Father’s Day Special: The Reality of Surrogacy as a Same-Sex Couple

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1:49Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum. It's a Father's Day episode. And so to celebrate Father's Day, we are giving you not one, but two dads. Jamie Corbyn, Adam Frisbee. Adam created in the style, this massive movement of fashion. But this is a whole new area of his life. So this episode is very much looking at their journey into becoming parents via surrogacy and the realities of that when it comes to the UK law. I actually think this might be our fourth or fifth episode on surrogacy. And every time there's always a little bits of information. I'm like, oh, I didn't know that.

2:29Just two brilliant, brilliant humans who talk about their childhoods and their parental figures and how that has impacted them. Jamie said to us upstairs, actually, before we came to record, that his mum said to him, just don't slag me off. I can confirm that he absolutely did not slag you off and that we have a lot of love for you in this studio. So here is the episode of Happy Mum with two dads.

2:57How are you? Are you well rested? Yes, we are. Is Levin sleeping? She's doing quite well. She wakes up, I'd say, once in the night, which I think is quite good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's five months. That's amazing. You hear different stories. Some people are like, oh, my baby slept through from four months. And other people say they wake up every two hours. So I feel like we're quite, we feel fortunate because we're getting sick. Yeah. I think for me, I'm not like a massive sleeper anyway. Are you? No, I don't sleep at all. He's all right on like five hours. Yeah, so if I'm like four or five hours for me is absolutely fine.

3:27And she's given us that pretty much since the day she was born. So what time is she waking up consistently at the same time? No, not really. Well, I say roughly about, so what we tend to do is we feed her like, say, eight. And we'll keep her downstairs with us, right or wrong. We kind of do, don't we, in a docker-tocker or whatever. And then at 11, we'll wake her up for a feed. Feed her at 11, we'll go to bed. And then she'll normally wake up, I would say, four-ish. this morning she woke up at 5.45 and I was like yes and then is she up for the day no she falls straight back to sleep you've got a sleeper I know we are looking everybody that has met her said I can't believe how chilled she is I saw her this morning it was amazing really content and chill which we're really happy about a lot of people said to us it is a reflection of you as a parent and whether or not that's true I don't know but we'll take it and I think we have been quite chilled with her and yeah, she really is.

4:19So we're really happy. She doesn't really cry about anything really. So yeah, she's been great, hasn't she? Jamie, you said your own mum was quite chilled. Yeah, my mum was quite chilled when we were growing up, I think. So she was just very laid back in terms of, I wouldn't say laid back parenting. We were parented but she was laid back in terms of what we wanted to do with our lives, what we wanted to do with our day. she'd always be like yeah it's fine as long as you're happy you can do that it's not a problem but I think she was so my dad died when I was six and I think from that moment on she had this like constant like guilt of I just have to give them everything that they want um so she sacrificed a lot of her like her own life to make sure that we had that basically like she got herself into loads of debt because anything we asked for she would just buy it for us and it was all it was as children you don't really see it but as an adult you think oh my god I can't believe you did that how stupid but we have yeah we you know we had really really me and my sister we had really good upbringings yeah did you two talk about becoming parents early on yeah a lot well I wouldn't say early on but we did from kind of maybe three or four years in oh really well what about even before you were together is it was it even something that you thought was a possibility something you wanted yeah so I I didn't ever think it was a possibility really I knew that As kind of our relationship blossomed, everything was kind of more focused towards the adoption side of things.

5:42But when I came out to my mum when I was 21, I cried to her. And she was like, why are you crying? And I was like, because I've just always wanted to be a dad. I've always wanted to be. And she knew that as well. And she actually said to me, well, you never know one day. What she said to me, well, you know, science. You never know. And I was like, well, yeah, I just don't think it's a possibility, really. And I think when I was 21, there was a huge stigma around just gay people in general, really. I mean, the world has moved on a lot. I think we're probably going a little bit backwards at the minute.

6:08But when I did come out, I was from quite a small town. I was kind of like the only gay in the village. Was that a really hard part then of accepting your sexuality back then as well? Like you said with your mum, almost like you're almost by accepting kind of that this is who I am, almost shutting a door. And we know that that's not true now in any way, but almost kind of going, well, that's that dream, shut. I wrote it off completely. I just thought if I and it was the reason I came out when I was 21 is because I'd question my sexuality for years before that in the hope that maybe one day my feelings would change.

