Everything You Know About Metabolism Is Wrong

13:52Kevin Hall:It turned out that people are horrible at estimating, especially how many calories that they eat.

13:58Julia Belluz:We've covered this particular human blind spot on the show before. Pretty much no one can remember and accurately report what they eat. But for a long time, nutrition scientists just used those self-reports as truth. Using self-reported data has led to quite a few mistaken conclusions in nutrition science. But in this case, there's another important wrinkle. There are differences in how accurate different people's memories are when it comes to their food consumption.

14:24Kevin Hall:It turns out that there ends up being a correlation that people who are larger tend to underestimate more of what they eat than smaller people.

14:34Julia Belluz:Kind of makes sense because people of all sizes, but especially larger people, are often made to feel shame about how much they eat. But the point is, even though it was based on inaccurate data, it fit the existing evidence about metabolic rate and weight. So most people, including scientists, believed that heavier people had slower metabolisms, which was part of why they were heavy.

14:56Kevin Hall:It was a kind of a association by kind of logic as opposed to an actual measurement.

15:02Julia Belluz:All of this has led to a general belief, like basically everyone believes this, the speed of your metabolism is key to your weight. And some people then take the next step to say that you can change your metabolism, even without starving yourself or burning and maybe killing yourself with a drug. And these people have advice for you. Lots of it all over YouTube and TikTok and magazines and everywhere else.

15:24Kevin Hall:Get into the metabolism boosters. First, we got green tea. This contains a fair amount of antioxidants and a small amount of caffeine that's going to stimulate your metabolism and improve the way you burn fat.

15:36Julia Belluz:This is my morning tonic recipe that I use when I'm really feeling like I need to get out of a rut, when I need to get my metabolism really ramped up. Kevin didn't care about what the YouTubers were claiming about green tea and morning tonics, but he did want to try to tease out the role of exercise. And whether the amount of exercise that the people on The Biggest Loser were doing, whether that could prevent their metabolism from slowing down as they lost weight. But when he proposed this to his bosses at the National Institutes of Health...

16:05Kevin Hall:The response was, absolutely not. You can't do this. This is a crazy reality television show.

16:12Julia Belluz:Kevin got around that by partnering with a friend who runs a lab at a different organization. So he headed out to Malibu, where The Biggest Loser was being filmed.

16:19Kevin Hall:And when I showed up, they were miserable. They were just really grouchy. I'm like, I would not want to be here. This doesn't look fun. I woke up this morning, the day of the first challenge, and I was definitely sore.

16:36Julia Belluz:My legs hurt. My abs, they're in pain.

16:43Kevin Hall:When I woke up, I had muscles hurting I didn't even know I had. I knew that the medical folks had given certain advice that they should eat a certain minimum number of calories, But it was pretty clear that folks were not adhering to that advice because they wanted to maximize their weight loss. Do not eat the sausage. Nobody should be touching that sausage. This game, it's just like in real life. It's about resisting temptations and making the right choices. And they were cutting calories as much as humanly possible and doing ridiculous amounts of exercise.

17:18Julia Belluz:Go! Go, damn it! Go, head up, head up, head up! Jump! Recover. We're going to do this ten and a half times. Oh, come on. You're cruel and unusual. Okay, Phil, go. No. Amidst the sweat, tears, and misery, Kevin got to work. He measured everything, including, of course, metabolism using something called a metabolic cart. The participants lay on this for 45 minutes, while the machine measured how fast their bodies burned fuel while they were at rest. In other words, their baseline metabolic rate. The first thing that Kevin figured out was what was driving the most weight loss on the show. And it turns out that it was mostly about how many calories someone cut, not about how much exercise they did.

18:03Kevin Hall:I'm not saying that the exercise didn't contribute at all. It just didn't explain the differences between the people, whereas the amount of calories that they cut in their diet seemed to explain most of the difference.

18:13Julia Belluz:So that was a little bit of a surprise. But what about the idea that if they lost weight, but maintained and even grew their muscles with all this exercise, they would avoid crashing their metabolism and instead maybe even speed it up?

