Annabel Scholey on the Grief No-one Talks About After Divorce

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1:20Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum. Today's guest is the wonderful Annabelle Scully. You'll know her from The Split. I absolutely fangirl over her when we start talking about The Split. I am not embarrassed. I love that show. I'd happily go and watch it again tonight. In fact, when I leave the studio today, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to re-watch The Split, all right? No judgment. She's also been in Rivals, which is coming back this November. She's in a new series called Winter, which is tipped to be the big one this autumn. She's just an amazing actress. And actually, when doing research, she hasn't really spoken a lot about being a mum and about family life.

2:05So going into this interview, I've got to say, I wasn't sure where we were going to go. I wasn't sure what we were going to get. I wasn't sure if maybe Annabelle was going to be a little bit more guarded. But it was such an easy chat. Annabelle talks about weighing up career and becoming a mum and how to navigate that. And we also talk quite a lot about divorce and navigating that and the grief that comes with divorce and saying goodbye to maybe this fantasy that we've carried in our head of what family life is going to look like. I absolutely adore her. Here she is. Here's me chatting to Annabelle.

2:45I love your podcast. Thank you. My friend Fiona came on and she was like, you have to go on that. Because it's such an isolating place being a mum, I think, sometimes. And so I just, I need to hear reality. I made friends with mums in my baby group when I lived in London and I picked the cynical ones on purpose the ones who just told me how rubbish it was obviously they adored their kid but I can't deal with that kind of everything's perfect because it's not or if it is it's not for me and I found that really difficult yeah that's so true Talking about Fiona, I can say it now because you've brought her up.

3:32Yes. I'm such a massive fan of the Split. I know you must get it so much. I love you in Rivals as well. Thanks. A different role. We're very different. I was saying earlier to the girls, I got a little bit obsessed. I was late to the party and then binge watched it on my own and then found myself listening to the albums. I've got like a ride on Normo at home. So I had my headphones in, listening to Olivia singing and kind of driving along, cutting the grass. I love you as a music. It's so beautiful. Yeah, yeah. But then feeling it very, very deeply. Yeah, right. Sobbing. Sobbing. Because it's written for me.

4:07Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it must feel quite surreal to... Because, I mean, you go through life working on different projects and then you go to one that just lands in such a different way. Yeah, it was... I mean, that part, that show was a really big deal for me. I feel like I've been, I've worked my whole career, which is brilliant, and I've done loads of different things, theatre, and I haven't been typecast, which is amazing. But it took me a really long time to break into TV. Right. And I did some good stuff before Nina, but Nina was the one where I went, oh, my God, I taped. And I spent ages on the tape.

4:46And I had real wine in the tape. And I was like, right, I'm just going to go for it. And actually, it got given to somebody else. and so it went away. Yeah. It went away. I was like, can I audition for Rose? And they were like, no, no, no, you're a Nina, you're not a Rose. I mean, I think they cast a button by then anyway. But it then came back. She didn't want to do it. And I was like, my God, I just, sometimes you just have a feeling about a part and I was like, I know this is my part. I was a little bit young. It doesn't happen very often anymore, but I was a bit young for the casting. so I had to go to the audition really really early in the morning at Ealing Studios because they needed to cast the part really quickly and everyone else's names were on the board I was sat there like oh this is horrific but I really like a challenge I love adrenaline I'm very competitive I was like I'm getting this part and and I did and I and it was a really I mean the scripts were amazing the characters are just so brilliantly complicated and flawed and ugly in places and spanning all the different generations of being a woman and that cast we didn't meet before that but I knew of Fiona because we'd bounced around audition rooms together for a long time um and obviously knew you know Stephen and Nicola and Deborah but I um yeah it was just a magic a magical group of people who got on super well and our chemistry was excellent and yeah it was just it was a really really important moment for me and we do get told that a lot that people love it and I never ever get bored of it because I would kind of be up there with you know how Emma Bunton I would imagine never gets bored of people saying that they love the Spice Girls I would say that you have to keep it for life and just kind of roll with it definitely why would you be annoyed by it why somebody's telling you how great you were in something great to have that connection to have that connection to it for it to mean something yeah um and I would imagine that well for me I would imagine that it's one of those shows that whilst filming it it's it's strangely revealing and healing for you when you're filming it?

6:48Well, it was. I mean, and I actually decided to get divorced during Series 3. That was surreal. I mean, I was surrounded by really good friends in my girls in the show and I knew it was coming. I knew it was coming. I was very, very unhappy and I do chat about that. I'm quite an open person, so I was using them. And then I made the decision one weekend, well, we both did, and came back to work to my divorce lawyer office on the Monday. And I walked in and I was surrounded by all this divorce paraphernalia, how to divorce well with a child. And I thought, my God, this is so surreal. Can I represent myself?

7:33I've got the script somewhere. Yeah, but it was quite a lovely environment if I had to do it, which obviously was a very painful time, but it was also a good moment for me to do it because I was cradled by my friends. And surely doing that show kind of informed you a little bit of how you would like that divorce to play out. Very, very much. I mean, I remember when we started researching being so shocked at how bad it can be for a dad. Yeah. I always just thought, you know, surely you would just split the childcare. care and but no the the rights were particularly bad for the fathers and my daughter Marnie had grown up with two self-employed parents so her dad and who's a writer as well as an actor and he was around so yeah it was just it made no sense to me to ever fight 50 50 it just was it would have been wrong it just would have been completely wrong obviously I wish I had her all of the time but I would never have wanted to do that.

8:37And now, I mean, going into the winter, you have a lot going on and it's very, very exciting. Yeah. Because you have winter, which all I've seen of it, I've not, we're recording this quite early on so there's no edit for me to watch. No. So we rely on you. So you can pretend it's wonderful. It's the best thing I've ever seen. It's the best. Yeah, thanks. But it is one of those ones that, you know, you get sort of tipped that it's going to be, it's tipped to do very well. Is it? Yes. Well, that's nice to hear. That's what I've heard. Yeah, do you know what? I think, well, Richard Armitage is my co-star in it and he's just, he's kind of adored in the industry and so that's a good start, isn't it?

