Comedian Emma Doran: Pregnant at 18 in a Convent School

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1:58Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's guest is Emma Doran. Now, Emma is someone who has been on my Instagram feed for quite some time. I always get her little comedy sketches through. Turns out she's actually a funny human in real life and that is a profession. She's a stand-up comedian. Something that she started whilst on maternity leave. That blows my mind. And in fact, she says in this chat that actually her baby was six weeks old when she decided to sign herself up for her first stand-up gig at a local comedy club. Knowing where my mind was at six weeks, I applaud her wholly.

2:40She's also got a podcast called Keep It Tight and she is an author. Her book is Mad, Isn't It? Which I thoroughly enjoyed reading. I really recommend reading that, actually. It's one that follows her life in Dublin, going to a convent school and then getting pregnant at 18. I think Emma's absolutely exceptional. And she is very, very funny. Very, very, very funny. She's very funny. But the chat gets quite deep. I think when we're younger, we're told about, you know, oh, we don't get pregnant. We don't do that. Especially if, you know, me and Emma are the same sort of generation. she references the fact that when she did get that news the first thing was I fucked it and yes we do have now an E on this on this podcast simply from me but it was going to be in the podcast anyway and actually the reality of chatting to a woman who has a 22 year old and absolutely thinks that that was a total gift the universe just thought she should have it a little bit earlier absolutely beautiful please enjoy this episode

3:40so immaculate is when i was growing up that was like the biggest compliment that a mom could give another mom if she told her that her house was immaculate yeah and her children were immaculate and you know she got new curtains oh they're absolutely immaculate and the new floor is immaculate and all that's kind of like my mom's generation they had to have everything tickety boo immaculate because the roles were very defined then the house was your responsibility no one else was to blame for the house it was an estate but obviously we now know all those women were having breakdowns by the scenes because they were left doing everything and it's impossible to get it all done yes so it's kind of a little nod to my mum's generation and then I just go through my relationship with her and then with my daughter and so it's actually a lot of it is about mams and mothers and family dynamics and relationships I think you're on tour now aren't you?

4:35I'm on tour now Are you halfway through the tour? I'm adding more dates. Yeah, I'm adding more dates. So I'm going to be, I'm just going to be going for a while. You are busy. I'm, yeah, but look, do you know what? I have done, I've done office jobs. I've done kitchen porter. This is grand. I mean, gloriously busy. Like, it's, what a beautiful spot to be in. It's lovely. To add to those dates. Yeah, yeah. You know, keep going round. I love the fact that it was on maternity leave that you decided to sign up for your first stand-up gig. I don't know. Crazy. I mean, were you just kind of going, oh, probably...

5:14Was it something in the back of your mind that you thought, that is an avenue that I really want to go down and just hadn't quite managed to sort of make those moves? Or were you just like, no... What was it about that time that pushed you to kind of go, just go for it? I think maybe I knew as, like, a child or a young person that I maybe the dream would be like to perform or do something like that. Definitely be in front, out in front doing something. But I didn't really know how you would go about that. Yeah. Because any time I had read anything about stars or, you know, memoirs, everyone was always saying that they fell into it.

5:53Right. Nobody really admitted that like, oh, I really wanted to do this and I chased it. And, you know, they were just like kind of discovered or whatever. so I was like okay that's how that happens and then I think it had kind of been yeah it kind of had been in the back of my head but it hadn't come to that realisation or acceptance that you have to put yourself out there or you have to be vulnerable you have to kind of admit I want to do this you kind of have to say look at I'm a big show off you know look at me I wasn't ready I was kind of just like oh god Scarlett or whatever but I think when I was on maternity leave that time it's that I mean when you read it on paper it sounds like God she was having an absolute breakdown like what was she thinking but it was actually probably in the best place I'd ever been so I'd had my daughter 10 years previously so I was a teenager when I had her I was still in school I was a single parent I was living at home with my parents it was I mean absolutely chaotic life changing like a crisis pregnancy you know turned out it was the best thing that happened to me and my family as well because it brought us so close together and I didn't know at that age what an effect a baby can have on a whole family yeah you know and an extended family as well like I became close to people in my family that had had a very much like you know child relationship with like say aunts and stuff and now I had after that then I had relationships with them where we were two women yeah you know and it was really powerful.

7:31But that took a long time to kind of, I suppose, get myself up on my feet and feel like I was an independent, somewhat functioning adult. So then when I had my son at 29, so that was 10 years later, I'd now met someone, we were in a committed relationship. I was feeling like pretty good about myself. You know, I felt that I was, a good mom and I had done the best that I could and I'd gotten my degree and, you know, I'd done all those things I was supposed to do. But I hadn't, I think really what happened is in those 10 years, I hadn't really had time to look at the creative part of myself or even just kind of like myself.

8:18And when I had my son, I've been lucky that my experiences of like the actual labour have always been quite good and I always felt great after. After. Yeah. Like all those like lovely hormones really kicked in for me and I was just like I'm flying that I feel absolutely fantastic and I felt like because I didn't have to do a state exam in school I didn't have to go back to school and put on my uniform. You know I didn't have this kind of I suppose like shame hanging over me now. I was a woman having a baby with a man that I loved and I had a little family. And I was like, oh, I have this time now where I'm on maternity leave, but I could maybe do something.

9:08So I signed up for an open mic night and I think my son was like six weeks. I signed up like I got online and, you know, checked it up. and my partner Shane was like what like what you know what's happening I know you're good at telling jokes at a dinner party but it's just different no but like seriously it's not like he was like you're so funny or whatever he was just like what are you talking like honestly what's going on I didn't know anyone who did stand up I didn't really know anything about stand up or how it worked you know I knew people did the big venues but I didn't know anything about like the club scene or what that was so I had no um I had no expectations so when you did that gig yeah like did you have people that you know there or were you just like no I just want to go and experience it yes I wanted to just go and experience it but when you do an open mic they do kind of say to you don't forget to invite friends because obviously that's how the whole thing works is that you know you have 11 people on and they're going to bring people so I think I maybe said like that day I post something on Facebook saying I'm going to be at the Haveny Bridge Inn at this time tonight.

10:23You know, this kind of thing just to like I was like, I don't annoy anyone just so I can show them that I have said it. And then I think a friend of mine came and then my friend and I didn't know they were coming. Like I just rocked up and they were there. And then my friend's brother came. Right. With his girlfriend. So they were in the audience. How did it feel?

