From Red Bull to Building a Better Drink w/ Huib Van Bockel || Tenzing

0:00I think when you launch a brand, anyone you've probably spoke to many now, I think you have to be extremely naive. As head of marketing for the UK at Red Bull, what made you leave and rethink the energy drink market? You know, I just saw this health trend emerge and I thought there just must be a better way because I really love the brand or aspects of the brand. But I just got disassociated with the product. I thought there must be a better way. And then it's like, I thought, OK, you know, I'll fetch it out on my own. There was like common data that about 80 % of the people that drink energy drinks worried about two things Artificial ingredients and they worried about the high sugar So I was like just take those two you know have an energy drink that is 150mH and low-calorie and it'll set itself We want to also show that nature is way more powerful than what you can make in a lab And the very first I had a Red Bull It was a radio ad that went something like

0:56what's a Red Bull? It's an energy drink. Red Bull gives you wings. It was literally just explaining exactly what the product was. Before we get into today's episode, I want to give a shout out to a special sponsor, Sam Lawrence Recruitment. We all know that finding the right people or the right job can feel really overwhelming and that's exactly where Sam comes in. He really just gets it. It's not just about ticking boxes, it's about connecting the right people with the right opportunities. He takes the time to understand you and exactly what you're looking for, whether you're building a team or taking that next career leap.

1:29So definitely get in touch. Trust me, you'll be glad you did. Charlie is a three-time founding member of Startup Brands, taking each from 0 to 1 million within 18 months across different categories, channels and countries, including launching operations in the US and Australia. He is now the founder of Plugin Brands, an award-winning outsourced FMCG sales agency working with the fast growth food and drink brands and Dive-In Agency, a TikTok shop agency helping brands turn social commerce into real revenue. With a background in go-to market strategy, brand development and distribution through retail and wholesale channels, there isn't any one better place to help you supercharge your brand.

2:09Charlie and the Plugin Brands team work with a host of brands, including Moju, Muller, Clipper T, Who Gives a Crap and Lovecorn. So if you're in need of an extra pair of hands to really step on your growth this year, Charlie is the guy you need to be in touch with. Getting to Grow is also brought to you by the Coconut Collab. And full disclosure, as I'm sure most of you are aware, I work there. So I know how much love goes into everything that we make. We're all about creating delicious, dairy-free, plant-based treats that do not compromise on taste. From our creamy yogurts to our indulgent desserts, everything's made with coconuts and a whole lot of care.

2:44if you're looking for something naturally good but seriously tasty and my favorite is just our natural coconut yogurt i have it most mornings with granola and lots of honey trust me you're going to absolutely love it welcome back to another episode of getting to grow on this week's episode we have the amazing founder of tenzing um hub van bockel and i have one ready for the episode which i'm very excited to have but hub thank you so much for coming on the podcast um please may you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you were doing before Tenzing. Okay well like everything before?

3:21Yeah. Or just right before? I mean maybe we don't know where you went to school but we can do like a career before. Okay so yeah.

3:32So you spent years at Red Bull right? Yes yes yes so basically from my life actually we were just discussing I lived in a lot of different places I've I've always been kind of, you know, I lived in South Africa when I was young and I lived in Mexico. Love South Africa. So I've always loved nature, like as a key thing where I love my outdoor sports and surfing and hiking and all that kind of climbing. And then from a career perspective, I've always been, I was always in the marketing creative side. So I started at Unilever and the marketing, then I went to MTV and that was still cool. Oh, cool.

4:04Oh my God, MTV Cribs was like so, I was obsessed with that. Exactly. I'd be like, why don't I have a cinema room? Yeah, exactly. Like everyone I watched did. Where was the time? Yeah, and it was quite an office of TV, actually, you know, all the kind of reality TV. I mean, it wasn't very cool. But I was there also in the music. When the music was still a thing, and then it slowly but surely when YouTube came around, obviously, they were watching videos on YouTube. Yeah. But that was cool. That was the first responsible for the first social media platform in Holland. So it was just before Facebook was even around.

