Canned Tomatoes and the Myth of the San Marzano

22:12Nicola Twilley:Almost every other tomato at the time had a joint in the stem not far from the fruit. It meant that when you picked the fruit, a little bit of the stem would come off with it and that was another thing that had to be removed in the canning process. It was also a pokey thing that would stick into other tomatoes in the harvest bucket and those holes would lead to rot. Basically, all bad. But the Galapagos tomato didn't have that joint in the stem and so the tomato would just come off cleanly right at the fruit. This jointless pedestal gene wasn't something Charlie was specifically looking for, but it was very handy because one of his colleagues at UC Davis, this guy called Jack Hanna, he had decided he wanted to optimize the tomato harvest.

22:51Nicola Twilley:And this was one of the issues he needed to fix. He was a Texas-born, you know, farm kid who was just totally unsentimental about farming and, you know, was all about efficiency. But he had this idea to create a harvestable, you know, mechanically harvestable tomato. At the time, nobody really took Jack seriously. Tomatoes were notoriously mushy things. You know, if you didn't like a politician, you might throw a tomato at him and it would splat. A hard tomato that could be picked up by a machine? That sounded totally ludicrous. But Jack was not a man to be deterred by other people's lack of faith.

23:29Nicola Twilley:He decided the problem needed to be tackled from two angles. Somebody needed to invent a machine, but also he needed to reinvent the tomato. The tomato had to have a lot of very specific qualities. One of them was that it had to have that jointless gene, so only the fruit would come off the stem. Ideally, it also wouldn't have a white core because that was something canners had to cut out. And fortunately, Charlie Rick had found a tomato that was kind of oval-shaped that had no white core. The list goes on. An optimized tomato plant should have fruit that all ripened at the same time. That's ideal for processing because when you go through the field, you're harvesting the whole plant.

24:06So you want as many of those tomatoes to be ripe as possible.

24:10Nicola Twilley:Amazingly, the gene that made the tomatoes on a plant all ripen at the same time also had another extraordinarily useful effect. It made the tomato plant what is called determinate, which means that rather than just growing and fruiting and growing some more and fruiting some more all season long, which means that you have to support the plant on a trellis. Instead, these determinate plants just grow into a little bush, stop, and fruit. And what the idea is, is that each shoot that goes off flowers produces a tomato and then it stops growing. So they all grow out from the center stalk to more or less the same length.

24:48Nicola Twilley:And finally, Jack needed a machine-harvestable tomato to be hard enough that the mechanical harvester wouldn't smush it. So he'd breed tomatoes he thought might be harder than usual, and he'd drop them. Like he'd take them out in the field and drop them, and he would say, well, a good one you could drop twice before it broke. You know, a really good one you could drop three times. Meanwhile, to tackle the machine part of the mechanical harvesting problem, he worked with an engineer at Davis called Kobe Lawrenson. Kobe started out with a modified potato digger, which managed to harvest a very respectable 80 % of the tomatoes in a field, but left them in a single, soggy, muddy mass.

25:26Nicola Twilley:Over the next decade, Kobe and Jack and their colleagues developed all sorts of improvements. They went through 30 to 40 different versions of the harvester. Finally, in 1959, a farmer agreed they could try out the latest version in his fields. And they said, don't invite anybody because this is just a prototype. And when they got there, the whole field was just full of all these academics and farmers and industry people. And of course, it made a huge mess. It made one big pile of like tomato goop with mud in it and the machine would break down. And the whole thing was just, you know, a mess. But Jack and Kobe were determined to succeed, and they kept tweaking the machine, and they eventually got it to a point where only about a quarter of the tomatoes turned into goop during the harvest, which was closer to being considered an acceptable loss, at least by some tomato growers.

26:15Nicola Twilley:Including someone named Tilly Lewis. She was a pioneering businesswoman in the early to mid-1900s. She started off in the tomato business because she married a guy who was a wholesale grocery distributor, and he did a lot of work with imported food from Italy, like canned tomatoes. She thought the San Marzano tomatoes that the Italians were growing and canning tasted way better than what American farmers were growing. And then when those tariffs we talked about came along in the 1930s, she saw an opportunity. Why not grow the good Italian tomatoes in California? And her husband was like, no. Experts at the Brooklyn Botanical Garden also told her this wouldn't work, but she didn't care.

