Hannah Cooper-Dommett on the Reality of Marriage After Children

0:05Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum. Today's guest is the beautiful Hannah Cooper-Dommett, who is a model, a presenter, she's a podcast host. She talks about her and Joel and their experience of being mum and dad, two little boys, what that's been like. She also reflects on when to actually make that shift and decide to become parents, which was something they really thought about because Hannah's mum had got poorly a few years ago and one of Hannah's main things is also caring for her mum. I always think about that, the fact that we are now coming to that age where we don't just think about the generation to come but the generation before and the impact that has on us.

0:49So it was really interesting to kind of dive into that. Hannah is wonderful and I have no doubt that you're going to enjoy this chat. Here you go.

1:00How old is Dutch now? Five months yesterday. How are you feeling? Everything that everyone said to me is right. But until you've experienced it, like with one, I go, OK, I need to learn everything. I've read all the books. I've done everything. Blah, blah, blah, blah. It's fine. I don't realise until I've had Dutch, number two as we keep calling him. He has got a name. That catchy name. Number two. Number two. I was not okay back on number one. Really? Because you don't realise. I'm always like I'm a true Capricorn. Everything's got to be in place, a plan, perfect, know what I'm doing. I wouldn't know how to be a solicitor.

1:45So why would I know how to be a mother? Yeah. We don't train for it. We don't know until you're in it and you learn. And so it wasn't until I had Dutch that I sort of went, oh, I know. I say I know what I'm doing. I don't. But I'm relaxed in what I'm doing. I know crying will stop. I know they will eventually go to sleep. And in that way, you feel not robbed, but they were just such different experiences. I spent so much time panicking and anxiety and not asking for help because I wanted to pretend I could do it all. But this time round, you almost don't have the, I guess, the shame that people have to ask for help.

2:26This time I'm like, I don't need to prove myself. I've got one already that's actually pretty great. So something's right. Look what I did before. So now I feel when the asking for help comes, I just, I don't care. I don't care hiding if I need help with whatever it is, whether a nursery run or just someone to just hold one of the children down. So it is quite refreshing in that way. But people keep asking me like how I am. And my most used meme that I send back is Ross Geller from Friends when he says, I'm fine. And that's exactly how it's like, I'm fine, but slightly higher pitch than normal.

3:05It's just a lot. It is a lot. It's a lot. And I am really proud of myself that my brain has somehow got a whole other department for number two as well. I didn't know that that was possible. But I just think we are. It's like you're opening head offices all over the place. I see my head as like a department store. I have interiors. I have the kitchen. Husband. Then the kids, you know, like all the different department. Customer service is me. Obviously, yeah. but it's just I'm proud of myself but also I'm exhausted yeah and you just carry on yeah and that's the thing I say to Joel I wake up and I go whoa let's go and then you get into bed and we're too tired to talk to you save all the admin yeah for nine o 'clock at night and I'm like I just want to watch telly yeah you need to I think there comes there comes a point in the evening where you've just got to shut off because me and Tom do some work together so we've written two of three books in a trilogy so we need to write the third book right and it gets to 10 o 'clock at night and Tom wants to chat and I'm like that's Joel I'm sorry it's switched off right now I think it's their creative ways like Joel being a comedian he's so used to being on stage at 9 o 'clock 10 o 'clock that's when he's at his high and mind brain doesn't work like that that's when I need to unwind literally think of nothing get ready to sleep yeah I need that hour minimum and that is where I guess it complements it in a way but it also is too much for me I say to him if you want to go and do that absolutely crack on if you want to do leaf blowing at 10 p.m at night but it is interesting how different we are yeah and I think that we're finding a partner as well sorry can you tell I've had my first a caffeinated coffee for a year.

5:04It's a big thing of you don't know what type of father they're going to be. And I do think like unknowingly, I just went, oh, I'll marry the funny guy because that will always be a good thing. And then I've realized I married a kids entertainer. And it's like, I need to tell more people to marry kids entertainers. Because he's great. He's so good. He's got that energy. and I've always looked at him and admired him for that. Even when he's on stage doing back-to-back things, telly shows, I just look at him and I go, I have not got that energy. But then clearly I do because I can run a household and I've got two kids and they're just very different types of energy.

5:45Well, how much sleep are you getting at the moment? This is again. Okay. Dutch is great. Yep. He's maybe waking once in the night, if that. Okay. And I'm so proud of us and him and he, like we are very much slaves to a routine and we give up our daytime to accommodate naps and schedule everything around naps and really protective of that but we know that come in like a year's time when he likes to naff and it's all good that we get our life back a little bit easier we always thought we'd be that go with the flow I just don't it's so unrealistic Tom was very much like it's fine the baby will just do what we do not without stress or without and you know you can get pockets of those go with the flow and you you feel like an uber cool mother i never have you know like i want to be her at the festival i want to have the baby carrier that's got fringing on and matches my outfit but the reality is i'm at home covered in like muzzies and all sorts but that's what you sign up for I think.

6:53Did you do you like was there a moment where you realized actually any of the work that you put in beforehand in terms of reading the books and getting yourself prepped that actually that had to go out of the window and you had to find your own way of doing it and get a schedule? As soon as the the last foot left my vagina I think I was like oh the reality of seeing them and then pretending to breastfeed. Pretending? Just like being like this is how that you know just holding him up to my boob and hope that something happens like you don't know you don't you don't know what it's supposed to feel like and it's that's madness like I say like you don't go into anything else without training or experience I remember us watching a YouTube video of how to change a nappy because we didn't have babies like our brothers am I right in thinking that you did this while you're in labor um on the way to the hospital I said to Joel, we should probably just, it can't be that hard, it's two stickers.

7:53But you know, just know that the flaps go out and all those things. But again, that's who I am. I'd like to know the instruction manual to everything. Whereas Joel is just like, let's wing it and see. But again, we complement each other in different ways. Well, let's start by going back to your childhood. Yeah. Where did you grow up and what was it like? I grew up in Holland. My mum's Dutch and my dad's English. Yeah, that's why I'm so tall. Yeah. And so grew up there, started school there and moved when I was five. So I was the bilingual kid. That's amazing. We'd talk Dutch to my mum, English to my dad.

