Dr Emily MacDonagh on why she and Peter Andre won’t have anymore children

0:01Coming up on Happy Mum, Happy Baby So I was crawling in. And I just felt like saying to him, just for once, say no to a photo. He's always so lovely. You know, people are so kind to him as well. So he always obviously does pictures of people on this one occasion. But your wife is crawling on the floor in labor. Oh, God. And that was the point where I was like, get me inside. I'm about to die. I hadn't even taken paracetamol. I'd taken nothing. He sort of would stop breathing when we were at home. And I'd be feeding him. And thinking you thought was going a bit of a funny colour. And it's so funny when it's your own child, even as a doctor.

0:39It's really hard to, like, make decisions about, well, that doesn't seem quite right. And I had to ask somebody else. Really? I can't really explain it, but you just become a mum. Yeah. Not a doctor. Yeah, I haven't really spoken, really, about her birth and what happened afterwards. Because it was so hard and awful. all um but yeah like it was it was tough

1:12hello and welcome to a brand new episode of happy mum happy baby the podcast today's guest is an nhs doctor she's a best-selling author she's married to peter andre she has three children and she's got a new book out called The Incredible Things Your Body Can Do. It's Dr. Emily McDonough. Hello. I've said to you before, I only know you as Dr. Emily on Instagram. Emily. Just Emily's fine. But I just didn't twig in my head that you're not Emily Andre. No. I just think, unless we've been somewhere, because we've done some things together, and I wonder if someone's accidentally put Emily Andre on, like, invites and stuff.

1:51Sometimes, yeah, I guess sometimes people do refer to me as Andre. they don't realise that our surname actually has an A on the end. But then that ends up really confusing people. So I go with Andre. Andre's fine. My work name is McDonagh, which is also a complete mouthful that no one can ever spell. But you pronounced it absolutely correctly. Because I used to be best mates with a person called Charlotte McDonagh. Did you actually? It's a really unusual name. So my worry was calling you Charlotte rather than Emily. Charlotte's a nice name. I'll take that. No, you pronounced it perfectly. I've had all sorts of mispronunciations of my name.

2:22Tell me about it. No one can say Giovanna Really? No I'm always like put the van in it Giovanna You are about to publish a brand new book You've already published loads over the years But this is a different area for you It's for three and up It's a picture book And it is absolutely beautiful It's here The incredible things your body can do Tell me about it Why did you want to create it? And it must be so weird after I know it's a picture book And the others are more words Yeah, but picture books actually take a lot of time. Yeah, I mean, I was so happy to write it because obviously we've, well, we've had a baby.

3:00She's now a year old. So I'm thinking, actually, this is great. I've got a book now that in a little bit of time she'll be able to read it as well. So it kind of was just a nice follow on from my last three. The last three were more aimed at kind of older kids, say sort of eight to 11 sort of an age. And so it's just lovely to do something for younger kids. And this is really focused much more around the physical body. So I've kind of done a bit on all the different systems in the body and how they work. Because I think, you know, there's lots of things that kids find funny or silly to talk about.

3:28Like poo and wee and things like that. So there's a little bit about that in there and like how the body works. Because it is quite fascinating. It's quite amazing. It's really fascinating. And, you know, I love the fact that you've created something that you can enjoy with Arabella as well. Yeah. Because I don't have anything that I've written that I can actually share with my kids. They don't want it. They will do though. One day. They are all about the dinosaur that pooped though. That's my house. But I love the fact that you've brought something into the house as a mum that's gone, no, this is mum's work.

3:56Do you know what? It's so funny. They actually find it hilarious that I've written books. Really? Yeah. Millie went on a school trip recently and she was a little bit nervous. She was going away for about four or five days. And she took one of my books with her because it had some little bits in it. It was my book for kind of mental health. So it had little bits in it about how you cope with feeling a bit worried or feeling a bit sad. And I was just so happy that she took it with her. we went through some of the bits before you know had like some breathing exercises in it and you know ways to think of things that make you feel calm going to your safe place all of those things and she took it with her in her suitcase i said when she got home i said did you read it did you need to read it she said that she did she read it on one of the days oh i was so happy i was so happy and my puberty book i've read that with her as well which is so helpful really um it was so funny i was reading it going this is actually quite good this is quite handy it's an amazing thing then Because when you're writing, those words come out, but it's when you revisit it and you go, oh, I did that.

4:54Yeah, that bit was good. And it was actually really lovely because I wrote it with my mum, who's a paediatrician. So I was just able to ring mum and go, that bit was really good we did there, mum. That bit was fab. And she's laughing at me. Obviously, she's so knowledgeable. It's been so amazing to work with her on it. And now with the picture book, it's that thing of getting even younger children in tune with their bodies and understanding it. I love the fact that you're now reaching out to all ages. Yeah, and it's nice. And I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but I'm writing another book at the moment, which is kind of the other end of the spectrum, so slightly older kids, maybe teenage years a bit more.

5:31So yeah, that will come out at some stage. So I'm kind of trying to cover... It's amazing, because I think it's that thing. As kids, we all go through stages where we don't quite know what is going on and how to manage that. But as a parent, you also don't know what is the right thing to say. And I would imagine that as a doctor, you can be very listened to. As a parent, not always. Do you know what I mean? So having a book where everything is written down, it's a much easier way of kind of going, read this. And you reading it as well to understand what that dialogue should consist of. Yeah. And it's really interesting you say that because about the puberty thing again, when I was talking to Millie about it and saying, you know, we need to have some of these conversations, she was a bit like, oh, it's embarrassing and I don't want to.

6:15Even though I say to her, it's not embarrassing to me. You know, I have to see all sorts of things at work and nothing's embarrassing. But when we actually sat down and looked at the book together, it just gave us that opportunity to start the conversation in a kind of a non-embarrassing way. She just was fine about it. So I don't know whether it's something, even though she knew I'd written it, whether it was just something about seeing it written down or having that bit of extra time to process it. The drawings and things are always helpful. But it somehow was just really helpful. Yeah. And I've had such lovely feedback.