26:52Nicola Twilley:Tilly headed off to Italy. She met her husband's connections in the canning business. She actually worked in a cannery for a while, and then she divorced the guy and moved to Stockton in the Central Valley. And then she partnered up with an Italian-American guy, and they started growing San Marzano tomatoes in California. His name was Florindo del Guizo. His family ran one of the biggest tomato canneries in Naples, and he was apparently tall, dark, and handsome. There were rumors, but all we can say for sure is that Tilly and Florindo never married. Their names were combined only on a tomato can.

27:29Nicola Twilley:Their new company was called Flow Till, from Florindo and Tilly. In any case, Florindo soon died, and Tilly was left in charge of the company. And one of the reasons that her tomato canning company could more easily adopt the new harvesters was that she was already growing longer, thinner tomatoes, and these were better suited to the machines. Most everyone else was growing big, round tomatoes, and they couldn't be bothered switching not only to a machine, but to new tomatoes, too. And she invested and bought some of these machines, so she was very important for getting this off the ground. Tilly lived a fascinating life.

28:02Nicola Twilley:She even invented some of the earliest diet foods. But for the rest of her story, you should go listen to our episode called Sweet and Low Calorie about artificial sweeteners. She was a force of nature. Gradually, other tomato canners followed Tilly's pioneering lead and got on board, especially once labor became a real issue after the end of the Bracero program in 1964. That year, only a quarter of California's tomatoes were harvested by machine, but just two years later, it was 80%. By 1968, the hand harvest was over. Canned tomatoes were basically all harvested by machine. Modern industry in the field.

28:41The machine picker is a triumph of recent agricultural engineering.

28:44Nicola Twilley:The machines work by digging into the dirt and scooping up the tomato plant. This is great if the fields are dry, and most of the tomato fields in California were irrigated, not rain-fed, so that irrigation could be turned off. The disadvantages in the East are that, you know, it rains all the time. Before the mechanical harvester, there were plenty of tomato canning factories in Indiana and Maryland and New Jersey. After, nine out of every ten tomatoes grown for canning were grown in California. But that wasn't the only impact. The machines were so expensive that only large farms could afford them.

29:17Nicola Twilley:Within five years of the machine's large-scale adoption, thousands of tomato growers went out of business, only a few hundred remained, and tens of thousands of jobs were lost. Stanislaus is one of just a few big canning businesses in the Central Valley today, and they do the harvesting for their growers. We went out into the field to see the latest and greatest version of the mechanical harvester. As you can see here, this is a tomato harvester. We have about seven or eight that San Salas owns. We stood next to it. It is really, really big, like as big as a school bus. It has all sorts of different kinds of machinery sticking out on either side, and what looks like a massive conveyor belt slash escalator going up the entire front next to the driver who's sitting in a covered cab.

29:58Nicola Twilley:I've tried driving one of these things once. Very terrifying. It is all, it's a big machine. You're not going to let us drive it? You could get on it. I don't know if I'm going to let you drive it. Juan is a wise man. But he did let us climb aboard and admire the machine from there. At the bottom of that massive conveyor belt, there's a kind of combo digger slicer. And really what it's doing is skimming about like the first inch or two of the topsoil. And it's pinching that plan off. And when that plan gets pinched off, it goes on to this belt right here, hugged by this belt on top. And it's basically, to me, it always looks like a carpet of tomato plant going up.

30:34Nicola Twilley:The whole plants roll up the conveyor belt, and a lot of the dirt falls off them. As the plants are being jostled and shaken around, this helps dislodge the tomatoes from the vine, and they roll onto a different belt. And that's where you get, like, the first introduction of technology that's changed quite a bit. And this is, like, laser eyesorders. And these can be set up to see certain color. And certain color actually activates the fingers that are down here. You can hear that sound.

31:00When you hear that, really what it is, is it's seeing red and it's set up to see red. So as soon as it does, it's able to ignite those fingers with a little air pressure and it'll kick the red tomatoes back in.

31:12Nicola Twilley:Anything that's not red, like all the green parts of the plant, dirt and green tomatoes, that gets shaken down into a shredder and then a vacuum hose sucks up any loose debris. And it'll shoot that into the shredder as well and then out the back. Never want to stand behind a tomato machine while it's moving. Juan has learned this the hard way. Oh, it's a game for some of these guys sometimes. Whenever I'm driving by them or something like that, they're just like, oh, let me turn it on. And you get painted green. The tomatoes pass along the length of this machine. And along the way, there are a couple more sorters, all kicking out anything that isn't a perfect red tomato.

