In short
The evolution and cultural importance of corn (maize) in Mexico and beyond—how teosinte became domesticated corn, why nixtamalization made it nutritious, how corn shaped civilizations and diets, and how industrialization threatens corn diversity; includes a “vampire” link to pellagra.
Guests and backgrounds
- Chef Jorge Gaviria, founder/CEO of Masienda, sells masa flour and tortillas and works with Mexican smallholder farmers preserving heirloom varieties.
- Alberto Chesaine, leads CIMIT (International Maize and Wheat Improvement Center) gene bank near Mexico City; manages ~28,000 corn varieties.
- David Carballo, archaeologist at Boston University; studies early corn domestication and diet shifts.
- Jesús Torres, co-founder of corn-focused restaurant Expendio de Maíz in Mexico City.
- Roxana Lorando, outreach for the Herdes Foundation of Mexican Gastronomy; explains traditional nixtamal and masa processing.
Key claims and notable examples
- Teosinte’s hard kernels became edible through selection over millennia; domesticated corn can’t survive without humans.
- Nixtamalization (alkaline cooking) unlocks niacin (B3) and amino acids; without it, corn-based diets can cause pellagra.
- Pellagra symptoms resemble vampire folklore; theory, not proof, ties vampire panics to niacin deficiency.
- Corn fueled settlements like Cahokia; later, mechanization and dried masa reduced women’s labor.
- Industrial corn and trade reduced diversity; CIMIT’s tar spot-resistant hybrids show gene-bank value.
- Masienda supports ~2,000 farmers and sells multiple heirloom masa colors; examples include tasting blue vs yellow tortillas/chips and corn varieties used for rituals (e.g., pozole for life events).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Importance of Tortillas
0:00 to 1:15
Explore the emotional and cultural significance of corn tortillas in people's lives.
“I remember they had a toaster oven and they had corn tortillas which felt like very authentic ones and munster cheese.”
Fresh Corn Vs. Field Corn
2:55 to 4:55
Understand the differences between sweet corn and field corn, and their uses.
“One of the things I always look forward to in the summer when I was growing up, and honestly I still do today, was and is that first taste of delicious fresh corn on the cob.”
The Origin of Corn
4:55 to 6:46
Delve into the transformation of Teosinte into modern corn over thousands of years.
“He's also in charge of the world's largest collection of corn.”
The Role of Alcohol and Snacks
6:46 to 7:58
Learn how early Mesoamericans may have discovered corn's potential through fermentation.
“David Carballo is an archaeologist at Boston University, and he told us the first evidence for the domestication of corn comes from about 10 ,000 years ago.”
Domestication of Corn
7:58 to 11:12
Explore the lengthy process of corn domestication and its significance to ancient societies.
“and someone might have noticed that the mushy, kind of liquidy remains eventually fermented into a kind of corn beer.”
The Spread of Corn
11:12 to 14:01
Trace how corn spread across continents and adapted over time in various climates.
“In domesticated corn, the kernels never naturally fall off the cob, and so corn could not survive without humans.”
The Process and Nutritional Benefits of Nixtamalization
14:01 to 20:52
Learn how nixtamalization transforms corn into a nutritional powerhouse.
“In this case, usually modern day agent would be calcium hydroxide, which is just a basic high pH substance that helps break down the corn.”
The Cultural Importance of Nixtamalized Corn
20:55 to 22:03
Discover the historical and cultural significance of nixtamalized corn in Mesoamerica.
“Fall is here, and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at Starbucks.”
The Labor of Corn Preparation and Its Myths
22:20 to 28:00
Explore the labor-intensive process of preparing corn and its cultural myths.
“But from there, dealing with corn becomes a total grind.”
The Diversity of Corn Varieties
28:00 to 30:00
Learn how different varieties of corn are selected based on culinary uses.
“but it also means that you end up with lots of different varieties, with lots of different colors and shapes and sizes and textures.”
Show all 18 chapters
Cynthia's Tortilla Taste Test
30:00 to 31:40
Join Cynthia as she tests her ability to distinguish between tortilla chip flavors.
“Can Cynthia, connoisseur of all things, including corn, taste the difference between different color tortillas?”
Traditional Corn Cuisine and Its Evolution
31:40 to 32:45
Explore the traditional ways of corn preparation and the impact of industrialization.
“It was also probably the most different varieties of vitamin T I've had at one meal, and I'd happily do it again.”
Traditional Corn Cuisine and Its Evolution
32:57 to 33:36
Explore the traditional ways of corn preparation and the impact of industrialization.
“You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist.”
The Challenges Facing Traditional Corn
33:36 to 42:01
Understand the threats to traditional corn varieties and the efforts to preserve them.
“Turns out that this technology just didn't work for nixtamalized corn.”
The Importance of Corn Diversity
42:01 to 45:18
Learn about the role of genetic diversity in corn preservation and farming.
“These powers would be in our superhero, in our Captain America.”
Jorge's Journey with Masienda
45:18 to 47:16
Discover how Jorge built a business to support heirloom corn farmers in Mexico.
“I forget about a future for the native breed.”
Corn's Future and Climate Challenges
47:16 to 49:46
Understand the challenges corn faces due to climate change and the need for adaptation.
“What was funny to me is that we were really excited when I saw, I remember seeing a red conico, which is one of the varietals that we use for our red masa flower.”
Upcoming Corn Discussion
49:46 to 50:14
Get a sneak peek at future topics related to corn and its cultural significance.
