Summer Series: Hate your rivals (feat. Jamie Carragher)

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3:37Gianni Infantino is begging Neil not to make him redundant and is Bruno Gimoresh ever going to sign for Arsenal? Welcome to the Football Ramble, it's Tuesday 4th of August, I'm Luke Moore, I'm Jim Campbell and I'm Jamie Carringer.

4:00Yeah, welcome to the Football Ramble, we've made a big summer signing of our own but a temporary loan, Jamie. me yes very well I still want to be able to say I'm a one club man exactly yeah and you won't get in trouble with your overlap friends for coming to see us well I haven't told them so we'll see how it goes hopefully I'm not already all over mail online no it's down to us now you shouldn't have told us we had that power exactly exactly but you're welcome thanks for coming in as part of our summer series we had Adam Cleary last week he's a football tactical guy he's brilliant yeah follow him on his social media yeah good and then we've got um I think we've got some I don't have a couple of people coming up, but you're the main one.

4:35Yeah. You're the main event. All the best ones. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I thought we'd start with this Bruno Gimres chat because Arsenal have now had a£70 million opening bid for Bruno Gimres rejected by Newcastle. Gimres is in Spain with Newcastle for their pre-season training camp in Lemanga. Matthias Jasler is coaching Newcastle at the moment without being the official head coach. I hope he's getting paid. Yeah. Get there early for that. Certainly invoice. Yeah, definitely invoice. But I mean, we've got an Arsenal fan in gym here we've got you here Jamie what I mean what do you guys make of this so far I think it's interesting actually because I think when I look at what Arsenal are trying to do in the summer it's it's we're gonna we're gonna win the league again yeah we're gonna go for the Champions League next season it's very much like we're gonna try and dominate in the next sort of year or two and unfortunately I think my club had that idea last season didn't quite work really go to plan but Bruno is one of those players he almost feels like he was the number one for Newcastle fans when you think of all those signings that Eddie Howe brought in and all those players who've now left it felt to me like he was the one who sort of really pulled on the heartstrings of the Newcastle fans I was always more of a Tonali man than Bruno I just thought Tonali had a lot more pace about him and could get about the pitch I used to look at Bruno and be not quite sure I thought he was a good player but I thought, can he run?

5:56you know when I watch him play and people say he gets fouled and he felt like he got fouled a lot and he slowed the game down a lot and things like that but their record with him and without him is stark there's a massive difference it's really big he gets important goals doesn't he that's what it feels to me and he can make a lot of line breaking passes as well and to me isn't it not just a case of talking about what you're saying and asking about trying to really keep their foot on the throat it's the idea that they need to read the pressure on Declan Rice right he's going to be running to the ground they've just moved on Christian Norgard right as well and then he played Zubemendi an awful lot last season as well, didn't he?

6:29He felt like he had to rely on him. I was going to say that to you, you know better. You think it's the end for Zubemendi there in terms of being what he was supposed to be when he was brought in. He was supposed to come in and be this controller. I don't see anyone ever going to get that place back. I think there's certainly an argument that this makes him a rotational player but my feeling is that, because you know what Mikel Arteta is like when he sees something in another team that works, he sort of obsesses about it. I think he wants to rotate that midfield in the way that PSG do so that nobody comes near to the minutes that he and Declan Rice had last season.

7:02Because, you know, as brilliant as Declan Rice is, with the ground he covers, I think if he continues having seasons like this, especially with playing for England as well, he'll be done by 30, surely. So I think part of it is kind of bringing in really, really top-level options in every kind of combination of player that you have. so yeah I don't think Zubamendi will certainly be the sort of first name on the team sheet that he was when he came in but I suspect that the idea is that other than Declan Rice nobody is because I think that's the way to really juice the squad I think with managers you've got to have a lot of courage to rotate and not play your best players and I don't think Arteta's ever shown that yet that's not criticism so it's okay having the idea but when it comes to it and you think and like every game you go into you want to win and you think we need to win and Declan Rice is 100 % fit but you want to rotate and it's it's still that thing in your gut where you think no I'm still playing and I think Arteta does that more than anybody when he gets to the game and he goes no I'm still playing Saka I'm still playing him I'm still playing him so no matter what the idea is it's still having the courage to do it at the time and I still think I think Arteta will find that difficult really when it actually still comes to it to think, why am I going to go into this game with a team weaker than another one that I could pick?

8:26And the example of that, Norgard would be a good example of that because Norgard comes in 31, 32, whatever he is now, hugely experienced, like several years in the Premier League, played all the time. Yeah, Brentford's captain played 100 minutes in the Premier League last season. It was hardly ever used. And I know it's fine because Arsdale ultimately won the league, which was their big challenge. But it was weird that he was insisting on relying on those players over and over again. Do you think it might be, It might be different because they've won the league now. You had to win the league. You had to get that done.

8:54Get the monkey off the bat. Yeah, they had to. Maybe, to be fair to Arteta, it might be a little bit different. I also think it's the circumstances of the way Arsenal won the league and the Champions League are factors here as well. I think part of the reason that Arteta wants to go big is because as brilliant as an Arsenal fan as it was to win the league, it was a very, very tense experience. And as we saw the three second place finishes, it's like you can't look at that team and argue that there's not room for improvement in certain places. and also with the Champions League run to the final, it was a kind run.

9:21They were the favourites in every game up until the final. So I think he's looking at that and going, let's not rest on any laurels here. Let's not kind of take for granted the position we're in now. Let's add some big beasts to this. In terms of playing style as well, I think Gimaraes is an opportunity to make the league's most beloved team even more popular. It would be great league-wide for him running around, elbows out, getting stuck in. Did you get a lot of stick from Arsenal fans last season? because it felt like Arsenal, weirdly enough, even though it was Arsenal against Man City, Man City had this kind of Petro State club who had all these charges hanging over their head.

9:58I think a lot of Arsenal fans felt like, why are you against us rather than City? Not you personally, but just pundits generally. Do you feel any of that feedback as well? Yeah, I get that a lot from Arsenal and Chelsea supporters for whatever reason. I actually wanted Arsenal to probably win the league at a certain stage. But there is part here then, you can't help it, it's only human nature, where when you're getting so much stick off people, you go, of course. Fuck off. I wouldn't mind a little City one here just to see the fallout from it. But to be honest, I think it's, in my position in terms of talking about teams in the football, what are we going to keep saying about City?

10:36What are we going to keep saying the same thing about that? And it becomes boring and there's nothing new to say. So, listen, it was good for the league. Did I want them to win the Champions League? Absolutely not. I was in that stadium. No, I was delighted when Gabriel put that over the bar. And that's just from the fact that I never want to see English teams not do well in Europe. That's wrong. I was happy to see Villa win. I was happy to see Palace win. Is it because you're a European football nerd? Yeah. I don't want teams to challenge Liverpool in terms of European clubs. Oh, okay, right.

11:08Sure, fine, okay. I feel the same. There's this kind of old kind of pub chat mantra that you should support an English team in Europe. I just think it's nonsense. absolute nonsense absolute rubbish listen when you're a football fan probably for most fans the majority of you joy comes from seeing other teams lose that's when you support Portsmouth yeah we're probably lucky that you know our joy probably comes 50 % from seeing our teams win because we win most weeks but seeing big teams lose your arrival in a final or something like that it is just finishing up on the Gimresh stuff just quickly so do we think he's going to go we think it's going to happen right?