4:34So that was cool getting to grips with that. And then I went to Red Bull, where I was head of marketing for the UK. in Europe. And what was that like working at Red Bull? It was super cool I mean I just think the brand is amazingly fun I've always loved and before that did a lot also with like the MTV Awards I've always loved events because it's like it's got real I don't know if you make an ad you know and then you put an ad on TV and then you hope someone likes it you know you don't actually even see their reaction on an event you know you bring people together it's really creative process I also kind of like the kind of it's usually 3, 4, 5 months process as opposed to maybe like a year so I like the deadlines of it and the creative process of it and seeing ideas come to life because I think that's one of my main things, I just love making ideas come to life so yeah that was it was fun and actually you're right about events because it's also where you get so much time with your customer which sometimes you might if you're in the day to day in the office it might not be something that you're you know every brand should be so consciously thinking about their customer but in terms of like real-time connections with them might not be as frequent as you'd like whereas at events it's such an easy place for it to come to life 100 % that's just real I think you know the end that you're creating a marketing marketing can be and I remember I got dissociated with that beginning of my first work I love the creative side but then you're just creating these worlds that are not not really real and I was like not that keen on that so I've always tried like you know you can get them when you organize an event or actually organize an event people actually come there and enjoy it as opposed to like oh i've got this positioning on my model brand and i'm gonna make this position come to life with a ad yeah and you know whatever you could have an adventure brand and all the people making that adventure brand yeah i've never even gone out on an adventure you know so i just like that aspect of it and so as head of marketing for the uk at red bull what What made you leave and rethink the energy drink market?

6:30Well, yeah, I was there for eight years, so I was also in a good amount of time, I think. But also, I had started a wedding business before, during my MTV days, actually. So I always had this urge. And then, you know, I just saw this health trend emerge. And I thought there just must be a better way, because I really love the brand or aspects of the brand. But I actually got disassociated with the product. and I thought there must be a better way and then it's like I thought okay I'll fetch it out on my own and yeah and then the cool thing is you just kind of go okay it's quite scary terrifying you need two things, I've got to realise quickly of course a recipe and a name and then I was lucky enough I was travelling I was lucky enough to bump into the Himalayan energising brews kind of, you know I was travelling there in Asia and they've got like two brews they use and I found a doctor that helped me with my recipe because that's the cool thing as well when you start from scratch you know all these brands you know what i'm going to go to the red blood just started hundreds or 40 years ago that's based on those scientific data or those kind of interests for people right people didn't when coke launched no one cared about sugar probably they wanted sugar right yeah and actually if you think about it now coke is the only drink of that color if you ever launched a black drink now i really don't think it would work it's so funny that it's that yeah because the only other colors that might be like that would be like a negroni i'm thinking of dark but it's a cocktail and you know that yeah a day-to-day drink that's like that look it just wouldn't sell now no no no maybe i don't wonder why they did that maybe coffee i don't know yeah it's because it was like a function but but i always think like if if the ceo of coca-cola or any of the soft drinks giants could change their recipe make it natural and low calorie without losing a single can they would right yeah but they can't they can't they're stuck with their old recipes yeah they are so I think so that's the cool thing when you can start on your own so so then I basically said okay you found these what they drink in the Himalayas it's a you know it's a triple hit of natural caffeine vitamin C and electrolytes which they are using there for like decades or centuries to power up the world's highest amounts it's not like new news electrolytes like it sort of might be now no no no because we had that already then and then we kind of Okay, and then that was like the base of the recipe.

8:49So essential electrolytes, antioxidants, and natural caffeine. And then I thought it would be so cool to honor Sherpa Tenzing because my dad was always a huge Tenzing fan. I think my dad was probably like 10 when Everest was climbed for the very first time by Tenzing and Hillary. And he always told me that he loves, he's really like on the, he loves the underdog stories and that, you know, basically Sherpa Tenzing that was, you know, he came from very little and he works the top of the world against all odds. So that story always stuck with me. So then I discovered this recipe and then I thought, oh, what a great way to honour that name.

9:24Yeah. Because it's kind of been forgotten. Yeah, definitely. And it was always more about Hillary and less about him, you know? Yeah. And then I went to the trademark office and it was available. That was amazing. And then I thought, do I actually need their permission? And they were like, you don't actually because it's a very common name there. Same if someone from Nepal or India would call the drink Jack. Okay. But I thought, I want their permission anyway. And I just wanted to meet them. So my whole family ended up meeting their whole family. How amazing. A big family affair. Yeah, exactly.

9:58And then they became partners in the business from day one. And that's where kind of the new category was born, as you said. So then for the first time ever, we created an energy drink that was made fully from nature. 100 % from nature, low calorie, no junk. And we also always filed to give back to nature. So B Corp, Rainfrost 9 certified teas, we carbon label, we do a lot of environmental projects. And it's also an interesting thing, a lot of the drinks that you see now in the UK are very much US inspired. Basically, I would say all of them. You've got the hard seltzers or even the seltzers, La Croix was first, right?

