it tends to be a lot less comfortable when you're chasing after the ball, which is a fair point. But look, I think really what happened to them is the fact that they really lost the thread on that first game, built up the goal difference issue that they couldn't get over against Botafogo. So they beat Seattle Sounders, they beat Botafogo, as Diego Simeone pointed out at the end.

31:03You know, we ended up with the same amount of points as the champions of South America and the champions of Europe. And we still didn't get through. But I think a lot of people will have limited sympathy for Atletico because not only did they spend the whole time and they were in the States whining about the match officials. And yeah, they had a couple of questionable decisions, I think it's fair to say. But it's a shirking of responsibility to talk about the officials, I think. And I guess the thing is, as well as it being disappointing for them, the club have been very big on the Club World Cup being a big deal for them.

31:44Now, remember, in terms of feeling the need to generate large swathes of extra cash, Atletico are up there with Barcelona and Real Madrid in Spain because, of course, they were the proponents of the Super League when we go back a couple of years. So they've been looking for a new way to create revenue. Enrique Sedefo, the president, who we assume is going to sell the club in a couple of years, and so wants to fatten the calf a little bit. He's spoken about how this was a massive tournament for them. they built this little, as PSG had their sort of pop-up PSG house in Hollywood, just down the road, there was Casa Atleti, as we talked about in the three-part documentary for OTC I did out in LA.

32:32So that was massively important in terms of getting out there and pressing the flesh and all the rest of it. And all of a sudden, it's over. They can't do any more promotion. And especially as they're in LA, somewhere where there's a huge Hispanic population, where there's a huge Hispanic population supporting soccer and supporting football, for them to have this opportunity to get the word out and then it all to be over really quickly is a real blow to them. Let's not forget that huge Hispanic population. Many people amongst that population were on the streets demonstrating right on Atleti's doorstep.

33:15They were located bang in the middle of the hood, if you like. Could they use that as an argument as to why they weren't quite themselves? Well, in terms of them not getting a decent night's sleep because of sirens and all the rest of it, I mean, it's not ideal, I suppose. And you could say it's different from PSG route at Newport Beach, living their best life and all the rest of it. So I think the decision to go downtown anyway was a bit of a weird one before they even got to that particular situation, which is obviously completely out of their control. Look, they will say because of that, because of the heat, because of refereeing decisions.

34:02It's the perfect storm. Everything went against them. But I mean, come on, really? Everyone has difficulties in a tournament situation and they've just not really dealt with it. And by the way, I should say that the community there were demonstrating against Donald Trump's immigration policies. But JJ, have Atletico. For me, it was one of those teams that always came across is quite tenacious in tournaments. You know, they don't get knocked out in the group stages. Have they lost some of that shine ahead of a proposed sale that Andy alluded to? Have they lost some of that shine, do you think? It's really funny because I feel like Atleti are one of the clubs, though, or one of the teams that I get to speak about the most when I come on this show.

34:47And I feel like we've discussed it a number of times in the past where it feels like it's coming towards the end of Diego Simeone's time with the club and then somehow he finds a new lease of life. And for a while, all of those doubts about the erosion of the Atleti that he created get sort of put to one side and on the back burner. But it does feel like, especially around this tournament, it's not just some of the reasons that Andy mentioned. I noticed sort of in the build-up to the PSG game and after it as well, there was Simeone sniping in the press about how PSG's squad is much better equipped in terms of the quality and strength and depth compared to Atleti's.

35:27And it just feels now like there's any and every kind of excuse possible being put forward to detract or deflect away from what I feel is probably the main thing that's holding them back at the moment. And that is a real frank consideration and discussion as to whether Atleti and Diego Simeone have gone as far as they possibly can together. I know it's one of the most longstanding relationships between a manager and club in European football. And there's a lot to respect about that, especially when you look at what they've achieved over the years. But it has felt over the best part of the last five to 10 years that things have gone a bit stale with the exception of a couple of moments.

