Chessie King on the shocking reality of IVF costs

0:00Giovanna Fletcher: Youth mental health is a complex challenge that requires comprehensive solutions.

0:05Chessie King: We must strengthen after-school programs. We must make digital literacy tools available in our schools. We must work with mental health professionals to support children. And we must empower mentors, educators, and parents to keep kids happy. Learn more about our commitment to finding lasting solutions at empowerourfuturecoalition.com

0:25Giovanna Fletcher: slash solutions. Paid for by the Coalition to Empower Our Future.

0:37Chessie King: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's guest is Chessie King, who I absolutely adore. I actually, for all this claim, I started doing her workouts many, many, many years ago and just fell in love with her joy, her bubbly attitude and her overall view of what fitness is. for all types of bodies. She's a presenter of women's sport. She's an author and founder of Welcome to Babyhood. She does so much to empower women to really claim who they are, what their bodies do for them, and to take us away from the patriarchy. It tells us that we should look a certain way and should feel absolutely rubbish if we don't look that way.

1:23Chessie King: She had her daughter Aurelia in 2021. She's been with her husband Matthew for a long old time. And recently she has been talking a lot about trying to conceive the second time around. She had a loss last March, which she talks about a little bit in this chat. And then after a few months of trying, she basically went down the route of IVF following a stroke that she'd had years and years ago and the ramifications of that. We also talk about the fact that her husband Matthew had postnatal depression, which I don't think he talks about enough. I say this to her, but Matthew, you are welcome on whenever you like.

2:01Chessie King: So here we go. It's Have Mum, Have Baby with Jessie King.

2:08Chessie King: Whenever the NHS Squeezy app comes up, I'm like, shut up, not now. I'm not ready. But that's a really good app because it basically, there's just another app, but it's basically, it tells you sort of three times a day, time to do a squeezy. And it kind of guides you through like two minutes worth of, it might be three minutes. Wow. Like long pulls and releases and then a shorter, like quick burst.

2:34Giovanna Fletcher: Burst, yeah. Isn't it funny, though, that like you could be doing it on the tube and no one would notice? I love that. I'm like this.

2:42Chessie King: I was doing it and I'm really concentrating. And I would imagine that everyone listening to this is also doing the public floor right now. Because if not, you've wasted some time. But then I was in a reformer Pilates class of a day and she was saying to me about the two points here above my, like, around your hip area. Your hips, yeah. In the inner. Together. Yeah. How am I 41 and never known about that? Because all of a sudden I'm like, oh my gosh, that just literally pulls everything in together.

3:11Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like a corset feeling. Especially with, yeah, a baby. And then you don't have to think of all the three holes. Yeah. Yeah, so far. There we go. we're just sat here squeezing yeah and if you can listen then pull it in how are you feeling i am feeling today feeling very sweaty actually gee um no i feel fantastic i feel so incredibly different to how i did with aurelia um i think i'm just like rewriting pregnancy in my head it was covid matt couldn't come to any of my scans with me he had to leave after an hour and a half of Ray being born. And I was in hospital, in and out of hospital from like week nine, being sick 25 times a day.

3:58Giovanna Fletcher: No. Yeah, I was bad. I was bad for like up to 40 weeks. And it's funny because every time someone asked me how my pregnancy was with Ray, I was like, yeah, it was great. I was fine. And now looking back, I'm like, how?

4:10Chessie King: How did I do that? But do you also think that's part of your personality? You're so upbeat and you just radiate joy. like spending any time with you you just come away going well that she's a bit of sunshine do what i mean and then maybe you do look at the positives in a lot of situations even if you are

4:27Giovanna Fletcher: feeling shit and crappy i always have done yes i have done and i kept on thinking like it was that whole monologue of but i'm just so lucky and i've now realized as i've got older and as i've been through different experiences that they can they can exist together you can feel lucky and grateful and whatever but you can also feel pretty shit and like I think I've realized as well seeing my best friends go through it seeing other people go through it that every single stage of pregnancy whether it's the trying whether it's the actual pregnancy itself or the postpartum every single stage has a different like narrative like for everyone you could get pregnant like that and be like I'm so lucky I got pregnant first time but then you find your pregnancy extremely tough and And then you go into postpartum with this severe anxiety because of your pregnancy.

5:18Giovanna Fletcher: And it can happen in any stage. Like I know friends that love their pregnancy. I'm like, I'm really sorry, Chess, you were sick all the time. I'm like, it's fine. But then the aftermath, they had postnatal depression and they couldn't recover properly with their pelvic floor. So there are so many different ways. And I think because this time around, it was the first part, the trying. and going through a very early miscarriage last March and trying for a year and a half and getting to that stage of going, oh, I think we need to take control of the situation now because I don't know what's going on.

5:54Giovanna Fletcher: I think that's made this part so special. You are literally glowing. I mean, you're always glowing.

6:01Chessie King: Not the sweating. Don't do that. You are glowing in every sense.

6:06Giovanna Fletcher: Thank you so much. That's very kind. I'll take that.

6:09Chessie King: So I'm glad you feel like it this time around.

6:11Giovanna Fletcher: I do. And, God, there are times where I feel super funky, but I'm like, oh, I'm all right. I'm good compared to, I mean, now I've experienced hyperemesis gravidarum, which is like a spell, isn't it? On like, you will be sick a million times a day. I can never say it. I can never. No, I can't now. Hyperemesis gravidarum. I cut it down to hyperemesis. Yeah, yeah, HG. Because it does sound like a Harry Potter spell. It does. And do you know what? I did. It wasn't magic in any way. I felt, yeah, so different. And then this time around, even though I have been sick, there's been the classic morning sickness that lasts throughout the whole day.

6:47Giovanna Fletcher: So it shouldn't be called morning sickness. But I'm like, I can do this. So you're still feeling sick this time? There are moments, obviously, you're not going to feel incredible. But just kind of a little bit. Just like I can shake it off. Yeah. And like I've been sick and I'm like, well, it's just once. Absolutely. Give me another 24 times. I'm proud. But that's something that also it taught me that pregnancy taught me so much like resilience and just patience with myself, trusting that like my that the baby was getting enough nutrients, even though I couldn't even keep in sips of water. And that was fascinating to me.

7:23Giovanna Fletcher: It was like, wow, how how is this even happening? Like, how does she come out really healthy? Yeah, it was amazing. But I didn't even eat a green vegetable. What? For nine months? And she's all right. Are you sure? So yes, it's a very different experience. So I feel so wonderful. I love this.

7:44Chessie King: I love this for you. We're going to go right back to start with. We're going to go to your childhood. What was your childhood like? Where did you grow up? What was the family set up?

7:54Giovanna Fletcher: I feel very lucky when I speak about my childhood. I was one of three, the eldest, and we grew up in the countryside. Like a trip to London was huge, very special. Didn't know, like it was just all very overwhelming and just, whoa, like we don't have this in countryside. I just need trees. And it was very, very special. I was a yes child. I did everything my mum and dad said. Do you want to try this? Do you want to try that? I would literally, I played so many instruments terribly. but my mum would be like try the flute try drums try this so I'd like play the drums and then the next day I'd be on the flute and then I'd go I'm done with that then I'd like try dancing swimming but I was never good at just one thing I just enjoyed everything and I was very uncompetitive really oh my god I was so so funny G so I was in this one swimming race and I looked at everyone on like the diving boards I think I was probably like eight nine and I looked at them I was like good luck good luck and they look to me like is that a tactic to throw us off or are you just and then I'd like jump in and be like oh god I'm in this race and I'd swim and then after like I wouldn't even look at what score I'd come or what place sorry um and that has kind of stayed with me and I think that's maybe my parents never putting too much pressure on just one thing and always going here like here's an array of things what would you like to do and I love that and I Try and do that with Aurelia and never just push her down one path.