18:27Kevin Hall:For example, the Minnesota starvation folks, most of the weight that they lost was from their lean body mass, not fat. Whereas these guys were losing mostly fat. And yet their metabolic rate was still dropping to a huge amount.

18:39Julia Belluz:Okay, so that was weird. Then Kevin wanted to figure out if the slowdown in metabolism was different for different people. Could that explain the weight loss? Like, did the people whose metabolism slowed the most lose the least amount of weight?

18:51Kevin Hall:When we tried to correlate the slowdown of metabolism to the amount of weight loss, we found the exact opposite direction of correlation. It was the folks who had lost the most weight who had the greatest slowing of metabolism.

19:04Julia Belluz:This seems all wrong, at least based on how everybody thought about metabolism. According to the existing logic, if your metabolism was the slowest, you really should not be losing the most weight. This data told Kevin that metabolism was maybe not the most important dial when it comes to weight loss after all. He was super intrigued, and so he wanted to keep studying the biggest loser folks. What happened to them and their metabolisms six years down the line?

19:29Kevin Hall:Most people in the community thought that, you know, the people who are going to slow down their metabolism the most are going to regain the most weight. It just seems obvious.

19:37Julia Belluz:That is the outcome I would bet on. But is it what happened? Kevin reveals all after this quick message from our sponsors.

20:11Julia Belluz:in 2026. We're diving deep into investment strategies for real people with real budgets and why financial feminism isn't just a buzzword, it's a movement. Get ready for an unfiltered conversation about money, entrepreneurship, and what it really takes to build both personal wealth and a business empire. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash you are rich BFF. Kevin's biggest loser study was seen as really important and a big success. And so when he wanted to follow up on his original study six years later, this time, the NIH did not have any issues.

20:41Kevin Hall:After we'd sort of established that we could do this sort of thing, when we said later, oh, can we run the protocol through the NIH now that we want to bring these folks back after six years? It was like, yeah, of course you can.

20:52Julia Belluz:So Kevin brought 14 of the 16 contestants from the season he studied, season eight, out to the NIH lab in Maryland.

20:59Kevin Hall:We actually sent them scales before they came to just make sure that they weren't actively trying to lose weight as part of the reunion phase and make sure that they were relatively weight stable. And we sent them a kit to measure their total energy expenditure with this technique called doubly labeled water. And then they arrived in Bethesda. And over the next few days, we basically measured their metabolic rate again, measured their body weight, their body composition, how much was fat and how much was lean tissue, and did some blood draws and measured a whole bunch of hormones and things like that.

21:34Julia Belluz:The first finding of this second study was a pretty quick one and easy to measure. He and his colleagues expected that most of the former contestants would regain at least some of the weight they'd lost.

21:43Kevin Hall:And indeed, on average, they regained about two thirds of the lost weight.

21:47Julia Belluz:Which sounds like a failure at first, but actually, if you think about it, these people had managed to keep a third of what they'd lost off for six years after that initial reality TV stunt. When people try to lose weight, normally they only lose a little, nothing even close to what the people on The Biggest Loser lost. And they typically regain about 80 % of it when they go back to their normal eating habits. The Biggest Loser contestants had lost more weight and kept more off.

22:13Kevin Hall:That's pretty darn good, right? I mean, that's pretty impressive, actually.

22:18Julia Belluz:So that was already kind of a surprise. But when it came to their metabolisms, things got weirder.

22:24Kevin Hall:When we measured their metabolic rate at six years, The big surprise was that we had expected, because they had regained weight, on average, their metabolic rate should go up because heavier bodies burn more calories than lighter bodies, even at rest. The shock was that it wasn't any different than it was at the end of this weight loss competition, despite regaining two-thirds of the lost weight on average.

22:52Julia Belluz:Somehow, their metabolisms had stayed stuck at the same slowed down rate they were at their lowest point, right at the end of the contest when they'd finished almost starving themselves. Like nearly all of Kevin's findings in these studies, this, too, was really surprising. And it's actually something he still can't fully explain. But it also wasn't the end of his questions. Kevin wanted to know whether their metabolic rates were what influenced how much weight they gained back.

