Episode 300: The Emma Willis Takeover

0:05Giovanna Fletcher: Hello guys, it's Emma Willis here and welcome to another episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Now, I know what you're thinking. Why are you chatting in my ears and not G? Well, this episode is a pretty big one because today we are celebrating 300 episodes of Happy mum, happy baby. And to mark the occasion, we have decided that it's time for a little bit of role reversal. So I'm going to be in the question seat. And today, G is going to be answering. She is going to be our guest. She's going to be walking through the doors any minute. She has no idea that this is happening. So fingers crossed.

0:48Giovanna Fletcher: She's pleased about it.

0:56Emma Willis: Why are you doing here? Why are you doing here? This is so, why are you here? Congratulations. Am I going to interview you again? No, I'm interviewing you. No!

1:15Hello and welcome to a very special episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby.

1:22Giovanna Fletcher: Do not adjust your ears. this is not Giovanna Fletcher. This is indeed Emma Willis. I am taking the reins in G's seat today because to celebrate the 300 episodes, we had to have a very special guest and that very special guest could be none other than the woman herself, Giovanna Fletcher. Yay! Thank you very much for having me. I'm not sure my intros were as good as yours are for your guests. I should have gone like, She's not only a mum of three boys, but she is an actress. She is an author. She is the host of the best podcast on the planet. Do you know what?

2:02Emma Willis: I get so scared of doing the intros. The intros are my worst bit, I would say, because after that, it's just about listening. It's about putting stuff out there and then listening to what comes back and building it, right? But that first bit, when you're trying to make that guest feel relaxed, but also you want to intro them, I have started over the years saying less and less and less because I also don't want to read anything.

2:20Giovanna Fletcher: so I'm just like

2:21Emma Willis: I want to be there straight away so actually we've recently I mean in the last few weeks taken that stress off completely and now I do a little intro when they're not in front of me

2:29Giovanna Fletcher: and it feels so much nicer also I do it's strange when it's your like one of your best friends is sat in front of you because I'm going to ask you questions that I already know the answers to because if we just sat here with no sheets we could chat we could chat all day long but we wouldn't be able to air any of it so it's good job we've got a guide keep us on track very true keep us on track

2:55Emma Willis: keep us specific yes

2:58Giovanna Fletcher: 300 episodes G

2:59Emma Willis: I know

3:00Giovanna Fletcher: take your mind back to that pilot that you did in that little room with no lights do you know what and no cameras I don't think

3:07Emma Willis: I randomly was back in that studio the other day and then he messaged you because I have never been there again since and it's not somewhere that we've ever recorded other than that one episode and I was back there and I was like oh wow this is where all of this started yeah yeah um but I can remember in the lead up to recording that uh because I'd had the idea because obviously I'd written the book and I knew that I wanted the conversation to continue I thought it needs to be about other people and I can remember before asking anyone else if they're on board uh we needed to see whether it worked and I can remember asking you and you ignoring me you ignored me for a couple of weeks and then it was your birthday and as I was saying goodbye I said I did message you about this podcast idea and he went oh I know gee I know it was very sweet you were just like you know yes I struggle but I have a house over my head I've got an amazing support team I've got an amazing husband I can put food on the table like I almost like I I can't what have I got to almost not complain about but yeah but essentially to complain about yeah but that's the point isn't it it doesn't matter what you have actually we all struggle and maybe if we take away all those other elements we can have a nice chat yeah um but so I did talk you around and being in that room and we it was very different then we kind of had a few set things we would talk about which made it easier actually the next time you came on because I was like oh my god we didn't talk about this and this it was just so easy but actually I it was when you were talking about breastfeeding and you let yourself be really vulnerable which something you don't generally do especially not with the mic well no with you yes but but not with the mic um and you sort of broke down and I just thought first of all it was amazing that you would let yourself go there well I think sometimes you know especially with those things that you can't help it where that emotion comes but knowing how much that would help other people I instantly knew then that this couldn't just be a pilot that we had to carry on because to have something that feels like a safe space where people can just kind of come and share and there's no judgement and we can all lean in with a really understanding ear I think that's just so special but I don't think I would have felt that had you not been my first guest in the way that you were

5:30Giovanna Fletcher: But you're a really good, you're a great chatter but you're an amazing listener Do you know what? I think I'm a good listener because I'm not a good chatter.

5:42Giovanna Fletcher: That's not true. That's not true at all.

5:47Emma Willis: I've had some episodes where I've come out and I've been like, I don't think I said anything in that.

5:52Giovanna Fletcher: But that's the beauty of a guest that loves to chat, right? Yeah. Because you can just ask a couple of key points. You're just nudging. Yeah. And then you're just kind of letting them go.

6:01Emma Willis: Yeah. And the beauty of silence sometimes makes them fill that void as well.

6:08Giovanna Fletcher: But you're a great chatter. Don't you get that one. Get that one out your brain. So what are we now? Nine years? Yeah. Nine years, G.

6:21Emma Willis: Isn't that crazy?

6:24Giovanna Fletcher: I've literally just done the maths in my head. When you were answering that question, G.S., I was just like, God, yeah, when was it? I just had Trixie. Yeah. It was 2017. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was 2017. Nine years and 300 episodes.

6:41Emma Willis: Yeah.

6:41Giovanna Fletcher: I was sat with Matt yesterday telling him what I was doing. He was like, that's amazing. He's the only person that knew. That's amazing. I said, yeah, 300 episodes. He nearly fell off the sofa. He was like, what?

6:54Emma Willis: Also, I feel like back in the day, we used to, when we first started, podcasts weren't what they are now. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So it's been interesting to see even how that world has shifted in that time.

7:06Giovanna Fletcher: I was scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, looking back at the guests you've had. And you've, I mean, you've kind of ticked a lot of boxes, haven't you? People just love this podcast.

7:21Emma Willis: It's pretty amazing.

7:22Giovanna Fletcher: And I think, you know, obviously the subject matter is so relatable to 50 % of the population. but it's you it's you that really does it because you are just so well you're a wonderful person you're great to listen to and you're a great listener as I've said but you are also like you just know how to support people

7:49Emma Willis: I'm getting emotional I'm talking about you

7:52Giovanna Fletcher: you know how to listen to people and you know how to support people and you know how to make people feel valid and I think you need to make, you know how to make people not feel alone. Do you know that you do all of that?

8:14Emma Willis: I get quite fidgety sometimes when people say nice things to me.

8:18Giovanna Fletcher: Well, you're keeping brilliant still now. There you go, you can have a tissue. What's that, five minutes in?

8:27Emma Willis: Oh, dear. Do I know that I do all of that?

8:31Giovanna Fletcher: Do you know your worth?

8:34Emma Willis: Does anyone know their worth? I mean, I think we're all kind of plodding our way through, hoping that we're making a difference. Well, maybe we're not all doing that, actually. I think I want to feel like the work that I do in life is adding value to others, making them feel seen and making them feel heard, making them feel less alone, making them feel like when they are in periods of their life that are meant to be absolutely rosy and everything you ever wish for, but they might be a bit dark and a bit surprising and overwhelming. I want people to feel like they're not, or know that they're not alone in those moments.

9:15Emma Willis: And I think we hear that so much, you're not alone. But there's so much depth within that that maybe just gets glossed over in the whole, you're not alone. And I think the things that have surprised me on the podcast is when people come on and they get really vulnerable. And just knowing what impact those words will have on others. Because I feel it when I'm sat in that chair. I feel when someone opens up and is just completely not really vulnerable and just there and sharing something that maybe they haven't shared openly before.

9:51Giovanna Fletcher: it's a lot

9:51Emma Willis: I would say it's a really special thing to know that you have a platform that people want to come on and share

10:01Giovanna Fletcher: what is so beautiful about it as well is that you're so you're so utterly selfless in it do you know what I mean like you're not doing it for the glory none of what you do is whether you're climbing mountains and raising money for Copperfield or whether you're sitting here and talking to parents about what it is really like in all you know all sorts of ways with with parenting it it's not for the oh look I'm doing great things it's a it's a because you genuinely care yeah I do and I think that's why

10:33Emma Willis: it resonates yeah also it gives me an amazing um not a sense of purpose but I think with Copperfield and the podcast, I know what good they do. But also for me, on a personal level, I guess, they've helped heal parts of me that I didn't maybe know needed healing over the last nine years. And actually, maybe it's no coincidence that I started the Trex in 2017 as well. So both things happen at the same time. And I have, over those nine years, sort of gathered little parts of me back or, you know, that were not even from motherhood, but from years before, maybe that feeling of not being worthy, of not being enough, of chasing friendships when people don't want to be your friend.