6:46I think, I would say this, apart from the kids, the books are the thing I'm most proud of. I think because I love books as well. I'm a real book worker. So I just love the fact that I've been able to write a book. And it's a gorgeous thing to be able to sit down and read those books with your children. I just feel so lucky to have been able... It was like a dream of mine that I've been able to do. It's amazing. It's absolutely amazing. Tell me about your childhood. You were one of five. Correct. You are the eldest of five. Yeah, I've got four little brothers who aren't very little anymore. You're the only girl.

7:17I'm the only girl. I'm fully outnumbered. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. So there's me and four boys. How much younger are they? What's the age of us? So the first four of us are within seven years. Who has her? And then my little brother is 16 years younger than me. Right. So he's at medical school now in Bristol, which is really nice because I went to medical school in Bristol. So it's kind of like come full circle. So, yeah. And both of your parents are in that field of doctors and paediatricians. Yep. So my mum's a paediatrician, dad's a urologist. So, yeah. And one of my other brothers is a doctor. One's now training to be a doctor.

7:52And the other two decided we're not going anywhere near that. It's way too stressful. What are they doing? So one of my brothers works in finance and the other works in sales. So they both live in London, which is quite nice. That's pretty amazing, though, for two doctors to essentially breed three doctors. Yeah, I know. I said they've got a three out of five hit rate on them. Yeah. That's pretty amazing. What was home life like? Like, lovely, really. Chaotic? Yeah, quite busy. Really? Because my parents always worked full time. My mum's, like, you know, such a hard worker. And my dad, you know, he'd be operating and then he'd come home.

8:29and like I remember because now you can't do this but this was like when I was really young he's about to bring home things like kidney stones in little jars obviously now you're not allowed to then it was fine um and be like oh my god look kids look at this I remember being like wow that's so cool that you could do that but you know I remember them doing night shifts and yeah it was busy and there was there was one stage where all five of us were at a different school because I was at college one of my brothers was at one school the other was at another school the other was at primary and then my little brother was at nursery.

9:02The logistics of seven people being really, really busy and in different places. Yeah, it was crazy. But it was like very country lifestyle. We were outside a lot. My parents had a whistle. So we'd be like out like a tree somewhere or something and you'd hear the whistle. And that means like come in for dinner. I need to get myself a whistle. It's literally me opening the back door and going, boys, boys. You need a whistle, like just a football whistle, you know, like a loud one yeah and then we'd come in from wherever we were come and eat but yeah it was I had a yeah lovely time really did your mum and dad have help so they worked full time yeah we did yes they did they they had to have help because there was so many of us in all different places but they always we always had dinner together I think at the time when from when I sort of remember the nights had reduced a bit they were kind of both consultants by that level so it gets a little bit easier they did still have to do some nights but they were mainly at home so we always had dinners together you know weekends and I remember the family holidays I think that's the thing you really remember a lot yeah we used to go to France and go camping and things like that yeah did it make you think like a head to the future and what life would look like with your own family I think so I think I always wanted a big family I'd always said I wanted three kids um and it was only after I think it was actually just before I got pregnant with Belle I suddenly they thought oh my god I always wanted three maybe we should have another um and then Pete said to me oh my god I've always wanted five and that was a moment we were like oh maybe we should have another baby but yeah I think I always did want a big family I like just the kind of closeness of a family unit but it's not always easy you know I think I didn't quite realize how tough it can be being a parent really well you don't know what you're doing really even seeing your mom and dad juggle so much with five kids but probably why you lowered it to three you know let's make it a He's one of six, he lowered it to five.

10:59But it's that thing, isn't it? I guess if you've seen parents juggling it, but you don't really see the intricate details of what that juggling actually is. You don't see what's going on in the background. I remember things like getting up so early in the morning that Sesame Street hadn't even come on the telly yet because the telly would just be blank. So I dread to think what time of the morning that was. Probably five. and my dad making lunch boxes like lining them up and doing like one after the next and me and the boys just being awake from ridiculously early and just those things you just don't twig and then he was obviously you know my mum going off and doing a full day's yeah work coming home and you don't see all the little bits that parents do until you have your own kids yeah you don't think about where the toilet roll comes from miraculously it's just there or the washing powder or whatever it is you know these things just get replaced they do they just appear like fairies yeah there's food on the table that's it yeah no you don't think of it you don't you do it obviously when you met pete uh he already had two children so you are instantly put in that role yeah not straight away of stepmom but that is a role you are instantly kind of you're in you've got two children in your lives yeah straight away it's sort of built slowly because I think I wouldn't expect to step into that role immediately.

12:25And I was young as well, you know, so I think we were always really cautious in the beginning about, you know, how much I was around. And we joke about this now with the kids, it's so funny, but we didn't show a bedroom for the first year that we were together. Yeah, when the kids were there. You know, because he wanted to be respectful. And, you know, and I really, I actually really admired that at the time, that he always would put them first and everything. I thought that was really lovely. Did it feel daunting being early 20s and suddenly finding yourself in that role? Yeah, a little bit it did, I think.

12:59But I think the fact that it kind of developed slowly was what sort of made it manageable. And I say this, and I promise I'm not just saying this, they're so lovely. Honestly, in, I don't know how many years now, probably we must have been together 14 years, something like that, long anyway, I honestly think I've told them off less times than I could count on one hand. Really? Sit between them. Like, they're so lovely. They've made it so easy for me. It's not been, you know, I think about all the years really fondly. Like, they're just great. You know, you'd have thought we would have fallen out at some point or I'd have had to really have a go at them about something.

13:41Like, no. I think, and I've said this a lot on the podcast, the role of a step mum or a step parent is a really special one. And if done well, it's such an honour to be able to be that extra caregiver, that extra bit of guidance, that extra bit of stability in a child's life. I think it's really beautiful. Thank you. I think it's, you know, it's, I do, I always feel lucky that they've kind of accepted me into their family. and I think then when we had Millie and Theo and Belle as well it kind of even cements you more as a family but I always feel like you know I'm not I'm not their mum and I have that's something that I always have to you know make sure I tread that line carefully and I always see it I think I always see it a bit more like being a big sister which I don't know if that's the right way to look at it but I think you know I was trying to give them guidance but I don't I wouldn't kind of overstep that yeah like i obviously try and support them like i would do with with my kids i was trying to be the same i'm quite strict though on my kids yeah that's what i say to the audience lucky there's an age gap you know because then you guys don't need to worry like yeah silly silly rules i have but like screen time and stuff like that yeah i'm like you guys can be exempt because you're older the age gap's enough that my kids don't ask the question well why are they allowed to have the screens.