23:20Kevin Hall:There were some people who regained all the weight and more. There was one person who actually lost even more weight after the competition in that six-year time frame. And so we had a nice spread of people who'd regained all the weight, as well as one person who'd lost more weight and some people anywhere in between. And so we could ask that question, did the metabolic slowing that took place at the end of the competition predict who was most likely to regain weight?

23:46Julia Belluz:According to the conventional logic, you would expect the people with the slowest metabolisms to regain the most weight because their metabolisms were so slow. But no.

23:56Kevin Hall:Again, it was in exactly the opposite direction. The people who had maintained the most weight loss had the greatest slowing of metabolism.

24:03Julia Belluz:You heard that right. The people who had the greatest slowing of metabolism maintained the most weight loss.

24:09Kevin Hall:But it was so shocking that we were, you know, we kind of almost disbelieved the data. We were like, what is wrong? Like, what did we do wrong? And one of the things that we sort of realized was, Well, we actually used a different piece of equipment out in Malibu than we did at the NIH. It's supposed to be calibrated before each measurement and all that sort of stuff. But we're like, well, you know, it's an obvious criticism. We've got to address this.

24:37Julia Belluz:He flew the whole original metabolic cart to Maryland, to the NIH.

24:41Kevin Hall:And we said, no, there's no average difference. This cannot possibly explain it.

24:45Julia Belluz:One final thing that Kevin looked at in this follow-up study, in the first study, people who cut the most calories lost the most, and weight loss didn't seem to be as related to exercise. So in this new study, six years later, what was most important when it came to gaining or maintaining weight, how much food you ate or how much exercise you did?

25:02Kevin Hall:So there seemed to be this really interesting flip, whereas during the weight loss competition, it was the people who cut the most calories in their diet that lost the most weight, and physical activity didn't explain the differences between people. Six years later, it was the exact opposite. It was the folks who had increased the amount of physical activity that had been most successful.

25:23Julia Belluz:This flip is something Kevin still can't fully explain, though other research has shown that regular exercise can make the body more receptive to feelings of fullness after eating. And in general, exercise has lots of other benefits. But all these findings were genuinely shocking, and so Kevin's study got a lot of headlines.

25:41Kevin Hall:Over the years, lots of competitors have struggled to keep the weight off, and now scientists may know why. Researchers found it was due to their bodies shifting metabolism.

25:49Julia Belluz:A new study has found that many competitors on The Biggest Loser leave the show with a slower metabolism, making it more difficult to keep off the pounds. So I think what I did, and I think many reporters did, was read the study through that lens that, you know, finally we have this explanation for why it's so hard to keep weight off and why people often regain the weight. It's obviously about metabolism. Kevin says, of course, the contestants' slower metabolism did have an impact. If their metabolisms hadn't slowed down, they'd probably have kept off even more weight. But that definitely wasn't the study's main point.

26:26Kevin Hall:Yeah, it's kind of frustrating as a scientist because people get like, you know, 40 % of it right. And you're like, well, yeah, but the main takeaway is kind of wrong.

26:36Julia Belluz:Because the main takeaway for Kevin is that if people with the most slowed down metabolisms lost the most weight and kept the most weight off, then weight gain and loss couldn't mostly be about how fast or slow your metabolism is. Kevin's results showed clearly that a lot of what we believed about the importance of metabolic rate for body weight just wasn't true.

26:58Kevin Hall:It doesn't matter how much sense it makes. It doesn't matter how convinced you are that this is likely going to be the story. You actually have to go out and do the darn experiment and measure what happens and see, because as often as not, you might be surprised. And that was certainly the case here.

27:16Julia Belluz:All of this, though, leads to yet another question. What do we know about metabolism? I mean, we've said that metabolism is the body turning food into fuel to power everything, but really, what's going on?