8:32There's just home videos of me chopping and changing and then started school and my mum would carry on speaking Dutch and I'd say, stop talking silly, talk normally. and so in front of my friends I didn't want to be embarrassed or anything so yeah slowly lost it unfortunately but I can totally keep up and understand a Dutch person and when I go over to visit family they can speak Dutch and I can understand I just reply in English you don't have the confidence to reply it's funny because my dad's Italian but my mum is English and I always thought if it was the other way around I'd be just chatting Italian all the time.

9:13Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's now I'm like, I wish I had it. And you see it how, you know, Wilder, who's three now, he had a little European day last week and he's come back and said, bonjour, mummy. And I said, they aren't just sponges. It's kind of Del Boy French, but I'll take it. You are just sponges at that age. And I obviously wish I kept it up and did it more now. but as kids you're just so embarrassed, aren't you? You want to be normal. Did you have siblings? One younger brother, three years younger, and he sort of only knew the swear words in Dutch, you know, because he didn't have any clue what they meant.

9:53My dad was away a lot, so my mum just cracked on, and then she moved to England, barely spoke any English, and then she... Was forced to speak English because you wouldn't speak English. It's all my fault. She actually... I became very shy in school because of the sort of bilingual element. And they said, oh, could your mum come in and read with you and be a reading mum? And so it also helped her English. And then eventually they offered her a job through some courses as a teacher's assistant. She ended up being there 25 years with year one teacher's assistant and sort of helping them. And they all had slight Dutch accents.

10:33But it's kind of cute. it's so funny I'm like I don't think that's how it's pronounced but okay so it's really lovely so all my friends got taught by my mom and my brother and his friends and yeah and it helped with her English so it was really lovely I love that yeah so growing up did you ever look to the future and think I love to be a mom one day I'd love to have kids my own I think I always, I'm very much a person that's not negative, but I just prepare for the worst so that I'm not disappointed. Right. And I think I did that the same growing up that I was like, if I just stay independent, there are options to have children yourself.

11:15You don't need to be married. You don't need to be, the perfect guy doesn't exist. And that's the noise that would run in my head. I'm right thinking you've got PCOS as well. Yes, I do. Yeah. And I just thought that then shields me from disappointment. It's a coping mechanism. And in a way, it helps when you date people because there's no expectation and you can do it yourself. And we're bloody great at it too, you know. And I think that that's what always kept it open for me. And the same when I found out I had PCOS too, I thought this is going to be a struggle. So let's prepare for a struggle, which is maybe wrong for the mindset.

11:56Well, how did you find out that you had PCOS in the first place? It was from other tests and scans that they then saw ovaries on cysts on both ovaries. And then not necessarily any other symptoms, but enough to sort of be like, I need to be aware of this. And so it's just all those things that you do to protect yourself. And then sometimes when you let go, it happens, doesn't it? And so we all have our own journeys, especially on fertility and things. But I, again, with finding, with Joel even, it's like, he's not my type. How has this worked out? Like, on paper, he's not my type. But in my 20s, I didn't realise I was into funny.

12:45You know, I just went tall, dark, handsome. That's what we're told that we like. Exactly. Tall, dark and handsome. That's just like... The movie. Yeah. The movie, you had two kids and, you know, all of these things. But even birth, it's not a movie. It isn't like that. You're not necessarily screaming the house down. It can be quite beautiful and it can be and you're in control and all these things. So we're just brainwashed in that way. I just feel so grateful that I have, you know, found him along the way to make those harder times a bit more funny. When you found out about your PCOS, were you single at that point?

13:21No, I was with Joel. Oh, gosh, you found out. Late. Yeah. Yeah, probably. Well, if Wild is three now, it would have been like five years ago. Wow. Five, six years ago. So, yeah, I just didn't really have, I had sort of sporadic, you know, periods and all of those signs. But also you can put that down to so many things, stress, whatever. So I didn't really, like we do, don't really take it seriously until you come off birth control and sort of investigate your body more and go, oh, God. And also we spend so much of our lives going, must not get pregnant, must not get pregnant. Exactly. And then all of a sudden you're off the pill and you're like, come on, body, it's time.

13:58And in a way, like having two boys now, it would be lovely to have a girl in a way to sort of all that knowledge that you learn for yourself and sort of the scaremongering or the sort of routes you go down with contraception because we didn't know back then. And you almost want to pass on to daughters or at least friends' daughters or whatever. Whereas with boys, I'm kind of like, oh, you just hit each other and get on with it, don't you? There's so much less to think about that way. But, yeah, they're harder in other ways, I guess. Yeah, yes. With Joel, did you two talk about babies early on?

14:37Not particularly. Like sometimes you're in a romantic way that you'd be like, oh, imagine. but not so much because we were both so, in a way, I guess, competitive of like our careers. And like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm traveling here for modeling. And he's like, well, I'm here recording this TV show. And just in a sort of healthy way, but in a way that we're too busy to have kids. And again, if it didn't happen, that's okay too. And we actually sat down and I remember it so well that we said, look, if this doesn't happen, we're okay, right? We're happy together. We don't need to have kids. and that's such an important thing.

15:13And seeing, and I think when you date a guy, you go, is he attractive? Do we get on? Could I marry him? I think that's how far you let your brain go. Could I see myself marrying him? You never really fully think because you don't know about the idea of that person being a father or vice versa, me being a mother. How are they going to be as that? And you don't know until you're in it. And I always say to Joel, for me, be the biggest egg if I found out that he was a rubbish dad and you don't know that because everyone reacts differently and it is overwhelming and almost as women we're in control of our bodies and the giving birth and the the mother's instinct that they say so you know as the father you could maybe feel sidelined and not know where your place is and I just said to Joel sterilize stuff if you don't know what to do just sterilize if you're sitting down sterilize cook food or that's what that was his two jobs cook food and sterilize and my god did he take it seriously sounds of blading by the end of it oh my phones were sterilized his invisalign it was a lot but um it is a big thing and i it was another moment in our relationship where i was like oh thank god thank god you're a good one thank god it's him yeah that you and also to just laugh in those blurry moments in the beginning.