9:25Giovanna Fletcher: And then when Bronte and Henry came along, I was five when Bronte came, seven when Henry came. And I took on this motherhood role because, oh, my God, all I ever wanted genuinely and without sounding cliche was to be a mom. Like everyone would say, what do you want to be when you're grown up? And everyone would be like an astronaut or a lawyer or a doctor or a vet. And I would genuinely just be like, I just want to be a mum. And that was genuinely, like in my head, I was like, that's the coolest thing to be.

9:56Chessie King: Yeah.

9:57Giovanna Fletcher: Because I saw my mum be the most amazing mum. I love that.

10:00Chessie King: The fact that it came from seeing your mum do it. That's so gorgeous. Yeah. I love that. At what point did you get into fitness? Because I first came across you on an app and I instantly fell in love with doing your classes because doing your classes felt very different to anything else I'd ever seen in fitness ever. But I mean, there was just so much personality and so much just fun. Thank you.

10:24Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah, fitness has never been like a serious thing for me. Actually, no, that's a complete lie. I did go through a phase. I did go through a too far. I did a bikini competition because I thought it'd be a great, going back to experimenting, I love just like, I'm so curious about like where I can go with my body, what I can do. And I don't like being safe. And this definitely took me out of my safety comfort zone. So it was a bikini competition that I should probably never have done, but I've learned from it. And that was the only serious part. But with fitness, I always saw my parents being active.

10:57Giovanna Fletcher: And I don't know if anyone listening to this has gone the other way and rebelled against that kind of foundation of exercise, because I certainly did. I saw movement as like, oh, I dance. And I didn't know that that was exercise, didn't know that that was me working out or getting my heart rate up. but then I saw my parents like doing triathlons and doing marathons and I'd be like wow that's so cool but I never want to do that like literally I'd watch and go whoa but that's not where I want to go and then when yeah when fitness was kind of when Instagram first started and it was just the squares I basically as a my my brain went into like okay what can I do here that doesn't show me on Instagram but kind of highlights the people I follow I contacted Alice Living and all the ogs and i said hi i'm a presenter i was doing a lot for like okay magazine back then on their red carpet it was very gossipy but i was like i want to do real stuff with real people and i was like i'm i i can come with you follow you around for a day and they were like all right great um and then i can kind of give more um i i can show more of you than just your photo of your food especially with i'll use atlas because she's one of my best friends and she doesn't mind but it was just a photo of the food she was cleaning tell us so then um I would spend a day with her I'd see that she did all these cool fitness classes and I was like oh so I kind of really engulfed myself into it without really knowing it was just like whoa I'm doing this class and this class and uh Instagram just became a way of like showcasing other talent kind of for me um and then yeah it was it's it's really wild isn't it like looking back and thinking I just going back to the yes I just said yes to it all it's like oh okay I'll do a class like flying through the sky like we would try all these different trends yeah that don't know if they've stuck really um but ways of moving moving that wasn't just like lifting weights so go yeah going back to that fun element of moving my body um and then it's kind of just stayed that way I love that yeah has your relationship with your body changed over the years oh yeah I spent so much of my life wishing I was smaller wishing that I looked like the girls in my year because I was always tall G I was like I mean I'm just scraping six foot now but I remember passing my nana at like the age of 10 and being like whoa I'm I'm really shooting up over you and then all my friends I'd they'd come up to like booby height and they'd go oh it looks like I'm out with my mom when we were in town together so I just need to like can we yeah it's not cool Can we like spend a bit of social distancing?

13:42Giovanna Fletcher: And so I've always been tall and I just wish that I was smaller and I did everything I possibly could. And then it got to about 23. I had a mini stroke from working out too hard, which left me with a heart condition, which then domino affected everything up until my cesarean. And the reason I had to have a cesarean was because of that. And it was just overtraining, under eating. and that was the moment that went whoa whoa whoa my body was like hold up and I then with pregnancy the bigger I got the more I loved my body and that was revolutionary I was like but even before that

14:21Chessie King: pregnancy you were doing photos online that were showing an actual body before I felt anyone else was doing that like what is an actual what what does and I hate the whole real body thing you know I think everybody is a real body we're not seeing works of fiction unless someone's gone through different tuning on different apps yeah but the fact that you were you were someone who was showing roles showing so like what are you showing your body in all its glory rather than an image that complied I guess with what the beauty standard was I guess that's the best way of describing it

14:53Giovanna Fletcher: yeah thank you because I feel like when you go back to that like 2016 it's like well what what actually made me do it and it was a girls group chat we were all if Sunday after we'd had a big roast I got my flies undone I had my tummy out and I was like girls that was the best roast of my life and I was like if I'm sending it to the girls group surely I should be showing that on Instagram because I always thought of myself as that big sister role from being a big sister and I always thought of Bronte's friends of like what do they need to see to kind of get them through the stage that I was at when I wanted to be smaller so it was always that like what can I do for the younger generation and I kind of still well that that's always playing in my mind but I've kind of morphed into a motherly figure that is also a big sister so I try and just always think what do they need to see a few years ahead to go oh well if she's been through that so can I I can I can yeah make make best friends with my body yeah and that yeah going back to pregnancy of just getting bigger and bigger.

15:59Giovanna Fletcher: And I was like, I never thought I'd enjoy getting bigger. But my goodness, it's the most exhilarating, extraordinary thing.

16:08Chessie King: And it's so fascinating, isn't it? To go against the idea that we all need to be smaller because we're growing life and just suddenly going, wow.

16:15Giovanna Fletcher: And like wearing like tight stuff that I would never have worn because I thought, oh, I've got a tummy. But then you actually do have a tummy. I just want to show this off. Like how cool that I... And I think second time around, I have that even earlier on because you start showing earlier on. And it reminded me, I was like, wow, like all that work that I've done and not one little voice in my head is going, oh, you should probably put that tummy away because it looks big. I'm like, I'm just the opposite. And it's like as soon as it starts showing, I was like, hello, here it is. but it is it is incredible having uh I know you've got three boys but having younger the younger generation not just girls but for me having Aurelia I am so grateful that I am so happy that I healed my relationship with food with my body before I had her because she'll never grow up with a mum that is counting her calories she'll never grow up with a mum that is looking at the mirror going oh my tummy's big she'll she literally sits in a bath with me every night and she goes whoa mummy look at my tummy it's like yours and I'm like I love that she'll never think oh yeah my relationship of my body.

17:27Chessie King: So that's something to hide yes something to be ashamed of yeah this is me yeah when you met Matt at what point did you know that he also wanted to have a family was that a very quick thing?