10:46it felt exhilarating now it's so funny because obviously since I've watched the clip I'm just like there's 18 people in the room and I'm like I'm acting like it's well-bleed do you know what I mean but it is a big thing to step out of your comfort zone and stand in front of those people and your main goal is to make them laugh it's huge and like I got laughed and I remember there was a woman down the back who was American. Now, an American person in Ireland thinking you're funny, oh, you've got to take that with a pinch of salt. Do you know what I mean? And they're very, I mean, it's changed now in America, but they're very enthusiastic as a nation.

11:23But she seemed very genuine, you know, and I was making people laugh, but I was only saying to someone there the other day, I mean, I had no idea what I was doing because when I would say my last joke, so I was writing this at home and I had like my son there and I'm, you know, I don't really know what I'm doing. I'm trying to like maybe time it out. I've no real sense of how long anything will take on stage compared to your sitting room. And when I would I would never get up and like introduce myself. It took me a long time to introduce myself. I would just go up and start talking and tell jokes.

11:56And then at the end, when I was finished, my last joke, I wouldn't say thanks so much. Or that's me, Donner. Right. Because I thought that's that's all feels a bit much because, you know, people would say I've been whoever, whoever. you can find me here there and everywhere and I'm like well where am I going to tell me to go back home to my newborn see you later guys I've nothing to promote here I've nothing to say so I just kind of would put the mic back and go and I think it's absolutely flipping amazing to think that you started that in maternity leave and to where you are now it's absolutely incredible but I think as well like when you're on when you're on maternity leave you've been through so much yeah yeah yeah you know you're kind of like and as well you've been really I think like that period of your life you are actually very open and vulnerable already yeah there's no way to go through that experience and be closed off yeah you can't so when I look at it now I kind of think God it kind of it kind of makes sense and that was the first time in my adult life that I'd had free time yeah so I'd never I'd never really Like when I was in college, you know, people be just like going off to do things after college.

13:12I was going back to my daughter. Like, so I never really had free time. So I just really thought it was my opportunity to have time that I didn't have to account for. So I've read Mad, isn't it? Which is a book as well, which I absolutely loved. Oh, thanks so much. It's such a gorgeous, such a gorgeous book that's really funny, honest. and you just follow it really, really easily. Oh, thanks. In a really gorgeous way. And obviously it does, it details your pregnancy with Ella. Yeah. And I wonder if you, like you said at the start, you weren't given the opportunity to think about what you wanted to be when you were older.

13:53Yes. What is that career? What is it that you are? Because actually you got pregnant really, really young. Yes. You went to an all-girls school. Yes. What was that like? well I've gone to all girls school for my whole life always and with nuns yes and this would be quite common you see so I wouldn't think anything of it and it would be quite common so I would have been in school with boys from like 4 or 5 5 to 6 like the first 2 years and then the boys go the boys go off to a boys school so somebody decided that we can keep them together but once they get to the age of seven I wonder what it is about seven I cannot mix seven it's just too much I even used to have a joke where so when I was in secondary school there was a boys and girls school right beside each other yeah and the girls started school at a quarter to nine and the boys started school at nine because they didn't want the boys and girls meeting on the way to school in case like they'd meet each other and just start like fornicating in the streets because the mere sight of each other didn't go wild.

15:04You know, like they couldn't let, they had to change all the times ever so slightly. And of course, we finished school earlier than the boys. So when we left the girls' school, we would saunter down to the boys' school ever so slowly. Like we'd be walking snail's pace. So we'd time it just as they started to leave school. But all girls' school, yeah, because I have never known any different. I don't know. I mean, some of the best laughs I had were in school, but I think it does really mess up your relationship with the opposite sex. Well, that's what I find really interesting. The idea that maybe children will learn better in a same-sex school because they don't have, you know, if they're attracted to the opposite sex, they don't have them there to distract them.

15:50But actually, a large part of the topic and the drive of the weekends or the evenings is then boys or girls. Yes. I think we were, I think looking back at it now, we were boy mad. And a few of my friends then later on that I would have met in college would have gone to mixed schools. Yeah. So usually the way it would have been is the mixed schools. Now, this is in Dublin. If you went somewhere that maybe there was a smaller population, they might just be mixed schools because they just, you know, just wouldn't have the demand for, like, say, two schools. but I mean most of the people I grew up with we all would have gone to single sex schools and then we would have met people in college that went to mixed schools and we were kind of like we couldn't get our heads around like were you not like going out with them all the time and like you know boyfriend girlfriend or like that that they would have a friend like a male friend we were like yeah but did you write him before and they were like no like he's my friend we're like what but he must fancy you like we just couldn't but they're like no sure I've known him since he was five.

16:53I've absolutely no interest in him that way at all. So it did. Yeah, I think probably you didn't really know what boys were. And you and they the boys had no idea what girls were, you know? Yeah, yeah. They and they never. You know, I think there was a lot of those boys that probably knew nothing about like, you know, how a woman's body worked or her cycle. or any of that stuff. And nuns, I would have had a few teachers that were nuns. Yeah. Like crazily, like my friend had a nun who was doing biology with them. Oh. I don't know how that works. Yeah. How does a nun teach biology? Is that not, does she believe in the Big Bang?

17:41I don't know how that works. But yeah, we were just so used to the nuns. Our principal was a nun. Yeah. Sister Basil. And, yeah, you would have, like, religion class. But you would never... I know we didn't have... We defo didn't have a sex education. Well, the sex education came after you were actually pregnant. So, I know that woman... The woman came in twice a year to talk about your periods. Yes. And then by the time she came in to talk to you about sex, you were already pregnant. Yeah, by the time she was kind of getting to actually drawing a penis on that board, I was like... You knew what the D was.

18:18Yeah, I was like, do you want me to take the class? Yes, you take five, have a smoke break. I'll teach them. I'll tell them all how I got pregnant. And like, we really were so naive. So like, we knew now we had obviously, you know, we knew how you, it wasn't like I was going and I didn't know how I got pregnant. You know, I knew all that. But you girls were talking about it as well. Yes, we were educating each other. You were talking about it. You were talking about imagine if any of us got pregnant or talking about people that had, what would you do in that situation? And you make a really good point in the book, actually, where it's very easy to have an opinion about what you would do in a certain situation when you're not in that situation.

