Default Parenting Hell with Lou Beckett

0:28Okay, are you ready? A few years ago, a couple of years ago, she wrote a blog post, which she entitled something. She said it was a bit of a whine. It was all about being the default parent. And in it, she used a couple of sentences that said something along the lines of, people used to listen to me. People used to respect me. And that's just that little thing had me hooked. And it's no wonder that following that blog post, she now has a book coming out that is called Lessons from a Default Parent. She has two little girls. She is married to Rob Beckett, which means that she is the subject of some humour.

1:05Yes, some humour. Some humour when he's on stage or in his rival podcast, the Parenting Hell podcast. It's Lou Beckett. Hello. Hello. How are you? I'm good, thank you. Thank you for having me. I always think it's really interesting when guests come on and they've written a book because you spend so long sort of thinking about what's in there, getting those words down. and it's you, it's the page, and then you get into promo and suddenly the things that you've shared, it's suddenly now you've got to talk about it. To talk about them, and yeah, and I think you get so long when you're writing it to really think about it and almost regurgitate it all up and, I don't know, reanalyse everything.

1:47And then, yeah, now people go, so what do you think about that? I'm like, oh, I don't know. I don't know. I thought really hard about how I phrased it in a book, and that is how I feel. Can I refer you to page 12? That's how this podcast is going to be. Any time I reference something, you just go, let's go back to this page. Let's just give me a second. Yeah, no, it's nice. It's nice to talk about it because, like I say, there's obviously that gap between writing it and handing it in and it being done, and then there's what feels like quite a long time. So it's almost quite nice to get it back.

2:15Like when it's come back to me in actual book form, I'm like, oh, oh, that's mine. Oh, I wrote that. Do you find yourself reading certain bits and going, oh, my gosh. yeah I mean when I read when I read it out on the audiobook oh yeah there was a couple of points where I was like oh oh I sound clinically depressed or I didn't realize almost it was quite nice to go back it was nice when I wrote it to go back and rethink about all all of those things over the past 10 years since being a mum I also realized that when I did the audiobook I did it in a full Enid Blyton voice all the way through and I didn't realize how much of a well It was only when I said the first swear word that I was like, oh, fuck.

2:53And I was like, that's not how I speak. I'm from Bromley. But I'd started then, so I was like, oh, got to carry on. So apologies if you have the audio book. I'm like, who is this person? That's not Lou Beckett. It is me. I just maintained my full telephone voice for two full days. Wow. Yeah, I was quite proud of myself. I mean, my mum would be so proud when she listens to it. I've enunciated all my T's. it's beautiful spoken English but it's not how I speak that's so funny let's talk about the blog post that you originally wrote obviously that's the catalyst for taking a deeper dive like you aren't someone I would say that as a couple you have Rob who has that platform to sort of share everything and actually you don't necessarily have that platform or share in the same way no I get the odd right of reply which I'd say is few and far between for the amount of times I feel like I'm thrown under the bus, either on stage or on his podcast.

3:56Yeah, no, I wrote that because I think I was feeling very, very, I don't know if it's frustrated is the right word, but just very lost probably. Like I'd been a mum for, God, it must have been about eight years at that point. I'd gone for a teaching interview and I'd always kind of had teaching as a little safe space, like a little panic room in my head of like, if I really need to go back and if I need to find myself again and re-centre in something that was very, very important to me, I can go back. And I just kind of assumed I'd be able to go back quite arrogantly. I'm like, I'm a good teacher.

4:30I'll be able to waltz back in. And it was hideous. It was awful. It was one of the worst days of my life. Not to over-dramatise the situation. But it was. I genuinely could have walked myself off a cliff at the end of that day. and I think all of that kind of come together and I've always I'm better at expressing myself in through writing than I am speaking or talk I've tried therapy I can you know it works for people I can see that it works I prefer writing I feel like I can get it all out and sometimes I can look at things a lot clearer once it's written and it just did it more for me than anybody else and Rob was like you should put that up somewhere you should just, you know, because it might resonate with people and then obviously it did resonate with people.

5:18Was Rob surprised when he read it? Not surprised. I think it made him understand it in a way that I wasn't maybe expressing verbally because I think when I express things verbally it's that thing where your parents, you're tired and it normally was coming out when we were both feeling a bit stretched or a bit stressed and it doesn't always come out in maybe the most productive way. It was always a bit like, I need some help and no one listens to me and no one cares about me. But you've reached a point, right? Yeah. Where you're kind of constantly trying to carry the load and all of a sudden you're at a break point.

6:01All those little sort of things that build up, it just kind of explodes out in a way that's not as productive as it could be if you sat down for a conversation. And I think he was able to kind of take it in in a much clearer, almost less emotive way because I didn't write it when I was really stressed or on the edge of some sort of emotional outburst. I kind of was able to, you know, articulate myself quite clearly and really cathartically. And I felt much better once I'd written it. And I think he could understand it much better. they're like oh oh okay I didn't realize it was actually that it wasn't just the dishwasher it wasn't just you know the club runs on a Saturday morning this is quite a big oh it was bigger than maybe he thought it was if that makes sense yeah absolutely and then what was the reaction was that really really validating in that there was just so many people mostly mums but you know not not Not only, but I think that obviously in the majority of situations, there's just no getting around the fact that he's mostly the mum that tends to take on that role.

7:07Really, really validating that just so many messages of people in either the same situation or could identify with a lot of it. And what really spurred me on to kind of... Spurred me on? Like climbing a mountain or something. But, you know, it really gave me an impetus to kind of go, OK, well, I want to do something now and I want to kind of keep this momentum going almost, of it was people who were kind of like 40 years further on than me going, oh, God, I still feel like that. And also it was really nice from a purely selfish perspective to go, oh, I'm not just really whiny and pathetic. When I go, like, no one cares anymore and no one listens to me, they go like, oh, actually, you know, there's loads of people who no one listens to them either.

7:51At least there's lots of us. Yeah. Which was really nice. So it felt, it was quite vulnerable putting it out there. And like I say, that's not normally my wheelhouse. I'm very much backseat driver in this kind of dynamic. That's what Rob does. Yeah, and he's happy with that. And I'm happy with this. I know, it's an actual book. I know, I know, it's a full book. It's a really, really long whinge. It's not a whinge. It's not a whinge. It's really funny. It's really articulate. Oh, thank you. You know, it's really informative. and I think when books work, when they're aimed at parents, especially new parents, books work when they can become a companion, when they make someone feel less alone.