17:40Giovanna Fletcher: No so interestingly he always knew and my dad would always tell me do not tell your future husband that you want an army of children You don't want a football of children. Just start with one, ease them in. So Matt knew that I always did from the offset. I was never quiet about that. I don't do anything quietly. But I just was always very honest. And he kept on saying, yeah, in 10 years. In 10 years. In 10 years. How old were you when you met? 23. Oh, OK. All right. Yeah, so 10 years. And we've obviously bypassed his 10 years. And we rewrote that. But he would always say yes, but not now. Yeah.

18:21Giovanna Fletcher: So interestingly in COVID and going like really thinking about him in that very moment when I did get pregnant and I told him, I now understand wholeheartedly his emotions because he's been very open. At that point, were you trying? So I was trying for years. And I know this sounds really silly, but he knows this. So my cycles were like 180 days, and then I wouldn't have another one for, like, I just didn't know when I was on my period, when I was ovulating. I had obviously, couldn't have a ring. I just had my little app, and I would, like, put it all in, the data, and it'd be like, we have no idea when you're going to ovulate.

19:01Giovanna Fletcher: So we conceived aurelia on day 46. And back then, I had no idea. I didn't go for any tests. I didn't go for scans. I just thought, oh, it's from coming off the pill, being on the pill for too long. and also I thought maybe it's like my heart or I didn't really know I just thought well it's not

19:17Chessie King: happening so I'll just keep going so even then every month not knowing if you're late not knowing what is going on must be a real big head fucks kind of when do you take a test at what point

19:28Giovanna Fletcher: I was taking tests every month I was thinking I was taking tests every month and I'd always show you Matt the negative and he was like okay well carry on because he didn't think that I wanted that positive straight away he was almost like well it's not it's not on the cards right now because you can't he always just had this thing like you you can't until you get this sorted and your periods are so um back then yeah there was a very it was kind of undiscussed it was like i he knew chesley wants children but i'm not ready so it's not going to happen right now and he's been very open he had a postnatal depression but as a father which is not spoken about as much he's obviously created that conversation in his own which is incredible which is phenomenal and I understand now that it goes back to that very moment that I told him really yeah and his reaction bless him I didn't film it I just um had it on like a voice memo because I wanted to always remember it.

20:28And he just was like, oh, shit.

20:32Giovanna Fletcher: I mean, it didn't help to either. I was dressed up as a mummy. So it was Halloween. It was Halloween, 31st of October. How long had you known at this point? Two seconds. So I'd gone into the bathroom. It was 5 a.m. I just knew. I was like, I woke up and I was like, I'm pregnant. I have to take a test. And I wrapped myself, didn't even plan this, obviously, wrapped myself in toilet roll all the way around my neck, all the way around my thing. And I thought, this is the only way to tell him. I'm a mummy. So I walked in, I waddled in, and then I like, I'm there. And then Matt went, you're right? And I was like, what am I?

21:06Giovanna Fletcher: And he just went, what are you? And I said, yeah. And he went, uh, a mummy? And I went, yeah. And then I held the test up and he was like, what? And it was hilarious because I was then obviously covered in like toilet roll, like trying to hug him. It was the weirdest situation because it was also COVID so I couldn't really like go and see anyone else.

21:28Chessie King: I just love the fact that that's where your brain went. You know what I mean? I know how I'm going to break it to him. I know how I'm going to share this news of this new chapter in our life wrapped up in toilet roll. Of course. At what point did you go, maybe the toilet roll wasn't the best I heard of? When you started going,

21:46Giovanna Fletcher: shit. Oh, that's, yeah. And then I was lying in bed just like, I should probably take this all off. Do you need it? for the tears. So yes, it was a bit of a different reaction, very different reaction to how it was this time round.

22:02Chessie King: Well, because I guess in that moment, you would have felt all the nerves that come with that positive test and all that excitement. And then I imagine it would have felt very different when you then shared it with Matt and had a very different reaction from him.

22:15Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah, this time round, it was like he supports Arsenal and it was like Arsenal had won the Champions League or whatever they win.

22:21Chessie King: Is this second time? Second time.

22:22Giovanna Fletcher: Oh my goodness, G, he screamed like top off over his head like he'd scored a goal. He was so different. And I think that because Aurelia is like four and a half, she'll be five. I think he's just he's become a like different man. He has rebranded himself and he's done so much work. You hear like, oh, I've done work on myself and whatever. Like I've seen it. he has like it's like an evolution I actually wrote in his um Valentine's Day card and it got me really emotional I was like to witness the man you've become is just an honor because I I think you hear so much of oh he wasn't a good dad he didn't try he left whatever and we did get to that stage of we're going to divorce we're going to end it because it it was so difficult in the first year and a half two years of Ray's life but to see the man that I stayed with and actually chose to stay with yeah and we chose each other like in the stage he's at now I'm like oh my god you're amazing and all my friends and family who knew you know that awkward thing when you go when you're at school and you have your first crush or whatever and you're like I think I'm gonna break up with him and then you stay with him and all your friends are like but I hated him in that moment that you told me or I thought you were gonna break up since I prepared myself I felt I was very open with my friends and family and they could see.

23:47Giovanna Fletcher: I was like, that's it. We're done. We're actually done completely. And the fact that then we stayed, we worked on it, now they see why. I think at the beginning they were like, hold on, you've just gone from we're separating to we're going to try and get back together. I think it's been a big, long journey for them as well to see why. And now they understand.

24:12Chessie King: how did his personality you said that that that actual just hearing the the fact that you had a positive test sort of that was maybe the the start of it how did that manifest during the pregnancy and after and was there a part of you that because i think there must be that thing of when you are someone who really wants to get pregnant your partner's not in not that into it and then it happens and they're not as excited as you are it must feel like come and get this side of the pavement where I'm happy yeah it might they must have driven a wedge between you from that

24:44Giovanna Fletcher: really yeah 100 % and now I think I was quite naive to it because I was like oh he'll he'll get it once they're here um and we didn't have any of the he wasn't too into feeling her kick he wasn't too and because he wasn't involved he wasn't allowed at the scans yeah he wasn't he didn't have that and obviously when I was being sick I was in hospital without him able to come and like visit it so we actually spent quite a lot of the pregnancy apart and he just developed this narrative that he was helpless because he couldn't help my sickness he couldn't and I think that that then like bled into the first year two years of I'm not breastfeeding so I'm helpless and I always say and to anyone listening that maybe is a father figure like you are never ever helpless to the mum you are she's she's the one who needs the help to then help the baby yes you might not be able to breastfeed but that mom needs feeding watering caring for and like I just don't feel like I was ever cared for as a mom when I was caring for Ray yeah and I think he he obviously realized that but it was that whole I'm helpless I can't do anything she's being sick I can't help her so that started early on and that obviously just like like kind of yeah vested no like bigger and bigger and bigger into his head of I can't can't help her yeah and this time around my god he's been a totally different like I can help you do you need water do you need salt and

26:17Chessie King: vinegar crisp also the understanding of postnatal depression in men that's such a massive thing and knowing why you would have felt a certain way and how actually there's nothing that he could have done then and actually the work that he's done now and being able to enjoy what's going on rather than feeling that loss of control that sort of dread of the change whatever that is and then kind of I would imagine it's a very confusing place to be when this thing even if it's happening earlier than you planned suddenly makes you feel like you're in a really negative space and the person that he loves more than anything is suddenly sort of going on a different path to him