31:44Nicola Twilley:All these lasers and scanners, they weren't on Jack Hanna and Kobe Lawrenson's original machine. Before, there would be about 14 people on the machine. And what they were doing is they'd be going even slower, but they were hand sorting everything. So that way you're still getting only red into the tub, but it was all manual labor. Still less labor than harvesting by hand, but a lot more than today. Juan explained how this all works while the harvester was idle because once it gets going, it's really loud. We were standing next to the sorter when he told the driver to start up the engine and get digging.

32:18Nicola Twilley:And just like that, the machine rumbled off, sucking up all the plants in its path, and all the ripe red tomatoes came rolling down the belts beside us. We have video on our socials. It's quite astonishing, honestly. Even watching it with the naked eye, you barely see it going on. But when you watch it in slow motion and you see the little lasers kicking everything off, and anything that's not a red ripe tomato is booted out right in the field. I could have honestly stood there all day, watching this huge machine lumber up and down the rows of tomatoes, sucking up entire plants, pooping out dirt and leaves, and raining down beautiful, perfect ruby red tomatoes into huge bins on a truck that follows along.

33:01Nicola Twilley:It was mesmerizing. The machine itself is, as Nikki said, astonishing. And then I was also shocked to learn that during the season, which is only a little more than two months, these machines are running all the time. The machine runs 24 hours, seven days a week, just like the cannery does. It's intense. The only break these machines really get is kind of cleaning up before shift change. All of this sounds extremely industrial and as though efficiency has triumphed yet again over taste. That's the story of fresh tomatoes for sure. But it's not the story of canned ones. Why canned tomatoes are actually the greatest and tastiest pantry staple and how to make sure you're getting the most delicious ones after the break.

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35:27Nicola Twilley:We told you that Jack Hanna and other people at the time and since then who've been breeding the perfect tomatoes for canning had some very specific tomato features in mind, and none of them were about flavor. But that's not the whole picture. Tom Cortopassi, he's the president of Stanislaus, he told us what his breeders focus on. Well, first off, you know, it has to be able to handle that harvester, right? So it has to have enough firmness. They also, you notice, they kind of all ripen at once. So far, so similar to Jack Hanna. But that's not all canned tomato breeders are looking for. From a tomato standpoint, you know, the varieties that we choose have a lot of flavor.

36:05A nice balance of sugar and acid. That's what gives you that, you know, when you're biting a tomato, you get both. It's like any good food. It's balanced.

36:14Nicola Twilley:Of course, Tom would say his company's tomatoes are flavorful. But there's only one way to verify that. You guys want to take a bite? Yeah. Yes, of course. Okay, the first thing to point out here is that all canning tomatoes are harvested ripe, so they're at their full flavor potential. That helps. And Juan had brought a little salt for us. That also helps. I love that you brought salt for us. Perfect. Here's one piece. Thank you. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. That was really good. Yum. It still had that heat from the field. It was ripe. It was juicy. It was a good tomato. It was a little firmer than the ones I grow or pick up at the farmer's market.

36:58Nicola Twilley:That's because, as we said, they're bred to be able to make it through the mechanical harvesting without getting smushed. So I wouldn't necessarily choose it for my salads. But it still tasted like a tomato. Much more tomatoey than the fresh-eating tomatoes you buy at the store out of season. In a way, canned tomatoes got lucky. We mentioned in the fresh tomato episode this summer that flavor accidentally got bread out of Florida tomatoes as they were being bred to be hard and chippable and something that could be picked green and ripened later. That never happened to the varieties of tomatoes that are grown for canning.

37:30Nicola Twilley:They were intensively bred to be machine-harvestable, but the flavor genes came along for the ride. And honestly, we are all grateful for that stroke of luck. Stanislaus is a canning company that only sells to other companies. You can't buy their products at the grocery store. And Jeff told us the main way they try to distinguish themselves is taste. Our customers are restaurateurs. We're trying to help the mom and pop, onesie-twosie restaurant owner to have superior flavor over chain operations that can have price advantage. So we want to give them flavor advantage. and that's why flavor is so important to us.

