Natasha's Human (aka Comedian Carolyn Taylor)

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1:01I'm Jen Morose, and this is Furball Confidential. My guest today is not a cat, but she has played one on TV. Only one ticket?

1:13Carolyn Taylor: It's my birthday today. Oh, that's really hard to know today. So hard to know. It's my anniversary next week? You don't get out very much. I think we should be fair, you know, decide who likes cats the most. That is award-winning actor, writer, showrunner, and comedian Carolyn Taylor fully dressed as a cat fighting for free tickets to see the musical Cats. She's also played a person busted at work for looking at too many kitten pictures and she's played a vet who treats cats. Little two-cat chaper is not a happy camper right now. Mommies, any problems, concerns, any issues I should be aware of?

1:51Those are all scenes from the very funny Baroness Vaughn sketch show. Carolyn is one of the creators and stars. Her one-of-a-kind sense of humor is also on full display in her recent series, I Have Nothing. So I'm choreographing a professional gold medal level figure skating routine to Whitney Houston's I Have Nothing.

2:10Carolyn Taylor: Wait, so you're a choreographer? I'm not a choreographer. Can you skate? I've been on skates. Carolyn is not really a choreographer or even a skater, but she is a true lover of cats. And I know this firsthand because I have known Carolyn a long time. We're talking high school debating. So I've seen Carolyn through a few cats, including her latest, Natasha, who she swore she was absolutely not going to keep. You know how that goes.

2:44Carolyn, it is so good to have you here and to have you on a podcast about your love of cats. Oof, yes. Deep love, Jen. Well, you know, deep love, deep love. I know it's a deep love. And in fact, I wanted to, because you just brought a new cat into your life. And I remember you and I had a conversation about this cat. Her name is Natasha. Yes. We had a conversation about Natasha when she was still named Phyllis Jane. Do you remember that conversation we had? Oh, Jen, I'm pretty sure you recorded it. I did. I'm pretty sure I fostered Phyllis Jane, and I said, I'm never going to adopt her. You said, yes, you will.

3:34And I'm like, there's not a chance. And you said, how about if I just roll video on you for a second? And you did. And I just swore up and down. And I actually said, I think quite straight face. I was like, I will not be adopting her. I will make sure she is adoptable and then I will send her on her way. That's right. But I know as a fun little thing for this podcast, like the actual tape, we were in a very crowded space when we were having this conversation. So the tape is like a little bit hard to hear. But what I did is I transcribed the conversation. Oh, no. And I just sent you, if you just check your email.

4:13Oh, no. You can look at the script and we're just going to, you know, I thought it'd be fun to reenact the conversation. Are you up for that? Okay. Yeah, sure. Okay. So this is after I've fostered Natasha or Phyllis Jane. So you've been fostering Natasha. Yeah. And so I ask you, so tell me about this cat. Is it just a foster? Shut up. For how long, Carolyn? I think it'll probably be a month is what I think the commitment is. And her name is Phyllis Jane. Beat. And she's a calico, long-haired. But I know you're setting me up to believe I'm going to keep her. I'm really not. I'm not setting you up.

4:56I'm just asking a simple question. You know, just in case it's handy somewhere in the future. Ha, ha. I can't have a cat. One month.

5:09That was a pretty decent read. That was a pretty good, like that was a cold read. You did really well. Thank you. But I think that was like, we said a month, but that was several months ago. What changed? Well, I mean, listen, I was convinced I was getting a foster. I wasn't even going to have a cat. I have friends who were volunteering at a cat rescue in Prince Edward County. And they said, can you adopt? Can you adopt? I was like, no, no, I'm not ready. I don't want a cat. I just don't want a cat. I'm not up for it. And, um, but then I woke up one night in April last year and, um, I was like, there's something I can do.

5:47Like I'll foster. This is my contribution. Oh, the foster trap. I know it well. It was like, uh, and so I said to them, I'm going to foster. And they said, okay, do you want to come to the place and, you know, take a look at all the cats? I said, no, I'm not choosing a cat because I'm not keeping her. So just you choose. I don't care who you choose. I'll take the foster and I'll help them get acclimatized, you know, and be ready for adoption. And they chose Phyllis Jane, named after Christina's mom. And Phyllis Jane arrived and she was so scared. She didn't eat for five days. She hid under the bed.

