Denise Van Outen on dating as a mum: “if they disapprove, you’ll know”

0:00Denise is a bit hungover. It's like, yeah. Why is it so, he never does that. It's actually going, but it's going mental. Like, literally, it's like I've got diversity doing a show in my stomach. Like, it's literally making so many strange noises. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's guest is someone who I woke up with a lot in the 90s. But she was one of the hosts of The Big Breakfast. She's an amazing actress, an amazing singer. She's also mum to a teenage daughter. It's Denise Van Outen. Oh, thank you. What a lovely intro. That was lovely. Well, I did.

0:39I mean, a lot of us grew up with you in the 90s. It's always funny when people go, I grew up with you in the 90s, because then it just makes me feel really old. I love it. But I do get it, I know. With my kids and stuff, doing things like egg on your face, and then just not knowing where it comes from, not knowing where the origins of that sort of thing comes from. But it's you. You brought so much joy into the mornings. Oh, thank you. Do you know what? I have to say it was the best time. And whenever I bump into people that I worked with on the show, or even crew members, because they're all now like, you know, running the BBC or Netflix or, you know, they've all gone up the ranks.

1:14But it's just, we've just got such a love for that show, you know, just the memories from it and the friendships that we made. And three in particular who were crew members, I still meet them every year. We do it once a year get together. Yeah. And we've watched our kids grow up together, you know, And we just always talk about those days. It was wild and just fun. It felt like the house that everyone wanted to be in. Yes. And it's a real house. That's crazy. I know. And I think it's been on the market recently for a ridiculous amount of money. But, yeah, I do think I'd quite like to go and have a sneaky viewing just to see what they've done with the place.

1:48But you're not tempted to buy it? No. It's ridiculously expensive. Oh, is it? Yeah. But I did think, wouldn't that be quite cool? I thought I could go with Johnny. We could do a viewing. I just want to see if they've knocked down any walls or changed anything. I mean, I want to see that. I want to see you two in that house, just having a look around and reminiscing. I'm sure they've probably changed the decor a little bit. There's probably not curtains with eggs on anymore. No, that's true. That's a shame. More for them. Absolutely. The other thing, we have something in common, because after watching On Big Breakfast, I actually started Sylvia's.

2:18So I went to Sylvia's and Clit School, and you went to Sylvia's for a very long time. And I think when I first started, you were one of those names where I was a bit like, Denise went here. Oh, really? Which is amazing. Yeah, yeah. But what was your childhood like before even going there? So I always say I came out of the womb with jazz hands because I started dancing from the age of three. So I was really young. But it was kind of like, because people go, oh, did you have a pushy parent? It was more to do with the fact that when I was growing up, where we lived, because we moved from the East End of London to Essex for a better life.

2:52to Basildon yeah like a gruffing in so we had the same exactly so you could have a garden do you know what I mean and you could cycle around the street on your bike and all the freedom that was granted then so that was amazing so I started doing the dancing really because it was the only thing to do it was a bit like the girls did dancing the boys did Boy Scouts and that's how it was so that's why I started doing it my sister did it with me as well she's older than me five years older but she gave up on it and I just loved it from such a young age It was just something I really enjoyed. Then I started doing modelling as a kid because I got scouted for a few jobs.

3:27And then I started incorporating all of the singing and the acting. And then I got in Les Mis. So then at the age of 11, and that's when I went to Sylvia's. Because I needed to go to a drama school because my normal school wouldn't allow me to have the time. Wouldn't they? No. But they just wouldn't allow me to have the matinee days off just because of the licensing laws. and that's why I went to Sylvia's really so that I could do the show and I just loved Sylvia's. I loved it so much from the day I started. What was the reaction of people around, like wider family and friends of you going into London?

4:00Because it's quite a big deal to travel into London to go to school. Oh, it used to take me three hours. Did it? Yeah. I mean, when I think about it now, you wouldn't do it now because I would never let my daughter Betsy travel like that. I used to travel in from Essex and I used to get a coach that dropped me to an embankment station and then I'd get the tube to Baker Street and then onto Mollivone, you know, or I'd walk. And, yeah, it would take me three hours door to door and I'd do it on my own from the age of 11, which is crazy because now my daughter's 15 and she wants to even go to the shops with her friends and I'm, like, panicking and I'm tracking where she is because I'm panicking.

4:35But it was a different time, I think, as well. But there's an amazing sense of independence, I think, that comes from that because my journey wasn't like yours. Mine from Ingate Stone, you could literally go straight from Ingate Stone to Liverpool Street and then it's Metline and then I'd walk from Baker Street. So actually that was really easy. Yes. But you having to get on a coach and things like that, that's very different. Yeah, it was. And it was because of where we lived at that time. So it was a long journey. But I think also it is good actually because I did have that freedom as well. And it made me grow up quite quickly.

5:06And also when I look now at my daughter, I've wrapped her in cotton wool so much that I kind of feel like she needs to sometimes, you know, go out into the big wide world a little bit more. but I'm just terrible because it's my only one. When you've got one child, I'm so protective. My friends are like, let her go, let her have her freedom. But it's hard because we hear so many stories now. I think they used to be like, you know, when we were younger, it was that thing of there might be the odd story and your parents would just tell you to be careful because there's this one person. Whereas now I think we hear so many stories, the world seems so small in that way, that actually I don't know if things have actually increased, it's just that we're hearing about it more.

5:41I would guess it's that because obviously when I was younger and even growing up, really, we never had smartphones. You wouldn't have known what was going on. But I do think it's that. I think it's everything that we read online and you freak yourself out. I mean, I'm the worst. I have to sort of not look at things because I get so paranoid. But it's boring because as young teens, before you were teens, we were travelling into London to go to school. That's a long distance. That's a long way from your mum and dad. I did have a mobile. I'm guessing you maybe didn't have a mobile when you first went.

6:13No, I was, this is how old I am now. You remember when the mobile, well, you won't remember, the mobiles first came out was a massive brick phone. I actually did have one of those that, you know, when it first came out. But it was so heavy and massive and I was actually really embarrassed by it. So I never really used it. Yeah. But I started staying in London then because once I'd formed friendships, I had friends that lived in East London and I would stay with them. Yeah. And I'd stay with other friends in Essex. so yeah I wasn't always doing the travel you know sometimes if we had long days we were rehearsing for a show after school I would stay at a friend's house but the nice thing is is that my mum because she was never involved in the business at all but through looking after me on jobs probably because I was traveling so far she became a chaperone so she got a license to look after children my mum's always worked with kids even previous to this she used to work for charities and work with children and yeah so she started chaperoning and she's only just recently retired she's turning 80 but she's chaperoned so many people she's chaperoned Tom did she?