15:06Yeah, that's all right. That's good. So it's all right. Yeah. The age gap's enough. Talk to me about you and Pete when you decided to start trying for a baby. Was that a big thing? Were you already talking about it? So with Millie, I would say it was probably a bit more of a surprise. I was still at uni and those things. So it was a bit of a surprise, but absolutely so glad that I did. I'm so glad that I had her quite young because now I feel like quite cool, like quite cool, young, youngish mum. So it was it was a bit of an adjustment for me at 24. I mean, how was that? Like discovering that still have still being at uni, still knowing that there's so much studying left to do.

15:56Yeah. And kind of going, that's a big curveball that might change. It was a big curveball. The funny thing was I knew I was going to finish my degree. Like that wasn't an option for me. I'd worked so hard for so long. I think people thought I would just drop it. Well, that was never going to happen. But after she was born, I went back full time to uni when she was about seven months old or something. But I was so focused because I had her at home that I knew I had to just get it in proportion here. Like I had her to look after and I had to study, but I could only do so much. and it was actually great so where a lot of people I mean doing a medical degree is pretty stressful they'd be up working till four or five in the morning and then up up again at seven you know getting no sleep I couldn't do that because I was looking after her so I kind of had my boundaries really in place and I was really chilled I remember turning up for my finals she was 10 months old when I sat my finals and I remember turning up and thinking I feel really calm and everyone around is really stressed and I was like oh my god am I missing something and I I didn't talk to anyone before I went into the exam because I thought I can't deal with this stressfulness.

17:05I went in, put my head down and they went really well. So I don't quite know how, but I think it somehow gave me a focus of like, get this in perspective. Yeah. Don't try and do everything that you can't do. Do your best and just, you know, try and stay calm. Yeah. I don't quite well under stress. I just like to do that. Don't you? Calm. I like this. I'm not always calm. Are you not? No. No, not always. Try to be. So first time round, before doing the test, did you have symptoms? Yes, I just felt weird. I just felt weird. I don't know, is that a thing? Yeah, because your hormones are doing things and you can feel a bit off.

17:47Yeah, absolutely. It just felt very weird. And so I don't even know what made me do a test, to be quite honest with you. But I remember we'd gone away somewhere and I said to Pete on the plane, I was watching a movie and it had a baby in it and I said to him I don't know why I just feel like I feel like I need to do a test yeah and he was like really and then yeah and then it was and we were like oh my god oh my god what is going on I mean how was the pregnancy because obviously you're studying throughout it still like at what point did you kind of go I'm gonna stop that you know because there's so much going on it was quite bad because they the way my university did it they sort of split finals a little bit in fourth year and then kind of a main bulk in fifth year so I had to do the first bit of it when I was about 10 weeks pregnant so obviously no one knew I was pregnant but I was really sick yeah and trying to revise for these exams and I just remember being like oh god this is awful it was I have to say yeah that was pretty bad um that was pretty bad um so I got through that and then the sickness kind of really settled down so it wasn't too yeah it was all right but that was tough trying to do the exams and I was like did you get sick in your pregnancy no a bit of bit of nausea but nothing no actual sickness no I never actually vomited but I just had that I wish I would I wish I had yeah that sounds really weird to say no I totally get that just that lingering feeling of it yeah yeah and then actually if I'm ever in the back in a car and i've got the phone in my hand if when i'm pregnant i can't um that makes me feel sick and it's kind of lingered actually in everyday life now so some some of the things do linger so the smell of cooking chicken always made me feel sick when i was pregnant and it still sort of does now i don't know why it's bus fumes for me oh yeah a bus exhaust that that sends me over still yeah yeah the funny thing was i wasn't sick at all with Theo had not one day of sickness I was the worst with Belle I was sick so nauseous up to like 20 weeks so so it's a girl thing maybe maybe for you that the extra hormone might be the thing that I mean I'm I'm saying that to a doctor you'll know more than me I don't know what the evidence is actually there is there's there are myths aren't there that you get more sick with girls that was definitely the case for me but there might be no science behind it I'm not sure very true how did you feel heading towards the birth?

20:12Because obviously as a doctor or, you know, as a medical student at that time, you know things. Yeah. I think I, I think I was a little bit, not in denial, that's the wrong word, but I, I don't think I kind of expected it to happen. Right. It's almost like the pregnancy went too slowly. You didn't expect the baby to come out? No, not really. Okay. I just, also she was three weeks early, which sounds ridiculous, but I just wasn't quite ready for three weeks to go. You'd have thought I'd have been completely on it but I actually did a bit of a silly thing because we were in Surrey which is where we were living at the time and we'd always planned we were going to go home to be with my mum and dad and my waters went in like early morning and I was like this isn't the plan.

21:02The plan is I'm going home. So I literally rang my mum And we were like, I'm just going to get in the car. So we did. So let me play a little clip from Pete. I want to give you Pete's version of this. And then I want a fact check and a debrief from you. OK. Her mum goes, so how are you getting on? And I go, we're just fine. Everything's fantastic. She's just, everything's, I'm out of breath. I'm panicking. I'm in hysterics. She's there going, oh, no, I think, I think it's, I'm three centimetres. You know, she knew what she was. She was so calm. I'm crying. She's giving me tissues. She's absolutely calm.

21:43I'm going, hun, I just love you so much. Everything's going to be fine. Her mum's going, I need you to calm down, Pete. Like as if I'm going through labour. Right? So we get to the place. My brain's not working. I go straight past the entrance to find a parking spot. Right? The mum's rushing out going, you need to reverse. You need to reverse. I reverse. I get out of the car. this lady comes up and goes, oh, can you do a photo with my son? Emily's going, we've got to go. I take the photo. And then she goes, can we do one this way? Emily, I mean, I feel so bad when I think about this. I feel so bad.