11:46Yeah that's going to happen and you think it improves them even though what you said about Guimaraes earlier you think it improves yeah he's a good player it would be interesting to see whether I think there's been a lot of talk as well does Guimaraes play the holding role does Declan Mares still play as that sort of box to box midfield player does it switch because at the end of last season Declan seemed like he dropped back into that Zubamendi role and obviously Miles was you know the left foot I thought that was a lovely balance as well you go back to that sort of Petit Vieira thing with the left foot and the right foot.

12:18And I'm still not 100 % convinced what Declan Rice is better in terms of box-to-box or the sit-in-sit midfield draw because I think when Zubomendi went out the team, and I think Declan, especially away in Atletico Madrid, I thought he was fantastic. Not breaking things up, getting on the board, you know, running the game. I thought he was levels above what Zubomendi was doing for most of the season when he was in that position. I think it's quite telling that he reverted to that position at the end of the season, right? Proper business end where Arteta knows there's very little margin for error.

12:49Rice is the guy in that moment to, you know, take charge of the midfield and be the grown-up there. And if that's who he is when the chips are down, right? Surely that's what his best position always is. That's how I felt about it. I think Arsenal are way more secure with him at the base. Yeah, it feels to me like it's going to happen. It feels to me, you know, usually players get their way, don't they? I mean, he's told Newcastle he wants to go. What it means for the Newcastle project itself is probably a little bit, it's obviously a different question. I'd be greatly concerned if I was a Newcastle United fan now the players not just the players they've lost but the players they've missed out on as well it feels to me a lot like you've got players representatives going to Newcastle and obviously the money's there but they're not being sold on the project if you look at Manzambi going to Aston Villa instead one or two other players they've missed out on Eddie Howe now leaving this Yaisal kid is really highly rated I mean he only left the previous job because he was openly talking to other clubs he's delivered in Saudi Arabia before whatever that means, but he has delivered in quite a big way.

13:44He's quite a highly rated young coach. So it may be fine, but it feels like the project's massively run out of steam, right? No, the project's finished as in... You think it's totally finished? Not totally finished. What happens is, and I've seen this with my own club and you'll probably go back to Wenger's time at Arsenal, what people are saying Eddie Howe's left because of, you know, the people have been sold. These players were always getting sold this summer. Right. The project with Eddie Howe had finished. It ran its course as in they couldn't do anymore. the most it could do was win a domestic cup and qualify for the Champions League and they'd done that and then the problem you have and this goes back to my time at Liverpool under Rafa Benitez with Torres, Mascherano, Alonso is when you've got players your best players they're better than what the club can do so if Newcastle don't get in the Champions League they've got Champions League players so them players are going to leave so Newcastle finished where did they finish?

14:4010th, 12th? right down there Okay, so then players are going to leave because they're too good that they should be playing for teams in the Champions League or teams challenging for the league. So what you've got to do then as a club is get the most money you can get for them. And that's what they did because they're not going to be happy staying there. I was frustrated at Liverpool when with Rafa Benitez, we got close to, we got into Champions League semis and finals and where we almost won the league. But once we dropped off, we had one bad season. Everyone just went. And I was frustrated at the time, but the more I look at it I get it they're not from Liverpool Mascherano Torres it's a bit like I've got one career and I can play for Barcelona I can play for Real Madrid I can do this I'm not waiting round for Liverpool to go again so Newcastle on the back of last season need to go again in terms of building up to qualify for Europe then maybe in two years get to the Champions League these players can't wait for that and it was the same with Wenger when they were selling all the players to Man City those players were good enough to play for teams winning the league they're not going to wait for you as a club it's not happening so I've got no problem with them leaving I think Newcastle have actually done well get top dollar for the players and you have to start again unfortunately but that's only half the story though Jamie isn't it because they have to attract players to replace them and they've missed out on so many targets oh of course and that's a problem but my point being is if you go back to the start of Eddie Howe what are those players we're talking about they were good players but he made them great players so Gamaras comes in for 40 million I think from Lyon they get Gordon from Everton Isak comes in from Real Sociedad So they're almost like The club there And then they want to Make that job to the Champions League So they've got to go back To sort of getting those people That an Arsenal Or a Liverpool Or a United Or a City don't want Or don't think are quite good enough And make them better That was the skill of Eddie Howe Getting those players That those are the big clubs But their ambition is to be At that top table though It's not happening Yeah It's not happening Well you don't think generally It's possible Or it's not possible for them It can't happen And the reason it can't happen is Because where we are right now is different to where we were with City and Chelsea.

16:41The rules are different. Yeah, sure. So it's about the PSR and all that type of stuff. And the only way Newcastle can win a Premier League or go close in a Champions League is by blowing top teams out the water. So that's what City and Chelsea did. They would say, OK, this player, Man United and Liverpool are in for them. We'll offer you another 100 grand a week or 50 grand a week. Newcastle can't do that because even if you're offering them top dollar like the other big clubs, no player in the world is going to choose Newcastle over Liverpool, City or Chelsea or Man United that's why it can't happen it just it can't part of it is commercial revenues now as well right because of PSR which has just gone and score cross ratio that's coming in you basically can spend what you make with a little bit on top and I know that owners can put stuff in but Newcastle you know they're not hosting Beyonce and they're not selling millions of shirts in the Far East these things are a massive problem for the clubs trying to break into that top end sorry Joe I also think there's a question to be asked about whether you should be able to use that commercial revenue, which is a non-footballing revenue, by the way, into your football operation.

17:44So if you've got a stadium like Spurs who host NFL games, massive concerts, they're commercially completely sewn it up and they get so much revenue from that, they then get to filter that into their football operations. Newcastle, realistically, purely because of the geographical location of the club, are never going to be able to do that. I wonder if that might be something they kind of look at in years to come. Sam Fender residency. It has to be sad. I sell it out every week. I was just going through Geordie groups there myself. It would be sad. Listen, you mentioned the title race, let's get into that.

18:13Let's chat a bit about the title race. I mean, I think this is fascinating this season because although Arsenal are obviously on paper the most settled club, they've got a manager who's been there for a while, they've got that monkey off their back winning the title. I can't, so it's a record that nine of the 20 Premier League clubs have a new manager ahead of a season. The previous record was eight. Among all those nine, you've got Chelsea, of course, Man City, Liverpool, and Newcastle. Newcastle are probably a bit generous saying they're title contenders, but isn't it the most open Premier League season for ages?

18:42Because Arsenal have got to go again. If you listen to Ferguson talk about how difficult it is to defend a league title, to lift those players after the exhalation of actually winning it, the inertia of that, they've got to hit the ground running as well. And I don't think that's done and dusted. So to me, it feels like a really open season.

19:03Where we are right now, and we know there's still a month to go as near the transfer-wise. Yeah, exactly. I can only see Arsenal City right now. So there's no question marks from both of you over City because I think Maresca, great, fine. He's been there before. He's done pretty work, Chelsea. He seems to me like quite a combustible character. And he seems like... Listen, there's a question because he's new to the role. I'm a fan of Maresca in terms of what he does on the pitch, in terms of what happened to Chelsea, in terms of watching him tactically, how they set up, the problems they cause Liverpool in games.

