Davina McCall on motherhood, finding love again, and recovering from brain surgery

0:00Right, should we get cracking then? Is that what you're saying? Okay, everyone, everything sound good to you? I'm so excited. Okay, all right. Oh, my God.

0:13Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today we have a returning guest. She's a TV presenter. She's a podcast host. She's an author. She is a fucking amazing human. She's got three kids. It's Davina McCoy. I'm so excited to be a returning guest. Well, but you came on in series... You opened series two back in 2018. Yeah, isn't that mad? It's incredible. And then we did the Disney podcast together in which we just cried the entire time and held hands on a Disney... I love it. We came and we spoke about motherhood. There were tears, but, you know, it was fine.

0:53We were separated. We talked about Disney and we had to hold hands. We were in bits. I mean, like, it's so funny because when I do karaoke, I always want to be Mariah Carey. But I am just a musical theatre singer. That is my strength. And obviously all the songs that I know are Disney. What's your go-to karaoke song? Colours of the Wind. OK. Yeah. A little bit of Poe Conte. Just around the river bend. It's been a while since I sang to me. Wow! I mean, don't even get me started because I could be serenading you and we haven't got long. We haven't. We haven't. We've got to get sloppy. Because it's publication day for you.

1:36Yes, it's really exciting, actually. So this is going out next Tuesday. We're filming this on Thursday. But you've got a brand new book out. Yes. Birthing. Yes. I mean, I guess let's go back first. Before we dive into that, simply because what you did for menopause was mahoosive. Absolutely massive. And I know it's that thing of, you know, doing this podcast, you always meet different guests from different generations who sort of start going, just no one was talking about it. No one was talking about birth in that way. No, I didn't know this. I didn't know that. I feel like menopause has been that thing always.

2:12Always. No one talks about it. And weirdly, you know, it still has a hangover of that now. Like we still have work to do, all of us, to stop the shame and the embarrassment about menopause because it's actually a fantastic time of our lives, but we've just got to navigate perimenopause to get somewhere fantastic. Yeah. But the amount of guy friends I have that say to me, I watched Davina's documentary, or what she's doing for, it's got me understanding things that are happening and what I can do to help or just be aware of, to take the pressure off in some way. I met a 60-year-old man after the documentary had gone out and he was actually delivering something and I opened the door and he went, it's you.

3:01And he had a little cry. And I was like, mate, are you OK? And he went, I saw your documentary the other night. And I said, oh, like what happened? And he said, I thought my wife didn't love me anymore. And I was like, but what now? And he said, we talked about it. And he said, it's changed my life. He said, I realise she does love me. She really needs my help. And I was like, mate, this is amazing news. And I thought, well, my God, if it's reaching out that far and helping men understand perhaps that it wasn't about them, that it is just a physiological thing that happens to us women and we literally are powerless.

3:43And what to do in order to help or support is... Like, it was brilliant those few days after that went out to get kind of feedback from people. Yeah, it was magic. You must get that from your pod here. Like, you know, it's just two people sitting in a studio and you think, well, what difference is it going to make? But actually you must get people all the time contacting you going, you've made a difference to the type of birth that I had or the type of parent that I am. It's magic that. And I think when someone's going through the menopause, you know, from the different conversations that I've had, this sudden feeling within you, you not being, you're no longer you.

4:23Do you know what I mean? There's that feeling of loss of control or whatever those feelings are. And actually, I do liken it to early motherhood. Yes. When the same thing kind of occurs. And, you know, we know the leading cause of death in new mums is suicide. We know that. And I wonder if there's another correlation between women in menopause or perimenopause when there's that thing slipping away, that feeling of slipping. Do you know what's interesting is you just said something there and it is often the first symptom that a woman might come and tell me she has. And that is I can't quite put my finger on it, but I just don't feel myself.

5:06And I think I also felt that after I had a baby. Yeah. My first baby, I remember being fiercely and unapologetically ambitious before I had Holly. I loved work. I wanted to do well. I would never stand on someone's head to get somewhere. But I would get there an hour early. I would work twice as hard. I would do so much research. And I gave birth to Holly and I looked at her and I fell so in love. And I thought, oh, I never want to work again. Really? I just want to be with you. and then I was like and then I tried to talk to people about it and I said I quite want to stay at home like I don't want to go back to work and they were like yeah but you don't mean that you're Davina like you don't mean and nobody could quite handle that idea also there is that isn't there the fact that you're Davina and the fact that you bring joy like at that point as well you know doing Big Brother doing these shows that bring us that give us so much.

6:17So it's that thing of, no, no, no, you can't do that because actually what would we do? And also I think because it looks like I enjoy my job so much, which I do. But it's hard work. You make some of this hard work look really easy. But it's still really good fun. Yeah. That they can't really believe that I really mean it. Yeah. No, you're Davina, you're very ambitious. You want to go back. Like, we know you. And I was like, I found it quite hard to share with people because I thought I was that person. So who am I now? Where have I gone? Yeah. And I disappeared for a bit. But I went back to work because I had to.

6:57I had to make money because I had a life, you know, that I had to pay for, mortgage and responsibilities. So I went to work because I had to. And I did actually love my work. And I ended up, I was very, very lucky. I could do a four-day week. Yeah. so I could have three days at home with the kids. But it was challenging kind of trying to come to terms with I do really understand that where have I gone thing. Yeah. But then life seems to not fall into place a little bit. You kind of grapple with it a little bit and juggle and you find your way and then perimenopause starts. Yeah. Usually at a point where your kids need you less and then you go through another identity crisis or an internal crisis.