10:37Or you've got the CBD. Yes. Or you've got all the new... The fibre drinks now. fiber drinks the hip hop or whatever they're all from poppy you know yeah but there was no such thing like this because i was obviously very close to this market so there wasn't anything like it in the us or anything else so i really had to like pave the way yeah i think that which is sounds cooler than it is because it's like um it also makes it very difficult because i think i think when you launch a brand anyone you probably spoke to many now is that i think you have to be extremely naive because I thought it would be easier I think that's honestly the one of the biggest things I constantly come back to this on the podcast is that at the beginning when you don't know anything it's like your best your best kind of weapon yeah because you probably wouldn't do it if you knew all the barriers and everything that was like against you as a founder and starting a business so yeah naivety is totally your superpower at the beginning for sure 100 % and I think because also I like there was like common data that about 80 % of the of the people that drink energy drinks worried about it back then as well right they worried about they have like and they're worried about two things artificial ingredients like all the aspartame's taurine's and they're worried about the high sugar so I was like just take those two you know have an energy drink that is 100 % from age and low calorie and it'll sell itself but I think you know would you realize that the habit is also so deep so you know yeah we test for since quite often and we go what would you rather drink with thousands of people to random people and go you know with an agency we go what would you rather have an energising drink made from artificial ingredients or one made from nature and like 82 % or something says from nature yeah but you know then still it's a habit you know that you just have to like you know get people to it's super habitual and I think Diet Coke have done such a good job unfortunately of creating out that like 4pm hit that you know they give you that it gives that same energy and you know there's like loads of jokes around it like it's a fridge cigarette like dc like is a fridge cig and it's it's got that good it's paved that way so overcoming people's habits i mean in my day job obviously i what i sell yogurt yeah and yogurt is like breakfast is the most most habitual meal of the day so breaking someone's breakfast habit it's so hard yeah but once you have them in they're locked and like loaded for kind of the long term 100 and that's the cool thing like yeah we check up the best data we get us from on Amazon yeah so we require it's quite a big customer for us the second biggest actually and you know we have an 80 again funny of a lot of 80 to 82 percent repeat repeat purchase yeah average in the total soft drinks below 50 Wow like it's just I mean this is delicious this one this is the raspberry that's our biggest one yeah so people and that's the cool thing because we people go into the brand they come into the brand because they're looking for a better view alternative they are going like okay i like my energy drinks or i like something to lift me up but i want something that's better for you that's the reason they start they actually come back because i think it tastes great and the effect is better so you don't get like that crash and yeah so i think that's kind of cool to kind of it is you're all right as long as the loyalty is that high all we have to do that's why we're still growing so so fast all we have to do is get people to try it definitely and then they're in yeah that red lights on isn't it on that camera yeah okay good question about matcha then so like what's the difference between having a matcha versus um attending energy because it's still like the green clean kind of energy but where does your product differentiate because matcha is massive at the moment you know you've got some big players in in the industry now that that have got matcha cans and drinks and that's so i'm keen to understand like the real difference here yeah so we so the basic of our recipe so i basically kind of said it but to go into more detail yeah is is kind of based on four elements so we've got the the caffeine from us so for instance when i had to decide on this recipe you go look at what are the key things that work how much do you need of each of the ingredients and what is the best source of these ingredients like so obviously caffeine was something that we needed to have in there now if you look at like you know the traditional artificial energy drinks they all have artificially made caffeine so that's getting produced caffeine does it it's okay can't do that uh and then so we came with a mix of green coffee and green tea so green tea has the L-theanine in there yeah and the green coffee is just like you know is the unroasted bean where we take the caffeine from so it's a mix of those two then we have vitamin C or antioxidants and then we've got the electrolytes and then we've got 60 % less sugar so it's like four and a half grams of sugar versus like 11 grams over so the key thing we get back is that about 90 more than 90 % of our hardcore users say they get the same amount of energy but without the crash yeah and that crash is like it and it's really cool because i kind of i hope to do it but you never know with bodies and you know you can't it's not hard science in that sense but it's like the science does say it but you never know how the reaction actually because everyone's different as well everyone's different and but that was always there and the no crash is there because you don't get the sugar crash because it's like same as your kind of blood sugar levels you don't we have like you get about four and a half percent yeah of sugar as opposed to 11.

15:46And the second reason is because it's natural and the L-theanine kind of, you know, stops it from cracking, you know, spiking. So that L-theanine matcha is a green tea. It's a form of a green tea. So in that sense, that affects that we've had that for ages. And I don't think so. I think we don't see any, I don't know, you know, you're probably referring to a specific brand, but they don't really play at all in that can space yeah I think their main we have the data of course and it's you know it's it's very small yeah because I at the end of the I also think it is doesn't feel like a me too yes it is also just a can better for you I think they advertise and finding energy that's good for you whatever like that we have we've been doing that for like eight nine years yeah you've paved the way I think they've done you know good job or other people with my child like the much a trend that is the global trend that should explode globally yeah the holiday in Panama.