6:43Right. Which is quite sad, really. But I was still under the impression maybe that, you know, who knows, one day I might wake up and just be straight. I don't know. It was never going to happen. And I knew that deep down. But because I wanted a family and I wanted to have children and, you know, the stereotype back then was male, female, child. Yeah. It just never felt possible, really. Yeah. I felt the same. Like I remember very distinctly that being something that was quite dark for me really at the time because I was quite young when I realised I was gay. And I remember a passing comment of someone sort of being like, well, at least you ain't got to worry about a wife and kids and the drain in your bank, you know, that sort of joke.

7:17And I remember that stuck with me thinking, well, no, I do want to have kids. I want to be a dad. So like I did grow up thinking that wasn't a possibility. and I think for a long time I carried a lot of shame with it as well because it kind of was the one thing that really stood out to me as like maybe not not being normal but like just I can't do that in life if that makes sense so yeah I think when we when we met each other we did talk about it quite early on but I don't know if we ever thought it would really happen but like we both kind of have the same morals same values you know things like family is really important to us and we did talk about it um and it just started to feel really natural then but you know I think that's why it's particularly felt so special for us is because we really did feel that as kind of teenagers and growing up into young adults that perhaps this wasn't a possibility and back then there wasn't the representation there is now so you didn't look at people and say oh there's two dads I can do that it was you know it really wasn't seen much so I think we kind of wrote off that dream so to then later be able to sort of start a family has been it's been magical yeah yeah incredible at what point did you start thinking maybe it could be a possibility we um about six it was just before covid wasn't it yeah about six years ago we we started to have conversations um with people that kind of done surrogacy yeah with american agencies uk agencies just trying to find out all the information and i think that was that was a point we decided we wanted to do it definitely but we just kind of needed to find out you know what if and all the information yeah so i'd say that's when we really sort of looked into it and kind of knew we were going to do it and we learned a hell of a lot because we just didn't, I don't know what we thought really but we just didn't understand, I think because of the legalities around it still and how things work, we didn't realise how much research we would have to do and how much we'd have to jump through to kind of, you know, do it.

9:02Well did you start thinking about doing it here first of all or were you instantly like actually know America's the place where we've got to do it? Well I'd heard of surrogacy in the UK so when we first had the conversation about doing it I was like well yeah of course we'll just do it in the UK and then we spoke to a guy who had had he was on his third child through surrogacy and he then said he was having the children in america i remember us being on the phone being like but why like and he was like let me talk you through it we're still there 45 minutes going through all the legalities of having it in the uk how things you know people can like bribe you and it was all these stories it was all a bit crazy but so we came off the call just thinking well how are we going to do that because obviously at the time like the financial implication of going over to the states and doing it it was a whole new whirlwind.

9:45I think I just, in my head, again, being quite naive towards America, you see America and all the laws and things like that. And I just thought, I don't know. You almost think it's more restrictive doing it. Yeah, you would do so. I think for us as well, like we actually had, I mean, it sounds crazy, we even had followers that were supposed to be like, if you ever want a surrogate, I'll be like, obviously you weren't going to pursue that. But we even had, you know, friends and people close to us that would be like, you know, I would look at this for you. But I think we really just didn't want to have any kind of complication or anything in the future where we felt like our child, you know, might be difficult relationships or what if we fall out with that person or what, you know.

10:20And we've sort of seen other experiences like that, actually. So we're glad we didn't. But we just felt like we really wanted to have it, you know, separate from any of our life and, you know, build a bond with someone and not have it too close to home. Because it's a worry. That's not why we went to America, but why we didn't sort of choose someone in our circle, shall we say. A lot of people said to me, why don't you, because one of my friends offered. And a lot of people said, that's just amazing. just let her do it. But for some reason in my head, I couldn't compute that one of my best friends would give birth to a child that we then would call our own.

10:51I feel like we just, in my head, I didn't want that closeness of it. I just kept thinking, what if we fell out in 10 years' time? She's like, that's my child, I gave birth to her. I just thought I couldn't be bothered with any of that. You never know what would happen. Am I right in thinking that in the UK, it's illegal to advertise that you want to be a surrogate and that you're looking for a surrogate? Yeah, and you can't pay a surrogate either, which is a really hot topic of conversation, of course. It's done as expensive, isn't it? Yeah, it's done as expensive, exactly. And listen, we hear so much about paying a surrogate, and I don't look at it in that way at all.