11:24Emma Willis: You know, not you. You've always been my friend. But, you know, just kind of feeling like, as a lot of women do, you know, I think we all feel like if we are a certain way, we will be worthy, we will be acceptable. But actually the beauty of this podcast and of the Trex is that I can simply be. And if I can just be and then give over myself completely and just listen, I don't know, it makes me feel... It makes me feel whole again.

11:55Giovanna Fletcher: Please cut to Atomic Kitten. If we're not, I don't even know what we're doing here. Come on.

12:08Giovanna Fletcher: there was joy there was sadness there was tears there was cake

12:13Emma Willis: but it does it's that weird thing right it kind of i think if you create something that is is beyond you because every everything both of those things as well i might be sort of steering the ship in some way or bringing people together or but i'm just a small cock in it i just put the things in place and it's what everyone else does with it that's beautiful it's what people do in this chair that makes this podcast beautiful yeah i sit there and listen but it's it's the space that's been created by the whole team and those guests trusting it that makes it brilliant it's the everyone around the treks the trekkers who come on and they fundraise and they do so much so i'm just a small cog who kind of helps the ship run but at the heart of both of those things is you aren't i lucky stop deflecting no but aren't i lucky to have something You know how you told me, like, you're allowed to feel pressure.

13:06Giovanna Fletcher: You are allowed to be that wonderful catalyst that makes great things happen.

13:13Emma Willis: It's bloody great, isn't it? You should put that on your Instagram. The catalyst of great things.

13:18Giovanna Fletcher: I am the catalyst that makes great things happen. But what we should do is talk about early life. Yes. Oh, gosh, are we going to childhood? We're going to childhood. I mean, obviously, I know little bits about that, but I don't know loads about your childhood. I obviously know your parents and I know your siblings. But what was life like growing up?

13:41Emma Willis: Well, for the first three years of my life, we lived above a cafe in Canning Town. And I have great memories there. Dad and my uncle Anselm used to work in the cafe. We used to be upstairs. There's great stories of us, you know, needing a poo or needing someone to wipe her bum on me pooing in the bath and shouting down to the cab that something could happen.

13:59Giovanna Fletcher: Imagine a little baby G.

14:02Emma Willis: Yeah. Mummy! Giovanna's pooed in the bath again! And after that we moved to Barkingside, which we loved. I just have so many memories of playing with Georgie and Mario and mum and dad just giving us freedom. I remember mum had this faux fur coat that we used to put on and we used to take her like really low stilettos. They're probably like two inches high and just sort of clip-flop our way around the garden. You know, we'd always be doing that. I would have off Fisher-Price roller skates, you know, the ones that kind of go onto your shoes. We'd get those on.

14:42Giovanna Fletcher: I love you had Fisher-Price ones. I had metal ones that you screwed the bottom on.

14:47Emma Willis: Wow.

14:48Giovanna Fletcher: There you go. Wow.

14:50Emma Willis: Jesus, I'm 40.

14:51Giovanna Fletcher: I'm nearly 50. Our time's changed.

14:56Emma Willis: Yeah, but I mean, I've got to say, those ones, aren't they great because they last for a long time? Don't have to worry about them. They're not the safest, but they do last a long time. Well, your modern day ones might, I say modern day, more modern day than mine.

15:10Giovanna Fletcher: Ours used to, when you used to skate on them, and because everything was so bumpy, the screw would just slowly come loose and then they'd fall off your feet.

15:20Emma Willis: Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's quite special. Yeah. so we lived at Barkerside until I was nine school life there wasn't amazing I got bullied and I guess that's where my first thing of sort of friendships feeling like I was chasing a friend like chasing friends wanted to feel included yeah yeah and I spent a lot of time walking around the field singing to myself acting out little stories in my head

15:47Giovanna Fletcher: but had you always been that child anyway did you enjoy performing before those days of kind of needing it as a place to escape?

15:57Emma Willis: I think me, Mario and Georgie all had, we loved creative play. Like all of us, we'd always go off and make up plays and things like that. So I think we were creative, but I didn't have an outlet for it. Like at school then, there wasn't really, like we didn't really do big like, you know, concerts or anything like that. and so at nine we moved to Ingate Stone which was it blew my mind because it was so green I remember feeling like Mary Poppins on my first day going to school plus I walked to school on my own which felt so alien and it was more countryside and it just felt incredible and from there that's when I started singing so at the age of nine and how old was I I would have been nine when I decided to audition for um the local amdram were doing uh the wizard of oz and by this point i had sung once at a school concert at the end of uh year i don't know year three or year four um and uh and then i just auditioned and i got dorothy and then that was it that was there was no stabbing her just that sudden that feeling of like community coming together and that's what you get in a little village right you get that kind of community vibes everyone kind of leaning in and school life better once you moved there?

17:17School life was better.

17:19Emma Willis: Yeah, no, it was better, it was better. And then at 13, though, I saw Sylvia on the TV. And funny, looking back at it, because Tom is right there in the front row with her because she had some pupils around her. I don't know if Matt was there, actually. But she was on Live and Kicking being interviewed. And at the bottom of the TV, there was a strapline about the prospectors to call up. So I did without telling my mum and dad. and then filled in the forms for the scholarship, sent it off. And then when that came back, I was like, Mum, Dad, we've got to go to London. We've got to audition.

17:52Giovanna Fletcher: That is nuts that you saw Sylvia on Live and Kickin and Tom was on there with her. Isn't that crazy? And you didn't know him.

18:02Emma Willis: Yeah.

18:03Giovanna Fletcher: But your future husband and father of your children was on the telly staring at you unknowingly.

18:12Emma Willis: not knowing that his future wife was watching probably flirting with one of the other girls always wow yeah and then you auditioned for Sylvia's auditioned for Sylvia's didn't get the scholarship but I got one of Sylvia's deals which everyone basically was on at that school Sylvia was an incredible woman who just everyone owes so much to I loved going up to Sylvia's every day up to Marlborough and up to London got there so early every day mostly to see if Tom was there so we could have a cheeky little kiss in the corridor

18:42Giovanna Fletcher: Okay, so you started at Sylvia's. Yeah. And then how soon did you meet Tom? Were you in the same year?

18:50Emma Willis: In the same year. And for our first assembly, you basically sit in your year groups in alphabetical order. And your year group is your class, basically, because there was only between 20 and 22 people in each year anyway. So I was sat in alphabetical order and Tom was sat next to me. So Fletcher and Falcone.

19:08Giovanna Fletcher: So you met him on the first day? On the first day. Right. Did you recognise him from The Boy on a Telly with Sylvia?

19:14Emma Willis: No. Yes, you did! No, because I had Craig Stein behind me, who was on, like, remember the TV show The Biz? You would have been out partying by the way. Too old, babe. But there was a show called The Biz, and Craig Stein was behind me, who was on The Biz, and he was doing pirouettes. Then you had Christy Bruce, who was on The Demon Headmaster. He had all these kids. The Grange Hill lot were there. So you're kind of like, there's so much going on, and you're just like, wow, I've entered this amazing life, amazing club. Tom didn't cut it. Well, no, no, no, he did. He absolutely did because him and Jason Green were sat next to each other and Tom was like, what's your name?

19:52Emma Willis: And I was like, my name's Jovanna, but you can call me G. He was like, my name's Tom, but you can call me T.

19:56Giovanna Fletcher: And him and Jason just did this little giggle. I was like, OK.

19:59Emma Willis: But we did date. We dated very quickly for two days.

20:04Giovanna Fletcher: Oh. Yeah. And then what happened? He dumped me for his ex-girlfriend.

20:08Emma Willis: My name, Emma. How did you feel? Devastated.

20:13Giovanna Fletcher: It's really hard to kind of take you seriously, especially when I know I'm talking about a 13-year-old you. Yeah. About, you know, how you felt about someone that you went out with for two days. But bear in mind, you are now married to that man. Yeah. So maybe those feelings you might have had at the age of 13 were absolutely legit.