9:14And I've worked with Eagle Eye before on The Couple Next Door and the team Happy Duck in Belgium, we filmed in Belgium and they're brilliant. They're just such a brilliant group of people. Everyone is so hands-on. It's a real family and, you know, if you're away from home, away from your family, being with a team who really know and love you really helps so I love I love that but um yeah uh Winter I think it's a six-part drama for ITV and Richard and I are sharing the I guess the the lead together and um he is his character is extremely annoying to my character I play detective inspector it's my first time playing a police officer so I was very excited about that really yeah I'm still a little kid I just want to like dress up.

10:01So I was really happy to put on those shoes or big boots as they were. But yeah, I think it's going to be really good. It's got a lovely European flavour to it because it's been shot over there and the director, Dries Vos who I worked with on The Couple Next Door, he just he's so ambitious with the way he shoots things that he invents camera rigs. He invented something called the rainbow rig so that he could get like an upside down sweeping shot of Richard in his lab. And he's always like pushing the boundaries. I'm struggling at the moment with remembering my lines. I think I'm at early stages of perimenopause.

10:41So the brain fog, I've never, ever suffered with that before. Ever. I've always been completely on top of my lines. And I worked with these guys 18 months earlier and didn't have a problem. I think I was 40. and yeah I just kept getting a load of brain fog and the director, Driese, he was like what's going on with you? I said I think it's perimenopause his wife is going through it he went I know exactly it wasn't like this two years ago for you I was like no it's all happened in the space of 18 months where it's just a little bit more difficult to focus and that was hard on winter because it was all police jargon and it was hard I had to really have a word with myself and go, right, you're not going to psych yourself out.

11:28You have got this. Well, because we know that that just won't help. It makes you not going to do anything. No, it makes it much, much worse. But I got to ADR yesterday and it was that particular day where I pretty much had a nervous breakdown. I was like, oh, good. It's that scene. Great. And he cut most of it. So I didn't need to learn it anyway. But I'm getting that now. When I'm going to things and they want to do bits to camera and I'm like, do we need to do it to camera? Can it be a voiceover? Do I need to learn it? Because you feel unsafe. Because also the amount of time now that it takes to learn stuff.

12:06Yeah, it's different, isn't it? I am a bit like, do we need to? Do you know what I mean? It's different if you're acting. I have to. You absolutely have to. Can I mime? I'm not a guy that's worth it. Just physically act it out. Exactly. Jack Duckworth used to have labels everywhere, apparently. Did he? Yeah. So if he was picking up a prop, it would have his lines in. Yeah, I've had that before with actors, older actors on stage. What are you doing there in the kitchen? Yeah, yeah. Why are you staring at that cup? I mean, on The Split, we were hiding difficult bits of jargon behind folders and things.

12:43Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just that little bit of a reminder. Sometimes you have to, just to get through. And it must be very different on set because whereas, you know, when you're in theatre, it's so drummed in, right? And you know that nerves sometimes might make you go, but somehow you open your mouth and it's there because of the repetitiveness of it. Which is terrifying, isn't it? When you're like, oh my God, what am I saying? I'm still speaking, but I don't know what I'm saying. It's coming out. A performance of a lifetime. Whereas, you know, on set, it's such a quick turnaround those words have to be picked up and plonked out quickly and you also, there's more of a sense when you're on set that you're going to let down a lot more people it could be an amazing take and the worst is if you're on the other actor and you have a mind melt and you're like oh my god it's their close up this is horrendous that doesn't happen now as much because the pressure's not on you then but yeah I do feel I haven't done theatre for quite a few years actually I stopped and stop, but my last thing was in 2015.

13:47Oh, wow. So I haven't done any theatre post having my daughter. So I don't know how that would feel now. I think pretty scary, which means I have to go and do it. Absolutely. Yeah, it has to be. You've been doing it a lot, haven't you? Yeah, and I go on tour next year. It's amazing. It is amazing. God, I really had the time of my life doing plays. But you are right. It's different now that you're a mum because there is a different juggle. Yes, and I don't live in London. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, that would be missing a lot of bedtimes. Yeah, it's just, it's a lot. I already, because I only have her 50 % of the time, which is just the thing at the centre of my life that I will never get over, the grief of that.

14:35So then I just have to be, I love my job and I love my career, but I have to be careful about what I choose. And it has to be so worth it to drown out the mummy guilt. Because otherwise I just won't enjoy it anyway. And so I think that's why I haven't been back, really. I mean, COVID happened just a year after she was born. So that was, I mean, theatre kind of crashed, didn't it? But it did crash. And then it took quite a long time for it to come back. And then it just also coincided with me getting quite a lot more screen work, which has been amazing. And I've really enjoyed being on screen and the detail of it, learning about how, you know, how your face works and like, you know, what you can get away with and what you can play with.

15:22And I'm fascinated by the whole crew as well, the whole picture. I really do love being part of that team. And I think I'd kind of oversaturated myself with theatre. I'd done a lot of really long runs pre-my daughter. But I really, on the last thing that I did, I remember thinking, God, everything that I used to love about this, I now hate. I don't want to start getting nervous at two in the afternoon and then travel in and then it was a musical I was doing. And I found it, I love singing and I've always, I used to want to do musical theatre, but then I went off into the drama school world. But I found it terrifying and I lost a lot of weight and I just couldn't really eat because I felt so sick.

16:10I feel like musical theatre is a different ball game. Yeah. I feel like with a play, you're all on that journey together, on that train together, and if anything happens, there's a deliciousness in figuring it out, right? Yeah, absolutely. Musical theatre, if that train is out of the station and you're not on it, if you miss something, you're off. Well, because the music is dictating the pace. So it's a massive mistake and everyone can see it. So, yeah, that was the last thing that I did. And I just thought, oh, God, I need a break from this. And then I took a really, really long one. Which obviously you meant to take.