36:08And that there is maybe a stronger argument with every passing season that maybe some fresh ideas might actually be the thing that reinvigorates Atleti and maybe makes them potentially more attractive to a possible new buyer. Because as much as Simeone is and will forever be an Atleti legend, there comes a time where all stories between legends, whether it's a player, whether it's a coach in the club, must come to an end. And it also feels like in terms of Simeone's potential career after Atleti, whether that's at international level, whether that's at club level, that his options have also stagnated over the last couple of years because he's no longer being linked with the big European posts when they become available, which he was a couple of years ago, especially after Atleti's most recent La Liga triumph.

37:01So it does feel now that there is major limited sympathy, I think, for Atleti, given that Simeone continues to try and offer up every single possible alternative topic, in a negative way, rather than sort of assessing his own role in the potential deterioration of Atleti's situation and ability to compete? The Simioni question is a fascinating one, I think. I mean, it's a weird thing to say, given that he's been in charge for 13 years come this Christmas. But I think it's almost too soon to say if he's had his time because they had this massive squad makeover last summer, the first time that he's had decent money thrown at it for ages.

37:51And by the way, that's one of the reasons that he's still there because he kept their heads above water. He kept them qualifying for the Champions League. So financially, he kept them in good shape while they weren't really investing anything in the team. So that's why he's valuable. But I think really because last season started really well, I think the way it ended particularly after they went out of the Champions League to Real Madrid it made people think that they should have ended up with more than they actually did because they could have ended up with more than they actually did I think if they'd have maintained their form in the first half of the season that they were La Liga title contenders they could have got there it's not about playing the best football, it's about getting the best results if you want to win the league they were a contender for probably two thirds of the season the way they went out of the Champions League absolutely broke them and I think they've really struggled to recover emotionally from that.

38:51In terms of what a post-Simeone Atletico would look like, I think the club are scared of that. And I can understand why they're scared of that because really they were not a contender before he took over and now they've gone into a different dimension. new stadium always qualifying for the Champions League running a much higher wage bill accordingly you know if they're not in the elite of European clubs they're sort of they're definitely jostling with the elite of European clubs they're always the team that nobody wants to face in a tournament yeah and that's part of it as well I mean look we've had this discussion before as JJ says for years about does he actually develop players or does he try and make them into what he wants them to be.

39:41I think he's got gradually a bit better like that over the years, even though he does have, you know, you look at someone like Conor Gallagher, for example, who you think is an instant Diego Simeone favourite. You know, I think they've been a little bit more, they've been a little bit more cosmopolitan as time goes by, but only a little bit more. I just think the end of this season is not the best time to judge because they've had that very difficult end to the season, although they didn't manage to assure the minimum and get themselves into the top three. But I think if it's a difficult thing for the club going out of this early stage, for the players, and for Simeone, it's probably a bit of a godsend, to be honest, to go back, to put a line under the season, to just take a deep breath and assess what's happened over the last little while.

40:36I mean this climate of complaining and making excuses when does it happen? It's when you're tired isn't it? And like if you look at the reality of it, as JJ says like you talk about the squad depth, they're able to bring on one of the top scorers in La Liga Alex Sorlot in the first game and in the final game they're able to bring on Antoine Griezmann I mean who's complaining about that? Okay PSG are one of one in terms of what they've got but you know you look at PSG and their squad difficulties, they started the tournament with no Dembele, no Barclay. They rest a few when they get to Botafogo because they simply have to because the squad's out on his feet.