27:27Kevin Hall:Metabolism is an incredibly beautiful process by which we kind of convert all the food that we eat, the air that we breathe, this kind of continuous flow of matter and energy from our food that basically builds everything in our bodies, rebuilds that on a constant basis, and powers everything that we do. And it's really just fundamental to life. I mean, it's part of the lowliest bacteria to like the most complex biological processes that we know. And it's so fundamental to life that, you know, people, when they were searching for life on Mars, they designed their assays based on whether or not there was signs of metabolism.

28:07Julia Belluz:People had long had an understanding of the basics of this essential process, but it was all a bit fuzzy in terms of how that actually happened.

28:15Kevin Hall:And it wasn't until, you know, the middle of the 18th century that people made this actually direct connection between burning things and the fact that metabolism is essentially just combustion. It's just like burning things, but you're doing it at a much slower and more controlled rate.

28:33Julia Belluz:A scientist in the 1700s named Antoine Lavoisier did a lot of cool things to help us understand this process. He basically measured heat and carbon dioxide animals give off, and he also measured the heat and carbon dioxide that food gives off when it's burned to link one to the other. We talked about him in our calorie episode. He called the thing he devised to measure burning of food in animals the calorimeter, calor for heat.

28:56Kevin Hall:And so what metabolism has been doing ever since the science of metabolism has been trying to figure out, well, what are the steps, you know, and what's the spark?

29:03Julia Belluz:There turn out to be hundreds and hundreds of different steps in this process, and lots of them are connected in feedback loops to each other. Every single cell in our body, except for red blood cells, is involved in metabolism, and there are lots of different pathways so that our body can swap in different foods, depending on what's available, and break down pretty much any kind of plant or animal tissue into fuel that we can use more or less interchangeably. It's an incredibly complicated and extraordinarily well-regulated dance, that's happening in our bodies all the time, every second. And it does, in fact, speed up and slow down, but it's doing that all the time in response to whether you've been asleep for eight hours, and of course you haven't eaten for all that time, or whether you need a burst of energy to run away from a tiger.

29:48Julia Belluz:It's just dynamically matching your fuel intake and your energy needs so you can survive and thrive. For some people, this system is broken or gets broken, and that does cause all kind of weight-related problems. People with a malfunction somewhere in their metabolic system can be extremely underweight or overweight, or even have some of the negative health impacts associated with obesity while being super skinny. So metabolic disorders are real.

30:14Kevin Hall:So there are people who have some hormonal disorder, typically thyroid-related, where there really is a metabolic effect that can drive weight gain.

30:24Julia Belluz:If your thyroid doesn't produce enough of a couple of particular hormones that help regulate part of the metabolic cycle, your metabolism will slow down and you'll feel cold and tired and often gain weight.

30:34Kevin Hall:But those are the exceptions rather than the rule.

30:37Julia Belluz:This is really quite rare. These are diseases. They're often genetic. These aren't regular people who just have a hard time losing weight. But a lot of people, Julia included, think that if they gain weight easily and struggle to lose it, it's because they have a faulty metabolism. I had this idea that one of the reasons that it was hard for me earlier in life to maintain a healthy body weight was that I had a slow metabolism. So Julia actually got hers tested. She spent 24 hours in a lab getting basically everything measured. She took part in the same type of experiment that Kevin did with the people from The Biggest Loser.

31:09Julia Belluz:I got the results and I found out I had a perfectly normal metabolic rate for someone my age and body size. And I was quite surprised because I really did carry around this idea for much of my life that the reason, yeah, that I seem to, you know, put on weight more quickly than my friends sometimes or whatever it was, was because I had this sluggish metabolism. But that was not the reason. That didn't explain anything. Once again, it's not metabolism to blame, except for a very few unfortunate people who have a metabolic disease or disorder. But a lot of people do struggle with their weight, so if it's not the fault of the slow metabolism, then what's going on?