7:41that you just feel so lost within. I mean, hysterically, often it's when your kids become teenagers. Yeah. And as a perimenopausal woman, often you kind of become like a teenager as well. You know, emotional, angry, the rage. We've talked about that quite a lot, like in the perimenopausal journey. It's not everybody gets it. Yeah. But it's kind of a 0 to 60 juggernaut of a thing where somebody who's not a rageful, I'm such a pacifist, but I remember asking the kids nicely to get in the car to go to school two or three times, and then the third time it was like shouting, swearing, and they all look at you like, who is that?

8:31And we all get in the car, and I see them all quiet but a bit nervous, and then I burst into tears and I think, who was that? I don't even recognise this person. And I just thought, as many women do, I'm too young. I can't be perimenopausal. I was 43. I'm way too young and attractive. You know when you think, no, but you know when you think... You have an idea of what they look like. A very menopausal woman is like grey hair, knitting needles and sort of, I don't know, like retired and sitting. I just had no, I knew nothing. But the difficult thing about that situation is you would carry so much shame and embarrassment.

9:17You allowed yourself to go, which so many mums, I have to believe that so many mums get to that place. Just to alleviate everything that I then carry and, you know, put on myself. I have to believe that so many of us get to that point and feel so lost and don't know where to turn. So it's amazing that you opened up the conversation. Oh, thank you. Good. I mean, I did it as much for me as for anybody else. I managed to find some experts and just try and amplify them. I mean, you and I are similar. We are amplifiers. We get people on who know their shizzle. And we go, let's get you to tell your story to everybody.

9:58this is why I love being a woman because if you tell 10 women something you've got 10 listeners those 10 listeners will go to a dinner party a girls evening in three nights time and they will tell another 10 they will go and tell another 10 two days later it's unbelievable the network that we have as women it's so powerful absolutely I can remember because I also listened back to our episode from 2018 Oh, wow. And you just, it was even clear back then how much you just wanted to empower women to go through different stages. And actually, you talked so clearly about wanting to empower women through birth, not just birth, but through pregnancy and, you know, taking out all that fear and just kind of passing on strength to women.

10:50And I think, so for me, it's not that surprising, actually, that you've gone from menopause to kind of go, I want to empower more people and that you've gone into birthing. And this book, it's like a beautiful encyclopedia of everything. And it's gorgeous. And you've joined up with Midwath Marley, who's incredible. I love her so much. She's brilliant. She's great, isn't she? Yeah. And, you know, I wanted to write this book when I had Chester. So, you know, when I spoke to you, I felt very strongly about birth and empowering women. But nobody back then would have let me write a book about birth because I wasn't known for that.

11:28I was presenting Big Brother. It was such a random. But it's also ridiculous because we've been with you for all your births. I know. Not like all your pregnancies. I've literally given birth practically with you, haven't I? Like every time. But in terms of like all the public figures who we've seen pregnant, who we somehow feel connected to their pregnancy, you are one of them. Yeah. Yeah, but it wasn't a thing back then. But the success of menopausing meant that somebody said, would you like to do another book? What would you like it to be about? My first words were birthing. I knew that this was the book I'd always wanted to write.

12:02It's just slightly gone the wrong way around. But it's been really nice being able to bring all the things that I've been planning this book for 15 years. you know so that's such a nice feeling yeah being able to get it all out and see it in print I mean the the bit that I love is the resources in the back for everything we've got resources for every eventuality in your birth I love the fact that we've got the five times more girls in there talking about black maternal health and it's been really nice to work with them we've got breathing in their pelvic health we've got a clinical psychologist who specializes in trauma birth trauma everything is covered my favorite book when I was I'm sure I told you about this the last time we spoke was spiritual midwifery by Ina May Gaskin so Ina May Gaskin was an amazing midwife in the 70s in in America and she used to go around in a van yeah and deliver women's babies and she did a book where she told people stories in terms of their births and every type of birth breach natural c-section lots of natural births she did sections for midwives so there was lots of medical information in there and she had this advice for mothers at the time of birth page and it was one of my favorite things I read it over and over and over again there was a brilliant bit which said because she said lots of things where you'd think what and she said keep your sense of humor it'll help you remember where you're at and I was thinking what in labor sense of humor what and she says because if you can't be a hero at least you can be funny whilst being a chicken

14:05I was like yeah that makes total sense to me right I thought how great is that and the other thing that she taught me was that as a pregnant woman in a room full of other people if I hadn't read this book I would have thought I'm the most important person in this room like it's all about me I'm the one in labour almost kind of expectant of attention you know and what she taught me in this book was that yes you are the bringer of life in this situation and this is a really exciting and powerful and beautiful place for you to be but everyone else in this room is really important and brings something else and they are all looking to you for strength and confidence and calmness so that taught me a lot about every situation in life yeah that the experts in the room feed from you as well they aren't just there to give you advice and support and midwifery expertise, you are also there to give to them, to empower them to do the best job that they can.

15:22So rather than me taking the whole way through all my labours, I also tried to gift during my labours. But often all I had was a please or a thank you or would it be all right to remember Remember to speak nicely to the people that are there for you because it's a stressful moment for them. Do you know what I mean? We're all in it together. It's a collective goal. And I didn't realize that until I read it in her book and what a beautiful thing that is. So I was really always thinking about gifting back to the midwife. Like, thank you so much. Thank you for being here. This is such an amazing experience.