41:16But it is really a case of where you are and how you're feeling. Because where PSG are, where they're feeling, I know this discussion about Atletico and not PSG, but they're in the same group, so I think it's worthwhile for context. They are feeling good and they are feeling positive. therefore there aren't excuses Atletico are feeling knackered therefore there are lots of excuses and I think that's why they need removing from this for a bit even if there are commercial concerns and you know this is a huge part of the Club World Cup of course in terms of the team and in terms of the direction in which they're going they're going to do stuff in the transfer window again this summer Johnny Cardoso is going to come over from Betis in the near future I don't think there's anything to panic about, especially with Real Madrid facing more of a rebuild than anyone expected and Barcelona being Barcelona and the potential for the financial bottom falling out of it at some point not being that far away.

42:17Of course Simeone could have gone with the caveat that we weren't the only big team from Europe to be knocked out at this stage in fact the champions of Europe once upon a time, Porto, also exited, I don't know whether that's an excuse worth going for JJ or otherwise, but you know, Porto as well, I've got questions to be answered now on a thought. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sure Andy's probably better place to sort of go into the weeds, but you know, it does also feel like it's, you know, a majorly sort of transitional period for them, especially at a time where it kind of feels now that Benfica are kind of establishing themselves as sort of the prominent force in sort of Portuguese football, especially when you sort of see, you know, how it's represented on the continental stage.

43:03And I think, again, we see that in the Club World Cup with Benfica marching on. I don't know if it's necessarily something to console Atleti with, but I do think that there are some European clubs, and Porto potentially one of them, who might feel that with all due respect to them, They were kind of there to make up the numbers a little bit, that they're not necessarily the name that a lot of people are going to be turning up to see stateside. And that it was just essentially a question of getting through as many games as possible, going as far as possible for as big a check as possible before really knuckling down and getting stuck into their summer when they start overhauling the squad and trying to reassert their dominance domestically.

43:53but also trying to get themselves back into the reckoning on the European scene as well. So I would say that there's probably a little bit of consolation for Atleti in the fact that they're not the only sort of big name team going out. And I'm sure that there'll be a number of other big name teams going out, but it just feels like I think for many teams, including those who are advancing, that the timing of this competition, and it might regulate itself in the future when And it becomes, in theory, something that gets played every four years. It just feels like it's too much football at this moment in time for everybody.

44:31So I think that the disappointment that any teams feel going out early in this competition is probably cushioned by the fact that, like Andy said, to many people, notably the players, but also the staff, physically and mentally after a long and taxing season, especially one that hasn't lived up to pre-season hopes, You know, it will feel like a godsend. Yeah, I think the disappointment is really with the clubs rather than the teams on many occasions still. I mean, with Porto, I mean, they went out of a much easier group than Atletico. I mean, really, it was the defeat into Miami that killed them.

45:08But they were given the runaround by Palmeiras in the first game, who I thought were much better than them. But medium term, I think it's probably done them a bit of a favour. because if last season finished where it is at the end of the domestic season, they go back to the summer. Martina Anselmi, the coach who was billed as the Argentinian Amorim when he came in, divided opinion a lot last season, particularly with the style of play which a lot of the players didn't really seem to get. And if last season had just finished as it normally does, it would have come back for pre-season training, it would have gone back into the season, they would have sacked him in October.

45:47but as it happens, they're going to sack him now. They're coming to an agreement on his payoff, really. That's the only thing that's stopping him leaving now. But in that sense, the Club World Cup has done them a little bit of a favour because they've gone out there, they've made a ton of money, which will help to pay him off, by the way, and now they can start afresh for next season rather than it lingering into next season and them having a fire room in autumn and really next season being a bit of a rite-on.

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48:24In terms of the Club World Cup, the team that's doing well from Portugal is Benfica. And they might be the team that nobody else wants to face now because of what they did to Bayern Munich. And Chelsea have got to face them. Can lightning strike at the same club twice in that respect, JJ? I mean, I definitely think that it's possible. I mean, I think an element of this as well, you know, we're talking about sort of Angel Di Maria being timeless. We've said it so many times in the past in the show, but it's also created this really kind of odd dynamic. And I know Andy was riffing on it, so I'll bring him in in a minute or tee him up for it.