11:25I look at it in America, for example, as they give up a year of their life to go through all of these tests, all these medical stuff, embryo transfers, pregnancy tests and scans, but everything is absolutely huge. Like, of course, they should be financially compensated for that. And so we look at it in that way. But one of the reasons we go back to the kind of question is we chose America really was it really is regulated. You know, firstly, in the UK, it's not you're not legally protected. There's no legally binding contract, which I know sometimes could sound a bit crazy when it comes to children.

11:57But, you know, you need to be legally protected, obviously. Otherwise, the surrogate could change their mind. We could change our mind. In America, I guess the key thing for us was that from day one, you are the legal intended parents. so you've gone a birth certificate straight away you're legally protected like the surrogate cannot change their mind we cannot change our mind you're fully protected so even though there's complications when you come back to the uk you know if it ever went to court anything like that you know we are the legal intended parents whereas the uk doesn't have that legal protection i've heard you both talking before as well and in the uk not only is the uh is the surrogate classed as the mother on the birth certificate but if she's married her partner is then yeah so what's really crazy about that as well i think some people don't realize it's not just like same-sex couples that are affected by surrogacy you know we spoke to a woman that um you know had fallen really really ill and she couldn't carry we've had a woman on who's had breast cancer and so she had embryos and then she had to have um an egg donor and so she's had four via surrogate and every single time she has never been the the legal mum until further down the line so you're correct so yeah you know the surrogate is the legal parent and if legal mum and if they are married um you know that their husband becomes a legal dad even if they're not even part of the journey they have no yeah they have no biological connection to the baby so it is it is crazy and i think what also you know people always said to us you know when we were petitioning you know what about women's rights and and how does it affect it's like we're not trying to change any of that actually every surrogate we've ever spoken to agrees with this change they don't they're not going into this to be the legal mother that's not why they're being a surrogate so it actually is something that would benefit both sides but that was that that's the craziest thing that is an interesting outlook isn't it the fact that some people are viewing it as um the mother that the surrogate is in a negative space that is yeah she's almost been taken advantage of and actually no this is an adult who's very much like wants to do something for someone else because she wants someone else to be able to be a parent.

13:56And that's it. Like we, the amount of times that people have said to us, you know, it's preying on vulnerable women. It's like, it's not. It's actually work, like teaming with empowered women. Empowered women that know what they want to do, that want to help others start a family. Like it's so, the misinformation out there is absolutely crazy. And yeah, you're right. Exactly. Like they know what they want to do and they're not doing this to become, you know, a mother of any sort. So the law as it stands now just isn't good for anyone really. The thing is, we have to apply for a parental order now, and that in itself is more work for the surrogate.

14:30So, for instance, our surrogate now has to do paperwork after the birth to obviously assign the baby over to us after birth and stuff. And it's a lengthy process. It's nine months. So the campaign that we're doing is to try and get rid of this parental order so that basically none of this has to happen. And it isn't just the parental order. It's the stages in the parental order as well. Obviously one of us is Levin's biological father, but we come across issues, for instance, like at the doctor's trying to get her a passport because they want a mum and a dad on the passport. They want a mum and a dad.

15:02Even the nursery, they'll say. Yeah, I tried to register Levin at our doctors and I filled out the form. And on the online form, I had to put a mother's name in. So the only thing I put in there was TBC. I didn't know what to put. You couldn't get through otherwise, could you? I couldn't get through. So anyway, then they called me about half an hour later and the first thing the lady said to me on the phone was, was the mother deceased at birth? That's what she said to me. And I was like, no, we're a surrogate family. She was like, I need a mother on this paperwork. I was like, well, we had an egg donor.

15:32She was like, well, who's that then? Give me her name. And I was like, well, I was trying to explain the whole thing and there was just a real lack of education about it. But I came off that call feeling absolutely shit because I was like, we should both be able to be on that paperwork. But until we get this parental order, we're not able to do just normal things like that, I guess. register the doctors, get a passport, the nurseries, the schools, anything like that. I guess there's got to be a way that can simplify things but keep everyone safe at the same time. At the focus of everything, at the centre of everything is the child.

16:04It's any child that is born who's making sure that they are safe. So it's making things as simplified as possible so that it's straightforward from the off because that baby should be able to go to the doctors, they should be able to go to the nursery, they should be able to do all the things. And the intended parents should be their parents. So we're not trying to take away any women's rights whatsoever. We are literally, like, the government already acknowledged back in, I think it was 2023, that the law is outdated. It's not for purpose. And in 2025, they decided they wasn't going to change it.