16:42I love surfing in Panama with my family, I went surfing in Panama. And even there, in South America, or Middle America, matcha was everywhere. So it's just this massive local track. Yeah, it's funny because matcha's been around a long time as well. Obviously, it's been around for centuries, but it's also still been around a long time. I went to Bournemouth University and I was very into health and wellness when it was in very early days of nowhere near what it is now so we're going back to like 2014 2015 and i was that weirdo that when i got matcha last day all my friends were like what is this green light and i was like well yeah but that and that was then so it has been around but yeah it's just it's it's just completely taken off and i think it's taken off i think we don't for us that has had no kind of impact yeah whatever i think it's it's the more impact indeed that matcha i also think it's like a definitely a great trend and it would be more impactful for coffee sales let's say the people taking an iced latte or a matcha latte instead of their milk or coffee or whatever so I think um yeah it's a yeah it's a great product and I think it's but it really plays in that it hasn't really kind of come over into the to the canned space or the energy space yeah so do you drink coffee I do one coffee a day okay I also just like the flavor in the morning so I have my I've really fixed morning habit.

18:00Okay. Just like, you know, cold porridge with my, I have nuts and then blueberries and then I have like one oat cappuccino in the morning and then I have like a tenzing when I come to the office and then depending on how I feel the day I have one more post-lunch or sometimes pre-lunch or another one but like two tenzings and one coffee. But I'm very caffeine sensitive actually so I don't, after three I never have a tensing or any coffee or any caffeine yeah it's funny it used to have an effect on me and now it doesn't so I'm like I must be knackered for coffee to not I must be running at 100 miles an hour because I get 3pm and I can have coffee in I mean my wife she just has sometimes she's like still working till late she has a tensing at 10 and sleeps fine I don't do that it's very different again differs massively per person and if you could sum up tensing in one sentence what would that be for you in one sentence well you know our kind of we say life's too good for bad energy which i think is a nice way we've said that for a long time and i think it's all about yeah that's just one sentence there but it is like kevin sums it all up in a fun way um because also i think what's really nice about this is still my one sentence now i'm doubting myself i'm gonna continue but if we want to sense life's too good for bad energy yeah and then i'll explain that as in you know it has multiple elements of course because you know bad energy is the old artificial energy and we say you should have good energy but also i like it because if you think about the traditional artificial energy drink space you know it's like i feel it's quite 90s marketing now so it's like it's always about the individual it's always about that formula one driver it's always that extreme sports athlete effectively it's sports you watch you don't participate in a wingsuit flying event or a formula one that's just 22 guys and you know no one else does that yeah well we've always been about the community so yeah from the beginning we again you know like i said we're a lover we organize climbing events so we've been big on the climbing community or even little events where just people get people into climbing or running events or like all the things we do is about community if you look on our kind of instagram there's no fake actors there or like extreme athletes there's all just communities that we'd go we do with maverick we do attending trails runs i don't know if you've seen them on our instagram definitely i was that was kind of where i was going with my next question was like your community is amazing like i um i always see you attending like run clubs and so much stuff you put your together your own run club yeah um and climbing especially and i think that's really interesting because that's something that's not like a, it's not necessarily, well, it's not like paddle where it's like blown up and everyone's playing bloody paddle, but it's a sport that I think people are very dedicated to.

20:52And it's hard work. I've done it once and there was a lot of tending around and lots of your logo, but oh my God, the next day my forearms, I was like, what is that pain? I didn't know I had a muscle there. Yeah, exactly. Right here, yeah, exactly. I was like that. I just remember that being agony. And it's in Vauxhall, I think, the place. That was our first place we were available, one of the first ones, yeah. Oh, really? I'm kind of in the arches. Yeah, and your logo, you're still on there. So every time I drive fast, I see it. And yeah, you do so much with the community. And I think, well, firstly, that is the way you build such a law of following.

21:23But also, it's the way the marketing world is going. Yeah, exactly. And it was really quite funny as well, because I started, obviously, this is kind of, I didn't expect the drink, of course, when I started. All I knew is I wanted to be from nature for nature. That was my kind of rough idea. and low-carry, obviously take out most of those sugars. And then obviously discovered this recipe called a Tenzing but then I was like, okay, but how do I then bring this world to London? Because I remember the first activation or the first money I ever spent was on bins in Nepal because I was speaking to the Tenzing family and I don't even remember but there was a lot of news at the time about being very literate on Everest.

22:02Yeah. So I like just called him and I was like, oh, I just saw this news came out is there anything that we can do because as you know that we've, you know, to discuss this together how can we also make a positive impact on nature and then we started building bins on the way to Everest which obviously the least cool or whatever things you can do if you're building a business in London and then yeah but it resonates with your story it does it does but I don't know then it did a lot but we love it and we still we still build more every year and but then luckily enough the bouldering really came up so the indoor climbing came up in London and it was really when I started that was just I think there was like two bouldering walls in London.