16:48Yes, of course. Let's go back to early days and talk about your childhood. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Wakefield in West Yorkshire. Yeah. What was that like? Yeah, it was good. I mean, I had great friends at school. I was a, oh God, I was such a swat head girl. I'm an absolute perfectionist, which has been great in my life, but also means I've got a very loud head. And I'm quite hard on myself still. But I didn't ever feel like I properly fit in. And it was because of that. And I got to drama school. I went to Oxford, actually, Oxford School of Drama, which was such a good school. and it was small and I got to live in a house with girls in a house called Hagborn, so we were the hags of Hagborn in Oxford.

17:36And it just fit me because it was a slower transition before I then went to London when I was 21 and I got my agent. So, yeah, but I missed... I never went back to Yorkshire. Didn't you? No, I didn't. I mean, I felt very at home and myself when I got to drama school. And it was nothing to do with my family, who I adore. it was just that I just felt like I was in the right place. And, yeah, I've just never, I've always been south. So that's hard because I don't see them as much. My sister stayed up there. We had babies at exactly the same time, which was both brilliant and rubbish. It must be so weird seeing your mum and dad with her children and actually with you, like, oh, we're so far away.

18:20Yes, it was annoying. Not weird, really annoying. I gave birth. I don't want to say it. Shoot, my mum was at both births. They happened three days apart. My mum had come down a week early because I was so late. She came down and she just sat with me while I got more and more angry. So I was not a very happy pregnant person because I like to move around. I was on the cross trainer at 41 weeks and I think at one point I punched a wall. My mum was like sat there and the time was ticking and my sister was due on Christmas Eve. I said it was Christmas I should say as well. And then I went into labour and it took two and a half days.

18:57And I think mum was at home for one night and then the phone rang. I was like, that's Rosie, she's in labour. And I was like, yeah, it's your sister, she's in labour, I've got to go. I was like, great. So she went off and had Christmas with my sister and helped with the newborn. And I was like, oh God. But, you know, I made my choice to move away. But yeah, it is hard, Dan, because I feel like I'm sometimes not as part of the family. as they are. They're a real solid unit. And that is something I think that's happening a lot for our generation because before that people had babies or they coupled up and they stayed relatively close to where they grew up.

19:37You know, I won't mind my dad moving from Italy, so maybe not. But there was definitely a different sense of that village and being close together. Whereas now so many of us move away. Yes. So there is that thing of, oh, well, how am I meant to lean on the village when actually I've moved away from the village? The village is miles away. Yeah, I mean, there isn't really a village. I think we make it work, we scrabble. I mean, I'm remarried, so Jim, my husband, is a great stepdad, so he's got a normal life, so he can help a bit with Marnie. What does his normal life look like? Well, he's a normal human, not an actor.

20:16And Marnie's dad lives nearby, so we just juggle all the time, and my friends have been great as well. But yeah, we don't have any... My mother-in-law lives quite nearby. Okay. But she's got my sister-in-law in Teddington and she's got three kids and she's quite often on her own because her husband works away so she has to go there and it's just like, ah, there's no one left. Yeah. It's hard. Yeah, it is. It's really hard. Did you always know that you wanted to be a mum? I did. I knew I wanted to have a daughter. Really? And my mum reminded me that I'd said that from being quite little. I have a bit of a sixth sense in life.

20:57I've got a very strong gut feeling about things, which sometimes is a pain because it will come in and I'm like, that's not the outcome that I want, but I know that that's what's going to happen and it does. It's weird. My uncle, he's no longer with us, but he was a medium. So I feel like there's like stuff in our family. I might sound completely crazy No I like it But I did know I had such a strong feeling That I would have one girl And then I spent the whole of my labour Instructing the many midwives To refer to the child as a he Because it was a boy I think because I was so worried I wasn't going to get my girl No it's a boy Can you just say he Stop saying baby it's a he And then she came out And my mum was like it was a girl and apparently my face just lit up.

21:50And that just, like, self-preservation, kind of like, you know how disappointed you're going to be. I'm a control freak, yeah. I just, I think I was just, I mean, look, I would have loved to have had a boy. Yeah. But I just, in my head I was like, I'm sure she's meant to be a girl. And there she was and she came out with jazz hands. She'd taken two and a half, I nearly said months, it felt like months, two and a half days to come out, an epidural, pephidin, which was a disaster. It was not a good birth at all in London. But yeah, there she was. And I was like, yeah, there she is. There she is.

22:25So I did know. I didn't know when it would happen. My career was as lovely as it is now. For me, it went too slowly. I mean, a lot of people, a lot of my friends would be like, for goodness sake, you've worked solidly. And I have. And I'm very grateful for it. But, you know, I wanted it to happen quicker. And if it had happened quicker. And also, it's really difficult, isn't it? Because so many people define success in that world differently. Well, what is it? Yeah. What is it? I mean, I still don't know what it is. It, I suppose, is having amazing experiences, being allowed to, earning a living, having a nice house, being able to look after your family.

23:07I think that's what it is. And therefore, yeah, I feel I've got it, which is very good. Yeah. But I think, you know, I went, I did a lot of years of rejection. A lot of almost so many, it's between you and someone else and then it was someone else. Like a decade of that. I used to drive my mum insane. And so I didn't know when it would happen because I was, I was and still am, but I was very ambitious. Because we're so trained to put it first. Everything else is secondary. Don't go on holiday. Don't do, you know, don't do any of those things. So unhealthy. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And also, how are you meant to portray real life when you're not living life?

23:49Completely. How can you be a rounded, how can you be a good actor? How can you step into people's lives and minds if you haven't observed them? But trying, telling that to a 20-year-old who just wants it to happen. You know, not be scrabbling around doing part-time jobs, which I did at the same time. But yeah, you do need to live life. And I just think that's what's glorious about, It's probably the only thing that's glorious about getting older and becoming a parent that you get so much perspective and life experience. And you just, everything just switches around. And for me, that was a very, very healthy switch.

