Jens Knoop: Turning Chocolate Into a Premium Experience

0:00Jens Knoop:Knoop has already established 25 stores in the UK and plans to expand to 40 by the end of 2025. I got spoiled, rotten as a child and it was always chocolate. And because I was so good and I knew what reward was waiting for me at the end of the day, it was always chocolate. So I always had this, this memory of chocolate, of being the reward at the end of the day. I wanted a hot chocolate and what I found was not very satisfying. It was either mass market, undefined, origin, very sugary or so high end that I would have to take a credit in order to afford that. So a little bit out of my reach at that time.

0:36So I thought there's nothing in the middle. It gives me choices that is affordable, but still premium. I will never forget this. The first customer came in, looked around, very interested and ordered a double espresso. so it was a full page spread in this saturday supplement this is the best hot chocolate in the world if the customer asks recommend me something i always empower them to be honest and i say i really love the 49 if this is too sweet or too dark let's go there but i want them to have to be honest to the customer take responsibility and then immediately follow up afterwards is this the right one.

1:17Jens Knoop:If there's anything you could have done differently in the early days what would you have changed? Start earlier? Yeah but I mean it took I'm 54 now it took that experience I have done I had before as an artist and working in consumer research traveling the world summing this all up that brought me to Knorps so I wish I would have had these experiences earlier. I was in Venezuela with a cacao family that has been farming for 200 years and I've seen the beans and the fields where the cacao is coming from so there's an emotional connection there. Before we get into today's episode I want to give a shout out to a special sponsor Sam Lawrence Recruitment.

1:59Jens Knoop:We all know that finding the right people or the right job can feel really overwhelming and that's exactly where Sam comes in. He really just gets it. It's not just about ticking boxes. It's about connecting the right people with the right opportunities. He takes the time to understand you and exactly what you're looking for, whether you're building a team or taking that next career leap. So definitely get in touch. Trust me, you'll be glad you did. At Getting to Grow, I believe that growth starts with connection. And that's where our sponsor, We Are All Marketing, comes in. I'm super excited to be partnering with Vic and the team over at We Are All Marketing.

2:33Jens Knoop:They're not just a marketing agency, they're storytellers, strategists, and your biggest advocates. Whether you're building a brand, launching a product or strengthening your digital presence, We Are All Marketing helps you turn ideas into impact. With a personalized results-driven approach, they ensure your vision reaches the right audience in the right way. Ready to grow your business? Visit weareallmarketing.com and see how they can help you thrive. Getting to Grow is also brought to you by the Coconut Collab. And full disclosure, as I'm sure most of you are aware, I work there. So I know how much love goes into everything that we make.

3:06Jens Knoop:We're all about creating delicious, dairy-free, plant-based treats that do not compromise on taste. From our creamy yogurts to our indulgent desserts, everything's made with coconuts and a whole lot of care. If you're looking for something naturally good but seriously tasty and my favourite is just our natural coconut yoghurt, I have it most mornings with granola and lots of honey. Trust me, you're going to absolutely love it. Hi everyone and welcome to The Ned this evening. I hope you all had a gorgeous, gorgeous day in the sunshine because It has been phenomenal outside. How are we all? Very good.

3:39Jens Knoop:Good. I hope you're excited. This is actually my second live podcast at the NED. I did one earlier this year with the founder of Grenade. But this evening, it's all about Jens Knup. Can we please have a round of applause? Thanks, guys. Thank you for joining us tonight. For those of you who don't know, I am Zoe Fox, and I'm the founder and host of the Getting to Grow podcast, where I chat to founders in the food and beverage world about kind of their journey. So from early stages to kind of what they're doing at the moment to what's future and kind of everything in between. But as I said, tonight we are joined by Jens Knup, the founder of Knup's.