6:24She wouldn't, she, she was the cat at the Humane Society who was like in the back hidden under blankets, you know, never going to get adopted, never going to come out, like just really terrified always. Um, and so I was like, sure, I'm a cat person, you know, she can live with me for a month or two and you know, I'll set her up. But of course she spent a lot of time under my bed and I got sort of carpet burn. I would, I would slide down to try to get close to her. My bed was close to the wall and like wedge in so that I could just reach her, her little cheek, you know, to sort of build pets and slowly, I'd spend, I actually kind of, I think, fell into a depression because I was spending so much time on the floor just with this cat.

7:07Like I just would lie there. I'd spend the afternoon or whenever I had a break, I'd go upstairs and just lie beside her and just spend time on the floor beside her or not even beside her, like with my arm reached under the bed, like trying to get my finger on her cheek. and then after maybe weeks maybe a month in she started to come out just and then maybe a month and a half by like July she was coming out a bit more and then she changed she started to you know purr and play and eat and then I fell in love and what are you supposed to do how do you take someone yeah how do you transform them and then say okay bye I know I mean you remember with me with clutch.

7:52Yeah. Remember like I went through the same thing where I'm like, oh my God, I'm falling for this dog that I told myself I would not fall for. Yeah. Like where you make a commitment. You're like, this is not the plan. I'm not falling for you. I don't care. It won't happen. You are not getting into my heart. No. Yeah. And then your friend transcribes your words and makes you read them back on a podcast. Well, sometimes it has to be documented. Yes. You know, that's right. Right. Thank you. And what about the name? Like it was Phyllis Jane after Christina's mom, but then Natasha, what, what made her a Natasha?

8:29Well, it's interesting. I, you know, when, and I did this with my previous cat too, like where you're sitting with them again, I'm spending a lot of time. She's finally coming out and I'm throwing names around and I felt it was three syllables. Like I kept trying different names and you're just sort of waiting to see if the name resonates. So it wasn't like a name I was planning to call her. It just, as I tried different names, I was like, hmm, what is this? Jennifer was even in there. I was like, Jennifer. What? I know. Don't listen. It didn't happen. Didn't happen, Jen. It could have. And then I finished, you know, Dostoevsky's The Idiot.

9:05And there was this character, this femme fatale. And Natasha, my cat is gorgeous, like beautiful. And femme fatale's name is Natasha Filipovna. And I was really taken with that name and this idea of like this cat who's like, come here, go away. Like Natasha's very like, I like you, no, I don't. You know, those first, you know, couple of months I'd come up to bed and that's the only time she'd decided to leave my room. She'd look at me and then leave. Like it was such a like, oh, you're here now? Bye. So I named her Natasha after Natasha Filipovna. Is there something about that come here, go away, that was, I don't know, part of the attraction to her.

9:45Like, I think we all are attracted to that in some ways, right? Like. I wonder. I wonder. I mean, that's, that's deep cat though, Jen. Like that's, you know, I think Talia is a cat person. Like that's just part of cat. Come here, go away. Oh, hi, I'm Talia, Furball Confidential Producer and proud cat person. I foster failed hard and adopted silky and sesame from abbey cats in toronto and i can confirm that whole come here go away thing that carolyn mentioned that is deep deep cat and they really it's a lesson in humility like you will think so little of yourself but the end of your time with a cat like they just can make you you know with one glance or one sort of recoil from your touch.

10:39You're just like, oh gosh, this is horrendous. That sounds like so appealing. It's really, you know, it's really, but when you win them over and they're finally there and they're purring, like she's now every morning, we have rituals, you know, she wants to run, she wants to play first thing, run downstairs, hops on the sofa. She loves books and pens. Like if I'm sitting with a book or a notebook or pen, she's like rubbing on the pen, like Elvira Kurt, she calls her, what is it, Perder she wrote. She's a mystery writer. The show would be called Perder she wrote. But she, you know, she always has, you know, like chewing on a pen or hanging with a book.

11:22Yeah, she loves that. Interesting. An intellectual cat. She's an intellectual cat. Yeah. Well, listen. Yeah, listen. You're an intellectual, so it stands to reason that you would have an intellectual cat um an intellectual cat who i might must say has like and you know i'm not a total cat person even though i've become more of a cat person um who has the best like meow we were just talking about it just before we started this conversation but like natasha has a remarkable now and we're just going to play just a little little bit of it right here See what I mean? Great meow. So great that Natasha's meow even made it into our theme song.