24:26And actually, when Marnie came into the world and my focus changed to her, I got better work because I was just more open. I didn't care as much. I thought I'll always care because I do. I work really hard, but it was in a different way. I wonder if there's that, I think sometimes when you go into a room, there's that level of pick me, pick me, and there's always desperation that's attached to it, right? Winning. Yeah. Whereas actually, that kind of maybe just eases off a little bit. Like, this is me. And it's great, that feeling. I mean, I don't know about you, but for me, it was probably second half of my 30s.

25:04Yeah. Maybe 37 even, when that has really set in. and since 40, now I really don't care. It's so nice. It's so weird as well. I don't care about ageing. I just feel like, what a privilege. It's great. Absolutely, and you're in your own skin and that is really beautiful in itself. And you look at, I mean, it's not all about actresses, but I look at the actors that I really admire, like Kristen Scott Thomas and Leslie Manville and they just are. And they're so sexy and beautiful and powerful and I really want that. And I think having a girl as well, I think it's really important to give her that advice or show her, show her that that's what's important rather than panicking that you're ageing.

25:47I mean, look, you know, I see myself ageing on screen and it's not that pleasant, but it's also not the be all and end all. It's not why I'm an actor. And I am able, after the first 10 minutes of ADR, to go, right, I'm not looking at that anymore. I'm actually looking at whether or not I'm telling the story and I feel lucky that I'm able to do that because I know some people can't. Yeah. I think it's really important that we just let it go. Yeah, and enjoy being here. Yeah. Because, you know, we just don't know when it's going to all go away. Yeah. Oh, God, sorry that's dark. No, no, but it's so true.

26:30Yeah. Was there a point then that you decided, I think we should just go for it in terms of yeah yeah so so my first husband is nine years older than me so he I think he had sort of gone I don't know if this is going to happen for me and then we got together when he was I think 37 or 38 and yeah I mean being me control freak me I'd got I knew I'd got uh the second series of the split right that was in coming in the march and that's nice kind of going I know that's there and that takes the pressure off massively, massively I needed to know that there was another way back in and I was filming a show called Britannia, Jez Butterworth for Sky again series 2 and it was a really long shoot and I had this three month gap in between and I thought wouldn't it be great if I could just have a baby in that three month and it worked and then I rang my agent he was like bloody hells go Lee you have nailed the timing and I was like yeah have I yeah okay but then I had to film pregnant um how was that it was hard was it difficult telling people as well because you know at that point you're going to have to people are going to have to shift things around a little bit well my agent was excellent he was like we don't have to tell anyone until you've had your scan yeah so we didn't but unfortunately I had to do some horse riding before that but it was very low-key it was um it was like walking on a beach and I'd done horse riding before but nevertheless I was a bit like oh I don't know how I feel about this um and then we told them and then I went into night shoots and I felt so sick it was awful and it was a real night shoot till 5am uh so I did that for a while which they were very sweet they were bringing me like hot chocolate to keep me awake and um And actually, ironically, I ended up with a really huge part in series two.

28:33I didn't, and I so wanted to do it because it was such a brilliant ensemble and it was my character's story in series two. And they were like, yeah, we're going to write it in. They didn't write it in. They just gave me bigger and bigger cloaks and bigger and bigger hair. So by episode 10, I'm enormous. Enormous. I'm immense. But yeah, I did that. And then, yeah, I remember I was seven and a half months by the end and I had a couple of dark moments in my trailer where I was looking in the mirror and I was like, oh, God, no, I just don't want to be on camera. I don't want people looking at me. I just want everyone to go away.

29:09So I filmed The Baby Club until I filmed a super busy show. I know The Baby Club so well. I told Marnie this morning that I was coming to talk to you and I said, do you know who she is? And I said, do you remember The Baby Club? And she was like, is that that show where everyone sits in a circle? I said, can you remember? it literally saved me in covid it's amazing i love it well i filmed that when i was seven and a half months oh god but every time i went and sat down which was one of these somewhere with it i think i'd pick up a book and then i'd go and sit down i couldn't sit down without going are you in the right place every single time i sat down oh it's coming out oh god that's that's a lot but at least it was about babies it was about babies look if anything had happened i I would imagine that they would have just kept filming.

29:55There's a slightly different... Get it all in a different way now, guys. Let it out. Did you feel like you were being taken care of whilst on set for, like, up until, you know, seven and a half months? Yeah, I did, although it was very hot and it was a very physical shoot. Yeah. And I have a really bad habit of faking that I'm OK. And I think also, because it was 2018, so it was still the industry hadn't fully caught up with pregnancy so I was very aware I didn't want to be a nuisance I didn't want to seem like I couldn't do my job um and actually I should have just asked for more help because I was tired and I was really it was really physical I was wearing leather and a big wig and and it was a really emotional part she was a horrible character to actually but it was a really vitriolic um you know I had chains around me at one point and I you know it was a lot yeah and I didn't ask for help and actually since then when I've worked with actresses who are either pregnant or or have new babies I always make sure that I make sure they're okay because I still think that we're in a habit of pretending masking and not asking for things and recently it's happened and I was with a co-star and she was just carrying on and she was knackered and I said, have you asked for this?

31:29Have you, no, no, no, no. I was like, you should, you should ask for this stuff. You're not asking for anything much at all and it's actually okay and if you just ask for it, I'm sure that they will give it to you but we're just in a habit of just getting on with it because we're terrified that we're going to be an issue and then they won't want us back or even now. Not so much for me now, because I think at 40, you don't do that anymore. You're like, no, I need this, and I'm going to say it very nicely and politely, but I am going to ask for it. And I do think it's important to spread that around in life, in the industry.