22:39Now there's like 14. So we really grew with that sport and maybe we even potentially helped build a bit. And I do it twice a week with my son. So it's an amazing sport to do. And it did grow. And it's also still growing very, very fast. Like comparable to what at one point was fast growing sports in the UK. So it is quite, it's hard, but it's also easy to get into. You just rock up and it's all different levels. And you could go climbing with like the world's best climber and it would still be very fun. while if you play tennis with someone. Or like a run, I guess someone could be really fast.

23:09Yeah, exactly, exactly. You can literally, you know, the most difficult one's right next to the most easy one and they can help you or she can help you with the, you know, with the aura. So it's a very social sport. It's very individual, actually, because obviously you have to climb yourself, but it's probably the most social sport I know because you go in and people just constantly helping each other. So it's a great sport that, yeah, we really kind of embraced. And speaking about Red Bull, actually, and their kind of approach to marketing and what you led for eight years in the UK. When I look at Rebels Instagram, I was looking at this morning, they never sell you a product.

23:42Like there is never any product shop really in their Instagram. It's all lifestyle. It's all events. It's all kind of, yes, sports. And that's the way they are sharing with you a lifestyle. And I think that's an amazing way to build a community because it does, when you're sold to, generally people don't like it. They want to be involved in what you're doing, but they don't want to be like, oh, buy my product. Whereas I think Red Bull do that very well. And I see that kind of trickling through on your Instagram as well, and I was looking how you have very much like a, you know, a kind of byproduct of joining our clubs is that hopefully you do get into Tenzing as well.

24:20So how did being at Red Bull, such a massive, massive brand with like, you know, their kind of logo all over the world, how did that shape you up for starting your own brand and then it being a challenger brand where you don't have the kind of footprint yet that red bull have and how did you bridge the gap um so there's two things i'd say one it's very important to realize i actually had this debate with someone on linkedin the other day i don't know if you saw no i didn't it was about our out of home we had an out of home campaign and it's just a big can where we say life's too good for bad energy and then we say 100 % from nature, low calorie, no junk.

24:59So on that, it's not about our community. It's just about the product. And there was a debate. Someone said, this is not good. It should be about emotion and culture and all that kind of stuff. And I'm a big believer. And what people forget is they see Red Bull now, but they don't see Red Bull in the 90s when it launched. And the very first I had a Red Bull, it was a radio ad that went something like, hey, what are you drinking? Well, I'm drinking a Red Bull. Oh, what's a Red Bull? It's an energy drink. Red Bull gives you wings. It was literally just explaining exactly what the product was. And I think people, and the first Formula One team, they only did that after they sold billions of cans.

25:39Right? So people go, and that's where a lot of mistakes are made. With like, you know, I'm a founder and I'm going to start a community. Well, you know, you've got to also make sure that people understand what your product's about. Yeah. So you've got to have the order right. I genuinely believe that you start with your product, like craft beer. It's like we're in that sense, you know, beer was all about whatever, James Bond or football. And then the craft beer came along and said, no, it's about beer again. Let's craft real beer. That's what we did effectively in the beginning. Yes, we embrace these communities as well.

26:10But we also talk together. There's actually, you know, this electrolytes from Himalayan rock salts in there. There's like, you know, we didn't add artificial vitamin C like even Innocent does. it's just like add artificial vitamin C's to their boost but we have acerola cherries in there so we take our products very seriously and talk about that because again the other artificial engineers can't do that they can't go hey we just you know we cooked up another nice batch of aspartame in our factory delicious so they have to talk about lifestyle now so I think don't be as a founder when you're starting don't think oh that's I kind of baked it in, you know what I mean?

26:52So we did start with those small communities, but in the small communities like Bouldering, we also talked about our products a lot. We sample and we talk about it. So I think, you know, I think that's extremely important to kind of really focus on the product as well in the beginning. I think you're so right, because actually that's a bit like ultimately the lifestyle stuff does come later because you brand build. But if you get the product wrong at the start, you never get that opportunity to brand build later on. So you have to be, you have to be also being strong that people want your product and like it.

27:22So you have to do that like market research testing, which is telling people about the product. So it's a bit of a catch 22. It's very, yeah, it is. Yeah, it's hard. So it's like, I've always thought if I would, if I would have named my drink, like Fyta Cocoa had a good balance in that sense. Where, I mean, the markets didn't become big enough to be multiple players and they won kind of, you know. Yeah, they do smash water, coconut water. Yeah, but they were quite like, it was like very clearly coconut water, right? Well, with me, it was always about tensing and then natural energy. So I had a lot of explaining to you in the beginning.

