The World Cup's Greatest Matches | Game's Gone Ep10 [Amazon Music Exclusive]

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3:17Hello, everyone. You're about to listen to the latest episode from our Games Gone series, which is exclusively available on Amazon Music. This is the first of three World Cup specials we're doing in May, June and July. And we've also recorded a whole host of other Games Gone episodes for you to enjoy. We've done episodes on Jose Mourinho's Maddest Moments, Ronaldinho, Sam Allardyce's England tenure and loads more. You can listen to those for free exclusively on Amazon Music. And if you've got a Prime membership, you can also listen to every episode of the Ramble completely ad-free. Enjoy the episode.

3:53Hello everybody, welcome to Games Gone, a Football Ramble series exclusively available on Amazon Music. I'm Marcus Speller. I'm Jim Campbell.

4:02Marcus Speller: And I'm Vodushina Hattaraja.

4:17Hello everybody, welcome back to episode 10 of Games Gone. Make sure you listen back to all nine previous episodes of Games Gone. If you've missed any, you can do that by searching Football Ramble Games Gone wherever you're listening to this right now. For the final three episodes of Games Gone, we wanted to turn our attention to the big dance happening this summer. Sure, this summer's World Cup might be remembered for$3 million tickets and Gianni Infantino giving himself a giant gold sticker in the Panini album, but it still continues a legacy unlike any other sports tournament. So, over the next three episodes of Games Gone, we're going to dive into all that history, starting with three of the greatest World Cup matches we've ever seen.

4:59Jim, why don't you kick things off

5:02Jim Campbell: with what you've brought to the table So I am going to slap the case for recency bias straight onto the table and I'm going to go for the last World Cup final Argentina 3, France 3 obviously Argentina and Emil Martinez triumphed on penalties it was a controversial World Cup as we've become used to it was a mid-season winter World Cup there was a lot of controversy about that at the time in reality as a lot of people expected it would it meant that the players were all those that made it there of course were generally in pretty good form and and up to speed and you didn't have any of that stuff where players are tired because of a long season and and you know an injury happening in may because of fatigue means player misses the world cup all those things um it meant the standard was quite high and this final really really delivered and the thing for me that makes it so notable is that it was the first World Cup since 2002 where there was a South American winner and that looked like it was in danger of really becoming a thing of the past.

6:09Jim Campbell: So obviously between 2002 and 2022 there were four World Cups all of those had gone to European teams. Previously there'd been at most two before a South American team had won after a European team had won and even then that was only once when Italy won twice in 1934 and 1938 so this was kind of seismic really and a really welcome thing as far as I'm concerned that a South American team won it again. Well yeah I mean non-European. Sure. It goes into your point I mean realistically it was going to be a South American team who was going to challenge the European teams but you're right it was I mean yeah that European team is never England is it?

6:49not in our lifetime sadly but you you're right and obviously the main man Lionel Messi was on board Shelby was captain let's be clear and I think that there was always that chat wasn't there I don't know whether it was Europeans projecting it onto Argentinians or indeed it was downplayed in Europe because he played his football here but there was always that chat wasn't there that that Messi hadn't connected with his home country and his national team in the way, obviously, Diego Maradona had. There's a number of reasons for that. And again, some would downplay that, some would overplay that. Wherever it is, it was a discussion.

7:28And Messi had got Argentina, well, Argentina with Messi had got to a World Cup final before in 2014, they were beaten by Germany. And otherwise, you know, it'd been a little bit disappointing. In 2018, they went out to France. I mean, it was 4-3, but really France. I think they were 4-1 up at one point. They bossed them. And it was disappointing. Again, they laboured their way through the group. There was a danger they have to get a late goal against, I think it was Nigeria. And da-di-da-di-da, it leads me to say that, again, Lionel Messi with the Argentina team, they have this expression in Argentina, has he unpacked his bag or something is what they say.

8:10And what they mean is... Is he staying? Yeah, is he Spanish now? Is he European? Or is he going to come home at some point? There was all this. A huge monkey off Argentina's back before this was the Copa America. Yes. Which they won during COVID. So it would have been, I think it was summer of 2021, they beat Brazil, in Brazil, 1-0 in the final. And that's where there was sort of a bit of a sea change. Because he had retired, hadn't he? Well, indeed, yeah. Yeah, it's a good point.