16:09You know, and in turn, she would gift me. It was a beautiful synergy. Yeah. Great feeling. Everyone working together. Everybody working together, yeah. It was lovely. You had amazing births as well. Oh, my God. I mean, Pam Wilde was at all of my births. Really? So she delivered all my babies. She's not with us anymore, so I dedicated this book to Pam. And Caroline Flint, who's a mega, mega midwife, she's written loads of great books. she was at the first birth and Tilly came early so she she was actually away at another birth I think but she couldn't make the second one so Pam was the the kind of staple in the whole kind of all of my pregnancy and birth experiences but it was all of them were great experiences for different reasons you know I laughed in some of them a lot I mean the in the loss of kind of dignity is hilarious.

17:06It's funny, isn't it? I can remember watching things like One Boy Every Minute and seeing episodes where people are deciding what to wear or someone's made a nice little bikini for the occasion and then you just see the realities of it and it's like, strip it off. And it's definitely that. I think I went in thinking that I'd do one thing and then the realities of when you're in the moment, you don't care. Pooing, you don't care? Oh, pooing's the best. Do you know what I loved? Yeah. Because I had two huge fears. Right. Tearing. Yes. Three. Tearing, water's breaking in a supermarket, and pooing.

17:45So tearing, after my first birth, she was£8.12, Holly, so I had biggins. Yeah, yeah, yeah. £8.12,£9.11, and£10.02. Oh, my gosh. I literally closed my legs. Yeah. And by the third one, I was like a wizard's sleeve. Like he literally just popped out, no tear, nothing. I wonder if that's a common theme. I wonder if people tear less as they go on. Yeah. Because they've already been used. It makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was terrified of tearing. And when I first had Holly, I said, oh, my gosh, guys, I didn't tear. And they looked at me and went, yeah, you did. And I thought, oh, that was interesting.

18:21I've spent all nine months terrified of tearing. And I didn't even feel it. So you don't even know it's going to happen. And you can't feel it. It's not your, there's too much going on down there for you to realise. So I didn't need to worry about that. My water's breaking anywhere. My water's broke literally two seconds before any of the babies came out. So weird. I didn't even know that was a thing. I thought your water's breaking with the first sign. Well, did you ever see, look, he's talking. I thought it would be like that. Where she's stood on the corner of the street and the water's breaking.

18:50And it's everywhere. There's a gush. Yes. I never got to gush. I was terrified of that. I think as a famous person, I think that's what, I thought, please don't everybody look. coming home and going, you never guess what I just saw. I saw the insides of Davina coming out. Oh, my God. People were dying on that for years. Imagine. So there was that I was really worried about. And then what was my third one? Pooing. Pooing is your third one. Oh, pooing is the third one. So that was what was interesting. When I was giving birth to Holly, I got into, I couldn't give birth in the water. It had all slowed down too much.

19:26I was too relaxed. So I got out, I'd done a few walks up and down stairs, came back down to get into the swatting position between Matthew's knees. I was leaning down, bearing down on that. And I'd been pushing for a while, like every contraction, but nothing seemed to be happening. And Caroline looked at me and she said, we need to get this baby out in three contractions or I'm going to take you to hospital. and I was like, oh wow, okay, three contractions. She said, is there anything holding you back? I said, I'm a bit nervous of pooing, just I can tell. And I thought, isn't that amazing? She knew that she needed to have that chat with me and she just said to me, if you poo, I will be so delighted because I will know that you are doing the right thing.

20:18She said, just let go of that thought. She said, if you poo, you won't even see it. It'll be gone. She was absolutely right. I think I did. We both birthed three times. I've never seen my poo. Yeah, never seen it. Yeah. So they're just brilliant at spiriting it away. Yeah. Whether that's sieving it out of the water. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's so funny. My daughter really wanted to get in the water when I had Chester. And she came in in her school uniform, and I'd said they could have the day off school because the baby was coming. and then within, you know, half an hour she was in vest and pants and then she was in pants and I was like, Holly, I think I can see where this is going and I just want to let you know, I don't think it's a good idea for you to come in the water.

21:00I said, Mummy might do a poo. She was like, horrified. She was like, what? She was like, oh God, what? No way. So it's really funny. So she didn't get in the water after that. I guess that's the thing, right? So people have got to think of it as the baby's head is coming down and it's like a tube of toothpaste, right? It's got to move through that. Whatever's in the way, it's got to come out. You can't hold in one side and let the other side out. It doesn't work. It doesn't work like that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's funny, isn't it? Because I've been thinking quite a bit about surrogacy. Yeah. And I'd always thought, I can't imagine how somebody could be a surrogate and let go of that baby.

21:44Yeah. But I think if I'd have had my three earlier, if I'd have started in my 20s and finished at 33, I would have had a surrogate not for the money. But I loved carrying and delivering babies. I was, like I said at the end, I was just hoofing Chester out. Like, I was really good at this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I could do it. It was happening quickly. But to gift somebody a baby which you can make and maybe somebody else can't carry. And if it was like when it's somebody else's, it's not your baby. You're just a vessel. But I think if you hadn't had children already, it would be harder to do. But I could imagine myself doing that.

22:32I could see it. one thing I love about you is that you want to spread your joy and spread your love you know well I can remember you saying that you know we know that women have bad experiences and you were saying if you've had a bad experience come and talk to me yes come and talk to me I've had my children I've done my pregnancies and babies yeah and I and that really resonated with me because so often you know when we are put in a place of fear we can't birth our babies in and even actually So my third labour, it's not that I was, well, it wasn't that I was fearful, but I was holding it because my second child had fallen off a table and split his head open.