“the more interesting it is, the more healthy it is from a lot of perspectives.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:03I remember they had a toaster oven and they had corn tortillas which felt like very authentic ones and munster cheese. And I would just put a piece of munster cheese on top of a tortilla, put it in the toaster oven and make basically like toast it until it was like tostada status with cheese on top and put some hot sauce on it. And I would have like two of those to start and then I would figure out what I wanted to do after that with my life. That was definitely like my routine and my first sort of like conscious relationship with a tortilla. Chef Jorge Gaviria's family had fed him tortillas nearly every day before that one, but when he started this routine, this was the time he claimed tortillas for himself.
0:46It was an after-school snack at his grandparents' house, but it was also, as he says, a relationship. The corn tortilla was the thing that helped him feel grounded after he got home from school. And Jorge is not alone. Millions of people rely on corn tortillas to provide both physical and emotional sustenance every day. Corn is life for a large part of the world. And corn is also this episode of, yes, Gastropod, the podcast that looks at food through the lens of science and history. I'm Nicola Twilley. And I'm Cynthia Graber. This episode, we're telling the story of this essential substance. How did a random grass in what's now Mexico that had a tiny hard seed head blossom into those impressive stalks with foot-long cobs laden with large starchy kernels?
1:29And how did that transformation leave corn utterly helpless without its human assistance? Plus, why did those early Mesoamericans get so excited about this almost inedible grain in the first place? How did it become the food that fueled empires and led to hundreds of different and delicious variations on the all-important tortilla? And what does all of this have to do with vampires? This episode is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation for the Public Understanding of Science, Technology, and Economics, and by the Burr's Welcome Fund for our coverage of biomedical research. Gastropod is part of the Fox Media Podcast Network in partnership with Eater.
2:32are back at Starbucks. The one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. Or find a new favorite, like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. One of the things I always look forward to in the summer when I was growing up, and honestly I still do today, was and is that first taste of delicious fresh corn on the cob. You know, you slather it in butter, you sprinkle some salt on, you try not to get all the corn bits stuck in your teeth.
3:10As you listeners know, I grew up in England where sweet corn was typically encountered in its revolting canned form. I was a grown adult when I first tried the magic that is fresh corn, shucked, boiled, and buttered. And I was so overwhelmed with its deliciousness that I ate five cobs in a row, Much to my subsequent regret. But what might surprise a lot of you listeners is that sweet corn is not the same thing as the corn used to make tortillas. That's called field corn. They're in the same family, obviously. They're all maize. But sweet corn is basically 100 % sugar. It's very sweet. It is meant to be consumed in sort of like a fresh state.
3:47It doesn't harden. Jorge Gaviria is the founder and CEO of Masienda. They sell the flour to make tortillas, as well as ready-made tortillas and all sorts of other Mexican essentials. Field corn is, it looks kind of can taste in its raw state, like the Thanksgiving ornaments, you know, that we see on a tablescape or, you know, hanging from our door. It's very, very hard. It is dense. If you were to take a kernel and chew it, it might crack your teeth as mine have been cracked over the years trying that too many times. It is a low moisture, really, really tough kind of pellet in its kernel form that needs to be cooked down and process to some degree to make it both palatable and even nutritious.
4:30Sounds promising. I can totally see why Jorge's ancestors would have been into this tooth-cracking, hard-worked grain. If you think that sounds appealing, wait till you hear about corn's ancestor. Let's go back to the origins and getting the time machine. Go back 10 ,000 years. Our original corn grass is called Teosinte. Alberto Chesaine is the man with the time machine. He's also in charge of the world's largest collection of corn. It's based at a non-profit just outside of Mexico City. It's called CIMIT. That's the acronym for its name in Spanish, which translates to the International Maize and Wheat Improvement Center.
5:10When we visited Alberto, he showed us some of this weedy-looking teocente. Very hard. And tiny. Yes, and tiny. The plant itself gets kind of tall and spindly looking. It's a bushy, tropical grass. And each stalk of grass has these little spikes of grain, like tiny mini cobs covered with small seeds or kernels. Teocente grows wild like a weed all over southern Mexico and Central America to this day. But here's the thing. For a long time, scientists looking for corn's origins assumed that maybe Teocente was involved in the mix. But it couldn't possibly have been the main ancestor. I mean, the wild relatives of wheat actually look like wheat.
5:52But Teosinte really doesn't look anything like corn. Those mini cubs are just little long seed heads, really, and they're covered with a super hard coating. You couldn't eat those kernels. And when they're ripe, they just burst out and scatter on the ground. You, me, archaeologists in the 70s, none of us would think it was the ancestor of corn. And so researchers hunted for the missing link until advances in science confirmed the impossible. somehow, this unpromising weed was actually the source for a crop that Mexico depends on. It's the center of everything. You'll see if you go to any market, you'll find corn in almost everything.
6:32But not just Mexico, or even just Mexico and other neighboring countries in Central America. Globally, more corn is grown than wheat and rice. Today, clearly, corn is king. But it was slow off the block compared to the other staples. The process of domestication took a really long time compared to other grains of the world like rice or wheat. David Carballo is an archaeologist at Boston University, and he told us the first evidence for the domestication of corn comes from about 10 ,000 years ago. It was domesticated in the Balsas River Valley, which is southwest of Mexico City in the state of Guerrero today.
7:09Archaeologists have found little plant fossils in caves in that region that are sufficiently different from Teosinte to qualify as proto-corn. In other words, corn that was very early on in its journey to world domination, but corn nonetheless. While I would love to travel in Alberto's time machine, unfortunately he's keeping that one to himself, and nobody's figured out a way to ask people what they found appealing in Teosinte. But the theory is that before those super small mini cobs ripened and became hard, they were edible, maybe slightly sweet, and the stem was also kind of sugary, so that was something to chew on.
7:45And possibly to drink. As we know from our ancient beer episode, alcohol is often thought to have been a big motivator for those very first grain farmers. Because they would have chewed on the sugary stalks to get that sugar and then spit the stalks out, and someone might have noticed that the mushy, kind of liquidy remains eventually fermented into a kind of corn beer. That was a source of calories that was very easy to obtain and very easy to store. And then another theory is that as well as discovering sugar and maybe alcohol, early Mesoamericans accidentally discovered a tasty little snack.