8:39Marcus Speller: Would you remember the big thing going into Qatar was whether he and Cristiano Ronaldo would make it? And the organisers for, you know, certainly the Qatari delegation involved in putting on the World Cup, tried to do certain things behind the scenes to ensure that they would turn up. I think, you know, it's pretty obvious about the amount of money that was spent, I suppose, to get the World Cup and also to put it on. but they had budgeted to try and make it worth their world to ensure that both of them would be there because they wanted this moment basically this was such a big as you were saying Marcus this was such a huge talking point that it got to the stage where I think more people than not were willing it into existence yeah I think so and I think a lot of that is just almost to say that we saw it because I remember going into this final and I actually wanted France to win.

9:39Marcus Speller: I couldn't really explain it, but I found like... England-Argentine rivalry probably. No, but I don't feel that too keenly, but I think, I mean, more of, I thought the Messi stuff was overblown. Right, yeah. And then when he won it, when he lifts it in that, you know, outfit, I was like, you know, it's bitter key. And maybe about a month later, I was like, that's pretty cool, I saw Messi win the World Cup. Yeah, I know what you mean.

10:04Jim Campbell: And as well, the background to this final is Lionel Messi can he win the World Cup everybody says to truly be the greatest you have to win the World Cup as Maradona did and as Pelé did and you've also got very clearly the next guy in line in Kylian Mbappe who's going to go on to be certainly in the conversation for the world's leading player, exactly, has already won one so you've got the example there of a player living without the pressure Messi's had on him the whole time. And so often, you know, every World Cup final has amazing ingredients to it. Of course it does. It's the culmination of two incredible stories of the teams and the various players and it getting to that.

10:44Jim Campbell: And so often they're quite flat, cagey affairs. But this was absolutely electric. This absolutely lived up to it. You know, Mbappe scores a hat-trick. Obviously, two of them are penalties and he puts his penalty away in the shootout as well. But it's still a hat-trick in a World Cup final. Lionel Messi scores two goals. It was really, really quite something. the best game of the whole tournament which is really quite spectacular for the final and yet it was so one-sided for most of it and I think this is the funny thing I agree with everything you said obviously because I can't disagree with you and I would want to because that would be foolish if Nicolas Otamendi doesn't give that penalty away a bit of a clumsy fail then it could have been the most complete and comprehensive performance you'll see from a team in a World Cup final Argentina was scintillating particularly in that first half Messi scores the goal bit of a clumsy one for the penalty which puts them 1-0 up slightly soft was it Dembele on Di Maria?

11:44Yeah It's given he scores The second goal I think is up there with that classic Brazil 1970 final goal Wow I think it's up there in terms of team move We've seen Argentina you know I mean Argentina they are such a box office nation when it comes to football they're driven by

12:08Jim Campbell: a rage that is sort of unique to them and that doesn't affect their judgement I know what you mean it's a really amazing thing to be able to harness which is seen by how good they are at penalty shootout yes you know it shows you they've given us so many great players so many great goals so many great mad moments so many great games they have given the world so much and here they were close to giving us the perfect complete performance in a final because they were so dominant. France were nowhere in this game. They were 2-0 up at halftime and the way they then managed the game in the second half was nearly magnificent.

12:45Because if you think about the first game of the tournament, they lose to Saudi Arabia and you're thinking, oh my goodness. Again, four years prior to that, we've seen them wobble and so on. And with the talent that they have, with main man Messi, they then get the victory against, I think it was Mexico in the next game. And this is where Scaloni comes in. When Scaloni got the job after their poor 2018 World Cup, he was a little bit like with Southgate taking over from England. He was one of those guys where people go, well, this is an uninspiring performance. They're hired from within. I mean, Maradona, who was still alive at the time, said he's unqualified.

13:19You know, he wouldn't even be able to direct traffic was one of the quotes that he said about Scaloni, which is quite remarkable

13:28Jim Campbell: just not comparable skill set well yeah doesn't matter if he can or can't but anyway but of course he takes over they win the 2019 Copa America as we say and then in the final but he gets the emotional state spot on and that's shown by that near perfect second half but of course he does give away the penalty they score and then Mbappe scores that amazing goal to make it to all and then it's almost like a friend of mine English guy lives in Argentina and he was saying all the media's like oh it's typical us we've blown it and even then when they go three to up in extra time they give away another penalty and then when the ball drops to Carlo Mouane's feet oh my goodness we've blown it Martinez makes a save one of the great saves brilliant save and then at the other end Lautaro Martinez who didn't have a great game actually missed a couple missed a couple in extra time has a header 50p Ed goes way wide oh well there was our chance so they almost went to type But of course in the penalty shootout, Ebi Martinez, it ends with a man humping the golden glove.