27:58So I made my life a bit more difficult in the beginning because it wasn't like, you know, if I called my drink, whatever, natural energy, whatever, I can't come up with a better name now, but something that was very close to. Yes. Then in the beginning, it would have been way more easy. but then you know we've had hundreds of people copy us and you know that would have been way more difficult to keep our kind of if we would have just called it natural energy another one would have done that then you just take it away from each other but now we've had this loyal you know we've built that loyalty we've built that brand awareness and that brand love so you're right it is that kind of difficult tension you're building a brand but that's on the long run you gotta think about your product first yeah and you recently got b corp Yeah, well, ready.

28:43Really early on, I think we were one of the first, well, I think we were the first soft drink for sure in the UK. Wow, to get B Corp. Yeah, yeah. And B Corp, like, it's a funny one. I'm still, like, learning a lot about it and getting my head around it and whether it's, like, a bit of a greenwashing term to, like, have a B Corp. Is it a tick box for businesses now? Or, because it's hard to attain, like, certification, there's a lot of kind of process you need to go through, or does it genuinely have a positive impact on the business? Look, I think this is one of the most... Talking about greenwashing in general, not B Corp now, it's such a horrible topic nearly because on the one hand, it's good that, let's say, media outlets or yourself as a podcast host is sceptical, right?

29:34Because if you're not sceptical, then people could just slap stuff on their cans or on their products. But if it just turns out to be too sceptical, no business will ever do anything. And I found that a very kind of bit frustrating, to be honest. We did the qualities of research the other day, or like a couple of years ago, and people that didn't know Tensky at all, and they turned around, and we've got on our camera, B Corp, a carbon label. Yeah, I was just literally looking at this. And this one guy, he had just seen Sea Spiracy. You know, I don't know if you know that one. Oh yeah, we know that one.

30:08Yeah. And they go, if they've got this on the can, that means they're worse. This probably means that Tensi is worse for the environment. So it goes so far, the greenwashing theory, that you might as well just not do anything. And I think if I look at B Corp, they're very strict. And what my personal biggest take out was, because I was very environmental focused. And actually B Corp has that as well, but it's also way more wide. it's also like you know for instance in rewards I used to live in Holland or I used to live in the UK then I lived in Holland for I'm the new back to the UK I got more more B Corp points for as when the you know CEO or whatever is in the country of course and I actually think it makes total sense if I'm like if there's some CEO who's running this business from a different area like you know so they've looked at it in very very great detail and it's like you know how many people have shares or how many people have this and it's very it's And I think it's really good on all those elements.

31:09And I think they're even making it more strict. So, and again, rainforest lines certifying teas. You know, that is that we go above and beyond. Like a carbon label, for instance. So what we did stop, actually, as a result, we never got accused from greenwashing, but the whole offsetting became such a big thing. And we were offsetting. It cost us a lot of money. But then everyone was like, oh, if you're offsetting, then we're greenwashing. Okay, we'll stop. you know so it's like yeah it's like it's why it's i you know as someone who's really passionate about you as you notice it's like you know but again it's hard because if you don't challenge it it's trying to find that then it's like yeah then everyone will just slap it on i think because people don't have time to do due diligence you come and go to a drink and go hey is this all so it has to be skeptic you have to be critical but not skeptical and also so many customers talk say that they're like sustainably focused and that's a really big priority for them when they're shopping yeah but actually when we've done research and i'm sure you've done research price is huge like price is the biggest kind of factor as to why someone will or won't buy something so it is again coming back to right well you can have all the sustainability credentials but that does impact the price you know because it costs us more money as a business input into that infrastructure i even need people we've got people in the team to kind of look after yeah but it Reflecting the RRP.

32:30Yeah. So, yeah. But speaking of money, so Tenzing is now the third biggest energy in the UK behind Red Bull and Monster. Obviously. Well, no, no, it's in Tesco, we are, and in London, Grocery. Yeah, we're the third biggest. But the two biggest kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you've recently raised money through Heineken. Yes, I have, yeah. Which is so exciting. So tell me about that process and kind of why you made that decision. Yeah, well, it's a good one because I think you've got a lot of options. One of the key things for any founder, I guess, is like, you know, how do you fundraise? How do you fundraise?