7:19she's chaperoned loads of kids from performers and they all know my mum everyone knows my mum from jobs that they've done I think it's such a lovely job chaperoning yeah and it's amazing how many people come up to me and go I know your mum and I'm like how do you know my mum? they're like she used to chaperone me when I was in The Lion King or I was in Oliver and, you know, all these shows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's kind of known in the West End. I love that she sort of entered that world because of you. And they're like, how did she get into it? Because so many people, like I said, do know her and they love my mum and dad because my dad ended up doing it as well.

7:51So my mum, they worked on, like, Oliver when it was the first time round. They did Lion King for years. So my dad would look after the boys and my mum would look after the girls. And then my mum's worked on the Tina musical and every musical, you know, she's done pretty much. But yeah, it's funny, they're like, how did she get into it? I was like, because of me. So she, you know, they started a whole new career for them as well. So going from your family life, was there, like when you were younger, did you used to think to the future and think, I want a little piece of that for me in my future?

8:23Or were you just completely sort of career driven and going, actually, my focus is on what I want to create? No, do you know what? I never really had a game plan with any of it. Really? I think I just loved, and I mean this genuinely, from the bottom of my heart, I was so happy singing and dancing and performing. The whole fame thing as well was never on my radar. Because we never had shows then, like you have your X Factor or The Voice. So we didn't even know that you could, when you did perform, that that's what you could achieve. You know, like some kids go, I just always wanted to be famous.

8:56I was never that kid. I just wanted to work. and I mean my goal was to be in a West End show and even if it was not even necessarily playing the lead being in the chorus or anything I just wanted to do, be in a show and perform and that was it so the fame thing wasn't something that I was really seeking so yeah I don't know it I think everything sort of has just happened organically in a way it's just kind of like the telly stuff for me all happened kind of by accident because I was never planning to be a TV presenter I heard you didn't realise you were meant to be in for The Weather Girl. Yeah, that's true.

9:32I love this so much. I know. So The Big Breakfast, they were doing auditions and it was to be a new presenter for the show. And I sort of was aware of The Big Breakfast because of Chris and Gabby. And it was just starting to really build an audience and being known as the off-the-wall breakfast show. And a lot of my friends were loving it. Yeah, so I got a casting for it. and I went in and I thought, I just assumed it was for the main presenting role, but it wasn't, it was to be a weather girl. And I was like, I don't know how I'm going to get through this. But you know when you just pull out your old Sylvia Young training and I was just like...

10:12Just say yes to everything. I'll just pretend that I'm, you know, I'll act it. Was there any point in your career where you started thinking, maybe I should think about starting a family? Yes. Yeah, okay. Definitely. and I think what happened was I mean now when I think about it I was 34 when I had Betsy and it felt really old then it is of course now it's not because all my friends had their kids really young and I really did want to be a mum but I was just like more than anything I wanted to be a mum but it was so hard obviously you've got to be in the right relationship and then with the work thing and everything I can understand why some women find it really hard because when you've worked so hard to build a career you kind of don't want to lose that as well so it is hard but I was lucky enough to meet Lee through the Joseph show which I think surprised people that we were together still people even say to me now how did that come about and I was like I'm still really good friends with Lee by the way we've got such a lovely relationship and I'm so proud of it and he is too but yeah and now I go and people go oh now I get it because we seem like chalk and cheese in a way But we've both got exactly the same sort of morals and everything sort of works, you know, especially as co-parenting.

11:30But, yeah, I think I'd met him and we were having a lovely time together. And I was just like, this feels like a good time to now have a start of family. Because I think I was in a good place. I was really was in a good place. And it is also that thing of having relationships that haven't worked, that maybe on reflection weren't great for you. But if you feel like with that person as well, that you have a really good base for friendship and respect for each other, then that's a good place to kind of go, yeah. And we are, in a way, we are really similar. Like our upbringing has been very similar, how we live.

12:08And I look at his mum and dad and my mum and dad and they're still together. so we've got all the same sort of, you know, the approach to relationship and everything. I mean, I know we're not together now but we've still managed to work it all, do you know what I mean? Because we've seen the dynamic and how it needs to be done, do you know what I mean? And they're really lovely, his family, and really helpful and everything. So, yeah, it was an interesting time because I just was so adamant that I was going to carry on working as you do, you know, and you just go... Well, how did you even schedule it to start with?

12:39because obviously you don't know when you're going to get pregnant. So it's really hard kind of going, right, we're okay to try now because, you know, do you have a clear diary? Do you have something that might finish when you're five months pregnant and then you're fine? You know, it's really hard to navigate that. Yeah. Well, I kind of was of the mindset that if it happens, whatever I've got in the diary, we just have to work around it because I'm one of those, you crack on with it. And I was actually supposed to do Legally Blonde with Sheridan Smith and I'd been approached to do it. and then I got pregnant and I couldn't do it.

13:11So eventually I ended up doing it, but I couldn't do it when it first opened. And then I was doing the show for Angela Wood Webber, the TV show, where I was a judge, and then there was this whole hoo-ha because I got dropped from the show and replaced by Charlotte Church, I think it was. And it was all to do with the fact that they were panicking because they said I'd be pregnant on the show and there was, yeah, there was a whole, it made the press. It was quite a big thing at the time. Whereas really they should just let you stay there and be pregnant? Yes, I know. And there's been a lot of denials about whether or not who said what.

13:43But it was said because someone from, unfortunately for them, from the Daily Mail was present when it was said to me. And obviously that's why the story came out, because they heard it being said to me that, oh, you know, she can't possibly do the show if she's pregnant. Because, yeah, anyway. And then Simon Cowell. What's that, especially as a judge on that show? I know. I remember it used to sit in that nice little, like, podium kind of spot, all four of you. I know. And then what the interesting thing was, because it made the press, Simon Cowell, in typical Simon Cowell fashion, had seen it and he was like, and Danny Minogue got pregnant at the same time.

14:22Right. And Danny was a judge on The X Factor and he did the whole, well, we haven't got an issue with it. And so Danny was on the show doing, you know, it was a bit like this rivalry thing with the two networks going, right, well, we're going to accept. and, you know, I mean, at the time it was a pretty big deal but I'm sorry for it now. But I was really upset because I was like, ooh. And also it felt a bit weird as well because I thought, I actually met Lee through one of these shows, you know, and it would have been nice to celebrate that we were together. But anyway. Well, and there is, you know, especially when you kind of, we like to believe that pregnancy or getting pregnant isn't going to affect work.