16:37Like there's moments where I remember just hadn't eaten for so long because I hadn't moved because I had wild with me and I'd got in a position that I was like, he's not crying, we're fine. And Joel just came along with a cut up sausage roll because you can't cut your own food. And then just a love heart in tomato ketchup. And I was like, it's those things in those moments that just mean more than any sort of push present or whatever it is that it could be. And they stick with you. They stick with you. And even now, having two, I'm just grateful. He's a kids entertainer. They're clowns. Keeping you all entertained.

17:19Yeah, exactly. I think laughter is so important. Yeah, it is. And so I just love watching him being able to have the energy that I don't have right now. You do have the energy. You just use it in different ways. Totally. Exactly. was there a moment where the two of you went right now's the time to actually start trying it was well we got caught up in so like we all did did you get caught up in the pandemic no actually I was just living my best life I think that puts such a delay on on everyone's life in different ways and um again you can have you can look at your life and go by 28 or by 30 I want to do this and I think the pandemic definitely pushed that back for us and in that time my mum actually got a brain tumour diagnosis so I very much became her caregiver during the pandemic and it was just a mad time and I just so those brief chats that we'd had just got pushed back and now more so I'm grateful that we did because I wouldn't have the capacity yeah I I wouldn't have the capacity to be able to give that much of me at that time.

18:28And also unknowing how much it takes to be pregnant, give birth, care, to do that whilst sort of having to deal with a very traumatic diagnosis. And subsequently she had a big bleed on the brain. So she was paralyzed and lost her speech as well. And she was my, again, romanticized idea of childcare. yeah you know that oh yeah my mum she'd always joke you know teach assistant she knows it all she's great with kids what she's been training for forever I got her the job yeah this is yeah and she always jokes like pay me 100 quid a month and I'll do it and I was like absolute bargain you're in and and then that all turned on its head and it was such a mad time and it took a good two years to sort of get her back physically to some degree that she's okay to be by herself and on her own and you know with my dad but has her speech come back no and and it has come back she's worked very hard in the sense that she's had speech therapy five days a week for about three years and then it's slowly sort of weaned off the speech therapy but we are at a point now where my three-year-old can speak better than mum.

19:48And that's only happened in the last, I'd say, six months. And I've been, again, conditioning myself for this moment so that it didn't hurt as much because he loves reading books. He's obsessed with books. That's his love language. And mum tries, but it's not quick enough for Wild. And he doesn't know. He's still very patient. I think it's fascinating watching young kids in that scenario because toddlers are not patient. They don't know it. But with mum, he just gives her the space and gives her the time. He knows. And so those are things that we sort of look at each other, my mum and me, and we know it's hard and we know it's different.

20:30And I wish, like it still makes me so emotional now because I wish that was how it was. But it's just different. I'm glad she's here. I'm glad she's present she can see them grow up but it every time she's around them it all almost reminds me again and I've not therapized a lot of that because then I went straight into having kids because I was like oh the timeline of being a woman and and Joel always says it's you know I need to do therapy and that's why I well you probably need to yeah but you probably You need to grieve what you thought was going to happen. Yeah. And it's always counteracted with the thing of I'm just grateful she's here.

21:15But that still doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt and you're reminded of it. It's just grief shows up in very different ways in different scenarios. And it is something that I will do one day. But there's always an excuse, isn't there? There's always, I say, you go and get your hair done every eight weeks and you make that a priority. Or you go to the dentist. but we don't necessarily make mental health that sort of priority. And even if that was every six to eight weeks, it's not that much. And even processing that two years, even that part, before we even started to try for a baby. And that's the thing.

21:52I was aware that that's stress. And then people would say to me, it's probably best not to go into such a level of therapy that involves grief when you're pregnant. and you know that you have to sort of be careful when you're pregnant to not get too sort of overwhelmed with emotion and maybe open up things and then you carry on and you have the baby and you go well I've made it through that bit I've made it through postpartum and then you sort of excited that you're almost thriving as a parent and then you go and have another one so it is sort of that on my to-do list which sounds ridiculous no I think that's being a mum I think so many of I started therapy at the start of last year.

22:31I should have had it years before that. And it's funny, isn't it? Because in LA, in America, everyone has their nutritionist, their therapist, their psychologist. And here it's like we don't sort of have that set up when it's so important and so valuable to everyone. Like I always have given to everyone else. And I'm okay, I say, being the last on the list. because it's fine it's fine but then it gets to the point where it isn't maybe yeah and you can't give anymore yeah so yeah we'll we'll move that up maybe you should was there a point where you gave yourself permission to to whilst being your mum's carer still allow yourself to look to this new chapter with you and joel did it feel like you were giving yourself permission yeah I think in a way it was I'm a problem solver like I said so with mum's stuff there was almost a point I remember my brother saying to me he was like Han you sort of need to accept that this is what mum is like and will be like now she's here but this is that it never to put like a a ceiling on on rehabilitation or to a point but especially when it's to do with speech it's a lot revolved around hope and anything rehabilitation you you you run on hope and my brother was sort of I never forget that he sort of said maybe you just need to accept that this is how she will be and you've done everything you can do to get to this point she's okay and almost that point I was like okay he's right I now maybe need to think about me and what I want for myself and for us and also the joy that both boys give to her too.

24:25And it's never to have a kid for anyone else, but it's for myself in turn for her too. So that was quite scary because I wasn't sure how I was going to navigate it. And I never want to liken it to having, you know, mum being another child, but you're giving care. So that is another person you're giving care to. Can you remember finding out you were pregnant? yes we found out we were pregnant and it was new year's eve and i'm not a new year's eve person i it's too much for me it's too much expectation on like the new goals and everything i just pretend it doesn't happen yeah i can't stay up till 12 either i don't know who i'm kidding christmas absolutely love and um again it was we were still doing covid tests at the time but we'd planned to go out that evening with Davina McCall and her husband, Michael.