12:09You can hear it again on the way out. In general, Natasha is a very vocal cat. And I wanted to know what kind of conversation she and Carolyn had when no one else was listening. I think we have like mental convert like I think I was like come on baby come out from under here lie in the sun know what it's like to just be a cat and live the good life so I was trying to communicate that to her now sometimes she sits on my bed and she looks up at the doorway like this freaks me out at night like sort of looks up or looks up the stairs and you're like what are you looking at? I think she sees things.

12:47So that I'm like, what are you looking at? Like who else is in the room? You know, where it's not like a bug on the wall. It's like, what do you see? And what are you looking at? And there are theories that cats can see ghosts and spirits and this is an old house. So that conversation. Yeah. Be curious if any of your other listeners have cats that see ghosts or spirits or really, yeah. Well, I'm sure we're going to find out. So when people are listening to this, hit us up on Instagram and let us know if you've got a cat who can see ghosts.

13:24I want to talk to you a little bit about, like in Baroness, there are a bunch of sketches where cats showed up. Usually my cat. Or like in one of them, you were a cat. Oh, yes. The cat's one. There's another one where you play a doctor and then another character comes in with like scratches all over her face. Yes. And you ask. Were you trying to kiss your cat? Whatever. What? It's a simple question. What was it? Were you trying to kiss your cat? Like, I'm curious, have you, and you were kind of getting at it earlier with Natasha, where it's like, come here, go away. um like have you had any cat affection injuries oh god yeah like yeah I mean of course I have I mean I I the battle wounds I mean from my previous cat Eve who we will also talk about we can't have a conversation without Eve no and like I actually have and I still have flinchy reflexes now like I can move my hand back.

14:36Natasha, who's not a biter or a scratcher, she turns her head and I'm trained by Eve to like, just pull my hand back really fast. Like I'm a, I'm officially a flincher in life because of Eve. Like, so I actually have very good reflexes to avoid bites and scratches from anyone. Um, and, uh, you're really making the case for getting a cat right now. Yeah. And I was bit by an ex-girlfriend's cat once. And I had to go to the hospital and get a tetanus shot and everything. Yeah. Because it started to just get, you know, festery. And they call it like, well, there's cat scratch fever, but apparently with cat bites, I called my cousin who was a doctor and she's like, no, no, go to emerge.

15:18And sure enough, it was like antibiotics, tetanus shot, because it spreads. Yeah, cat bites are serious. There's something in their dirty little saliva. Yeah. And yet what is it about like, what is it about them then that keeps you going in for more and forgiving them? When you know you're just going to get scratched. The worst is Jen. I'm like an apologist. I'm like, it was my fault. I was rushing or it was my fault. I pet her too hard or it was my fault. Like that's literally how I am. I'm like, no, no, it was me. I did it. I did it. So that's, so whatever psychology. They're like master manipulators.

16:03They can cause damage and then make you think that you're responsible for it. Basically, basically. Yeah. So it's always been my fault. Jen, it's not them.

16:18I want to talk to you a little bit. Like you've, you've played a lot of different characters over the years. one of which is a witch when you were in Scaredy Cats. And in that show, like the young girl witches would transform into cats. And so, you know, you were talking a little bit earlier about Natasha and does she see ghosts? But like there's a big thing about that cat witch connection. Mm-hmm. And I wanted to like, I don't know, I wanted to ask you like what your thoughts were about that connection and what's it all about? I mean, I'd say in the cat-witch connection, for sure, black cat. And Eve, of course, was a black cat.

17:05You know, they're intuitive. They do have communication with the other side. They can also read a vibe, whereas, like, with respect to dog people, dogs are like bulls in China shop. They come in, you know, they're jumping on things, knocking things over. A cat is, you know, nimble, nimble. Yeah, exactly. Is, is nimble and, you know, can read a vibe and sort of like excuse themselves politely and also just use the washroom on their own. You know, like it's not all like bark, bark, I need to go out, bark, bark, who's at the door. It's like, come over, get pet, enjoy time. And I'd say that's kind of witchy to be able to read a vibe, you know, and sense.