33:01Where do you fundraise? And so my whole philosophy was I went alone for a long, long time. So we moved. I was lucky enough that my wife also has a job, a decent one. And then we could, but we still had to move house. We had small twins. They had to go from a room each dude, like in the same room, no gardens, you know. So we literally had to cut back a lot. Let's stop our gym. We weren't suffering, but it was like from a different, obviously I had a good job. So, but then, so I didn't take a salary for like four years, I think. so self-funded for a while then got one funding in and then this was our second funding round and what I noticed is like you know energy is so that's what I was saying with number three like the grocery channel so everywhere where we operate we're either number one or three like for instance climbing or London universities we're the number one so when people really understand it really get it we're the number one and when we where we put a bit of attention like grocery or Tesco or London we also are the number three so overtook like a rock star relentless and we really see this kind of new generation that's kind of tired and it tastes really good yeah exactly the quality is amazing like it's not so many products that you try and i mean i get sent a lot of products from the podcast obviously and i'm trying them and i'm like oh gosh i don't like it like it's not good doesn't it's no doesn't taste good this tastes delicious yeah exactly and it's it's really actually i would say like so in energy it's quite normal to have like a total of peach on the can there's no single trace of peach in the can so people actually when you add actual raspberries as opposed to artificial raspberry flavors people notice and like you know but who knew that that would be kind of a radical idea yeah oh my god oh you actually add the stuff that you put on the canvas it's bizarre yeah so that's why indeed we have a lot of repeat purchase but like what we didn't as you know the uk it's got 45 000 independent stores right every corner has a couple of stores and as a small business very hard to get into those um you know i think you're out and energy is the number one in soft drinks the number one skew is red bull monster like the top four skews are red bull monsters and we were not playing there so i really wanted a partner that could help us not only financially but also kind of you know with that so they took a minority stake um which allowed us also and i think that's also cool with energy is like it's very it's very concentrated market if you compare that for instance with beer there's so many brands value for your attention well we are now the second in share of voice so we're the second advertiser in energy we've passed monster uh so you know that sense that you know obviously they always say if you get to that the second spot will eventually become yours definitely um so and so investment that we can then spend in marketing and people and also innovation and all that and stuff and secondly they will help us in the convenience channel yeah convenience you're right actually thinking about corner shops and independent shops as well but also like those kind of corner shops like the well they're generally supplied by the likes of you know a booker or a best way yeah you have to do so much education at the depot and that kind of level but also then store manager level also manager that's feet on the street right that's really tough yeah it's a leaky bucket as they say like you know so you where you get it listed in a store and then even like sometimes we've noticed it sells so well and then they forgot they even ordered it because it's not top of mind with them.