20:32Emma Willis: We spent two years after that going, I like you, no I don't like you, I like you, I don't like you. So in terms of like teenage angst and drama, if this was an episode of The Summer I Turned Pretty, we're right up there with the drama. Or Grange Hill. Yeah, exactly. We're right up there with the drama and everything teenage love should be. Dawson's Creek. Oh, all of them. I was convinced that I was his Joey. I was absolutely convinced. And yeah, so we had two years of I Like You, I Don't. And then we went out for year 11. And that was great. And then at the end of year 11, we were just in different places.

21:09Emma Willis: Like he was going off to Harrow. I was going back to Essex. There was no sixth form. So we broke up. Sad times.

21:16Giovanna Fletcher: Year 11. So you were 16. Yeah. And did you ever think that I will marry him and he will be the father of my children?

21:27Emma Willis: Well. Was it kind of, did you know?

21:31Giovanna Fletcher: We couldn't let each other go. Right. There was always something that drew you back.

21:35Emma Willis: There was always something. We'd go and watch the kids doing the Christmas carol service at Marlborough Station. And we'd always, you know, there'd always be a little bit of hand-holding. Hand-holding? Hand-holding. I don't know about that. It's not... There must be something hand-holding. It was just hand-holding. Yes. Hand-holding! Hand-holding! We were holding hands. And there'd always be like a cheeky little kiss before we left. Yeah. But yeah, then I was away. for a month without a phone at this. So I was on this sort of gap year type thing, but it wasn't, it was a month away, not a gap year, a gap month.

22:15Emma Willis: And all I could think about was Tom. And then when did you come back together? I started Rose Bruford, so I started my acting degree and I had been dating someone else for like 10 months before and I just decided on the drive over to James's house one Friday night that I was going to end it. And that hadn't entered my head at all until that drive. So I got there, I ended things, and then I spoke to Tom the next day. And he was like, come over! And I was like, no, no, I've got to go and get drunk with my sister. I cannot come over. And then ended up going to the band house because by then they were living in Whetstone.

22:59Emma Willis: Did you ever go to the band house? Not McFly Highs. Oh, yeah.

23:05Giovanna Fletcher: No, but Busted were in the same building.

23:08Emma Willis: So before that, they were in a house. They were in a house first.

23:11Giovanna Fletcher: Oh, no, I never went there. Right, so it was basically a house. I didn't really know you guys then.

23:15Emma Willis: No, we met in 2005.

23:17Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah.

23:19Emma Willis: Happy 22nd anniversary.

23:20Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah.

23:21Emma Willis: Oh, no, 21st anniversary. Fuck, this is our 21st year.

23:25Giovanna Fletcher: Are we 21? I knew it. I knew I was still 21.

23:29Emma Willis: Yeah, but I can remember meeting the rest of the McFly guys. And Dougie saying to me, you're all he talks about. And it just felt different that time getting back together. And then you knew that was the one. Yeah. That was the one for you. Yeah.

23:44Giovanna Fletcher: Oh, it is the most beautiful story, you and Tom.

23:48Emma Willis: But this is why I always say to you about your kids who are that age or older now. I know. Just never know who's going to come into their lives or who's going to be in their lives now.

23:55Giovanna Fletcher: Or who's in their life and maybe they're...

23:57Emma Willis: Who's going to stick around. Yeah, I know.

24:00Giovanna Fletcher: You're going to look in those eyes. When did you know you wanted to have children?

24:07Emma Willis: We were always sending a list of names to each other. We were always meeting people and kind of going, oh, what about this name? At what age? Would have been early 20s. Right. We're doing that. I was quite frustrated. By the time Tom proposed, we'd been together for eight or nine years.

24:28Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah.

24:28Emma Willis: I was very frustrated. I just felt like, look, I'm being the wife. I'm doing your washing. I'm doing this. Like there's, you know.

24:35Giovanna Fletcher: Make it legal.

24:37Emma Willis: Yeah. And also because, I don't know, I think when you get together younger, for us it was a case of we knew that one day we'd get married, one day we'd have kids and it felt like we were going to do it in the order that we thought we would, you know, we were told we were going to do when we were younger sort of thing. We were going to conform. So it felt like, look, until that bit's done, we can't do that bit.

25:01Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah. So can we just get a move on? But it's always that. But it must have also, because you'd been together for so long and you'd known each other for so long, right, it must just feel the norm and quite comfortable. So in another respect, we don't really need to do it because, as you say, we're living that life anyway. But those kind of milestones are quite nice to...

25:27Emma Willis: Well, so I used to, when I used to dawdle as a kid, it was of a woman in a wedding dress you know what I mean? like I knew that I wanted to get married and it did feel like this I don't know this kind of declaration of love and togetherness and I think maybe when you are with someone in a band that does carry something do you know what I mean? Yeah Yeah

25:51Giovanna Fletcher: Well it's quite a life to be a part of isn't it? Especially with like you know they're away or they're travelling and you're kind of and it's very easy to be dismissed as a girlfriend.

26:01Emma Willis: I'm not saying that you don't get dismissed as a wife, but it's very easy to be dismissed by the people that you're introduced to. So, yeah, for me, it did feel like an important thing. But I also knew that the more you bring it up, you know, it's not going to happen. Whereas when you start thinking about having a baby, that is a two-way conversation. Do you know what I mean?

26:22Giovanna Fletcher: Because it's a two-way thing. Yeah. But he was up for that. Yeah.

26:29Emma Willis: But when you're waiting for someone to ask you to marry them, I knew it would never be the other way around for us. I just... You are literally waiting for someone else to kick-start things.

26:41Giovanna Fletcher: He might have made you wait a while, but when he did it, my God, he did it in style, didn't he? He did. I mean, what a moment. Incredible.

26:53Emma Willis: The proposal or the wedding? Both. Yeah, he was... it's very romantic Tom I think kids have got in the way of his romance but of the romantic gestures that he does do you know what I mean? right yeah like there's been no singing choirs recently

27:09Giovanna Fletcher: no well life's busy it is

27:13Emma Willis: and also because it's constantly something else that you need to be thinking about someone's birthday something's this

27:18Giovanna Fletcher: yeah you know and looking after three boys yes

27:21Emma Willis: and two ducks thirteen chickens a dog a tortoise a bit of dragon

27:25Giovanna Fletcher: and you keep adding to them so you've only got yourself to blame Although you did try to palm some chickens off on me the other day. Do you want to take a couple of chickens home, Emma? No.

27:38Emma Willis: I'll have the eggs. We think it would be really good for you as a family.

27:41Giovanna Fletcher: Oh, thanks. Really?

27:43Emma Willis: Matt would love it. Yeah, I know he would.

27:45Giovanna Fletcher: And who would end up looking after them?

27:46Emma Willis: You.

27:47Giovanna Fletcher: Me. Exactly. So the conversation of babies was definitely something that you both knew as soon as you got married.

27:58Emma Willis: Yeah, and we decided to basically start not trying as soon as we were married. I'd been on the pill since I was 16, so I came off of it the year before. I had had no periods for a year and was obviously a bit worried about that. So I remember getting some tests done, got told by a doctor that had PCOS, literally handed a leaflet, just kind of like a printed off sheet from Google. So I think it's because we know now that there are things you can do for your body to kind of make it work in the best way that it can, even though you do have that PCOS diagnosis. So at the time, what did you do when you found that out?

28:38Emma Willis: I think I cried. Then she put me on. So once we were married, I got put on a horrible contraceptive pill. I remember you were pregnant, must have been with ACE at the time. and the way that that morning, that the contraceptive pill was making me feel was worse than you were when you were pregnant. I was like, I feel like I've got morning sickness. I feel like this nauseous all the time and I feel bloated and horrible. So you told me to go to your doctor and that changed everything, to be honest. I was lovely Craig.

29:10Giovanna Fletcher: Oh, wonderful man.

29:12Emma Willis: Wonderful man.

29:13Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah.

29:14Emma Willis: And just being taken off of that contraceptive pill and kind of someone going, well, that's not working for you, actually. You don't need to feel that way. And even then, it wasn't at that point that we were going to start trying, but just feeling like someone was actually listening to you was really important. And then when I did start trying, I can remember, in fact, I can remember having that PCOS diagnosis. Maybe it was after. I went really strict on lots of things I could and couldn't eat whilst trying to get pregnant. And I don't know whether that was, so I started taking metformin and I got pregnant really, really quickly and miscarried.