4:19Jens Knoop:Now, I've got to read this out because there's so many amazing kind of facts and figures about him that I couldn't learn it all off my heart. So please bear with me. But Knup's has already established 25 stores in the UK and plans to expand to 40 by the end of 2025. while also looking to launch in global markets beyond the UAE where the brand has already got a store in Dubai. Recently, the brand was ranked in the Financial Times FTSE 1000, Europe's fastest growing companies in 2025. Jens has brought an innovative and personalized approach to something as classic and comforting as chocolate. You took a niche and you've had a lot of fun with it.

4:57Jens Knoop:And I went into the store on Saturday with my mum. And what was really cool actually is when I went in, I looked at all the like there's so many different flavors and kind of what you can add on and it gave me like periodic table vibes because absolutely is that yeah because it's like there's there's so I was like my gosh what there's 70 to 73 and it brought me back that I'm so dyslexic so I was like where do I begin we could talk about this later on because a lot of people have the fear of numbers I'm not great with numbers now always admit that but I do understand we have to bring some sort of order into this chaos and I thought let's start with the percentages But there are different ways of approaching to find the perfect chocolate for you.

5:35Jens Knoop:Which we'll get into. But your passion for sourcing the best cacao beans, which everybody, look at this. Venezuela in the house. From around the world, crafting unique blends that has made Knubes a much-loved brand. And today we're going to dive into all about it, your life, what you kind of were doing before, and then obviously to the household name that it is today. There will be a 15-minute Q &A at the end, so please do get some questions ready. and it is a live podcast recording so if you don't mind turning off your phones or just making sure that they're on silent that would be fab and one last thing this door is shut so if you do need the toilet you just need to head out the back amazing so yes I like to start at the beginning when I chat to all the founders that I speak to and right at the beginning so when I was doing my research it was your grandmother that used to reward you with chocolate and it sounded like it was like this kind of ceremonial sort of experience.

6:29Jens Knoop:Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Absolutely. So I was spoiled. I got spoiled, rotten as a child. And it was always chocolate. And because I was so good and I knew what reward was waiting for me at the end of the day, it was always chocolate. So I always had this memory of chocolate, of being the reward at the end of the day, or I didn't come in like a feral child. but so it was this very emotional strong bond for chocolate but of course I never knew you could actually make a career out of that so that started much much later I gathered a lot of other information prior to my first store opening in in Ryan 2013 so what did I do that influenced my chocolate journey I studied fine art obviously I didn't make any money but it fueled my creativity I worked in consumer research that gave me a lot of insights in the desires of consumers.

7:28I heard a lot about small affordable luxury, which I think is just fantastic. And chocolate is the key for that. And this is what I heard globally. So I thought, OK, this is all very interesting. What do I do with this amount of information? and the key moment when I thought there is something was living just around the corner here actually next to Bart's hospital and walking the winter of 2012 2013 into the west end it was cold I wanted a hot chocolate and what I found was not very satisfying it was either mass market undefined origin very sugary or so high end that I would have to take a credit in order to afford that so a little bit out of my my reach at that time so I thought there's nothing in the middle that gives me choices that is affordable but still premium I was also living in on the south coast east sussex rye if you've ever been there if you haven't been there you got to go because that is where the original knob store is and rice pretty as well um but somebody gave me these proper this property which is just absolutely stunning it was an old art gallery a complete white cube which i like anyway and that gave me the space to impose that idea of doing something with chocolate which i like which i have a very strong emotional response where i see a niche i didn't see any other competitors on the market so why not in april 2013 open the world's first chocolate specifically chocolate drinks cafe in rhine east sussex where