26:53Giovanna Fletcher: yeah it kind of goes like that doesn't it and I do think that as I I realized that I could have blamed him and I could have been like well it's easy for you see like you you can go off and walk out the door without having to worry whether you've got full boobies or which side you've fed on or if you've got the pram you just go off and you do your thing and I think that as soon as that changed and shifted in my head of going like in sickness and in health maybe he's not sick right now but he's mentally unwell I need to take I need to take care of him and this man needs me genuinely it was like a whoa whoa whoa let's stop the blame and it's yes it's horrendous and it feels like it's all on me but let's just think like what does he need he doesn't need me to leave him he needs me to stay and go right I'm listening what how can I help you had this massive you actually

27:50Chessie King: had a turn for it but it was this massive conversation that you had and a mash you called it so like a massive emotional extravaganza extravaganza of a conversation yeah um up until you had that chat did you have any idea of where his head was or was he just like that being

28:09Giovanna Fletcher: difficult and disengaged it was more that in my head that that it was he he was just finding it so hard he wasn't enjoying it yeah and as soon as he said I've been to therapy and my therapist has asked me to ask you what's it like living with me that was the conversation opener and I think we survived the first year and a half where with just avoidance we didn't have the big conversations We tapped in, tapped out. We did things very separately. And actually, when he said that, I was like, whoa, he's been like...

28:43Chessie King: That's a big thing, to go to therapy and not tell your wife that that's what you're doing.

28:48Giovanna Fletcher: I know. And to then ask that. And I just realised, I was like, wow, okay, this man's really prepared to speak about this. And he said, I've read an article that kind of sums up how I feel. and I think I've got postpartum depression. And he said he'd seen it and it said, I wake up with this heaviness in my heart and this like, like I can't breathe. And this, as soon as I open my eyes, it's like this really deep anxiety. And I just like this unsettling feeling like bubbling up that I can't do anything today because I've got a baby. I've got a wife that's recovering and all these things. And he was like, it just all came together.

29:31Giovanna Fletcher: and it was like this is what I have what was it like to receive that very emotional and still now he speaks about it so much and he he's like wow like that that was such a powerful label and he always talks about labels of like anyone getting a diagnosis it can either help you see what you've got or it can actually feel like a weight of like oh god I've got that but that for him was like a weight lifted and he he just felt so much more understanding of himself and also empathetic with himself like I haven't just been a dick I haven't just been a dad that's like running off he's interestingly we counted his um medals the other day which which we don't do often what are these medals for well the first year of Ray's life he ended up doing seven eight races so it was it was interesting because it was all the day the year she was born so it was like 2021 2021, 2021, 2021.

30:28Giovanna Fletcher: And I was like, oh my God, to now see it, that you were escaping how you were feeling by doing marathons, by doing triathlons. And it's amazing because back then I was like, oh, it's great that he's training, but also didn't realise that it was his therapy. He was leaving the house and I was like, why are you going for another run? Just need to escape. So that, yeah, Ray actually said, she was like, why has daddy got so many and you've got none? And I was like, I don't do that, Ray. I didn't get one for pushing you out because I'm a cesarean honey you don't get medals for being a

31:02Chessie King: mum do you no you don't you don't I guess so from your point of view suddenly understanding him in that way did things shift for you in terms of how you were able to receive what he was giving you but also moving forward did you feel like you were together straight away no no no it took a

31:20Giovanna Fletcher: long time to rebuild I say it's like we were honestly you had us in a room together we actually went on a like um I was going to say a school trip it wasn't a school trip it was a friend trip a ski trip and then everyone's like oh my god I didn't realize you were two were so bad we didn't sit together at lunch we didn't even like we didn't even talk we'd like it's the sort of thing where you are so far off from being in love with each other and like all that like touching we didn't touch for a year and my love language is touched so I felt very unloved um but no it was like at the end of the day we'd like just say yeah how was your day yeah good just turn over and then go to sleep so we we were so so bad like really awful never arguing though not like massive blowouts which I always thought divorce was I always thought that the end of a relationship was rage and anger at each other and it wasn't it was just I feel really let down by you and and this was before the conversation of realizing what he was going through so as soon as he told me we just had this it opened up both of us like our heart it was almost like we'd been like hiding and we suddenly had this openness of right how can we help each other like what are we going to do and I remember him saying I think it's easier for us to leave each other but it would be harder for us to stay together and I was like well I'm choosing the harder one because I want to work I want to work for this and before that I was like I'm done I don't want anything to do with him as the father of my child even then it's so sad saying it but I was like I'm I'm completely out of this I'm tapped out so it was just almost conversation after conversation and he carried on going to therapy I I'm so open anyway that I never really keep things in so I felt like I didn't need it but I understand why it's so necessary for some people but I'm I'm very much like I ask my friends if they're ready or able to like talk about deep stuff because I know everyone's going through so much it themselves so I'm like are you are you in a place where you can kind of receive what I'm about to tell you and a lot of them would be like I'm really busy with the kids I'm probably not able to but then I'd have like one friend who's like yeah of course oh my god pick up the phone we'd be on the phone for two hours and so I didn't use my friends in any way but they really helped me and I didn't have any friends that had divorced or gone through it but they all just understood that like what I needed in that very moment so yeah for a lot of

33:58Chessie King: people sitting down and having that big conversation especially when that air of not animosity but you're kind of living in a house together and not really being a couple yeah it feels really daunting to sort of sit down and across the table and go, this is how I'm feeling. Especially when you've not been doing that and you're so disconnected.

34:15Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah, you're literally housemates. You're like, we weren't even recognisable versions of each other. But the sitting down, interestingly, I read something before we had the chat that said, do not sit opposite each other. Because that's so daunting. It's like, I'm looking you in the eyes and I've got, it said either walk and talk side by side or sit on a sofa where you both feel comfortable and you're kind of just in your own space. yeah so we that was it oh really and it's funny because I look at that part of the sofa and I'm like this is where we had the chat that could have ended it all yeah and it it's really it's so powerful looking back at that version of us and being like whoa like difficult moments in my life have always always taught me something and I've taken so much strength from those in when you're in it you're in it and you're in the pits and it's it's a lot of emotion but actually looking back I'm like, we would not be where we are now.

35:11Giovanna Fletcher: Absolutely. Having gone through that.

35:15Chessie King: And that works both ways, right? For anyone that's going through postnatal depression and feeling like they're, whether it's whatever partner it is, feeling like they're apart from each other. Who actually started the conversation? Did you know that it was going to be?

35:29Giovanna Fletcher: He opened it up with that conversation. He'd just been to therapy. And I will forever thank his therapist, who I have no contact with, no relation to. And to say that one thing, which I always say, it's such a strange question to ask someone, but it was phenomenal. It was like, what is it like living with me? And my response was, we're housemates. We don't have any relationship right now. I can't be myself around you at all. I can't even, it's just, it was so bizarre because I'm very much like I will always judge someone on how they make me feel. If I can be myself around them, then I love that person.

36:12Giovanna Fletcher: I never judge them on who they are. And I could not be myself around that. And so that's why I felt so like, I don't want you in my house. It's flipping amazing how you've turned it around. There's that messaging of, oh, having a baby will ruin your relationship. But actually it reinvents your relationship in whatever form that is. Maybe you do realise that actually we're not great together. And I listened to your amazing episode with Harriet and I was like, well, yeah, so that's the other side. Because she went, nah, this isn't for us. I've got to do it for her, her daughter. And I thought that was so powerful because I was like, yeah, of course.