17:49I mean, I know dogs have very good sense and, you know, can sense maybe a friend from a foe or whatever, but I think - Listen, I won't tell Clutch we're having this conversation. I love Clutch. But yeah, I'd say definitely, I'm sure there is, you know, history in it. I know in the tarot, the Queen of Wands sits on her throne with a black cat. And I used to, you know, kind of identify with that card a bit in the past and felt like the cat kind of looked like Eve, like a bit skinny, scraggly, black at her side, left or right-hand side. So yeah, history in the tarot. Yeah, I'd say certainly there's something.

18:31Okay.

18:37We've talked now a few times about Eve and I think it's now time to bring her into the full spotlight of this conversation because I don't think like I said before we can't have a conversation about you and cats without a conversation about Eve you and Eve I of course know all about Eve but can you can you tell us a little bit about Eve and how she came into your life um Eve was lived to be about probably we'll never know for sure maybe 23 24 I don't know I I had her about 20 years. I had her about 20 years and she'd already had a litter of kittens before. I think I got her at, what was she like two and a half?

19:19She was formed, you know, she was. Yeah. So let's say 22 years, 23 years old. I don't know. Who knows? We'll never know. She had one tooth battle scar when I got her. So we don't know a whole lot about Eve before Carolyn, but we do know that she was already a mom. And one of her kittens was adopted by Aurora Brown. who you might also know from Baroness Von Sketch Show. Aurora had Eve's son, William, who looked kind of like a raccoon, who had similar sort of much bigger but similar fur. And Eve was black and the mother. And she was like, you know, there's this cat. Oh, this is what happened. Yes, I was painting at the time.

19:58I'd been, you know, working with paints and doing acrylics and stuff. And, you know, sometimes you have these blobs of paint. And I had a black blob of paint and I shaped it into a little black cat. So there's this black cat with a tail and I just had it on my desk and I was like, oh, a little black cat. Within a week, Eve appeared. So within a week, Aurora said, do you want the mom? I said, sure. I went to meet her. There she was, this black cat. So it's like her little, I don't know, is it a totem or a daemon or something appeared before. Yes. Talk about witchy. Totally witchy. And so I was like, I wonder where I have this little black cat.

20:32And then there was little black cat. But she was, she was little. She was small. She was small. Big fur. She had big fur, a lot of personality. She was really, I mean, whereas Natasha is an indoor cat. Natasha is too beautiful to go outside. Like she's a kept cat. She stays at home. Whereas Eve was like, we made an agreement on our first day. It's like, you can go out. I had a cat door. I lived on the third floor of this walk-up apartment. And she had to leave by the balcony and jump down. Like, I don't even know. But she went running off. She found her way down. And we had that agreement. Like, when you sit out there on the balcony with the wind in your fur, I can't deny you that.

21:11Like, you are an outdoor cat. Eve was an outdoor cat and also a very scrappy cat. I remember visiting Carolyn and walking down her hallway, and Eve would hide somewhere along the way and just jump out at you when you least expected it. So one day, Carolyn concocted a plan to turn the tables on Eve. When I lived on Dundas Street, I had this really steep staircase from the kitchen up to the second floor. And there was sort of a door at the top of the stairs, kind of a very spooky, weird apartment. And she used to run up. If she knew I was coming up with dishes, I'm holding my dinner and stuff that I've made in the kitchen and I'm walking upstairs.

21:49She would run ahead, hide behind the door. I'd get to the top of the steep staircase and she'd go. And I'm like, Jesus, Kat, like, Oh my God. I know. And then, so one time I did try to do it to her. She was eating downstairs in the kitchen. I'm like, aha. So I crept up the stairs so she couldn't hear me or see me. I hid behind the door and I'm like, this is going to be my time. And then she came up and then I went, I jumped out and she just looked at me like, what the fuck is wrong? Like, just sort of like, what are you doing, man? Like, get out of there. That's not how you do it. No, no. She was not impressed but she was yeah she was a cool cool cat afraid of no one if you could imagine her as a human who would she be do you think i think she'd be like an aging actress in like a tattered fur coat like really skinny very little like no muscle mass people used to call her my friend Adrian would call her bone blanket.

22:55Like, it's just like, oh, or sock. She had the weight of like a sock on the bed. So bone blanket, like a really bony old lady with like a fur coat that's kind of matted and has like maybe one snaggle tooth, but with a face, a mother, only a mother could love. Like she, you know, and skinny, always skinny, very skinny cat, really didn't care about food, like probably like, you know, you know, someone who's like living on some tinned food, you know, in their house by themselves, that would be Eve, like actress, you know, with a veil over their face, you know, like in the Hollywood Hills. I think that would be Eve, but streetwise, you know, like I could call her from the balcony and be like, Eve, Eve.