31:50Julia Belluz:That's coming up after the break. So we've now explained why the speed of our metabolism isn't the only thing that affects whether or not we gain weight. And while it can and does speed up or slow down, this also doesn't seem to be the main or only driver of weight gain or loss. But between 1980 and today, obesity rates have doubled in more than 70 countries around the world. And all of our metabolisms haven't slowed down or broken in that time. So what gives? Kevin and Julia have concluded that one really important thing has changed in that time period, and it's something called our set point.

32:25Julia Belluz:It's a theory, but the idea is that our bodies kind of know what size to be.

32:29Kevin Hall:So all of this sort of how our bodies are built is a biologically regulated phenomenon. And when we reach adulthood, our body weight, in some sense, each individual is regulating a certain kind of range of body weight in a given environment.

32:46Julia Belluz:Everyone's range is different, but the idea is that your body is programmed to keep you within that range.

32:51Kevin Hall:The idea of the set point is that if I was to then take that person and starve them for a period of time, I can clearly make them lose weight. but then if I take away that intervention, then they'll regain the weight. Or similarly, if I overfeed a person by making them eat more than they would normally want to eat for a period of time, they would gain weight. But when I remove that intervention and let them eat however much or little they want, they would then lose weight and re-regulate around the so-called set point body weight.

33:20Julia Belluz:And metabolism is the whole framework for how it does this. Like we said, on a minute-by-minute basis, your metabolism is busy speeding up and slowing down in response to your immediate energy needs and inputs. But according to set point theory, it is also speeding up and slowing down to keep your body within this ideal range. Kind of the way cruise control will accelerate or brake when you're going uphill or down. But even though we've been focused on the actual burning of food to create energy idea, the whole metabolism business is even more complex. The speed of metabolism is how fast you burn through fuel, but there's a really complicated system regulating all of this, telling you how much you want to eat and how much stored energy you might need to hold onto or dip into.

34:05Julia Belluz:There are hormones that send signals and nerves that get activated, and there are a whole bunch of feedback loops happening all the time within all of these systems. You will likely have heard of some of these hormones. We've talked about them on the show before. Hormones like ghrelin, which affects the feeling of hunger, and insulin, which affects sugar use and storage as well as fat storage. There isn't just one set of signals. Everything is interlinked, and scientists don't understand everything about how they work together to try to keep you at your set point.

34:34Kevin Hall:Not fully. We don't know fully. We know that there are signals coming from the body that help influence it. I think the prototypical example was this hormone called leptin, which is secreted by our fat cells, roughly in proportion to how much body fat that we have. and that's providing a signal to the brain to tell us how much stored energy do we have on our body and what people noticed a long time ago in mice was that if they lack a functioning version of this leptin that the mice become ravenously hungry and will eat constantly and no matter how much body fat they have they will act as if they are starving because they're not getting the signal from the body that they have plenty of calories on board.

35:21Kevin Hall:They don't need to worry about this. So clearly the brain is getting signals about something in the body, in this case, the amount of body fat that's stored. But it's also likely getting signals from other organs in the body to somehow give the brain information about do we have the right proportion of muscle versus fat? How's our liver doing? Do we have enough calories there?

35:43Julia Belluz:It's a lot. And like Kevin said, scientists are still trying to understand it all. But in general, if this system is working optimally, then in theory, your body has a range of weight that it's built to hang out in. Again, there are different body types, so the ranges are individual. But this is all kind of working in the background with very little conscious awareness on anyone's part that your body's keeping you in that range. As we keep saying, this is a theory, but there's evidence to support it in animals, including humans. Kevin gave us a great example of how your body will autocorrect in this way, whether you know it or not.

36:16Kevin Hall:There's a class of drugs on the market for people with diabetes where you can actually make them pee out glucose to a surprising extent. And for a period of time, they'll lose weight, but their appetite will increase and eventually they'll counteract that weight loss.

36:33Julia Belluz:So, but if we do have these beautifully regulated set points, why are so many of us gaining weight? Well, a few decades ago, a scientist showed that the set point, at least in animals, can be changed. In the 1970s, a researcher named Tony Sclafani wanted to make rats gain weight to do obesity studies, but he had a really hard time getting them to bulk up until a colleague of his spilled some Froot Loops and the rats went wild for it. So Tony decided to see what happened to his rats if he fed them exclusively on junk food.