14:58Like it shouldn't affect work if you're still able to go and do your job in the full capacity. like why should it affect it in any way, shape or form? Yeah, I think it has changed a lot now. People are much more accepting of it but I think then it was, I don't know, it was just a bit of a thing and I understand it put them in a bit of a predicament as well and also bearing in mind, I haven't ruled out the fact that perhaps they already had Charlotte Church lined up. You know, I don't know and maybe it was also a bit of an excuse of, you know, because you know what telly's like. They always want whoever's going to get the most publicity and stuff.

15:31Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I understand that. How did it feel when you found out you were pregnant? Can you remember? Yeah, I can remember because I was doing a one-woman show at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And the reason I thought it was a bit weird was something felt different, was I couldn't stop eating cheese. And it was really weird. I was just craving cheese all the time. And I was doing my show and I'd finish and I wanted either cheese on toast or cheese and onion crisps. It was just like I literally would eat a block of cheese. and my friend jokingly said to me, oh, do you think you might be pregnant?

16:03I went, no. And I didn't even think I was at all. And then I did the show and I was so tired and I was thinking, it's weird because really I don't even know why I hadn't twigged. But I would do the show, go back to my digs, my little apartment and just fall asleep and I was tired all the time. And I thought I was unwell and I was thinking maybe it's exhaustion because I've been working so much. But then when I got home, I remember as clear as anything, I was in my flat in London and I was in bed and I woke up in the middle of the night and I literally felt like I'd feel my hormones, everything, just something surging around my body.

16:41I felt different. I thought, oh, I feel a bit different. So I'll do a test. And Lee was actually away because he was away doing wicked. And so he wasn't with me. And then I did the test and I was like, oh, I am. But it was weird. it was like I knew when I woke up that night in the middle of the night I just knew and it was just a feeling and I suppose by then I was probably three or four weeks pregnant so it was all you know the hormones were really starting to kick in and I was so excited and then I was all really and then I did have panic moments and I was thinking oh what am I going to do because you know well it's only at that point that you could start looking at the diary and kind of going oh and then I was thinking I don't want people to know because you know I wanted to wait until you're sort of safe and everything.

17:29But the jobs that I'm doing, I need to tell people. Do you know what I mean? And they're high-profile jobs in terms of like, I was talking to Sonia, a producer of Legally Blonde, about doing Legally Blonde. I was talking to the BBC and I was like, I can't say I'm ill. How am I going to get around this? It's a hard one, isn't it? Because you're sort of pushed into a corner really to say and you're going, I don't know if I'm ready to say. But yeah, but it obviously all worked out and it was lovely. and then I did agree to do Legally Blonde. I said, but please, because I really wanted to do the part.

18:00Because it was Paulette, which is a really fun role. She's fun. And we know Sheridan Smith is phenomenal. I was like, I really want to do it with Sheridan. And they did say to me, look, as soon as, once she's born and, you know. So I ended up doing the show when Jill Halfpenny ended up doing it and she was amazing. And Jill left and I went in, second cast. And I think Betsy must have been five months old, I think, when I did it. So, again, when I look back, I think, oh, it was quite early to go back and do a West End show. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of time. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I feel like that is a massive commitment, but you don't know what that looks like before the baby arrives.

18:37No, and I've got to be honest, I was fine doing it. I loved, because my mum was helping me out loads, and I loved actually going to work, and just for that couple of hours, I could just run around with all my mates on the show, do you know what I mean, have a bit of a laugh. Feel like you? Yeah, feel like me. So from early on, it was actually quite a good thing to do, I think. Yeah. But actually having that in the diary, at any point, was it a bit, did it feel like it was looming and that it was a bit like a tricky thing to navigate? But every job does, don't you think, when you're a parent? Yeah.

19:11Everything. Because I've even got it now because I'm touring in March next year. So I've even got it now about my tour because I go, yeah, I'll do it. It looks great. And then I think, oh, I haven't thought about Betsy. But my mum's like, don't worry, she'll be fine. It is, it's as you get closer to it. And I get that daunting feeling. And it's family life, I think it's the job, I think it's all of that that you suddenly, until you actually get into that rehearsal room or the show actually opens, it feels a little bit like, I don't know what I signed up for. Yeah, and then we do always get through it.

19:45Nine times out of ten, you just love it. But you say yes to things, don't you? And then it starts to creep up and you're like, oh, panic. So finding out you're pregnant, how was it then telling Lee? Did you tell Lee on the phone that night or did you wait? No, I waited to tell him face to face. And he was so excited. But he also looked petrified. I just remember. I can imagine his little face. Yeah. Because he was like, oh. But we were trying. It wasn't like it was an agreement. Yeah, yeah. But it's also a different thing when you suddenly are pregnant. But I am. But he was really happy. He was really happy.

20:18And I've got to say, from day one, he was always amazing. he's still such a brilliant brilliant dad but yeah and he was lovely and he was really supportive and yeah it was nice actually what was your mum's reaction? oh she was so happy I mean my mum still says to me now I don't know why but I always imagined you'd have had loads of kids I think because my mum's always worked with children and I love being around kids I love it all my friends, kids but obviously then once we separated and I wasn't with Lee anymore, I kind of just, yeah, I just... Betsy always used to say to me she was quite happy with just us.

20:57Yeah, yeah. I guess because you are sort of, I'm going to say chaotic, but I don't mean that. No, I am. My life is like that. But I think maybe that is why you would suit in lots of ways that big family. But actually, having one child means that you can still have that external chaos. Yes, yeah. and again I think for that to happen you do have to be in the right relationship and obviously that we weren't together anymore and yeah it just never happened Did you envisage yourself with a lot of kids? I don't know more than one I would have thought but not loads but I said to my mum why do you think a lot?

21:38She said I don't know I've just always I always thought because of the way that you are and your personality you would just have had loads of them around you because I've got friends who've got like five kids. And she was like, I always thought that would be you. But I was like, no, I don't know. And I've always said to Betsy, and I've asked her so many times, she's 15 now, and we're very, very close because, you know, we've spent so much time together, just us living in the house. And I say to her, do you ever wish you had siblings? And she's always like, no, I love it, just us. So I don't feel bad, you know what I mean?

22:09Because she just loves it. Because my friends will go, oh, you know, it's quite sad though, isn't it? she's known each other. Loads of people say it. Yeah, it's really weird. A lot of people judge you if you've only got one. My other friends only got one and people say it. They're like, why did you never have any more? And I'm like, well, I feel really lucky that I've got one. I've got three and sometimes I just rock in a dark room. So it's probably just, you know, misery lies to be dead. That's so funny. How was your pregnancy? I was good, actually. I wasn't really, I never really felt sick or anything.