18:51Yes. Yeah, you've got all these very set. And we all, for sure, we were kids ourselves. So we all very, and myself included, had very definite ideas about what you would do in this situation. What was, you know, what was acceptable, what was not acceptable. And we were so like conservative. I mean, we all were like, yeah, God, if you had, if you got pregnant and you weren't with somebody like terrible. Yeah. Like terrible. Terrible and kind of like, who'd look at you after that? But that's what we were kind of, that's what we grew up in. It's not that anyone was telling us that, but it's there.

19:31It's not a unique thing in your school. I feel like that was, especially at that time, that is how girls talked about that. Yes. You know, I don't think it's, and it is because you're kids, because of the things that are around you that are telling you that that would be the worst thing because the adults are telling you it's the worst thing you know yes um but the reality is of that is that there are girls who get pregnant in in their teens that's a big reality and for you that was um you came back from a holiday uh having having met a guy yeah you just didn't feel right yes at what point did your head go maybe it's that hmm I think probably quite soon really because um I was like yeah I think quite soon because I was a virgin you see oh my love I know one go one go as soon as I read the bit where you referenced to all other your oh my god the pads were there and you know from when I was on and she's like oh thank god you weren't still on them I was like oh fuck I didn't realise it was your first go no but I see now yes there had been perhaps one go right before so I'd say maybe half but I'm not too sure you see this is it as well it's very of the time yeah a lot of grace going on there yeah you know I remember getting phone calls from friends and they were like I think we rode but I can't be sure you know what I mean this kind of thing and your advice would be well do a pregnancy test and if you're not pregnant it's grand don't worry about it so there kind of had been a grey area but like this was this was very much like my first time of like I thought in my head I'm an I'm like an adult now I'm choosing to have sex so it was probably in my head you know there was probably a little voice in my head going you're after having sex you're after having sex you're after having sex don't you forget now you're after having sex and then yes I think I kind of got a I got a period but it wasn't like a real period yeah it was just kind of dark and like that was not like and short yeah and I was like that's not that's not my period that I'm used to and I went I didn't I might have told my friend a little bit oh yeah I told my friend she was like oh no no you can't it's not your time or whatever and I went and I got a pregnancy test but I went into like town like got the bus to the shopping centre yeah because I could have done it at home but I was really afraid if I turn around I see someone I know and you just even I mean the heat that would be going through your body buying a pregnancy test I'm sure everyone feels that but like you know as a teenager it's like oh my god and I went and did I got the test I went into a bathroom by myself did the test and it started to come up positive straight away so on TV I had seen like you know this big kind of people are like waiting for it to come up and like checking and the time and whatever.

22:38So I kind of had it in my head that that was going to happen. And then when it started to come up straight away, oh my God, like I fell to the floor and I'd never, I'd never experienced that before. Yeah. That actual like legs gone, slid down the bathroom. I'm fucked. I am totally, totally fucked. Like disaster. That's like the worst thing you can do. That's the worst thing that can happen to you. You've, you've absolutely fucked it now. What are you going to do? And then it would have been, I used to like, and it's hard to think of it now that you would feel that like, you would feel like that was such a bad thing and it was so life altering, but also so alone.

23:25Like I used to go to sleep then at that time. So my parents didn't know. You didn't tell anyone for weeks. Weeks. You just kept it to yourself. I can't imagine how that must have felt. Yeah. As a young, as a teenager to have to be carrying that weight. Yeah, it's I mean, it really is to keep a secret, something you're worried about to yourself. Yeah. It destroys you. And, you know, like you hear people tell stories of they didn't tell anyone about something for five, ten years or whatever. I mean, it's just impossible to function like that. And also I think when you're pregnant, it's a ticking time bomb.

24:08You know that secret isn't going anywhere. It's not going to, you know, it's only going to get harder to hide it. And I used to go to bed and I used to hope that I would wake up covered in blood. Because in my head I was like, okay, if that happens, that means that it's over. Yeah. Like that it's finished. I'm probably still don't have to tell anybody. Like it's when I think of that now, it is so sad. But it's really like my brain was completely adult. Emma, can I just say that that's why I think it's amazing that you are, that you share in the way that you have and that you've written the book.

24:48Because I think there are so many women who will go through it. And to know that there's someone else who has spoken about that feeling alone, that lost feeling. Imagine if you had your book when you were going through that time. I mean, if you'd be ready for it or not, but kind of that feeling of I'm not alone in this. And actually there is. Yes. There is life the other side of this. Just right now is fuck, fuck, fuck. But it doesn't mean that's going to continue. I know, because even like before I wrote the book, so I would have, you know, I'd be perfectly comfortable saying it to friends in private or whatever.

25:20And they would totally understand. But I actually felt hesitant to put it out there because then obviously that is now my child who I love and adore. and I can't imagine what my life would, like, you know, she's 22 now, but still felt, can I say that? Can I say that I wanted that to disappear? Like I felt a huge, even after all those years, I still felt a huge amount of guilt. I hadn't fully forgiven myself for feeling like that. And, you know, because sometimes you don't deal with these things at the time psychologically Logically, because you don't have the time to push it down and kind of get on with it.

26:03So, yeah, it kind of showed me that I hadn't at the time when I was beginning to write it, that I hadn't actually forgiven myself yet for feeling like that. Yeah. And then, you know, it's a bit cheesy, but you have to forget that you have to forgive the child that was you. Yeah. Like I was a child. Yeah. You know, absolutely. which I imagine was even more magnified when Ella was that age? Oh, when she was 18 or like coming up to 18. And she went to my old school. Really? So she's in the uniform that I was in when I was pregnant with her. She has loads of my old teachers. So you know, like there's these teachers that had you 20 years ago and they're still in the school and you're like, you look the exact same.

26:54what is happening did they make you in a factory or something you're like how are you Mrs Mitchell how are you you know and you're kind of I'm meeting these teachers at parent teacher meetings and like one of the teachers said to me he's like tell me it's true did she on the history test and I was like what so I was getting sick for stuff that I'd done 20 odd years ago but to actually to see her in the uniform and everything and even now still when I see like an 18 year old you see a child Do you know, like in your head at that time, you think you're like a woman of the world and you've got it all figured out and you're so sophisticated.