23:40And she'd come running. I'd see her like run through a parking lot, jump over a fence, go under, through a hole in a broken wood crate or something like and find her way like bound upstairs like she was very responsive cat yeah and if and if I dream about her I still dream about her from time to time she always is with like she just runs beside me if I'm somewhere and I've gotta go somewhere I'm like and I never have to worry about her she just is always running near me like in a field or something. And yeah. Good cat.

24:16What would you say, uh, just like before we leave Eve for a second, but because she was such a big part of your life for so long, I didn't remember it was that quite that long, but what would you say that she taught you? Ooh. Well, I mean, I'd certainly say she was a witchy cat. So I'd say that human-animal connection, that ability to love deeply across species, you know, that love is not just for people. She was brave, fearless. so maybe a fearlessness and also that you don't have to be liked by everyone you know you know some people really didn't like her it's like okay well you're lost if you only see her that way too bad because my god the joy like actually I was with my therapist talking and you know when they do those exercises like go back to a time where you're happy and whatever.

25:25Yes. And the image I had was at that apartment, lying on my back on the sofa with Eve, lying on my stomach, like with her head up here, probably drooling a little, her long body. She was always on me. And just the calmness of that. I think there's a calm knowing that when you have like a true love or a true connection, it's like, it's unconditional. and they love you to the end and there is just something beautiful about that and you accept each other. I mean, these are all, I suppose, cliches, but, um, but they're not, some, some things are cliches for a reason, right? Because there is something there.

26:06Yeah. And yeah. That unconditional love, it's almost like, I, I don't know, like with humans, it's even hard to reach that. Sometimes it's like, you know, anything that you do, they're still gonna love you. They're still gonna. Yeah. Yeah. And in this case, it was the other way. I suppose anything she did, I mean, I was pretty good to her.

26:29Taught me that I can love difficult people. No, she's, she was, yeah, very special. I think all of that, the magic and the fun and that how fun animals are. Like they really are a riot and they're smart. And it's such a It's such a privilege to get to spend time with them, you know? And then the day when they have to go is like the worst day in the world. Do you think about, do you think about the day for Natasha or? Well, I think about Eve's, you know, yeah, last days. It was a long goodbye. And how horror, oh, it's just absolutely horrible. And then Natasha, because she's still so young, I try not to think about that.

27:14But I guess it's the price of entry, right? Like it's, but yeah. And then there is this little video about a place called Catland. Have you heard of this? Be worth playing potentially. And it's this animation of a cat getting a call from this other place called Catland. And they're like, come, come to Catland. Meow, meow, to Catland. And then it's this little song about this cat traveling through, you know, cat riding a bicycle. and this cat rides a bicycle and takes a spaceship and rides on a hot air balloon or whatever to get to Catland and then all the cats are there and they all live together in Catland.

27:51We can see a cat riding on a horse. We can see a cat riding in his bicycle. Looking for a country, gold Catland, where all the cats live. So once you find it's at the end And so anytime a friend of mine, you know, loses a cat, I always send the video and just as like a little reminder, you know, and I watch it from time to time that they're all vibing together. You know, there's a greater cat consciousness and somewhat a joy to tap into that cat consciousness, you know.

28:31okay so i feel like we're going back to deep cat and as i mentioned before i'm not like i am i've come around to cats but i'm more a dog person and you're a big time dog i'm i'm big time dog okay but i like you know i've come around on cats haven't i a little bit sure but listen i'm going to bring in as you pointed out talia talia schlanger who is also the amazing producer for podcast, for Furball Confidential, a resident cat expert. And I'd like to bring her on right now, just in case I have missed anything important in deep cat world. Hey, Talia. Hello. I'm just wondering whether you have anything to ask, Carolyn.

29:17I had always thought that I was a dog person who just didn't have dogs until I started fostering kittens. And when I did, I was single at the time and a friend was like, oh, you're in your crazy cat lady years. And I was so offended. I was like, it ruined my day. And I had to like do a little unpacking on the thinking of that, but I'm wondering if you have any, you had such an insightful thought about the witch and cat connection. I'm wondering if you have any insights on that trope and whether it drives you crazy as much as it drives me crazy. Yeah, it really does. Like, what was it like? Was it like J.D.