14:32Jim Campbell: That's how profoundly they turn that around. But that emotional state though, that I mentioned about under Scaloni, because when they beat Mexico in the group, I remember some video footage coming out of the dressing room, and they were all singing, they were all as one. And I remember thinking, you've still got to get a result. But of course they were like, no, we've got it. we're there yeah and they showed that again against the Netherlands in the knockouts 2-0 up cruising Netherlands score two late goals they have to do it on penalties they get it done they're helped by Croatia because Croatia knock out Brazil and we were robbed of an Argentina-Brazil semi but you know the Croatians they know how to do their stuff and then in the final that emotional state as I say what is really interesting is when is it Montiel who scores the penalty they don't they do go mad but first tears yes and then the madness and I think that that whole kind of disciplined approach and everything what it meant to them that was what I found fascinating Montiel takes his shirt off but actually he's still quite relatively speaking reserved because that emotion has just hit him like a runaway freight trainer in the face it's like they want to be in the moment yeah and it just it's tears and then the trophy humping and everything kind of continues after that now the humping will begin exactly What a ride.

15:54I know, I know. And those scenes in Buenos Aires as well.

15:58Marcus Speller: Yeah, yeah. I think the cool thing about it is you touched on it at the very start about Messi's difficult relationship with Argentina and this idea that he was more of a Europhile than he would ever be in Argentina. That was, you know, a genuine point at some stage, particularly early on when, you know, Spain tried to coax him over to their side. Yeah, naughty. Yeah. Understandable. Imagine doing that. But the cool thing was that, you know, a lot of people during Messi's heyday would go back, go to Argentina and basically try and uncover the story of Messi. And they always found they would get nowhere because no one was willing to, I suppose, meet him more than halfway to be like, he is representing us over there and he does great things for Argentinian football as a, you know, as a symbol as it were, but he doesn't really give anything back.

16:53Marcus Speller: And this was quite a cool moment of not only giving something back but also his teammates realising as well that we're as valuable in this as he is and he does need us. And as you said about Scaloni and the team spirit, I think a lot of that was because also the stage that Messi was in his career is as equal as they're all going to get. You know, coming together for that final. You talk about the team goal. one player who because Messi loses the ball for France's second goal doesn't he so like it was like oh my god yeah it was like and it's everyone's mistake really rather than just his yeah but the one player who in a different team is the star who's like not only just incredibly skilled but so hard working Di Maria had a brilliant game he's also you know knocking on in years at this time yeah exactly

17:44Jim Campbell: and he did that brilliant finish where really top players do this where they just hit the ball into the ground and you don't actually even notice until the replay. Yeah, Mesut Ozil. Yeah, very much so. Oh man, yeah, it was quite something that. And yeah, you look back at it again, the Argentina fans, the way they turned up on Messi, it was their tournament. And I look back and I think, yeah, I'm glad England were beaten in the quarters by France rather than the final by Argentina.

18:13Marcus Speller: Thanks for skying that penalty, Harry. Yeah. But no, but Messi, you know, and you saw him again. You remember those scenes in the restaurant when he was back in Argentina and everyone just outside? And they almost just wanted to say, you are one of us, thank you, sort of thing. Because that's the greatest individual performance in a World Cup. Probably, I don't know, you go back to what, 2002 Ronaldo from Brazil? You think 94 Baggio, but of course he didn't end up on the winning side. And then of course you have to go back to 86 with El Diego himself. The little big man. Incredible that Maradona wasn't alive.

18:45He wasn't alive to see Napoli win the league either.

18:48Marcus Speller: He's probably down there looking up at it all.

18:56I've had a great time. Yeah, have a wonderful time. He's taken charge of the whole thing. Fair to say, fair to say, he would have been worse for wear the morning after.

19:14gentlemen I would like to bring a quarterfinal match from the 1998 World Cup to the table it does involve our friends Argentina as well it's Netherlands 2 Argentina 1 and this game is obviously remembered for one of the great goals of all time that won the game yeah Frank De Boer's pass is really the story it's yeah the Dennis Burkham or he takes a touch

19:38Marcus Speller: and shoots well done right and yeah so clearly it's first time if you're that good if I may obviously we remember it for Dennis Burkham's goal but it was a fantastic game of football and the 1998 World Cup I always bang this drum in terms of star names in teams it is head and shoulders I mean the two sides I won't need to read every name out but just a big handful from both sides. You've got Edwin van der Sar in goal and you've got Michael Reisinger, Yapstam, Frank De Boer at the back, Edgar Davids, Ronald De Boer, Philip Cocu, Dennis Bergkamp and Patrick Kluiver up front. It's that great Ajax team once it's come of age.