27:31And when you actually see an 18 year old, you're like, oh, they're little babies. Is there anything you wish, like before you told your mum and everyone? Yeah. Is there anything you wish you could have gone back and told that version of you that felt so alone, that felt that whole fucker fucked it? Yeah, you know, it's weird because I don't know if there's anything I could have told her to convince her. Yeah. You know, because even like there was people around me that would say things to me. I think even like when my mom was like telling family members and she told her brother that I was pregnant and his daughters weren't that old at the time.

28:15I think they were like maybe toddler and baby kind of age. And his reaction was, well, you know, OK, the timing isn't perfect, but this is going to be like the most amazing thing ever. Because he had waited a long time to have a family. And she was telling me what he said. And I was like, well, it's OK for him, isn't it? Like, do you know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Him and his house, married, with a job. so I wasn't even you know what I mean saying this lovely thing and it still wasn't like penetrating my head at all I was like I was like staying home you know or like I'd hear little things from people like you know kind words or whatever and I was like I was so in the trenches I was just like yeah well I bet it did work out for them or I'd hear stories of other people who had had you know unplanned pregnancy as a teenager and she's now doing this I'm like oh is she well that's great for her because I'm in the shits.

29:15So, yeah. What was the moment where you kind of realised that actually this wasn't something that you could keep to yourself that you did actually have to start telling people? Yeah, I think probably I was, I was, I was very close to my mum, you see. And I did feel like, I was kind of like an alien, just like walking around the place. Like, you know, I was just, I was on autopilot. Yeah. And I physically, I think I had tried a couple of times and I just, I couldn't say it. I could not say it to my mum at all. And at the time, my dad's mum was dying. So they were out, I would say, every evening in the hospital with her.

30:01So it was kind of, there was chaos even before. I had dropped my own bit of chaos on the house as well. so I wrote her a letter and I left the letter for her on the kitchen table telling her I was pregnant but basically as well like another part of it was I was having to tell my mum that I wasn't a virgin you see or not even that I wasn't a virgin that I'd had sex like that was like oh god how do I even you know so I was kind of really trying to create this like fantasy it's like oh god I kind of slipped and fell and oh God, you know, here we are. Because I was so embarrassed to say. Because I had no idea that it was okay to be a sexual being.

30:46You said that your mum still has this letter but that you cannot bring yourself to look at it. Because I think it would just be, I think I'd be back there. I'd realise how demented this young girl had herself in the head. But it's that crisis point, isn't it? kind of just trying to work your way through the situation. Yes. And you're not even, I don't think I was even in the letter. I don't think, I'd hope now if something happened, I would, you know, at least be able to say to people in my life, like, this is what happened, can you help me? I need help with this. I can't do this on my own. But I didn't even have that language.

31:31because I think, see, I was like, when you're a child, I think if you come from a lovely supportive family, you don't ask for help, really. It's just there. It's there. You don't need to articulate to anyone that you need help. And I didn't want to seem either like kind of, you know, weak and vulnerable and strong because when you're a teenager, your whole persona is like, I know, I know. Yeah, I know that, obviously, whatever. so I'm still in that kind of mode so even in the letter I'm not saying man this is happening I need your help I don't know what to do I'm not even saying that I'm kind of trying to make excuses of why it's happening and I'm trying to say yeah but it's like whatever don't worry about it because I'm going to get it sorted it'll be fine it'll be done and we'll never speak about it again you know I'm trying to kind of do all this kind of thing in the letter and left the letter How did it feel when you left the house because then you you wrote the letter left it there went to all this house I can't like What was that like sitting there kind of going at some point she's going to read it?

32:34Yes. I think I went into my friend Orla's house. I was like on edge. Because she, I haven't told Orla. God love Orla. Put so much on this girl. I was still nowhere near her. I was still friends with her. I was using her house as a hideout a lot. Do you know what I mean? Like just the chaos. But I called in and she's like, hey. So it's just real relaxed. She's just kind of opening the door. She's inside watching TV. It's just kind of, you know, a very natural thing. And I'm there chewing my own hand, looking out her window. And yeah, yeah, I'm fine. How are you doing much today? She's like, nah, just watching the telly.

33:13And I'm hyper because I know my mum is going to know that I've left the house. It's not like I, you know, she's going to know I left the house. And I think in my head, there's a chance that she's going to come look in here. But probably I went there because I knew she'd come. You know, if I really didn't, if I was really going to run away or something, I would have gone. I would have gone. And she she came over. So still, I had no idea what was going on. And my mom was at the door. I came out and she just said to me, she said, come home when you're ready. And I could see that she was upset, but she was fine.

33:50And she just gave me a big hug and I could feel her big hug. and I let my shoulders drop a little bit, but I still didn't let them drop fully because if I'd let them drop fully, I would have just exploded. Because even when I was growing up, I was always quite tactile with my mum. So I had been avoiding her for these months because I knew that she would know that something is wrong with me. So I hadn't been hugging her. I hadn't been making eye contact with her. Do you know what I mean? I had just been like shifting around the gaff with my hands in my pockets just you know and I think she just said okay you know she's at that age now she's nearly finished school it could be something going on with friends you know but she knew maybe something was going on but I knew if she hugged me she'd know I knew that she would know that there was something wrong so I couldn't have any physical contact with her so I let them drop a little bit like just kind of into her hug and I felt that then I knew then that's all she had to say and I just knew by her hug that she was going to mind me and protect me.

34:56But I had to wait. And then obviously you see Loris, or Oila, is standing there with her mum. And the two of them are just like, what is going on here? Do you know what I mean? But if you don't. Because there's no real words going on. Do you know what I mean? There's just like this moment happening and they're just like, what's the gay? So yeah, I had a big hug with her. And then I stayed in the house for a little while and then I went over. because I knew as well, you see, the other part was there would be action then. I knew we weren't all just going to chill out and go, well, let's just wait and see what happens.

35:32I knew they were going to go into action mode and start doing stuff. And that's what happened. Like the doctor was called, the school was called. And, you know, like that thing, if you're in a crisis, you're trying to figure out, OK, what can we do? What are the things now that we need to do? I loved your dad's reaction. Oh, he's such a cutie, yeah. And he's been the only girl, I think, as well. And I would have grown up with a dad that would have been very much like, you know, Close the door! Who's the door? You know, one of those kind of dads. Just barking at you, Fernandine. Yeah, loud and chaotic and whatever.