38:08Nicola Twilley:Lots of things go into flavor, including the tomato variety and how it's grown, but Stanislaus's big edge is to do with how they process the tomatoes. You, like me, have probably eaten canned tomatoes and tomato sauces your whole life without ever realizing there's a big divide in the world of canned tomato products, and it's to do with how they're processed. Three out of every four tomatoes that get harvested in California make it to industrial paste, you know, which is kind of tomato sludge. And they take that paste and they make other sauces, barbecue sauce, soups, things like that. We do no paste, zero.

38:49So it's all just fresh pack tomatoes here.

38:51Nicola Twilley:There's industrial paste and there's fresh pack. And from the way Tom and Juan talked about it, it's pretty much a case of never the twain shall meet. So assuming you're like us and these terms are new to you, let's start with paste processing. Jeff told us the first part is the same, the harvest. And then you're going to bring the product into the plant, and you're going to cut it up and juice it, and you're going to take that juice and you're going to evaporate it until you just have a very, very thick, thick paste, thicker than you would buy in a store. And they're going to put that paste in a big tote, and they're going to set it aside.

39:24Nicola Twilley:In the 1970s, a scientist at Purdue, whose family worked in the tomato canning business, invented this aseptic storage system. He figured out that if you coated steel tanks with epoxy resin and sterilized all your equipment and filled any air gaps with nitrogen gas, you could store tomato paste at room temperature for months and months. He won the World Food Prize for this breakthrough and ended up revolutionizing the juice industry as well as the canned tomato business. Jeff told us that today, companies will put their tomato paste in 300-gallon aseptic bags that are stored in plastic bulk storage boxes.

39:59Then what they will do is when the season is over, they will bring that product back into the plant and they will heat it again and then they will add water to it and they will make a sauce.

40:10Nicola Twilley:Like pizza sauce, pasta sauce, or ketchup, soup, barbecue sauce, whatever tomato product a company wants to make. Heinz used tomatoes for tomato soup, tomato ketchup, the famous sauce for baked beans, and also for spaghetti. Like I said, 75 % of the tomatoes are done that way. The main bulk of the tomatoes is converted into tomato puree. Lovely stuff. This is the split in the canning industry. The other side, the side Stanislaus is on, they do something called fresh pack. They don't make paste and store it and reconstitute it later in the year. They just put the tomatoes in the can after harvest.

40:49Nicola Twilley:A fresh pack plant has to be big enough to process all the tomatoes they want to package in that short window of time those tomatoes are ripe. And then that whole huge factory sits idle the entire rest of the year. That's why these kinds of tomatoes are more expensive. But this process also has an impact on flavor. And so it has one cook versus most industries doing two cooks. That one cook, that's because all canned tomatoes have to be cooked for a certain amount of time to kill off any pathogens and sterilize them. That way they'll stay safe in the can for a really long time. Paste makers cook their tomatoes twice, as Jeff said, and they cook them for a long time.

41:25Nicola Twilley:That really changes the flavor of the tomatoes. But the folks at Stanislaus do it differently. A very important formula for us is that time and temperature are the enemy of fresh tomato flavor. So we're always trying to manage that to reduce the time, reduce the temperature. What that means is that the tomatoes go from that monster machine in the field to the plant in no more than a couple of hours. And then they try to get them out of the plant in a can in the next four hours. So six hours total from growing in the field to sitting in a can. We followed them over to the plant to see what happened next.

41:59Nicola Twilley:So we're entering the plant. Oh, it smells amazing. Now I'm getting hungry. Smell the tomato. There were conveyor belts of tomatoes all around us. So it's just two rivers of red going down to this escalator at the end. They're climbing up into our plant. I absolutely love the roller coaster going up, they're going down, they're going across, they're going round. Luckily not quite as fast as most roller coasters are. The tomatoes get thoroughly washed, of course, and there are various scanners and humans doing quality control at all points. But the first stop for most of the tomatoes is this incredibly clever machine that uses steam and rubber fingers to get the skin off.