20:20Marcus Speller: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, over miles comes on as well and in Argentina, Javier Zanetti, Roberto Ayala at the back, Roberto Sensini in midfield. You've got Diego Simeone. Oh, haven't you just? Yes, you have. Juan Sebastian Varon, Ariel Ortega in his hair. and up front, Claudio Lopez and Gabriel Batistuta. You know, it's a very, very tasty squad. Gus Hiddink is the manager of the Dutch. Daniel Passarella is the manager of Argentina. Even the managers of big names. It's very Marvel versus DC. It is a bit, yeah.

20:48Jim Campbell: Sorry, I'm just on a nostalgia high. Can you keep saying these names? I'd pay for this.

20:54Marcus Speller: And also as well... There should be a phone line you should call if he was just reading out teams from the 98 World Cup. If there's a man for that job, it's got to be me. It has to be me. But the great thing about the World Cup in general was, as you say, it was like panning around the audience at the Oscars. Yeah. You're like, everyone's meant to be here. Everyone who should be here is here. Yeah. The only ones you would say by their standards who had, even though the names would be big, would be Germany. You know, Age Inside and whatnot. But look, still starting. And everyone can get behind that.

21:25Yeah, exactly. And frankly, who cares? In the 90s, it was just like, can you just give us a break from you, please? Indeed. Indeed. We had to alarm Croatia to do it. Yeah. With Davos Suka and co. Again, star names in that side. But these two, they're two of the great World Cup teams, I think. You know, they obviously played each other in the 1978 World Cup final where Argentina won that tournament. Controversially, shall we say, we'll leave that there. But they've got previous and they've also in the tournament, we mentioned it in the game in the final when Argentina beat them on penalties. There's no love lost between these two.

21:59and this game if you watch it back you know it's there's again full-blooded tackles and all the rest of it and again though just even the kits the Dutch kit is so iconic the Argentino it just pops

22:13Jim Campbell: yeah I mean it just looks arguably gorgeous the two most iconic international kits other than Brazil yeah and maybe the blue Italy but they're definitely among the top ones I think both of those are more so than Italy just because they're so visually striking true yeah I mean I love the Argentina they're beautiful and they look fantastic oh here we go but the game yeah there's so much quality so it wasn't as free score you know didn't have the six goals as in the previous one you've only got the three but it was pulsating and I think with the quality on the show every time someone goes oh you know it was a real at moments game it's just there were chances and there were two sendings off incredibly so Argentina sorry the Netherlands take the lead and it's a it's a lovely goal the assist from Dennis Bergkamp which is a portent of things to come isn't it yeah the way he assists Patrick Kluiver who finishes very very neatly it's a lovely goal from again two superb forward players at the time Bergkamp and Kluiver and Argentina come back and score a goal which at the time people were like oh was he offside well if you actually look at the goal it slipped through to Claudio Lopez who's in acres of space oh my goodness it's ridiculous it looks like I'm obviously kind of drawing this equivalent because I was a lot younger at the time.

23:29Jim Campbell: It felt like it felt when you were suddenly through on goal over the park with your mates. Yeah. And you've just got acres of space to run into. I've got too much time to think about this, you know. And yeah, he goes through and you're thinking, well, he's going to stop because surely he knows he's offside. And actually he waits and waits, goes really close to van der Sar and then kind of tucks it through him. But if you watch the replays, he's well onside. It's a really poor line from, I can't remember if it's Michael Reisker on that side, But he tries to play offside about two seconds too late.

23:57And then he goes and scores. So it's nicely poised at 1-0. And then into the second half, again, in the searing sunshine of the French summer, it's like, what's going to happen here? And Batistuta, the great Batigal, has a moment where he neatly gets the ball, lovely touch past the defender, and thumps it. And it cannons back off the post. and by his standards, he probably should score even though he's terribly unlucky and I'm very, very reluctant to criticise Batistuta in any kind of form but if he scores that, it would have been such a great goal. He's hit it with pace. He's hit that as if to say, right, I'm going to knock you out now.