22:20I'm there standing going, hey, thumbs up. He's going, get me inside. Right, Emily, tell me what you just said. That was pretty accurate. He was very emotional the whole way down. The whole drive. The whole drive. Every time I'd be like, ooh, my tummy's a bit sore. He's driving and I could see him gripping. Like tears are coming down. Honestly, it was actually hilarious. And every time we would go past another, you know, we'd go past Swindon. Yeah. We'd go past Bristol because we were obviously going out towards the West Country. And my mum was going, because I was getting quite a lot of pains.

23:01But I was saying to her mum, I don't think this is labour. I think I'm going to get to the hospital and they're just going to send me home and say, get in the bath and take some paracetamol. I said, I'm not even taking paracetamol because this isn't labor. It can't be like, this is not it. Little did I know when I got there, I was eight centimeters dilated. So I basically labored the whole thing in the car. Oh, my gosh. Because going back to your point of you know everything. You were a medical student. I thought I knew everything. I thought like first baby, this is going to take 24 hours. Yeah.

23:31No, she was out. like rapidly. I mean, I also like the fact that you were going, yes, I'm three centimetres. No, I was just thinking, I don't know if I used those words. I think I was going, no, this is not labour. This is just twinges. And my mum was going, are you sure? Pete's crying, gripping the thing. What happened though, what he was talking about, we got to the hospital, he drove past the door. And by that point, I was in a fair bit of pain. I said to him, go back. And he couldn't go back. So I got out and it was as soon as I stood up, because I'd been in the car for like three and a half hours, obviously the pressure.

24:01And then I was like, so I was crawling in. And he's so lovely, right? I just felt like saying to him, just for once, say no to a photo. He's always so lovely. You know, people are so kind to him as well. So he always obviously does pictures of people. But your wife is crawling on the floor in labor. Oh, God. And that was the point where I was like, get me inside. I'm about to die. I hadn't even taken paracetamol. I said tomorrow I'd taken nothing oh my gosh and then when they told me I was eight centimeters I was like oh that makes a lot of sense that's why it really hurts now oh my goodness and then she was born like within I don't know I don't think I was there more than two hours before she was born really yeah she literally was out and then I went so we left Surrey at like seven in the morning drove four hours I was in hospital she was born after a couple of hours and I was at home having dinner with my mum and dad by six o 'clock that night oh I was out gosh I was gone home with the baby so I think that was such a quick how do you is that what you'd planned to do is that what you wanted just just wanted give me the baby and go yeah I just wanted to get home was your mum with you yeah my mum and dad were there yeah oh no no my in the labour was just my mum yeah my dad was operating that day so he was coming in and out he had his little operating clogs on I mean that must be such a surreal experience in a family of doctors do you know what I mean it's a very different outlook like I can remember being being sewn up after you know getting some stitches down below um and uh Buzz trying to sort of trying to get him to latch and somehow my dad had talked his way up to the delivery ward I could just hear my dad's booming voice my dad being on the delivery ward is very different to your but your dad being on the delivery ward someone who actually has medical knowledge.

25:55He was just popping in and out. And I remember my mum going, can you either come in or go out? But either way, can you just close the door? Because he was just wandering in and out. I'm very close to my dad, so it was fine. I just remember seeing his little clogs, you know, like the theatre clogs. He was in his scrubs. It was a, yeah, it was a very surreal experience. Did it make you feel calm, having them around? Yes. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I guess they've got quite a lot of experience with babies. They do. having had five times yeah but um she was she was born so quickly that i think that was part of when i said i wasn't quite prepared i think that was the other thing that happened because one minute we were in surrey the next minute i was at my parents with a baby i remember she was on in the moses basket we were eating dinner and i was like so surreal that was it and i was really lucky because i didn't have any stitches there was no complications or anything so i kind of felt completely normal.

26:52I can remember, Emily, I've just had a memory. When was Amelia Bourne? 2014, in January. In January. So I had Buzz in the March. Really? Yeah, and I can remember having Buzz and, you know, because all bodies are different, right? Yeah. And I can remember really ballooning and I can remember the front page of like, OK, or Hello Magazine was a quote from you, which wouldn't have been from you. We all know how magazines work. It would be saying, I only put on this amount and be like oh my god that's not even the size of my baby I hate that I'm so sorry no no no but it's that it's also it's really important I think to kind of talk about that in the sense that actually media can kind of they take these snippets of things that aren't necessarily what people have said or what people have experienced or they ask you the question I think but then obviously you answer it yeah but it's not necessarily a piece of information that you would have volunteered necessarily also I mean I was being asked at that time.

27:50So have you, you know, have you thought about your fitness plan afterwards? I was like, he's still in me. I've got to get him out. I'm not thinking about, you know, I'll be lucky if I can walk the shops. But it is, it's a really weird thing when you think 11 years ago, how our bodies were being talked about when it came down to the fact that our bodies were growing humans. That should be the thing. 100%. You don't need to apologise. Your body's your body. And also you were 24. No, but I remember, and I remember being upset about this because I remember, I remember people saying, and I never read comments anymore, ever.

28:22I never read them. But I remember reading comments of people saying, well, it's fine for you. You've got a chef and a personal trainer. I remember. I still don't do any exercise. I'm really, really lazy. But I remember thinking, but I don't. That's just, she was born early as well. So don't forget. So I never got to the stage, you know, when you start, some people get fluid retention and things like that. That never really happened. And maybe being quite tall as well. I've always carried the kids quite small. Different bodies. You know what I mean? different bodies do different things it it was just how it was and i was 24 and like you said completely different to when i had bell at the how was i 34 comparisons just shouldn't be made i would say comparison is like the root of all evil it's just a stupid thing to do to compare people against each other because it's just no no two people are the same and also with something like that we don't know what's going on mentally or with someone's recovery or anything like that so So having something like that out there, which actually can be quite ostracizing, is so unhelpful to a new mum.