19:31At times, you know, when Liverpool in the league under slot it was still the two Chelsea games I was looking and thinking this fella knows what he's doing I think he's very capable at the level he's coaching at and whether Arsenal will be a lot better because they've got the monkey off the back I don't know but I don't think City were great for a lot of last season and the title still almost went to the wire that's a little bit around and I think and you've got to factor the Rodri a little bit into that as well exactly I mean listen if he stays or goes that could obviously be a huge factor in it but right now Now I don't think Liverpool are equipped to be thinking about the title.

20:07Who knows what's going to happen over the next month, but I don't think they're close to that. If you were to bring in sort of a top level defender, because that seems a really obvious area that needs to be fixed. Would that change your mind a bit? Just that one signing? No, no. I think Liverpool, it's more than that. I think Liverpool need two defenders and a top right winger to be in the chat or be in the chase I mean they just haven't replaced Mo Salah I mean we're supposed to be going for Barcola and I'm sitting there scratching my head and thinking the manager and the people sorting the transfers out they obviously know a lot more about me what's going on behind the scenes they know what probably the squad needs more than me but I'm still looking at it and you think we've got about four players who can play left wing and we're going for Barcola we haven't got one player who plays right wing in the squad it's like that seem an oversight Barcao can play on both sides you don't reckon I think listen I think most wide players now we know it's you know you play on the opposite side the opposite footer I get that but there's certain plays you look at and you think okay I think he could do a job on both sides but Barcola just when he runs with the ball I just couldn't imagine him going on the outside or someone and whipping a crossing he's definitely that one of when he comes inside and he and yeah I'm a little bit I'm a little bit worried but what I would say about Liverpool and the people above, I do almost trust them in terms of over the last sort of decade or so how they've got about business, they get good fees, they sell well, they bring in the players so I do feel like there must be something up the sleeve, there must be something there's a long way to go as well, the interesting thing for me when I was talking about how it's open is this idea that you can't trust Chelsea I think Chelsea getting Alonso is a coup it looks interesting, the early stuff they're doing in pre-season, I think Mureska, going after Guardiola is massive.

22:01Really tough. It doesn't matter who you are. The good squad though. It is a good squad. It is a good squad, but there's no real difference in terms of the seismic impact Guardiola had between going in after him and going in after Wenger or Klopp or Ferguson. It's a massive job. And I think for him to hit the ground running and win the league, I think is a big ask. Iriola is a great coach, but if you look at how he started at Bournemouth, eight or nine games without winning one. Very different though, isn't it? It is different, but I think the scrutiny when you don't do much at Bournemouth as I said to you the other day Jim you go three or four games without a win at Bournemouth no one notices outside of Bournemouth a lot of people in Bournemouth don't notice you know do it at Liverpool yeah it's a question all hell has broke loose over the last few days I mean we lost the pre-season game exactly I mean I just got them too new up though I mean that's just what's great isn't it I mean I'd have sold them all at the end of the game but I think it's a joke but it's a semi-serious point because if you think of Arnaz Slott Arnaz Slott felt to me particularly towards the end he didn't really know how to deal with the scrutiny, he would say quite odd things.

23:02He would speak exactly as an impressive youngish Dutch coach who'd done some stuff in Holland and understood that the game is there to be played. And of course, he won the title and good luck to him. But when the pressure came on him, he would say odd stuff. He would say odd things in interviews. And I'm not saying Irelia will be like that because obviously it's very highly rated. People are saying he's been linked with Real Madrid in the past. He might have that in his future. It's a very different job, isn't it? So there's arguments you can make, I think for every single team that will be challenging for the title this year as to why they won't win it.

23:34I mean, so as a, with my Arsenal hat on, as someone looking at everybody else as potential rivals, the thing that I find really interesting about Liverpool, with the caveat that Areola's never helmed a European campaign before, so that's something that he's going to have to manage and that's something that will probably come on to with Michael Carrick as well, is that because of the way Bournemouth play, the way it's really, really high pressing, really aggressive, all about transitions, it's actually quite similar to what Liverpool do when at their best. So is there not an argument that he actually, he could just sort of plug in and go with, with players that are, you know, as good as Bournemouth are, this is a step above there.

24:05I think it's actually a really good fit. And in terms of what you were worrying about there with it, you know, potentially being quite a slow start. I'm not worried about it. Okay. What you're kind of predicting there. I'm already involved in years. But do you think that scans, Jamie? I mean, there's a few things with it really that this idea that you're all the players. Liverpool love this style of football Right Because of Klopp No no no Every fan loves that style of football Yeah fine Not just Liverpool So it's a bit like Oh you've got to get an areola Because he plays like Klopp No no no It's not just Liverpool fans love Klopp Everybody loves that style of football Now I hope we don't become that club Where it's like Oh Klopp played like that So we've got to get a manager Who does this No no no no no Arnie Slott People criticised the style of football And I get it He was more controlled More passing He didn't lose his job Because of style just because of results.

24:58If we had a challenge for the league and won a domestic, could we still be in a job? You know, so... It was ponderous and boring for a large part of it. But what I'm saying is every style of football can win and lose. So, Iriola's style of football is exciting. Yes, but if you lose it, you're going, oh, well, why, it's open. We're getting done on the counter-attack. We're getting done on it. And Pep's style of football or Slott's style of football, oh, you can't get the ball off and they're moving the ball. When it doesn't work, it's slow and ponderous. So, there's good and bad of every style of football.

25:26It probably was right Slott went in the end because the support was sort of so negative against them. And I think there'll be no buzz coming into the season. But I do feel for him, and I think the players let him down a lot last season. But in terms of Iriola, I look at it and I can't change my opinion. And I know I've got a little bit of criticism from Liverpool supporters over it because I'm not fully behind the manager. I am behind the manager. I want him to do amazing. But I said something at the end of last season when he was getting linked with Chelsea. and you can't not fall in love as a supporter of that club with that style of football because you know the players are running everywhere, they're giving everything.

26:03And I was talking about Chelsea, you know, they need something to get behind. But it almost feels to me like when you make that jump from a, let's say a mid-table Premier League team to a team competing in Europe, it almost feels to me like in some ways I'd love Iola to have had that little bridge in the middle. In between, yeah. Win the UEFA Cup somewhere, the Europa League, Sevilla just go in Sevilla go and do Sevilla go and do a bit of UNI Emery go and do a little bit like Klopp at Dortmund so you think of the big European managers we've had and the two that stand out are probably Rafa Rafa Benitez and Jürgen Klopp and they've both had that sort of been at Valencia won the UEFA Cup won La Liga Klopp won but the Dortmund and the Champions League final but they're not the size of Liverpool and it almost feels like we've got Rafa from Tenerife and Klopp from Mainz and again that's not a criticism and it doesn't mean it can't work it's just in an ideal world I'd love Iriola to have had a couple of European campaigns won a trophy being involved in a cup final but at the moment maybe those managers aren't about because he will be held to that standard of course and understandably so he's going to make mistakes because he's not managed the European campaign how does he rotate does he rotate in the 12.30 game on a Saturday after the away game on a Wednesday night does he stay over with the team does he come straight back after the game these are all these things I remember as a player that players will be complaining about to managers and staff and if you've never really had it before you haven't got like this is my way of doing it you're still learning on the job you're still learning those little details but listen I think it can go well but I feel for him a little because right now I don't think he's got the squad he needs to really compete and also Richard Hughes the sporting director who knows him from Bournemouth is leaving when the transfer window was over.