22:44a little bit at the beginning, but I just carried on eating cheese. Yeah, do you know what's really mad is Betsy loves cheese. Nah. Like, loves it. And I always wonder if it must be to do with that. I don't know. Loves cheese. But yeah, I just couldn't stop eating cheese and pasta. I remember that. But I had a really good pregnancy. The only thing that I did have, which I've always had back problems, I think because I danced so much when I was a kid, so I've had disc issues and all sorts. But I did have really bad sciatica, really bad sciatica towards the end of my pregnancy, which was really quite bad.

23:22And how did it feel having to adapt life to pregnancy in terms of because what you do is so physically? Yeah, I think I was all right with everything. Yeah, I still I mean, I see now some people like that still do dance, like full on dancing. I did a show in London with a lot of burlesque performers and aerialists and one of the girls was still doing aerial when she was like eight months pregnant. It was incredible to watch with this big bumper. No, I wasn't really doing anything that physical like that. I just, yeah, but I managed fine. I was all right. I just do remember being in a lot of pain with my back quite a lot and having to smile through it.

24:05As we do, because we're professional. You went for an elective C-section And I know this because you've talked about the judgment that you feel for having gone down that route. But there's a reason. Not that anyone needs to justify anything that they choose. I think it's such a personal thing that, you know, there's a baby growing inside of you. It's got to come out. And it's up to the mum to decide what that looks like for her or at least try and have some control over what that is. Yeah, there were a couple of reasons, really. One of them was because Lee was away on tour as well. so I tried to literally schedule it yeah I know which sounds crazy doesn't it but we really kind of wanted to plan in that respect also my sister had two very traumatic births with my niece and my nephew I mean it was horrific and natural births and she ended up having emergency c-sections for both and hearing that scared the life out of me so there was that also and also the issue with my back because it was actually they suggested to me so Betsy's due date was the 13th of May and I ended up having her on the 1st of May.

25:13Oh, wow. Because I was literally in so much partying with my back as well and he said to me, we need to get her out. Like, it's going to be, like, I was crippled over with the pain. So that was also another reason because of my disc issues that I had in my back. I mean, I've had operations since to sort it all out. But, yeah, there were the three things and it just led towards that. And I just thought, well, yeah, that felt right for me. Yeah. And I just didn't want to risk. I know it sounds really bad and a bit weak, but I did want to risk going through all of that and then seeing what happened to my sister having to have a cesarean anyway, you know, because my sister then said to me, if I'd have known, I would have done exactly that.

25:54She said it was so traumatic. It is. It's shocking that that judgment. And I wonder if now that we've sort of, I don't know, I've not been on Twitter for a long time, so I always feel like now that we're stepping away from Twitter, I don't know if we are, but I feel like I am. I think there's only maybe a certain demographic still on there. But now that that, I feel like Instagram is a different place in terms of judgment. And maybe we do all listen to each other a little bit more as mums. Yeah. And I think, like I said, because all that social media thing was still relatively new, I think now we've all got used to so many people with different opinions and approaches that everything's more acceptable, you know.

26:35so I just think at that particular time I think also you do put yourself in the firing line don't you if you say anything but then you also have to learn to just be honest and say it because there are other people who can relate to it and they go I don't feel as guilty for doing that you know so I mean you know how many times do you hear your friend saying I go to work for a break because when you're a parent and it's hard work well you couldn't say anything like that then you know but it's true then why not? It's nice isn't it to have a break some time. In terms of your birth and having a C-section that was what was right for you so it feels bonkers that anyone would have an opinion on it to have an opinion and then to get in touch with you about it.

27:21And I like I said I only spoke openly about it because I had no idea that people would be so anti it. Do you know what I mean? And it's like because I just was thinking of my sister and what she'd been through. And like I said, there was other factors as well with Lee. But I've never regretted that. I've never regretted the way I gave birth. Also, you wouldn't have gone into it. They're still here, aren't they? They still come out in the end. But you wouldn't have gone into it naively either because you would have seen your sister's recovery after those C-sections. My sister had a C-section. And I remember her being with us and just being completely, my eyes open to what it is that a woman goes through after having a C-section.

28:00The fact that that is major abdominal surgery. It's not a walk in the park. And actually, rather than making people feel guilty for having gone down, you know, or having to have had a C-section, there's actually so much care that we can be giving instead. Exactly. The other thing, though, is I do think if you're if it's an emergency C-section is different because the recovery from that, I think, is is longer and harder because my sister found it harder. because I knew what I was going in. You know, and I think I recovered quite quickly, relatively quickly, and I was fine because I think a lot of it is the...

28:35The shock of it. Yeah, the shock of it. Like, my sister was really like, oh, this is happening now. It was like the decision was taken out of her hands. So I think that's a lot to do with it. Whereas I'd pre-planned, I was able to go, right, this is the downtime I need. This is what I can and can't do. You know, and I'd had everything in place. Like, my mum was like, well, I'll help you because you couldn't lift a pram, you know, or car seats. And so I had everything sort of ready to go. So that did help a lot. How did it feel meeting Betsy? Oh, it was amazing. I just remember, and it's funny, isn't it?

29:04Because I just remember we all do and you just go, I don't know what to do. And then you find that it just happens naturally. Yeah. You just, it's in you, isn't it? You can't help it. I just remember for the first few weeks, I took Betsy back to the flat and Lee was there, but Lee was then going off again on tour. He was only home for like a few nights and then he had to go off on the Wicked tour and musical tour. And I remember putting Betsy in her basket and I'm in front of the sofa just facing me and my mum and we would just sit there for ages just staring at her. You do it for ages, don't you?

29:40And you're just like... And I'm like, my mum goes, has she done anything? And I go, no. But you just, they don't do anything, do they? And I remember going to all my friends, what's everybody going on about? It's so easy. and they were like, oh, you wait, this is the easy part. You wait till she gets to sort of, you know, being a toddler and teething, all of those stages, it all changes. Yeah, yeah.

30:09What was that like being, you know, having Betsy and then having Lee come and go? Were you just so used to it? Because obviously it's such a new thing to be experiencing as well. so to have those times where you're doing it together and then you know him being away living a life that you would have been living you know but now you're home with a baby in a very different life what was that like I think Lee found it harder than me because I was at home and he really struggled with it because I remember him saying to me um in the really early days he was like I really I'm struggling because he didn't know what to do and then it was like obviously I was with Betsy all the time.

30:46So he was like watching me and then trying to do things. I think he struggled with it. And then he sort of found his way with it when he had a bit more time. But it was much harder for him. It was quite sad to see, actually, because I was like, oh, I could see he was panicking all the time because he was thinking, I haven't got the bond. I haven't got the bond. But I think a lot of dads go through that. Especially that first sort of six months where so much is needed from the mum. Yes. Yeah, I think so. But then he did, you know, I mean, like I said, once they start as well to react to you, you know, then he just was like, he was so, he still is obsessed with her, he loves her to bits.