29:19Yeah, it is. But I think, again, it's just comparing people up against each other. There's just no point whatsoever. I can promise you I didn't have a chef or a personal trainer. I think I just was, I don't know. Good genes. That's all right. They were quite small babies. I had quite little babies. Yeah, maybe I just don't. I don't, my mum, all of us were really big and my mum's really tiny. And then when I was, I'm really tall and I had these little tiny babies. It's just, you know, I don't know, but it's not right.

30:00Getting pregnant the second time round, how was this? Did you think about age gaps? Does it merge into one for you? Because I feel like I forget what on earth is going on. I feel like Buzz got to 15 months and we suddenly went, oh gosh. If we wanted to see the age gap, this is now. So what's the age gap between your eldest two? 23 months for the top two and then two and a half years for between second and third. Okay, so Lily and Theo were like two years, ten months apart. Right. So we probably left it a bit longer than you did before going, ooh, maybe now's the time. But yeah, I remember we sort of decided and then the next minute it sort of happened.

30:41But I guess finding out this time round, was it a bit more like, okay. It was calmer. Because you feel like it's still a bit of a, oh, when there's a pregnancy test. Even if you're like, that's what you're aiming towards. Yes, it's always a bit of a moment of like, okay, that's real now. Okay then. But I think my life was in a completely different place. I was working. I had more of a support network around me because I'd been in Surrey longer by that point so I had like some friends and colleagues and people around me whereas I think when I went there after Millie was born I'd literally moved in such a hurry I didn't have one single person that I knew so I was kind of on my own quite a bit and that made it quite a lot harder whereas with Theo I just was more established because I've been working there and things like that so it was easier from that perspective for sure well how did you feel heading into to this birth um he was footling breach which means his feet were the first thing presenting so the feet were right down at the bottom and some people do choose to have a vaginal delivery in that situation for me i decided not to there's a bit of a risk of what's called a cord prolapse which is where if your waters break if the feet are down there's nothing kind of blocking the the exit if you like so it's the piece of the cord can come down first right and then that's really dangerous and I didn't want to take that that risk that was just my decision some people some people can would weigh that up in a different way but that was what I decided to do um kind of had lots of backwards and forwards chats about risk and benefit and all of that stuff but he was also quite dinky he was quite little so there was kind of bit of worries about his size and that he wasn't maybe growing quite how they wanted him to and I also got lots and lots and lots and lots of Braxton Hicks so I was kind of in hospital with like they kept thinking I was going into labor from about 23 weeks oh wow never did I they now wonder it's because his feet were down just like oh yeah you know pattering away down below whether that was kind of causing quite a lot of mini contractions all the time so all of that kind have happened and because of his growth and things like that he was born three weeks early as well so and he was really quite tiny and he was quite poorly after he was born he went home normally but then he was back in hospital after about a week because he didn't grow very well and yeah he got bronchiolitis when they end you end up going back in yeah so he was admitted back in when he was about a week old with bronchiolitis so yeah it was funny actually it's not funny at all but he was he sort of would stop breathing when we were at home and I'd be feeding him and thinking he thought was going a bit of a funny color and it's so funny when it's your own child even as a doctor you don't it's really hard to like make decisions about that doesn't seem quite right and I had to ask somebody else really it's really I can't really explain it but you just become a mum yeah not a doctor yeah and then when speaking to somebody else he said that's definitely not right and then he got admitted to hospital after that and was really quite poorly but it's so funny that decision making capacity goes completely out the window because also i guess as a doctor you know so much that actually as a as a human when you're not in doctor mode you've got to filter out a lot of it otherwise you yeah life would be very difficult if you're constantly risk assessing you just over you would just overthink things and i also think that's not my job with my own children yeah my job's to be their mum not to be their doctor and that's why we have an amazing health service that if I'm worried about something I take them to the GP I don't you know I remember someone commenting on a post I did recently where I talked about going to a walk-in health visitor clinic which I find so helpful yeah you know they can weigh the baby they can give you advice on weaning and someone wrote in the comments I wish your posts were genuine you're a doctor obviously you wouldn't take your child to health visitor clinic and I just thought what a myth that is that a health professional wouldn't seek advice from another health professional.

34:41And there was a lovely lady who was actually at the same walking clinic I'd been to who commented and said, I was there on that day and I saw Emily there and she was there. And I thought, I'm so glad that, you know, bless her that she had said that because I just thought what a myth that someone who works for the health service. Or that you'd be creating or saying something simply to, for what? For what purpose? I honestly just thought what a great resource. I'll quickly share this with everyone. That was all that was in my mind. But, you know, yeah, I just thought that was a really interesting perception.

35:14People can be interesting. Yeah. So how was the C-section? Because I understand that you were quite worried going into it. Knowing as much as you do, how was that? Do you know, it was actually quite calm. Really? I think because I had a two-year-old as well, I always had that worry of what would I do if I went into labour? Yeah. Who would have her? how would I look after her so we came we went down to the west country again once we knew because things that this complication there were never major complications but they were starting to get a little bit like oh maybe we need to keep a closer eye on you so we went down there and then once the date was set I felt quite calm really I knew it was coming up yeah obviously worried about the procedure a bit because I think what people forget is it's a major operation you know you're it's a major surgery um and then kind of thinking about recovery and having a two-year-old and a baby and all of those things so i was nervous from that perspective because that's the thing isn't it like we understand it's sort of as as general humans but you know you'd know medically what that is yeah i've seen quite a few c-sections then so knowing that that is happening to you it's a weird thought yeah it's a very weird thought but I think also I trust the the professionals and that's all you can do yeah because again like you go in there not as a doctor you're going in as a patient and I have to trust what they say and and do you know what I've they've just been amazing I had all my three children at um Musgrove in Taunton and they're just they've just so fab yeah it just makes me think wow the NHS is just brilliant I know it's got you know issues but how lucky that we can just walk in and get all this care for free you know yeah it's pretty amazing how did the the two first experiences compare i think they were like similar in some ways but also totally different the c-section versus their natural delivery is just so such a different different especially elective c-section because it's so planned And, you know, you go in and you do all the questions and they put the cannula in and then you're there.