42:42Nicola Twilley:So we can see the tiny, like, little bits of tomato skin coming out there. Smells like cooked tomato now. And it's so clever. They're, like, just gently being rubbed by this, like, these rubbery fingers. And then we watched the tomatoes come out the other end after all the skin had been removed. Oh, my gosh. Here they are, the naked skinless tomatoes. They look like naked skinless tomatoes. But, like, beautifully perfect naked skinless tomatoes. It's like surprisingly perfect. Stanislaus makes a bunch of different canned tomato products. They package those beautiful tomatoes whole in a bunch of tomato juice and sauce made from less than perfect looking tomatoes.

43:23Nicola Twilley:They sell cans of crushed tomatoes. They even make their own sauces, but definitely not reconstituted from paste. At this point in our tomato journey, it felt like time to eat again. We tried the tomato in the field. It was delicious. But how about once it was in the can? Could we really taste that fresh-packed difference? Stanislaus has a company kitchen on site and a chef who works there, and the chef had prepared a number of different dishes for us. One of them was a plate that had just one perfect canned tomato with some mozzarella, basil, and olive oil. I'd never seen a mini caprese salad made of canned tomatoes before.

43:58Nicola Twilley:I had not either, and frankly, I admired the chutzpah. I mean, this is a dish supposed to showcase the most perfect summer tomatoes. All right, I'm going to, I mean, I'm going to start with tomato because that's the main event here. It's got a little bit of olive oil and a little bit of basil. That is unnaturally delicious. It is so, so pure tomato. I'm also really impressed with the texture of it, just even cutting into it. It has a little give, but you can cut it really easily. It's like a really lovely textured tomato. And it doesn't have any of that solid core that you can get. It's a just all tomato, all the way through, pure red.

44:41Nicola Twilley:The color is intense. It's very beautiful. Here we go. Mmm. That is a delicious tomato. This was actually kind of mind-blowing. A canned tomato, served where you would normally have a fresh one, and it was just as, if not more, delicious. They served us their sauces in a few different dishes, too, and those were also super delicious. Now, here's where we have to disappoint you listeners, though, because we did tell you, but here's a reminder. Stanislaus only sells to restaurants and food companies. Their cans are a full gallon each can, more than six pounds of tomatoes in there, whereas a large can in the store is about just under two pounds.

45:19Nicola Twilley:Sorry. I am considering doing some kind of deal with my neighborhood pizza restaurant. That said, honestly, the canned tomatoes in the store are all pretty good. But for people who are looking to get the very most delicious canned tomatoes, the advice you always hear is buy San Marzano tomatoes. They're the best. The San Marzano is kind of, it's pretty mythical. The story behind the San Marzano goes like this. As we discussed in our tomato episode this summer, tomatoes in general took a while to catch on in Italy. But when they did, they were huge hits. But as Italians started canning whole tomatoes to supply the British market, they started planting a new variety.

45:56Nicola Twilley:It was a cross between two traditional varieties that had been developed up north near Parma. This new variety was the legendary San Marzano of tradition, which means it's really only a century old. A tomato canner who lived up north brought the seeds of this hybrid to southern Italy for a few reasons. The volcanic soils near Vesuvius were incredibly rich, it's sunny, it's a great spot for tomatoes. They do really well there. And some farmers were willing to give these new tomatoes a try. Within a couple of years, the San Marzano was the tomato. Everyone in the region was growing it. It was being exported.

46:30Nicola Twilley:People like Tilly Lewis were falling in love with it. It was the bedrock of Italy's tomato canning industry. They saw it as red gold. For a few decades, things were going swimmingly and then disaster struck. Arthur told us the story. What happened in Italy was that in In the 60s and 70s, the San Marzano just became subject to all of these molds and wilts and critters. And it was going to go extinct. Time for a new tomato to come to the rescue. The authentically Italian-sounding Roma. The Roma was, I mean, it was actually developed in the U.S. And so, yeah, I mean, it sounds like what could be more Italian.

47:12Nicola Twilley:Seriously, but no, it was developed at a USDA facility in Maryland. The Roma does have some San Marzano among its many tomato parents, but other tomatoes were involved too, and it was bred to be resistant to all those molds and wilts. So Italian growers mostly switched to that. Today, Stanislaus and most other canners have moved on to even newer hybrids, though even those have both Romas and San Marzanas in their ancestry. In the 1990s, the Slow Food Movement, it was founded in Italy just a few years before, they wanted to bring the original San Marzanos back. But when they went looking for San Marzanos being grown near Naples, they found 20 different kinds of tomatoes all being called San Marzano.