36:47Giovanna Fletcher: But there was something that told me like, you're going to be all right. Yeah.

37:04Giovanna Fletcher: We must strengthen after-school programs.

37:08Chessie King: We must make digital literacy tools available in our schools. We must work with mental health professionals to support children. And we must empower mentors, educators, and parents to keep kids happy. Learn more about our commitment to finding lasting solutions at empowerourfuturecoalition.com

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38:32Chessie King: how did you feel heading towards a bus and what point because what in your head before yeah you knew that you had to go for a c-section what in your head would your birth have looked like oh i was i was a bit of a i'm still a realist but i was like oh i can just i trust my

38:50Giovanna Fletcher: that I can do this at home in a pool with not much going on with a doula. And my goodness, it was the opposite of that.

39:01Chessie King: It was totally different. But when the doctor said, look, you've had your mini stroke and things with your heart, so we're going to have to go for a C-section. How did that feel?

39:10Giovanna Fletcher: So I walked in at 20 weeks pregnant thinking I'm on my own. Matt can't come with me. I thought it was just a normal 20-week checkup. walked in there was six people so I was like I do I did I have to prepare an audition 20 degree monologue what's this X factor um I I just had I had no idea why there were six of them and so I sat down and it was honestly me and then six cardiologists that I didn't realize they were even cardiologists until they said so what's your dream birth and I was like oh oh that's setting you up for a fall it was like saying you know like things go out of stock or out of um they stopped producing them yeah it's like saying what's your favorite chocolate bar oh by the way sorry it's gone out of like we're never going to make that again so you can't have that so they they i i explained it to them i said exactly what i just said to you and they just laughed they literally laughed and this is what makes me i'm like how did i deal with that on my own and i just was like oh what's going on and they went we've got you down as a cesarean francesca and I was like no one calls me Francesca but I was shocked I was literally like Matt's not here I'm on my own I've been in this hospital many times yeah overnight and you're telling me that I can't have a birth like they just they almost found it hilarious that I thought I was able to

40:31Chessie King: have a natural vaginal birth sorry at what point surely one of them on that sort of six would have

40:38Giovanna Fletcher: gone we could have said that different in a different way but so interestingly and i never liked a gender stereotype but it was a man that just went oh like oh honey sorry and then a really lovely cardiologist who was kind of sat on the end female really lovely afterwards just came and like held my hand went i know your husband's not here i know it's a lot to take in and i know that you wanted something very different but she said you you might not even be able to have him in the room let alone a doula and I was like yeah okay um so she was like it's it's for your safety they kept on saying it's for your safety we believe that if you did um then you wouldn't be okay and neither would the baby so I just thought I've got to trust them they're the medical professionals and interestingly and I I'm not woo woo I don't believe in yeah but I do truly believe that Aurelia have fixed my heart I haven't had an episode since no way so yeah they they monitored me the whole pregnancy they were like you're doing so well like it's not um you haven't had one episode and so since then I it's been five and a half six years haven't had an episode it's amazing and I was having them every two weeks where my heart rate would shoot up to 260 um so yeah and I like I've got the scar to show it I didn't it had an operation but they didn't do anything um like actually medically yeah and yes she did so apparently and I've looked into this a lot the fetal cells of a healthy baby can and can provide the mother with healing properties so but it goes back to that I need my mum to be as healthy as possible when she gives birth to me so I'm gonna give yeah so after all of that I go back to like I was being so sick and you were

42:21Chessie King: literally healing me how cool also though being so sick you must there must have been moments of that where you're like well what effect is that having on my heart so true yeah so it's all just

42:33Giovanna Fletcher: magical I just think I'm like wow how cool that that even happened and as much as the cesarean felt very uh different I'd written that night uh the night that I came back from the hospital I told Matt I was just in tears and I feel things in the moment I don't just let them build up I'm I've learned to just feel them and I'm very good I think one of my like I'm very good at just going okay I felt it now what can we do to make that more comfortable or what can we do to move on without dismissing yeah yeah exactly and I wrote down this um I didn't even see it anywhere I just literally sat in bed and I went I'm gonna write a letter to that birth that I dreamt of and be like look we're not going to meet this time around because it's unsafe and it's the best decision for both of us but actually we may meet in the future and how cool will it be when we can actually do it and it felt so cathartic and so like wow like okay I've made peace now yeah I'm gonna go for that sorry yeah I went in we were told we had a nine o 'clock slot and because it was covid we weren't allowed to be near anyone and um so i we we got shunned into a store cupboard with stacked up chairs and all like the like almost like being in an nhs encyclopedia it was very bizarre and um and they left us there they kept on popping in go i'm sorry we've got an emergency we just have to push you back and we were like don't worry i mean i was starving because you know, but we had the funniest, the funniest day I think we've ever had up until the caesarean, which then, but we basically, we set each other, we had our Spotify's up and we set each other a challenge, bearing in mind, I'm huge.

44:25Giovanna Fletcher: We're in our gowns, we're all ready. And they kept on, kept on saying, right, sorry, it's going to be another hour. And I was like, I can't do anything but think about food. So we're gonna have to do something that distracts me. So we'd have our Spotify's and we wouldn't tell each other the genre of music and then we'd have to do an interpretive dance so the next person so I get like cowgirl music on and then Matt would like listen to it go yeah like start dancing and we did that for ages gee and honestly if anyone's going in for Cesarone it passes the time but then I think oh normal people outside of Covid would be in a ward with other people.

44:58Chessie King: That's very true that's very true I'm not having to play that game in a store cupboard.

45:03Giovanna Fletcher: I show people the videos and they're like, where were you? I was like, we weren't allowed next to anyone else. So that was the funniest thing. I mean, I was so hungry and I just remember being like, we've got to keep going, Matt, until they say three o 'clock. So it was six hours of interpretive dance. Wow. Sweating, just like having the time of our lives. Anyway, he got in and they were like, really sorry, Matt's not able to come in. Even though he'd done the, all the way down the nose test, it'd come back clear. And then they said, he can come in, but he can't sit next to you because I was like please like he's clear it's not he's not infecting anyone so my midwife was able to hold my hand Matt was the other side of the room for the epidural and um and I remember hearing them say oh she's quite a tall girl put some more in just just put some more in that sounds scientific what they called anesthetic no um anethicis anethicis that one that one right there she was so sweet but so like yeah yeah she's like nearly six foot apparently on her on her things um so they put in more and when I say I was numb from my chin down I couldn't feel a thing and I didn't realize like I had my best friends and I'm the sort of person who just wants to know I'm like tell me I prefer to know than not know yeah and she was like yeah you're right you feel a bit out of it oh god I was completely out of it I don't know what they gave me but I was literally like she was past me and now I'm like I can't even feel her Matt I'm numb here and I was like I was scared I was gonna drop her like I had no feeling in my body I had no no actual um coherent thoughts

46:40Chessie King: so yeah don't know what they gave me that was just that felt so weird like your first moment