29:57Emma Willis: And I think after that, I just, and something about that pregnancy, I was just a bit like it's, I had worried because of that PCOS diagnosis. I had worried because I'd taken the pill for so long. Then to get pregnant actually relatively quickly made me instantly go, how? Yeah, and it's too good to be true. so when I miscarried I kind of felt like well told you so you know and although you've got that sort of heartache and stuff that it kind of yeah just a horrible time so then I started taking I felt really angry I felt angry with my body for so long and I can remember Matt sent me a book because he'd seen someone being interviewed on this morning about someone whose wife had had PCOS and uh and I and I read it and I remember the first time I read it I was just too angry to read it I had this feeling of you know why am I having to do this stuff and it was all about don't do this don't eat that don't eat that don't eat that I was like what am I gonna fucking eat if I can't eat all these things and uh so I was angry at the fat my body and the fact that I had to kind of do these things and then after a while I had to change my mindset and forgive my body which I think is also part of the grieving process right and kind of moving through it and at that point that is when I literally I started so to get pregnant with bars I literally I can't remember what it was now but I had this thing on I had on the fridge no caffeine no red meat no you know no gluten like different things that are back then what was going to help with PCOS and I started really getting into like T25 or something like that.

31:40Emma Willis: What's that? Sean T. Have you ever, never come across Sean T?

31:45Giovanna Fletcher: No.

31:45Emma Willis: It's like a T25, but also he did like Insanity. Remember when everyone was doing Insanity? Like these workouts?

31:55Giovanna Fletcher: No.

31:55Emma Willis: Oh, they were great. I'm sure Matt does. He's an American guy and he's so fun. But I got a bit obsessed with that. But actually, yeah, and then I got pregnant with Buzz and it was unbelievable. I almost didn't want to believe it, to be honest.

32:11Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah, I think that happens though, doesn't it? Especially when you've had a miscarriage and you kind of go, yeah, but my body didn't do it once, so surely it's not going to do it again. The kind of fear of your body, I suppose in your head, failing again is terrifying. Yeah.

32:33Emma Willis: I think there's that thing of you feel like you've failed in your first go at being a mum. You know what I mean? Your first role as a mum, well, you fucked that because you didn't keep that baby safe or whatever. And I know that we can all sort of rationally go, well, that's not what happened. But when you're going through it, you know, these thoughts come. And I felt like I'd failed Tom. mom uh about the baby uh and I can remember I have such a clear memory of when I was actually uh going so when I had so I'd I was at home and I'd started bleeding and I had to travel up to London to get a scan um so this was my first pregnancy not buzz and I can remember um Bob Marley and every little thing's gonna be all right coming on the radio and at first I used that as kind of like this pregnancy is going to be okay you know don't worry like this is it's all going to be okay and then after that I couldn't listen to that song anymore for a long time and actually in the last few years I'm a bit like no everything did turn out okay you know what I mean like Buzz has been my silver lining for forever because without that loss I wouldn't have had Buzz and you know he's a little dreamboat

33:47Giovanna Fletcher: he is isn't he he is he is he's gorgeous

33:51Emma Willis: yeah

33:53Giovanna Fletcher: you are always very open when talking about baby loss how does it feel talking about it now because it's hard isn't it it's a hard subject to kind of talk about to other people that you know have gone through it and it's a hard subject to talk about when you've been through it yourself but you're so and again I think that it's testament to what a wonderful person you are and how easy you are to talk to that even those hard subjects are actually relatively easy with you.

34:28Emma Willis: Yeah.

34:29Giovanna Fletcher: Does it feel that way for you when you're talking about it?

34:36Emma Willis: I think maybe I just sometimes like to get it out.

34:39Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah.

34:43But also knowing that miscarriage is something that happens to so many people,

34:49Emma Willis: baby loss. I think talking about baby loss, talking about TFMR and things like that on this podcast have always been really, really important. I think for people to feel like we don't shy away from those things.

34:59Giovanna Fletcher: They're big things that happen to women. And it happens to so many of us. Yeah, I think that's always been really, really important.

35:05Emma Willis: When I have a guest on who's talking about it, it does sort of take me back to place. And also, I'm in hindsight for that loss, right? because it's 12 years ago, 13 years ago, I have three amazing boys. I know how hard that was. I had another miscarriage last year, a chemical pregnancy. I call it a miscarriage, a chemical pregnancy, which was a surprise pregnancy. And I have felt that talking, I haven't talked about it publicly, but also my response to it was very, very different this time. and I wonder if it is because of the chats that we have. You know what I mean? Like, don't get me wrong, it was fucking hard and, you know, you kind of, you can't help but look ahead and kind of go, well, this is what this is going to be like and, oh, God, you know, all these things.

35:59Emma Willis: But, you know, I think when we talk about it, we give the words maybe or understanding to other people that haven't got the space to talk about it. Maybe they can't find the words, maybe they don't have people around them that have the capacity to take that on. Maybe they have people around them who go, oh, well, at least you can get pregnant. Oh, well, you've got three kids. Oh, well, you know, all that stuff, it takes it away and kind of goes, well, no, what is the thing that you have just gone through? And can we talk about what you've just gone through? Because that is still a relevant experience.

36:30Emma Willis: That is still a loss. Your body is going through something still. So I, yeah, I will never shy away from those big topics. It is in some ways easier to sit in that chair and listen to someone. But when they cry, I just go because I guess I see my own, either my own experiences sort of in front of me as well and kind of there in my head. I think all of us can kind of go, if that was me, you know, and you can instantly kind of go, you carry, you can see that weight that's on that person. But, you know, again, those things that happen that make you kind of go, well, this is going to work out, you know.

37:08Emma Willis: I'd been we'd literally had a podcast with someone who had got pregnant when they were 46. And I was like, it's fine. You had had Trixie when you were 40, you know. So I think, again, there were these things around me that just suddenly like, well, this is meant to happen. And this is what, you know, I had to change plans for this year and decided that I wouldn't go off on tour and was saying no to certain jobs. And actually what that loss did, what the pregnancy did in the first place, I felt a sense of relief, actually, that all that pressure was going to be taken off of me, that suddenly I wasn't going to be pulled in a million directions.

37:45Emma Willis: I wasn't going to have the pressure of steering so many ships, which is an odd way to look at a pregnancy and the arrival of a child. and then when that when the when the pregnancy ended I suddenly thought well I need to maybe rethink about how I do things in 2026 because I cannot be I need to be able to actually really enjoy the things I'm doing rather than constantly feeling like I'm getting through the things because they're all things I love doing yeah so let's not get through but actually enjoy life

38:19Giovanna Fletcher: and do you feel like you um have processed i think so like it did feel so different and i don't know

38:28Emma Willis: and it's a very individual thing right for me i have three incredible kids and um and four is a lot of kids and um and it's one of those things if if if the pregnancy had worked out then it would have been you know what a blessing what a blessing to have another baby like that's such a an incredible thing um however I am so comfortable with this chapter that we're in now um see it felt very different to be going through a loss that isn't surrounded by desperation and and you know that fear that it might never happen it has happened for me so I don't have to have that fear or that desperation. I'm not pining.

39:20Emma Willis: So, yeah, I think it's been a very different thing to sort of get my head around.

39:28Giovanna Fletcher: And you've done it really well, G.

39:30Emma Willis: Yeah.

39:31Giovanna Fletcher: I remember coming around to your house that day and just being like, what?

39:35Emma Willis: I know because you was that thing of, so this happened, but then this happened, you know what I mean? It's that thing I always feel like, and this is why I completely don't agree with the whole 12 weeks thing either like the people around you you need their support right either way either way so allow yourself to to to feel other people's joy but also to allow them to be there when it's sad yeah when there's a loss I think it's yeah and I know that for some people it's not that and I know that you know pregnancy after loss for me with buzz I was I didn't tell I didn't we didn't announce I was pregnant I was like 19 weeks I know some people do it even more like longer now um but yeah so it's you've got to do what makes you feel good there's no right way there isn't but buzz did arrive yes he did in quite the fashion

40:33Giovanna Fletcher: didn't he yes around the corner you know that we're literally around the corner yeah so you were we went on holiday together and you were secretly pregnant yes weren't you yes Matt was I was on a family holiday yes and Matt got a job so couldn't come and I was like gee do you want to come on holiday with me and my parents and my children he went yeah I'm secretly pregnant so we were together at Inception. Yeah. Almost, but not quite. Are you the father?