24:38We're going through. And when it cannons back on the pace, I was quite shocked. I thought the great man's missed the chance there. Anyway, blah, blah, blah, blah. Again, it's pulsating. It's a good save and there's a chance and this, there's so much pressure. And then Arthur Newman gets himself sent off. The red cards are both amazing. But he's a second yellow and he scythes down Diego Simeone who just rolls

25:00Jim Campbell: and rolls and rolls. The Argentinians love it, don't they? It's the archetype of that kind of over-the-top play acting, isn't it? Because he does at least four more rolls than he's credible. With everyone he's shouting, did you see that? Did you see that? If anyone hit you hard enough to cause you to roll like that, you would be dead. Yeah, totally. Totally. And I mean, Ariel Ortega, who we'll mention in a moment, he's taken a little, a late 90s treatment, we'll call it, from the Dutch. You know, they're making sure that he's not wriggling into space and so on because he was such a fine player.

25:34And he'd hit the post from about 25 yards earlier on.

25:36Marcus Speller: Yeah, do you remember leading into that World Cup, he was their guy? Yes, he was. It's ludicrous to say about that Argentinian team that you read out on. He was the next Maradona. I mean, they always had the next Maradona, didn't they? Do you remember the Nike advert? Yes, I do. But the poster? Yeah. Do you remember the hand of God? Here's the rest of him. Yes. I know.

25:52Jim Campbell: So that's why, yeah, Ortega.

25:53Marcus Speller: And the look as well. Yes.

25:55Jim Campbell: And his name as well. A lot goes into making a superstar. Yes, yeah. And he had the aesthetic and all of it really, really worked. Oh, it was incredible. So Argentina are then a man up with about 15 minutes to go. And Ortega thinks, right, we're going to have him here. I'm going to shit else our way to the next round because we're Argentina. we can't get through so he goes past Yapstam in the box and he does that dive where he leaves his leg in and essentially kicks Yapstam and goes down

26:23Marcus Speller: does a little spin as well and you have to remember there wasn't any VAR back then now I know VAR's not perfect and you know doesn't always get the right decision but when it's as blatant as that nowadays you think oh well that should be picked up the referee gets it spot on gives him a yellow card and Edwin van der Sarge stands over all six foot six of him or whatever he is stands over and starts mouthing him off and Ortega thinks you know what I'm going to do? I'll get a cheeky headbutt in. Yeah. He's so big and as he stands he sort of heads him underneath the chin. Yeah. A different uppercut headbutt.

26:54Marcus Speller: Exactly yeah. And the referee sees it

26:56Jim Campbell: and sends him off and it's ten aside. The great thing about that though is that Ortega thinks he's being really smart with the dive and then he just walks straight into the trap that Van der Sarse set for him. Which is incredible. Which for an Argentinian it's kind of like no it should be the other way round you know but the Dutch know the other way around the football pitch. So it's ten aside and then it just calms down for a moment and then as you said earlier, Frank De Boer. That raking ball from Frank De Boer that this game is remembered for. Rakes one right to the corner of the box, of course, Dennis Bergkamp.

27:28The touch is outrageous. He jinx it past Roberto Ayala, a fine defender. Yeah, one of the greats of his day. A brilliant defender and he knocks it, takes it down, beautifully knocked down by Bergkamp as Barry Davis says in the commentary. oh what a goal and I love Barry Davis for so many reasons mainly being a good commentator and he just he just goes that was absolutely brilliant and absolutely right because it was a stunningly good goal and the game of that magnitude of that quality needed something great you don't want a mistake you want something great to win it and of course Argentina having knocked England out in the previous round and the way they celebrated in front of the England players and so on.

28:16As an Englishman, I don't think there's been many goals scored by non-Englishmen at World Cup. I was like, I'm celebrating. I mean, Jonathan Pearce on the radio, I think the commentary was, Benes Bergkamp has knocked Argentina and good bloody riddance.

28:31Jim Campbell: He was at Arsenal by that time. Of course. And I was beaming. Absolutely beaming. Couldn't get enough of that. It was such a great goal. It's still one of the great goals ever. And the Dutch commentary sums it up best because it's just a man losing his mind going, Dennis Bergkamp, Dennis Bergkamp, Dennis Bergkamp. It's all you need to know.