31:28Yeah. Yeah. But it was, yeah, it was hard. It was hard for that reason. And I do remember being on my own a lot as well and thinking, because then I was getting offered for jobs and things, and I know I did Legally Blonde, but there were other things, and I was like, oh, this is different because suddenly I'd be going, oh, no, I can't do that. Like I was offered jobs in America because I'd done a bit of work there and I was like, oh, no, I can't. And that sudden shift actually of maybe I'd, you know, suddenly from going to saying yes to all the opportunities to suddenly having this thing that makes you go, oh.

32:00Yeah, I can't. And I didn't want to. Yeah. I really didn't want to. And there were like things coming in that were great, like really good jobs. And I'd be like, I don't want to do it. Yeah. I'm actually quite happy just getting my little takeaway coffee and walking around with the pram and, you know, I was loving it. I loved it. But a weird place to be when you've been slogging for so long. Yeah, and a weird place to be when all I've ever known is performing, you know. And, yeah, I felt nicely invisible for a period of time, which was actually really nice. Yeah. I enjoyed it. I'd said yes to Legally Blonde because I was just desperate to do the show.

32:34But I think then at the end of Legally Blonde, I realised that it was quite a lot for me to take off because it was quite exhausting. And I was doing night feeds and everything. so it was a lot. I only did it, I think I did it for about five months. It wasn't too long. But when you're in it, when you start and go, gosh, this is hard and I've still got five months left. That's a lot. But I loved it though. And obviously Paulette, the role that I was playing in Legally Blonde, isn't a huge role so it was manageable. Nice to have the pressure off you. Yes. So Sheridan was the lead and she was just incredible and I'd come on in like two or three acts and I'd be off and it was a nice role.

33:10Come on, make them laugh. Yeah, exactly. but after that I did allow myself to have a bit of time off because I realised that I needed to and I just loved it I just loved being I loved all the early days it was so nice and I was very aware of the fact that you don't get that time back and it's one of the things I've always struggled with that you know as a mum it's hard with work just struggle with the guilt of being away and working and it's always been, I've always found that quite hard. Has there ever been a time where you feel like you've maybe found peace within that guilt, like it's going to be there or is it just...

33:50Only now. Really. Because every time when I used to take a job, I always would be like, oh, well, I'm not away for long, da-da-da-da. But then some of the things as well that I realised that I really did give myself a hard time for, like I did strictly when Betsy was two, and I remember at the time thinking, oh, it's a lot to do when you've got a two-year-old. But now when I talk to Betsy about it, and I remember she said to me, she can't even remember me doing Strictly, which was two. But that time doing that show, I cannot tell you, I put myself through hell, like thinking, oh, I should be at home and I should be doing this and doing that.

34:26Well, and I imagine really putting the pressure on so that any moment you can be like all doing so much. I was rushing home constantly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rushing home and exhausted because I was rushing home after dancing and rehearsing all day. Then my mum would leave and I'd take over and there was a lot to do, you know. So, yeah, that was a lot. But she can't remember any of it. I was like, all that, I put myself through all of that and she was like, did you do, you did strictly then? She can't even remember, didn't even know I did it. Did the guilt surprise you the first time it started rearing its head?

34:55Yeah, I think it, yeah, it was, people said it to me, the mum guilt. And I know it's not just mums because Dad, Lise has it as well. Any parent or, you know, guardian, they have it. But, yeah, it did surprise me a little bit and surprised me that it's never left me. I mean, when I say now I'm more at peace with it, trust me, I'm still very much like, you know, like next week, for instance, I've got jobs every evening. But one of them I've dropped because I was like, no, I need to do something really nice for my daughter. Even she probably won't even want to spend the evening with me. You know, I could just be at home and she's watching TV in another room because she's 15 and she's just, you know, she wants her independence and her space for me.

35:38she's got her mates to talk to and stuff, but I still, I'm present and I'm there. Do you know what I mean? Yes, absolutely. But also, comparatively, at two years old, she needs less from you, maybe, than at 15. That is that thing that Cat and Moran came in once and she talked about how teenagers, they need you to be there so that when they are ready to speak to you about something, you're just there. Because that moment of them actually kind of going, right, I need this time, I need this. It might be fleeting. Yes, exactly. And they might only ever try once. Yeah. And this is the time to be around.

36:10And this is what... And it's lovely as well because my daughter has a great relationship with my mum. And both sets of grandparents. So she's very open. She talks to me. So that's the other thing I never feel too guilty about now because my mum's 80 now. And I had it with my nan, Nanny Mary. And it's a special relationship and a special time. So it's not like there's always family around. But yeah, sometimes I'll say to Betsy, oh, should we do something next Wednesday? because, you know, I'm at home and she's like, oh, I'm going to see my friend or, you know. So it's kind of the tables have turned a little bit.

36:43That's such a shift, isn't it? You kind of knowing their diary, you being in charge of it, suddenly you're not actually even featuring it. I know. Or knowing what they're doing. I know. Or it's like my friend's coming over and she'll be like, oh, what can we have to eat? What will you make us? And I'm just like coming up with a tray of food. And then she's like, thanks, door closes. is I'm like back downstairs on the sofa with the dog so oh I feel a bit redundant now is that is that challenging to kind of have that to go through that change of dynamics yeah a little bit I mean I'm I'm fine with it but I know some women do really struggle with it but yeah I've um it is yeah I do feel like sometimes because I've said to friends you you do I try and do too many things for her and she's like mum I can do that you know because she's a teenager and I'm like okay but you know she's like you're really doing far too much but yeah so Have you become embarrassing yet?

37:40I think I've always been embarrassing It's really weird though because I think she thinks I'm embarrassing but secretly also thinks I'm cool because I think her friends, because I do a couple of things that her friends think are cool like I DJ and I do like clubs in Ibiza and do festivals and I've found out through, well Betsy sort of told me and she said, oh, my mate's thinking you're really cool. And she's actually asked me for her 16th birthday if I could DJ and I thought... That's massive! That's quite cool, isn't it? That's really cool. I would not, and my 16th said, mum, or dad, how do you fancy?

38:13Yeah. And then I suddenly was really panicking about and I thought, oh, I'm going to have all these 16-year-olds in my house and I'm responsible for all of them, so I've got the feeling. Yeah, what they're actually doing is putting your attention somewhere else. Exactly. So I'll be on the decks concentrating and then I won't have a clue what's going on in the garden. So, yeah, I need to really think about that one. But, yeah, I've got a really good relationship with Betsy. It's lovely. We're very, very close. It's lovely. But lovely to think about how that has developed over the years as well.