25:20And they said, just come to us. We'll just have low key. Like, it'll be really fun. And so I just was in this routine of doing a COVID test and a pregnancy test at the same time. That was sort of my going out prep. Glass of rosé, COVID test, pregnancy test. And that morning, I just sort of did that to check that it was safe to come out. It's so mad, isn't it? When we talk about it, it's so crazy. And I'd done a few tests before. And so we kind of got to that point where it wasn't that much of a big deal if it was or wasn't. We were sort of quite open to whatever was going to be. And just very casually, there was the faintest line you've ever seen.

26:01And I was like, I think this could be something. And I remember just, again, the traps you get caught into on social media. It was, you know, the roundup of the year and all these videos. and Joel was making this big, it would have been 22, 23 video and I just took a video of the pregnancy test and I sent it to him because he was on the way to do radio and I said, do you want to add this to your reels for the year? And he called me and said, what? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, no. And then he was going live on the radio with Davina coincidentally. So Davina was the first person that found out.

26:40Not our parents, nobody. I've got to say of all the people she's perfect she's got a birthing book she's perfect it's so helpful literally Joel told her 3, 2, 1, live on the radio so you can imagine she's always been connected she's Aunty Didi

27:03what was your pregnancy like with Wilde? it was good I mean I'm very into all the, if you want to say hippy-dippy stuff. I was doing the acupuncture, the reflexology. I had at one point a, what's it called? The fact that I can't even say it, it says how hippy, moxibushed. I've never heard of this, tell me more. It looks like a cigar that you light at the end and you have points on your body where you wave this, essentially, cigar around your wrists and your ankles to help put you into labour and all these mad things. John was just like, I've given up. And I'm so here for it. I'm kind of sort of, I say natural, but as much as my body can do, let it do it.

27:50Leave me alone. That's why I just go, leave me alone. Let me moo like a cow. Let me get on with it if I can. Did you do a hypnobirthing or anything like that? Yeah. Oh, I love it. The breathing, all the tapes. I just, again, it's so amazing, the mindset and the power of the body. and even through breath work and and it's again this time with Dutch you sort of don't do as much as you maybe did in the first one but you trust your body more but Joel was just you know he was breathing in my ear like so heavy and I was just like just just leave me alone like again the movies it's so romantic and you're then I was just just leave me in a corner I've got this okay just get me a drink after I'm fine Tom kept trying to give me jelly babies.

28:36And I was like, no. And don't touch me. I actually don't want to be touched. Well, how did you feel going into it? Did you feel prepared for what was to come? Or did you feel yourself kind of like just going, what will be, will be? Well, naively, it's wonderful, isn't it? Because you've got no idea. And that's what I was a bit worried about this time. I was like, I know too much. I know too much. I was apprehensive a second time around. I think more so. Yeah. Because it is just crazy. The first time I had an epidural and things, and I was pretty more whacked out. That was a 36-hour birth. So I was just knackered.

29:12And then this time around, it was four hours in and out. It felt like a drive-through. But so it was almost nice because it was too quick to almost have any drugs. Did he fly out? Pretty much. My second flew out. Pretty much. So now I'm like, what would happen if he had a third? Sneeze it out. You're fine. Well, I always say about my second, it was like my body expelled him. Yeah, it can happen too quick. Like it took over. Yeah. Yeah, I just, again, it's almost like we haven't, five months down the line, we haven't even watched the birth video. Joel, I say birth video like there was a camera crew, but he basically propped up his phone in a very unflattering angle.

29:54And I'm so glad we did it. Joel wasn't going to do it, but with Wild, he did it. and we watch it every Thursday, every Christmas. Yeah, and we did the same with Dutch. And it just reminds you how bloody amazing we are and that you can do it. And that raw love in those first few minutes and it's just, it's addictive. That rush of adrenaline, the rush of endorphins, it's just, oh God, if it didn't involve everything else, I'd have 50. there's no feeling like it yeah did you feel that instant bond then this time around for sure the first time with wild again it was i felt that bond but it was nowhere like it was with dutch because again i was almost so shocked by what had just happened so shocked so tired and again probably um brainwashed slightly as to what I should feel yeah this is what it what people say or this is what I do and in actual fact I was just like oh dear god what now what happens now where do I go and then I just had to almost sit in it a bit more but yeah I think also in a in that sense that it I put too much pressure on myself for also mentally and physically getting back to myself because the first time around again you you could say you bounce back but your body has that memory to sort of go back without really doing much because you're stressed or you're just not noticing it because it's so overwhelming whereas the second time you kind of know what's involved and I was annoyingly more frustrated that physically my body wasn't going back and it was really interesting because I've come from years of modeling and having to be in a certain shape and I'm fine I've left you know I've left that at the door there and it's I'm done with modeling in that sense and conforming to a certain size but it was the first time with Dutch that I felt my brain sort of caring about physical things and obviously we're in a world where you you've got events and you may be forced out the door quicker than you sort of are in other situations but I was annoyed that this time around I had space to even think about that because it doesn't matter and I'm breastfeeding and pumping so much but you also like you say like you you existed in a world where that was everything like it was such a massive thing yeah so it's maybe it's naive to kind of go well I've left that now and this is just my body and it's doing what it does.

32:40Actually, when you reach a point where you don't feel like you and you don't look like you. And it's, again, it's like, you know, I don't think there's any mother that you could talk to that wouldn't have thought about their physical appearance at some stage in the postpartum stage and beyond. But, yeah, I do think the sort of modelling past life, that I call it, that I had, and sort of the postpartum this time round. With Wild, I didn't think about it, not at all, but as much as I do with Dutch. And it still annoys me now that I even sort of wasted energy on that. Because your body will eventually just go.