9:22Jens Knoop:else i mean you i had so many questions in between from the start to now that you but i'm gonna i'm just gonna reverse a bit okay so when you were when you were at um when you were younger in germany i actually found out and i didn't know this but you guys celebrate well your christmas eve is a lot bigger for you than christmas day right yep 24th um everything happens at six o 'clock on the 24th everything is hidden behind a closed door and then the big revelation on the 24th six o 'clock presents mayhem screaming children a light dinner and then everybody passes out and then the next days are all about recovery and get the family coming together so the 24th is the big day and is that there was a tradition um that you decorate a gingerbread house on the 24th i was reading is that right yeah and very often it's inedible but yes massive the bigger the better and beautiful decoration full of sugar and fairly flavorless um and it's really interesting although like i'm very lucky to speak to so many amazing founders and they either start businesses from like a passion um like as a childhood memory um or it was from like a need so they kind of found something that they weren't getting already from what was out there um and is that where your love of chocolate like originated from um when you were younger yeah absolutely that association with the treat with a very fond um childhood memory that's that's where the the love for chocolate was coming from but i knew nothing technical about chocolate i knew nothing about no nothing about sourcing that it could be a career i never thought of that as well and fast forward a few years you came over to the uk you came to study in bournemouth university um at the Bournemouth and Poole College of Art and Design.

11:11Okay. Photography. Great. You don't make any money out of that, especially when you come out of an art college. Yes, that's what I did. Work as a photographer.

11:20Jens Knoop:And then how did you, I guess, transition into the world of work? So I was doing some commercial photography, but I was the proud artist who didn't want to do commercial work. so I decided to split art and commerce and went for a commercial route going into video streaming which was focus groups opinion research and this is where I heard the voices of small affordable luxury and the kind of little permissible treats that we like in the UK you know absolutely I was going to say actually everywhere and was there a time when you you saw it and in an experience or whatever when you thought people really like having this like small treat the small luxuries versus you know obviously spending a lot of money on something yeah and you saw it i think specifically in fashion or in in makeup or when you just yeah like girls stepped it up a little bit the lipstick and you just went for the next more expensive brand even though the color might be the same but it had a fancy name or the belt this small item you want to treat yourself without breaking the bank.

12:24But again, it took me a while to get to chocolate.

12:26Jens Knoop:Yeah, and it was walking down in the West End where you were like, I want a hot chocolate, and you couldn't find it. And I couldn't find it, absolutely. Still tough. And then, so, then Rye, and I'm interested in Rye because I've actually been to Rye and you're right, it is stunning. It's so pretty. It's absolutely beautiful. I went there a couple of years ago with my mum and we had a lovely weekend. It's so, I love the cobbledy streets and everything. So tell me about this, tell me about this cube that you were given, the white boxes, you say. Okay, so I connected with the tenant there because we're both photographers.

12:57He wanted to move, so that place was empty. And it's just, it's a beautiful town. It has a lot of heritage, a lot of history. They're very proud of it. The positioning of the building is just absolutely stunning. Three aspect ratio. You can see the whole landscape. You can see Dungeness if you're into that view, the power station in Dungeness. but it's right next to a very important landmark the land gate which was built in I think 1366 and everybody who drives into Rye will have to drive through that land gate and can see Knopf's on the left hand side I loved it I introduced myself to the land lady she asked for a business plan I had no idea what that is and what to do with it so I thought okay let's just make her some hot chocolates she liked it um now she's very proud um but obviously it was a dare because nobody has done that before in a sleepy town or let's say and a town that's on and off because there are days when there's absolutely nobody there and then it's just absolutely relentless on beautiful weekends during the summer but it was just i had to do it it was a stomach feeling was a gut feeling it felt right i love the product so everybody else will as well

14:14Jens Knoop:Yeah, absolutely. And your first day of opening, who was your first customer? Oh, Christ. I will never forget this. The first customer came in, looked around, very interested, and ordered a double espresso. Okay, well, I forgive him. It's fine. But the coffee is also very good, naturally. but it was slow at the beginning because people were curious but the locals thought they really don't need another coffee shop because they didn't understand the concept yet it was obviously a slightly more minimal environment than the local communities is used to because it's more oldie worldly with with corners and big seats and I had a store there was absolutely no seating It was quite bare and very focused on the menu wall, which was the highlight and still is the highlight in the stores.

15:10So it took a little while, but eventually they came around to it.