8:20Here's how that could have happened. Maybe they were crunching on the stem, and maybe this particular teocente had a slightly larger cob with slightly larger seeds. They were still hard and not particularly edible. But then it fell into the fire. Y revienta como popcorn. And pops like popcorn. So, let's imagine, back then there was no Netflix. There was nothing, just the stars. There was a campfire, and some teocente seeds fell into the fire, and they produced pop teocente, not popcorn. and people said, oh, I can bite it and I won't break my teeth and I can eat it. Still, at this point, say something like 6 ,000 to 8 ,000 years ago, Teosinte slash corn 1.0 was a long way from the kind of thing you would happily pick up at the farm stand these days.
9:10There are these tiny little cobs that we really wouldn't recognize as corn cobs ourselves today. And it takes, you know, many millennia for the cob size to increase to something that we would now recognize as corn. And from then to that point, about 7 ,000 more years have passed, and people kept making selections until they had a plant that doesn't have many stocks but just one. It had one single large ear, and the seeds didn't disperse. They stayed put. And so we had our current corn. Part of the reason it took so long to fully domesticate corn is that so many things had to change so much. Like Alberto said, all those tiny cobs on their own individual stalks of grass had to become one cob on one big, heavy stalk.
10:01The kernels had to lose their super hard seed covering. They had to become bigger and starchier and sweeter. And they had to stay on the cob after they'd become ripe. And so in those early years, before corn was finished with this big makeover, it remained just a nice snack and a welcome source of alcohol rather than the center of the plate. Just wasn't a staple for thousands of years. That process took a really long time for it to get to a place where people were relying on it as their base subsistence. And it really wasn't until, say, about 2000 or 1500 even BCE that people started fully committing to being maize agriculturalists and settling down in permanent villages.
10:44So the lag between the first sort of experimentation with agriculture and then becoming full-time sedentary farmers is greater in Mesoamerica than it is in areas like, say, the Fertile Crescent of the Near East. David says you can see this change in the bones of the people that lived back then. There's a chemical signature that shows that maize had become a major part of their diet. People had clearly started relying on corn, and somewhere along the line, corn started relying on people. In domesticated corn, the kernels never naturally fall off the cob, and so corn could not survive without humans.
11:18It's our creation, and it needs us to replant it. That also means it needs us to spread, and spread it we did. Yeah, corn eventually spread south into the Andes and other parts of South America. In South America, they already had developed and domesticated starchy, high-caloric, nutritious foods like quinoa and potatoes and all sorts of other tubers. And so while corn was loved in South America, throughout the Andes region, it wasn't quite as important. It was eaten, but also mostly used for chicha or corn beer. And they developed corn that looks a little different from most of the corn in Mexico.
11:51It has larger kernels. Handily for humans, corn proved pretty good at adapting to all kinds of different climates and geographies. So the distribution wasn't just across the continent, but also across the altitudes. And that's what gives us this great diversity. People selected for the type of corn that they needed, whether it was because of what they wanted to use it for or for the types of growing conditions. With our help, corn also moved northward from Mesoamerica to the American Southwest and eventually to the Midwest, too. It took a while for this tropical grass species to adapt to this much more temperate, cold winter, different rain regime climate of the Midwest.
12:35But once it did, those very rich soils along the Mississippi, Missouri rivers became great corn country. But that happens more in the first millennium of our era. So starting around 500 to 1 ,000 or so of the current era. And once that happened, then you start seeing really big urban developments along the Mississippi as well. Corn literally fueled the development of these first big settlements in what's now the U.S. For a long time, archaeologists couldn't really explain why the biggest of these Mississippi settlements, a place called Cahokia, why it exploded from a little village to a city of tens of thousands of people almost overnight.
13:16It's only recently they figured out it was thanks to corn and all the extra nutrition it provided. We mentioned that archaeologists have used chemical traces in bones to determine when people started eating more corn. And it turns out that around the same time as people started eating more and more corn, they also found a way to make corn more nutritious. This shorthand process is basically cooking that corn in an alkaline water. This process is called nixtamalization. And for those of you for whom it's been a long time since high school chemistry, alkaline water is at the opposite side of the pH scale from acid.
13:50And whereas you'd add lemon to make water acidic, you can add various salts and minerals, for example, baking soda, to make it alkaline. You're just adding a little bit of an alkaline agent. In this case, usually modern day agent would be calcium hydroxide, which is just a basic high pH substance that helps break down the corn. Calcium hydroxide is also called lime or pickling lime. But, you know, in ancient times, shells, bones, ash, all sorts of sort of alkaline agents were used to kind of experiment to do the same thing. This relatively simple process of cooking corn in alkaline water is a major win for lots of reasons.
14:32First of all, it loosens the outer shell of the kernel. So that pops off. No sweat. In ancient times, it would kill any pathogens that were occurring, which obviously is really important because you don't want to die from like a fungus or, you know, bacteria that might be on that corn if you were trying to eat it and consume it. But nixtamalization's benefits go way beyond getting rid of bad things. It also releases good things. It is turning it into a real nutritional powerhouse. So corn actually has niacin in it. You basically can't get niacin in corn without unlocking its sort of cell structure and breaking that down.
15:11And at that point, when you consume it, it can actually become bioavailable to you. Niacin is also called vitamin B3, and it's really important to our health and well-being. Animal products and other types of whole grains like wheat do have B3, but if you're relying on corn for a major percentage of your calories, getting access to that niacin in the corn is really important. Nixtamalization unlocks that niacin, and it also happens to unlock a couple of other essential amino acids that we have to get in our diet that are in corn, but that wouldn't be available to our bodies without this whole process.