46:46Giovanna Fletcher: with your daughter just kind of being a little bit out of it very strange I look at videos now and I'm like whoa she wasn't okay and then going back into the recovery ward obviously Matt was like um oh she's she probably needs some anti-sickness medication because she's been really unwell first thing i do i have aurelia just i'm sick all over her covered this new baby and i'm literally and they're like whoa whoa okay and matt's like holding ray like trying to brush her down i had a midwife like i looked so drunk i looked like i'd been on like a five-day bender and i was so out of it that i was like how can matt leave in an hour yeah i don't even know my name and there's a video that I sent to Bronte my sister and it's like up close and I'm like sis I'm on the recovery ward and she's on my chest and my eyes are going all funny I'm like you left me with a baby on my own that in that state where I didn't even know my name like how

47:39Chessie King: is that okay was it was it the HG that made you sick on uh or was it the reaction to what they've

47:46Giovanna Fletcher: given you probably yeah because usually that magically lifts as soon as the baby's out everyone said hilariously you'll stop being sick when she comes out first thing I do she'll look good for the road may as well hadn't eaten anything either so obviously I don't know what it was um but I think it was just the the yeah like the drugs but everyone told me just just going to this one everyone told me I would have hyperemesis again so I kind of prepared for the worst and I I really want to tell everyone like oh don't don't worry I'm I'm actually okay I was so scared that I would get it again. But actually, I think there's that fear of like, well, once you have it, you have it.

48:26Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah. Yeah, consecutive pregnancies. But I don't know whether it's because my body's forgotten after five years. I don't know whether it was because I was one of the first ever pregnant people to take the COVID jab, which they said, oh, probably shouldn't now. Really? I don't know. But yeah, I think the thing that really helped me the other day, we had our midwife appointment and she just said, on behalf of the NHS I am so sorry your husband had to leave an hour and a half after. Really? Because she was like it's obviously not and I was like no it's not you and she said no but I need to apologise because you probably never heard that and I was like that really helped like because they, she said we didn't know what we were doing.

49:04Chessie King: It is that isn't it? I feel like so often we're like oh my god but actually everyone was trying to figure out what they should be doing and no one knew in those times what was the right thing. exactly but leaving their mum person no leaving a mum there that's out of it to look after their newborn probably not the best not the best I did it though you did you just do it don't you how was

49:27Giovanna Fletcher: it bringing Amelia home um god I was sore I just didn't think that I would be that sore like Matt had to I handed over all basic needs he had to lower me to the toilet and like wait until I'd finish to hold me back up and i just think it's so incredible how you can be sent home after seven layers like and then just be like yeah good luck with the baby it's like what like single moms who do that solo parenting wow yeah phenomenal and i just wish that we could like especially in the uk every parent or mother to be given support for those first 40 days when the netherlands they

50:05Chessie King: give there's literally there's someone with you for 10 days like it's in hospital uh I think maybe at home. Yeah, isn't that crazy? Wow. Going back like, I don't know, 60 years, you would have been in hospital for 10 days. And then, although Tom's Nan tells this story, she said that, you know, various times in the day, they'd come on the labour ward and they'd get all the mums to turn around on their tummies so that they would come out with their tummies. No, no, no, no. That's worse than belly binding. They'd get them to lie on their tummies, yeah. come on ladies turn around yeah what are you doing you've only just had a baby come on yeah that's outrageous that is outrageous but so many cultures you know there's cultures that you literally sit in bed for 40 days and people just come and see you in the room and they come and help you and you know you are not meant to lift a finger the whole conversation around make sure

50:58Giovanna Fletcher: you accept all the help you're given or offered is very i found this really hard because i was like but then you get judged on any help that you do get yeah so anyone that's like she's all right she's got an an eight or she's all right she's got breastfeeding support but but then we're told we're telling mothers to accept that help so this time around i'm gonna say yes to every single help that's ever offered because we didn't first time around no one no one was really even allowed in the house so it was like oh no don't worry we'll be fine and matt was always like it's okay because he didn't want anyone to see how much he was struggling and that's actually something that's come around like mum said will you accept our help our help this time around and I was like yes we will we'll be coming home don't you worry but Matt never he was like oh I think we're okay Jess I think we're all right without your mum coming up and being in the bubble yeah yeah yeah and it's funny isn't it because you're like first time you're like I've got it you want to be the superhero about it yeah I mean you simply don't have to be you really do not no one's no one's congratulating

52:00Chessie King: you on doing it yourself how was your recovery you've a sore but and also i feel like with something like a c-section or i had stitches below you don't know what that process is like you don't know what you're meant to be feeling exactly first time around and i didn't have the

52:14Giovanna Fletcher: dissolvable ones i had the ones that they just pulled out and i was like that that was honestly day six and they were like right we're gonna take them out and i was like what take what out and they were like there's things that they're spiky like this with balls on and i looked like i'd been frankensteined like I could not believe that they just sent me off with a with a yeah anyway they just went like that and I was like yeah I didn't look at that um my recovery I think it took longer than I ever expected um but then again I don't think I I got the help to recover quickly I think I was just very much like oh my body will do its thing yeah yeah uh you did try having sex after seven weeks we did and that was horrendous it was like sandpaper it was like a hedgehog going inside

53:02Chessie King: me i wouldn't were you doing that because you were like look this is something that i have to do like

53:07Giovanna Fletcher: get back on the horse i thought so right yeah i think it was i think it was like let's talk about sex after a baby and then it was like well let's try it because everyone says six weeks and then you're off and oh goodness we were laughing about it though we were like this is this is you you you enjoy this no are you no let's stop that then um and i think because you try to get at eight weeks you try to get at nine weeks you're like imagine you know more about my sex life it's thursday let's try this guys raise a sleep are you ready oh it was just not and then and then then we just didn't really for a long long long long long time yeah no it's just very especially when we were going through the patch we just didn't even yeah didn't even touch parts of our body let alone do the whole intercourse um but yes it's it's also very strange everyone's like oh you made a baby this time around i'm like we actually did it we gave the ingredients to the ivf clinic they made the baby for us because it's really strange thinking we didn't actually have sex to make this baby yeah that's a really funny thing i mean it's funny but also like wow like science is mad but we just went yeah here's here's matt's sperm here's my eggs and you just do what you need to do with it to make a child and it's just amazing and then we've like got embryos ready to go if we want to go again and it's like they're fraternal twins that's what's so cute so if we do if it does work again and we're able to then this would be they'd be twins technically and they know each other like in the little they'd be shivering away because they're all in the icebox aren't they um like i know you i'm sure we met at the first five days yeah very sweet yeah did your periods come back at all after having a radia they did and i do hear that a lot of a lot of my friends that have had a regular periods they're like oh they're back there i was never clockwork yeah god no um and that's something that when um i went for probably about seven scans before going to the clinic that we actually went with for ivf and they would all go in and they go oh okay we can see your right ovary but can't find your left we'll go to the right and they'd look at the right and it was really strange because i i'm quite good at speaking up for myself maybe not in the hairdressers when they've cut a bit more off and i'm like oh now i've got a bar i love it or nail color when they're starting to like put it on you're like that's not white jose but i can't say anything but in in a gynecological sense like So they were going up and yeah, the internal scans never showed exactly what was going on.