23:12And I knew that he'd gone to Royal Holloway to get the stitches sorted out. Basically, I'd gone into labour as we were at the hospital with him, waiting to see the doctor. And they'd put some butterfly stitches on, but they said, you have to come back. And I was like, I know that I am. I'm going to be here. So I got into bed with him that night. we'd called the grandparents over and I basically I I know that I was full of fear and it wasn't necessarily about the labor no um but it was about what was happening to him yeah and I suddenly realized during I think it got to about so I'd gone to hospital about midnight and it got to three o 'clock in the afternoon and I suddenly realized I wasn't breathing because I was so full of fear I was literally breathing to my lungs and not anywhere else so interesting and And that was stopping everything.

23:58And, you know, I think that we as women only go into labour, full labour, when it is safe to do so. Yeah. So you're holding on. One of your kids isn't safe, 100%. Yeah. And you can't. This sounds so shallow in comparison to that. But Holly's birthday is on the 22nd of September. Yeah. And at Holly's birthday party, second year old birthday party, I could feel it starting. Really? And I thought, oh no, not on Holly's birthday. Yeah. Like your little sister coming along on your birthday for the rest of your life would be quite annoying. So I thought, no, you can't have this baby now. You can't go into labour until after midnight.

24:50And it stopped. Really? and the niggle stopped and at quarter past twelve and I've written it all down in a book I had another contraction I reckon your body once it got to midnight must have just gone I'm relaxed, I can do it now did she come quickly? Tilly came very quickly she was a month early oh wow three weeks early and your pregnancies were like mine they were like the like I had this feeling of like I had no control over it was like my body was doing it not me oh yeah it was unbelievable I mean when um when it came to pushing yeah I always thought from tv and films that you push but the better way to describe what happens there is your body is expelling a baby.

25:49You contribute to the expelling, but if you didn't push at all, it would still be expelling. It's incredible what your body does then. But when I was pregnant, I wasn't football up the jumper pregnant. You know, like when you can't tell if someone's pregnant from the back. I was not that person. If you are interested, the final of Big Brother 6, I think it was, Nicky. Okay. Nicky and Pete. Nicky Graham. Yeah. I had to go and kind of collect Nicky Graham because she was, not hysterical, but like she was kind of when she came out and there was such a furore for her. Oh, my gosh, I remember you having to go in to get her.

26:42I had to go get her. Yeah. And I brought her out, and then I had to sit her down, and I mean, other than kind of slap her in the face, which you would normally do to somebody hysterical, I was thinking this might not be a good move on live television. But I was, I knelt between her legs, and I had her shoulders, and I was like, Nikki, I really need you to look at me. Are you okay? Just stay with me. Just keep looking at me in the eye. It was so intense. She'd basically been hidden away for so long. It was, God, like 10 weeks, 13 weeks. The noise, the people, the unexpected love, the overwhelm.

27:28But if you go and Google that, you can see that my feet were pregnant, my ankles were pregnant, my cheeks were pregnant. I was one of those ladies, you know, like everything was pregnant. but glorious and this is the other thing that these midwives made me feel like some people would go oh my goodness you're blooming I knew what that meant like you're enormous but whenever I saw Pam she'd go oh you look absolutely perfect this is perfect I said I don't look too big she went no you look perfect you're exactly where you're meant to be it's a hard thing isn't it because during pregnancy when someone I don't understand what your body does what your body does.

28:15You can't do anything about it. You really can't. No. So with, you know, so many people hold water, there's water retention. That was me. Yeah, so it's that thing of being told how much you're putting on. Like, yeah, you can have a look at what you're eating, but really your body's going to do what your body's going to do. Yeah. I mean, I have had so many friends who have been told that they are having enormous babies and they had seven and a half pounders. and it really is frightening especially to a first-time mum possibly not to a second or third but to a first-time mum when somebody says oh your baby's a big one it's going to be really big we think it might be nine or ten pounds it's going to make it's like nothing will shut your cervix quicker than that kind of fear yeah um and often it's you know sometimes women will have a cesarean because of the kind of suspected size of their baby and it's a seven and a half pounder so just don't stress about that too much yeah

29:22it's been eight years seven years yeah since you were last on yeah god life's changed a lot yes it has oh my goodness it's massively changed and your children are now a lot older yes so do Do you want to know how old Chester is now? Yes, please. He's turning 19 on Saturday. This is your baby! Nicky Graham and I were together around now 19 years ago. That's nearly two decades. That's mad. I mean, do you feel like you're in just a different phase of motherhood now? And, you know, you've got your podcast is Begin Again. then do you feel like it's just a very different wave? Yeah. I feel in a really nice place.

30:09Yeah. It's funny because I guess nowadays the proper empty nesting thing doesn't happen as much, I think, as it used to. Really? I think I feel like kids come back all the time. My middle daughter went to Australia for three years, but she's coming back for at least four months on Saturday. Right. which we're really excited about. My daughter Holly lives in Manchester now, but she comes down quite often. Chester is still really at home. He's taken a year out and he's going to university next year. So he's 19, he'll still be here until he's at least 20 and then going to university. So it's nice I get to still really enjoy the kids, but also enjoy a little bit of freedom again, you know.