36:09But they're very soft and very funny as well. But I heard my mum on the phone saying to my dad, you know, Emma's pregnant. Had you talked about her phoning him? No. I think she kind of said I'm going to phone your dad or whatever and she's like Emma's pregnant and he just goes well I quite like the idea of being a granddad but as well you see what I mean that did now make me go okay my daddy still loves me I'm still daddy's best girl you know because I'm a pure daddy's girl and that has been replaced obviously now my daughter Ella he messages her to go for coffee they meet up at least once a week and go for their own little coffees and stuff and I'm just like, okay, enjoy Did going to the doctors make it all feel more real?

36:58Yeah and I still hadn't let the I still hadn't let the garage down at all And your mum and dad didn't go in with you I found that so to kind of take that responsibility and kind of go, no, that actually or just the weight of that visit on you Yes, I think I had gone with them got to the doctors and I said I want to go in on my own. And they said, OK, you know, that's fine. And I went in on my own. But I think I knew that I was near enough having a bit of a wobble then at that point. And I think I was like, I want to just try. I wanted to try and be strong for myself, maybe. Or maybe kind of a thing of I'm not ready to fully let go of.

37:47I'm surrendering to your help. Yeah. You know, I was still kind of like, I don't, you know. But then to hear the heartbeat, gone. Really? Yeah, gone. And that was it then. Then I knew. I was like, oh, I'm out. Because at that age, you don't know what's going to happen in that appointment. No. No idea. Did you know there was a possibility of hearing the heartbeat? Anything like that? Oh, no idea. I didn't know what an appointment, I didn't know what that kind of appointment involved. Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of going into that going, am I going to be legs akimbo? Because anytime you watch anyone go into any appointment when they're pregnant, it's constantly in a gown, legs everywhere.

38:29So I'm like, oh my God, my doctor's going to find out I have ginger pubes. I'm just like, I don't know what's going to happen.

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40:01You also say about the fact that actually you hiding your belly, at that point, your tummy's hard. Yes. You actually have a significant bump. Your body has changed. Yes. And you'd kept that so hidden and actually even showing the doctor that. Yeah. Yes. But I remember I was, I had a shower in the house and I came downstairs to her I threw a towel around me and I said to her I've seen a stretch mark I've seen a stretch mark devastated because this is an ear of low slung jeans and everyone getting their belly button pierced you know and tribal tattoos on your stomach and like the stomach was the main character like I said what am I going to do and she's like you know it's fine it's fine don't worry about it like it's fine and she just it'll fade it'll fade and she kept saying this thing to me she was like six weeks six weeks after you have a baby you'll be back you'll be back to yourself and she kept saying to me you're so young you're going to snap don't you worry your body this is what your body's designed to do she really she's like a drill sergeant she'll be really she'll be putting these things getting those thoughts out of your head these are the thoughts that you need you think of you and your healthy baby and sitting there with your baby that's the prize at the end and your body's designed to do this and your youth is going to be massively on your side she's like six weeks after you have your baby you won't know yourself I'm telling you now that's how it works the human body's an amazing thing six weeks after my daughter's born I go down to her pull on my toe well don't want to tell me about this and it don't look the same to me and she's like okay well some of it goes back after six weeks During the whole pregnancy you are still going to school as well?

41:41Still going to school Still going to school Your mum adjusts you're like she adds a little bit of elastic into her school skirt Yeah to keep her going Yeah So it was yeah the skirt she kind of yeah had added an extra bit so I could wear the skirt for a bit longer Because those skirts are like they are basically if you've gone to like a conference school, the uniform is made out of cardboard in shame. But very forgiving for a pregnancy, I will say. The way those pleats just sit, you wouldn't know. It's like they knew. Anyway, so I wore that for as long as possible. But I was going in. Yeah, I was going into school every day and then I would go home for lunch, you know, because there's only like a walk down the road.

42:21And then that kind of started to get a bit much. and just, you know, you get big. You think when you're at six months, you're like, God, I'm massive. You don't even realise that that's only the start of you've just popped now and you're going to even you forget, like, don't you? Like you just get bigger and bigger and bigger. So I started, I think, not going home at lunch because also what happened was one day I was coming back after lunch. The teacher was calling out the role. And I got in while she was calling it. And she was like, and I'm like, seven months pregnant or something. She's like, Emma, you're going to have to sign in.

43:01You're late. I was like, gosh. So I had to go to the office and sign in. And I got real upset. You know, you're so fragile. And one of the teachers said to me, what's everything okay with? What's going on? I was like, oh, Miss So-and-so said I was late so I have to sign in. And she looked at me, she's like, that fucking idiot. I was like, delighted. It was one of the kindest things anyone ever said to me during my pregnancy. Someone showing you kindness. Yes. Because obviously you've got your family who are super supportive, but then there's the whole, and your brothers. Yes. I'd love to know their reactions and stuff.

43:38But then you've got the whole, you've got people outside of your circle. Oh, yes. You know. So nice. Yeah. So kind. And that's really the thing that, that's one of the things that was actually so beautiful about the experience. I know that sounds real I'm a hippy dippy going living in Ireland but it really was because you'd have these people like say one of the teachers teacher Miss Heiney right who was a teacher of mine and she had a gaggle of kids so you're just like she's a teacher with a load of kids but she kind of said to me she's like now if you need any if you need any backup or if you need any childcare while you're doing your exams you know I've been more than happy to have you then there was a maths teacher older man he got in touch with me via one of my friends it was like oh if you need extra notes and stuff and you know teachers came to visit there was this woman who I'd see her around right and I'd known her before but she was like when I was pregnant and then when I had my daughter she was so into me right like she was so nice to the point of I was like is she patronising me or Do you know what I mean?

44:48Is she worried about me? And I was kind of starting to get paranoid. Yeah. I only found out, like, in recent years, she's since passed away, but she had had a baby when she was young that she had to give up for adoption. I was like, oh, my God. Isn't that so sad? And that's why she was being so, so nice to me. And I was like, oh, you know. Seeing someone and almost wishing that she had had the kindness that she could give. And she could not be kind enough to me. Emma, how did you feel heading towards the birth? Because at that point, do you kind of understand? You know, it's a big old thing. Yeah, but it's the same as I think any birth in the sense by the time you get to that point, aren't you ready for it?