37:23You're like, next minute you're in theatre and the baby's out. I don't think people realise from like knife to skin to the baby being delivered can be literally a case of sometimes a minute or, you know, really quick. It's like, oh, my God, they're here. I love the natural delivery. There's something about it that feels so instinctive and amazing. You feel like a real achievement at the end of it. But for me, I think there can be a stigma around having a C-section. I think people can be like, well, it's a failure. I've had a C-section. I just don't believe in that at all. No. I think everybody has the right to make that choice.

37:57And you obviously weigh up all the factors for you, for the baby and everything. And that's your own choice. I don't think anyone should feel a certain way about either option. Absolutely. How was Pete in that setting? He was fine, actually. Was he? Probably a bit calmer. He's a real, he really shows his emotions, which I really love. Yeah. Yeah, when all the kids were born, he cries a lot. And it's really sweet. So he'd said when I was pregnant with Belle, he said, I don't think I'm going to cry when she's born. He said, I just don't think I will. You know, it's fifth child. I'm so used to this now.

38:30Oh, my gosh. I think he cried more than any of the others. Really? I'll have to try and find some of the pictures to show because he was so sweet. Well, he said, I remember him saying that he literally doesn't want any of the photos. He can't even look at them because he cried so much. He really cried. He cried before she was even born. Really? Yes, when I was there, lying on the thing. So let's go into the third birth. How was this one, going into this one? And also, you had the same thing of me going into my third. I realised during it that that was going to be my last. And it was a really weird experience, really weird realisation.

39:05Are you 100 %? I mean, I think so. That's a no. No, I think so. I'm 40 now. I think so. Yeah. It's never, you know. See, if you ask me that question, I could say 100%. No, to be honest though, mine are 11, 9 and 6. We're in a good place. Yeah. You know what I mean? You're out of that stage. Yeah, yeah. But obviously I look at babies and go, oh, you're so sweet. And then I remember the sleepless nights and everything else. Yeah, yeah. I feel like I've done my time, you know? You know what? And a family with three kids is actually a really lovely dynamic. I don't know. I just I think three is a lovely number yeah I feel like I want to enjoy what we've already created yeah I get that yeah it's a definite no from me we're not really no did you know that before going in yes I think so and I think I found the pregnancy so much harder because I was so sick I had just weird complications all the way through really yeah just things which it was just hard it was just a lot harder maybe again because I was a bit older but again she was breech had two two breech babies and because I'd already had a c-section yeah and she was breech so it was always planned that I was going to have another c-section yeah there was just same thing I had lots of funny contractions all the time she actually made it nearly to 38 weeks so she got almost a week well I managed about another five days further than the other two she was also quite dinky she had so much hair you could see it on the scan did any of yours have this where you could see her hair like wafting it was just so sweet and then when she was born she had tons and tons of dark hair yeah I haven't really spoken really about her birth and what happened afterwards because it was so hard and awful but yeah like it was it was tough like I was really unwell after she was born there was quite a lot of complications and I can't believe this it's all right oh my gosh I talk about this all the time at home I never get upset about it but um yeah so I had to go back for emergency surgery she was a week old so I kind of had to hand her that was the worst bit I had to kind of hand her over and go in for another another operation um what happened so i had like a really rare they all the consultants i've seen have said we've never seen this in our whole career and i think oh for god's sake why did it have to happen to me um i basically developed a really rare type of hernia that was quite large and this is really actually quite disgusting to talk about i'm so sorry um yeah so yeah basically kind of part of my bowels were kind of in the wrong place that's essentially the way to say it so and the type of hernia that it was can strangulate quite easily and then that ends up really being an emergency so I knew things weren't right after she was born because I had a big huge lump in my tummy kind of sticking right out and so they got me back after a week to kind of follow me up and they said that we need to get the surgeons to come and look at you and this was in the evening and the surgeon literally looked and said you need to come into hospital like now and I was like what do you mean I just did not one part of me expected it to see yeah so they scanned they could see that it was my bowels that had come out basically and um yeah so I just didn't expect it so then I literally said please can I go home I just want to prepare and I wanted to I was breastfeeding so I suddenly thought oh my god I'm gonna have to express milk like how am I gonna feed her if I'm on the operating table so they let me go home and I could do all of that were you in pain yeah really really bad I knew I knew it wasn't right it was not right um so yeah then the next morning I was straight back in and going off to theatre was like the worst like handing her over to my mum was just oh I was a right mess um yeah it was it was really hard so um yeah there was there was one thing that like made me smile I got into theatre and I was like lying on the table and the porter that had brought me across was so lovely and he was like talking to you obviously I was like in floods of tears and he said oh you know I brought Pete here into this theatre when he had so the way Pete and I met was that my dad had operated on him like we were then friends after the years and it was in the same theatre and he said this was exactly where he lay and this is the room where he met your dad and I was like oh And it was just such a nice moment of like, okay, that's a really nice thing.

43:49A reassuring thing. Yeah, it was just something that took my mind off it. So yeah, then the recovery from that was quite awful. Really? Yeah, so that was really quite painful. So I was in hospital for, I can't even remember now, probably two or three days. And then the recovery was really, really slow. They had to obviously do quite a lot of stitching up and... Moving things around. Moving things around. So the pain was quite bad. But, you know, I feel like I'm pretty much back to health now. But pretty much back to health now. Arabella is over one years old. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's not like you are doing a great thing of, but it's all right.

44:26It was hard at the time. The fact that you are pretty much back to health now just shows how terrible it was. Yeah. It was quite bad, to be honest. I felt really lucky. Pete was amazing. My mum and dad were amazing. And the NHS, honestly, I can't thank enough the doctors who looked after me. and the nurses and the midwives were like absolutely amazing. Have you looked into though why that would have happened? They don't know. They said I'm like a strange... So is it something that your body just reacts and causes? There was some kind of defect in the muscle in my tummy. It was quite high up that just whether it was caused from the previous C-section, whether it just happened in the pregnancy and we didn't know about it.