36:13So it's like the faster you sell, then they go like, oh, you know, then you go back here and they say, we just had four cases, they're gone. Oh yeah, but I forgot to reorder. So it doesn't even matter how fast you sell, they're reordering. And that's what they've got. So with the Heineken now, they visit 6 ,000 stores. You know, they've got a huge team there that goes out. So we'll just be part of that team. So that's just amazing. And would the idea one day to be kind of like fully be taken over by the... You never know. like I have I genuinely mean that I was always in it to kind of just keep doing this I wasn't you know I think that's very good to do even if you do exit because it will always take longer than you think yeah you know and I think if I hear sometimes I want to launch this on excellent four years you go like it has happened but it's like one in a million and that's actually have to be willing to go along and you know it is a long game yeah I think we're nearly coming approaching 10 years and you do hear that quite a lot actually that's like kind of that invisible gate moment where you go okay now we're really getting big and at first that was really the case so one day maybe maybe maybe yeah and speaking about innovation you've obviously just um launched your brand new one but i wanted to talk to you about the fiery mango um so that you said was the world's strongest natural energy drink uh with functional ingredients like now is it cordyceps there's lion's mane you've got lion's mane um and more caffeine than usual than your usual ones right yeah what sparked that and how did you strike the balance between like boldness but with your core like natural ethos on that skew yeah so it's been that skew became a mix of multiple insights over the years and one of them you know being you know we're just discussing the deep habit so again if people had the choice like if like again if you think about it if we all our memories were erased and if they all go into the supermarket now we would be the biggest I'm not a big offense to that because we taste better we've got better ingredients but it's just a habit that you need to break yeah one of the key things is people go uh it works because it's bad you know so and the natural can't work I need an energy now because you're talking about you know decisions before like in price number one and energy price number one I'd say it doesn't give me energy is your number one right so and indeed your rise the sustainability angle is more like your repeat purchase but not the reason to buy so oh yeah so we were like we want to also show that natural nature is way more powerful than what you can make in a lab yeah we found all these like strong ingredients so we had like again natural caffeine we have the L theme it's our base recipe was still there but we had a lion's mane we have that visible D magnesium and we called it supernatural energy and we also and that was one insight and the other insight was um energy drinks actually perform quite you know not as good in the winter time and that's when you need most energy so and i actually so we the lorries took about two years to develop this drink wow and you know when you feel really low on mood and energy in in winter that's actually a vitamin d shortage and we all get vitamin d shortage um especially in london because you don't go out and out to the high buildings there's hardly any sun and then again if you have vitamin d it doesn't work you need magnesium to activate that vitamin d so we did all this research talked a lot of you know nutritional doctors again again sourced it all from nature we got vitamin d from pine trees we sourced our magnesium from the irish sea lion's mane is of course lion's mane so that's just from nature and then we so it was kind of our winter edition so that's why we're in a fiery mango we should fire up your winter and it was really funny because we launched at the exact same time as one of our old school artificial ingredient ingredient energy drinks players i won't know the name they also had a winter edition and the only difference was they added an artificial dye like one of them made it blue so it's the exact same recipe but they made it blue and i mean that's the difference i think with like new energy and old energy they don't care what they put in there it's not all price related yeah you know we just actually went above and beyond i said what are the things that you actually need in winter yeah and uh yeah that's like that's so that was the key key insight actually and that's a delicious one actually freddy shout freddy um he he sent me a couple of cans and i really like that one yeah it's a really nice one we're actually now relaunched that in tesco in a bigger can okay like 500 yeah so then it'll be the same caffeine content as a tender but it'll just be yeah so uh but it's still more caffeine but it'll be the same caffeine content let's say a monster um so it's just the double of the 250 mil at the end of the day but yeah you need to go and you've probably already done this but i see so many rebel and monster cans in like white vans of like builders and trainees you need to find out where all these trainees like drink or where they park their vans at night and leave them all like a package yeah and say like swap up your energy or something because they live off this stuff yeah exactly yeah um and i with my day job coconut i am i had a event at the mod with a lot of like the mod and the sites and and i was the red bullet monster in there i was just shocked and i said actually like about tenzing there and i was like this is mental that they had such a stance and it worked so bad for you and there's like people preaching you know on one corner of the hall about like you know plant-based and how it's really good for you and then like red ball had a stand and i was like guys what's the connection here like how is this you know yeah um but what with kind of heineken's backing now what's your vision for tensing over the next like five to ten years and what would you say actually no i've got another question i'll say let's do that one first which one which one so like with the kind of heineken backing now what's your vision for the next five to ten years for tensing yeah so look also we don't have a massive international drive in the beginning so a lot of people go like okay you're going to launch internationally i think for us like it's such a huge market we're just scratching the surface we show that when we're available and people know about us we are sometimes the one number one number two or number three and then you know if we can get that is huge so for us it's like just literally availability it's getting us in the hands because i also believe like once you have your favorite drink you want to be able to get that favorite drink anywhere everywhere yeah so you want to be in the in your on the car to your whatever to your parents or you want to be able to pick up the tensing so we are like for instance BP we're not yet the shell or not the MFG so we just want to get that's I would say the key first goal is to get us everywhere and just to kind of keep doing our community stuff make that do that on a bigger scale and just also drive awareness like I said we're the second biggest kind of advertiser now in share a voice so just get the message out because we see a real big color color correlation so for instance in London we're the number three but that's also where our number three is an awareness.

43:05In the UK, we're number seven, that's also where awareness is. So the fact that if you now have the number two share a voice, it means that you'll get there eventually and that it's a huge correlation. Like people have to know you to be able to buy you. Definitely. You've got to climb up that kind of brand awareness ladder. Because actually that's such a big part of it as well. It's just people even knowing you exist. Exactly. They know what it is. I think that's why, again, our out of home is really about, again, then coming back to the other question, like what do you do with the first community?

43:32like so our groundswell let's say and our real stuff is all done in the community but you know when we when we talk about uh our ads it's very often product led yeah because that's still like oh i've seen this tensing for what is it even and then you go oh it's 100 from nature yeah yeah so that's still a lot big job to be done there and what would you say your biggest kind of your proudest moment so far at tensing has been

44:00yeah I can just say it's been many but I think at the end of the day you just shout out to Freddie I mean I think just the whole team you know I think all my most fondest memories are we achieved something as a team yeah and you know that makes me probably proud I'm never like it's really hard sometimes people go to me oh you must be so proud now that you see it everywhere this doesn't really resonate I don't know because it's also so tough you might see yourself on a Tesco waitress shelf you think oh it might be gone in a second you know i think there's always this fear yes but i think what always you know keeps and i'm always very honest as well about my with my team about like the mental challenges i might have about like oh how scary it might be so i think you know that we're just you know plowing on together and doing this together is the coolest thing i think and i think you know and i've always had that even all the jobs i just also want the team to think you know when they look back on that period while they were working at tensing that was just amazing time and something truly unique.