28:52Marcus Speller: There is one, it is one of those goals where the quickness of it is lost on replays, obviously. It's one of those, watch it in full speed all the way through. But I think it's one of the best slow motion replays of a goal. is behind the goal. I know the one. And it's focused on Burkamp. You can't see the goal. And it's just all the touches. And after he shoots, it focuses on his face. Yeah, I know the one. And you see it go in, in his eyes, basically. It covers his face with both hands. Yeah. In a sense of... I can't believe I've done that. I know. He's Dennis Burkamp and he can't believe he's done that.

29:35But the type of goal as well, he's probably the only forward at the time. Again, the manner of it. Don't get me wrong. the great Ronaldo as I mentioned Battistucci you know star names but I think that type of goal Bergkamp in one sense he's not he's not got the kind of flashy feet that say Ronaldo Nazario does or like Ronaldinho would have but he has the command of a football one of the best commands of football I've ever seen I still use him as a reference point I would still say and I will always say Bergkamp yeah sure

30:07Marcus Speller: yeah the it's like Like, if his touch was so perfect, he didn't need the frills. Totally. It was like, I've completed touches, basically. I was thinking of the Leicester City goal, I think, for Arsenal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Part of the hat trick. Yeah. Yeah.

30:20Jim Campbell: And that's why I will always believe that he meant the goal against Newcastle. I read his book, Stillness and Speed, and he talks about how he never actually scored his perfect goal, which involved flicking it up over his head and then taking a defender out with one foot and doing something else and volleying it. And I love that he had that in mind. Yeah. He had those moves in mind. Yeah. Well, Dennis, if you're listening, to me, that was a perfect go. Yeah.

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32:39Jim Campbell: Of course I see my co-worker in light at the pharmacy. Can you tell I'm picking up prescription hemorrhoid cream? I'm probably standing weird. Why is he smiling? He knows. He's going to call me hemorrhoid Lloyd tomorrow. I know it. I got to quit my job. Next time, avoid awkward conversations and get fast free delivery with Amazon Pharmacy. Healthcare just got less painful.

33:11Marcus Speller: So I'm bringing, let's say, a predictable offering to the table. Okay. It's Brazil 1, Germany 7. Oh, man. the 2014 World Cup semi-final and I mean it's one of the most astonishing semi-finals of any sport I'm going to say I think the emotion behind Brazil as hosts and the consensus that you touched on before Marcus about you know the run of European World Cup winners and what they felt was owed to them even though it's only 12 years after they won it the fact they had a central figure in Neymar who, you know, it felt like there was always the new Pele. There was always one superstar. Even in that 2002 side, it was, you know, the great Ronaldo.

34:03Marcus Speller: But for Neymar to have fractured his vertebrae in the quarterfinal against Colombia, there was so much more emotion going into it. I don't know if you remember, but when Brazil walk out for the game, they're all holding each other. Yeah, and they were holding up Neymar's shirt. Yeah, yeah. Which was astonishing, really, when you think about it. I mean, I know he was obviously an important player for them, but he wasn't like Messi was for Argentina in 2022. Yeah. But the emotions of it, they got the emotions totally wrong. But he was a totem of hope, wasn't he? Because when they go, like pre-match, before the referee kicks everything off in Belo Horizonte, there is something quite religious about the atmosphere.

34:42Marcus Speller: I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's something about like an expectation that everyone in that ground with a yellow shirt is about to be healed in some way. I know what you mean.

34:55Jim Campbell: It's a festival, isn't it? Yeah. You're right, you're right.

34:58Marcus Speller: And they end up getting sent to hell. Yeah. Because it's, you know, obviously we re-watched these games to prepare for this. I watched the extended highlights of this game and I appreciate the scoreline tells a pretty accurate story, but it's easy to forget how bad Brazil actually were. Oh yeah. That struck me when I watched the highlights back as you did. You don't need to be reminded how bad Brazil were. And I watched the highlights and I was like, oh, this is way worse than I remember.

35:30Jim Campbell: It's actually a little bit surreal, isn't it? It doesn't look like the highlights of any other game at that level ever. It looks like a group of people who are just completely lost and at sea and are almost not even in their own bodies. The only thing I can liken it to is, and it's not even, if that's San Marino at Wembley and England win 7-0 or something, the defending is more intense than that. Do you know what I mean? The only thing I can liken it to is if you've ever seen a testimonial for a particular player and that player, at the end of the game, they go, come on, it's his testimony, he should score.