16:35Honestly, speaking to our lawyer as well, we feel like they just don't feel it's going to win in the public vote. Essentially, not enough people support families like ours to do that. Yeah. However, I think, like, what we are trying to do is just simplify it. Exactly that. So intended parents become the baby parents at birth. And at the moment with us, because the process was done in America, in the UK, Levin legally is parentless because our surrogates in America. So she's not here to make decisions anyway. And we're not officially her legal parents. Well, let's go back. Yeah, sure. Because actually, obviously, you went down the America route to make it simple.

17:06Well, yeah, we did. We did. Because all that stuff wasn't going to exist. No, exactly. So in theory, we're going to America. Yeah. We're going to, how did that all work? Like, how did you find the agency that sort of felt right for you in the first place to even get it started? To be honest, we did some research around agencies, but then we actually spoke to a guy who had had three children through the agency that we were working with, who we chose in the end. And he just basically shouted about them from the rooftops and said about the process that they go through, the surrogates that they have and all, you know, Making sure that the surrogates work mentally well, they work in a good financial position, like Adam said.

17:48There's so many steps in that process. They can't just walk in off the street and say, hey, I want to be a surrogate today. I think it takes them, I think it's either 12 or 18 months of... To get to the point of matching them. To get to the point where they can actually be a surrogate. Did they also help with the egg donor or is that a separate agency again? They can, the agency that we used, But we chose a separate agency to do the egg donor. Just from research again. Just from research again. We went to a place in San Diego, the San Diego Facility Center. And they, just because, again, they had amazing reviews.

18:23They've got a really good network of egg donors, didn't they? And also as well, they have a huge success rate for embryo transfers. So that was really important for us as well. Because the process itself is very, very long. and a lot of the time the embryo transfer is obviously where things completely can fall down. So we wanted to try and get the best possible fertility clinic possible that had good rates for the embryo transfers, basically taking first time so they were successful. And how did you do it? Did you have both things starting at the same time? Or is it a case of going, right, we need the embryo first, so let's go down the egg donor route and then go down that path before we even look for a surrogate?

19:01So we kind of did them both at the same time. Yeah, it was in the background. Yeah, you get your embryos done first, really. I mean, I suppose you can do it however you want it to, really. Their advice, actually, at the start, I remember, was to go and do your embryos first. Yeah, so you've got them. I guess so it doesn't feel quite so overwhelming. Yeah, and also if we couldn't, you know, our embryos weren't healthy or, you know, anything like that, really. So we got them done first. Yeah, they said to do the embryos first and then to find a surrogate afterwards. But basically at the time, because...

19:31So we had the initial meetings pre-COVID, then COVID hit. So we were having conversations during COVID. So they actually said to us, what we're going to do is we're now going to try and match you at the same time. Because when we first became part of the agency, it was like six to eight months. But then at this point, they were like, our matching process is now nearly two years. So we were like, right, OK, let's get the ball rolling. So they were actually going alongside each other in the end. And yeah, we went over to San Diego. We had our embryos there. and then it was about 18 months afterwards before we actually matched with the surrogate, wasn't it?

20:04We must have, yeah, I think maybe a year later we matched with the surrogate and that was the other thing as well. Like, you know, we're going into this, we didn't know the process really but we realised this is probably going to be at least a couple of years before we're looking at having a family. Well, and there's so many different things that you two need to decide together as well. Yeah. Even in terms of like the embryo using whose sperm, like all those things that you have to kind of, you have to figure out and you have to be on the same page as continuously or being open to talking about stuff.

20:32Well, we both created embryos. So obviously we used the same egg donor and we both created embryos and we were lucky because we got 10, 11 healthy embryos between us, which was great. So we were kind of both sort of ready to go as such. But yeah, it's a lengthy process. And then we did match with the surrogate about a year after we did our embryos. So it would have been 2022. and when you match what does that mean so you initially have a conversation um with someone like on zoom because obviously it's america um and you sort of see who you you know have a feel like you could create a bond with and get on quite well with and if i'm really honest because it was such a new process to us we felt quite fortunate just to be having a conversation with the potential surrogate by the time it came yeah because it had been such a long time when they they met i remember they've messaged us and said we found a match for you and we would like literally jump yeah I can't believe it's finally here.

21:24We've found a match. Yeah, and if I had one bit of advice to someone now, I would probably say take your time a little bit more because we kind of spoke to someone and we were like, she seems okay and this can work and we can have a family. Well, there must also be this sense of almost relief at having been a match with someone. Do you know what I mean? There's that kind of like you've built it up for years to be this massive thing and then you're just like, there's a person, we're here. Yeah, and what if you say no? Is that another two years? So we were just like, okay, this is great. So we matched.