41:10Emma Willis: And then we were together almost at birth. Yes. Yes. Isn't that nuts? Isn't that crazy? Yeah. And so I was 37 weeks plus a few days and we were going to Danny Jones's birthday party around the corner from here in a restaurant.

41:28Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah.

41:28Emma Willis: And at that point we always had the hospital bag in the car and I can remember driving past hospital and Tom putting a hand on my belly, on the bump, and he said, if you're going to come tonight, let us have steak first. And we got here and I can remember seeing everyone. I was sat next to you at the table. I can remember talking to Georgia and there suddenly being this pop and feeling like an internal pop, just being like, well, that's weird. I'm going to go to the loo and check. I went downstairs everything was a little bit wet I remember going to Izzy I think

42:05Giovanna Fletcher: I think something might be going on

42:07Emma Willis: I'll just monitor it I was very relaxed I've been doing hip and birthing I was very relaxed about the whole thing I knew it was going to take a long time I remember going to the table sitting down next to you and you just going you alright? moving and we going yeah I think my waters have gone and Tom across the table going what? because I told you before telling him and then

42:30Giovanna Fletcher: and then we went back down to the loo

42:32Emma Willis: we went back down to the loo I don't know, did you give me a cardigan? someone gave me a cardigan to tie around my waist just in case, but I was wearing all black and still then we were a bit like, I think it is we went back upstairs we had steak and then things were happening, I was very aware that contractions had started but I quite liked being there, I was so relaxed So the hip-loat-birth thing really did work. I was so relaxed about the whole thing where I was very aware of, like, Harry and Dougie being like, do we need to get anything? Do we need towels? And I'd be like, no, no, no, I'm going to...

43:10Emma Willis: Everybody chill. Chill, guys. It's only a baby coming out my vagina. Don't worry about it. It's going to be fine.

43:15Giovanna Fletcher: I'm not even going to feel it. But I've had steak, so everything's OK.

43:22Emma Willis: It just got to the point where I was going to be like,

43:23Giovanna Fletcher: I think we might have to go. I think we might have skipped dessert. You did. I mean, considering if that had been my first, thinking about how I was with my first, I'd have been like, oh, yeah, come on, time to go. I would not have sat down. I mean, I might have done, but you were very, very relaxed. I remember you talking to me about hypnobirthing. And I suppose because I'd had, you know, a pretty disastrous first birth, I was a bit like, oh, bless her.

43:55Emma Willis: You said to me.

43:57Giovanna Fletcher: It's a great idea, but be prepared. Be prepared for anything to happen.

44:01Emma Willis: I can remember being in a taxi with you and you saying something along the lines of, just remember, if you don't have an epidural, you don't get a medal. You don't get a medal for these things. The baby is the prize, so just do what you need to do. Which I think was very good. Be prepared to pivot. Yes. Have a plan, but be adaptive. Don't laminate it. Yes.

44:24Giovanna Fletcher: don't laminate, although you probably should because it could go very nicely. Yes. But you did hypnobirth the shit out of that baby,

44:33Emma Willis: didn't you?

44:34Giovanna Fletcher: You did with all three. Yeah. And I honestly, like, I have the utmost of respect for you. I think I've even got pictures of you hypnobirthing in a pool that Tom sent whilst you were in labour. Now, if Matt had started taking pictures of me during birth, I might have I'd have kicked him out.

44:59Emma Willis: I didn't mind and to be honest, third time round I was very much like, take photos you know, but that first time I didn't mind that. The thing I minded was Tom trying to give me jelly babies. I don't need a jelly baby. I just need to be in my zone and I'm happy. In the zone and get this baby out of my vagina. Yeah. But I can remember us going to the hospital on the way, because we phoned the hospital on the way back from the mill and they said, just come in, see what's going on. And she examined me and she was like... This was Buzz. Buzz, yeah. And she was like, your cervix is still closed. So either it was just sort of you're behind waters or whatever or you've wet yourself.

45:37Emma Willis: I was like, well, that's great.

45:39Giovanna Fletcher: I was especially like, I've just been out for dinner, my hair's nice. This would be perfect. Take as many pictures as you want.

45:45Emma Willis: So I went home, bounced around the ball. contractions were constant like coming like they were coming thicker like harder and thicker I don't know

45:55Giovanna Fletcher: thicker and faster thicker and faster

45:57Emma Willis: and then Craig phoned me in the morning and he was like he went to hospital last night and I was like uh huh he's like I'm going to France tonight I'd really like to see before I go I was like great so we went in saw Craig and contractions still happening and he examined me and he was like have you been having contractions I went yeah I'm having one right now you're six centimeters so I was like so he said I think you should go to the hospital I said great can I have breakfast before I go so he went and said is it Volandri yeah yeah they used to be opposite so he went in there had some porridge and then waddled in and yeah I mean I would say that was quite a magical experience giving birth

46:42Giovanna Fletcher: just because I felt like I had taken every single drug known to man. Right. And you were fully in control of it because you hadn't taken any.

46:50Emma Willis: Yeah. Yeah, I felt like I completely, you know, well, there was a point where I had a little episiotomy, which in hindsight, maybe I didn't need or, you know, but we'll never know. And he's here and safe. So who knows? But I can remember getting stitched up and saying that was the most amazing experience ever. So straight away, that was incredible. and I can remember when I was, I had been stitched up or was I still being stitched up? But I can remember hearing my mum and dad and Bob and Debbie in the hallway of the delivery floor. I thought, how the hell have they got up here?

47:30Giovanna Fletcher: So they managed to find their way in and meet him. And because you so wanted to have a baby and you pretty much breezed childbirth, in the grand scheme of what childbirth could be. Right. How was the reality of having a baby? It's hard work, isn't it? Was it everything you had dreamed it would be? How did it compare to the dream, the reality?

47:58Emma Willis: It's just so raw and messy and there's no sleep. And then feeding-wise, I can remember constantly using this nipple shield because my nipples hurt so much and they were working. Um, but Buzz would literally, he would need, I'd feed him. The feeding, the burping, the getting back to sleep took an hour and a half, which meant that he was then asleep for an hour and a half before he woke up again to feed again. And just that cycle just felt so... Relentless. Yeah, constant. I can remember an aunt coming over, um, and, uh, telling me off for eating sun-dried tomatoes. And that is the thing that sent me over the edge.

48:42Emma Willis: you can't eat those if you're feeding. And I can remember Mary and Georgia being there. I don't know. I don't know. But I can remember Mary and Georgia being there and me being like, I don't know. I eat the sunshine tomato. But that was all Cods one up. And then a week in, he got an infection in his nail, which meant... Oh, I remember that. Yeah, it was really... So a week in, I took him to hospital, to paediatric A &E, and he had his finger was infected and sort of the infection was going down the finger just like a literally little nail bed infection and he had conjunctivitis. So he looked quite astray.

49:22Emma Willis: And at the same time, I could not walk. Like my stitches, remember, you know, sometimes they catch and things like that. It's so uncomfortable. Anyway, I went to the hospital and they sent us home with Buzz with the needle still in his hand and we'll just come back at seven o 'clock this morning and we'll top that up.

49:39Giovanna Fletcher: I was just like, oh, I don't feel happy about that.

49:42Emma Willis: So I ended up going back to where I had Buzz. And while he was being looked after, I ended up having a doctor look at me and a stitch had come loose. So I had my own infection as well, which was just miserable. I literally couldn't sit. I couldn't stand. I couldn't lay down. But I think I was just trying to do everything and be, you know, when people come over, the thing you want. I wanted nothing more than for people to leave my home and go, gosh, she's a good mum. Isn't she great? Gosh, she has it all together. Do you see her? Do these fresh cakes? I don't know, fresh cakes. You know, I just, I wanted to be bloody Mary Poppins, you know.