33:21And I don't want to be in the mini skirts and the sort of plastic leggings that I was back then. Life's different. Like, I'm into practical. I'm into roomy. I need to be able to get down to the ground. Give me a legging and a barrel jean any day. But it is interesting, the process from one to two. I really, I just thought, I know what I'm doing. I've done it once before. I'll be fine. And I just think I've learned so many different things the second time around. Well, sticking to the body, you had a day where you were meant to go to Ascot. Well, you did go to Ascot. And I guess this is my sort of, that was sort of the pinnacle of it, where, you know, got a lovely invitation to go to Ascot and Ascot's quite local to us.

34:06So I sort of almost pitched it. I had four hours. I just sort of got to a new breastfeeding pumping schedule and I had four hours. The four hour window, that's a nice time. And you're like, I'm free. And actually you're really not. But from three hours down to four hours, it's something. And I said, we're 20 minutes away. I could throw on a dress. Love it. Throw on a dress and throw on a hat and just go to Ascot. We can have two drinks, Joel. Just consider it a day and then we can come back and I can breastfeed. It will be fine. And he was like, oh, are you sure you, he said, are you sure you want to do this?

34:38I was like, yes. I said, I want to feel something. I want to feel something. Whether that's me or dressing up, putting on makeup, something. And a couple of times he actually said, are you sure? And I read that as he didn't want to do it because he didn't, couldn't be bothered to spend time with me or go on a date day. Oh, the hormones. It's mad. What a treat. Isn't it mad? Yeah. Oh, you don't want to hang out with me. I know I'm different. I know it's like our relationship's different, but I'm trying to like force us to have time together. We should do this. We should do this. So obviously it's no easy task.

35:18It's not like going for a lunch. He's got to get this morning suit and a top hat he doesn't want to wear. And I'm wearing a headgear thing. Anyway, I did it. I got in a dress. That was the thing. I got into a dress that I had before. and that was a nice tick in my box. And then we sort of took a picture before we left and I thought, oh God, yes, I'm out. I'm out of the house, it's great. And then I said to Joel, oh, can I see the picture that we took? Just very sort of nothing behind it. And I looked at the picture and I was like, I look awful. I look awful, I said. But I was like, I feel awful.

35:59I was like, my boobs feel like functional and just not me and I looked I was like that they're not my boobs don't get me wrong I love the size of them right now but like it doesn't feel like me I was like I've got headgear I look like mother of the I was like I feel frumpy I was like what am I doing and he was like you look great and like and honestly it doesn't matter we're just going for a couple of drinks come back then I just it just got in my head and so I said to Jo I can't do this we've got to turn around and And he was like, are you serious? In his top hat and tails. It's like I hired a suit.

36:31And I was like, I can't do this. And I was like, no, come on. Come on. You wanted to do this. You wanted to go out. You wanted to feel something. Pressure. And I was like, I've got another dress. I've got a black dress. Black's great. You can hide in black. It's fine. I'll go in the loft. After Wild, I remember wearing it. I had a wedding after Wild. I got in the loft. I was like, please make this dress fit. I mean, I'll say it fit. The boobs were under my chin and not in a sexy way. It was like she's trying too hard. I got in another dress. Great. Got in the car. Did the same thing again. I was like, now take a picture of me because I wanted to prove myself wrong.

37:09Took a picture. I was like, burst into tears. I was like, I can't do this. I don't know why I'm doing this. And I just came home and I just, floods of tears. And I said, what am I doing? and I picked up Dutch and I just breastfed him, sniffed his head and I was like, this is where I'm meant to be right now. Why am I doing, who am I proving it to? I don't need to prove it to anyone in the outside world. I don't need to prove it to our relationship and I don't need to prove it to myself right now. But it is that as wonderful that is social media and it teaches us so much too. It's just the pressure of it can be too much.

37:47And I think I wanted people to go of course wanted them to go wow congratulations you look great wonderful and actually I don't know why I needed that I don't know why I felt like I needed that validation I just needed the validation from my baby needing me and that taught me a lot but the overwhelm there's nothing prepares you for that no and I think it's again it's the from the being the sort of perfect mother thing also comes from being this perfect model thing for 15 years and I think I'm learning that now when I talk about it that it's always this need to be this certain level and I always think with mum guilt I translate it as that that it's actually the frustration of me being not being able to live up to those expectations that I put on myself yeah and and that I think is a form of mum guilt that I'm like why am I putting my bar here it doesn't need to be here yeah no one's asking me to put it here it can be here and we're all good how has your mental health been over the last few years it's been it's been you say it's been good it's the most vague I actually ban the word good on the school round because if I go kids how was your day good yeah yeah that's better me nothing I've learned um with wild it's like not how's your day I was like what's made you laugh today that's nice what's made you sad today and things like that to get more out of him and I was like it's too vague to say how are you or oh how's your mental health but I think it's very much like I say that gray cloud of what I went through with mom and all of that I would like that to be and it has over time obviously things naturally lift but I want to learn more about myself and how I can cope better and cope sounds very dramatic but it could be just coping with your day-to-day things and sort of prioritizing what's important like we're just saying I might be more important than arranging Joel's haircut, for example, and things like that.

40:04But I'm proud of myself, like I said at the beginning, that I have coat. My mental health has taken a battering across that time because you're evolving so much. And I think I'm still learning who I am and figuring that out. But generally, I'm fine.

40:28I'm fine but I am a talker I can talk and I sort of I love I will spill out to anyone almost that will listen and I think that that is a big thing to be able to share whether that's loved ones or podcasts or whatever that is it's just to I think half of the problem is realising oh other people feel this too and that makes things feel a bit lighter and for me it's a big thing when you are overwhelmed, when there's so much on your plate, so much that depends on you, when something then happens that throws everything off its course, then the overwhelm is so huge. That can be the little, and it can be a tiny thing.

41:11It's that connection, isn't it, to immediately thinking the worst thing's going to happen. I had it with mum, so her scenario where during the operation the bleed happened on her brain, that was like a one percent chance of happening but that one percent chance happened so now that almost translates into all areas of life so you know wild will have a cough or a nursery bug or whatever but to me that ends up in hospital right like because my brain has short wired that yeah because of what's happened but that's ridiculous and the more that that doesn't happen the less i They sort of radicalise these things.