27:56And I just think, is he going to be left here and isolated on his own? He's still laying on the job himself, and I hope he gets the help he needs. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you're a regular listener of the Football Ramble, you'll have heard me talk about BetterHelp and how good it is many, many times. But you'd have to take my word for it, though. If you go to betterhelp.com forward slash reviews, you'll see hundreds of people talking about how much BetterHelp has helped them. Updated every day, they have an average live therapy session rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client session reviews.

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30:46Do you think it's a factor that so many people were talking about Xavi Alonso going there instead and he ends up at Chelsea? Do you think that affects it? In terms of Liverpool supporters? Yeah, yeah. No, listen, I don't think Liverpool supporters have got a problem with their Iola. I'm seen as the one who's got the problem. Because I've just given a bit of analysis of the situation. I'd have to say the same if he went to another club. But no, I think Liverpool supporters are behind their Iola in terms of the pre-season and how he plays and pressing and being aggressive. and things like that but I do find it interesting and maybe we'll find out in the future why Liverpool didn't go for Alonso the one big reason I felt was that if he's going to play three at the back like he did at Leverkus and that's understandable that you simply don't have enough blokes you haven't got it exactly last weekend he's an extra centre back in there yeah but having kept my eye on the pre-season games of all the big clubs they're playing a back four right oh interesting okay so I think that is let's talk about Chelsea then because I mean one of the interesting angles on the Chelsea thing because I always feel like you never really know what you're going to get with Chelsea and Alonso's coming there.

31:52I was well surprised that he went. Same. I thought it was a really interesting move for him given this history of Liverpool, given that Liverpool and Chelsea had a rivalry around the time he played for them, right? And then he goes in there amid all these kind of other disciplinary things that are going on. Then they signed Jordan Henderson. Does that stick in the craw? Does that hurt? It's... How much does it hurt out of 10? it does hurt me but I don't know if I'm I was thinking about this this morning because I knew you'd ask me but a lot of people don't seem bothered by it do you think it's a good move?

32:25it's a great move for him I don't understand it from Chelsea's point of view I understand what I understand this oh we want experience for me what Chelsea lacked in experience was not buying players over 35 buying players over 27 28 like the lad from Crystal Palace feels to me like a really good signing Lacroix is it yeah Jordan Henderson was finding it tough at Liverpool three or four years ago that's why he obviously he wasn't going to play regular he obviously he's had a couple of moves from there Ajax he went to Saudi Ajax Brentford now I understand people getting excited in terms of what he might bring to the dressing room or off the pitch and I get that with England a six week tournament probably not going to play too much go down the training pitch with the lads who aren't playing how important is that though because everyone talks about that is it really important I don't know it's as important as people talk about I understand it from an England point of view really because you're going to have a lot of players who aren't playing but over a season at a football club you're going to have a lot of these and I don't know what Jordan's like he wants to play he will not be going there thinking he's a sub but so at 35 how much football has he got and if he plays a lot of football at Chelsea really a 35 year old Jordan Henderson who I absolutely adore and love played with him at Liverpool so great move for him I'm not quite sure with Chelsea I don't it's almost like you go from one extreme to another but Brian really young or really old no what you're missing is the people in the middle yeah exactly it's the 28 29 30 year old you can still play week in week out in the Premier League I'm not quite sure that Jordan can it feels like an overcorrection yes based on criticism they've had rather than insight because Welbeck as well or like something they've learned themselves yeah absolutely I mean obviously Morgan Rodgers is a really good signing and someone who's not quite in that 26 27 bracket but has played a lot of football but that's almost an example of what you're talking about I know he's younger but he's He's torn up the Premier League at times and he knows what it takes.

34:14So that might fit into that bracket, kind of what you're saying. It does feel like Chelsea are a little bit closer here to getting serious for really the first time under the new owners. And as I've said, those two players in Henderson and Welbeck possibly seem like a bit of an overcorrection. But I do think if they just get some football people in at the level where they make decisions, with the money they're able to spend, with Xabi Alonso, they've got real opportunities to actually just kind of get back to the top table they've got centre backs by the way so many of them they've got so many it's unbelievable but it's still hard to pick two at once and go back to the best pairing they're all the same player yeah identify them in a line-up it's impossible yeah absolutely I think they'll do I think they should do okay and I think they will do well Chelsea the no European thing is a massive thing to have that week all week on the training ground but when you've got 50 players in your first team sport does that not become a massive problem it's actually 54 according to their as of the 3rd of August so yesterday as we're recording this it's 54 players in the first team squad right so my joking exaggeration was actually less than they've got yeah great exactly it's bananas it's insane it almost they just live for transfers don't they they're good at selling players though so you talk about I mean I take your point about Henderson and I think you know that's the one thing that I would always argue with Marcus about Marcus would say he's such a great pro you should go to Liverpool's training ground when he was at Liverpool how good he was around the players all the rest of it and I would say like you just said three or four years ago he left Liverpool because he wasn't going to play right Chelsea's ambitions are every bit as high as Liverpool's with four years hence he's played not an awful lot of football and then they then they bring but they bring him in they sell Andre Santos to Man United for 50 million like they're amazing at selling players 50 million pounds for Andre Santos I'm not being rude but most non-Chelsea football fans would not be able to identify him in a line up they're really really good at it they signed Amari Hutchinson from us for 2 million pounds loaned him to Ipswich he did really well for them in the championship and they sold him permanently for 20 million quid it's unbelievable they're really good at it but they do forget about goalkeepers they haven't signed a keeper which is also a big problem a lot's been made of Robert Sanchez right do you both think he's not good enough I don't think he's at the level that Chelsea's ambitions are is how they characterise it it's been proven it's not a debate it's been proven trying to give a young man a chance I mentioned Andres Santos to Man United.

36:41Let's talk about United then because I didn't mention them in the list of teams that might win the Premier League this season. Maybe I should have. But what Carrick's been really good at at United is he's been good at coming in and just calming it all down, right? It was a circus, wasn't it? And I said this to you earlier this week, Jimmy. This idea that Michael Carrick and Sene Lomans in goal, they've both just by being quietly competent just stopped all chat about Man United. and obviously Lomond's kind of let himself done a bit in the World Cup but other than that he's done a good job but to me it feels like Carrick being inexperienced and not having a huge amount of time managing at the very top level what's going to happen when something goes wrong at United because it's a it's a sideshow that never ends isn't it I mean you might have felt the same at Liverpool but at United it's massive I think United's on probably another level in terms of the scrutiny of fields do you think that stops them having a chance of winning the league this season the fact they've got an inexperienced manager none of United won't win the league but I think the thing that I've probably liked about United this summer is it feels like for years they're always obsessed with this big name and I worry a little bit about my own club with that what we did last summer and I said this and I didn't really like it it felt like a Real Madrid summer Vets Isaac we're going to get Ekertikay another striker for 80 million even though we've got one for 125 this summer it's all about Barcola I'm like what about the days we had before when we were building that team under Klopp and we were getting players who people weren't quite sure about and getting great value I almost want to go back to that.