50:25Giovanna Fletcher: Well, because that is what we're told, right? That's kind of the, throughout the history of time, Like apparently this is being a good mum is having it all together and doing all these things and juggling all these balls and keeping them all up in the air. And we can do that. But also we can't do that. And all you want is, you know, you want you want people to think you're a good mum because you are a good mum. But actually, sometimes you just need to be looked after as well. and it's really hard to say that out loud and to ask for it sometimes because otherwise you feel like a failure to yourself.

51:07Emma Willis: Yeah.

51:08Giovanna Fletcher: It's really weird, isn't it?

51:09Emma Willis: Because all you need, I think what you need is for other people just to do the things, first of all, not ask. If anyone asks me what can I do, I'm always going to be like, oh, don't worry, I've got it. I'm never going to suggest something. If someone just does something amazing. Yeah, just to take that pressure off. But has that changed?

51:28Giovanna Fletcher: now that you're three children in i feel like i've changed with that i'm the same i'm like what you know whether it's to do with children or people visiting or if you're just having people over right new year's eve for example yeah is there anything i do no no it's fine it's fine now i'm like yeah bring whatever you want to drink yeah or even even if it's that simple like i'm not failing as a human because i'm saying bring something along you know yeah i just thought

51:56Emma Willis: It's weird, isn't it? It's self-pressure. Yeah. For really no reason. I came back from holiday once and mum had been staying over to look after the chickens. So mum was there when we arrived back. I put the first load of washing on. And then before I knew it, mum had done the rest of the washing. And I just thought, oh.

52:15Giovanna Fletcher: It's great, isn't it? Why don't I lean into this?

52:18Emma Willis: This is amazing. I can just, you know, get on with other things that need to be done, like clean out the chickens, what's going on in the greenhouse? so I don't need to be doing the washing.

52:27Giovanna Fletcher: And you have three boys.

52:30Emma Willis: I mean, you have three kids,

52:31Giovanna Fletcher: doesn't matter whether you've got boys or girls.

52:33Emma Willis: Who are very active and very wild. And, you know, they love her. They're either all together creating chaos or creating chaos individually and the yelp because someone's been in their room.

52:44Giovanna Fletcher: Do you feel like there was always, always chaos or do you feel like once there was two of them, they created chaos with each other? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, was Buzz quite... Oh, Buzz was not chilled. He was the showman. He has always been on those little tippy toes. Yeah.

53:06Emma Willis: You know, he's always played, like, he's always wanted to play the drums, to play the guitar, to sing, so he's always been really, really active.

53:13Giovanna Fletcher: Well, that's because he came out of your vagina, went into a papoose and went on tour. Very true. Essentially, I remember just seeing him as a baby at gigs with these big ear defenders on. It's no surprise that he is just so bloody talented because that's all he's ever absorbed and been around is just creativity. That's very true.

53:42Emma Willis: But I think whenever you add children into the mix, it changes the dynamics. People change their order or they're no longer the youngest. There's more responsibility because now the eldest of two so I think that's always shifted I can remember Buzz and Buddy being so excited about meeting Max the fact that Buddy used to constantly hold Max

54:05Giovanna Fletcher: I know they fight now but there are always times

54:07Emma Willis: when you've only got two of them where you see the dynamics between two is just so different what was the dynamic like between the two of them between Buzz and Buddy Buzz used to make Buddy laugh all the time yeah very cute, it's so hard isn't it because they were so diddy even when Max came along I had three under five Buzz was four and a half I think when Max came along so yeah they're all still so diddy you know in retrospect now when I look back I'm like that was hard you know that was hard yeah and when you kind of you go somewhere you don't know where any of them are going whereas now we can kind of go i will be here and they can go off around someone's house and you know they know where to come back whereas you feel like in those early days you're constantly changed like chasing someone um but yeah i i has it always been chaotic I would say, I would still say the biggest jump, the biggest life switch, life change was zero to one.

55:24Emma Willis: Because that's a whole, that's a whole new life.

55:27Giovanna Fletcher: I agree with you there.

55:28Emma Willis: Whereas you already live in that life when the second or third one come along. I had my most prolific writing year when Buddy was born. So I had two babies or two kids and I finished writing three books, which is just bonkers.

55:45Giovanna Fletcher: How, G?

55:46Emma Willis: I didn't sleep.

55:48Giovanna Fletcher: And still now, I often think this, right? You are possibly, you and Tom are quite possibly the busiest people I know.

55:58Emma Willis: Yeah. But without shadow of a doubt, you are always with your kids as well. So I'm like, when do they sleep? I went through a phase. I don't understand. Well, I went through a phase where I would put the kids to bed at seven. then I would carry on writing until one and then I'd go to sleep and then I'd be up again with the kids at like half five and that was my that was my routine every single day and I can remember going on holiday and us all being in the same room so we had to sleep when the baby slept and that fucked me up completely I came back and I was like where where's my eight nine hours of sleep gone I can't I can't do this anymore and that totally changed everything just suddenly realizing that oh no you do need to sleep but what I find bizarre now is that looking back at previous work kind of makes me go god how did I do that how how did I create this you know how like and I don't know whether it's because I was so tired just working on this different frequency I don't know um but but what I've realized recently is there is nothing more stifling than your previous creativity.

57:13Why?

57:14Emma Willis: Because you're seeing the whole thing, right? You're not looking at each page as you write. You're looking at this finished product, this finished book. You know, you don't see all the work that went into it. You can read it and go, whoa, that bit was good, wasn't it? And then it's overwhelming. Yeah, yeah.

57:31Giovanna Fletcher: To try and start again.

57:32Emma Willis: Yeah. I mean, it's all good. It's all happening. What was Buddy's birth like? You hypnobirthed again. Hypnobirthed again. Gave myself a little reminder on hypnobirthing. And I can remember... I can remember we had been watching the BAFTAs and I put something in the dishwasher and I felt something and instantly went, oh. So I stayed downstairs and I instantly was like, watch a bit of comedy so Tom went upstairs I went into my office watched a bit of comedy and about an hour later because I always said by that point we had buzz so we needed to sort out what was happening with buzz so I went into Tom about an hour later and was like I'm having contractions and they're quite speedy because he was quick wasn't he?

58:24Emma Willis: really quick so we drove Buddy to Bob and Debbie's so the bathroom must have finished at 10 so I must have gone up to Tom at 11 we didn't get into the hospital until one um quarter past one and i can remember i can remember even the car on the way there like almost not being able to sit on the seat like i felt like i can't even there was a head no but just being like that pressure of kind of like and then getting there they wanted to monitor me so i had all these things on me and just feeling like something's happening and she was like you're six centimeters like it's going to be a while i was okay uh so they finally took that stuff off me I went to the toilet and I just had this weirdest sensation.

59:07Emma Willis: I was in the toilet picking out my grey hairs and I had this weirdest sensation where something just went, like this pressure went, ran down my tummy. Like he slid. Yeah, like it's so weird. And I thought, well, that's bizarre. My body did something. I did not do anything. My body did something. And I was like, well, that's weird. And I got into the pool and I said, I just had, I said to the midwife, I just had this really weird sensation. She was like, ah, not bothered by it at all. Got in the pool. And not long after that, I was like, I feel like something's happening. I feel like, I feel like he's coming.

59:45Emma Willis: She was like, no, no. And like, kid you not, I had five more of these whooshy tummy taking over sensations. And I felt, I wrote it down somewhere, but literally I could feel something in every single one. And then he was out. and all I could do in that time was hold on to the side of the bath. I didn't feel my, I had a numb finger at the end of this because I held on, one hand was over the other and I was holding on so tight. All I could do was hold on to the side of the bath and let my body do it. It was the most animalistic experience of my life. Like my body expels Buddy. I had nothing to do with his birth.

1:00:22Emma Willis: More so than Buzz and Max, would you say? It expelled him. Like literally, he flew, he flew out, do you not remember? He had bloodshot eyes. For the first month. No. He came out so quickly, his eyes were bloodshot for a month. Like a little villain in a superhero film.

1:00:39Giovanna Fletcher: Maybe that's why he's such a firecracker now. Do you know what I mean? He's just like... He came in the world. What am I going to do? I'm going to build a fire. I'm going to go skating. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do... Do you know what I mean? He's such a doer.

1:00:50Emma Willis: He's a doer.