55:47Giovanna Fletcher: So you think with Aurelia, I just was like, oh, I've got irregular periods. And then it was only until the embryologist that created this human inside me was doing it. And he was phenomenal. So outstanding. I can't even, he was so thorough. He took like 20 minutes on just that left ovary. And he went, I'm going to give you an analogy that hopefully will make you see it in a better way. but your left ovary is stuck on your uterus like a party hat and it shouldn't be there because it's fused itself there and that means your flopping tube is here and he said I'm just gonna say that trying naturally would be more dangerous than you actually going through IVF because he said I think your miscarriage was an ectopic so it could have erupted and yeah um but he said your right ovary is obviously it's releasing eggs and you're fine.

56:40Giovanna Fletcher: But this left ovary, if it did release an egg, then it would carry... Yeah, so he was like, well, we need to look at different options. And that's when we thought, well, IVF is probably the safest for us.

56:52Chessie King: And getting to that place after having a miscarriage as well. Oh, yes. But also that, like, you could have easily gone, well, I did get pregnant, so let's just carry on because, you know, it would just happen again. But actually, that could have been really bad.

57:05Giovanna Fletcher: I know. And I didn't know. I had no idea. And I've never been diagnosed with anything like inside. And he was like, well, yeah, you've got endometriosis. I was like, ah, I'm 32. And I had no idea. And he was like, well, that explains everything. And I was like, yeah, okay.

57:21Chessie King: okay so how did that feel getting that diagnosis and suddenly having that understanding of your

57:26Giovanna Fletcher: body it was a real relief because I was like it makes sense yeah and I think I'd been so like shunned by every other sonographer or every other um fertility clinic that had scanned and gone oh we can't find it let's just go and that just shows like the inexperience I understand that it's not them being yeah like a dick but now I realize like I needed to go to someone that really genuinely understood the female body even though he was male and he yeah he was just amazing and he took so much time and care to personalize every single stage of our IVF journey because I had endometriosis and because of all these things that I just had no idea so that really was like a wow moment like and then that was like well of course we can't carry on trying naturally like it's been over yeah just a long long time of not knowing what's going on and yeah it was um

58:24Chessie King: really incredible watching your fertility journey and you were so honest and open about it every month when you posted a video of you know a negative negative test or talking about i remember you're talking about a dress that you had bought, you know, when you're looking ahead to the future going, oh, but by then I'll be pregnant. So I need to buy something that's going to be adaptable to that bump. You know, you were so open with it. I think that would have helped so many people.

58:53Giovanna Fletcher: Thank you. I found like you never, I was able to speak about it because it was my second time. I think the first time round I would have kept it all private because we're told to, as women, to keep it private, to keep it all quiet, hush, hush until 12 weeks, and then you can speak about it. And I found that really hard because I was really struggling to understand why. And it just every month, I didn't post from literally the offset. It was like six months in where I was like, okay, wow, this is not happening. And it almost felt like I was able to give that kind of solace, that like safe place with the other women that were going through it going, okay, it's not just me because it is really lonely especially miscarriage because it was such an early miscarriage they call it a chemical pregnancy and you know i was i was only in quotes four weeks and and everyone's like well that's not a miscarriage and it is that whole like oh yeah no i i'm i'm grieving something that didn't exist properly but it still was a

59:55Chessie King: positive i call it a miscarriage yeah i feel like chemical pregnancy makes it feel so clinical and like a not a real thing whereas a miscarriage for me feels more significant for for the mother as well you know it's it matches the significance of what's happened so true and you do lose something

1:00:14Giovanna Fletcher: because you lose what you kind of thought your future would be like and that was back like last March so it it was just so fascinating and so expensive actually anyone that is listening you you're you think like the price up front of IVF is like it and then all of the medication and everything you're like okay that's another big like it sometimes matches the actual price of the IVF the medication yeah and what clinics do and obviously I understand it's the pharma industry they put advance on it so they will add 50 % of the price. Whereas, and I don't know if we're allowed to say this, other pharmacies are available, but Asda is the only pharmacy that sells fertility medication at cost price.

1:01:06Giovanna Fletcher: Whoa. Which I did not know until I walked in and they were like, oh yeah, that's literally half what you've been invoiced. Half. When you're paying£3 ,000 for medication, then they tell you it's only£1 ,500. for the time you're on it so i i was never prepared for how much it would actually cost

1:01:25Chessie King: was there a part of you after the loss that felt like doing the ivf doing like going down the ivf route suddenly there's a there's help with it do you know i mean there's a there's a very different thing then to have that loss and feel quite lost to suddenly feel like don't worry we've we've got you yeah i know that you never know what that what the outcome is going to be with ivf but feeling

1:01:47Giovanna Fletcher: like actually it's not just on you now there's a team yeah oh my god you feel so well looked after depending on your fertility clinic but we were so lucky that this fertility clinic they had basically got a 98 success rate first time like which is outrageous and they it was because they work so hard to personalize everything and I felt so supported I wasn't lost I wasn't like what do we do now do we just carry on we looked at every other option and um and we were like no this is right because they are every single three days I'd go for blood tests and a scan um and I knew what I was doing I felt like I could actually be productive like when you're injecting yourself you're like oh I'm doing something for this future child and even after 100 and I think I counted 148 injections um I just felt like I was so I loved doing them at the end which was really strange I was like this is so cool that this could result and our initial response actually like looking back at our reaction of finding out we were we were pregnant was it was all worth it and that felt so lovely like it worked I am just so in awe of everyone that has

1:03:03Chessie King: to go and do those injections. I broke my foot about five years ago. And for a week, I had to give myself injections in my tummy just to make sure there was no clots. And oh my gosh, I was in so much. Every time I had to really work. And I know it's maybe different when you kind of go, no, you've got a purpose. You know, there's a reason for this. It's going to lead me towards my baby. But Jesus Christ, they fucking hurt. They sting like a motherfucker.

1:03:28Giovanna Fletcher: Oh, yeah. And Matt's diabetic. He's type one diabetic. So he's literally done thousands and thousands. Put yourself together. Yeah. But he was so incredible. He was like, of course this is hard for you. It's so unnatural. Like, I would literally, I'm not even joking, there's a video, it's 25 minutes of me going, OK, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. And me holding the injection and going, I'll do it in a minute. I'll do it in a minute. So literally back and forth. And he was just there, just like watching and supporting and going, you can do this. And it was only, he only did the first like two, three days.