30:59Was that a daunting thing before it started happening? I have been a parent who, like I said before, when Holly came out, I was like, I never want to work again. Oh, my goodness. She's just robbed me of all my ambition. But at the same time, all through their childhood, I thought the goal for me is that my children walk away from me and never look back. not because they hate me but because they feel really confident in themselves and they are looking forward to going out and living their lives and I want to help them do that. I don't want to have somebody who's still clinging on to my ankle, worried, frightened, a bit scared of the world.

31:48I want to try and prepare them for the big bad world out there and make them excited to go be in it. And I felt that's what I was gifted by my dad and my step-mom. I was so excited to get out there and work and be part of life and try and find a flat and find a terrible flat and then six months later find a much nicer one and like how do you find a flatmate? All of those things I discovered on my own. And is that difficult though with your kids to, or do you feel like that's just part and parcel, to let them go and do those things where things aren't great, there might be a shitty apartment whatever it is to kind of just let them go and do it and just discover for themselves So I've got two amazing bits of advice So I asked my best friend one of my best friends, Katie who had four beautiful girls so nice How do I have a baby?

32:44What do I do? What do they need? And she went It's easy, it's two things I was like, oh wow, only two things this is amazing And she said, love I was like, yep, got buckets of that. And she went, and boundaries. I was like, I don't understand. What do you mean? What is a boundary? And she said, we do this a lot as parents. If you do that again, we're not going to do this. Or you'll have to do that. Or this is going to happen. If you make that, it is a threat, let's face it, because they're probably doing something unsafe and you're trying to stop them from being unsafe. Mine was usually around seatbelts in the back seat.

33:24Oh, really? You know, leave your seatbelt on or we will blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But if you don't follow through with the threat of the boundary, they don't feel safe. Yeah. Boundaries make kids feel safe. They know where they stand. Mum said, if I did that again, this would happen. I did it again and it happened. if they do it again and it doesn't happen, they think, oh, I can do it again and again and again. And then sometimes it does happen and sometimes it doesn't. It's going to make you feel insecure. I don't know where I stand. I don't know what you mean. Do you mean what you say? Oh, do you do what you say?

34:08All of these things matter for a kid feeling safe. So I remember once I said to my kids, if you do that again, we won't go to this family party in Australia. And there were certain people there that we were only going to see at the family party right and they did it again and I thought that that was enough of a threat for them to not do it again I thought they all really want to go they did it again and I was like well we're not going and two of them who were old enough to understand what it was Holly and Tilly they were catatonic with grief and I was going into the bathroom, locking myself in the loo and thinking, why did you say that?

34:53Why was that the forfeit? You really wanted to go to that party. I was so angry with myself. You absolute numpty. You know, we're not going to go and get a chocolate croissant in the morning. We'd be a much better threat. Yes, you can live without the croissant. Yes. So we didn't go. But you know, that's what Katie meant. Yeah. Love and boundaries. The second one is epic and has been so helpful for me. And it's for your listeners who have got kids that are a bit older. Yeah. It's about teenagers. And she said, never say no to a teenager. And I was like, I mean, obviously you're joking. You've got to say no to teenagers.

35:42You can't just let them take drugs or, you know, do something. I don't know, drive a car if they haven't got a driver's license. You've got to say no. You go, she said no. You sit down and you go, okay, tell me what you want to do. It's like I want to go to the party. I want to come back at three. And they're 14 or something. And you're thinking, not on your nelly. You're not coming back at three from a massive party. You know, there's probably much older kids. No way. But I go, so tell me about the party. like who said three o 'clock and they explain everything and then I'll say okay look tomorrow I've got to get up at um 8 30 to go and walk the dogs and blah blah blah is there any way that we could negotiate on the time because I'm struggling a bit like what about 12 30 they go you're joking can't do 12 30 everybody else like staying till two or three like please and you go okay yeah I I suddenly went like a bit, I went a bit bath.

36:41Where are your kids from? My kids are from Bristol. I'm from Tunbridge Wells. Because weirdly grew up with a random Bristol accent. Sorry, we get the point, but it's so funny not to reference. Oh, mum, what are you doing? I want to stay till two. Two or three. Come on, mum. Oh, my God. I've gone mad. Help me. Oh, God. Yeah, so then they said, no, no, sorry, sorry, sorry. So basically, then the idea is negotiation. Yeah. So the idea is that you give some ground and they give some ground or the idea is that they talk about, I don't know, getting their ears pierced or going. And you, you know, I remember my daughters bringing a really good argument argument to me when they were 12 about why they wanted 13 was the age and they said 12 and it was to do with the fact that a lot of time has passed since I was 13 and life is and I was like guys that is actually a really good argument and I congratulated them I didn't care if they got their ears pierced a year before do you know what I mean but what it did give me an opportunity to do is to give them some autonomy and for them to feel empowered yeah because they made a decision about their own life and not only that their mum was impressed by it like they impressed me yeah with the argument that they bought they thought it out they talked talked about it together I was like wow this is actually great we're so used to saying no yeah and I also think that we're in a hurry all the time so it's just a blanket no let's move on yeah no time for that yeah you know this is what I've said because I've said so and actually it is that being listened to having a conversation It is such a different thing.

38:37It sets a very different tone. And to be sat there discussing something, it's just more respectful. Do you know what's interesting I just thought about while you were talking? Was, isn't it funny how we also need to do that in relationships? Yeah. Because it is, we are all so busy in our relationships, and especially if you've got multiple children and you want to go, just, do you want to know? Just like, no. Yeah. But actually, it's like, actually, let me just ask you, why do why do you want to? Oh, well, hang on a minute. Let's talk about that for two minutes. Yeah. Let's sit down and have a very quick cup of tea.