8:34So it's not, there's nothing judgmental in it. Like anything that wouldn't be helpful is not there. You know what I mean? It's literally like sitting down with a mate and that's why I think it works. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I was quite careful. I know it's called lessons from a default parent, but it's very much what I've learnt rather than this is what you I wouldn't have the audacity quite frankly to be like this is what you should do and this is quite a long breakdown on paper it makes me want to um run away when people call me an expert in anything I'm like nope yeah yeah oh could you offer some advice on no no no no no I think it's quite clear we shouldn't be listening to me for advice but if what you want is, oh, look, she's had a breakdown too.

9:18And I'm not the only one. Absolutely. That's what this is, not, this is how you be the perfect mother. Which we obviously all are. Yes, I am perfect. If we learn nothing else from today, we just walk away with that. We're good. Yeah. Lou, where did you grow up? Bromley, so like southeast. You've lived there, have you stayed there, always been there? I went to Sheffield for uni. So we went north for a little bit. And then, yeah, I went as far as Newcross into London. Nice, okay. And then Newcross, Greenwich. Is that all on the same line as well? Basically. It's all in one little, very cosy southeast.

9:56Oh, it's drama school. It's a little wedge. So we used to go to Bromley, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's not changed much. Hasn't it? No, not really. Yeah, and now we still live in Bromley. And what was your childhood like? Lovely. Was it? Yeah, there's a very, very nice. I've got my mum and dad still together. We're still very close. I've got two sisters, one older, one younger. My dad worked quite long hours during the week, but he was really present at weekends. Yeah. So that kind of quite classic, like my mum was there in the week. Probably not dissimilar in a different kind of timetable to what my girls have got now.

10:35Yeah. So with Rob's work, it's a bit feast or famine. He's either there and like school runs, pickups, tea, everything, or he's not there at all. So it's quite feast or famine. But like when he's there, he's very present. And I'd say my dad was the same. Like Monday to Friday, he'd be gone before we got up and would often be in bed by the time he got home. But at weekends, it was like dad took the, not took the lead. I don't want to make my mum angry. But I'd be like, I was there too. but no but he he was very very present yeah at the weekends so he never felt like that was do you know what i mean it was a really nice balance absolutely and then so having that family environment did it make you think about when you were older having your own family yeah i think i always i always knew i wanted children yeah and i never really thought about not yeah it was just kind of i mean i guess probably like a lot of people do where you just move one thing to the next to the next to the next it was more when we got married I was like oh okay so I you know when you start thinking about it seriously and I've got a couple of health things that I've been told a couple of things and then I had a couple of health things you've got um colitis yeah ulcerative colitis PCOS PCOS and endometriosis I mean that's quite a lot A lot of things.

12:00And a lot of things in terms of fertility as well, like the impact that they could have on you getting pregnant and keeping your pregnancy. And that you don't necessarily know until you start. Right. And I think very well meaningly had been told by a couple of different consultants that it could be difficult to both get pregnant and then possibly keep a pregnancy. Ulcerative colitis can kind of go at any point if you have a change in your body because it's an autoimmune thing. and so like it's obviously pregnancy is a big change so you can kind of it can send you off into a real flare or it can i had that with both my pregnancies one sent it off into a real flare and the other one dampened my symptoms completely so there's just no way of knowing so i got a bit like baby baby now we should start now we should start right now in case it takes years yeah and and you were planning someone had told you to have sex every other day every other day for a year Yeah, because then you would qualify for help.

12:56And I was like, sorry. Beg your pardon.

13:02I was like, no, you do it for every other day for a year. See how you like it. But obviously Rob was quite excited about this idea. Yeah, Rob was like, well, you know what? If they think it's a good idea to start trying, I think we should start trying. It's like, good. And then what happened, Lou? Oh, less than a week. genuinely think it might have been first out the gate

13:30we were skiing i was up a mountain i was drinking i was like altitude i was like this won't work it'll be it's like oh no whoops wow yeah so what i have learned is that we can never ever rest on our laurels yeah because despite all appearances my body is oh i mean rob likes to say it's him well it's not though is it come on it's like nothing couldn't stop me. I see your endo. Yeah. I see your massive colitis. I am going to. Yeah. So straight. Yeah. Straight away both times. So how did how did you feel when you found out you were pregnant that first time? Do you have any symptoms that made you test or was it just the right time?

14:12No. Rob was doing. What was it? It was either the Royal Variety or one night. Is it one night at the Palladium? Is that a thing? I think so. He was doing that and it was really and it was at this point in his career it was a very I mean played him was always a big night but it was like a really big deal and he was doing it that night and we were going to go out and his mate Matt Ford was doing it as well and we were going to they were going to go out and we were all going to go out afterwards I was like well do you know I should just do a test before I go out and drink myself unconscious I should probably just check you know you know you know you do them and you think it's like it doesn't even occur to you that It could be positive.

14:49So he wasn't in. He was already up in London. I was by myself. I was going, fuck. And he was like, no, no. Just leave that there for a little bit. And then I immediately got every symptom in the world. I was like, well, now I'm hot. Now I'm, like, within 20 minutes. I was like, now I'm sweaty. Now I'm hot. Now I can feel, like, I must have been about six days pregnant. But I was like, I had every symptom in the world immediately. Couldn't concentrate on the entire evening. Didn't want to tell him before. Yeah. in case it threw him off. But by the time I told him, him and Matt started drinking because I was so relieved that the evening was over and it had gone well.

15:25So I was like trying to make him look at me, be like, no, I need you to focus, Rob. Because he was like, have a drink. And I was like, I can't have a drink. Focus. I really need you to listen to what I'm saying and take it in. And then we ended up in like one of the Chinese restaurants that's open at like two in the morning. Right. So maybe not where you want to be, very newly pregnant, at two in the morning with two very drunk men who are eating with their hands. And lots of smells. Lots of smells, lots of... And I was just desperately trying to get Matt in a taxi so I could go home and, like, I could get Rob sober so we could talk about this.