1:04:00Giovanna Fletcher: and then I was off I was like I've got this you're gonna be away so I'm gonna do it and then I started doing it and as soon as I found out that um actually it wasn't when I found out I was pregnant it was when I we actually started so the stims the stimulation injections are for like I mean they can be up to three four months it depends on your um egg reserve or how your follicles are reacting um and then when you actually start the process of like the embryo transfer I felt this really like protective I don't want to inject in my tummy it felt really and I was covered in bruises so I was like I'm gonna can I start doing them somewhere else and they were like yeah you could do them in your bottom you could do them in your legs so I started doing them in my legs and I actually felt a lot it felt a lot safer I know that the injection is not going to go in and do anything it's not going to pop anything but I just almost felt this like oh I kind of want to preserve that area keep it safe if it's feeling tender because of bruises as well quite nice to go to a new a new location yeah yeah just swap the thighs um but it's yeah it's funny you you that's the best piece of advice if anyone is going through it or it's about to start injections um is pop a bit of chocolate if you don't like chocolate a sweet something that you savor and pop it in just before you're about to inject and just focus on the taste and it's so weird you genuinely don't feel them as much really yeah it's like i melted this piece and i'd always have this one specific chocolate and I'd put it in and it would just melt and I'd do the injection all I could taste and think about was what I was eating and it was amazing it was like my brain was just like tricking it was so good you know the whole like look up here and then I'm just gonna slap me it's like that is there anything you wish you knew about the IVF journey before you got on it apart from how expensive it was um just how you're not allowed to really move your body it's quite an old school thing but they basically say um to there's so many things that different opinions yeah on exercise and movement some say just walk walking's the most you can do some say yeah you can lift light weights all of this but you're not allowed to go swimming because you've got to keep the um area hygienic you can't obviously for the embryo transfer it has to be all quite clinical yeah um and I and I just found that really strange because movement for me in any form is is uh escapism and and it really calms me it makes me feel strong and I found that hard to take away my vice for like two three months of like now you can't actually move so that's why I feel like now I'm so great so incredibly thankful for being able to just move my body for many reasons but also because it was taken away from me and then also just like the fact that everyone says that it's such an intense process but it's also in in it is psychologically mentally physically it's so intense but it's also the most intensely beautiful thing I've ever been through like honestly the trust that you have for your body and you develop you're like you're doing what you need to do here and like I'm just I'm giving you the potions and giving you what you need to create a child like but to create an environment that's ready for that embryo and I felt like Matt and I were the closest we have ever been in the 10 years of our relationship because we were doing it together and we were sat there and I appreciate there's so many women that do it with a sperm donor so they don't have that but even if you have a best friend that can come and just sit with you and like do the injections with you and I just felt like wow like this is so different to anything we've ever experienced and you're handing over like you're handing over the the the kind of control not control but the result because you don't have you can do all the things that they tell you tick tick tick tick tick but it may not work first time and we were just so lucky that it did because of the clinic I think

1:08:03Chessie King: The whole process must have felt so different to first time around with the radio when you're kind of like, well, I'm trying, even though I don't know what's going on. And that's kind of avoidant of the situation. Whereas now you it has been something that you've really worked on together. Yeah.

1:08:19Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah. It's just it is amazing. It's so different. I think in every aspect of my pregnancy and my birth and the lead up to it, I think this is like I said at the beginning, we're rewriting that whole narrative of like what pregnancy can be. And I always heard people say it's such a different experience no matter how many children you have. You're never going to have the same experience. But I think because I struggled in so many different ways and there were so many aspects that I was out of control. This is like, I just feel like even though it took so long and it was a big process to get to where we are.

1:08:55Giovanna Fletcher: I think it gives me a whole different perspective of pregnancy. How are you feeling about the birth this time around? Have you been told anything? So I've been told I'm allowed to try for my dream birth. All the water. Yeah. She's going in. I want seven doulas. I truly, truly believe that I will be able to do it. But if I can't, I'm a realist. You're going to be kind to yourself. Yeah, and be like, well, it's all right. At least I tried. Interestingly, a lot of my best friends who have had caesareans want a caesarean again because they love the knowing. they love um they just love the whole experience and they feel like you're someone though who

1:09:35Chessie King: likes to experience different things in life i want to feel the contractions i want to know what it's about i want the pain i want yeah i want all of it are you doing hypnobirthing anything like that i haven't started i mean i did there's so much time yeah so much time we've got some yeah if you could write a letter on motherhood who it'd be to and what would you say

1:09:54Giovanna Fletcher: you're gonna laugh so much but i said to matt i was like i think i'm gonna write it to hugo our dog because or any animal that you had before a child i feel we've never had it to a pet i love this so

1:10:07Chessie King: much i love it i love it do you know why gee i feel so bad sometimes for hugo he was our baby

1:10:14Giovanna Fletcher: and i and i hear this all the time of like i loved my dog until i had a child and i really feel so bad because like he is such an incredible part of the family and aurelia adores him and he makes us laughs so much like he's oh he's gorgeous he's what how old is he seven this year he was here two years before Aurelia and I think he's honestly witnessed like every every season that I've been in he's like seen me when I'm pregnant he's seen Aurelia like the introduction was very cute and he like licked her for a bit and smelled and then was like oh god that doesn't smell good I'm off and I just feel really I want to write him a letter and just be like look Hugo we still adore you we just don't have as much time for you and I know my patience is definitely not as strong as it used to be with you which is with Aurelia she's strengthened that but I just feel like you you see them in a different way and I feel like they do go down the pecking order and I do feel really bad because like I adore him but there's so many moments where I'm like I'll open the door and you can just run off and find a new family because you've been barking all day and then and then he does something really cute and I'm like I love you so much I'm so sorry I said that um but I do

1:11:23Chessie King: yeah to all the pets that feel a bit neglected if I look back at my camera roll right before I had kids it was always my cats could not take enough photos of my cats right then no photos of cats only my kids now I've got Dennis my golden retriever no photos of kids so I think actually timing of when those pets are in your life it's also really key to this

1:11:48Giovanna Fletcher: okay maybe I need to get another one after having this baby okay here we go and then Hugo might be in more photos oh poor Hugo no he he'll read that and it'll go thanks mum because he is a super dog that you've just failed to see actually that's it I'm an awful bad parent okay no I feel better now I've read that I've written that to him but I'm glad that I was the first person to ever read I was like it could either be my best friend and me being all like soppy and be like you're the most incredible mum ever. It could just be you.

1:12:18Chessie King: So funny. So I wrote Letters of Motherhood, which is where that question comes from, like years and years ago. So that question kind of went in. And even in that book, I don't think I even addressed the cats. That's how shit I am. I should have addressed a letter to Leia and Aurora. Do it tonight. Well, they're dead now. They won't. Oh, shit. They won't. They're dead now. Look, Leia lived for 17 years, and she was... Strong pussy. strong pussy I had a strong pussy you did yeah and now not so

1:12:54Giovanna Fletcher: imagine going back home to Tom and being like I'm going to write a letter to my strong pussy that has

1:13:00Chessie King: died now but it is interesting though seeing your kids around those pets that have been a massive part of your life that maybe you have neglected and actually seeing your kids go oh like whether that's chasing around the garden or just being together it is a gorgeous layer aw we end the podcast I thought that was it. With you completing three sentences. Brilliant. Okay. The first one is being a mum means?

1:13:25Giovanna Fletcher: Purpose. The most beautiful purpose I've ever been given ever. It's like the best thing. It's so hard, but it's just phenomenal. Extraordinary. Since having a child, I? have done everything that my little like little chessie would have want me to have done

1:13:48Chessie King: and i'm happy when

1:13:52Giovanna Fletcher: happiest when i'm just with surrounded by my family and

1:13:59Chessie King: yes you are yes you go you made it on the podcast you make her happy he's gonna listen to this and be like wow i really got a shout out oh thank you gee you're so incredible you are thank you so much thank you for all of your joy

1:14:18Chessie King: salt and vinegar crisps you said the team are delivering love you not even just one type of salt and vinegar crisp actually two types of salt and vinegar crisps and they're the big hoops do you want to get down on one knee and propose. Thank you.

1:14:33Giovanna Fletcher: Honestly, you're so incredible. Thank you.

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