37:02Kevin Hall:He exposed them to a food environment that was very rich in supermarket foods that we would now classify as ultra-processed foods. And rats that normally had a very difficult time gaining weight all of a sudden gained weight very, very easily and very, very quickly.

37:17Julia Belluz:What Tony's research seems to show is that rats do have a set point, but that set point can be changed by changing the food they're eating. Their bodies had maintained a set point until they were given ultra-processed foods. So Kevin's next question was, if humans also have a set point, which it kind of seems like we do, can it also be shifted the way the rat set point changed? And if so, what would change the set point in us? This is what originally sent Kevin down the path of studying the impact of eating ultra-processed foods. We've covered his studies in depth in our episode on nutrition science earlier this year, so I won't repeat everything.

37:51Julia Belluz:But long story short, people who were offered a certain amount of calories in the form of ultra-processed foods gained more weight than when they were offered the same amount of calories in minimally processed form. In other words, humans seem to be pretty much like rats.

38:06Kevin Hall:And so the idea being that there are very large effects that we can see when we change people's food environments that seem to tell the body, for reasons that we still don't fully understand, that in this new environment, it's more appropriate for you to kind of start regulating your body weight at a different set point. And so the body weight is regulated, and it's a set point in the same way that a kind of an engineer might design a an engineered system to kind of maintain the temperature of your house it seems like the environment doesn't just make it more difficult for you to maintain that temperature it actually goes in and resets the thermostat itself right in some weird way that we're only beginning to understand the biological

38:49Julia Belluz:mechanisms of this seems not to be a one-way street where once your food environment resets you to a higher level, you could never come back. Kevin says that some people can turn that effect off and lower their set point back down to what it used to be. Basically, it seems to take kind of removing yourself from the environment you're in and creating a new environment. That might not mean physically moving to a new home, but it probably means totally changing the food you keep at home and what you're willing to eat out of the house and how you structure your day to allow for a lot more movement.

39:20Julia Belluz:And that's not easy. It takes a lot of resources and support for most people to be able to make those changes to their environment and maintain them.

39:29Kevin Hall:And when you do have that ability to make those sustained changes, you will see the changes in your body weight and body composition. That's, I would argue, another aspect of your environment, right? It's your social environment. It's your environment that allows you to kind of make and persist in these sorts of changes. So in that sense, you are able to kind of reset your set point by making those persistent changes.

39:54Julia Belluz:But as Kevin said, this is really, really hard. The folks on The Biggest Loser, they went home to the same food environment they'd been in before. And for most of them, Kevin says that pushed them towards regaining the weight they'd lost.

40:05Kevin Hall:You know, one of the things that we tend to overplay in most of our day-to-day conversations is how much we're able to change our lifestyles in the face of the given environment that we're in.

40:16Julia Belluz:Changes like having healthier food options easily available and like having physical activity not be something that's difficult to incorporate into your day.

40:23Kevin Hall:Very few of those are sustainable for most people. And so what other aspects of our environment could we focus on that would allow the body to reset at a different set point that doesn't involve people actually making active choices and incorporating those lifestyle changes?

40:40Julia Belluz:As Julia pointed out, our current food environment and our built environment, they're both actively set up to push us in the wrong direction. And only through the reporting and working with Kevin on the book did I realize we need to stop looking at ourselves. We need to look outside at what's been happening in the food environment. It's about the worst for us foods being the most accessible, available, cheap, heavily advertised, like pushed in our faces. And the healthy stuff being the hardest to obtain and cook and eat. that the burden has been put on individuals when we've made it so incredibly hard.

41:17Julia Belluz:And we now have the science from Kevin and others that shows the deck is stacked against most people. Kevin and Julia's book covers much more than just his research into metabolism and ultra-processed foods. They also talk about research into the role of, say, protein and carbs in your diet, and why, at the end of the day, these individual nutrients don't play a major role in metabolism and body weight regulation. We'll actually have more on protein, something everyone seems to be obsessed with these days. We'll reveal their protein insights in our special supporters newsletter, gastropod.com slash support.