38:04Building around the rock of Jamie Carragher at the back. 100%. But what I would say about United is it doesn't feel like they're on this mission to go and get this big name. Now, Santos coming in now, Andre Santos, who knows how he'll do. Tielemans as well, by the way. Tielemans. You know, sort of what you might think, oh, clever, people not expecting that, something a little bit different. It's not about the name, it's about what's right for the team and the club. And it feels like United are going down that road, which I think is probably healthy for them before because it just felt, It was all about spending big and getting a big name and keeping the fans happy, but without any real idea about how it was going to work.

38:38Are you worried about United as an Arsenal fan, Jim? Do you think they're going to challenge? Because Jamie's written them off there. That'll be the headlines tomorrow. I'm sorry. I don't mind them ones. No, same. I mean, you know, we grew up in the 90s. Obviously, we will never get bored of Man United not being what they were. I'm sure as a player, that's tenfold. Every single time a Man United fan complains about this show or complains about me, I just always think, you had your time. You had your fun. the whole time I was growing up United it was United United United it comes around it'll come around again it's another little win of course it's cyclical isn't it so I think there's a lot of positives to look at with Man United I think with some of the players they've got in that squad like Benjamin Sesko possibly Lenny Uro and Aidan Heaven as well some of those kind of players who have got a bit more experience now I think we can expect probably more from them and with Kunyurin and Bumo Diallo in there as well they've got some really good players in there but they played the minimum amount of games it is possible to play which is just weird and doesn't happen very often for a team like that if ever and the pressure starts now and really I think Michael Carrick is untested in this kind of scenario I think with the attacking players they brought in last season they all did well I'm just thinking which one one of them needs to become a star now you know can Embemo go to I'm talking about you know what Saka's been doing for Arsenal what Salah was doing for Liverpool you know you think what Haaland does for City in terms of challenging for the league but Bruno Fernandes is their reference point yeah I suppose you're right I was thinking more of the front three in terms of getting the goals I suppose he is that guy but is he going to have a season again like he had well 21 assists in the Premier League is amazing but I think maybe the kind of spectre at the feast here is this idea of Rashford coming back right Rashford comes back he's got nowhere else to go presumably he's going to stay because the landing spots are hard for him because his wages are so high what's happened in his absence is that Kunia's coming and made a big contribution so Carrick's got to kind of somehow square that circle I think it's going to be really hard to offload Rashford and I think I was on TalkSport last week talking about Rashford a lot of Man Utd fans calling and texting in saying he needs to apologise if he comes back I think I was listening yeah they were saying he needs to the way he's treated the club the perceived lack of effort the way he's conducted not my opinion it's what people were saying he needs to kind of he wants a clean slate he needs to front up but I mean I suppose if they can't get rid of him you've got to use him and you're talking about Cunha I mean they still when I look at my new squad it still feels like they lack someone on the left have I got that wrong or Cunha for me is more of a between the lines maybe a centre forward I mean he has played off the left alongside he does play there now and again Cunha but it doesn't feel like it's his position it feels like he he does a job there do you think Casemiro's a miss as well his goals will be a miss his goals will be a miss Adam Mare on his debut didn't he I'll say it so you don't have to Jamie yeah he scored their own goal didn't he You said his legs are gone, I think.

41:32His legs are gone. Leave the game before the game leaves you. No, what was the exact quote? What was it? Leave the football before the football leaves you. To be fair, it was great TV. It was great TV. It was great TV. But, I think, you know, Casemiro's a senior pro, right? Is that important, the fact that he's leaving the dressing room? Chelsea should have signed him. Yeah, exactly. You don't think he's a miss then? No. No. Listen, he got a lot of goals from you. I think he was a big problem. Listen, understandably he was a big problem how old was he? 34, 35? in a holding midfield position you're going to get and the size of that pitch at Old Trafford so central midfield has been a massive problem defensively for Manchester United I think for virtually all the time Casemiro's been there because he just he hasn't had the legs to do that job properly and he would cover up that a little bit by being unbelievable at scoring goals from set pieces I mean it was I mean he scored one in the World Cup didn't he?

42:26Yeah he's got you know he's just got an unbelievable ability and he's a big lad but he's not a giant he's good in the air though isn't he yeah but my point being it's not just about being good in the air it's sensing it's reading the situation you know finishing it so that will be a problem in terms of you know they're not going to get a central midfield player if you want to get those goals I don't think I mean it might free up Kobe Maynou right if you take Andre Santos as the player that's probably going to play in there alongside Fernandes and perhaps Maynou I mean the idea around Maynou tends to be that he needs someone kind of close to him and he's better in a midfield three obviously because Casemiro's lack of pace that was harder that could be another bonus for Man United he'll be fresh as well barely played last season yeah what do you think of the main new thing because I think he's a really good player and everything obviously I understand what he brings and I get why people like him but he's definitely one of those players who's improved in his absence at the World Cup the chat around it was like he's not played a minute why are we not playing him and that's definitely enhanced his reputation oh 100 % well you play your best games when you don't play that's always been the case as a player but I was obviously you see all United fans on social media and you're always you always go out to baff your own player don't you with an England situation but I was reading thinking I went to a tournament where I'm playing in a minute in 2004 I was thinking I wasn't getting this reaction but no I think it was probably you had some players ahead of you did you have Terry and Ferdinand ahead of you yes exactly who did Kobe have ahead of him Jordan Henderson the ghost of Dexter Rice you had Ferdinand Terry and Campbell at the same time that's a tough era you're the Andy Murray of England centre-backs.

43:58Yeah, I'd take that. I'd take that. I forgot to ask you about Salah, actually, before we move on, because I want to push you on who you think will win the league this season, because I think that's interesting while you're here. But before we do that, I mean, Salah looks like he might be going to Travson's ball. Oh, does he? Yeah, going to Turkey. I think he could, I know Turkey can pay players a lot, and I get why players go there, because you know, you've got the whole situation there with finances for what is a relatively small league. But I mean, what, the third or fourth best team in Turkey?

44:27do you think he could do better than that? I never believed he was going to go to Saudi because number one he's too good for that and number two How good do you still think he is? I think he's I think he can be playing in Syria that's the level Turkey for me feels like a level too low to me Something like 22 goal contributions last season wasn't it in a season when everyone was saying he's like he's a busted flash Yeah exactly and I was convinced he'd end up at like AC Milano or Juventus or something like that. Maybe his wages were a problem. But looking at him, I don't know him. Obviously, I never spoke to him.

45:05But he looks so driven. He's like Ronaldo, isn't he? They're so driven. His numbers mean so much to him. And I thought, and he can still do this in Turkey, by the way. But I thought he'd still sort of want to play at a real prestigious club. And maybe, well, obviously his wage demands have probably put a few people off. I thought he might almost curb those demands a little bit to almost get a better club. You know, so go to an, as I say, AC Milan, Juventus, whoever it may be, you know, still playing in the San Siro, still playing in big game, still playing in Europe. For me, Turkey just feels like, I don't know, I just think he's better.

45:42I do too. While you're here, actually, because you could apply this to Rashford as well, what we get as non-ex-pros, you know, listeners ask us this as well, this idea that, you know, if you're a top pro and you've earned loads of money, you've earned more money than every normal person can even imagine. Why would you not just lower your wage demands and play rather than insist that... I get on a basic idea of principle that say Marcus Rashford will say, you offered me that contract, I was worth it, you've got to pay me it. I deserve this because I deserved it then. But from our point of view, the outside looking in, I think we're a bit like, well, you're a long time retired, it's a short career.