16:00I'm like, what are we doing? We're in a tiny little flat. It just sounds like we... So did you tell him at the start of the drinking? Were you able to? As soon as I could get backstage after they'd finished the record, I told him but like I say he'd already started drinking and him and Matt were like really excited and we were all going to go out and I was like I didn't want to be the one that was like no no you've got to come home now this is your new life welcome to Frondhwood get in the car so yeah we did I mean it was it's a really funny story and like I think now obviously we couldn't tell Matt at the time but he was like have a drink you're no fun so how were those first few weeks what I found out very quickly is I'm not a good pregnant person you know how some people glow and they really like it and and they feel all like mother earthy yeah I got sick almost immediately and like all day all night I'm also full of rage and spite for the world as well I'm not a pleasant person to be around I'm unreasonable I know I'm being unreasonable but I can't stop it and it makes it worse.

17:11I will pick a fight with anyone when I'm pregnant. I'm just not, I'm not very nice. I think I feel so awful. Yeah. And then all the hormones on top of it, I'm just, I'm like a kind of vomiting spike ball when I'm pregnant. It's not nice. There's a really brief window after about, I don't know, 24 weeks or something where I stopped being sick and I was pregnant enough that I looked really pregnant but the rest of me still looked quite skinny in comparison. Yeah. And there's about three or four weeks where I felt like, this is it. I love being pregnant. And then we tipped over the other side. I went back to being full of rage and spite.

17:48And I couldn't sleep. And I couldn't walk. No, I've learned. My friend really enjoys being pregnant. She's had four kids. Loves being pregnant. Loves labour. She's like, I just find it all really satisfying. I was like, you're weird. Really? You're not right in the head. But, you know, to each their own. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, not for me. I'm not a nice pregnant person. So in this pregnancy, did you have any flare-ups? In my first pregnancy, I didn't. It really, really dampened it down. That must have been like a load off your mind. Yeah, it was quite... Because I was in a flare kind of when I got pregnant.

18:24Not a really bad one, just my kind of usual... Like I said, almost like my base level of like when I'm having a flare, I'd say like just low level where I'm aware of it all the time. but it's not massively impacting like me yeah but it kind of really dampened it down so I was going to these like appointments with the um what the pregnancy doctor's called the midwives no the gynecologist that's it I was like what I was going OBGYN I was like that's really American but I think that's the gynecologist and then my gastro consultants as well um and they were kind of like oh we'll monitor you we'll just because there is stuff we can put you on if we need to because obviously there's some medications that I've been on which you absolutely couldn't be on pregnant like the immunosuppressants and stuff that maybe wouldn't work but I seem to be fine and then like I say second time round wasn't really in a flare going in but it seemed to exacerbate massively and I just couldn't get it under control and there was so little they could really give me it was just like well just wait this out and I mean for those I guess who don't know about flare-ups when they happen yours would get so bad that when you were that's why you left teaching yeah it it just so osteocolitis is delightful in a number of ways um which it's it's kind of chronic inflammation of of the colon so first symptoms out the gate it's like kind of urgency diarrhea bleeding cramping and then there's kind of the secondary stuff like osteoporosis and just whole body inflammation and I think yeah when I was teaching what I've learned is that stress is a real real trigger for me yeah and I as much as I loved teaching it was stressful it's maybe not the ideal career for somebody that doesn't I don't handle stress generally very well um yeah and it just it just got to the point where it's a bit untenable there's only so many times you can leave the classroom with 30 teenage boys in it to go to the loo or to kind of try and sort yourself out yeah and then come back each time and expect there not to be chaos yeah yeah but yeah it just got to the point where it just wasn't really and I didn't want to be off a lot yeah like I I had really good relationships with the other staff and I had really good relationships with some of the pupils and I thought and and a lot of the time teaching works because of the relationships you can build with them and I thought it's just not fair to be there one day they're not the next and them have no consistency with it it just wouldn't have been kind of conducive to them doing well yeah so knowing how bad they they can get though going into pregnancy it must have been just and not knowing especially your second one just not knowing what was going to happen and yeah get a handle on it well I think I mean anyone that's been pregnant any little twinge any little cramp it's impossible to not and I and I've been incredibly lucky that I haven't experienced really a negative pregnancy yeah like colitis flirts aside I've been very very lucky so and I was still that anxious so like if your whole body goes into quite a violent cramp I was just like there's just no way a baby can cling on in that like My whole body is trying to turn itself inside out for days on end.

21:48So that it was worrying. But like I say, nothing bad came of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's just trying to ride it through as much as you can. But if only you could tell yourself that when you're going through it. Yeah. If someone could go, this will be fine. And come December, you will have your little baby. But, you know, like nothing's certain till it's certain, is it? Like they're not there until they're there. and you know we all know people and we all know friends and you all have the stories and it just yeah nothing is certain until it's well nothing's ever certain is it that feeling of not knowing whether that twinge and that cramp is colitis or whether it's something that's happening with the baby or whether it's going to trigger something else whether your body's going to go into a whole immune response and go no no we'll reject everything it just but yeah all was well that ended well but there was a bit of me that like when we were talking before about a third and stuff.

22:45I almost feel like we've been so lucky, given everything I've got going on. We've been so lucky twice. There was a little bit like, I'm not going to push my luck. Like, I'm good. They're good. I think so many people will relate to that. Yeah, let's leave. Yeah. Yeah, leave well alone now. Yeah, it's almost that thing, you're kind of asking too much. Yeah, like, we're so lucky, let's just draw a line under that and not push it anymore. Yeah. Did you come to peace with that quite quickly, the idea of not having a third? Yes, because I think at the point we were thinking, we were so in the midst of the chaos.

23:26The girls were exactly two years apart, which in a lot of ways I think was brilliant because we never got out of the chaos. We just went back in. So it was like one big plaster rip of sleeping, eating, taking the bags of stuff out, tantrums on the floor, you know, holidays which were spent marching up and down with a kind of sweaty baby in a buggy trying to get them to sleep. We never got out of that before we went back into it. And then we didn't have a third for long enough that we got out of that phase. and then the thought of kind of one pushing my luck and then going back into it, that window of opportunity, we got further and further away from the chaos.

24:07And it, yeah. Into that new chapter. Into the new chapter where they're like, we'll sit on a plane. Yeah. And they will, they sit and read. They got Kindles for Christmas and they sit and they read and I look at them and I'm like, who are you? And what have you done with the screaming banshees that I tried to kind of take to dinner last week? Like, yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, they have their moments. But I did look at them over Christmas and they were both reading. And I was like, oh, my God. It's a nice little... We've hit a milestone here. Yeah. Ours are currently playing chess. Oh. And a really nice, like, they shake hands after it.