15:14Jens Knoop:And you mentioned how like hot chocolate and your stores and Knup's is so sensory driven. You know, you walk in, there's a lot going on. You can see it being made. You can see the kind of all the different flavors and the add-ons. How did you go about in the early days, I guess, developing your range of flavors? How many different percentages of chocolate do you have in store? I just mentioned that when I thought it was right, I assumed others would like it as well. So I made a decision for others because it's a concept that wasn't there before. So I took responsibility to make choices. The menu was smaller because there was also less chocolate to choose from.

15:58The market has changed now.

16:02I experimented at the beginning. It was a very short period of experimentation because I opened knowing pretty much nothing on the first day. And the first day, that's when my real learning started. Just like when I came over to England and I thought I spoke English, try again. I may know the grammar, but I didn't know how to communicate. And this is exactly what had happened. I had to be in the store day one and get to know my customers, get to know the texture of the chocolate, how they like it, the temperature, the volume, the pricing as well, of course. This was all based on customer feedback.

16:44And nobody left the store without giving feedback to me. That was just essential.

16:50Jens Knoop:That's really, obviously, as you're right, essential in the early days because learning from your customers and being on the ground with them is so key. Do you go back every now and again into stores now and kind of get behind the machines? Absolutely, because I love to. I stay connected to the managers, the staff in the store, because it gives me a sense of temperature, of vibe, of we are in 26 stores now. And Belfast will be different to Rye, will be different to Chelsea. And I want to understand what the customer feedback is. And that very often, besides Google and you may remember TripAdvisor, but I also hear it through the store stuff.

17:34What customers want, what they don't want. Inspiration, of course. I get a lot from them as well. And I like being there. I like being in the stores. I don't hesitate grabbing a customer and just ask. I have no hesitation. Very often I don't introduce myself. I'd kind of eavesdrop there and listen to what they're saying. And then, oh, yeah, very good choice. But I want to be connected to the staff because they are an extension of me. And that's all over the UK and internationally as well.

18:07Jens Knoop:And when you had your first store in Rye, how many flavors did you have at that point when you opened? So I started with, I think it was seven chocolates because this is all I could source. with my limited knowledge I had. So seven chocolates. I also had milkshakes. I didn't have the iced chocolates yet, but I did have a great amount of additional ingredients already. And I think there were 20 ingredients you can add to it. And I had pretty much the same milk choices. So over the years, all that has changed was more chocolates. And I wish there would be more space on the wall, but I will be in trouble because choosing then would be even more difficult.

18:51But I had to, I promise that we stop at 21 chocolates to choose from. And then we also added, because of the strong vegan trend, which is not a trend obviously anymore, we also added the iced chocolates, so classic chocolate milk, which are a little bit lighter option. And that has been added, I think, five, six years ago.

19:14Jens Knoop:Yeah, it is delicious. You all must go and try. And actually, just before I forget, you've all got a goodie bag on the way out as well, which has two different blends in there as well. So make sure you get your hands on them. And how did you go about sourcing the chocolate? So, again, at the beginning, because it was a small business, very low volume, I sourced what was on the market. Off the shelf, and now all this has changed. I have educated myself. We have direct contacts with direct relationships with farmers and makers. We are at a at a size where we can have bespoke products just for us from the farm, the volume we need.

20:00But at the beginning, it really was, OK, let's see who else added chocolate. What else is available? What do customers want? do they want flavorful do they want more subtle flavors milk chocolate I immediately had to add more milk chocolates to it we are in the UK everybody loves milk chocolate so I had to crank that up very quickly but it's based on okay I have those seven this works that doesn't work let's add more what works I guess as well when you had your first door it's a great way to like