29:54Vance talking about like, oh, the crazy single cat lady and like childless cat lady? I'm like, get out of here. First of all, like the joy that they bring and the contemplation and just some quiet in the world, you know, that is a vibration that's not, again, with respect to dogs, dogs are wonderful, but is not loud and big. That's actually, you know, moving at a different vibration. And if we can all like tune into that with our pets, whatever they are, dogs or cats, I mean, that's a gift to all of us. And I just think it's so rude. I mean, that is so rude to say that. And the crazy cat, I mean, crazy.

30:34Well, I mean, who knows? Yeah, that's, I mean, that's a beholder. I can't really, can't really escape that. Lady's not my favorite word for something a little more gender neutral. but I do I have made the observation that cat people tend to spend more time at home and dog people spend it prefer to spend time out in the world outside the home is this true do you this is my feeling so maybe as we age and we're just actually enjoying our own company a little more and enjoying our own homes and the way we do things maybe that does make us more idiosyncratic and um and cats vibe with that they're happy to have you home whereas dogs are like get me out let's go and I know a lot of people who want to make friends so they get a dog like to meet people in the dog park whereas we're like I'm good I've got enough friends how about yeah I know I know enough people and you like so you're exclusive is what you're saying yeah basically discerning discerning discerning okay discerning yes yes that's what it is that's what cats are they're discerning it's also what you said carolyn i love that i hadn't thought about that but they can go to the bathroom when they want and they'll do it in dignity and in privacy and they don't need to ask anybody and there is something very discerning about that they will only let you see what they want you to see um if they're not well they'll hide themselves lest you know that they have a a weakness to be exposed.

32:01They're just wonderful. I'm a bit like that too. If I'm not doing well, I kind of go off on my own. I'm a little cat-like. If something's wrong, I don't want to ruin the party. I'd rather just go out and make a little quiet exit and be on my own. That's how I think my final days, I'll just go under the sofa. I don't know. Listen, this is just... I'd prefer not to think about your emotional demise. We just really went into a dark place. No, but like, don't worry. I'm not going under the couch anytime soon. But like, I'd probably just like, oh, I haven't seen her in a while. And then somebody text somebody that Cat World video.

32:43Yeah, yeah, the Cat Land video. Yeah, Cat Land. And Carolyn's got to Cat Land. May it be many years away. Yeah, yeah, many, many. Let's say many, many. But yeah. okay well listen i am going to um i think we're gonna wrap up um it's been so much fun carolyn thank you such a pleasure to be here and here's yeah yeah that's i was gonna do my first cat's meow that was tramp tramp's meow it's beautiful yeah that was so good that was her and eve's was

33:19and you already have natasha now natasha's just like like like it's something like that bye guys

33:35thanks carolyn no doubt someday i'll be waving at you in catland from somewhere over in dogland by the way if you're curious about that catland video and we know you are We'll link to it in our show notes for you. Baroness Von Sketch Show is streaming on CBC Gem and Peacock. And to watch Carolyn choreograph that Olympic level skating routine, I Have Nothing is available on Crave and Peacock 2. Carolyn's also starring in the new season of Plan B out on CBC Gem now. To keep up with everything she's doing, follow her on Insta. She's at CarolynTaylorOfficial. And before we go, we ask Carolyn for her favorite pet related cause.

34:15She said the Loyalist Humane Society in Prince Edward County, which is where she adopted Natasha. The house, the giant house that has all these apartments for cats, old cats, infirmed cats, young spry cats, cats with behavioral issues, whatever it is. They all live in these separate apartments and it's all volunteer run. That's it for this episode. If you're liking the show, tell all the cats in your neighborhoods and the dogs. We don't need to choose. Or drop us a review and give us a follow. It all helps.

34:49Furball Confidential is created and hosted by me, Jen Moroz. Our producer is Talia Schlanger. She and David Travers-Smith co-created our theme music with Brian Kobayakawa on bass. Video and sound design and editing are all done by Reza Daya. Danny Stover does our social media. Our show artwork is by Adrian Foro. And on audience development, we have Marina Hanna. And thanks, as always, to the original inspiration for this podcast, Clutch. I'm Jen Moroz. See you next time on Furball Confidential.

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