24:45Oh, that's very civilised. Yeah, so the one that's not playing will just sit on the end and just watch. it's so bizarre because you do kind of go hold on a minute something's happened here it wasn't that long ago that you were just thumping each other like where has this come from yeah it's funny how it does just and obviously it must happen a bit gradually but then it's that kind of moment of clarity where you go oh well everyone's just kind of diddling doing their own thing and everyone's happy and no one needs me for a moment but what do you do in those moments because I find myself we're talking about this I find something to worry about normally I find something to worry about I find something to do.

25:23Like, I'm constantly, like, I will be in the kitchen wiping things down. I will find the jobs, even though, really, I should be kind of going, great, I'll have a cuppa. That's where I, what Rob calls the unnecessary jobs. That's where I start going, oh, I'm going to personalise some party bags. And go like, well, for why? Those kids don't care. They're kind of three days later with, like, bits of vinyl stuck to my hair, crying at the cricket because I can't make it linked to that. But I'm like, no, no, they will all have their name on them because otherwise I've failed as a mother. You know, though, that when that party bag goes to the recipient's house, that the mum is just thinking, how long until I can get rid of it?

26:05Yeah. Do you know what I mean? That's me. Yeah. Why is there? What is this? When can I throw it away? How long until they won't notice that it's in the bin? That it's in there. No, I know. I have tried to do I mean I was that mum one year that like I wrapped up a book and I was just like as I was doing it I was like oh you smug cow like no one likes you like don't be that person so then I stuck a big bar of chocolate on the front as well so I was like no one wants to be that person my daughter was having a Moana party and I'd seen these like Moana books in the works so then I was like oh can I have 24 of them please yeah but then I felt the need for balance I stuck some sugar on the front no one's really

26:57normally I'm like full of the plastic tat and whatever but yeah that year I was really feeling feeling myself I'm going to be that mum have a book wrapped in ecologically sound brown paper you said something in the book somewhere about cosplaying sometimes we cosplay as that mum that we want to be I still don't feel like I'm, and I know I'm old enough to be a parent because I am a parent. I'm 39 years old. It's not like I'm 22 with, like, a seven-year-old. But I still feel like sometimes I'm playing a character of myself. And I look at, like, and especially at school, I'd say, look at the other mums or we have a chat or something, and I'm like, do you actually know what you're doing?

27:37Or is it just me? You know, and you kind of want to go, like, are we all doing it? Or do you all have your shit together? Because I seem to, and I'm class rep this year, and I'm, oh God, it's not good. I did say at the beginning of the year, I was like, I'm happy to do it. No one else wanted to do it. And the lady that had done it the last few years desperately wanted to step down. I think she'd have enough of everyone's stuff. And I was like, I'm happy to do it as long as we're all accepting there's going to be a real tangible drop in standards. Like I will pass on an email and I'll buy the Christmas presents.

28:10But that's, she used to do a Sunday night bulletin of everything that was needed for the week. Oh wow. And I was like, no, no, no, it's not my wheelhouse. But, yeah, I just, I still don't feel sometimes, it's almost like a bit of an outer body experience where I was like, I go, and especially at parents' evening, that's the biggest one. And, like, I was a teacher. I really should know more about what I'm talking about or what I'm doing. I just feel like I'm playing a character, like, oh, hello. I'm so-and-so's mummy. Nice to meet you. It's really hard to marry as well, who you were before with who you are in that role?

28:45Yes. Yeah, there's a real seismic change, I think, almost from the point you get pregnant. Yeah. That it is... I can't remember if it was the blog or the book or probably both ways. Sometimes it's like the first and only thing people notice about you or ask about because it is the most important. Like, they are the most important thing that I've got and that I will do. but yeah it's sometimes it's hard to remember who you were before that was the biggest thing about you that yeah be a parent's evening sends me on a really i do it i'm like a full character actor hello nice to be i do my full in your blight voice again and i'm like you know when they go at the end if you want any questions for me and i'm like i need to have questions i'm like no but it is it's the thing in that moment you are your child's representative Yeah.

29:38You know what I mean? I'm like, I should have questions. I should have some real insightful educational questions. And I'm always like, are they kind? Which I don't think is important. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's generally the kind of, I go like, are they nice to people? Do they make you want to cry when you go home? Is that my one or is that the others? But, I mean, yeah, no teacher's ever said they've made them cry. So I feel I'm doing my job, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And as a teacher, though, you know what that's like to have that difficult relationship. Yeah, I am alert for the phrases where I'm like, oh, that's not a good phrase.

30:23That's spirited, likes to contribute, keen to share their ideas. There's a, yeah, where you go like, oh, that's good. And you go, oh, I don't know if that one is actually. How did you feel heading towards the births? First birth, no experience of anything like that before. How did it feel? I'd say wildly optimistic and naive. Were you? I had a birth plan. Nice. I was all like, we'll do this, then we'll do this. What did you have in your mind of what it would look like? When I have a really bad colitis flare, the bottom of my back goes, which someone said was quite light labour, and it was actually that kind of real bottom pain in the bottom of your back.

31:04I used to get in a really hot bath, and that would kind of help the flare, not completely, but it would really help the flare subside. So I was like, when they said about kind of a warm pool to give birth in and to help ease pain, I was like, actually, yeah, I think that would be really, that would be really helpful. So that was, I kind of said I would have any medical intervention that was needed if they thought it was necessary. Like do whatever you need. I'm a big fan of medicine, doctors and, you know, whatever needed to be done. But in my head, I was like, I'm going to have a lovely birth in the birth centre and I'm going to be, much like I went into pregnancy, I was like, I'm going to be great at this.

31:40I'm going to be really like mother earth. I'm only going to eat organic food. I'm not going to drink any more Coke Zero. I'm just going to drink water and, you know, no caffeine, no sugar, no. And I didn't. I ate kind of salt and vinegar crisps and full fat Coke until six months pregnant. Like that was basically what my daughter is made of. Right. And I kind of went into birth the same way where I was like, do you know what, I think I might be really good at this because my pain threshold is really high. I'm really good at dealing with cramps and I don't complain. And then it was awful. Nothing can prepare you for it.

32:13And people go like, oh, didn't you enjoy it a little bit? No. But also you had the thing where you were asking for pain relief and you were just being told, not yet, not yet. Yeah, they kept telling me. And again, no shade to them. They're amazing. But I think where I went in and I wasn't, I hadn't been in labour for very long, but I was throwing up copiously. Like my body had completely emptied itself. It had gone back into its kind of colitis thing of like one way or the other, everything is coming out. So I was really dehydrated. So I kind of been sent home once saying, well, you haven't been contracting long enough.