1:00:51Giovanna Fletcher: He really is. Maybe his birth is something to do with it. Yeah. He was like, you can forget about lining this pool for a bit, Mother. I'm coming out right now.

1:01:02Emma Willis: It was such like a whoa. And I think it was an hour from us getting to the hospital to him actually being, from him being delivered.

1:01:11Giovanna Fletcher: And was Max just as quick?

1:01:13Emma Willis: No. Third, I'd ended up, so I had something, they didn't like something that was going on with my urine and I had some itchy hands. So they were like, we might induce you at 39 weeks. So I was like, okay. so at 38 weeks we ended up was it 38 weeks or was it closer I don't know um we ended up going for a sweep and that night you know we just be like I feel like this is gonna work I just have a feeling so I had a sweep it didn't hurt it's so funny like for me I was just I don't know maybe the hypnobirthing helped me breathe through it but I didn't I've never felt anything and it's just not nice but it's not you know oh yeah it was fine and then so I went home was tidying up because in my head I was like it is all happening tonight and then literally the room was tidy Thomas stood at the bottom of the stairs went right Buzz and Buddy time to go upstairs and I was sat on the floor of the sofa next to Buddy and he stood up on the on the sofa and jumped Tom was moving around and one foot just slipped off the sofa and he went headfirst into the coffee table you know when you scoop them up so quickly but you've already seen the blood trickle and trickle so I scooped him up I was just like, fuck.

1:02:26Giovanna Fletcher: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

1:02:27Emma Willis: So literally, we just put him straight in a car, drove around to hospital. Thankfully, we had like a walk-in centre like five minutes from our house then. Took him in and he had literally this massive gash in the top of his head. But it was, and I literally sat there with my sounds, just blood everywhere. My contraction started. And I don't know whether it was, because obviously birth is very bloody as well. You know, it's all that all mixed in. I don't know whether it was that, but suddenly everything was just like, and we're going, you know. So they were talking to us about what the plan would be for the next day, where he'd have to go to get it.

1:03:10Emma Willis: They put butterfly stitches, but would he need stitches? Blah, blah, blah. But they didn't keep him in. No, so we went home and thankfully Bob and Debbie, Tom's mum and dad were already with us because they came to collect birth because we all just had to go to the hospital. So when we got home, they left. I got into bed with Buddy and then I was very much like, this is definitely happening. I can remember Bob and Debbie coming back to stay with the kids and them just trying to talk to me normally.

1:03:38Giovanna Fletcher: I know you had hypnobirth, but how do you stay calm, right, when your son's just cracked his head open, you've had a sweep, you know that you're in labour and you know that your last birth was very quick and that the child had expelled himself out of your body. I'd have been in high-stress panic mode.

1:04:01Emma Willis: Yeah. No, I can remember putting washing on because I can remember being in the utility room and Bob and Debbie tried to ask me questions about something that wasn't really that important and me just being like, let's breathe through this contraction and then I can answer.

1:04:20Emma Willis: but I think it's once it's like it's like I don't know I I want everyone around me to feel calm yeah so maybe like you give what you want to receive

1:04:30Giovanna Fletcher: yeah

1:04:30Emma Willis: yeah and I am a big believer in that and yeah so I was I think I was relieved when we were in the car on the way to the hospital but that labour was very long actually well not very long it was my longest so I would have got there I don't know about midnight and then he didn't come until three o 'clock the following afternoon that's the one I've got a picture of uh-huh yeah but again I think that was because I had a son at home who had a massive gash on his head who was waiting to go to this other hospital to see which Bob and Debbie then had to do and I suddenly had this as soon as we got the message to say that he was okay and it was all fine and we sent a photo of him riding around on his bike inside with sort of trike with like all every single pair of pants that he owns on his head and I was like he's absolutely fine and I suddenly remember the next one can arrive yeah but I had this realization as well at the same time that I wasn't breathing I was breathing so shallowly shallowly shallow shallow doesn't need the lee I was breathing so shallow that no no breath and no oxygen was getting down to my tummy you know and I know that I have to send my breath down there because everything needs the oxygen to keep doing its thing.

1:05:45Emma Willis: So, yeah, so I decided, I just went, oh, gosh, you've got to breathe. And that made things a lot easier. And out you popped.

1:05:55Giovanna Fletcher: Had three always been your magic number, do you think?

1:05:57Emma Willis: For me, yeah. I think I'm one of three. So in my head, I was always, that's where I, that was my happy place, I think.

1:06:05Giovanna Fletcher: That was my sort of aim. Three boys? I mean, it doesn't matter, does it? It really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all.

1:06:12Emma Willis: And I can remember having Sarah Turner on the podcast early on. It must have been first series. And she had had three boys. And she said about her, so I had only had two at this point. And she said that when they got pregnant with a third or thought about getting pregnant with a third, she just said to her husband, we have to prepare ourselves that the likelihood of us having another boy is really high. So once I heard that, I was like, yeah, well, it is. You're having another child to have another child, not to have a girl. And there was also a sense within me of being a bit scared of having a girl.

1:06:47Giovanna Fletcher: Really?

1:06:48Emma Willis: Yeah. Not in the sense of I knew boys, but I knew boys. You know what I mean? I kind of, I understood it again. Every child's different. Energy is different. But I knew these two and I'd got to where I was with these two. So, yeah, I was just a bit scared of a girl coming in that, meaning that it would all be completely and utterly different.

1:07:14Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah. I think you meet your match when you have a girl. Yeah, which maybe I wasn't ready for. I've just met mine.

1:07:25Giovanna Fletcher: Literally. On Saturday night, I went to the 50th and left her in charge of babysitting.

1:07:32Emma Willis: I love that she could do this now.

1:07:33Giovanna Fletcher: And I went with my parents and my sisters and had a few drinks. And I got home. We didn't have a key.

1:07:41Emma Willis: Yeah.

1:07:41Giovanna Fletcher: We got home at 2am. And I met myself at the door. The door opened and the look on her face.

1:07:50Emma Willis: Oh, my God. I've been waiting to go to bed. I was like, sorry.

1:07:58Giovanna Fletcher: Apologising to my 16-year-old. So, yeah, I do. Whereas I think had it been ace, he'd have been like, hi, mummy, it's okay. You've given your little snuggle, led you to bed. Isabel was hugely disappointed, which is how I'd been with her a few weeks before. Good.

1:08:19Giovanna Fletcher: What do you feel has been like your most challenging time with parenthood? You know, that is just kind of...

1:08:27Emma Willis: I think school life and expectation has been really hard. I was always someone that loved school. Loved school. Give me all the homework. I'd do all the lines, whatever you need. I'd practice my handwriting, of course. That's the people pleaser in you. Yeah, totally. That was instant feedback of well done, you're good. You know what I mean? I loved that. Like I said, I used to bounce out of school in the morning to go to Sylvie's every day, like wherever. I loved it. And I think COVID had such a massive part of this as well. But I think suddenly going into that school environment and feeling like, oh, my God, I said mistress.

1:09:06Emma Willis: Do you know what I mean? Suddenly realising that whatever you carried as a kid towards school carries with you as a parent there. And I think actually third time round, I'm feeling it less. I'm a bit more relaxed. No. Oh, I didn't realise there was a two day policy on my homework. I'm so sorry. Who likes doing it at the weekends?

1:09:26Giovanna Fletcher: It'll be in on Monday. You were only just doing that on the third child.

1:09:31Emma Willis: Yeah. That was child one.

1:09:34Giovanna Fletcher: Oh, really? Yeah, I'm just a bit rubbish. Yeah. I just forget everything. I just found it... I'm the one that they're always reminding. Oh, really? That's why I love a WhatsApp group. Because the people, parents on those WhatsApp groups, they have saved me time and time again. Yeah.

1:09:53Emma Willis: They are a bit shocking, actually, with the year three WhatsApp group. I'm always going, I'm so sorry, I didn't see this. So I am a bit naughty on that one. But I think it's maybe because I panicked so much before. I think that has been a big surprise. But then also I think having had a negative experience at school, my worry, I thought going into that would be friendships. But then there's this whole other layer of school life, you know. and we've been through a lot with it. Everyone's happy now.