21:53We were so ready. Yeah. We were so ready at that point. Adam was just taking a break from the business that he had. Like, life had really started to chill out, and it kind of felt like it was all kind of slotting into place at the right time. So when it came through, I think in our heads we were like, yes, this is meant to be. Like, you know, life's chilling out now. We're so ready for a baby. I've got to write the chill-out part at that point. Well, no, yeah. Well, no, it started to, and then you went crazy again. Yeah, then it went a bit worse. So we matched with the cell record. We flew then out to L.A., which is where she was based, to meet her in person before we kind of officially started anything, of course.

22:25And we went for dinner and stuff. And, you know, she seemed nice. You know, it's difficult on a couple of meetings, of course. And, yeah, we sort of matched and carried on that process, really. And then I don't know the dates in my head, but a few months later after sort of medicals and everything, she then had the embryo transfer. What was that like? that day were you there for the transfer so there was transfer we weren't there for only because they kind of said to us look you've you've met with her you've kind of done embryos the transfer may or may not take so it's a four minute job pretty much a four five minute job um you know we won't know until weeks later so my guide would be come to the first scan that's when we'll know if the embryo is actually taken and stuff so that's what we planned to do really yeah so she we obviously we document this we facetimed it you know we're part of the process in that sense but it might be a case not to take and come back a few weeks later sort of thing so we weren't there for the embryo transfer but we we got this call to kind of say look you know this has been successful so we were buzzing and we thought that was that was it for us yeah we thought it was it was around the kitchen and that's another thing i would say to people as well is because i think it's like with any kind of ipf journey surrogacy journey whatever but you that whole process of the mbo transfer like it they kind of called us didn't they and they were like you're pregnant well done okay amazing we were like buzzing about it and then you start and then in your head you start you build everything oh yeah you kind of count forward the months you kind of see what's going to happen my Pinterest board was going west with like nursery which I'm sure it's crazy which everybody does I guess so that happened and then it was only a few days later like five six days later that we got they actually emailed us and said sorry this hasn't taken which we were furious about and who emailed the hospital the clinic the clinic emailed which we were obviously furious about because we were like this isn't an email conversation you know it's pretty so we were We were devastated because obviously we didn't know what to expect and we were like, great, we're going to become dads.

24:16This is amazing. But I would say building up to the embryo transfer, communication wasn't as good as it should have been with her from her side as in we were trying quite a lot and it would take some days to get messages back. And we spoke to the clinic and they were like, you guys probably should break this match. And we were like, but we're days away from a transfer and we're doing well with our family. So this was before that anyway? This was before that. So it was actually two days before we went in for our first embryo transfer. The agency called us and said, something's just off. we don't feel that this match is working as well as we did in the start but it must be really hard at that point to go but we're two days away from this happening and I called her and we had a conversation and she was fine so we were like look we're a few days away we've got to do this we've been waiting two years already in this process we want to start a family and after the transfer things are really really good and then we just had three weeks of no communication again and we were ringing and we were worried about her so we were like we need to know what's happened And then somebody from the agency managed to get hold of her and they said, look, she just doesn't want to do this anymore.

25:14Which, again, we understood. You know, it's a big thing for people to sign up to. Well, I wonder how many women even just start the process with amazing intentions and that desire to help people who can't have children and children. And then the reality of what that takes must just be overwhelming. One of the first things I remember, one of the first conversations we had with the surrogacy agency that we spoke to in America. and we both said the same thing is that when we go through this process we want to feel like we have a friendship with someone a true friendship we want to keep in contact with them as much as we can and we want a relationship with them pre and post birth and what we want to do in this process is just to make sure that nobody is pressured in any way shape or form because i mean most of my friends are female they've gone through miscarriages and things like that and i the pressure around that you're pregnant to, oh, you're not anymore, it takes a real toll on women.

26:11And I think, you know, I said to them it's really important that we have a relationship with this person where they know that we're not putting any pressure on them. Because you know that pregnancy is not that straightforward. Yeah, exactly. And miscoulders happen. Of course, yeah, and it does happen. And that's why when we spoke to her at the start, the agency actually emailed us and we didn't even speak to them. The first thing we did was ring her and say, are you OK? Like, please don't worry about this. And of course she felt guilt because five days later we were running around the kitchen saying we're pregnant.