20:37Jens Knoop:test before you scale so you can go and say yeah actually this is working really well i know that this has if you know it's the best seller here it's probably the best seller generally across the population and at the time what was the best seller in your first door milk chocolate classic milk chocolate not even a complex flavor profile it's the the chocolate we all grew up with the treat um a slightly caramelly and fairly sweet and but then you can play with that center at the moment it's labeled as a 34 classic milk chocolate with caramel notes on our menu but then you can start sourcing around it and have darker milk chocolates or from specific origins with special flavor profiles they still sell really really well and rye is obviously as we've spoken about it's absolutely beautiful but some people might say you know starting in quite a small little town might not have the footfall to kind of back your idea but obviously we now know it was an amazing kind of starting point did you would you say that you had advantages actually starting in that area that maybe somewhere like London where you would think from day dot maybe you'd have kind of more footfall the advantage of being in Rye in such a small town like Rye is you can't miss the store when you come to Rye you will come to Knobst you can't escape even if you thought you don't want a hot chocolate this is the only thing you can do in rye so yeah great advantage absolutely no competition yes there are classic coffee houses and tea tea houses and then some restaurants but absolutely nothing like knops so it was a dare but it was also quite a safe environment because there is no competition and of course the rent compared to london rents or leases are is much lower and the local authority was actually very generous and exempt me from business rights otherwise it would have been a little bit more difficult at the beginning but um it it was very supportive um to bring something new yet so familiar to a town that is quite focused uh being so close to the sea on food they have food festivals there so they welcome new ideas which hopefully at this stage cater for the whole family and for all the tourists as well as for the locals so the response from the village at the time the community it was great no no this is never going to work give it three months he needs to add sandwiches he should be higher up on the high street not another coffee shop yeah that's what it was and we all know like the power of community it's so important to have like you know your community like backing you and like understanding what you're doing so how did you how did you i guess then work your way around that big challenge well actually um the concept was proven because of um rye is very popular when it comes to tourists it's it's a it's an hour and a bit away it's nice getting away from london it's right by the sea it's quaint it has good food so a lot of people came in from london came into Rye and and spotted me because there was nowhere else to go and they really enjoyed what they had there um I made sure that they all had their perfect chocolate drink and that was noted I don't know if you all remember TripAdvisor it's from a long time ago I still use TripAdvisor I'm big on I'm big on reviews okay but it's kind of it's below Google somewhere you know but But suddenly, Knobbs and Rye, which has no seating, no food, it's in a building that used to be stables for Forge, was number one in East Sussex of all eateries.

24:22So Hastings, Brighton were all below me. So suddenly people thought, OK, there is something here. and then two years later after my opening in 2015 I think the Daily Telegraph came down and wrote wanted to include me in an article about the trend of hot chocolates and they asked me for some quotes and then the writer came down again and then they sent a photographer and suddenly it was a full page spread in this Saturday supplement this is the best hot chocolate in the world

24:55Jens Knoop:and then did you have literally queues out the door that's it no actually the locals gave me their blessing and brought down the supplement and asked if i have seen this yes i have but no of course then they they noticed that i'm actually contributing something to the locals and to the local food scene that i'm not taking away that i'm adding something that i'm not another coffee shop that i stick to my philosophy my taste my path and that i embrace what is around me also bringing a lot more people down into rye as well from like maybe surrounding areas because they're not just going to come to your shop they might then pop i don't know into a local like vintage store and then you know other shops around there so they're spending their money elsewhere as well absolutely and and the positioning of the shops is so fortunate because there is a road where absolutely cannot ever park, but there are four spots outside the store.

25:50So it almost becomes a drive-through. Nobody else has that. So it was actually the wrong right end of the high street.

25:58Jens Knoop:And chocolate tasting and blending is almost an art form. Could you share any early mistakes or learning moments when you were perfecting the product? So I learned very, very fast. I started knowing about texture. I was also reading up about the preparation of chocolate drinks. And what was very important 5 ,000, 4 ,000 years ago was the froth, the foam, the air that was infused into the chocolate drink. Because the top of the drink was taken off and was either given as a gift to the gods or to the deities or to the king. They never finished the drink. so I thought okay I need to work with it I obviously want everybody to finish the drink so let's aerate the drink like a flat white or latte so at the beginning the very first drinks I made a couple of weeks were quite dense imagine French hot chocolates that are based on cream lots of chocolate lots of cream very heavy a dessert you wouldn't want this every day I want people to have more hot chocolate every day so I needed to twist it a little bit And temperature, I pretty much got that right at the beginning.