1:10:29Giovanna Fletcher: That's all great. But realising what works for one doesn't work for all. No. And that kids are going to school and a lot of time everyone's, you know, that environment is, well, we'll teach them all in the same way and they'll all learn the same thing.

1:10:47Emma Willis: But actually, all of our brains are different.

1:10:50Giovanna Fletcher: We all consume and we all learn and we all absorb in a totally different way.

1:10:56Emma Willis: And how brilliant is that?

1:10:58Giovanna Fletcher: It's amazing.

1:10:59Emma Willis: I think when you're going through anything within the school system that your child has been othered, it's really difficult. But actually as parents, and I feel like anyone within that provision has to kind of look at that child's individuality and what every child is individual, but celebrate how that child learns. And I think as parents especially, I think when you're in that position, it can feel really difficult and all you want to do is people please that headmistress or whatever. And it's really hard to advocate for your child. So I think getting rid of all the noise and all that people pleasing is important.

1:11:41Giovanna Fletcher: And especially, as you say, for you, because you are the one that always, you don't want to kick up a stink. You don't want to be the one shouting,

1:11:49Emma Willis: going, yeah, but what about my child?

1:11:51Giovanna Fletcher: What about, because you're like, oh, well, you know, everyone's here trying to, with the same goal in mind, everyone's trying to help each other, and they're all just struggling through. But actually, when it is your kid and you see that there is something that isn't working and all you want is for him to be able to progress like everybody else, then you do.

1:12:14Emma Willis: And to know that other people see him as not a problem.

1:12:18Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah.

1:12:19Emma Willis: I mean, I think that is such a big thing. Yeah, it's been quite a tough journey. And probably one that I don't speak about that much because I do feel like it's his experience and his thing. But I know that there are so many families that are going through real tough times when it comes to getting their kids into school. And it is really hard. it's really hard and actually I wonder what the impacts on relationships will be yeah you know if we're told just get them in just get them in at what cost yeah I've had to shout him this morning to get what is that good you know if you're chasing your kid around the house to get him to do his book like read his book or put his shoes on or you know getting him in the car it's like what at what cost because you're you're telling them that what they are telling you that they need is invalid and actually how important is it for us as adults to kind of go i'm not happy in this situation i'm not you know or to just lean into how we're feeling rather than us all just kind of going this is what i do every day you know i don't have to question the fact that i'm not happy doing this makes me feel sick that i constantly feel like i'm my nervous system is being attacked um yeah hopefully there's some life lessons in there and that that you know that nervous system regulation is huge.

1:13:44Giovanna Fletcher: Yeah. Huge. And especially for children who still don't kind of get, know or understand feelings and they're going to present in so many different ways, as you say, because everybody's different. Look, there are amazing teams out there,

1:14:04Emma Willis: organisations that help parents in this situation, but it is literally a postcode lottery. Who do you, you know, we're amazing in Hertfordshire. They've got, you know, amazing spaces. But it's about your local council also taking those things seriously as well. I know you mentioned the word chaos a little bit.

1:14:26Giovanna Fletcher: Yes, it is chaos.

1:14:28Emma Willis: Do you, have you not ever been? I know you've never been to my house and it's been chaos. You've never seen the chaos, have you, Emma?

1:14:34Giovanna Fletcher: I may have experienced the chaos a few times. What? I thought it was so well. What I will say is it's beautiful chaos.

1:14:48Emma Willis: It might not feel it for you.

1:14:50Giovanna Fletcher: And, you know, kids are testing. Yeah. You know, we can all go, oh, they're amazing. But sometimes they're little shits, aren't they? But we still love them. Absolutely. But on the whole, your boys are beautiful chaos. Oh, they are. And, you know, sometimes I've been scared. but most of the time, I just look at them and go, wow, what fun. Scared of the chaos.

1:15:22Giovanna Fletcher: Oh, my God. Look, she's amazing. Look at that woman. Get off of him. Stop it.

1:15:33Giovanna Fletcher: But, yeah, they're amazing, G. They really are. and the older they get the more beautiful it gets as well

1:15:39Emma Willis: it is a different part of motherhood now and it feels so lovely you know there are times when we sit down and play chess I cannot believe when we sit down and play chess and we sit down and do bloody Dungeons and Dragons together or anything like that I just there's more togetherness now whereas I feel like those moments used to be fleeting before you know you used to have like 30 seconds of it and be like oh my god this is amazing

1:16:03Giovanna Fletcher: let's have more that comes with having three under five doesn't it you know that's like that's wild also they've all got things that they love now

1:16:12Emma Willis: you know they all love like going off and scooting or being in a little band together like they've got different ways of communicating together so it's not and they do their own thing and they do things together

1:16:21Giovanna Fletcher: yeah and they're getting older and they're understanding emotions and they're you know yeah that's what I mean it's amazing like it's amazing from watching them be like these little feral creative amazing things to being like oh my god look at Buzz doing all the things he's doing and look at Buddy like flourishing and being amazing and then Max is just I mean that one he is cheeky he is a long blonde hair beauty he's I just don't he's such a flirt as well he's such a flirt Max

1:17:01Emma Willis: he totally he can absolutely get whatever it is that he wants. He's got a great sense of humour and he takes things. If you say something to him, he will take it completely literally, but only with humour.

1:17:11Giovanna Fletcher: Do you know what I mean? It's not like he's taking it literally and not understanding what you mean. Yeah. He's just really kind of going, okay. He also plays hard to get because I saw him at school the other morning with Tom and he hid behind Tom.

1:17:20Emma Willis: Oh, wow.

1:17:21Giovanna Fletcher: He was like peeking around. I was like, okay, whatever. But then when I had a sleeper of yours, he was literally, he wouldn't get off my lap. I'm like, you can't be playing that game.

1:17:31Emma Willis: Do you know what?

1:17:32Giovanna Fletcher: But after 21 years of friendship, one thing, I absolutely love the fact that our kids love each other. Oh, my God. Me too. I love it.

1:17:42Emma Willis: It's just pure. I love it.

1:17:44Giovanna Fletcher: They adore each other. You also have a babysitter, you know, any time now that she's that age. Yeah.

1:17:50Emma Willis: Yeah.

1:17:51Giovanna Fletcher: If you could write a letter on motherhood to anyone, who would it be and why?

1:17:57Emma Willis: I would write a letter to every mum at any point in their journey and just say this is hard this is such a bumpy road and you're going to feel all the feels on this journey we all have and sometimes we need to look at things in the moment and kind of go this is difficult but also So it can be really healing to look back and allow yourself to know that that was difficult. Because sometimes in the moment we can't, we're just sort of, you know, flapping our way through. And I think sometimes just the knowledge that what you're doing is hard is enough to kind of get you through. Like it's not meant to be easy.

1:18:37Emma Willis: The acceptance of difficulty. Yeah, exactly that. Yeah, just kind of go, yes, this is hard. And don't feel like you have to do that hardship on your own. there are so many other people going through similar things so lean on those people don't feel like you have to be that super hero mom you are wonderful as you are so speak your truth know that there's someone that's going to be just like you out there who will be loving what you're what

1:19:04Giovanna Fletcher: you're writing or saying i don't know if you know this but um at the end of the podcast they always finish by asking you to complete these three sentences. Okay. Okay. So the first one is being a mum means... Oh, I feel like I'm surprised. Oh, gosh. I didn't expect that one. I didn't expect that one. I'm so off guard.

1:19:26Emma Willis: Being a mum means being a safe place for your child, advocating for them, and giving out love like it's going out of fashion. Perfect. Since having children, I? Since having children, I have slept a lot less, been more stressed, but also been fulfilled in ways that I never knew that I would be. It's like you've done this before. Never thought I'd been answering them before, though. I'm happy when? I'm happy when I'm in the greenhouse and everyone is interested in what I'm doing and maybe coming along and trying out different foods, whether that's grabbing a tomato or a carrot, and everyone is just enjoying being outside and together.

1:20:19Emma Willis: No needs of other people, no pressure to be anything other than just us. To be honest, we could be anywhere, just us, and chilled without any external noise.

1:20:29Giovanna Fletcher: Thank you for being you, G. Thank you for all you do. I love you very much. I love you. Thank you for doing this. Let's eat cake.

1:20:37Emma Willis: Yay! I also feel like I've spoken so much that people are going to be like, for God's sake, she loves the sound of her own voice.