32:54You're not far enough along. And I was like, I think I need some help. I need something here. I can't, I wasn't really compos mentis in between contractions. so I went home and then my mum came round and Rob and my mum took me back in and were like she's not this isn't and again kind of you know they they check you I wasn't very far along but because I was so dehydrated they sent me up to the labour ward so I didn't even go through the doors of the birth centre never even crossed the threshold I went from triage straight up to the labour ward to be put on a drip just for hydration yeah and I kind of kept saying this is this is moving quite fast I need some pain relief they kept getting told I wasn't there yet and I think I responded out of what was probably pure spite and my body went two to ten in like just under two hours so by the time they came back in my mum had pressed the button because my waters had gone there was meconium in it it's and they were like oh no you need to push now and I was like but can I have some pain relief they're like no too late I was like but I've asked for this I've spent two hours asking for this and like I say my body just went really quickly which I mean I like to think it was me being petty because I made everyone panic at that point there was a conium everywhere my mum pressed the button she was a nurse as well so she's opening the cupboards trying to find things it was yeah Rob took off his trousers at one point when my waters went I was like my trousers are all wet so he was like have mine the midwife came back in and Rob's like in his pants with his trousers around his ankles.

34:23And she was just like, no, no. She doesn't need trousers now because the baby's coming out. Just panic. I think it was just general panic. And there was a little bit of me that was just like, yeah, told you. Told you, I knew, I knew. I told you. They're just going, it's your first, but you don't have a frame of reference for it. And I was like, no, I know, but I understand pain. Yeah. And if I'm in pain and you have some drugs that can help me not be in pain. Give me the drugs. It feels like we could put these two hands together. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

34:58After that, did everything happen quite quickly? Yeah, she was out really quickly. Like I say, it was... I don't remember pushing for that. I mean, I wasn't really with it. Yeah. To me, it doesn't feel like it was very long. And then she was there. You described it as not a negative birth, but not empowering or positive. I didn't feel listened to and like I know I hadn't had a baby before but like I've I know my body yeah and I think it's very very hard when it's your first to go in without feeling like you're being like this some kind of mega bitch like no listen to me and it's very much not in my and I think probably most women's nature to not be really forceful and demanding yeah and so if everyone's following protocols of no but we wait until you're this many centimeters or we wait until this point or we try and do everyone on the least amount of pain relief possible but it just to me didn't feel very logical to be like I'm in the most pain I've ever been in and I have been now for hours help me like I need some help and actually I don't need a frame of reference for the pain because I'm in pain.

36:14Yeah. Or I was asking for help and I just didn't feel like I was being listened to. That's hard. That's hard. That's hard afterwards as well to kind of reflect on it and go, that wasn't the best of experiences. I think the next day we had to stay in because they wanted to monitor her because obviously she had pooed in the waters. Yeah. But the next day, like she hadn't latched properly at hospital, but I just wanted to go. I just wanted to go home and be by myself. Well, not by myself. Like, Rob was there. My mum came home. Rob's mum was there and stuff. But, like, I just wanted to leave. And I think we never got the hang of breastfeeding.

36:54She never. She was weenie as well. She was only 5 '8". Full term, but just so round, but very, very small. And between us, we just never got it. Yeah. And I don't know whether if I'd stayed, because they were like, stay for the day. We've got breastfeeding class. And I was like, let me leave. I just want to go home. I just, I felt, I think, very overwhelmed and very kind of overstimulated by everything. I just wanted to take my baby and go home. Yeah. But then I got home and was like, fuck, I've got to keep this alive now and I can't feed you. And it just, yeah. So I think probably I could have had a calmer run into it than I had.

37:34Well, and breastfeeding is something that you've spoken about before as well because it put you in a really not the best headspace? No. I think I drove myself a bit mad with it. And when you combine it with, like, the hormonal floods you get after birth anyway and that kind of slight baby blues. I don't think I had postnatal depression, but I wasn't right. Yeah. And I don't think I was getting right because I was so preoccupied with breastfeeding. And I didn't have, I don't want to kind of denigrate Rob and my mum's roles in this because they were really, really, really supportive. But they were supporting me in what I wanted to do.

38:19But what I wanted to do was madness. So they were being really supportive. And what I probably needed was like a voice that was like, this is insane. You can stop this and they'll be fine. Like you've tried your hardest. Well, you had that thing in your head that I think a lot of women put on themselves that that is what they have to do. they have to breastfeed like you have to do it breast is best and you have to do it and you're capable of doing it and it's nature's way and that's what a woman's body was designed to do and you go and women have been doing it since the dawn of time and you go yeah but a lot of babies starve to death yeah yeah so you know and there were wet nurses yeah and you know like we have been doing it for the dawn since the dawn of time but not always successfully or not always by yourself and it just I got in a real and again I think everyone was trying to be supportive like the midwives and health visitors that came we're all trying to be supportive but what I probably needed was somebody to just go you're driving yourself mad like I was pump we I pumped exclusively for months and I never had loads of milk I was never more than like one bottle a head so it was like every three hours pump and then spend an hour feeding her because she was really weenie, so she didn't eat.

39:31And it just, I was like, that bloody machine. Honestly, that...