39:18Why do you want me to come to that thing with you? And then go, oh, OK, so it would really mean something. All right. Yeah, I'll come. We just don't have the time for those niceties anymore. And when you were saying about blanket now, I thought, isn't it interesting that we also sometimes do that with our partners? Having kids with someone that you really love is so multi-layered. There's such a deep and beautiful understanding of each other that comes with it. And co-parenting or both being the parents of a child is such an honour. But then also you lose something because you're both focusing on these kids.

39:59and you stop focusing on each other and it's so important. So try and remember to also negotiate with your partner and don't do the blanket no to them either. I know, but that is such a massive thing, isn't it? Because ultimately parenthood changes both parents. It has to. And life changes people. Yeah, of course. And when you are only able to offer crumbs to that person because you are so depleted, because you can't bear to be asked another thing, you know, your to-do pile is big enough, or you're touched out or whatever. It's really hard. Yeah, it's so hard. I mean, it is really difficult and I think time is so precious.

40:41Yeah. And now I've got a little bit more of it because my kids are more grown up. Yeah. I've realised how much I've missed little snippets of time. Yeah. But just remember, all of you that were in the thick of it, that you will at some point, and so many people said this to me and I was like, yeah, yeah, whatever, that you will at some point look back and really miss the bit that you're in right now. Like, enjoy every moment of your kids, your partner at this time in your lives and five minutes with your partner is better than nothing. Yeah, just the, but if, you know, find time for each other because you don't want to become strangers.

41:27And you can. It's so easy. So easy to be strangers. Yeah. Obviously, something quite massive happened last year. Yeah. With your brain tumor. Yeah. Davina, I can't even... The fact that the way that you found out, you know, you've just got offered this... Yeah, by chance. Because of work, you got offered this medical thing. I didn't want to do it. Well, because sometimes it's like, I've got a busy day. Who's got two days? It was a two-day thing. and I thought, I'm a fitness lady. Yeah. Look at me. I'm me. I don't need it. And you know what's been interesting? And again, I can actually sort of slightly compare this to birth.

42:11I might cry. That's okay. I'm okay. Yeah. Come here. Come here. Often I can't talk about it without crying. Yeah. and I know that some women go through a birth that slightly makes them feel like that and I think that means it was traumatic for me you know I think I've been through a trauma I'm one of those people who tries to put a positive spin on everything yeah and I spend all my time going I knew if I got through it this would be the greatest thing that ever happened to me I do feel so grateful still but I know I've got to go back and do some work on this because I can't do this I can't talk about it without feeling like this yeah thank you and I don't think there's any way you can go through that and not be affected by it I honestly don't that's in your brain that is you know that's your life you've got kids you know Yeah.

43:16I mean, I did some work on myself that I feel I can take with me forever, which was I did have an abject terror of dying because I think I've got kids and I know that any mum, your biggest fear is leaving your children and would they be OK? Yeah. And mine are a bit older now, so it was slightly different for me. but I did look at each one of them as an individual and play through what it would be like for them if I didn't make it and I saw them all living a full and happy life and they would be okay and they've got each other which is lovely and they love each other very much and they've got other people around them who love and care for them very much and being able to let, like, trust the sort of doctor and the anaesthetist and the nurses in that room and go, I know that you are going to do a great job and I have total faith in you and I'm going to let go of the outcome.

44:31Yeah. Not like, oh, I might die, but I'm just letting go of that. I might not. I might. Do you really feel like you could? I did. Because you had quite the lead up before the actual surgery as well. So in that time, I mean, I know you worked super hard to get all your work done as well. You got everything out of the way, so you don't have to worry about any of that. Yeah. But almost like getting your affairs in order, you're able to have this major surgery and then give yourself time to recover afterwards. and do you think having that time enabled you to really piece together what you wanted it to, how you wanted to deal with it?

45:14Yeah, I feel like it's a gift in a way to have let go of that. Like I feel, how old are you? 40. So I'm 58 in October and I'm thinking about what am I going to do for my 60th? That's great. I can remember your fifth year. I don't know how you were your sixth year. It was good, right? No, I didn't get to go. You might feel like I could have made it. Oh, no. Bollocks. Come to the sixth year. Yeah, there we go.

45:46And I feel like none of us are going to escape death. Yeah. And longevity has become something of an obsession. And it becomes such an obsession that it becomes stressful. all these different things that we have to do to try and stay alive for longer. We've got to get our sleep patterns correct. We've got to get de-stressed. We've got to try and, you know, exercise like a mania. Oh, you're drinking. It's terrible for you. Like we're just told nonstop. But these things, you telling us all of this stuff actually become stressful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which then causes inflammation. You know, stress causes inflammation.

46:26It's just stop worrying about everything. But worrying about death is another worry, which only brings it closer to you. So in a sense, I was quite grateful for that. But what I didn't anticipate was how difficult the six months after would be. I did very well in approaching the operation and the lead up to the operation and going to sleep. But I just thought life would go back to normal quite quickly and I didn't go back to normal. How do you thought about the fact that when you woke up you wouldn't quite know, you know, where your brain was? I didn't understand. And people had said your short-term memory might be affected, but I just didn't really get what that meant.

47:11I just thought I wouldn't remember what I'd just done. But I wasn't aware that my memory was so bad. which for anybody with a loved one who has Alzheimer's or dementia, they are not aware. So the only time that they are aware is when you shine a light on it and then they feel embarrassed. And then they might get a bit defensive or behave a bit funny because they've been made to feel stupid or they are aware that they're not normal. So the best way to help somebody who's got short-term memory loss is to just keep repeating the thing that they keep asking you to do and not say, I told you. But that's something that you all had to learn.