46:18Would you rather just not play and have a couple more trophies? How much money would you trade in for a couple more trophies or a couple of more moments, you know? How do you feel about that As an ex-player 100 % You agree 100 % yeah Yeah I do I mean I look at it But you didn't want to play For anyone else Other than Liverpool though No No No but what I'm saying is You only get one career It's very short And I'm not sort of saying This is going to be a smart ask You know because I was a player In good money at my time But I I wouldn't sit somewhere And not play You say I want to play For Liverpool Of course I did But in the middle of my career If I'd have been a sub I'd have left Right 100 % Even at the latter end Of your career Do you still feel like does every pro just want to play every game in those moments?

46:58Yeah and that's why I retired that's why I left the football before the football but I knew I was retired I mean about 18 months to go nothing was going to change my mind because I wasn't playing every week and I was like okay I can get through this for 18 months Kenny left me out in the middle of his sort of 18 months to go I actually got back in the team in my last season and then I thought no this is the time to go when you're in the team not in the stands struggling you know getting the odd sub appearance I actually played I think I played about 25 games or made appearances 25 appearances I think roughly in my last season now some players do that every season for their careers and I'm a bit like how people could do that I'd never do that what's the mindset of that then what do you mean for me no for them why do they honestly I don't know is this players though that actually just can't nail down a first team play.

47:53But you can't. So what you have is, you'll have players who, sometimes I look at it and think, if you play at a top club, you're only going to play 25 games. If you drop down, you're going to play 40. What would you rather do? It's probably you look at someone like Curtis Jones right now at Liverpool. He's probably always going to be a squad player. But you've still got that thing of playing for Liverpool every time you play. And it's a big game. It could be a big European game. It could be an FA Cup semi-final. Or are you going to play for someone, I mean, it looks like Interball Arden for them, but someone a little bit lower down.

48:20We got the ass on the other day, didn't he, about that captain armband thing? Oh, yeah. Honestly, God knows. I've seen on social media, God knows what was going on. I don't want to mention it because I don't really know the full facts about it, but it wasn't a good look. That's not the spirit of this show. I'll speculate. I'll tell you what I'll say. These are my personal views, not the views of Jamie Carriger. When Sir Boslow went off, he gave the captain's armband to Simicas. But I didn't see the game. And Jones thought he should have it. Yeah, I get that. I'm not that thick. I've only gone the last 40 minutes, mate.

48:51No, I get that. But listen, Curtis Jones should have carried on the way he did on the pitch. That's obvious. But I just thought Simakas is a left back. Yeah. Has it just been like Subozdice ran off and gone, okay. There you go, have it, yeah. It's very season friendly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think Simakas added the game. Listen, shouldn't forget. What were we talking about? I can't remember what we were talking about. Players should be playing. Yeah. We never got a talk about it on this show. Don't worry about it. I mean, I just, I think the most important thing is the play every week. And if you take a little bit less dough or whatever, I think you should do that.

49:26I think as normal people who earn normal money, we probably agree. But then it's difficult to put yourself in that mindset. We want to talk about FIFA while you're here as well. But before we do, if I had to push you for someone for the team that's going to win the league this season, who do you think is most likely at this point? I know there's a lot of transfers to go. We've got a month left of the transfer window. But at this point now? I think City. Okay. The reason I think City is, I think they were still close last year. And I know Pep's going to get that. But when you've had the same manager for 10 years, the flip side of what people say is, oh, it's hard to come after them.

50:03Just something maybe a little bit new, a little bit fresh. Does it depend on Rodri, though? Yeah, I think if Rodri left for Remedit, I wouldn't be saying that. But in terms of where they are right now, I just still look at it. Because he's told City he wants to go. Yeah, but I mean, if you're City, what's the point in selling them? What's the point? Just get another year out, let him go for free. He's the best in his position. What's 40 million for City? But you don't reckon there's no chance he might just not want to play or not be motivated or not want to be a part of it? Well, I'd be very disappointed because there's certain plays you look at and you think they'd carry on like that.

50:31I hope he wouldn't. He knows he can go to Remedy in the year for free if Man City want to keep him. I mean, that might even be the strategy, right? That might be the intention they do this, don't they? There's no way. I'd just be saying, listen, sort your deal out. You can go in 12 months. Don't worry about, you know, that's what I would do so you think City are most likely I just think City with a new manager would be so invested in the Premier League with Arsenal I do feel like it'd be a thing of like the Champions League we got the final we never lost it you didn't lose a game in the tournament did you and you still never and winning the Champions League for Arsenal just and I have this debate with people and it shouldn't be a debate but everyone disagrees with me the Champions League is far bigger than a domestic league and it puts players, managers and the club on a completely different level to win a Champions League and I just think if you got to March, April and you were still in the Champions League that's where you're actually going Declan Rice, no you're not playing Saturday, you're playing Tuesday night.

51:29It just, it will and I just, and I'm not sure City will have that because I think Marese is going to be so, like if I can get this league back it's... It's massive, yeah. No, I totally understand that. And I still think no matter what they've still got Haaland up front and you know he's going to get 30 goals. Yeah. he is going to get that and I still do believe with Arsenal you still haven't got a superstar up front I thought that would stop you winning the big trophies and I was proven wrong last season you won the league it's tight though isn't it it's tight in the end I still look at it and think that front three shouldn't win the league that's when I look at it normally the attacks of teams have got something a little bit more than what Arsenal have got would Vinicius joining Arsenal if that happens change your mind on that yeah in terms of being that superstar that they've got Jamie if they sign one of the best players in the world does that make Arsenal better that's what Jim said you just asked him if footballers like football essentially some of them don't do you want to play some of them don't I think the Vinicius Junior thing is really really interesting in that I do think you need something like that to win the Champions League obviously you've proven you can win the league but I was saying this on the show we do for the Champions League I just can't see Arsenal winning it because those players you've got to have think of teams who win the Champions League think of like the guy up front or the winger it's like it's top five players in the world but is Arteta almost giving up something that he loves in terms of like these wingers just permanently running back and helping the full back being in this block on the edge of their own box saying I've actually got to roll the dice here I've got to go okay I've got to lose a bit of that to gain a bit of that and then there's no guarantee No but it's the most worthwhile compromise you can imagine right you'd like you would always surely every fan in the situation Arsenal are in now and I think every Arsenal fan is like, yeah, get it done, do it.

53:17I think only really sort of paranoid people are like, no, it will upset the balance of this. We're here to enjoy ourselves, right? Yeah, definitely. Everybody wants that player I'd love to see him come. I'd love to see it. Because you don't see many top players at the very top of their game coming to the Premier League. No. It doesn't really work like that for some reason. And you're not at the elite level? No. I think we lack top players in the Premier League right now, I do. And what really hit home was the World Cup, the semi-final stage so England were in it so it was France, Spain England, Argentina so they were the four best teams in the world they were the FIFA ranked four top teams I don't think there was one attacker who played in the Premier League besides I think Morgan Rodgers who only got in that game it doesn't really count as it he was a squad player wasn't he in England really in an ideal world not an ideal world when England are picking the best team probably Morgan Rodgers is not in it so you're looking at it thinking is this a farmer's league Yeah But Anthony Gordon's left Bellingham's in Spain Harry Kane's in It's like Out of all the top attack And players No one's in the Premier League It's like this is not You know So for us to get somebody I think would be amazing I just can't see it happening He's surely doing it To get a new contract At Remedis Yeah I mean I put my Percentage of How much I thought It would happen At 67 % On the Arsenal podcast The other day I'm inflating myself With a bit of hopium there Of course What did all the Arsenal presenters think?