32:03Absolutely. I'm a big believer in that. I think we need to talk. Did you feel relieved when you got to the end of the shoot? Very. But then I did an audiobook, which was just totally ridiculous, because at that point Marnie was sat in my chest. You know that point where you can't get behind the wheel? Is it like eight months maybe? And my friend had said, I'd not done an audio before. She was, oh, you'll be great. Audio bricks are great. She hadn't been pregnant before. And I was sat with my legs apart and I was gurgling. They were like, I think there's a bit of noise on the microphone. Maybe we need to do that again.

32:36I was sweating. I had to take my boots off. It was Christmas time. I was just growing. I had edema for quite a lot of my pregnancy. I was just, I was big. I was bloated and I was cross. So I did that. And then I did an Asda Christmas voiceover campaign, which was delightful because it was really nice money. But again, I was like, I was sat in the booth with my legs wide apart with the baby between my legs going, Asda at Christmas. I was like, oh my God, what are you doing? So I really did work the whole pregnancy. But also doing stuff like that, It kind of affords you to be able to relax a little bit the other side.

33:14Being freelance is tough. You just never know. No, well, that's the problem. It's always difficult to say no because you never know. They might just not ask you the next time. That's a balance that I'm still working on because a lot of my best mates and my husband, you don't need to say yes to everything anymore. You really don't. It's really important that you choose because actually that says something about you as well. But it's so ingrained in me to fight and just keep fighting. But they want me. All I wanted my whole career is to be wanted. It feels so good. Yeah. The email offer. I love that word.

33:53Now you have to start looking at it and going, but do I want to do that? Yes. And that's lovely. It's a lovely switch, but I haven't. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. This episode is sponsored by ZocDoc. Have you been putting off a doctor's appointment or need a dentist and you don't know where to start? We've definitely been there and that's why we use ZocDoc. Actually, over the holidays, Michael had a dental emergency and seemingly every office was closed. But we hopped onto ZocDoc, found an in-network dentist, had great reviews, saw real-time appointments available, which was key. It was on New Year's Day and booked an appointment in just minutes.

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35:15The Red Cross celebrates this historic change and welcomes those who may be newly eligible to donate blood. There's a place for everyone in the mission of the Red Cross, including you. The Red Cross is committed to achieving a blood donation process that treats all potential donors with equality and respect while maintaining the safety of the blood supply. Join us and help save lives. To learn more and make your appointment to donate blood, visit redcrossblood.org. slash LGBTQ. That's redcrossblood.org slash LGBTQ.

35:49Finishing and then leading into this. You're just angry at the end of the pregnancy. Oh, God. Oh, God. Yeah, I was. I was never going to be a good pregnant person. Really? No, I was not. I'm not. I knew that. Because of the controlling aspects of you? Yeah, I think so. Didn't like to be out of breath. Yeah. I didn't really embrace my body. Okay. And I, yeah, I think I went for, I see women now and I wish I'd done that, but they wear these amazing dresses where they really accentuate their bump, they show their bump off, and I didn't, I hid it. I think that winter there were loads of drop-waisted dresses, and I sort of did that for a bit.

36:30I didn't really want to engage with it. And then I had a really early edema from about five months, which was quite painful. So my ankles were huge and I just felt rubbish. And I'm a person who likes to exercise, which I did carry on doing. And I really wanted to be earlier on time. And then obviously I was late and I got induced. Yeah, I wasn't in a good place at all. Especially being late, knowing that you've got to go into the split. So you've already got an engagement that's the other side. So the earlier that she arrives, the better it is, is for you because you get that time together. On track.

37:04Yeah, exactly. Exactly. and I'd sort of made the decision that I wasn't going to take her to set. So you'd made that decision even before you started? Yeah. I saw Fiona. I know she talked about this. I was the other person in the scene where Fiona brought her daughter, which was just like watching a car crash, and I couldn't help her because she was in my character's office and she had all the words. And I just sat behind my desk going, oh, this is a nightmare. This is a nightmare. That wasn't why I didn't want to bring Marnie, but Fiona did some pumping for a bit, which I thought was fantastic.

37:42I mean, I remember that noise, the cow in the other room. I thought, my God, she's amazing. She's amazing. Then I had a chat with Nicola Walker, who has a son who's grown up now. And I said, I just don't know. I just don't know whether I can do it. And she said, I just knew that I couldn't split my brain. And so I didn't bring him because I thought he's in that trailer all day long with my partner, which is not great for them. And I knew that I would find it very difficult to concentrate and I would do both jobs badly. And as soon as she said that, I was like, that's that's me. I'm going to. And she sort of gave me permission to do it.

38:24And also kind of going, oh, she's not going to I'm not going to get judged for that. No, no, no. because I'm with her. Yeah. She's my big sister. Yeah. Yeah, she was brilliant actually because when I did go back, which was both brilliant and difficult, it was brilliant because Nina is a character that I knew and loved. And Nina is, although she's very, she's got vulnerability, her outside persona is quite confident and she dresses well and she's got the slick hair. So I had to kind of like force myself back into that, which worked sort of. Well, yeah, did it empower you or did it kind of make you go, oh, I don't feel this?

39:05No, it empowered me, but I think it was a plaster. I think it was just covering up. I don't think I really dealt with the fact I'd just had a baby. I ended up doing that in lockdown instead. Oh, really? It was delayed by a year, really, because I went on to something else after the split. But, yeah, it was good. You know, I had someone doing my hair and make-up, which is always nice. I plonked myself in the chair and somebody put eye patches on and I just sort of sat staring into space thinking, oh my God, what's happening? Were you sleeping? She was pretty good, actually. I couldn't breastfeed for very long.

39:41Well, this was the other thing. I'd already decided I was going to do three months of breastfeeding and then bottle feed her when I had to go to set. But it didn't work like that because she wasn't getting enough. I had quite watery milk which actually it turns out my mum and my sister had. and she just wasn't sleeping as soon as I switched her to formula which I felt terrible about and I sobbed about it she slept through the night pretty much consistently and obviously the first time that happened I thought she died I was panicking constantly checking hand on chest well no I went to sleep and woke up 8 hours later I didn't hear her at all because she'd just gone to sleep I'm really lucky with her in that way and she's there in the morning just looking at me like you know So, yeah, so I had slept, yeah.