41:48Julia Belluz:One of the biggest takeaways is that there's still a ton we don't know about how our bodies regulate the complex business of fueling themselves. And some of what we think we know is wrong, or at least overly simplistic.

42:01Kevin Hall:Yeah, I hope that people come away from the book having sort of a renewed fascination about the science of nutrition and metabolism and how our bodies work, how we've kind of come to learn what we do know about nutrition and metabolism, how there's a long history, a painstaking process of science to kind of uncover this really fascinating discoveries that have been made. And we still have a lot to learn. And yet we're often really distracted by these hacks and these kind of half-baked theories that are more or less untested that dominate the way that we normally think about nutrition and metabolism research.

42:43Kevin Hall:And that they have a renewed appreciation for it's not their fault why we have diet-related chronic diseases, how we've been distracted over and over again, first by diet books, now by social media influencers about, the one thing that you need to kind of hack your way to perfect health, that the truth is much more complicated than that.

43:07Julia Belluz:And for Kevin and Julia, the truth, according to the best available science, it seems to be that the food environment is the most important dial affecting what's going on at a population level. Obviously, there's a lot going on. Obesity didn't suddenly appear just in the past century. It existed in the past. But given how much things have changed at a population scale, our current food environment seems to be a big part of the issue. That said, this set point theory and the idea it can be reset by the food environment, not all nutrition scientists subscribe to this theory. Some researchers blame the huge amount of sugar in refined grains, all the simple carbs in our food system, instead.

43:44Julia Belluz:Obviously, having a lot of sugar and simple carbs in our food environment isn't a good thing, and we do have a lot of both. We happen to think, based on Kevin's rigorous research, we believe it's a little more complicated than just sugar and simple carbs. But in any case, everyone does agree that our completely transformed food environment plays a big role. Especially for Julia, that's important because so often we blame ourselves for gaining weight when our food environment is rigged against us. I was back at my parents' house this summer and I saw my childhood photos that I hadn't looked at in a while.

44:16Julia Belluz:and it was the first time I saw my little fat kid photos and didn't feel like shame and like it was my fault. And like there was something that I did that caused that. And I hope other people reading the book will have the same feeling. And they should be angry and they should be asking their leaders at every level, even from the workplace, to do better for them and to make it a little bit easier. When it comes to what our leaders and in particular our governments should be doing, Kevin and Julia do have some policy recommendations in the book. Let's move away from talking around the edges about some food dyes.

44:57Kevin Hall:Let's tackle some of the main culprits and why we have the food environment that we have.

45:02Julia Belluz:And let's make sure we focus our research on these essential questions. Sadly, Kevin is no longer pursuing his research at the National Institutes of Health. He recently resigned, even though it was his dream job, because he experienced censorship in reporting research results that didn't match the narrative preferred by the agency's leadership under the direction of Health Secretary Robert Kennedy Jr., which is really a huge loss for us all. We're looking forward to seeing where he ends up next. Thanks so much to Kevin Hall and Julia Belouz. Their new book is called Food Intelligence, The Science of How Food Both Nourishes and Harms Us.

45:39Julia Belluz:We have a link to it on our website, gastropod.com. We are lucky to be able to continue our dream job, making Gastropod, thanks to the support of our generous listeners. We wanted to give a special birthday shout out this episode to super supporters Zachary Addison and Monica Edwards. Thank you, and happy birthday. Thanks also to our fantastic producer, Claudia Geib. We'll be back in a couple of weeks with a brand new episode. Till then. Do you have to do this school flashback? Just anything to do and hope that it's true? No, not. Wieso Steuer is my safe space. You mean everything is safe? Yes, exactly.

46:19Julia Belluz:Wieso Steuer is the app that you just understand. Egal if Studium, Job or Umzug. Stimmt, krass. It feels like not like Steuern. Steuern erledigt? Safe. With Wieso Steuer.