54:42What was the kind of general consensus? I was the only one who was tricked into naming a percentage, actually. Everyone is quietly hopeful about it. The kind of feeling among Arsenal fans on this is that everyone is confident that Arsenal are doing everything they can possibly do and that they are selling in a package that financially is, it looks like, incredibly, they're going to try and match what Real Madrid are offering at the very least. A lot of stuff to do with image rights that would be done differently here in Madrid because Madrid take 50 % of a player's image rights because they're around Madrid and they can do what they want or certainly a much higher percent.

55:12So I am of the opinion that Arsenal are doing everything they can to make it happen but I still think there's a huge chance that if you're one of the star players at Real Madrid why would you ever leave that? And if he can get the money he wants he'll stay there. The Mourinho dynamic of it is interesting. Because Mourinho's siding with Prestiani and that whole racism scandal it's not going to make you feel great if you have any junior I imagine. So that might be an aspect of it. I think he's been in negotiations over a contract and it's not made much progress for quite some time now. He is going into the final year.

55:44So all the kind of alarm bells are ringing. It's not like... I agree with you, Jamie. The kind of cynical side of it is just like, look at this Premier League. The Premier League champions want me, so put your hand in your pocket. It's not as ridiculous as it might sound on paper, right? As you say, all of those elements are there and they would make it definitely something that could happen. But I can also totally see a situation where we're signing Marcus Rashford on deadline day. Yeah, right. Because the drop-off of who is it if not him, there's no market out there. But again, I go back to what I said at the start, Bruno coming to Arsenal.

56:20Normally, you'd probably look at a barcola because of the age and think, okay, we'd have him for the next seven or eight years. Now, of course, you're never going to turn Vinny Jr. down, but it's the wages, the price tag, not a bad, still a good age, but it just smacks off. We're going to win the league again next season, or we're going to go for the championship. that we're doing this right now. Yeah, we want to dominate now. Yeah, this is our time. The Alex Ferguson strengthening from a position of strength type thing. Arsenal haven't retained a league since the 1930s. Right, okay. Because Wenger never did it, though.

56:49Wenger never did it, yeah. Yeah, Mourinho did it, obviously.

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58:37We should talk about FIFA because it's the big story at the time, really. Now, many ex-pros, some ex-pros, I suppose, have decided to align themselves with FIFA. Real. I wasn't going to say it. I wasn't going to say it. I wasn't going to say it. You've chosen not to do that. But, I mean, just before I ask you a direct question, I mean, the latest news on this with Gianni Infantino is nonsense, is that the FAA is set to write to Infantino to withdraw support for him. He's apparently, I mean, these are the words of a decent journalist, not my words. He is reportedly begging Donald Trump for help to save his job.

59:09He has repeatedly tried and failed to reach Trump by phone since the proposal collapsed on Friday. And he's now felt isolated by Trump and the avalanche of negative media coverage. An alliance has been formed with the intention of removing Infantino. And they're also going to just talk people might stage their own international competitions if he refuses to step down. He has got some support among other countries as well. But Jamie, you're in an interesting position because you obviously are an ex-pro and you've played at international level, but you're also a massive football fan, right? When I worked with you before, I realised how much you cared about it.

59:41I remember when you talked about the 2005 Champions League final at halftime, you were working out in your own mind that you didn't want Liverpool to be on the end of a record final score, right? That was the thing you worried about before they turned it around. So you are, I mean, I mean this with love, you're like a real nerd for the game and you've got that Everton tattoo as well oh yeah yeah but you can I tell you the story about that yeah go for it the reason because I've got a t-shirt on so I used to wear a long sleeve so that was the room big Everton fan Everton tattoo so I'm watching my son at Liverpool's academy and it's like in the pre-sea or the summer so I'm sat with a t-shirt on so I'm just sat on the floor the kids are playing five a side this fella walks along and my dad My dad's with me watching James.

1:00:26She went, you've got an Everton tattoo, haven't you? So I've just, I've got a t-shirt on. I've just gone, like that. And then he went, the fella. You know, as if like, so I've lifted them up. You're rumbled. And then he said, you've still got it, haven't you? And my dad went, where do you think it is on his fucking ass? Exactly, when you get totally naked. And it gets stripped off. Where'd that rumour come from then? Where's the rumour come from? I think it was because I used to wear long sleeves when I first got in the team and everyone knew I was a Mad Everton fan as a kid. So it was just, listen, rumours in Liverpool.

1:01:01I mean, it's what the city live on them. Okay, right, fine. Okay. Can I go back to the really serious point about the heart and soul of the future of this game? Yes, you can. Before you interrupted me about it. What do you think about this? I mean, is it something that affects the players as much? Is it something you care about as deeply as you think all the other football fans do? Because there's been a massive outcry about this. It feels to me that Infantino has just gone one step too far now. He's pushed and pushed and pushed and he's gone one step too far. Does the future of the game at this level concern you?

1:01:33Yes. I can't say it's, as I'm sat there thinking, oh, the future of the game and what this means for the World Cup. If I think of myself as a football fan, I'm a club football fan. I'm like every week, Premier League, you know, international football has never, ever come close to sort of... Did you watch England's games in the World Cup? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I watched the World Cup. What I'm saying is it's not like, for me, my life revolves around club football. But I just, I've got a real problem with him. I always have done. I really don't like him. I've got to be careful what I say. Not about him personally, actually.

1:02:08No, but I just don't like him. I knew you'd ask me, because you text me what they heard. So a few years ago, I got asked to go on to a Zoom with Arsene Wenger. Right. Now, even though I played against Wenger's teams, and I never spoke to him, and he's a legend, isn't he? He's someone you look up to in the Premier. You think of Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger when I was first coming into the, you know, legends, you know, and I thought, oh, this would be amazing, this speaking to Arsene Wenger. So I did a little chat with Arsene Wenger. He was getting involved with FIFA at the time, and it was all around this World Cup being every two years.

1:02:48So he said, I'd like you to come on this other call with ex-players and we're going to chat about the ideas going forward. I'm like, brilliant, amazing. You know, Sue's on it. So we get on this Zoom and it wasn't just English players. It was like Masquerano was on there. It was all foreign players from all over the world. And they're basically talking about the pros of a World Cup every two years. Now, I'm just listening, asking questions. I don't like the idea, you know. So we finish this Zoom. Now, I haven't said I don't like it. shouldn't happen. I'm a bit like, I'm just chatting with these ex-players.