15:43So nixtamalization was a huge breakthrough for corn and the people of the corn, but we really have no idea who came up with it or how or even exactly when. Some of the earliest archaeological evidence that seems to show people were nixtamalizing their corn goes back about three and a half thousand years. But it's a hard thing to pinpoint. Of course, like this was all trial and error and there's a lot of mystery and also romance that goes into the origin story of this. Because sure, it sounds like it was a great discovery, but why would anyone have thought to do this? There's a debate exactly what was the impetus for doing this.
16:19Part of it could have been to make the corn form together better so you could make things like tortillas. Yes, there's yet another benefit. By breaking down the corn, nixtamalization doesn't just release essential nutrients. It also releases chemicals that make corn dough softer and stretchier and also tastier. So it's quite possible the process was originally developed for culinary reasons rather than the health benefits. Maybe a pot was out there with ash in it, and you forgot to clean out the ash, and you started to cook the corn to break it down, and all of a sudden it started to taste a lot better.
16:55It started to taste like umami, and I felt much better afterward. However people originally figured it out, nixtamalization was totally transformative. Big benefits are saving humanity, catalyzing an entire civilization. No big deal. In our recent episode about food and farming in Mexico City before the Spaniards showed up, We talked about how nutritious nixtamalized corn was and is, and how the Aztecs basically could have survived on tortillas and beans with some avocados and veggies and chiles. It was a perfect diet. That maybe you don't have meat, that maybe you don't have fish, that maybe you don't have like a poultry.
17:31But with corn, with nixtamal, with like some fire and a comal, you're able to make a tortilla and you could put like a chile, you could put like a quelite, you could put like a whatever. whatever, and it will be something that will give life to your family. This is Jesus Tournez. He's the co-founder of a corn-focused restaurant in Mexico City called Expendio de Maíz. Tortillas weren't the only way that people use nixtamalization to improve corn. If they left the kernels whole, it's what we call hominy. This form of nixtamalized corn was originally more common in what's now northern Mexico and the American Southwest.
18:03It's the base of the corn stew called pozole. But the point is, nixtamalization was happening, And that was key if your diet relied on corn. In places that didn't nixtamalize, there were consequences. We know that because once Europeans encountered corn, they brought it back with them, and it was quickly adopted. Not just because it's delicious, which it is, but because it grows really well on all sorts of land, even not-so-great land where wheat didn't grow well. So poorer people who lived on marginal land were able to grow it and harvest a lot more calories for their families. Which is why by the late 1700s and into the 1800s, corn formed the basis of a lot of peasant diets in Eastern Europe and Italy, as well as throughout Africa.
18:45It provided a lot of calories, but there was something missing. They brought back the staple itself, cultivated it, but they didn't bring back any of the tradition and the wisdom that comes with that. And they paid for it dearly with pellagra, which is basically a niacin deficiency. People in the regions that started to rely on corn, they didn't suffer from pellagra. That's the medical name for a vitamin B3 deficiency. They didn't get it before corn showed up. In northern Italy, for example, before corn, polenta just meant grain porridge. It was made with all sorts of grains. But then it became corn porridge, and people ate so much corn polenta without nixtamalizing that corn, that pellagra became one of the leading causes of death in the region.
19:22But what's curious is that this epidemic of pellagra coincided with another epidemic, an epidemic of vampires. The mid-1700s were vampire central in Eastern Europe. It was a real-life mass panic, followed by a long tale of folk stories and myths, culminating in the most famous vampire tale of all, Dracula. And guess what? The symptoms of pellagra more than slightly resemble the telltale signs of a vampire. They include skin problems like becoming sensitive to sunlight and developing a corpse like pallor, as well as insanity and foul breath. Kind of the image we have of vampires with like really bad skin and kind of like live in the dark because they can't go outside because they're too sensitive.
20:06That's largely believed to be the origin of that is like just people with niacin deficiencies, pellagra. So let's have some empathy for vampires out there. They just need a little more niacin. To be fair, this is just one of the theories of where the vampire legends come from. Nobody's proven that outbreaks of pellagra led directly to a vampire story. But pellagra was and is a major problem. It's still common today in places like Uganda, for instance, that rely heavily on corn without nixtamalizing it. So nixtamalization made corn something you could rely on. But unless you want to eat hominy or pozole at every meal, there's still work to be done.
20:42Next up, how corn kept Mesoamerican women chained to the grindstone for centuries, but also resulted in some of the most delicious foods known to humanity. But first, a quick word from our sponsors. Fall is here, and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at Starbucks. It's the one we've been waiting for. So whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte, or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai, the new iced pumpkin cream matcha, or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Fall is here, and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at Starbucks.
21:20It's the one we've been waiting for. So whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai, the new iced pumpkin cream matcha, or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso, you can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Excuses are easy. An epic movie night? We don't have enough snacks. Dinner party with the girls? We'd have to decorate. Surprise date night? Nothing to wear. But Amazon's Prime same-day delivery lets you say yes before the moment slips away. Try that new popcorn maker. Order those cheeky drink glasses. Get that new perfume.
21:58And turn that I wish we could into an I'm so glad we did. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Same-day delivery. It's on Prime. Available in select areas. Terms apply. So after you'd harvested corn and dried it and got it off the cob, you'd boil it with alkaline water, as per. But from there, dealing with corn becomes a total grind. Literally. Once this process was over, we would pass it to the metate and then we would grind it. Roxana Lorando does outreach for the Herdes Foundation of Mexican Gastronomy. We described the metate in our recent episode when the folks there used it to grind tortillas for atole.