45:38Yeah. You're kind of like, OK, I want this to go now. So as the pregnancy went on, you see, I mean, definitely hearing the heartbeat, It was the part of, it was the start of me definitely being able to connect with my daughter. So then as the pregnancy went on, I felt, you know, the privacy of my own home then. I wouldn't be in school going, oh, she just kicked. I was kind of still very secretive about all that. But I'd be showing my mum, we'd be feeling, we'd be laughing and, you know, and then you'd have other mums like, oh, what am I going to do? And then you'd be like, oh, she's moving. Oh, she's going to be a footballer.

46:15Ha ha. You know, all this. The light and shade of it. Yeah, totally. On a day to day basis. Yeah. You'd be just like you'd be saying you'd be laughing about something about the bumper. You'd be saying I wouldn't be funny if she was like this or whatever. Oh, she's really she's really out in front today. And then the next minute you'd be kind of you'd be crying. What am I going to do? Or like my big thing was I didn't want to have to repeat my exams and kind of be a woman then doing these kind of school exams. I was like, I have to move on. I have to move on from this period of my life, at least just psychologically.

46:47But by the time, yeah, by the time the birth came, I feel like I was pretty good. And you see, my mom is, I say this like my mom was a nurse. But it's like if your mom was a nurse, you start to believe that you were a nurse because you take all this information. So I was saying to people like, oh, no, like drink water. You have to elongate yourself. Like, you know what that is? I think that's that. And, you know, it may be too much dairy. You know, I think I actually am a nurse now. But she was very, she's very, she would be very much like the power of your body and as a woman and what you are capable of.

47:22So she would not be somebody that would want another woman to be scared of childbirth. And I think it had annoyed her. I think she had kind of felt that childbirth in recent times had been too heavily medicated when it didn't need to be. that there was interference when if people had been given the confidence that maybe, obviously if somebody needs medical attention, they need medical attention. But like she didn't, she would never want any woman to go into childbirth feeling afraid if there wasn't, you know, an actual reason for feeling afraid. So she really coached me. She was like, pick a spot on the wall.

48:04I love it, the list, the things that your birth plan. Keep your eyes open, yeah. I've never heard the keep your eyes open during contractions thing. I found that fascinating. Her theory was that if you close your eyes, you've internalised the pain. So keep your eyes open and keep your breathing. And every time you're breathing out, you're blowing out the pain, which is just hippy-dippy, like, you know, that you train your brain. But it is also probably... This is what you're doing. Yeah, and I would imagine it actually leans on hypnoperthing in some way as well. Yeah, probably. It's all links.

48:39It's just that hypnobirthing has a name now. But it's all linked. Things that help you concentrate on your breath. So I'm doing all that. So I picked like a tile on the ceiling and I'm looking at that and she was like, move during your labour. That'll help. With gravity, didn't move an inch, stayed in the bed the whole time. Because you're a teenage girl and your mum's telling you to do something. Whatever. Stand up and walk around. You know what I mean? No. Go for a walk. What teenager goes for a walk? If I'm going somewhere, I'm going to the shop, I'm going to my friend's house. I'm not going for a walk just to go for a walk.

49:08No, thank you. I have to have a destination. So I didn't walk, but I kind of did everything else. And yeah, she was there the whole time. I think she left at one point to have a quick smoke, came back. And the midwife, there was like this big thing where the midwife took her place while she went. Like you literally just go to the toilet. Yeah. Her hand. And then her hand came back into, like the midwife's hand was eased out. And then my mom's, there was no point that my hand was bare. You know what I mean? And I was like, oh, yeah, that feels better. I was like, yeah, that hand's better. And, yeah, but I mean, you just, you have no idea how.

49:46You don't, you know? No, you don't. I still know what that feels like. Yeah. The intensity of that. It goes beyond pain, I think. It's something else, isn't it? Yeah, it's really hard. Yeah, the pain thing is just a feeling that you have never experienced. Never. That feeling of something shooting out your fanny. It's just like, it's almost like an earthquake in your body. Yeah, it's like an earthquake in your body. Yeah. It's like a roar or something. It's not just, it's just roar. It's just like really pressure. Pressure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, pressure on that. That weight and that heaviness and the fact that actually I found that a lot of it, your body kind of does take control of that.

50:45Yeah, your body. That's what she kept saying to me. She said at a certain point, she was like, don't worry, your body will actually take over. Yeah. She's like, your body will know what to do. Which is also phenomenal when you think all we're ever told about is push, push. Yes. And actually maybe we don't need someone shouting push at us all the time. Yeah, I know. Yeah, just wait. Yeah. Wait. So she really coached me very well. So by the time, I really feel like she gave me that gift, you know, that kind of made me believe that I was strong enough to do that. Yeah. So by the time, like, didn't let any ounce of fear.

51:24Now she said it was the most horrific thing to watch your child, your labour. She said, oh, my God. I mean, I obviously didn't think about that at the time. But she was like, it's, oh my God, she's like, I'm in bits, in bits. But it made me, after then when my daughter was born, I felt so confident then. Really? Yeah, I felt fantastic. I felt so strong and powerful. I felt really good about myself. Yeah. After. Seeing what your body had done. I was like, oh, you know, I had a bit of like, I'm great. I actually, and I remember my friends came in to see me in the hospital and I was like slinging her over my shoulder and like, you know, because when you have the baby, when I'd see newborn babies, you'd be like, oh my God, they're tiny.

52:17When you see your own newborn baby, you're like, oh my God, she's huge. She's huge. Massive. Like they look huge. They don't look tiny to you at all. I remember I looking at her head. What's wrong? Oh, what's wrong with her head? What is wrong with her head? She's got a big plum on her head. and my mum was like no she's thinking it's fine that'll go down it's just from the portion just put a hat on that's why they're all wearing hats not just their coals because their heads are all squished but I didn't know that I didn't know about the squishy heads or whatever that they looked beaten up you know what was it like meeting Ella for the first time?

52:52oh it was amazing when I think of it now like yeah she looked massive and well it was crazy and I could it was I remember then when she was born it was like the smell I was like the smell the smell and every so often like I'll still get the waft of that smell or sometimes I'll have to go around I have to smell my children's head because I feel like that's where the core of their smell is like let me sniff your head yeah I knew her straight away it was really it was I was so lucky that I it happened to me that way yeah And I think, I do think maybe with everything that was going on, you know, that was just a little golden nugget from the universe.