40:27I mean, but I was still really tired and my body was reeling and my hair was thin. And I remember them having to put, like, dark powder in the little bold spots at the side, which was difficult. And I knew my body wasn't, my body actually, in hindsight, looked cracking for someone who just had a baby. I was, look back and I go, well done, you, for, you know, for giving birth and then putting yourself back out there. but I think I in hindsight was I was a bit of a mess and I did have a couple of moments I had one with Fiona we were filming on at Hampstead Heath and I was just sobbing because I just wanted to be with Marnie another time we were on set Nicola and I and we were in every scene she and I and they changed the order of the day and I was supposed to have the last scene off which meant I would make a bedtime and they just flipped it and we were about to do a take and I started getting really upset and Nicola was like right she grabbed my hand she went Marnie is not in pain she's not going to remember this this is your pain she said and which is awful but you can deal with it you are you've got this you are going to be again and actually it was just her going you can do this yeah and she's not in pain and therefore I was like yeah okay okay it's just me I can do this I can collapse in a bit but I was you know I was ditching my my car because I was on the other side of London I would get in my car I was so desperate to have a cuddle with her before bed that I would get out of my car and sprint do the tubes the overground and then just sprint through where my area of town and then I would get back and she'd gone to sleep and I would just sob on the stairs because I tried so hard and she'd gone and I'm glad she was asleep but it was really hard it It was really hard and I just didn't know whether it was okay that I wanted to be filming as well as being there with my new baby.

42:22And that's hard when you've signed up and that's your commitment. Yeah, I mean, I had no choice. I had to do it. I had to do it. I wanted to do it as well for me. I know those things can both be true. Do you know what I mean? It's fine. They were. But for a very long time, this is the thing that really haunts me in my life even now. The mummy guilt for me is so extreme. I find being away from her, I think also because of the divorce, I find it physically painful. And I've done quite a lot of filming away. And it doesn't get any easier. In fact, I think it's got worse. And I did it at the beginning of the year for winter.

42:57And I just, I was so sad at the airport and the car. And I've been at Barcelona Airport, actually really not very well. and Marnie hysterically crying because she was getting on a plane back with her stepdad and leaving me and then having to go and work and just sobbing. I've got lots of memories of sobbing hysterically in my digs because I just miss her so much. And I don't know if that's ever going to go away. I don't know. Maybe when she's a bit older and she's not so small, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. but it's hard. I guess when she was a newborn, she didn't know any different. She didn't know.

43:39Whereas now, having a child who can vocalise the fact that they miss you and they don't want to be away from you, that just hits very, very differently. And she asks me, she's asked me quite a few times, do you love work more than me? She's a little, she knows what she's doing. She's seven. She knows. But she doesn't, she needs me to tell her as well and I just say, no darling, I love you the most out of anyone and everything. but I do love my job and that's okay it's my passion and I've worked hard and we're in this lovely house because I've worked so hard and I really really think I know everyone says this but it's so important that she gets that message but um yeah I've I talk to myself with mummy girl and I do try and unpick that quite often and my best friends I think who are brilliant and they've heard me so upset so many times and I think we've sort of come around to the fact that it's definitely heightened because I don't get her yeah I don't always get her when I come home because it's her dad's weekend and I can't just snatch that away from him because I'm back because that's not fair um so you know I've been I've been at home and not necessarily she's away with him or something so you do you try and keep it as stable as possible so that certain nights she's with her dad's certain life she's with you and if you're there because otherwise it might it's difficult it's difficult so to have that set structure so that she knows exactly when she's where she's going to be when which she needs and she's vocalizing in fact even this morning she was in a bad mood this morning and i i asked her what was wrong and she said i'm finding i thought god this is apt i'm coming to see you i'm finding being in two houses difficult at the moment mummy i was like god i'm so proud of her that she can say that she's such an open little thing um and And she said, yeah, I don't know.

45:31It's just really hard because when I'm leaving you, I'm so sad. And then when I'm leaving daddy, I'm so sad. And it just goes on and on and on. And I said, I'm really proud of you for talking to me about it. It's really important. Is there anything do you think we could do differently? And she said, you could all live in the same house. I was like, darling, that's not going to happen. Nope. Anything else? She was like, no, not really. But we are very, yeah, we try and do, we did a lot of research about this early on. two two three two days two days three days was the advice for that age and that seems to work with her and she said I miss I miss she even calls it two two three I miss two two three because we do sometimes get messed around because her dad Kieran is it's he's freelance as well so there'll be something that comes in or it can't always be like that but she likes it like that so we are really trying to keep it that way for her and you know I've done a lot of work recently in Bristol, which is brilliant because I'm in the West Country and, you know, Rivals is Bristol.

46:28So that's difficult in itself because I'm at home, but I will miss pick-ups. Yep. So then it's a different... I'm, like, racing back, throwing my wig at my make-up artist and racing back to try and do bath time with her and, like, you know... And it must feel even more precious when you know that you've only got a handful of those nights to do it. That's the thing. So if you were to get back tomorrow, she might not be there tomorrow. That's exactly it. it's so much pressure on that amount of time. So I do find what I need to really work on is being in the moment, because I've started to find it difficult to be on set on those days where I know I have to rush to get back to her.

47:09I start resenting when things get pushed back or I get angry, I'm angry about it, and that's not okay, I don't want that anymore. So yeah, still lots to work on, actually. It's amazing that she can vocalise that. Yeah, she's very good. She's always been very, very good at chatting. I think you're probably saving her a lot of therapy and older life. I hope so. Do you know what I mean? By actually, she's not just putting on, not just complying. Yeah. She's actually saying, and she's not acting out, you know. No, no, no, no. She's kind of just being very, very calmly articulate about the fact that she's struggling.