38:45Yes. And just changed so much. And do you know what? Sometimes it was what the other side of it is. I was always the one giving Betsy advice and, you know, trying to navigate through awkward situations. but she's done it for me as well. Like she'll say to me about certain things and situations or, oh, I don't think you should worry about that, Mummy. And I'm like, oh, that's not what I was expecting you to say. You know, so it's interesting. You suddenly see she's got this little adult head on her and she's advising me on what to do and how to feel and think. Like I can see it's funny as well because I can really see Lee in her personality and also little snippets of me.

39:21Like it's funny when you see your kids and you go, oh. I like some of the funny little things that she'll do that I find might irritate me or annoy me when they try and wind you up and stuff. And then I go, oh, no, but that's me. That's what I do. Do you know when you're pushing boundaries and things like that? It's funny. My mum goes, well, you know, apple doesn't fall far from the tree. That's exactly what you were like. But everyone, when I talk about teenagers, most people go to me, oh, is it a nightmare? I haven't really found it. Really? Yeah. we've had little odd moments but it's been alright actually she's been pretty good yeah it is I mean you've kind of gone through that whole thing of you know Betsy having a phone Betsy you know I don't know what she's doing social media wise but it's kind of that you've lived that and I feel like I've been sort of four years behind going oh but by the time Buzz is there it will all be figured out I've been quite naive to the fact that actually at some point I do have to navigate that I have to navigate no you can't have this no you can't have that you know and uh and that's really that's it's really tricky especially I think for for the for the generation maybe or people that are slightly older than Buzz it's that thing of us not really knowing what that was that we were giving children whereas now it feels like it's become this really really scary thing and yeah I feel like we're all just trying to figure it out yeah and it isn't really controlled properly is it you know and And it's what they have access to is the worry.

40:54But, yeah, it does need to be looked into. And it does bother me. It does worry me. What is your way of coping with it and working with Betsy? Is it communication? Yeah, communication. We talk a lot about it because there was a period of time, not now because she's a bit older, but I'd say around 12, 13, where she believed everything she saw on there. And I think now she's starting to realise that, oh if someone's trying to sell you something saying it's the best thing ever it's not necessarily it's just the way that they're advertising it to get you to buy it so she's sort of making sense of it all we had this with Mr Beast chocolate oh right because they'd watched some Mr Beast video and they were like it's the best chocolate ever and I was like how do you know it's the best chocolate he says it's the best and I was like he owns the company no no no but also his friends these other YouTubers are saying it's the best I was like they're his friends or they've been paid you know it's not just a straight fall Like you can't, you can't believe things.

41:50Oh, you have to, you have to know when something is an ad. Like we all do it, you know, on our socials. We know, we are very clear when it is an ad. But I think there are other avenues that maybe surrounds kids that they don't know when they're being sold something. Yeah. It's not even just the being sold. It's about, you know, what is acceptable. It's like with their body image, everything, you know. Oh, if you look like this, then you're, you know, I just, that's the worry. And I think when you've got girls as well for that. Well, boys as well, I think. I think it's responsible for a lot of mental health issues in youth and it's a worry and it's sad.

42:25Yeah. And I do want them to change it if it can be changed. Absolutely. Yeah, because I never had that. We never had any of this. No. So, like, when people say to me, was it tough? I mean, the only thing which was quite scary is that we had to worry about is whether or not you're going to be in the Sunday newspapers if you're in the public eye. You know, what have I done? You'd get a phone call on a Friday. Oh, no. And it was like, oh, no, what have I done? You know, and it was some ex-boyfriend. Just a phone call, just their names coming up. I'm like, oh, no. Selling a story or something. So that was obviously horrible.

42:56But it wasn't like in your face every day. Yeah. And that's what I don't like. I just think it's too much. But actually, Betsy's been really good with it. She doesn't really post pictures. And she's kind of stepped away from it a little bit more now because I think she just can't be bothered with it. She's like, it's too much admin. Yeah. And it is. Yeah, absolutely. And the amount of times I'm sitting there and I have to, you know, do a reel or something for a job that I've been doing. And actually, even I've got two French bulldogs. My youngest one, Remy, she gets her paw and she's like, have I got the phone?

43:32To get the phone out of my hand. It's like, get off the phone. I thought, if he's not a kid doing it, I've got a French bulldog doing it, like judging me. Get off the phone. So literally, honestly, it's the funniest thing. I didn't do it to my mum or dad or anyone, it was just me. If I sit down and I've got my phone, the paw goes like this, like, put it down. That's so funny. I know. Obviously, when you became a mum, you would have thought that it would, or you would have had in your head what that would look like. I don't suppose any part of you thought that you would be doing it as a single mum, you know, and co-parenting in the way that you have.

44:10And I think it's really clear now that you and Lee have such a great partnership. So I want to caveat that that's obviously, and that's so important. But it must have been difficult, kind of not knowing what that was going to look like for a while. Yeah. Oh, definitely. Scary. And I didn't know, yeah. And I didn't even realise how much at that time you suddenly go, well, I kind of, I had a little taste of being on my own with Betsy because obviously Lee was on tour when she was young. But then the actual reality of going, oh, but he's not coming back, do you know what I mean, to help and stuff.

44:51So, yeah, that was a lot. But, again, you just get on with it and it becomes normal, you know. And my friends would go to me, oh, how do you cope with doing it all? And I was like, I'll just do it because it's the only thing I know, you know. It's the only way I know. because even now I have it, just even being in the house and doing things like, I'm doing everything. I'm doing what would be maybe considered a job that a man would be in the house would do, and I'm doing all of it, changing light bulbs, putting the bins out, changing fuses. I mean, doing everything. I do all of it on my own, and you just get on with it.

45:32Was that something you had to come to terms with, though, kind of that idea of having to do all of it? Yeah. I think I spoke to, I remember speaking to Mylene about it, Mylene Cluss, because she went through something similar and she was on her own and we talked about it and she was like, it's a lot, a lot to, especially when you're working as well and as much as we are career women and as much as what we're doing, it's a lot to take on. But we just get on with it, don't we? We're quite tough. Absolutely. Really tough. Tough as old boots she is. Well, what about dating? Because obviously dating when you've got a child is a different ballgame, especially if you're parenting the bulk of the time that Betsy's with you because Lee's on tour or whatever.

46:22How have you found that? What do you mean after my relationship? Yeah, no, but just having a baby and dating. And dating, okay. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? because I think the thing is with most of the people, once I'd split up with me and I did start dipping my toe in the water of going out on a couple of dates, I think most people that I was dating around that time had kids themselves. Yeah, yeah. So it makes it easier. But it's interesting because it takes that thing of like you'd go, so what night are your kids with their mum on? Do you know what I mean? And it was like... Magistical nightmare.