39:39Actually traumatising. There was an Instagram video and it was in it, and I was like, no, no. You start twitching. But I just need, I think I needed, like, somebody else to step in and be like, no, it's okay. Stop it. And actually, it was so liberating when we stopped. how do you think it affected your mental health leading up to that moment of stopping I think I just no one's getting very much sleep with a newborn yeah but I think between the pumping and also kind of almost constantly feeling like a failure and again I was the only one doing it I was the only one really judging me but I'd be out with my bottle of breast milk feeding my baby with my friends that most of which were breastfeeding I like the little NCT group that I've made friends with and I almost wanted to kind of say to the whole cafe this is breast milk by the way I'm not cheating and I look yeah as long as your baby is fed it does not matter like no one really gives a shit yeah I mean there were some people that feel very very very strongly about it and that's them more power to them yeah but if you're driving your kind of physical and mental health off a cliff in the quest for something that really yes in an ideal world that is best but that is also formula is perfectly fine yeah and in a way I almost trust science more than I trust my body I know what I eat that is all coke zero fruit pastels and crisps like at least in that tub I know what's in it kind of trust science more than I do my own diet at that point to be honest but like it it's I kind of that's I because I wrote something yeah I'd written a little bit in Rob's book and then I expanded on it slightly afterwards of just like it's fine yeah like we feel horrible about most things most of the time don't give yourself something else to feel awful about because it was fine but you were both going through so much I think that um becoming a new parent I think we often it is very romanticized it's that thing of you know when we see people talking about parenthood it's always so amazing and having a new bundle and isn't that amazing but actually as a couple you're going through a monumental change and you you were going through everything through all of that Rob has talked about how he had a really low mood and depression at that time so you're both kind of a little bit lost but in this new world that you're meant to be really happy in that's meant to be really idyllic and if you kind of you're almost afraid to say that oh god like this because you can't put the baby back yeah you can't shut the door once the horse has bolted not that I wanted to I didn't want to not have her but it was a bit like oh god what have we done yeah like nothing will ever be the same again because it she's here now and it that's a real kind of plot twist to reconcile in in even if you like we planned her we wanted her we it was all very very wanted but you kind of go like oh my god yeah this is forever yeah no one's coming to help yeah this is just but when you are depleted in every single way that is such a hard yeah I don't know a way that you can get around it but actually starting off your parenting journey after nine months of pregnancy and labor is I think possibly the worst point to be given a tiny little baby to look after you're like I'm sorry my hormones are all over the place I'm physically exhausted I need to go to a retreat I don't need to look after a baby and I've got to feed that from my body I've got to make the stuff just well I'm sorry like I've done my bit this is your job now I'm tapping out see you in nine months I've done my part yeah it's just a really I yeah and it surprised me it really surprised me how much I was like oh my god I don't know who I am or what I am or what we are or or I don't know how we function there was just so much change so rapidly to get your head round even though it's lovely change and it's lovely and it's delicious and like oh let's caveat it Lou yeah caveat and say oh we're so grateful I'm really grateful I I love my children, I love my life.

44:11But the reality is... Tees and C's at the bottom of the page. But the reality is it's such a difficult time and I think what makes it tougher in lots of ways is when people say, oh, isn't it amazing? You must be having the best time to soak it up because it won't last forever. And you're like, fucking soak it up? I'm in survival mode. you don't know when it's the last time they'll crawl into it, good, I hope it's the last time stop it stop it Sandra I don't know who Sandra is I don't know who Sandra is I always say Joan, Tom's nan's called Joan Joan would never say anything mean I'm always like oh Joan mine's up with Sandra so apologies to any Sandras but yeah I just it's that when they go like oh but you know you don't know the last time they'll savour this, it's really hard to savour it when you're so tired your eyeballs want to fall out of your head i remember i was pushing my daughter around a park in hither green and i think it was when we were trying to get her onto her cow's milk free formula so this didn't help with the end of breastfeeding we decided to put on to formula and then within about three weeks found out that she was very allergic to cow's milk so she was projectile vomiting everywhere and like bile and it was it was not not great yeah so I was like oh that's my fault I've done that because if I just carried on with that machine we wouldn't have and so I was trying to get her to take this like hideous tasting I don't know why they don't make it taste nicer because I wouldn't have wanted to drink it either it was really bitter and horrible and I ran into another mum who I think had been in the NCT group before me so her baby was a little bit older but not that much older and she was in like white jeans wow like and she looked amazing and her hair was done and I looked like the lady from home alone that feeds the pigeons like it it was not it was not my finest hour I don't know what like it just and you know she was like hi and I was like oh fuck off just fuck off for a minute will you like just go away like in your white skinny jeans and like and I don't know what her morning had been like to get to the point where she'd got out like that I don't know what her night had been like but in that moment I was like just fuck off just leave me alone don't look at me I don't want anyone to see me like this or and like she was, daughter was screaming it was all just but yeah you just don't know you don't know what's going on I've also had it where I don't believe people when they tell me it's great do you know what I mean?

46:40and I know that for some people it is great and that's great but sometimes it almost makes me want to look a little bit like keep a closer eye in a way because is that performative? Is that someone playing the role of being the perfect mum and actually not feeling like they can let it out? Yes, because I think there's so much... I don't want to be really negative, but I think sometimes it does feel like people are waiting to jump on the... So you don't like your children, you don't like being a mum. But some people are desperate to be a mum, some people can't be a mum. That's really ungrateful.

47:15And you kind of go, I know, I know all of these things, but I found this morning hard. and I think, and for a long time I don't think I wanted to like, let's say, writing it was so cathartic because it kind of got it all out in a way that and I don't, and it's not, I'm making it sound like it's just a really negative It's not a negative book, it's really funny and it's a, I love it I just wanted to be a bit more honest with it so that either if you're reading it, it's either validating or maybe if you haven't had kids yet or you're thinking about or you're pregnant or you're in the very early stages you kind of go, alright, it's not just me or this bit's quite normal and then you come out through the other side and this is...

47:52It's that, right? So I think if someone had said to me before giving birth, because nothing like this was out 11 years ago, if someone had said to me there'll be a moment where you think, what have I done? Can I send him back? I would have in that moment laughed and go, oh, this is normal. This is a phase. Yeah. We'll go through it and out the other side you go, this is my delicious little baby. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to me about your second birth. Because obviously this time round, you do have a frame of reference. I did have a frame of reference. I, again, would like to offer a formal apology to the lovely midwives, the Princess Royal in Locksbottom, because I did go in as a raging bitch.

48:34Did you? I was the most demanding I've ever been. And, like, I am normally, I'm so polite. I'm to the point where, you know, I'm that really classic. Someone bumps into me, I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry. You know, I get bought the wrong food. I'm like, no, no, it's fine, I'll eat it. I can't actually eat lamb, but I'll eat it anyway. You know, like that. I was just like, I'm not going home. I'm going to sit downstairs. You will not send me home. I went two to ten last time. I'm not going to. Do you think it was anxiety of what had happened before? I think I was having a low-level panic attack. Right.

49:05And she was so nice. She examined me and she was like, you're three, let's call it four, because we can send you upstairs then if you're four. She was like, three, almost four. and then my waters went and she was like, do you want to see the birth suite? And I was like, no, I want an epidural. And she was like, okay, straight upstairs. And I just felt, and I don't know whether it was my second because it was my second. I don't know if it's just different hospital, different, obviously it was a couple of years apart, maybe protocols had changed. But I just felt like everything I said was really, really listened to.