47:44Yeah, she's very grown up like that. She always has been. But we're both big talkers, her and myself and her dad. we do encourage my whole family as well she'll go to my mum about something she's very close to my mum she sounds so grown up she's so grown up she comes to set sometimes she loves the Belgium team I turn around she's in the director's chair and she called cut I didn't know I was in the scene and I heard and cut and I was like oh my god what's happening but she's really good with people I hope not in a precocious way, I don't think so she loves people and she's fascinated by people no interest in acting at all, absolutely no way mummy don't want to do that, she wants to be Davina Attenborough nice, nice, nice, I love that so yeah, I'm very proud of that that she can tell me exactly how she's feeling she's not afraid to speak her mind about things so yeah has there been a grief for you in terms of you know I think we start families thinking they're going to look a certain way and then when we have to let go of that and it pivots that ideology is still there that that ideal of what it was going to be is still there yes oh god so much grief about that so much grief yeah I could get really emotional about that um Yeah, I didn't want my life to look like this.

49:15I'm very lucky. I've got so many amazing things. But I want to see my little girl every day. Yeah. And it's rubbish. It's never going to get any easier. You know, I miss 50 % of her life. I try and be there sometimes, like, we'll both be there for all the plays and if I'm not working or whatever. But, yeah, you know, I wanted... I don't know if I necessarily knew I wanted more children. I would have liked another one now, but I was never the most maternal. I didn't think... My sister really wanted a lot of children. She had one. She had to go through IVF quite a few times. But yeah, I would have liked a family unit that worked.

50:03And I'm a person who... I don't like to fail at things. So there was an awful lot of grief about that. A lot of confusion about how we'd made such a mistake. I mean, it's a mistake we got Marnie, which is brilliant because it just saves you from going, what the hell were we doing? And we both feel exactly the same. We were just not suited to each other at all. We weren't making each other happy and it was very mutual, the feeling. But, yeah, I just think, God, you know, I know myself quite well. What was I doing? What was I actually doing? But then I wouldn't have my girl. And she was definitely meant to be here.

50:39I mean, she arrived with like, hi, I'm here. So that I have to just accept that I'm a girl who likes perfection. I'm a girl who likes things. You know, I was a grade eight student drama school. I got my agent, you know, I've worked. I've worked. I'm a worker. I'm a grafter and I get results. And then with things like that, it's not, it doesn't work out. It doesn't look the way you want it to look. And that's murky. It's messy. But, yeah, I think the most important thing is that she's happy. She's not the only child in the world who's gone through a divorce. We did it quite early. She was two and a half when we decided to split.

51:30She can't read. She sort of remembered being in a house in London. She's having a bit of a delayed reaction, I think, to the two houses now. so that's something we have to look at. But yeah, I just, you know, we didn't badmouth each other in front of her. We have kept her completely out of it, which I'm so proud of because obviously during a divorce things can get nasty and just, you know, it has to because you've been like this, you've been tied in with someone and, you know, and then, you know, it's messy. Yeah. She didn't see any of that, which I'm proud of both of us for that. I'm really proud.

52:06so I feel like you know she's doing well at school she's got lots of friends she's a very confident child who can speak about her emotions and that's kind of that is kind of perfection actually so it's in a different shape but yeah so much grief about that yeah I feel like you have to be kind to yourself because life has highs and lows and it's never going to be completely plain sailing no you know no and the fact that it's happened but you're dealing with it in the way that you are, I think that's going to be a massive benefit to her later in life, you know, to see what her mum and dad did for her and to see how when these things happen, they don't have to look a certain way.

52:53Yeah, and that takes pressure off her, I think, doesn't it? And also, you know, people are not necessarily what they seem. You might have a perfect family on the surface but they might be really lonely unhappy in a marriage. We were not good in the marriage, you know, and I, my divorce has led me to a very happy marriage that I wouldn't have had. So I've got my like nuggets of happiness. They're just not as like brilliantly jigsawed together as maybe they could be, but they are still all there, the pieces. And that's what I have to kind of be at peace with, I think. Was it difficult to let your heart be won over by someone else?

53:32Well, actually, he won my heart over when I was 21. Oh, really? Yes, yeah. I was working in Oliver Bonas in Putney with his sister, who's one of my best friends, my now sister-in-law. And he walked in and I was like, who's that? And she'd actually told him to come to the shop to see a fit bird. And he didn't speak to me. He was so shy, so I gave him my number because I'm not shy. And we dated for two and a half years and then we split. But he was always kind of in my life because Laura was my best friend and my eldest niece is my goddaughter. Yeah. And then he came back on the scene. We went on a date about four or five months after I'd split from my ex-husband.

54:14And it was so I had such a strong feeling of the gut. The gut kicked him. I was like, God, I've got such a strong feeling that this is it. So weird. Bought a dress, went into town and it was just like coming home. he was we we you know we had a nice old snog and stuff and some we didn't really eat anything actually we just drank quite a lot but he he kissed me on my forehead and it was such a lovely like tender thing and I honestly just went oh it's okay I'm back I'm back where I'm supposed to be um so it was not difficult because it was him I was prepping we were doing some reshoots on the split and I was sat with Debra and Fiona I was like god my ex-boyfriend's asked to see me do you think I should go?

54:56They were like, yes, absolutely. Because we were on, we were like, you need to set up some, you need to get online. I was like, oh God. I was going to do it. I mean, whatever, I'm happy to do it. Just sift, sift through. But yeah, I didn't have to. And two years later, we got married at Christmas and Marnie was the bridesmaid. And yeah, so I'm very lucky. So that was all quite plain sailing. I had four months, five months as a single woman. Not very long as to all. So you just chose life timing as everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, we were too extreme when we were younger and we had too much to do separately.

55:37And then all the things that had made us different didn't matter at 37. And all the really, like the core things that I always really loved about him were the most important things. And yeah, we're good. He's my grounded, he's my earth. Yeah. Also knowing someone so well and therefore knowing the impact that they could potentially have on your daughter's life. Yes, and I know that family really well. So my mother-in-law I've known for years. I love that family. I love my sister-in-law, my brother-in-law, obviously my niece is now. I've just known them for such a long time. They're such good friends.