41:51But that is sort of you need a toolkit, don't you? You need a toolkit as a mother to be a bit like, this is not necessarily going to happen. Yes, I've heard so-and-so talk about it. That doesn't mean it's going to happen to me. Everyone's story is different. But, yeah, I do think that's something, and gut instinct, like mother's instincts that they talk about, is annoyingly often right. so then I feel validated by my overthinking because I was right. Were you listening to that from the start though? Because I definitely ignored mine for quite some time. I was looking to other people going, do you know what this cry means?

42:29Totally. What do you think he needs? Totally. I don't know because Joan down the road said this, David in the supermarket said that. I don't know what I'm meant to be doing. You're so right. Like with Wild, people would talk about it and I'd almost pretend I had it because that's not what page 54 said of that book so that's not right but and then with Dutch completely different really I'm confident in my decision of that you know I still don't know everything like sometimes a GP does need to tell you things but I feel more at ease with it and calmer about it but it is it is annoying when your gut's right sometimes because it's like the neurotic nature of myself is correct.

43:13Yeah. But you're so right. I just, that mother's instinct. Yes, you know, but not until this time did I actually really understand it. It's fascinating, isn't it? Has it helped you relax a little bit more? Do I sound relaxed? Do I sound okay? This time round, I... You've got five months old, come on. You're not relaxing for a little while. Five months deep. I'm very relaxed. No, I do feel a lot better this time round than with Wilde for sure. And I just, I'm doing it. Well, so you are juggling two. Yeah. Like I think it's that. I mean, it's not five. I'm understanding. Like that's how my brain, I'm like, it's not five, it's not ten.

43:57I have three, right? And I look back to what we were like with one. And I am bamboozled by how difficult it felt. but I know it was difficult and I know it was the toughest time right? This is tough but that was tough. We always said when we had Wild we said what were we doing with all of our time pre-Wild? And then now we go what were we doing when we just had Wild? Where was all that free time? And you just, I always say like I'm so glad we were really selfish and we were travelled and we did all the things that I felt at ease when having Wild that I was like, I don't look back and go, I wish I could go to that party.

44:40I'm fine with not going to that party. I'm absolutely fine with not feeling hungover. I'm not, you know, like, that ship has sailed. And that just lack of desire to even get out in the same way. I think your, I don't know, your desire to go just diminishes. Someone said to me when I was pregnant with Dutch, they said oh um so double buggy and i burst into tears did you yeah why hormones the double buggy is a great invention but in my mind like well it's not he's three now he doesn't really need the buggy he's fine on a scooter but i couldn't comprehend the idea of getting out the house with a double buggy or going down a shopping aisle with a double or people helping me with a double buggy like that was too much and I I don't know naively I thought that's not me I'm gonna have two like how am I gonna get out the house and it's just mad these things that trigger you and also the realization when you very much wanted I know

45:47double buggy what why would that make you cry so we've kind of compromised with the buggy board so a buggy they are actually take away the double buggy the buggy board is is the best invention it is great it really is incredible it's a skateboard it's perfect yes it's amazing it's so funny the things that that make you feel overwhelmed yeah I I found that Tom found it really easy to just leave the house with the kids when we had two and probably it was the same with three he found it really easy just to leave the house with them on his own. Just like, go. Whereas for me, in my mind, it felt like a really overwhelming thing to prepare for.

46:32But would he remember the wipes and the spare clothes? No, he's had times where he's had to trade a wipe for a nappy. You know, all that stuff. But for him, it doesn't land on him in the same way. Whereas I'd be like, oh my God, I'm the worst parent. Because I think we think it's a reflection of us as a mother. whereas like dads are I almost envy it more relaxed perhaps where it's like oh mate you haven't got a nappy of you they're sort of less they don't think about it less precious yeah they don't worry about what that guy's going to think about them because it doesn't matter um how has the jump from naught to one compared to one to two age or children children not to one again exactly like you said I think it was I can read a book and I'll have this and this time around it's that mother's instinct which I've really enjoyed I've really enjoyed listening to and trusting and being confident in that What are you like with people's advice?

47:37Every child's different every household's different everyone's priorities are different so do sort of take it with a pinch of salt even you know parents advice that was you know 30 40 years ago it's different now even from wild having wild to having dutch the things have changed yeah the technology has changed we you know chat gbt was a thing but it's more so a thing now but even the little gadgets like well we have these like i have a little toolbox of all these little rattles and whatever that I had with Wilde. I haven't spent any money on Dutch. It's great. I keep going to Joel. It's half price.

48:16But there's some gadgets, like there's this new thing that is called a palsy and that's a mimic in the umbilical cord. And I was like, where was this two years ago? Where was this when Wilde was actually a little bit of a difficult one? But you just don't, it just shows how quick things move on and you you get more tools in your toolkit and you get more confident and even just yeah we're all chat GBTing at 4 o 'clock but chat GBT doesn't know but sometimes I like how it talks to me I wish Joel could talk to me a bit more in that tone you're so right Hannah you're completely correct in how you feel about this you absolutely totally understand that's how I want Joel to speak to me take note Joel she's just always right And that's it.

49:06If you can just start with, I totally understand where you're coming from. Yeah. But X, Y, Z. Yeah. On the whole, it is essentially buy one, get one free on all the kids' clothes and all the gadgets and stuff. But I would say that I echo you in terms of tech, the way that that stuff has all sort of changed throughout the years. I very naively said about a lot of things, I don't need that. I did it this way before, I'll do it again. And then slowly that thing enters your life and you're like, why didn't I have it before? It's fascinating, isn't it? And there again, you battle with that mother's instinct, I should know.

49:46Technology can't help me because I should know. We can take the pressure off. We can let other gadgets, things help us. It's mad, you know, baby monitors. It can get too far. I think it can, you know, for me personally, I don't lean into the whole is my baby breathing element of the monitors because for me personally it would give me too much anxiety and I think it's hard to make those calls right from the beginning because you don't know you don't know and I remember reading about it and thinking that is genius to know that my baby's breathing who wouldn't want to know that yeah but actually just steering away from that and trusting again you will your baby will cry or but you will you you will hear it'll be okay.