36:07And then they sort of pretend to kind of jockey him and they basically let him score. That's it. that's the only thing I can liken it to which for a World Cup semi-final is mad yeah for any professional football

36:21Marcus Speller: the way they were moving was in the way that you would describe a bad dream like I felt like I was running but I wasn't moving I was trying to touch the ball but I couldn't get it under control and nobody knew what their roles were either you could see have you ever seen that playing recreational football on a Sunday morning or Saturday morning I've never if I was standing up front and I was like what are you doing wake up like what And 5-0 down they were. That period of... 29 minutes, yeah. Was it a five or six minute period? They go a goal down after, what is it, 12 minutes?

36:49Jim Campbell: And that goal is a portent of doom. Yeah. And I think it's worth interjecting here on that. Because Müller scores. It's Germany's first corner. He's in loads of space. And it's a tap-in for a player of his quality. And the defending on it is so amateurish. After that goal, they're all looking around at each other going, either where did he come from or who was meant to be picking it? him up. Was it me? Was it you? What's going on here? And that was essentially the tone of the rest of that half in particular.

37:16Marcus Speller: Yeah, the disbelief starts at 1-0. It's not when, you know, Kadira and Tony Cruz are playing 1-2s in the box and making it 4-0. The disbelief starts at 1-0. Yeah. They missed Neymar. They bloody missed Thiago Silva. Yes. But look at the back line. The goalkeeper's Julio Cesar. Champions League winner. Although at the time he was on loan at Toronto FC from QPR. It's a fair point. Life comes at you fast. Fine. Okay. I take that. But he's ultimately a Champions League winner. He's an experienced player. But fine. Right back Mike on. Knows Cesar is a Champions League winner. Centre-halves David Luiz who would win Premier League titles and I know he had a bit of a rick in him but Dante as well.

38:01Another one. Played in a Champions League final. Yeah.

38:04Marcus Speller: Bundesliga stalwart. Right. Marcelo. One of the finest full-backs.

38:07Jim Campbell: They're all players though with what you know, modern football fans call the Bozo gene, aren't they? All of them. So this is post Gareth Bale, my comp, right? Okay, look, I understand there's a bit of age there, but come on. Like, my point is these are experienced players. And when they go two nil down, it's like, right, regroup, take your medicine, just get, even if it's that bad, get to half time. But don't all of you have a lobotomy and switch off. Sure. Because the goals that then come, it's not even training ground. It is literally men versus babies. 2-0 down, Miroslav Klose takes Ronaldo's scoring record at the World Cup.

38:49Jim Campbell: Which is a piss take, absolutely correct term. But for me, it's the third goal. Because when you look at the highlights, obviously the players are stunned. But you look around at the crowd and they quite literally, it appears, do not believe what they're seeing. They don't know how to process it. They're all looking around at each other for support and for someone to tell them it's a bad dream and that there's some way out of this. And it's increasingly clear that this is a disaster on a scale they've never seen before. It would be like they're Romans in the Coliseum and they're seeing the Roman Empire crumble in front of their very eyes.

39:24And they go, how does life go on after that? This can't compute. I don't get it. It's extraordinary.

39:31Marcus Speller: Germany actually stop attacking when it's 3-0 because the fourth goal is when the ball's played back to Fernandinho and he just lets it run. And Cruz kind of gets him off the ball, plays up one-two to Kadira. And after the fourth goal, the producers are picking up people in the crowd. Yeah. And they pick up Fred on the pitch talking to Oscar and he starts talking to him and his lip goes. Yeah. And it's quite harrowing to see, you know, someone in that setting. Yeah. Like, he's computing it in real time now. He's almost broken out of being in a football match and being a footballer, being someone who can make a difference there.

40:13Marcus Speller: He may as well be in the stands. The legacy effect of this. It's a total nightmare. Honestly, I think that if you could raise a white flag in a football match and go, yeah, no, no, we're done. I think they probably wanted that. Hulk is still playing, and I think that's so he doesn't have to process this. Maybe. I've never seen anything like it. It was eerie to watch. it was yeah like your dad getting his pants pulled down on TV like it was just awful that's a great way of putting it that's actually a great your dad being beaten up by your school bully yeah oh dad it was yeah there's elements to this at least fight back dad yeah oddly though mum you get involved no not mum as well she's been mum's been bogged wash she's been bogged wash but He's kissing my mum now.

41:06Oddly, though, there were a few minutes at the start of the second half where Brazil actually should score. They have like a handful. And then fucking Neuer just said, no, not today. They have a few chances. He makes a brilliant double save from Paulinho. Yeah, even then I was like, could they get to 5-2? No. And then André Schürrle was a bit like, can I get involved?