49:39Like I was like, I said it moved really quickly last time. So I don't, like I'm not going home. I will just wait downstairs in Costa and scare people with my kind of like in the back. And she was like, okay, fine, go upstairs. We're going to put you in a room. And then I was assigned midwife. And also, again, different protocols, but that midwife stayed with me the whole time. So when she left the room, someone else came in. I was with someone the whole time and that hadn't happened in my previous birth. So she was there the whole time. And when I said I wanted to Nepajew, she was like, do you want to try pet?

50:11And I was like, nope. She was like, fine. so then she basically stood in the doorway waiting for the anaesthetist to come out of a c-section so he could come in and i think because i thought i'd gone into active labor while they were doing the epidural because i was i think i was panicking i was way away from it like i wasn't anywhere near ready to push but i think i was panicking so much that my breathing had changed so she was like are you pushing and i was like no no i'm not pushing i promise i promise i'm not pushing i promise and she was like oh do you promise you're not starting to push but i think just felt very very listened to yeah and like kind of everything I and then when the epidural went in someone who's never done drugs it's the closest I can imagine like hard proper drugs being like just utter relief it's all pain and thought and kind of consciousness left my body and I was like this is lovely I had a nap I read a magazine it was and it probably did slow it down I know they say that epidurals can slow it down but like mine's quite quick anyway so I think it's slow probably slowed it down she says with no medical knowledge or expertise whatsoever slowed it down to what felt like quite a nice measured yeah the only thing I couldn't do was I didn't realize you couldn't eat once you'd had an epidural right in case you have to go in for a c-section so like Rob had gone to the M &S garage and came back with like two full bags of everything that I could possibly have ever and a Ferrero Rocher tower oh it was just before Christmas and they were selling like I mean that is nice I mean yeah we get it out every year now it's our little yeah like it sits It's not the end of our kitchen.

51:42But yeah, I made him sit in the toilet and eat his sandwich. Nice. I didn't want to watch him eat. I was like, you can eat it, but in there. And he looked at the midwife and she was like, in there. I was like, no one's on your side. Take your sandwich in the toilet. But yeah, it was lovely. Just felt very, very calm. Yeah. Very. And I think, maybe I just went into it different, but I said with her, I was like, if she won't breastfeed, I'm just going to go to formula. I'm not, we're not doing the pump. We're not messing around with it. she can either do it or she can't and we'll stray on and I was like oh I was all ready to go maybe I breastfed better almost because of that I'd already given myself permission to go we're not doing this if it doesn't work we're just calling it and moving on and again I only breastfed maybe to keep things fair and he really breastfed her exclusively for three months and then I gave her because I was like well fair's fair now I got to a certain point with Buzz and then I was like well I've got to do the other two exactly the same like to the month is exactly the same yeah it's mad isn't it you go like oh you can't have more than she did what if you're taller and it's all my fault you know what if your hair grows longer like I don't give this kind of madness but yeah we got to three months and I was like do you know what I think I'm all right if you feed her now Rob I think I'm okay with that like I'd almost it's terrible because you shouldn't have to prove something to yourself or into anybody else but I almost felt like I proved to myself that I could do it it wasn't I didn't try hard enough it wasn't I gave up too easy or I it just was a quirk of the system for whatever reason it worked second time that it didn't the first and that there is no rhyme or reason just because you've done something once it doesn't mean you could be able to do it again or vice versa so I was like once I'd almost satisfied that little itch I was like okay I'm good now and I love being able to pass them over to other people's feed yeah you know when They go like, oh, they're hungry.

53:33They need you. No, they don't need me. They need anyone with a hand. That's what they need. It doesn't have to be me. I found that really liberating. How did you feel mentally the second time around? I think more prepared because I think the big change had already come. I kind of, yeah, I think I'd already, that big first change of like, oh, my God, what's happened to my life and me. I got to that kind of acceptance by that point and I was in it and I was enjoying it and I was on a roll and, you know, I had my routines and I had my friends and I knew what I was doing. I felt like I knew what I was doing a lot more.

54:12And I almost, I think, almost enjoyed it a bit more second time round. It sounds awful. No. My first daughter ever listens to this. You're very loved. I love you too and I enjoyed it. But, you know, it was a different kind of, because it's known, isn't it? Yeah. And there was bits that I go, I'm going to do this bit a bit differently or this is what I wish I'd bought a bit earlier or this is a class that I really enjoyed. Not that, you know, my second daughter didn't enjoy the same classes my first one did and learnt my lesson very quickly to not sign on to a whole term until they've each individually tried it.

54:44But, yeah, I think I enjoyed it second time because I kind of felt like I knew what I was doing a bit more. I was less panicky because I was like, okay, they will sleep. They will eat. We'll all get there eventually. and yeah, I kind of, and I quite like having my little mates. Yeah. Like it's quite nice. Yeah. Like it's quite nice, the understatement of the year. Being a mum, it's quite nice. It's quite nice having a mate. Talking about mates, one thing you do talk about in the book is the roommate phase between a couple and how quite often you can be touched out and overstimulated and kind of just that, not needing that extra person to leave anything from you.

55:27That like real, get off me, just no more things today. Yeah. Yeah. And that is, that is real. Yeah. Whether people want to admit it or not. And again, if you're managing and if you're in that phase where you're like, I can't get enough of them, more power to you. Like, quite frankly, but like not, you know, not now, but you know, it's... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or you just go, I'm, no. Like, we are just, and there is big chunks of time where you're just getting from A to B. Yeah. And I think it is hard, but almost being able to accept that and talk about it and be quite grown up about it, where you go, it doesn't mean I don't love you, and it doesn't mean I don't love us.

56:19And I think if you don't almost talk about it, that I can see where it would really cause problems or it could, you know, what is it? Fester? Yeah, things can really fester in that there's a stout, I think Anna referenced it, where marriages, I can't remember the exact thing now. Okay. It's in there, Anna told me. You really want to know. Yeah, it's in there. It's probably on Google as well, but no, buy the book. Anna Williamson is in the book, who's just contributed to the chapter. Yeah, as a kind of relationships expert and so just listening to me go, don't touch me. Some actual, legit, proper relationships advice.

57:02So like a lot of marriages fail within that first couple of years because of you get in that roommate, ships in the night, almost like a work relationship of like, who's doing this and doing that. And it's just, it's really hard because it's so labour intensive. those first few bits, first few years, sorry. And I think they take so much from you physically that they need. Babies need to be held and need to be fed and getting them to sleep. And it's so physical and it's lovely. And I love that bit, you know, when they're warm and on you and it's lovely. But the point where you've done that for most of the day and then half the night as well and you put them down, I just don't want anything or anyone to touch me.