22:44It looks like a large mortar and pestle made from porous volcanic rock. Using it is a lot of work. For it to be 100 % ground, a woman had to pass it up to seven times on the metate, which is quite tiring. So tiring for your knees, tiring for your back, and tiring for your arms. This task was back-breaking. From a young age, Mexican women spent most of their time kneeling on the ground grinding corn. Anthropologists estimate that traditionally, Mexican women spent five or six hours turning corn into tortillas every single day. They couldn't even get ahead and make two days' worth in one go because, yes, you guessed it, my favorite topic, refrigeration.
23:30And without it, tortilla dough couldn't be kept overnight without fermenting. The next part of the process, making the tortilla, that didn't take nearly as much time. Women would shape small wet balls of tortilla dough or masa in their hands, flatten them out, and then cook them quickly on the hot flat komal. But this also took a lot of knowledge, how wet the dough should be and how thick, how long it should cook on the komal. It was something that was sort of a rite of passage as you became, you know, a young woman. You were expected to learn how to make masa, make tortillas. and that's where that kind of myth comes from.
24:01It's if you get a tortilla to puff, it means you're ready to marry. My partner Tim can in fact now get a tortilla to puff, which is good because we're already married. Roxana told us that the puff, that's a key part of the anatomy of a perfect tortilla. The thick part is called the loin, and what inflates when you put it on the comal is called the belly. The tortillas here function as food, as a plate, as a spoon, and also as a napkin. They would divide the belly from the loin, and they would wipe the corner of their lips. And that's what served as a napkin. Different parts of the tortilla served a lot of different purposes, and the tortilla itself, well, it was the basis for a lot of different dishes.
24:47There's a lot of talk about vitamin T here. After you have dough, you can make a tortilla, and all the products from Mexico that also come from tortillas. Don't tell Mexicans, but everything is a tortilla. The tortilla is very, very practical because it turns into whatever you want. You can take that tortilla and fold it into like a triangle, which sort of resembles a crepe and it's a tetela. You can shape it into like a football oval looking thing, which is a tlacoyo, kind of the original hot pocket. you can make a huge version of it and call it at la ayuda which needs to be like a certain level of crispness totopos which are you know basically tortilla chips and been cut from a tortilla i mean it's just uh it goes on and on and there's so many different also like regional variations on what we name these things as you can probably imagine but you know i think i think like a couple dozen core shapes and then lots of different names to confuse people in between there may be a zillion different names for things made from masa, but there's also lots of different names for corn itself.
25:56Just like apparently people in the Arctic have many words for snow, people in Mexico have many words for maize, the term for, we would just say cob, but if it is a cob that has kernels on it versus a cob that has no kernels on it, those are two different terms. And so you get this sort of elaboration of terminology or whether it's young corn versus older corn, or it's been shucked. Those are all like all different terms. And all of this, the names for corn, the names of corn-based dishes, all of this makes it pretty clear that corn was the center of the world in Mesoamerica. I mean, corn is life.
26:28It is like there's very little separation, if any, between literally the life that we have and corn itself. We are inextricably linked. You know, we come from corn and corn comes from us. David told us this belief goes deep. It's echoed in all sorts of different origin stories from the region. The maize god is very big in Maya art and religion. There are these origin stories of these twins who do all these feats and defeat bad gods, and then their father is the maize god, and they sort of rejuvenate him. David said that Corrin isn't quite as obviously prominent among Aztec gods, but one of the most famous Aztec gods, Quetzalcoatl, he's seen as bringing maize to the people.
Read the full transcript
27:10And so there's different tellings of whether he went down into the underworld and brought back maize, or he sent an ant who went down into the underworld and brought back maize. But it is certainly part of the narratives of creation within the Aztec world as well. Because corn is more than just food, different corn dishes have become associated with different rituals. So making pozole for us is a ritual for, I'm going to give you an example. If someone gets married, you're going to make pozole. If someone dies, you're going to make pozole. If this is a bird of someone, you're going to make pozole.
27:40And then different varieties of corn have been selected for those rituals and special occasions as well. So like red corn, blue corn, a lot of these were really celebration kind of based occasions where you would use it. A birthday or a wedding or something, some kind of ceremonial kind of experience, but very special and so not used as often. Corn cross pollinates easily. That's what makes it so adaptable. but it also means that you end up with lots of different varieties, with lots of different colors and shapes and sizes and textures. And people would choose the ones they wanted to keep and grow, based in part on what they were going to use it for.
28:16When you understand that every race of corn is related to the selection of a lady, of the next grains or the next seeds for the next year, and this happens every year through thousands of years, So you go with each family and let's think that one family make tortillas. So this family, it will be more important to select the corn for making tortillas. If there's someone who make tamales in this community, they will produce their corn selecting every year the seeds for having like a better corn quality for tamales. Let's think that you're going to make pozole. So you're going to select the fat corn we call anchos.
29:03So the most important thing for every person will be different. A lot of these differences are to do with the starch content versus the stretchiness of the masa, which gives it different culinary qualities. And Jorge and Alberto told us that when it comes to the colors of the corn, it's not just a visual thing. They taste different, too. It's subtle, but there are variations. Typically for white, they tend to be pretty creamy, have a bit of a popcorn flavor to it, honestly. Yellow has some of the highest oil content of the varietals that we work with, so the flavor lingers on your palate more.
29:35They're just cornier, for lack of a better description, like whatever you imagine corn tasting like, amplifying it by 10 times. And red and blue can kind of vary between grassy and nutty notes to a little bit sweeter. Conoceurs, when they try a blue tortilla, immediately recognized that it has a very special flavor compared to a white one. Okay, I know a challenge when I hear one. Can Cynthia, connoisseur of all things, including corn, taste the difference between different color tortillas? Fortunately, I had an opportunity to put her to the test when we went to Maizajo, a restaurant in Mexico City that prides itself on its diverse corn menu.