27:12So it's drinkable straight away, but it's still perceived as a hot chocolate without burning yourself. What else? It was trial and error, but because I was in that store and I got instant customer feedback because I wanted that. And I wanted honest feedback. I adopted very, very quickly. when it comes to choosing the chocolates I learned a dramatic lesson actually very recently let's say four years ago or so don't eat the chocolate before you choose it as a drink it tastes very very different so I had these wonderful beans from the Chiapas region in Mexico two tons have been flown in I was working with a chocolate maker to convert those beans into chocolate buttons for our hot chocolates and the first test solid chocolate I was eating and I thought this is the best chocolate in the world nobody can beat me it had notes of cherry which I'm very keen on and then I threw it into hot chocolate and it tasted of ham that's all it was and I was so disappointed and from then on I decided I will never ever if I look specifically for a drinking chocolate or chocolates be used for drinking i will never eat it before i test it as a drink to avoid disappointment then later on if i decide this is a really good chocolate let's eat it as well just to detect if there are any flaws in there but the first step is drink it first and then eat it never the other way around everybody was disappointed and i cried it right here

28:53Jens Knoop:such good chocolate and like coffee culture is obviously massive in the uk you know we are total coffee snobs down south um and are you kind of coming in to bring in like chocolate culture and how you know instead of maybe going for your coffee in the morning you walk past and go do you know actually i want i want a cup of hot chocolate on my way to work oh absolutely for me hot chocolate is the new coffee um which other coffee shop would you see 21 different origins uh that's not going to happen um it could but it should be quite complex operationally no absolutely um we don't serve into addiction coffee is addiction if i don't have i don't know how you are but if i don't have my second coffee in the afternoon i do get a slight headache so i and that's where the second coffee helps chocolate has a very different job to do it's about it's about nourishment yes there carbohydrates and there's protein in there but it's about escape it's about gourmet experience it's about childhood it's about coming together coffee shops can will probably never ever cater a whole family you wouldn't bring your toddler into a coffee shop that's just not the right environment um also we know that there are communities out there that religiously don't have coffee but they love hot chocolates perfect my best friends i love them um but chocolate has that it has a lot of attributes at a coffee shop cannot deliver a totally inclusive and talk to me about your stores as i said i went in on saturday and there were so many different kind of options how do you take the customer through um you know the array of options that there are um so we said earlier on that a lot of people are scared of numbers.

30:40I'm one of them, so I would be confused. And it is a periodic table, but it has to have some order. So what I discovered when people struggle and look at those numbers and it all goes blank, I just tell them, forget what's on the menu. What's your favorite chocolate? Or what was the best chocolate you ever had? And very often we talk about skiing or we talk about Venice, never about the chocolate, but about the environment. We talk about dietary requirements. some people prefer vegan, others have to be low sugar. Or when I'm really tuned into the customer, I ask, what's your mood? What do you fancy?

31:19And then I translate this into a certain flavor profile, into a percentage, and then usually the country associates certain images as well. Spices, if you want, I have a customized with one of our 20 spices. And then we forget everything that's behind us, just to take that fear of choosing wrong. If, and I empower every manager and whoever works in our store, if the customer asks, recommend me something, I always empower them to be honest. And I say, I really love the 49. If this is too sweet or too dark, let's go there. but I want them to have, to be honest to the customer, take responsibility and then immediately follow up afterwards.

32:08Is this the right one? If the customer says no, we drag them back into the store and say, okay, you're not leaving until you get it right. Because we know when the customer leaves and isn't satisfied, that feeling will linger like a bad aftertaste. They may even forget why they didn't enjoy Knorp. So I encourage everybody working in the stores, follow up with the customer, take responsibility, fix it immediately if possible. So the customer has a really good experience once they leave the store and want to come back.