49:04But it's one of the more fascinating elements of this Club World Cup that you've got a handful of players who are playing with their soon-to-be ex-club when their departure has already been announced. And in some cases, in Di Maria's case, we already know his future destination. So it's almost a little bit like when contracts were temporarily extended during COVID for the shortened knockout phase of the Champions League in 2020, which was incidentally as well hosted in Portugal. and yeah it's just it's created this fascinating dynamic where you would you could maybe understand a little bit if Di Maria had kind of downed tools and and wasn't performing at his usual level but it's you know it seems like it's the opposite right now in terms of the performances that he's putting out there but you know there's a couple of other interesting scenarios as well you know we mentioned Bayern Munich you've got Leroy Sané as well like Andy mentioned uh um before coming into the show, like having already been unveiled by Galatasaray.

50:04I just, for me, I find it's one of the more mind-boggling scenarios that this new format tournament has managed to create. Well, I sort of almost expected Leroy Zanet to come on the pitch in a Bayern shirt and Galatasaray shorts. It felt a bit like that, didn't it? Can you imagine what it's doing to spectators? You know, football fans are watching this. Hang on. Who do you play for? Yeah, there is a little bit of that. position defence. Hang on, are you supposed to be here? For what it's worth though, I'm definitely not against an Angel Di Maria victory lap. Look, I want to go back to JJ in a minute and talk about what a player he has been in European football because I feel in the QSI era, he's one of the underrated superstars of PSG.

50:50He's so good. Contribution-wise, top three, must be, I think. Yeah. Yeah, right. There we go, from the horse's mouth. I mean, what a player. what a player and like a player who really deserves I think this this little farewell tour even if it's a mini one and hopefully going on a little bit longer because as you say Benfica doing really well I mean it's funny in the season where Barcelona finally did away with their Bayern hoodoo Benfica have now done the same they've never beaten Bayern before so for them to to go and do that was fantastic and I thought they played really really well in this game.

51:31Now, really, everything that Benfica has done has come from that opening game against Boca, where they were 2-0 down, they came back, despite the fact they were down to 10. And the bit that really got me, and one of the images of this tournament, is where Nicholas Otamendi equalizes against Boca. And then he just goes up and sort of confronts the Boca fans afterwards. and it's like wow only a man with a Walter White tattoo could do that which I really enjoyed but I think really has he really got one Walter White he does oh my goodness it goes to the heart of something I think in that when we talk about the fact that there's this slight disconnect in the club world cup between let's not talk about the clubs for a minute because we know the clubs will want it because it's loads of money but with the players the European players who are like oh my god is this season never going to end and like brazilian and argentinian players and particularly brazilian players are looking at it thinking right okay we've got a chance to bloody the noses of these guys that we never get to play these europeans who think that football is all about them and we're going to show them what football is about we're going to show them the passion of football we're going to bring the fans and the fans are going to bring the noise and this is a big deal to us and of course the club world cup even in its previous format was It's a big deal to the South American sides.

52:58But this expanded tournament, and I spoke to some Mexican journalists about it, and not for a second are thinking about the extra miles on the players or any of that sort of stuff. They're like, we get to take these guys on who we never get to confront. And I think that if we talk about that disconnect, who are the sort of team who bridge that gap? Benfica are the obvious one. And Porto, to a lesser extent, I suppose, well, certainly to a lesser extent, now they're not in it anymore. But the fact is that Benfica are almost the joint between Europe and South America because their recruitment policy is so strongly South American.

53:40We know the connect already that Portugal has with Brazil in terms of immigration, labor, all those sort of things. and so I think the fact that Otamendi Di Maria turn out to be key guys is no sort of surprise at all and that Otamendi equaliser not just bringing them back into the competition but the whole feel of that game Bocca Benfica was the first I guess we talked about it with DC last week it was the first game of this club world cup where you could feel the hairs on the back of your neck stand up and you thought yeah this is it forget all the financial nonsense for a minute forget the fact that this is a cash grab and a power grab exactly yeah exactly it is and you think okay right i can see why this tournament is is here now and benfica have gone forward with that a little bit and i do wonder if if a big part of it is to do with the fact that they have such a a huge south american influence traditionally and currently?