46:57So we could do Wednesday and it's like, oh, but my night's Thursday. Oh, okay, how are we going to make this work? So you're just really planning it all around that. But yeah, I mean, I've dated a couple of guys since I split up with you years ago, but they've both had kids and it's all worked out really well. But then there's that whole thing of like integrating families and that's also another thing that you have to consider. Because it must look very different dating, you know, especially when you've got a little kid, not now, but when you've got a little kid compared to when you don't have kids and you're, you know, in your 20s or 30s.

47:32Yeah, totally. and kids are also just really honest as well. That's the other thing, you know, if they don't like someone that you're dating, they make it quite obvious, you know? So it's interesting as well, because you think, oh, it's all going really well, and then you're like, oh, do you want to meet my daughter? And then my daughter's like, I don't like him. And I'm like, oh, I don't like him, Mummy. I never liked him. I don't like him. And it's like, oh, okay, well, then that's, you know, that's not going to go anywhere, is it? But also what you're looking for in a partner must really change.

48:04Yeah. And it's a lot, isn't it, for... I've seen it with my brother as well, you know. He's found it just as hard because he's separated as well. And it's like he said to me it's quite difficult when he's meeting other women and they've got kids and, you know, it's just the whole dynamic changes. But, yeah. But it's also lovely as well because when it is working and it is nice, It's a lovely feeling, you know, that you have that. I mean, Lee's made that work. Lee's engaged to Izzy and they've got a son and Betsy goes in. She loves it. They're a family. She loves it. And I think, you know, I think nowadays it's very different to what it would have been decades ago.

48:45I think there are so many families that every family looks different. Yeah. And I think that those roles of other adults coming in, it can be a real gift. I say that on this podcast so much, that role of, you know, and what that looks like is kind of navigated by you guys as well. But seeing it as, you know, our family might not look like we thought it would, but how special is this? Yeah. And also, it's interesting because you learn so much. You learn about the way other people parent, like when you're, because you suddenly see it from another perspective. Do you know what I mean? And that's also interesting.

49:24so in some ways it's changed the way I've parented because of my experiences with the couple of relationships that I have had over the past few years and watching the way they parent and things that they do and I go, oh, I can still get the same result if I do this or do that, you know, it's interesting you do learn so much Are you the mum you thought you would be? I'm more chilled, even Betsy says it's so funny and I can say this openly because she wouldn't mind But I'll go, who's the strictest out of me and your dad? And people would assume it's me. And she was like, oh, daddy's so much stricter than you are.

50:00And I'm like, really? And he is. He's, you know, he's very protective, but very, yeah. And it's funny, isn't it? And I'm more like, oh, don't worry about it. You know, a little bit like that. Yeah. So I'm more relaxed. Yeah. So I thought I wouldn't be. I would have thought, I don't know. But yeah, quite chilled, really, as a mum. Yeah. I can imagine you being really playful as well. Yeah, we have, yeah, but I think Betsy finds it annoying. Okay. Forget you have a teenager. Yeah, so I am, but what she said to me the other day when I went to wake her up in the morning, because when I wake up in the morning, I am quite a happy person in the morning.

50:37I mean, I spent years doing breakfast TV and stuff. Yeah, you've got to be perky. I do wake up just like that anyway. Like, I'm ready to go. You know, some people, Betsy needs time to wake up. Like her dad, he's a bit like that. But I just went into her and I said, well, come on, got to get up, got to school. and she just went, oh, you're so annoying. I was like, why? And she went, you're just too happy in the morning. And I was like, oh, is that a crime? And she was like, it's just really annoying. She went, I need to be left alone for a little bit. And then she'll snap out of it, but it just needs to take her time.

51:05But I was like, how can I be too happy? Like, why is that annoying? And I've got nobody else here to talk to. So I'm like, oh, come on, get up. So I can chat. So I go downstairs, talk to the dogs instead. They appreciate my happiness. Yeah, I've got a dog now. We've got a little Dennis who's a golden retriever. Not that little, actually. And I thought we were getting a golden retriever because it would just be nice to have someone in the house that listened to me. He doesn't always listen to me either. Well, yeah, that's true. But I talk to my dogs constantly. Do you? When Betsy's at school and that, I'm just always talking.

51:37Yeah. And I say things like, and it's bizarre. I'll go out and I go, I'm not going to be long. Like as if they know how long long is or not long. They've got their little watches on. Yeah, and I think, why am I explaining myself? And I even do this because I'll put the TV on for them because they've got a bit of background noise. And sometimes something will be on and I think, oh, they won't like that. And I change it to something else because I think, oh, I'll put that on instead because that's more them. And I'm like, they're dogs. What sort of thing are they into? Well, sometimes I just think the news, I think it's a bad energy.

52:07So I'm like, no, it's a bit much for them really, you know. So I'll change it and then I'll skip over to like loose women. See, I can remember Dennis coming back and just having friends on, constantly because I thought that would be a nice little noise for him. Cheerful things. Cheerful things, yeah. It's a good one. If you could write a letter on being a mum, who would it be to and what would you say? Well, I would definitely write it to my mum to say, and I'm sure probably a lot of people say this, but just thank you, really, because I don't think until I've got to this age and I'm approaching 52...

52:41You're not. Yeah. Wow. I know, 52. to I don't think I'd ever really fully appreciated just everything that my mum and my dad did for us as a family you know you really do understand it and made a lot of sacrifices and they're just they're incredible to watch just incredible to watch how they've just raised us my brother and sister and I and but the grandchildren and everything that they do and yeah they're just they're amazing I love that so yeah massive thank you and I wouldn't have the career that I've got and the things I've been able to do if it wasn't for the fact they gave me the freedom and the support to do it because it really was a big thing at that time it's a group effort it's a group effort to do things like that so yeah how are you feeling about tour because you've got a big old tour coming up next year you've got an album out you've got a tour I mean it feels like it's amazing I love it yeah Can I also add into my letter to my mum to say thank you for looking after Betsy the dogs when I go on tour?

53:46Because it'll be great to just, you know, put that in. Put that in before. Yeah, because again, I wouldn't be able to do it without my mum. And that I think is so important because I think people can see people doing lots of different things and going, well, how do they do that? How do they make it work? And usually the answer is that support network. Yeah. It's who you have around you. It's never that clean cut of kind of like I do everything. No one can do everything. They simply can't. It's about the juggle to make that work. Yeah, and I'm fortunate enough that I've got a lovely family, supportive family who live nearby who can, because I know people don't have that.

54:20Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some people, and that must be so hard. But, yeah, so this tour, one of the other reasons I really wanted to get back on stage is because Betsy's never seen me on stage. What? She's never seen me do a show. How? Because I stopped doing them. When she was little, that's when I did Legally Blonde. And what else did I do? I'm trying to think what other ones I did. But around that time, I kind of stopped taking shows because I wanted to be really present as a mum for Betsy. And as you know, a lot of those shows, because I was a mum on my own with a single mum, you know, even though I've...