50:29It's a fine balance. Yeah. You can't trust one too much, can you? Yeah. So it's always having sort of various tools on hand and then you leave them with people for the first time and that's when it all, you're like, please just take them but use this at this time and this at that time and this amount of milk at this time. It's just never leaving the house. Do you feel like you are proper drill sergeant, kind of this is the routine? I try and like say it with a smile so that I don't act like feel like people think I'm as neurotic but it's there is essentially nothing you can do once you sort of have to go to work or whatever that what can I do other than advise via text like maybe try this or try that I'm physically not there you know take this that smells of me or whatever it is but that is the hard part of leaving the house is you want them to feel as much that you're there.

51:26And that's almost impossible. How did flying to Australia affect Wild? Me, you mean? Well, so when Buzz was 10 months old, we took him to Australia. And before that, he was self-settling. It was amazing. I fucked it up massively by going to Australia with him. Came back, would not self-settle. It took me about two years to be able to leave the room without holding his hand or lying down next to him. Yeah, it was quite the shocker. That is some jet lag. And again, I think it is so mad because I'm the planner, the routine, like all of that. And Joel just gets a job in that says you're going to Australia with your newborn baby.

52:11Okay. And I feel like that's always been our relationship. Like everything's quite last minute and changeable. And so I've always known that that's involved. And I love it. Like I would be bored otherwise. so I wouldn't want to change that at all and the scenarios that come up in his world with work is really good for me because it forces me out of that comfort zone because I would never do we hadn't been on holiday we were like holidays are not worth it we did one night staycation in the UK with Wild and I won't say the hotel because I ripped down a blind off the wall in frustration it wasn't dark enough so I wanted to make it black out and I was like this bloody blind will not go down and I yanked it and I yanked it and the whole blind just came off the wall and then we were like okay he's asleep it's fine we were like we'll order red wine and steak oh my god room service this is amazing this is amazing you know all in one room I don't know what I was thinking and then all of a sudden and I was like the room service woke up and that was it wild awake all night we had the cold chewy steak and red wine in pitch black with a phone torch And I was like, holidays are not worth it.

53:25And then the call comes in to go to Australia. And I was like, man, talk about throwing us into the deep end. Did any part of you go, we're not going? You go, we won't? Yeah. I always voice the extreme other end of things, just so I've said it. Because then when we're out there, I can always go, I told you so. But yeah, Joel knows that I'm the sort of cautious one. and he is wonderfully optimistic about everything in life and I love that about him. But it was a lot. See, when Tom said that they were going, well, Tom said, so it was when McBusted was supporting One Direction on tour and we'd spent time in Australia all together before.

54:08Yeah. But there was absolutely no way that I wasn't going to go. In my mind, I was like, Oh, yeah. I'm the only one with a baby. I'm going. You can't leave me here for three and a half weeks while you gallivant around Australia. That's not happening. It's exactly the same thing. Like we sort of have these rules with Joel's on tour. It's like two and a half hours and further away, stay away, but otherwise try and get back. And the same, I guess, with physically, we haven't had that situation where it's been a long stint other than the jungle two or three times now. But like three weeks is too long.

54:40It's too long for Joel. Yeah. Like even if I selfishly thought that I would be fine at home, solo parenting which I know I would find really really hard Joel would find it really difficult and so it is almost his mental health as well as my own it's just easier to be together and fly across the world and suck up the jet lag and all of that madness but to be together is is more beneficial than being apart in that way yeah but we've had wonderful memories and it's great I'm so glad we did it it's so good it's so wonderful it's just too far yeah I say if you don't like your family it's the perfect place to live because I'm like you just on different time zones you can't keep up you know you can't reply to emails it's wonderful the lifestyle's great the food's great it's just too far yeah what was Wilde like when he first met Dutch well saying that nothing's like the movies that was like the movies and this the sweetest sweetest moment and anything everything I could have hoped for and he's he was so sweet and then two weeks later it just got a little bit more aggressive or we had to wind it wind it in but that particular moment is will stick with me forever it was so wonderful does it just make Dutch laugh now yeah that's the thing I've now lived with two comedians it's like watch me look at me look at me and that's just joel and i've got wild mom watch watch and i think that's what we said like me and joel are quite competitive with who gets the first like who gets you know we just had dada last week and i'm like no that's just what babies do it's not about you and then we were very competitive over the first laugh and obviously joel that's his job like so he was trying so hard and um and then obviously it's wild that does it and i said that's perfect but to see that glint in Wild's eye of, ooh, I made someone laugh.

56:41We were like, and there we have the next generation of comedian. Like we just saw it, it's another Joel. We're all screwed. Aww. It's so adorable. It is the best. It is the best gift I could have given. Best toy. Yeah. Do you feel like you're leaning into the chaos now? Yeah. Rather than fighting against it? You just, you cannot tidy up. no you cannot what is the point we've entered our charity shop era nice and we it is a game we have to pick five things whether it be books or toys and you put them in the bag and he carries them down to the charity shop and then he can pick one toy no and that's that's how it works and I'm like I really enjoy it because obviously it's the act of giving to others I'm gonna give this to other boys and girls and I was like they'll love that and I just think that teaches him so much and I just and they walk into a charity shop they're like wow and I'm like yes it's two pounds this is wonderful and also you're just clearing exactly all you're doing is is getting rid of the no idea great parenting hack if you could write a letter on being a mum who would it be to and what would you say I would write it to Joel Would you?