56:15We're going on holiday in a couple of weeks with them and it's like Marnie just, my youngest niece, xanthi is the same age as money and they're thickest thieves like two old women they just go off and for hours together which is great so yeah it's kind of worked out really well so i've had a lot of happiness yeah amongst the the pain but i i'm i remember on my 37th birthday i was still in my my first marriage and i just looked in the mirror and i thought oh this is not your life this cannot be you're not this isn't right and again it was old walker nicola walker she's So why? She said, I was talking to her one lunchtime when we were filming and I was just saying, oh God, I was telling her some things and she said, Belle, this is not good, no.

56:58She said, but I'm not worried because I know you and I know you're not going to sit in this. And that sentence just made me go, yeah, okay, you're right, yeah, yeah. And I went home that weekend and had the conversation, yeah. I think we've all learnt that we need a little bit of nuclear in our lives. We do. As a big sister. Yeah, I adore that woman. Maybe she could just, I don't know, record some sentences for everyone so that every day we download a bit of Walker. She would hate that.

57:32Yeah, she would hate that. Wisdom from Walker. She probably can't remember saying this to me. I don't know. No, she will, she will. Yeah, no, I'm sure she would. They were such good mates. Yeah. I'm working with Deborah now on something, actually. Oh, are you? Yeah, we've been hanging out together, so that's been lovely. Another thing you're doing is blubbing Rivals. Yeah. I mean, talk about a sexy opening. Yes. Yeah, Rivals is great fun. Also, the thing about ageing, right, but you're playing such sexy characters. I know. Ageing doesn't mean you're dowdy or whatever. No, apparently not. I thought when I got to 40, I'd be safe from sexies.

58:11I don't know why. They're coming out in a second part. More than they were. I'm like, oh, my God. they're flying around yeah left right and center i didn't have any in winter which was a delight actually okay um but i've done more than my fair share recently yeah but um yeah rivals beatty johnson's great fun she's just so horrible which is great and to do you know i haven't done loads of comedy i'm more i guess known for drama so to do comedy with that group of people is terrifying and brilliant um it's been really good for me it's stretched me in a different direction yeah yeah the clothes and the hair and they're like it's just going you can be you can be big yeah which is a skill that trying to get that right to allow yourself to do it yeah when you're used to doing some things that are a lot more subtle there was no subtlety in rivals um but yeah no it's a cracking job it's great fun and we've got there's another series they're gonna do another series so i'm hoping i should be doing that which is um okay so spoiler alert you don't die in the next half of Ruggles.

59:14I don't die. Well, who knows? I don't die. David Tennant, we thought maybe he'd died, then he was back. I know, anyone. It could be anyone, but no, I think Beatty's... She's safe. She's pretty invincible, isn't she? Yeah. And there's a lot more of her I hear in the next half. There is, yes, there is. She's not going to cover herself in glory. No, she's going to show another depth of her lack of moral Exactly, yeah. But yeah, it was a really great job to film and then local to where I live, so it's the dream. That's a nice little bit. If you could write a letter on motherhood, who would it be to and what would you say?

59:57I think I would write a letter to Marnie and I would tell her it's okay to want everything. It's okay to want an amazing career and to have adventures and be a mum, and you can still be a really good mum and teach your baby all of the things that you like to know about and, you know, take your baby on the adventures with you. I just want her to know that she doesn't have to choose. And I haven't had to choose, but I want her to do it guilt-free. Yeah. I really want her to know that. And, you know, hopefully she won't get divorced. Hopefully not. but the thing is and I stand by it that you clearly carry a lot of grief and a lot of guilt but I actually think you have given your daughter a gift that she realising that she doesn't have to settle that she is okay to to be living a life and pivot like it is okay I think that is so you carry guilt but actually what gift to give her that's so exactly it and actually when I had that moment in the mirror on my 37th birthday she was so at the center of that thought of I cannot show I don't want her to think that this is love yeah healthy love because it's it's not and she'll copy she will because that's what we do they do we do we copy I've made mistakes because I've copied my parents you know and that's not their fault but thank you for saying that yeah that's it really I want her to understand that we end the podcast with you completing three sentences being a mum means being a mum means walking around with no skin and your heart outside of your body beautiful image not the best keep it poetic I like it since having a child I I think since having a child I have just gained so much perspective about what really really matters um I I still love all the things I loved before but they just they just don't compare to her and I love having that anchor at the center of my life like she is it and everything else pivots around her and that's such a lovely feeling and finally I'm happy when I'm happy when her little hand is intertwined could eat her hand, she's got the gorgeous hands and either we're walking our miniature schnauzer Betty in the woods which we like to do or we are laid watching a 1980s film she's into, Richie Rich what else have we watched recently?

1:02:46E.T. she's like the old films are the best I'm like yes they are Ours went through a phase of loving Baby's Day Out I haven't done that Oh I'll give that one a go Because it's a baby who gets kidnapped. Yeah, I remember. It's really, really funny. She would love that. But we've done It Takes Two. We've done, do you remember It Takes Two with the Olsen girl? Oh, yeah. Watched all that kind of thing. Yeah. But that's my happy place where we're not rushing because I rush everywhere. She's laid on my, we've got a big bed and we watch a film together and she's holding my hand. And yeah, that's my calm place.

1:03:21I love that. Annabelle, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It's been so lovely. I'm such a massive fan. Thank you. Likewise. Thank you.

1:03:56to FDA guidelines that eliminate eligibility questions based on sexual orientation. The Red Cross celebrates this historic change and welcomes those who may be newly eligible to donate blood. There's a place for everyone in the mission of the Red Cross, including you. The Red Cross is committed to achieving a blood donation process that treats all potential donors with equality and respect while maintaining the safety of the blood supply. Join us and help save lives. To learn more and make your appointment to donate blood, visit redcrossblood.org. slash LGBTQ. That's redcrossblood.org slash LGBTQ.

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