30:17So there's maiz azul, maiz amarillo, maiz rojo y negrito, blanco. That was the list of some of the different varieties of corn they work with. But when it came to the tortilla chips on the table, we had two varieties, a blue and a yellow. I feel like I need to close my eyes and see if I can... Yeah, you want me to give you one? Yeah, give me one of each. Okay. Okay, my eyes are closed. As instructed, I handed Cynthia one of each of the chips. Okay, so I'm putting one in my mouth. I tasted each one once. Tastes delicious like corn. Nice and crispy, a little like hint of the smoke from the Kamal.
30:50I was pretty sure I knew which was which, but I went and tasted the first one again just to make sure. This one that I'm eating tastes more popcorn-y. I'm going to guess it's the yellow. You are correct. You have won our grand prize of yet more corn. But yeah, first one was yellow, second one was blue. I'm impressed. I have to admit I'm pretty proud of myself. I am apparently indeed a corn connoisseur. Once Cynthia aced the chip test, we both got stuck into some serious vitamin T. We have a very pretty memelan, which is a thick oval tortilla. We have a tetela, which is a triangular tortilla, like folded around stuff.
31:28And then we have a quesadilla, which is a thin tortilla that's folded together and cooked that way. And a little tostada, which is a crunchy one with stuff on it, in this case fish. Cynthia, what we have here is corn. Corn four ways. They were truly delicious. It was also probably the most different varieties of vitamin T I've had at one meal, and I'd happily do it again. And until not so long ago, if you lived in Mesoamerica, that's exactly what you would have done, with breaks in between to grind masa for hours on end because you're a woman. Sorry. Corn culture, corn cuisine, corn traditions, they were all alive and almost unchanged until really quite recently.
32:07The story of how industrialization freed women, but also nearly broke corn, and how corn is being saved after the break. Support for the show comes from Google Gemini. You know that moment when curiosity strikes? You're exploring a new city with a family, and a sculpture catches your daughter's eye. What is that? Who made it? With Gemini, you can snap a picture and get a fully interactive breakdown of its history, architecture, and even hidden secrets. Gemini is built for moments like that. Whether you're learning something new, solving a problem, or looking for your next favorite thing, Google Gemini is here to help.
32:45Download Gemini, Google's AI app, or visit gemini.google.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace, and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook. I didn't like what you said, Odin pauses, about the future. This is the love story of real hinge couple Odin and Edward, written and read by me, Curtis Garner.
33:36Listen to the free audiobook now. One thing you might be wondering is why on earth so many Mexican women were chained to the grindstone for so long when in the rest of the world, going back thousands of years, there were mills where people could get their grains ground by a horse-drawn or waterwheel-turned millstone. Turns out that this technology just didn't work for nixtamalized corn. Sure, in theory, you could have been grinding hard-dry corn in a mechanical mill, but then it wasn't nixtamalized and you might get pellagra. If, on the other hand, you cooked and soaked the corn in lime, it was too wet for a mechanical mill.
34:14People tried, but it didn't work well, and the texture of the masa was all wrong. It took a while for anyone to get it right. In fact, it wasn't until the mid-1800s that people finally figured out how to make a mechanical mill that could grind masa without getting gummed up and get it fine enough to make a good tortilla. It was happening first in urban centers through the mechanization process, and then that would start to kind of extend into more rural areas where in the center of town you would have a mill or a molino where the matriarch would go bring their corn that they nixtamalized at the crack of dawn so they could have it for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
34:48That was step one. Step two was coming up with the mechanical tortilla press. This was hard too, again because the dough is so sticky, and getting the thickness of the tortilla just right and keeping it from sticking to the press also took a couple of decades to develop. And then step three, which really revolutionized the world of corn. Dried masa flour. It was perfected in Texas in 1908. All of this together meant that women, or at least some women, were finally free from making masa to feed their family every single day. Dried masa, the biggest brand today, is Maseca for the win. Compared to the whole business of drying and nixtamalizing and grinding, dried masa is like magic.
35:31It's really, really thrilling to just add water to something and shape it and cook it into a tortilla. Jorge grew up eating tortillas, but he hadn't made them himself until he was working as a chef at a taqueria in New York. It kind of blew his mind. I was like, oh my gosh, this is like the true authentic way to make a tortilla. It's just adding water to this powder that I have no idea like how it's made and, you know, shaping it and then cooking it and then I have a tortilla. It wasn't until later that Jorge realized, hold on, this is like Folgers. This is not the tortilla of myth and tradition.
36:02Tortillas made with industrial dried masa are soft and reliable and a lot less work for the woman of the house, But they're not the tortilla of his ancestors. And not just because it didn't take quite as much labor. It's also because the corn itself is different. Since the mid-1900s, most of the corn grown and nixtamalized and dried and used in tortillas is industrial corn. The raw corn that they're using is, it's certainly bred for just yield and, you know, commercial considerations and not so much the flavor. But all is not completely lost. Despite the rise of industrial corn and maseca, both Alberto and Jorge told us that a lot of smallholder farmers in Mexico still grow traditional varieties.
36:43These are kind of like the custodians of what is essentially like the largest open seed bank in the world for corn. And these are varietals that are literally just preserved from one year to the next. Because they taste really good, they're selected each year because they look beautiful, they taste amazing. they're not the most efficient things to grow, but like what a romantic thing that they've stood the test of time because of how much pleasure they give the person who's growing them and creating masa from them. Romantic, delicious, but also increasingly endangered. What we see is a significant loss.