48:05Yes. And the kids have to kind of understand. I mean, what was interesting was I just became superhuman at reading faces. Really? And so Michael, who spent the majority of the time with me, I've never seen him struggle with spending time with me. But sometimes he was telling me, sometimes I'd ask him the same thing like seven times in half an hour. Right. And he'd have to leave the room for a bit. But I could, it wasn't normal. What was happening wasn't our normal life. and I had long-term memory, I could remember. And I thought, oh, he doesn't want to be with me. But in the end, we had a chat and he said, what are you talking about?

48:57I love you, of course I want to be with you. He said, you're actually just a bit annoying at the moment. And I laughed so hard with relief. I was so relieved to find out that it was a thing that will get better. but that's fascinating to me the fact that after birth we feel like that during like the perimenopause we feel like that and you've now you've experienced it again like that questioning yourself feeling like it's me they don't want to be with me you know it doesn't matter how many times you get to that point you still believe what your brain is telling you in that way God, it's mad. And that was really, you know, losing yourself, which like you've said, I didn't really think of it like that.

49:47Like I've done it with birth and then with menopause and then with this, you know, it's horrible. Yeah. And I really get that. But I knew I was still in there. And sometimes I just wanted to shout. please remember me. I'm still here. I'm trying to get back to you, but I don't know how to do it. Wait for me. I promise you I'm not going to be this annoying forever. Just a little bit, just a little bit, but not this annoying. I'm just annoying in a different way, right? But tricky to navigate. But what was really nice, like he once, he said to me at one point, And he said, if you ever can't find me, we're talking metaphorically, you know, if you ever can't get to me, stay where you are and I will come find you.

50:47And I knew he meant it. Like just it was like, just don't worry. We are together forever. We're going to get through this and I'm going to find you. Whatever it takes. Yeah. and you know that meant the world to me and if I'm really honest you know we had a light bulb moment maybe after five months yeah it's a long time that is a long time and also not knowing quite if this is your new normal yeah I knew it wasn't so I could feel myself getting better yeah I used to call them small wins right like finding my way back to a table in a restaurant from the toilet was a win right i'd get back to the table with some friends and i'd go yes and they'd be like wow this is i know you this is weird and i'll be like no no i found my way back from the loo and they're all like yeah i go no no this is a new thing this is really exciting and i'd have these little wins all day every day i had a really mega one recently right i was with a girlfriend and she'd been talking to a guy and he said he'd opened a hotel in Joshua Tree.

52:01Okay. And I had to do the same thing, thought process. You saw me do it, right? So he was opening a hotel in Joshua Tree and then the next day we were somewhere and she said, where was that guy going to open a hotel? And I went, Michael loved a band. That was you too. You too had an album. Joshua Tree. And I burst into tears. She burst into tears. She's a really good friend of mine. And she hadn't really thought about what she was asking me. But as I was thinking, she looked a bit worried. Right. Because she'd done the thing that might make somebody that can't remember feel bad. Yeah. If they can't remember.

52:39And she was like, oh, God, I've asked her a question. She's not going to know the answer. And I did the thought process. I said, Joshua Tree. And she went, oh. And I cried. She cried. It was like a mega, you know. And so that's a small win for most people. but for me, it was huge. That sounds massive. And they said a year to 18 months. So 18 months will be May next year. Right. So May next year, I'll probably have a bit of a party for me and Michael for ourselves. Yeah. And I'll go get used to me because this is probably who I'm going to be for the rest of my life. This is my level of annoying.

53:13Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not changing. I like that. But for you, you know, this is a massive pivotal life moment, which I do, it is that classic thing of when something like this happens, it does make someone re-evaluate their life and more grateful. Yes. But it's also collided with the kids going off. Yes. Or the kids getting at an age where actually you do have your time again and life looks very, very different. It's interesting that it's happened at the same time and that must feel even more massive than it would have done without it. You know, like a house of cards. Yeah. It's like somebody's taken the bottom card and the whole thing's collapsed.

53:51but what I see there is a blank canvas and a chance to rebuild something completely different like what do I one of the greatest things that Michael has taught me around being a parent is rather than controlling which is what I can do with my kids and go right I think you should do this or well when I did that like you want to do this he's like why don't you try just putting the ball in their court and see what happens and I started doing that maybe three or four years ago and he gave me a great phrase to use and he said and I think this would work with toddlers what do you think you should do about that what do you think you should do about that like oh what are you going to do about that and it's so brilliant watching them go oh um I think I'm going to...

54:51So if they say, I want to have another bit of cheese, and you go, well, we're going to have lunch in a minute, so what do you think you're going to do about that? Rather than say, no, you can't have any because we're going to have lunch in a minute, they'll go, I'll wait for lunch, or they'll go, I want the piece of cheese, and you go, fine. But it's learning that your decisions have an impact, so then you might go, you didn't finish your lunch, Maybe that's because you had the piece of cheese. But they made that decision. It's so... These little things, it's so interesting. So I've got, like...

55:26I've levelled the playing field. And I am restarting my life. It's quite funny. Sorry, we were just talking about the kids leaving. When I came home from hospital, I walked through the front door and my son came down the stairs. It was so good to see him. Oh, my God. I just gave him a massive hug. and he went, I didn't know it was that serious. And I'd done quite a good job then. I'd obviously done quite a good job, like, of not making it... Yeah, playing it down. He'd gone to school, he had people looking out for him at school and asking him if he was OK, and there was, like, the newspapers. He was like, God, Mum's done a thing.