54:56Because Lee was off doing theatre stuff as well. I couldn't do eight shows a week. I needed to be home. To be away from home for six nights. Yeah. To not do six bedtimes in a week. it's a lot and I did have help like childcare and I had a lovely girl that used to help me from Betsy's local nursery it was amazing Laura and she used to do the odd thing for me but I just didn't want to also have a nanny there doing it all the time I wanted to be the school drops and the school pick ups and the bath times so I stopped doing them I said no for a very long time and then I was like I do want to get back on stage and the whole reason I wrote an autobiography in 2023 put it out because it felt like I'd got to the right time in my life where I had a body of work that I was proud of and could talk about and obviously life experience and then after putting the book out and it's selling really well I thought there's so many songs that relate to moments in my book like the song that my nan loved that she used to sing to my granddad which is the Diana Ross song when you tell me that you love me so I thought I might do an album because I've also never recorded my own voice in an album I've only ever had character versions.

56:09Yeah, tell me on a Sunday. I listen to it on repeat, by the way. But that's me playing a character. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, when I did Rent, we did a cast album, that was me playing a character, but not just my voice. And I thought, I mean, part of me was thinking, I know this is a bit morbid, I was thinking, if anything happens to me, I wanted something for Betsy to have as well. So I thought I'd do an album, so I've got something that's my voice, the songs I love that relate to moments in my life. And then I thought, why don't I actually put this on stage and do a nice evening with?

56:36because I've got loads of anecdotes and great stories about all the people I've worked with and living in New York and doing Chicago and, you know, even Celebrity Gogglebox. People are fascinated by that. I've been doing it for seven years. So I thought, why don't I do a show? And so that's the thinking behind it. And also, finally, my daughter will actually get to see me do something on stage. She's never seen me do anything. That is crazy. I know. I know. And she's 15. So that just tells you, doesn't it, that's how many years I said no. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, when is she 16? May.

57:08So she'll be 16 when you... Oh, no, after, just after. No, just after, just after. So the tour is in March. Yes, so tour in the UK in March and it's going to be a lovely evening. I've got a few surprise little guests going to pop up along the way, but I won't say which dates and where, which will be nice. Do you feel nervous about the idea of Betsy watching? No, I'm really excited. I want her to see... Because she just doesn't... She's seen little video clips of things online and stuff. of things that I've done. But no, I really wanted to see it because I will sing some songs from Tell Me On A Sunday and Chicago and those things.

57:42And it'd just be nice, actually, to share that moment with her. Because I also go and watch her do her school shows and she's got a lovely voice. So they give her the solos now. But Lee was her age when he found his voice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, I mean, he's got an incredible voice. And she's got a naturally really good voice, like untrained. And she's now doing singing lessons at school, but that's like with the group, with the school choir, but a naturally really good voice. It's not like a stagey voice, you know, got lovely tone. And yeah, so I'm excited for her. But just more to see that she doesn't get nervous.

58:17Doesn't she? No. I mean, it's really like anything else. She can be a little bit sort of self-aware. You put her on a stage and she'll just sing. And she's like, yeah. She went, all the other kids were shaking. And I'm like, don't you get a little bit nervous? Like, I do and your dad does. She's like, no, not with singing. She went, because I know I can do it. But you are someone who has an air of confidence. Yeah. That, you know, you just, you seem so just, just in your body and just able to give. Do you know what I mean? So it's interesting that you have that, but still feel the nerves, which so many of us feel.

58:51Whereas she is flipped in that. Yeah. And I don't know where that confidence comes from. She doesn't have that. Like, I think with singing, I always had a little bit of imposter syndrome because obviously around the time I became known through TV, all my friends were in like bands. Like I was friends with the All Saints girls, you know, Emma Bunter, the Spice Girls, Louise. Yeah. You know, so they were all singers. So I always had that little bit of, because I knew my voice wasn't like a pop voice. It was very much a musical theatre, classical sort of trained voice. So I would always like sing a little bit and then go a little bit quiet because they'd all be riffing and doing all this pop stuff.

59:30So I've always had a bit of imposter syndrome. I don't feel like that now because I feel like I'm an age where I can sing all those lovely songs and enjoy them. But definitely then I thought it was a bit uncool when it came to singing. See, I've been talking about this a lot recently because I've started having singing lessons, even though I went to Sylvia's, but not sung for a long time. And I think it was coming out of Sylvia's, me going and doing an acting degree, so straight acting, Tom being him at Fly, Tom's sister suddenly being massive in the West End. Suddenly you had two people close proximity who were singing was their thing.

59:59So I suddenly backed away from it. And then my confidence in it, especially after having kids and stuff, it just sort of dipped. So I thought, no, actually, I really enjoy singing. So I've started again and I absolutely love it. It's great, isn't it? Yes. I love it so much. Yeah, it is great. And it's a lovely gift if you can sing and you can sing well. That's what I say to Betsy. You've got a gift. So you should just really, like, you know, it needs to be nurtured and cared for and she gets it. So, yeah, it's lovely to see. I'm excited about her seeing you on tour, seeing you on stage for the first time.

1:00:30I know, but I wonder if she will cringe. No. I hope not. I reckon she's going to cry with pride. Oh, I don't know about tears, but we'll see. Let me know. I will let you know. We end the podcast with you completing three sentences. The first one. Oh, okay. I'm not very good at these things. No, it's okay. Just don't overthink about it. Just don't overthink. Don't overthink. Panic, panic. Okay, go on then. Being a mum means? The world to me is everything. It's been the making of me. Completely. And yeah, it's been the greatest gift. Since having a child, I? I've become less selfish and it's taught me patience.

1:01:06I'm happy when? When I'm at home with my daughter on the sofa with the dogs watching a really cheesy film and eating cheese. So that's remained. The cheese is remained. The cheese. Cheesy films and a cheese ball. I'm happy. I love this. Also, I've never done it as like a quick fire like that. But that really worked because sometimes people panic and they're like, oh, I don't know, I don't know. Well, I thought I was going to panic, but actually no. So quick fire, just firing out on you is better. Denise, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Good luck with tour. Thank you. And if you're around, come and see it.

1:01:41I will do. When are you closest to London? Well, there are a few dates. You need to have a little look and I'll check. I mean, you're away for a lot of dates. Yeah, it's like three and a half weeks, I think, I'm up and down the country. So there will be ones around. every single night within that three and a half weeks. Yes, yes. But it's fine. It's fine. It's going to be amazing. We're rafters. I will take my cheese with me. See you afterwards for a cheese and wine. I'll hold you to that. Oh, no.