37:17A significant loss of diversity. There are a lot of reasons for that loss of diversity. Industrial corn is a lot cheaper and more efficient to grow and that makes it hard for smaller farmers to compete. These small-scale Mexican farmers were also hammered by trade agreements with America because industrial corn grown at scale in America is even cheaper, and those agreements let us flood the Mexican market with cheap corn. And we went from everyone having their own variety and being very proud of it to going to a supermarket and buying fat corn or going to the corner where they can get the tortillas already made.
37:54There's no time to grind them, much less to plant and harvest corn. My current concern is, before, people were very proud to say that they're farmers. You had plants passed down from your grandfather, your great-grandfather. Nowadays, the kid who's living in the countryside wants to live. He wants the advantages that cities offer. In Mexico, he could go to North America to fulfill his dreams. And so some people stopped growing their local varietals. That's not what goes into maseca, so that means it's not what goes into almost all tortillas. And these were largely folks who were doing it on a subsistence level, and so if they found that there was no incentive to do that for themselves, they weren't going to do it for anybody.
38:38And what that means is that the incredible diversity of corn, the purple corn and the corn with cobs that are two feet long, and the corn that's so productive it's named after a rabbit, all these corn varieties developed over millennia, they're under threat. Luckily, both Jorge and Alberto are working to keep all those varieties of corn from disappearing and save them for the future. Ready? Let's go to the corn.
39:08Welcome to Disneyland. We had to put on thick jackets to visit this particular Disneyland of corn because it was about minus 2 degrees Celsius, which is just 28 degrees Fahrenheit. Alberto told us that the plan is to bring it down to below zero Fahrenheit. So you're lucky because you're going to be one of the few who've been able to get in here. When it reaches about minus 18, we won't be able to host visitors. I wasn't too cold at 28 degrees. I live in Boston, so that's not a huge deal. But below zero, yeah, that'd be a bit much. As readers of my book will know, refrigeration works by slowing down how fast fruit and vegetables breathe.
39:49The same thing was happening to all the corn kernels stored in this chili vault. Lots of them were also tightly wrapped against the air. We are using triple-layer aluminum packaging vacuum sealed because the city is a living being and it's breathing. The more oxygen we give it, the more it will breathe. It was kind of amazing being surrounded by almost 30 ,000 different varieties of corn from 81 different countries. Not all of it was wrapped up, so we could see kernels of different sizes and colors. Some were black or purple, some were like large buttons. There were varieties that grew in all sorts of different landscapes.
40:27It really was a universe of corn. Like we said, this is the world's largest collection of corn, and Alberto is the man responsible for it. It's a gene bank, a way to make sure that the unique DNA from these 28 ,000-plus varieties is preserved for the future. The collection at CIMIC got started in the 1940s, and its mission is to collect, preserve, distribute, and improve corn. Yes, it's a titanic task, a huge responsibility. Fortunately, for many years, we've had financial support for these facilities because it's very, very, very expensive. The first major cost is keeping everything so cold. That means constant electricity.
41:14That means a lot of money. And even deep frozen, sure, the seed will be okay for decades, but it can't survive forever. Alberto told us he has to keep a constant eye on his corn because it has to be refreshed every so often. which is a major performance because, remember, the corn cross-pollinates really easily. When you plant a lot of different things in the field, you have to prevent the pollen from mixing between varieties. So you have to help out fertilization. It's a lot of work, so why go through all this expense and bother? So let's say that within the 28 ,000 that we have, there are some that would be very useful because they are resistant to a corn disease.
41:56or they might be able to tolerate a drought or another environmental condition. These powers would be in our superhero, in our Captain America. We have our Captain America frozen and sleeping for 50 years. This is not just a theoretical superhero corn saving the days situation. Alberto told us that corn from the simic collection has already come to the rescue against a nasty corn disease called tar spot, which can easily take out a quarter of your harvest. It's deadly for corn. And research was done here at the germplasm bank. They had corn from Guatemala and from Oaxaca that had resistance to the disease.
42:39So from there, they moved on to the genetic improvement program. They developed hybrids. And of course, that's been publicly distributed and companies are already starting to use that corn. But that's a very concrete example. We're talking about something that was here, sleeping and protective. our super hero. Alberto and his colleagues do extensive research in breeding at CIMIT. In fact, around 50 to 70 percent of all the corn grown in the world can be traced back to breeding programs there. But they also provide original samples from their collection. Last year, they sent more than 4 ,000 samples out to people in more than 100 countries.
43:17It could be a university that wants to do a characterization. It could be a company that says, I am going to use it directly to create an improved variety. Or it could be a high school teacher who wants to make a garden and show the students. We get everything. Anyone can request corn and Simit will send it out to them. Yes, it's key. I don't want a morgue. I want something that's useful. But Simit doesn't have everything they want when it comes to corn. They don't have every variety of corn in the world, and they also don't know every detail about the corn they do have. People want me to tell them what corn is useful for this region of Iowa that's resistant to diseases, that yields a lot, and that works against dandruff.
44:03We don't have all that information. I wish we did. For example, we would love to study and understand the nutritional quality. But that would take going through the DNA of every sample and then growing each variety out and correlating its qualities with the DNA. It's a huge project. What externally looks the same, being able to study the DNA, could tell us that one is tolerant to drought, the other could be tolerant to heat. That's what gives added value to a germplasm bank, knowing what it's useful for. They have some of that data, but not all, not yet. Still, what they've accomplished at CIMIT is essential for corn, and Alberto is proud of what they've done and what they'll continue to do in the future.
44:47But he says at the end of the day, the survival of corn also depends on the survival of farmers. Because while the corn in Alberto's collection might be preserved in the cold, without farmers growing those varieties, the corn will stop adapting and diversifying, and then it's almost as good as dead anyway. We're not going to have anywhere to go to get that new diversity. And it's very worrying. That's the big concern right now. If diversity depends on what's kept in the countryside and we don't keep youth in the countryside, I forget about a future for the native breed. That's just the side of the problem that Jorge is working on.