57:45Like I didn't want the cat on me. I didn't want, I'm always glad we didn't have the dogs when the girls were little, because I would have been like, get off. I don't want any contact. You just need a bit of, look at me, I'm like, just need some space. And it's really hard to kind of communicate that to your partner if they haven't been doing that all day. If they've been out at work and they want to come home and feel like they've come home to their kind of partner and they want a bit of love and attention and nurturing. and I'm like, ugh, get off me. Like I can't have something else touch me today.

58:22Like it can be, I guess it can be, I imagine it can be really hard not to feel very, very rejected in that unless you're really honest with it. It's just like, I do love you, just don't want to touch you. Or for you to touch me. Yeah. That wasn't an invite. Yeah, no touching. Yeah. Pillow. But, you know, but it passes. Yeah. You pass it and you come out of it and you've just got to talk to each other about it. Yeah, I think it's really important. Yeah. If you could write a letter on motherhood, who would it be to and what would you say? I was thinking about this before and my first thought was that I'd write it to myself.

59:03Yeah. But I think I've almost done that. Okay. I think telling myself a lot of the things that I would be looking out for and like it's okay and don't feel bad. and I think I'd write it to my girls now so that if they ever became, I feel all teary thinking about them being mum. Yeah.

59:21It's really not that deep, Louise. I don't know why I'm crying. Oh, my God. But also, you've got a different thing than I do, right? Like, my boys won't experience parenthood in the same visceral way as a mum does. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's very different. I think... So having children that are girls that you know how they... Yeah, if that's what they choose, and they might not, and more power to them, but if that's what they choose to do, I kind of... I think because I can see a lot of what they might feel and experience because I've been there, it'd be that kind of, it's all going to be okay, and whatever you feel and however you experience it is okay, and I'll be there as much as I'm allowed to be without being that mom that's like, I'm here again.

1:00:12Give me my baby. Like, I probably will be that grandmom that's like, I'm here. I have a key. I'm in. Give me the baby. But like, and that it's all okay. And that whatever they feel and however they want to cope with it, I will be there and I will support them. And I will be there for like the sunset scaries and the, and the, I'll be there canary in the coal mine of like, I think you're losing your marbles. Have a bottle. like that kind of yeah I think it'd be to my girls about just lean into it and don't worry about it because I wasted so much time worrying and feeling bad about something that I didn't need to feel bad about and I it's almost inevitable that they will feel that way yeah but if I can alleviate any of it by kind of going this is how I felt and this is how I feel and this is how brilliant it was in the midst of all of that worry and guilt and feeling like you're failing.

1:01:09And that actually, like, I came through it. Yeah. And, you know, you will and give me the baby. I'll help. I wonder what that's going to be like watching them go through, like if they go down that path, like watching them. I imagine it must feel really helpless as like the mum where you kind of go, oh, I can see it all coming. And they'll have that same naive optimism of like, this is my birth plan and I'm going to have whale music. And I'll be like... No, you won't. But that's the thing, right? You're going to put yourself. It's going to be awful. But you have to sit there and go, mm-hmm. Yeah, you go, oh, that's lovely for you, dear.

1:01:42Yeah. Well, you're going to eat organic, are you? Oh, lovely. Yeah. You're going to feed them all homemade dinners? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You ate quavers till you were four. You know, and I will be there. Yeah. As much as they will let me or their partner will let me. someone I had that realisation once of you know when your kids are younger and they draw their family and you know it's all of you in the family, you're in the picture right at some point if they were to draw their families you would no longer be in it don't mean you're taken out I'm going to write a letter to my children you won't even be in their drawing thanks

1:02:27the family circle changes right? Yeah. Like if I was in my family my mum and dad wouldn't be in it. No. And you want it too. Like I want that for them. But isn't it so weird? I'm sorry I'm only booted off the end of that paper. Yeah. You're off the WhatsApp chat. Do you know what I mean? It's not. No you're out of the picture. Yeah. Yeah do you know what? My mum was really offended the first time I put Rob down as my emergency contact. It's a big deal. Yeah. I went in for a colonoscopy and she was like what time am I picking you up? And I was like oh Rob is. And she was like sorry. I was like, oh, Rob's going to come and get me.

1:03:00She was like, all right, fine. I was like, you can come if you want. She was like, no, no, if you don't want me. I was like, I don't want you. It's just that I don't think we need a team of us there to watch me have things up for me. Like, I don't, we're good. But yeah, no, it's, yeah, I won't be on that paper one day. I'm so sorry, Lou. That's all right.

1:03:26Lou, could you please complete these three sentences? Yes. The first one is being a mum means?

1:03:38Too much and not enough all in the same sentence. Since having children, I? have learned I have reserves that I didn't know I had of energy and patience and rage and all of I have emotional reserves that I didn't know I had I didn't realize I could feel things as deeply for both good and bad and and all of it but actually it's it's been a real kind of reforging I guess of of yourself and go oh actually I didn't know I was capable of as much at the same time as going, oh, makes you really think about, well, actually, what do I need and want and all of those things? And what do I want for you? And how can I facilitate that?

1:04:24Yeah, so it's a real expansion of yourself, I think. I like that. And finally, I'm happy when? Oh, when we're all together. It's nice. We're a... My girls are very, very silly and Rob's very silly and it's a nice, I like it when we're all together being silly. Yeah. And that can be wherever. Obviously it's lovely when it's on holiday, but it's also lovely when it's just in the living room. You know, like that real togetherness and especially the ages that they are, I feel like we're kind of sometimes, like not all the time, because obviously kids have their moments, partners have their moments.

1:05:02We all have moments where we all hate each other and everyone needs to sit quietly in the car and think about what they've done, me and Rob included. But like when we're all together and we're all happy. It's like having little mates now. It's like four little mates and that's really, really nice. It's a really lovely change, isn't it? Yeah, when you're all kind of just out doing something and you can go, oh, we're all doing this and it's lovely and they've got so much personality that sometimes too much. But, you know, it's lovely. That makes me really happy. It's my happy place. I love that.

1:05:38Thank you so much. Thank you. Sorry for snivelling into your microphone. Don't be silly. You're all good. You snivel away. Thank you.