1:03:24And the guy who was organizing, it must have been whoever it was, organizing the Zoom, then texted me and said, okay, can you put this out? Can you put this out? About like support? I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Right, that's weird. No, no, no. Just because I came on the Zoom, I don't agree with it. I don't want it. I think it's rubbish. And I actually, maybe I'd put a tweet out or I'd done something. but what it was was it was almost this feeling of once you're in in here with us and you're on this zoo we're all these ex-players and we're in there was no do you understand what I mean it was almost like oh we're terrified I was like behave yourself a World Cup every two it's absolutely ridiculous so the fact they thought that I was in and I see these ex-players now you see Ronaldo don't you you know we all love Ronaldo they don't really care about they're getting a free meal they're getting the ticket for the game probably getting a few quid Ronaldo's definitely getting a free meal for sure yeah he's had a few but you see all the ex-players I'm not going to have a go at them because you know what are they doing with the light it's probably a great little trip we go to America watch the World Cup they probably don't care about it but that was my insight into it with Wenger and sort of Infantino above him was that get all these ex-players in this makes us look okay the ex-players half of them don't care right and they're getting a little job it gives it legitimacy exactly that's the point I'm trying to make and I was like so from that I was like nah I'm not having this at all you know this is if footballers are thick half of them are thick you know just bring them in bring them in and they're onside and then that makes us look good so I'm not too fond of sort of the players getting involved and making them look sort of cool and legit to me that's really disappointing from Wenger I was going to say I feel I mean Arsenal fans must have a complicated relationship with this because I personally feel like as a football fan, really let down by Wenger.

1:05:18Some of the stuff he comes out with, he sits next to Infantino. He, in some cases, not, to be fair, not with this FIFA forward enterprises thing, but generally, he kind of endorses things or supports it, even implicitly, even if he doesn't say it directly. It's the worry with FIFA in general, isn't it? Yeah. Once they're in there, it's all, as Jamie's alluding to there, it's all a big cabal. Exactly. I saw a tweet the other day of someone, I actually responded to it. Someone said the other day, oh, you know, when this Infantino thing came out, he said, well, Wenger needs to come out and say something about this.

1:05:44He's a big ambassador for the game. He's a legend in English football. And I said, I'm not being funny, he's an amazing manager and he's revolutionised the game on the pitch when he came in. If you're waiting for Wenger to say something sensible about this stuff off the pitch, you'll be waiting for a long time because his track record since he stopped being a manager was dreadful. His book had basically no information in it at all. It was an absolute masterclass in giving a broad overview of stuff you already know and not saying much. He has actually come out today and essentially just clarified what his job is said he didn't know about the FFE plans and essentially decrying it.

1:06:18But again, it's taken a couple of days. It's diplomatically bland. There's not much in it. But I was like that when I spoke to Wenger on that Zoom. It's like, I've got this, I'm looking at this guy up here. Even though I'm Liverpool Arsenal, it's like, oh no, you're a lead. Was he endorsing it then? He was pushing it forward. It was his thing. It was his baby. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was his baby, this World Cup, every two years. How is this way? So there's one summer arrest every four years for players. How would you work? How is this happening? And his opinion was like, no, the young kids now, it's not that there's too much football.

1:06:51They just want high quality football. And they were trying to like, it's just bollocks. But it's also, it would be like, that essentially kind of values football as an entertainment product, right? And if you look at kind of cases like Marvel and Star Wars, right? Where they've just made loads and loads and loads of TV shows and extra content and everyone's lost interest in it. It's like, it's going to be the same sort of thing. But the story of it is the fact that Infantino and FIFA feel like a load of stuff is happening, the party's happening, and they're not a part of it for three or four years.

1:07:23That's where it starts. That's where the Club World Cup come in. Exactly. Yeah, because they want to have a FIFA event as often as the UEFA get events, as often as the Premier League get events. And they see the money they make and go, we can make more of this. The geezer who came out and said, Carlos Cordero, who came out and quit because of Infantino's thing, he actually said that the statement was a lot more damning than people were reporting. He said directly to Infantino, if you want to support the game more, FIFA have got$15 billion sitting there. Use that. Don't be saying it off to private investors without speaking to anyone.

1:07:54I can't let this slide, which is why he quit. But my concern would be, I think Infantino, apart from the fact that he might better get out of it because these truly evil types do find a way sometimes of sticking around, like cockroaches, as someone was saying the other day. But my concern would be, even if he does go, whoever comes in could just be even worse I mean because we hated Blatter right and even Haviland before that he looks like Mother Teresa oh no exactly exactly it's mad Blatter liked a long lunch and some backhanders exactly but I think the success of the Champions League and there's no doubt about even though I think the World Cup was amazing I really enjoyed it the Champions League a quarter final semi final and final it does feel like it just it just the level of football the drama we have the late goals it's like it never lets you down the Champions League and it's every year and there's big money every year and as I said that's where FIFA what can we do and then they create the FIFA World Cup which I just I'm like oh my god the club World Cup the club World Cup and I'm just like I'm just this is your chance now get them out get that competition out as well that's a nonsense no one even knows where the next one is it's like there's no how do you get in it yeah they made that up as they went along exactly and everything he does is made up as he goes along I mean getting into Miami into that competition getting Ronaldo's band lifted before the tournaments it was just bizarre like Chelsea were in it because they won and Chelsea obviously won it but they were in it because they won the Champions League like four years before it was just and then the champions of England Italy and Spain weren't in it it's just bizarre and the way they get away with it is because they and it's the same with the sports washing thing they get away with it because they know that we love football.

1:09:41And as soon as the game, it's like the World Cup we just had. As soon as the first game kicks off, most people are like, oh, brilliant, it's the fucking World Cup. I didn't watch the Club World Cup. I watched the final. The only game I watched was the final. I watched two games. Paris Saint-Germain batted Real Madrid in one game. And I watched the final. And it wasn't a case of, oh, it was just a bit like, I'm on holiday. I'm really going to go and find somewhere to watch. Now, that was one tournament I didn't watch. Yeah, I think we all resented that a bit as well. because obviously our job is also to watch football.

1:10:10Oh, God. One of the things I think is really funny about this reaction from Gianni Infantino to sort of debase himself and go running to Trump. I love that. I love that. Gianni. He is like David Brank saying to Neil, don't make me redundant. Yeah, massively. Don't do it. Please, please. But so on top of all of the stuff with the FIFA First Enterprise, as we were mentioning the other day. FIFA Forward Enterprise. FIFA Forward Enterprise. Sorry, that's Freudian there. is that basically so many people in FIFA are saying to him don't think we've forgotten about this situation with following Balogun with you running off to Donald Trump to try and get the red card overturned and the first thing he does is goes running off to Donald Trump he just is incapable of learning why it is that no one likes him and no one likes the things he's doing it's incredible he seems just absurd to me now I mean when I saw the Trump stuff I mean I was on holiday with my missus obviously watching the games in the hotel that we're on and she's not interested in football but I'm like you've got to watch this because I know I think Trump's the funniest person in the world when he's not affecting my life you know when he's doing but like watching him speak and the things he says I'm just like oh my god but watching the Infantino thing and him thinking he's helping Infantino and he's actually every word that comes out of his mouth he's making it worse and they have to stay and the grim pattern on their faces it's like watching a bloke realise he's made to deal with the devil.

1:11:36Yeah, this isn't going to help. Infantino now to me looks like a clown without makeup. And I know technically every human being looks like a clown without makeup. But he does the most. He does, absolutely. All right, we'll have to leave it there. I think that's it. Jamie, thanks so much for coming in, mate. Thanks for having me. Keep up the good work. Fantastic. It's been great to have you on the Football Ramble Summer Series. Appreciate it. We'll be back tomorrow. We're always back tomorrow, aren't we? Yeah, we'll be back tomorrow with more of this. So yeah, stay safe. See you soon.

1:12:09The Football Ramble is a Stack Production and part of the Acast Creator Network.

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