56:05But you said to me earlier, it's that thing of you only shared it when you knew that you were OK. So you didn't have to have any of that noise. You didn't have to carry that in with you. It was you going through it, you and the family, you and Michael, kind of just navigating it yourselves before it had to go. And you had to go out there. What was brilliant was when somebody said to me, don't tell anybody that's going to blow it up or be anxious or only tell calm people. And that was so true. And I hardly told anybody. I told, I had my birthday, some friends over for my birthday on the 16th of October and I called my tumour Jeffrey and I had an FU Jeffrey party and we told everybody then and then I said we said we're having the operation in the month don't worry we're fine with it obviously they were worried but they all just sort of you know tried to kind of put a brave face on it and they were brilliant all my mates they were so helpful and then I just didn't want to talk about it again until the op and then we put out the announcement while I was on the operating table because I just didn't want to see or hear any of the yeah for or I didn't watch the telly I didn't even know it had been on the telly and I mean somebody may have told me but I didn't remember so I had no idea I still have no idea I haven't looked it up yeah of anything like what it what it was like but I knew that I was going to give them enough information where they wouldn't have to dig for more.

57:36I gave them everything in that one announcement and it worked very well for me that. Yeah, yeah. It was done. Yeah. You know. If you were going to write a letter on motherhood, who would it be to and what would you say? I mean, you've written a whole book, but let's just go for one letter. What's quite interesting is the first thing I thought about was my mum. and she really struggled with being a parent and it would be a kind of I'm letting you go, like I let you off the hook type of letter because I spent my whole life trying to get her to be a mum to me. I kind of wanted Angela Lansbury and I got like this free, wild, like fire, sexy, mad woman who just couldn't do it because she'd never been parented herself and I now really understand that.

58:45She didn't have it in her. She didn't purposefully not parent me. She couldn't. She didn't know how. And she was jealous of me and my sister and our youth. And it would be a letter of forgiveness, I think, really, and how all the mistakes that she made helped me know what I don't want to do and made me a better parent and kind of in a weird sort of way thank her for that as well. So I think it would be a letter to her. It's sad really when I think about her. She's gone and I tried to help her but we ended up estranged. And just a shout out to any mums out there who are estranged from their mums.

59:50It's like a cardinal sin being estranged from your mum. People are always like, well, you know, but you'll get in touch in the end. And sometimes you can't. Yeah. You know, sometimes you've got to let that go. But people don't know the history, do they? And I think with you carrying that in your heart, though, of that kind of forgiveness, however you want to sort of word that, that is the only way for you to carry on through life. Can I write a PS to my letter? Yes, you may. I would write a love letter to my step-mum. Yeah. Such an important role in something. She's the best. And I couldn't see her until, like, a year ago.

1:00:34In her true light. Really? Yeah, because I was too busy trying to get my mum to parent me, but I had the perfect mother right there under my nose. And then secondly, my mum was so difficult, but everybody used to tell me how like my mum I was. That's got to be hard. Yeah, and I used to think, oh, she probably doesn't like me very much because I'm so like my mum. But I decided that, not that she didn't like me, but that I'd put an intention in her towards me that was a bit, like, wrong. and actually last year I just replaced that with pure love. I could see all she's ever done is love me and we just fell in love.

1:01:18That's amazing. She's been in your life for so long. Yeah, and I... She's amazing. She's the best granny to my kids. She's the best mum to me and Michael. She's so helpful. She's great. Thanks, Gabby. I love you. I just think stepmums are such an important role. So good. They can be so vital in someone's life. Did you have one? Yeah, I've got one. I'm a stepmum, yeah. And she's wonderful. She's wonderful, Debbie. Big up, Debbie. Big up, Debbie. Big up, Debbie. She never had her own kids, but I feel like she has always loved us as if we were her own. And we were early 20s teenagers when Debbie first was on the scene.

1:02:14So she's been in our life for almost two decades. And to see her with the grandkids, it's just wonderful. I think it's such a gift, a gift for her, a gift for us. But I'm sure Debbie feels that you're a gift because you have let her in. You know, it takes Debbie to be a lovely person for you to let her in, but also you're a lovely person to let her in. Does that make sense? It's a reciprocal thing. It's very important. One without the other doesn't work. But we're very lucky in our family. You make your own luck, though, because you're lovely people. That's how come. But mum and dad have made it work.

1:02:51You know what I mean? They've made it work. Yes, totally. We have holidays together. We're so, you know, I am going to say lucky. I'm just very grateful that we have that. Davina, we end the podcast with you completing three sentences. God, I love you so much, Giovanna. No, seriously, I do. I love you so much. You're just the most amazing woman. Shush you, let me cry again. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Being a mum means? Doing the absolute best I can for the rest of my life to love, protect, enjoy, educate and entertain and embarrass my children and let go of every expectation and just let them be exactly who they are.

1:03:47Since having children, I? Since having children, I have become so much wiser, so much more patient, so much more understanding and forgiving.

1:04:07And so much more full of laughter and joy. And I'm happy when? I am happy when we're all together. I love you oh man it's nothing quite like it and it's going to happen for the first time in three years oh wow on Friday wow wait tomorrow tomorrow hey Davina thank you so much thank you I never wanted that to end I know so mad I was like fuck I really enjoyed that more than I actually think I should have oh my that was so nice Thank you.