47:50Nicola Twilley:What had happened since the days of Brits enjoying San Marzanos with their fried breakfasts and Tilly importing them to the U.S., what had happened is that Italian tomato growers had let their tomato plants have lots of indiscriminate sex.

48:09Nicola Twilley:Some San Marzanos survived the bugs and wilts, and likely either accidentally or on purpose were crossbred with other local tomatoes, and so people were growing those and calling them all San Marzanos, which was a problem for the Slow Food people. Slow Food ended up just choosing two of the many so-called San Marzanos being grown and calling those the official San Marzano tomato. And the growers in the region also got something called a protected designation of origin, a PDO or DOP, depending on which language you're speaking. That means that all canned tomatoes labeled San Marzano DOP have to be one of those two varietals grown in this one specific region near Naples.

48:52Nicola Twilley:But even if you buy a can of tomatoes labeled San Marzano DOP, they might not actually be one of those two varieties or grown in that region. For one, there's only a tiny, tiny amount of land dedicated to San Marzano's, and so there's way more demand than supply. That creates an incentive for fraud. There's not that many. There are some. They come from that region in Italy. We don't think many come to this country because why would they? They're going to keep them in Italy. The other issue is that if you're buying San Marzano GOP tomatoes in the U.S., well, it's not actually fraud to label them GOP, even if they're not grown in the region, because the U.S.

49:30Nicola Twilley:does not honor European DOP regulations. So it's certainly possible that those San Marzanos you buy at the store might not be San Marzanos, according to the letter of the DOP. It's really impossible to know, but they still might be delicious. So if looking for the label San Marzano isn't going to guarantee peak deliciousness, what should you look for? What's a winter tomato lover to do? First off, you want to buy whole canned tomatoes if possible. That way your tomatoes definitely won't be reconstituted from paste. If you see a can and you open it up and they're whole, yeah, there's no other way of doing it.

50:04You can't preserve the tomato and then repack it whole. So that's the one item when it's,

50:10Nicola Twilley:you know, when it's the actual whole tomato you know. But crushed and diced can be even more convenient to use than whole ones in a can. How about those? As you cut up those tomatoes and you create different products, you're getting further and further away from the garden. Diced tomatoes is obviously going to be a tomato that doesn't need to have the visual aspect that a whole peeled tomato because you can just cut it up and you don't know that it didn't look great. You're also going to use a fair amount of calcium chloride to firm that tomato up because the tomato, when it's cut in those little squares, is not going to retain that shape on it.

50:50own.

50:50Nicola Twilley:Calcium chloride is a kind of salt. It's a common food additive. You'll often find it in cans of beans, too. So they put that calcium chloride in there, and that'll firm it up and give that identity. Some people can taste that, and it's kind of a chalky taste if you can pick it up. That would not have the same quality and sweetness that you would get with a whole peeled tomato. Crushed and ground tomatoes don't have calcium chloride added. They don't need it. But they could be reconstituted from paste. Some are. For sauces, you have to look at the ingredient list. If you go to the grocery store and you look at a sauce and it says like tomato puree and then parentheses, paste and water, then that means it was remanufactured.

51:30Most of everything on the grocery store shelf is that way. Not everything.

51:34Nicola Twilley:I didn't know to look for this before we reported this episode, but I was happy to see that my favorite sauce, basically the only one we buy, it's clear that it's not reconstituted. That might be why I like it so much. But honestly, even the cheapest, most basic, reconstituted from paste canned tomato product is still a good thing. And that's because, like we said, canning tomatoes never had the flavor bred out of them, and they're allowed to ripen before they're harvested. And that is why we love them. I think a can of tomatoes is one of the most underrated, cheap products you can buy. Amen to that.

52:10Nicola Twilley:Honestly, if there's one tip we could give you for winter cooking, it's to always keep canned tomatoes around. We are not being paid by Big Tomato. We do genuinely believe that they're the greatest. Thanks this episode to the folks at Stanislaus Food Products, Juan Rios, Tom Cortipasi, Jeff Lundquist, and Peaches Brady. You can find their product at all the best pizza restaurants. And thanks to Alec Wasson for connecting us to them. Thanks also to Arthur Allen and Bill Alexander. We have links to their books on our website, gastropod.com. Thanks also to our fantastic producer, Claudia Guy. We'll be back in a couple of weeks.

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