58:01I'd write it to Joel and I would say if this was pre-kids do you mean? Anytime I think if it was before kids I'd write it to him going like I'll be back you know I don't, I'll cry

58:21You change but I know I'm still fun just not right now but we still have our fun but I think we both were like shocked at how much it changes everything and your relationship goes through a different stage and we both know we love each other even if you're passing ships and you're tag teaming and you're nagging at each other but like the fact that like I joke I said oh boys boys will leave leave at 18 and they'll go off and they won't need us and we can go on our cruise like that's what we joke about but just knowing that we've got each other through this and we're here for each other right now it's just a lot but to sort of say in my letter that I'll be back to say in my letter thank you and also maybe leave a little to-do list at the end because that is our love language whilst you're there do you know it's so hard though I think relationships are so tough when when being that parents is involved because your your focus your energy your time your your sense of humor like sometimes that all just diminishes Yeah, and we say like, the more things that happen in your life, I used to be the fun one or I used to be this, it's just you have more responsibilities and one of you has to step up.

59:54You can't both be the fun one all the time or one of you has to do the admin or it comes at different times, but I know we'll have fun again. Sometimes I hate the version of me that I am. Wow, hate is a strong word. I do, I do. I feel like I get lost in the chores of it all, of trying to keep everyone rigid, of being the one to say about homework, of being the one to lay out the uniform, of being the regimented one that's not the fun one. But if I am leaning into the fun, the back of my brain is going, you've got all this stuff to do, who's doing it? Yeah, yeah. And it's like, is it worth the glass of wine and the hangover in the morning?

1:00:37Because who's going to pick up that? But it's almost this, I feel like I'm addicted to the overproductivity or productivity that's running in my head. Because you can't drop that ball, but it's also addictive to get stuff done. But that's not, I say that's not normal, but it is normal when you're a parent. It's like this thrill of a to-do list, but you have to sometimes share that. And that's why I'm quite sort of passive aggressive to Joel about some things where I was like, I will not do the bins just to prove that if they don't, if you don't do them, no one's doing it because that's what I'm doing with other things.

1:01:19so there are just categorically things that he just has to do and I won't you know, I say like tidy up after him like he's a teenage boy but it's not that it's just we have separate wash bins, you do your wash those are things that like make your day to day in relationships slightly easier I won't put Tom's clothes away they'll be in a pile in his room, I'm not putting them away there is about three Joel Domics next to his next to his cupboards it's just like three Joel's I can see, like, that's what he wore on Tuesday. That's what he wore on Wednesday. I'm like, okay, well, if that's you, when you trip over them, that's when you'll know.

1:01:56Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't do it all. No, you can't. You can't. And that's fine. That is fine. But, yeah, I think the passive aggressiveness is something I can relate to. I think that resentment that builds up. But I go away on tour, right? And whenever I'm not there, if I go on treks or whatever, I realise in those moments that it all gets done it just gets done in a different way and I have to be okay with allowing Tom to do things in his way and accept that exactly and it's just different and Joel said to me the other day when I went out I got back and he said oh you'll be really annoyed but Dutch slept really well and I said why would I be annoyed at that because you've had an easy day.

1:02:47And I was like, that would make me an awful person if I wished bad sleep upon our children so you've got a tough day to feel what I mostly can feel. That's not what I want. This isn't, you know, as much as they say we're competitive in fun areas of life, like it's not competitive with parenting. I want you to have an easy day as you should want me to have an easy day but it isn't that straightforward when it comes down to parenting. Every day is different. So I was like, oh, absolutely. High five, you've had an easy day. Slightly jealous, don't get me wrong. And obviously he worked through his to-do list at that point.

1:03:22You should have seen the house. It was actually upside down at that point. He's like, I haven't had time to clear up. I was like, you think? Well, that is a different thing though, right? So I always feel like if I'm out, if Tom's out for the day, he'll come back. The kids are all sorted. The house is sorted. if I go out for the day I'll come back they'll have had a lovely time everyone would have played everyone's really really happy the other stuff no no it's a shit show yeah but he's leaned into the parenting side isn't that amazing yeah I'll take it but why when we're there can we not just do that well for me I'm saying we but I can't just do that I know because all I see is the other things but what do I want what do I want out of it yes a clean house and the washing to be X, Y, Z.

1:04:09But do I want Joel, when we're lying in bed at night, to go, well done, thanks for doing the wash. Like, what... And even if he did every night, it would eventually wear thin. You could tell someone you look beautiful every day, you stop hearing it, you know? Great wash load, Hannah. Like, what? That wouldn't change anything. But it's almost like I'm seeking the praise. But who from? Or does it bring us some sort of peace? I think so. Of course it does. of course it does to have like any surroundings they say it about your desk your bedroom, it has to be calm to feel that but whether that's reflective of having children I don't know, I would almost say a messy house is a happy house put that on a t-shirt just remind yourself of that as I open the door to neighbours and this is why you're not coming in Hannah we end the podcast with you completing three sentences The first one is being a mum means?

1:05:11Means everything. As in doing everything, being everything, my love, everything. It is just everything. It's like I wouldn't change it for the world. It is the best job, the best role, the best thing that I wish. I'm glad I didn't do it sooner. Yeah. But I'm really, I love it. Since having children, I? and very productive. I would say before I would be used to choke that on Wednesday I had Pilates and that was it. That was it. It would take me half an hour to get there. I'd do the class and then I'd have to wash my hair, obviously. And I'd get back and I'd make a salad. That was Wednesday. That's ridiculous when I say that now.

1:06:00I miss her. I love that for her. but how funny now tomorrow's wednesday so what does tomorrow look like for you hannah pilates at 5 30 a.m before everyone's got up on my bedroom floor whilst i kick joel's clothes away namaste

1:06:19and finally i'm happy when i'm happy when it's just us four at home doing nothing laughing like the little laughs them you know wild being ridiculous and trying to make us laugh Joel trying to make us laugh that's just no stuff almost no plans no people nothing no one to host nothing like that just us and some sunshine oh yeah just have that in just in the UK because I don't travel remember everywhere else dark and gloomy yeah okay Thank you so much. I've loved chatting. We have been chasing you to come on this for a long, old time. My childcare fell through.

1:07:11But I'm really glad. Thank you for having me. Honestly, it's like the first, I said to you, uninterrupted chat I've had in a really long time. And it's a form of therapy, listening to podcasts, talking on podcasts. I think it's just, like I said, so nice to know that other people feel the same. Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for having me. Pleasure. Thank you.