45:10They don't really know. Maybe they'll write me up as a case. Because everyone I've seen, obviously it required quite a lot of follow up and things like that afterwards as well. But everyone who I've seen has been like, well, I've never heard of that before. Yeah. I think, oh, OK. But I never spoke about it at the time because I think, I don't know. I don't know why I didn't. I think. Also, it's your time. You've got to allow your time to process. You know what I mean? Sometimes I think everyone's really different. Sometimes people process as they share and other people have to kind of take a step back and go, actually, I need to sit with this before I talk about it.

45:41I think that's what it was. And I also, I don't know, I don't want to kind of make a drama about it. You know, when you always feel like, I just felt like, actually, I'm just going to deal with this. And then, yeah, maybe today, clearly I'm not ready to talk about it. Look, I've become an emotional mess. So sorry. But it's hard. It was the handing her over. That was the worst part of it was just, you know. And then once I came round again, I was okay. Obviously the recovery was hard, but it was, oh God, it was just so tricky. Where I was really lucky was they allowed me to be looked after by the midwives afterwards.

46:19To go back on that ward rather than... Yeah, otherwise I would have had to, she would have had to be at home and I'd have had to be separated from her all that time. So that's where they were, you know, and they said they always do that, try and, you know... So was she able to stay with you in hospital? Yeah, so she stayed with me. Yeah. So that was like, you know, I was breastfeeding her and things like that. So that was all I was thinking about. I was like, don't take my baby away from me. Emily, I'm going to put this out there. You haven't been away from Arabella since she's been born. This is something we've spoken about a couple of times.

46:47Yes. Do you think that this start has something to do with it? Maybe. I actually had never thought of that. Yeah, you could be right. That fear of handing her over, knowing that you're going into surgery. You know the risks from surgery. You know you're being cut open. And, you know, you know what complications can arise. It's a huge thing. Yeah, you know, I never thought of it like that. Maybe you should be a psychologist. Wow. Maybe birth a little bit of therapy. Yeah. You know what I mean? But I'm saying that flippantly, but that thing of maybe there is something to unpack there because it's such a massive, massive thing and you've never spent a night away from her and it's a big thing that you're trying to work up towards.

47:32And I know we all feel it, but maybe there is something a little bit. I do find it really hard. I have left her during, like, obviously today. I've left her with Pete. He's doing so well. He's really getting her routine. He's fab. So daytime, I've got quite good. There's something about putting her to bed, or at least, you know, even if I'm out in the evening, I always go, this is a really weird thing. I don't know if you ever did this. I just love her smell. I did it with all the kids. Oh, gosh, yeah. I just want to, I just go in and just have a little sniff. And then I even love it now with an 11 year old.

48:04I'm like, oh, you smelly boy. It's just the smell. They just smell so amazing. I have this thing about her feet as well. The smell of her feet is really strange. Pete's like, you're so weird. But I just, there's just something about that. As long as I've sort of seen her and I just sort of, you know, sat there in her bed and. But also maybe it's also because she's your last and, you know, you kind of, I do think we hold onto that a little bit longer. Yeah. but for other things with the third I don't know about you but I'm like I'll be fine do you know what I mean? definitely some things I'm really blasé about like the older two are so sweet I don't know what your older two are like but they just absolutely don't want her and adore her where I thought the novelty would have worn off by now you know a bit like when I don't know you get a pet and they're really oh yeah I'll feed the fish for the first few months and then no sorry mum can you feed the fish whatever it is you know but they've not been like that with her They absolutely love her.

48:56And they'll be like, mum, she's crawling too near to that table. And I say, guys, she's got to learn. She can't hurt herself on anything around here, but she's got to learn. You've got to let her go a little bit. Mum, she's gone out the door. I said, no, it's OK. I can see her. She's all right. I'm watching her. We've got no steps in our house. Like, the whole first floor is completely flat. So I know she can't go anywhere. Mum, she's going near the stairs. She's all right. I'm watching her. See, my boys are like that with my niece, so Tom's sister. Carrie, they absolutely adore Mabel, but they're just so close to her all the time.

49:29It's like, we know that she, just let her, give her some space. Give her, let her roam. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I love seeing them. It's sweet. Yeah. I love it. Belle's got this thing about eating soil. Maybe they should watch her. Just saying. It's one of those, I don't want to have to keep picking her up. I want her to be able to touch the soil and feel it. And then every now and then, she'll almost do it like, you're not looking at me. She'll just grab it and just eat so quickly. And they're like, oh, for goodness sake. Not again. She's eaten another half. Even if I'm sat right next to her, the soil.

50:03I'm sure some gut health doctor right now is going, this is very good. She's had at least three mouthfuls of soil, like full mouthfuls. And I'm trying to like scrape it out of her mouth. Oh, gosh. Gut health, Emily. Gut health, I'm sure. She seems to be doing it less. I think she's learned that it just tastes quite horrible. But it's that balance between like, I like to let her just, you know, because that's how they learn, isn't it? It's how they build up strength as well, is by going and exploring and pulling themselves up on things and, you know, opening a cupboard or whatever it is. Yeah. So I haven't got any cupboard locks yet.

50:35She can't quite open our kitchen cupboards. But when she can, I will have to probably do something. But I like her just exploring. Yeah, no, that's nice. It also encourages them, doesn't it, to just explore. Inquisitive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. Absolutely. I love that. Do you think you knew before the complications that that was going to be it? Yes. Or have they cemented it? It's absolutely cemented now, but we'd always said it would be the last anyway. Yeah. Five's enough. We don't have any more bedrooms in the house, for starters. So that's a good enough reason. The car would, I don't know, we'd have to get a bus.

51:14Yeah. We actually don't even have a seven-seater anymore, actually, because Julia and Princess can both drive. Amazing. I know. But still, no, so we knew. We have a seven-seater just so that the fighting can stop. No, no, no. No, just because three in the back, unless I'm sat in there with them, they will squabble. You know, I've seen great things on Instagram where people put, like, cardboard boxes between the, like, It's such a good idea. It's so good because if they can't see each other, they can't feel each other breathe. It's great. Do they squabble with your youngest? Because our eldest two squabble together, like, terribly.