45:27Supporting the farmer in Mexico, growing all of those varieties of multicolor native corn is what his business Macienda is built around. Jorge started out just wanting to make a great tortilla. I was going to start a tortilleria, like a tortilla bakery, basically. I was going to kind of monolith in the image of tartine bakery. I was like, we're going to do the same thing that tartine did for country loaves. we're going to do the same thing for tortillas. It's going to be this magical process to watch. But then he started to think about what tortillas are made from, you know, corn. Long story short, I started just thinking about like, well, where does corn come from?
46:00You know, where does this food waste start? And the answer is Mexico was born in Mexico, invented in Mexico. There's still this unbelievable kind of living seed bank. Great. But Jorge immediately noticed that, like we said, this unbelievable living seed bank was under threat. Smallholders were still growing some of these varieties for themselves, but as older generations passed on, their kids weren't necessarily taking over. There just wasn't a living to be made growing these traditional heirloom corn varieties. And so the experiment was to try to create a market for it. Basically just paying fair retail prices for wholesale quantities of varietals that were being grown by these subsistence farmers.
46:41And we started with 12 farmers back in 2014. At that point, Jorge's business plan was to produce masa flour from all this delicious corn and sell it to restaurants and home chefs. But he wasn't sure it would take off. He kept his day job at Dan Barber's restaurant in New York. I was still working at Blue Hill and taking calls from the customs broker in the bathroom during service. People were like, where is Jorge at? I would be like in the bathroom for 30 minutes just like cleaning the bathroom but talking to a customs broker because I needed to get the corn across the border. He was wrangling logistics, and he was also having to convince smallholder farmers he was for real.
47:16What was funny to me is that we were really excited when I saw, I remember seeing a red conico, which is one of the varietals that we use for our red masa flower. And when I asked the farmer, his name was Armando, I said, do you, you know, like, how much do you want for this? The farmer was like, what, you want to buy this? It's just something we grow for ourselves. It's nothing special. We were just like, what are you talking about? Like, this is so delicious. Like, it has like a nutty quality to it. It's just like, dare I say, it tastes like slightly sweeter. It took a lot of work. But in the end, Jorge got out of the toilet, quit his day job, and he told us that Masienda is now having a real impact, keeping corn farmers and their heirloom varieties alive while bringing more deliciousness to our plates.
48:00So we work about 2 ,000 smallholder farmers in Mexico. And in terms of total varietals, I mean, probably 20, I would say. Today, Masienda sells four colors of masa flour. And with those and a tortilla press that they also sell, you can make truly kind of shockingly soft and delicious tortillas at home if you're so inclined. They also sell ready-made tortillas and frozen quesadillas. And they've expanded to other Mexican products like fantastic dried beans and even edible ants. Jorge's is just one effort to create the conditions to keep these varieties alive. But the impact goes way beyond the plate.
48:38Because even though Alberto is proud of taking care of the world's largest collection of corn, like we said, he knows that if it isn't being grown, it will stop adapting. And corn has a lot of adapting to do. Or at least the humans who grow and breed corn have a lot of work ahead to help it adapt. because Alberto told us that researchers project that by 2080, corn harvests are going to be cut in half by climate change. So in a projection of a Mexico with Sinaloa producing less corn, it's going to be a total crisis at the tortilla level. Because Sinaloa, Jalisco, and El Bajío are the regions producing the corn that fits more than 50 % of the national production.
49:20So if we already know that we are going to have a problem in the future, then we have to find the solution today using the germplasm of yesterday.
49:34And that solution can be found both in the vault and on the field. It's in the living biodiversity of this ancient grain. The more diverse anything is, any population is, the more vibrant it is, the more interesting it is, the more healthy it is from a lot of perspectives. Because biodiversity tastes better, it looks better, it's more interesting, and it is just overall healthier. We know, we know, there's so much more to say about corn. We made a whole episode without even mentioning corn syrup. But fear not, we plan a corn comeback in the future. You'll just have to keep listening. And, you know, supporting us so we can keep making the show.
50:17Thanks this episode to Alberto Chassane, Jorge Gaviria, David Carballo, Jesus Torres, and the folks at the Herdes Museum. We have links to their organizations, research, and restaurants at gastropod.com. Thanks also to the fabulous Rodrigo Perez-Ortega. He's a science journalist in Mexico City, and he helped us make this trip a reality. I also want to thank Rachel Laudan, a wonderful food writer who was the first to impress upon me exactly how backbreaking the daily task of grinding corn would have been. Thanks, as always, to our fantastic producer, Claudia Geib, and a final thanks to the folks who did our voiceovers, Maria Monica Ruiz and Andres Paramo.
50:51We'll be back in two weeks till then. Fall is here, and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at Starbucks. It's the one we've been waiting for. So whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai, the new iced pumpkin cream matcha, or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso, You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Fall is here, and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at Starbucks. It's the one we've been waiting for. So whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai, the new iced pumpkin cream matcha, or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso, you can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks.
From the publisher
This might sound corny, but the relationship between maize and humanity is essential. We rely on corn—globally, more maize is grown than wheat or rice—and, in turn, corn is utterly dependent on us, to the extent that it's lost the ability to reproduce without our help. But corn's wild ancestor is such an unappetizing weed that, for decades, archaeologists couldn't believe today's juicy cobs were all descended from it. From this unpromising beginning, we've got a story that involves empires, vampires, and generations of women chained to the (literal) grindstone. Pass the popcorn and settle in as we explore the past, present, and future of corn—and the many delicious ways Mesoamericans have invented to get their daily dose of vitamin T(ortilla). Plus: do blue and yellow corn chips actually taste different? And what does it mean for your relationship status if you can't get a tortilla to puff?
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