54:45Look, this has been an amazing conversation and I'm glad that we paid, you know, an adequate tribute to Angel Di Maria as well, who many of our listeners will have been familiar with when he played briefly, but nevertheless in the Premier League. I mean, I think if we're talking adequate, we probably need to do a separate pod for Di Maria. Well, let's do it. We'll come back to that. I'm ready. I'm ready. But it is time to recap on last week's Game of the Week on OTC. Let me remind you, Andy, Andy, you went for Bayern Munich. And by the way, for those who don't know, every week we ask iExperts to predict a, well, to recommend a game of the week.

55:21And you'll hear that tomorrow on Ask OTC. You'll hear what their predictions are for this weekend. But Andy, last weekend, you went for Bayern versus Bocca. Not surprisingly, and you've told us all about that. Yeah, it was pretty good, I thought. I mean, only 2-1 to Bayern in the end. I thought their superiority was greater than 2-1 suggested. But the way Bocca came back into it in the second half was pretty impressive. Yeah, and just having Bocca at the tournament was fantastic. I mean, look, just a bit of a spoiler alert, but every game I'll be picking during this Club World Cup will have a South American team in it until it's not possible to pick a South American team in it anymore.

56:04Well, they're the exciting ones to a certain extent. JJ, how are you doing a David Cartilage impression? Because you picked, well, he did, picked a stinker of a match last week, River Plate versus Monterey. And guess what? Guess how it ended? Yeah, absolutely. Not much to thank DC for there. But to be honest, though, I am glad that he picked up on both River Plate and Monterey. I was really happy to see Rayaldas advancing through in the group, having beaten Red Diamonds in the final round of games. Obviously, now that we know that River Plate as well fell short and finished third after losing to Inter in the final game, even if this was a bit of an anti-climax after DC had really bigged it up, it does give me the chance to sort of add one final sort of observation, I guess, to what's been a great discussion today about the Club World Cup.

56:58And I think something else that's really maybe underrated in this is it kind of feels like over the last couple of years, And I know it's a bit of a controversial topic that South American football has become a lot more sort of physical. And obviously the kind of shithousery element that goes into it is elevated. And it feels like that really comes across in some of these games at the Club World Cup. So being able to talk about the likes of Boca Juniors and River Plate, even if it's not necessarily for what's happened on the pitch with River Plate in this case, What we've seen in the stands and the color and the passion that especially the likes of Boko fans have brought and some of the fantastic scenes with them interacting with other different supporter groups has been really, really fascinating.

57:43And for me as somebody who, from a distance, likes to keep an eye on stuff like the Mexican League and the Japanese League as well, seeing these teams mesh and go up against each other, it has been enjoyable in certain respects in terms of broadening your understanding and knowledge of some of these teams. So as much as the goalless draw between River Plate and Monterey was a bit disappointing, ultimately I think the experience has been hugely enriching. Yeah, just to reiterate, nil, nil. It may be the last time anybody picks River Plate versus Monterey as a Game of the Week recommendation. It's all about what's going on in the stands, not on the pitch.

58:29Sure, sure. the pitch but join us again tomorrow where we'll be making our latest selections for game of the week to pick out games that you can watch this weekend and of course telling you what you should eat with it that's crucial thank you for listening to On the Continent and make sure you join us again tomorrow for Ask OTC where we'll be answering all of your questions about the latest news from the world of European football and do make sure to subscribe in your podcast app so that you never miss an episode thanks for listening to this episode of On The Continent. For more news, opinion and analysis from across European football, then make sure to subscribe to OTC in your podcast app so you never miss an episode.

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