53:41Kind of like, oh, we'll just give her this now just to help her along the way. So I felt, yeah, I felt I knew her straight away. She had like the red hair. So when she was like, you know, I suppose probably would have been like nine centimetres. and the midwife said to me oh she's a redhead wonder where she gets that from and in my head I said she's looking like my ginger pubes anyway do you know this is what I'm thinking I'm still a bit even in labour I'm still a bit scarlet but she after she was born then I felt like in the hospital as well they were all kind of delighted for me but one of the midwives on the ward then because she was born with loads of hair she's like oh look at her with all her hair and she whipped her up and kind of took her off to show a few other people I can wait to see her hair and I remember sitting there being like proud as punch going yeah she's lovely isn't she like I was thinking oh she's so gorgeous she's after take her off to show her to other people So it's a nice feeling Yeah I'm sure she's doing that all the time I'm sure the rest of the midwives are going would she ever do a tap of work whipping up babies and doing that routine but I loved it I loved it I fell for a hotline in Zink I was like yeah What was it like leaving the hospital?

54:51Oh my gosh So scary Really? Yeah that's going to get scary because also that's when your old like your new world meets your old world and that's when reality hits for every mum it's so scary because you're in the bubble yeah and like I remember I was like one of the things I was adamant about doing before I left and you know we all pick our thing to be have anxiety I remember I took one in the Midwest and was like show me how to give her a bath I was like I'm not going home without knowing how to give her a bath by myself. But giving a newborn a bath freaked me out, kind of. I was like, how do you do that?

55:29Yeah. And no, she did show me and I was like, oh, the water is warmer than I would have thought and whatever. And I was like, OK, I've got that down. Perfect. So then it was time to go home and, oh. I started to fall apart. Really? Yeah. I just wanted to sleep. I wanted to sleep every opportunity I got. And then, of course, there's people calling into you. Yeah. Calling into the house. and I remember my mum came up and I was upstairs at Ella and I was asleep and she's like oh so and so is here to see you and I remember like why would you wake me up why would you wake me up so it was a bit of that but then we did have to close the door because it was kind of like well she's going to start the exams now but you know the way there'd be some people very close that would be gutting to kind of get in there the second you'd be getting home from hospital so I did find that quite hard and then I remember when I was hit with the three day blues.

56:27Really? Yeah. My auntie came over, my dad's sister, and she was holding Ella. So her mother, my granny, had just died while I was pregnant. She looks very like her. Yeah. But I had never had any children. So I was sitting there watching Mary hold the baby. I don't know if I'd seen her hold the baby because I'm the youngest in that family. And she looks exactly like her mother. And I'm looking at her and I'm just going, what is going on? It was just like, this is, this makes no sense. Her, my granny's dead. She's holding a newborn baby. And wait for it. That baby's yours. Like there was a voice in my head going, you realise that baby's yours, don't you?

57:17You realise what's going on here. It was like it suddenly dawned on me. Yeah. Oh, everything's changed. What's happening? And I remember going, I'm just going to go to the bathroom. I went off for a cry because I was just like, my head couldn't keep up with all of the changes. Those emotions in the early days, it's just, it's so bewildering. Yeah. I was literally like, I was sitting there and then all of a sudden I was just like, where am I? What's happening? Yeah. I was like, it was so weird. It was real. I felt like I had no idea what was happening. And then you do have a moment where you go, oh, no, you get a panic of like, is my brain broken now?

58:02Oh, my crazy. Yeah, because I'm just I started to think, oh, I'm crazy. But I I think I said to my mom or something like that. And she was like, no, it's it's like it's your emotion. I don't go easy on yourself. Like, don't worry. She's like, there has to be a rebalancing of everything after all of that. And I was kind of like, OK, OK. And then it did. Yeah, it passed. And then basically what I did was that summer. So say Ella's born in May that summer. I basically got out with her in her little buggy as much as I could. And there was never more bread and milk bought in the whole of the country.

58:53Well, that's me off out again with the buggy and getting the milk and the bread. Anyone want the bread? It's like, we're actually loads here. I'll go to the shop and get the milk and the bread. Off I go. But also the amazing thing of, you know, you are at home so you still have your mum and dad there for support. but actually they're back at work now doing their thing and this is very much you. Like your mum was really conscious in the fact that she's not taking over, she's not leading this. You're the mum and Ella is your baby. Yeah, because the first time they left the house then, I think it was the weekend, they were like, we're going off to the shops.

59:30We've got bread and milk. Yeah, we're fully stocked. And they're like, we're going. And I was like, what? I really got a shock. Really? Yeah, yeah, I got a shock. I was like, well. But I think they were doing it like, no, we just leave her now and go. I'm sure they just sat somewhere and just stared at a wall. Do you know what I mean? I'm sure they did absolutely nothing. But I was like, oh, OK. Yeah, no, that's fine. Yeah, fine with me. But I think, yeah, I think my mom was probably kind of, well, they probably were like, we need to get out of the house. But they're like, she needs to be, give her a little space on her own now so that she knows she can be on her own.

1:00:09And so, yeah, and then the first time they went, I was like, OK. But then after that, it was fine. You know, but she was right too. She was very mindful of that. I am grateful for that, that she was very mindful about it. How did things compare 10 years later when you then get pregnant with your sons? Oh, easy peasy. Really? Well, by that point, you have the joy of going into that. Yes. Having all of that knowledge. you've all had the knowledge you've done so much but then also there is the part of it going ooh I'm a bit rusty and you do think as well I think they said that your body forgets after 10 years oh so your body was a beginner again yeah so you're not getting that like usually your second labour is quicker or any of that and then I did have because I mean it'd be silly to have no anxieties but I did have worries then of am I going to love this baby the same?

1:01:10Because me and Ella had been so close and so intense. I worried about her. But then also, am I going to be as close to this baby? Are they going to feel that? I'm also then having a baby with somebody. So I'm like, it's his relationship. Are our relationship going to change now? Because I never had to. That's it. I mean, that is a huge thing that I did not have to worry about when I had Ella. I didn't have a relationship to keep going. And I didn't realise at the time that that was kind of a blessing in disguise in a way at such a young age to not have to have that as well. But now, yes, I had a partner.