51:43Oh, no, Max is now in the fold as well. He's absolutely in the fold. So now one of them goes in the back. at least there's a bit of distance. You know what I mean? So, yeah. Maybe we need to do that. Or I need to put the car seat... But if they're not arguing, then it's all right. Maybe not. They love each other, but they just... I think that's what... You know, I think siblings, they see the best of each other and they see the worst of each other. I think they experiment. I think they are the people that they feel the most comfortable with. So, behaviour spills out in a way that they can't...

52:12They simply cannot act at school or in an everyday setting. What makes us laugh is that Millie, when I was pregnant with Belle, we said, right, Millie, you know, it's the time you're going to have your own room. So spare room became Millie's room. And, you know, I decorated it for her and made it all girly and everything. And she stayed up there for a little bit. Yeah. She's just gone because she was sharing with Theo before. She's gone right back. So they argue and squabble with each other. And she goes, that's it. Not staying in your room tonight. She sure does stay in the room with him every night.

52:47Even though she's got her bedroom upstairs, which is kind of great because it means we can actually still use it as a spare room if we need it, but they just gravitate back to each other. So they love each other but then just squabble. Yeah. From the first thing in the morning. Do you have that? Yeah, absolutely. The first thing I hear. There's always something. Mum, Millie pushed me on the shoulder. I mean, how do you navigate the fact that when everyone is home, when Ginny and Princess are home, it's such a big age difference between top to the bottom. What is that family dynamic like? Is it a case of everyone just getting stuck in?

53:24Yeah, I think so. They have a lovely relationship, all of them, together. It's really sweet. Even though the older two obviously now are out and about a lot more. They're busy and they're doing their own thing. When they see the younger kids, which obviously they do quite a lot, but less than they, you know, they're not in for dinner every night, for example. They're not at home. they just love them. It's just so sweet. And they get the biggest hugs and, you know, it's just, it's so nice. And I almost think, you know, like I said earlier, the age gap is so big that it kind of makes it actually easier because they're not in competition with each other.

54:02It's like the younger kids understand there's a completely different set of rules for the older two because they're basically grown up. But they're so sweet with them. Like princess will go and pick the kids up from school or, you know, they just, they're lovely. They're really lovely. Yeah. It's nice. One thing we both have is that our eldest children are going to secondary school in September. No. Can we just? No, I can't. I can't manage it. It just makes my head explode. I don't understand how we've got here. I needed to send photos in the other day. I don't know if you've had to do it yet where photos of them when they first started, like when they first started nursery.

54:38And oh my gosh, how young they look. But how also that thing of, it really doesn't seem like that long ago. I know everyone says that. I'll enjoy it. You know, it goes so fast when really most people are just like, I'm just in survival mode. So I don't feel like that's always helpful. But it's so bizarre to think they're now going to take on this whole new adventure that actually we're not as much of a part of. No, I know. No, I know there's already like a year seven WhatsApp group. But really us parents aren't going to be doing the same thing. I felt I don't want to say sad that's the wrong word but I almost felt like it had passed me by in a really weird way when I was looking back at the pictures of her I thought I don't know if I've been enough in the moment through all these years like where have that where's that time gone I must feel like I'm not ready for her to quite do it yet even though I think she is ready yeah and I think she's going to be fab i think she's going to be amazing but i don't feel like i'm quite ready for it no i'm not emily if you could write a letter on being a mum who would you write it to and what would you say this might be a really boring answer i think i'd write it to my to my girls who may be a mum one day and i think i would just say to them you know kind of what we're saying then live be in the moment yeah like enjoy every moment and and cherish those moments because they do pass you by and that saying of you know the years for like days the days for like years that one is really really true and that's the one thing I kind of wish I'd done more is just kind of notice things and appreciate things as they come up even if they are the kind of day-to-day things just to be there and you know just enjoy it but also I think I'd say to them that it's not all easy being a mum at all there are really difficult things and that's fine and normal um it is also absolutely lovely and amazing yeah and that's kind of how I would summarize I think we end the podcast with you completing three sentences the first one is being a mum means I think being a mum means love like unlocking feelings that you didn't even know you had and unlocking love that you didn't know you had how you have enough love for more than one child you know when you have another child you think i haven't got any more love left and you just have and it's a bit of a probably a bit of a cliche answer but i think it's true i think you just are generally cliches because they're true you know what i mean they're said so much yeah there's truth in them i think you just find new emotions in yourself you just didn't know were even there it's quite amazing yeah next sentence is since having children I so I think I was thinking about this and I remember a moment after Millie was born I was exhausted she'd just been born and I said to my mum I need to sleep I'm so tired so obviously I just given birth so I led there and closed my eyes about five seconds later she started crying and I remember thinking it was that like click moment of I don't come first anymore oh my gosh she needs to be fed I'm gonna have to feed her so I actually really think of it as a positive that since becoming a parent I don't put myself first anymore but it's really lovely that you have such like care for somebody else that it's just an automatic like joy to put them ahead of yourself and i really love that because it just comes you know and i always think that's the that's the kind of the crux of being a parent isn't it if you put your kids first then you'll always make the right decision even if it with hindsight you think i could have done it differently as long as you're putting them first you're doing it right and finally i'm happy when i'm actually happy when we're just all together on the sofa that i've got one here one there one on the other side pete there you know when you just have it's tiny just in here yeah pete's there got my arms around everyone you know when you just have that moment where you're like wow like this is our family i've done this this is great just when we're all together it doesn't happen often because obviously people are running around everywhere but you know just have that moment where you're like oh yeah i've made these humans created this is great i love that and the other thing i love going to watch them do things you know when you go and watch like a music performance or i just sit there like oh i'm so proud i love that i'm really the embarrassing mum like that's the other thing i know they're completely different things but no i love it i absolutely love it watching them yeah yeah do things just be so proud it could like just explode out of you with the pride.

59:28Yeah. Honestly, watching Buzz in Starlight, I actually felt this because he moved a piece of set at one point. And I was like, oh, he's even moving furniture well. But that's important. That's a very important part. It is. Yeah, thank you, Emily. It is. Emily, thank you so much. I have absolutely loved this. Thank you for having me. And I'm actually really glad that we didn't do you two together because it's been lovely just hearing about your views on parenting and your experience of motherhood and fatherhood separately. Thank you.