41:30Jim Campbell: Yeah, and fair play to André Schürrle because he's scored against Brazil in a World Cup semi-final when they've gone on to win that World Cup. He could have gone, all right, let's show some respect. But he's actually gone, no, no, I want my name in the history book.

41:41Marcus Speller: He was absolutely gagging for it when he came on. But with Germany's seventh goal, do you feel he's just gone, ah, I'll just hit this. Oh, it's gone in off the bar. It is our day. He goes in off the bar at the near post. He shins it. It's a ridiculous effort. Yeah. It makes no sense to shoot from there. Who there says, oh, it's gone off the bar. Yeah. Yeah, I just had to, you know, take the chance because, you know, we don't know if we'd get another opportunity. Are you joking? You'd be not me watching. You'd be fine. But the German players, some of them said, you know, after this game and after the tournament, even at halftime, they were like, let's just we can't embarrass them anymore.

42:20Marcus Speller: I don't know. Did you see? So when they walk off at halftime, Podolsky is there and like they're clearly like. Nil, nil, lads. Nil, nil. That was really good. Like talk amongst themselves as they walk off. clearly just like fucking hell we're through to the final and they're being very respectful so I was handing everyone water like fucking brilliant, great I can't believe that, it's amazing so good no swapping shirts full time now you loser the only I mean barely a silver lining was that Argentina lost the final I remember one or two of the journalists saying some of the Brazilians after the final were like yeah at least Argentina didn't win the final because they kept singing that song didn't they the Argentina fans Brazil can you feel it and when they were there and they got to the final if they'd have beaten Germany look it's embarrassing they can't get away from that we've talked about that but if Argentina it would have been an enormous amount of cherries on top of the cake for Argentina and they were they were spared any more insults I suppose I don't know what a it's perhaps I think you can make an argument it's the most unique game of football I've ever watched yeah as you said at the start I think especially at that level I don't know if you remember but Miguel Delaney was out in Brazil covering this World Cup and he ended up seeing quite a few of Brazil's early games and he said that there's something about them that one team is really going to take them apart yeah they're just a bit too freewheeling there's a brittleness there yeah there's almost a proper glass jaw yeah and there's like elements of them the sleepwalking thing they got away with not having a particularly structured defence obviously you name the players and they are impressive but they didn't see any actual like cohesion any framework that they were working working with and I think he called it in the group stages like someone's going to seriously do a number on Brazil well it was just I think it was all about the emotion yeah I think you know big Phil Scolari was brought back wasn't he to try and get them going because before the World Cup I think was it right they were chopping and changing management they were not happy with this one and that one and it was like right and he was like I'll just I will we will emotionally get our way all the way and Germany it's fair to say burst the bubble on that

44:43Jim Campbell: the pressure that they put on themselves going into it because of what the World Cup means to Brazil and because of what happened in the previous World Cup that was hosted in Brazil where they had a surprise loss to Uruguay wasn't it in the final when they they had assumed that they were going to win it. And that was almost like the worst thing that ever happened to the country, the way that was treated. So they wanted to avenge that with a World Cup on home soil. And obviously you had the situation of hyping Neymar up to be this kind of talismanic figure. His injury sort of adds to this feeling.

45:17Jim Campbell: And essentially they were kind of living this like it was a fairy tale rather than reality. Yeah. I mean, the only bone that you could throw to Brazil would be that not that long after this, they play, they have the Olympics there and they play the Olympic men's football final. They play Germany. It goes to penalties. Neymar scores the winning penalty. And in Europe, it's not seen as a huge deal, but that was the one.

45:44Marcus Speller: That was the elusive one, wasn't it? It was the elusive one. They did that. How much that goes to patch things up, I don't know. But, oh man, that was quite something. We mentioned Miroslav Klose. Of course, he got his 16th World Cup goal, making him the all-time scorer in the Men's World Cup. And we'll be speaking about Miroslav on the next episode of Games Gone. Thank you very much for listening to Games Gone, a Football Ramble series exclusively available on Amazon Music. Join us next month for another World Cup edition of Games Gone, where we're celebrating three of the tournament's greatest ever goal scorers.

46:16In the meantime, remember that you can listen to every episode of the Football Ramble ad-free with your Prime membership. Make sure you're following us on X, TikTok, Blue Sky, Instagram, and YouTube by searching Football Ramble. We'll see you next time.

46:36Jim Campbell: The Football Ramble is a Stack Production and part of the Acast Creator Network.

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