1:01:48So I'm thinking about how is it going to change our relationship? Are they prepared for that? Yeah. Also, is their relationship with Ella now going to change? Because now they're going to have a child who is biologically their child. is she gonna feel is Ella gonna feel that yeah so I was I suppose it was that thing of like becoming a blended family did you talk about all of this as well did you find it easier to to kind of sit down and kind of go these are the things I'm I'm fearful of or worried about and get that reassurance no because I'm Irish so I wouldn't have talked about any of this I've never done therapy so no we wouldn't have talked about that I would have just got around and gone I'm grand I'm grand there's nothing wrong with me like that no but how long had your partner been in Ella's life?

1:02:44so he had met her when she was like four or five right so a long time quite a while you know what I mean and we were like a proper little family and they and you see what I wasn't kind of allowing for is like they had their own relationship already Already that was, you know, because when we first got together, I was very worried about, oh, how is that going to pan out? And I'm going to be splitting my time between Ella and him. And like I'm kind of like I said, I'm going to have to be everything to everybody and all this. And then the dynamic turned out that the two of them just like slagged me because they were like, we both had the same specialist topic.

1:03:27What is that? Me. Yeah. so they just had all he had info on me and she had info and they're like have you ever noticed the way she does this you know so I had two people that had been watching me for years go see what she does this and does that like so I had two people just gagging up on me so I was like I'll be so in demand and I wasn't but yeah I just was I think like the blended family thing is probably yeah you have you have those worries I certainly did anyway about how is that all going to happen and is am I going to feel am I going to feel differently being a mother this time around I'm not going to have as much time I'm not going to have as much time now for Ella she's had 10 years of my undivided attention what was her reaction to you getting pregnant oh she broke into tears because she was delighted because she was so excited yeah so I was like oh she loved it and like I mean as proud as punch like yeah Yes, my little brother.

1:04:30You know what I mean? Like, I don't remember going through her sports day because he was born in May as well. So I'd go to her sports day with him and for all these gang of girls coming running over to the boogies. She's like, it's my brother. It's my brother. You know, whipping him out. Yeah, it's my brother. I think she was old enough to understand how it would, the changes that would happen in her life, but not to the extent of it was too difficult or you know what I mean. At the same time as well, I hope that she didn't feel, you know, I might have been saying to her, oh, will you run upstairs and get me a nappy or, you know, that kind of sibling stuff.

1:05:09But it's not like she was old enough that she'd be like minding a baby or babysitting or, you know what I mean? Yeah. So. She was still very much a child. Yeah. She was still a child. So it's funny because the two of them now are so similar. but the things that I don't have in common with them. Really? Yes, it's kind of like, oh, where did all this come from? So, yeah, it's funny how it all, it does all blend together, like. Yeah. You know? Yeah. If you could write a letter on motherhood, who would it be to and what would you say? I think, yes, I was thinking about that. I think I would write it to my own mum.

1:05:51And I think I would just, I would thank her. and let her know. I'm kind of like, as I say it now and thinking about it, I'm like, maybe I should just do that. Like, why don't you just do that for her? You can. Just tell us what you're going to say first. After this, just call her. She deserves a nice letter now. And just tell her, like, the nice little things I remember. You know, the little things, because sometimes you do remember the things like, you know, there was the day when I was off early from school and she forgot to collect me and I wandered around the town because back then you just went out the gate and no one checked.

1:06:28And I was like, oh, hi, I've been out here just mooting around the shops. I was like, what? But I think I'd write her a letter on what a great man she was, you know. And yeah, I think I'd write her a letter just to let her know because sometimes I am aware that I, you know, take her for granted. but that is not a sign of a good mum yeah that you take them for granted yeah you know you kind of you do they're just solid and always there yeah yeah that is it's kind of it kind of is the thankless job if you're eternally grateful for your mother you're not because you're just so used to her loving you and doing stuff for you that you just kind of take it for granted you know she has me I'm her baby I'm a teenager I bring this total shit storm into her house it's all chaotic it's all you know there's nights of crying she's my counsellor my confidant do you know what I mean I'm leaning on her leaning on her leaning on her and I'm like yes I've met someone I'm gone bye thanks for everything hope everything works out for you I'm grand now bye I don't I actually don't need you anymore okay bye she's like what but the chats and the tea and the late nights no when you forget how much she would be getting out of all of that as well yeah like I'm sharing so much at her.

1:07:52I'm talking to her non-stop. I'm showing her my stretch mask. I'm like, what's going on with this? What's going on with that? Why is my body doing this? Why is Ella's body doing that? Do I have to go to the doctor? What's this rash? I mean, every time I had an itch or a scratch, they're pulling down my trousers going, what do you think of this? Did you lean on her as much with the younger two? No. You see, not at all. Because I was, and there wasn't the same dynamic because I was out on my own. You know, she wasn't not those births. Yeah. And didn't want to be. Yeah. And was delighted for me that my partner was there instead of her.

1:08:29Yeah. But it's, you know, it's a different thing. Yeah. I'd kind of just say bye. It's kind of awful what we do to mums, isn't it? It is terrible. Yeah. I'm going to call my mum. We end the podcast with you completing three sentences. Okay. I'll try and do these now. Okay. The first one is being a mum means? Oh, everything. because it's all encompassing and it's not always amazing. Yeah. Since having children, I...

1:09:00See, this is really hard. I didn't know what to say because I've never experienced adulthood without being a mum. So I can't say I'm an adult. You know, since becoming a mum, I'm an adult. Because I just was like, I'm an adult now. You were 18 and you had a baby. Yeah. So adulthood to me, you see, is all wrapped up with being a mum. Yeah. So there's only like child me and mum me. Oh, that's wild. I know. So I was like, I don't know what to say. And also the fact that it's 18, like that is adulthood. Yeah. I had two months there where I went hell for leather and I just. You did it really well. Yeah.

1:09:41Okay. You really went hell to leather. You really, you put your rule in. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And you got a beautiful daughter at the end of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. And the final sentence is, I'm happy when? I'm happy when everyone is happy. That's like the reality of it, isn't it? I'm also my own happiness. Like my own happiness included into that. But if everyone else is happy, that's going to make up a lot of my own happiness. Yeah. So, yeah, it's dependent on other people, actually. god well 20 % of it's mine I'll say 20 % of it's my own but yeah Emma thank you so much thanks so much I'm really excited about the tour and I've absolutely loved reading Mad isn't it as well I think it's a fantastic book I can't believe you read it thank you so much I did

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