26:36And I suppose there's kind of one thing, that being yourself and your partner. But if you're doing it for somebody else, it's kind of like an extra burden. And we fully understood that. We did understand that. In truth, something probably wasn't quite right. And maybe like now we would see that a lot earlier. And the agency, I think, were really upset for us as well because they had had like a communication stuff also. So they were kind of like, look, we'll try and match you, you know, as soon as we can again. But it can be up to 18 months. fortunately for us we you know within sort of three four months we did start to have conversations with people and this time we approached it very differently was that difficult allowing yourself to like opening yourself up to another person i think there was a belief that maybe you know is this going to happen again is this going to be the same thing again and like what what do you do and yeah it's like i think one of the hardest things about it um you know is that it's a daunting process you know it's difficult like we we want a family we do anything in the world to start it but you know you have to try and match someone you have to go and meet the family you have to go through them you know you're going through a big journey together they're carrying your baby like you're going to be at the birth like it's huge it's absolutely huge so it's very daunting to kind of meet someone and sort of think is this person going to be able to carry our child into the world so so it was daunting and we we went into it differently this time we went into it like okay you know that was a great conversation but we didn't feel that bond straight away so we up sort of three or four conversations later and even though we were worried will this ever happen for us we were like we have to make sure this time it's right and then we we obviously had a call with with Krista who was our surrogate and it just felt it just felt so natural didn't it did it feel very different yeah it felt completely different and about 10 seconds into the call we were like kicking each other to the table because we just from the minute she popped up on the screen we were just talking and an hour later we were still there talking and we were you were finding things out about each other and she was really invested in our lives she wanted to know everything about us and we wanted to know everything about her and it was really special yeah it was a really special moment we both came i remember we closed adam's ipad from the um from the zoom call and we both just kind of looked at each other we didn't say anything we just we just knew yeah and he was like i'm messaging the agency now yeah and then and then the first thing yeah we had a trip not long after so we managed to meet her and stuff and she we just felt like yeah she was just such a great fit and i'd say it was quite quickly then a few months because they have to go through medical checks and you know make sure the linings right and if like that and a few months later it would have been may may last year that we may last year we felt pregnant with levin and we flew out for her very first scan which was eight eight weeks was that a nervous wait waiting from yeah we didn't believe it really yeah because we because of what happened last time we were like until we probably see a heartbeat like we just feel like maybe this isn't going to happen and it was very different to the first time in that sense.

29:23It took me in particular, I think both of us probably quite a long time to really sort of sink in. Okay, this is real now. Because even when we got past eight weeks, we were like, okay, still risk here. And you know, you never know. But I think the clinic in I spoke to the clinic in San Diego, and I said, I don't want to have that call with you again, where you shout down the phone at me. Congratulations, you're pregnant. I don't want to do that. Because I don't want to be in a position where we were five days after before. So I said, I want this now to feel like right this is the stages you're at and I want daily or every other day updates of where we're at and when we get to a safe space that you class as a safe space I then want you to say right we think you're okay now to say that you are pregnant and they were really cautious and they were really good with that and they did exactly that basically.

30:07Also just going back to the match process so one of the reasons why it's a little bit harder for us and sort of longer time frames was there's a lot of religion in America so matching with gay people is sometimes a no for them and also a lot of people don't want international um intended parents and then krista was actually one of those she said she disregarded and said you know i don't want international because i want that relationship with someone but she saw our profile and i think the agency just said just have a look at these guys and she's like do you know what i have a chat and she she said to us she instantly felt it you know and i think the nervousness for her and i suppose anyone is like you don't want it to feel transactional in any way and we were like we do not want to be part of every part of this process and so that's why it ended up happening which again is is kind of i think it was meant to be because she said no to everyone that's international but just kind of was like do you know i'll give it a conversation and then then there we were so she'd said to her coordinator at the agency i don't want to speak to them like i'm my i'm done i don't want anyone international because for christa it's really important to have that relationship afterwards and i think she just thought that the international thing a bit too much.

31:10So she said no. And then Courtney, the coordinator, just said, just please speak to these boys. Like, you know, they're in the UK, but it's only a six, seven-hour flight away. It's fine. She said no a couple of times, and then she said yes, which was brilliant, you know. And she is honestly an absolute godsend. She is an angel sent from heaven. Like, we are so, so, so lucky to have found her. Like, honestly, so lucky. Had you met her before, in person, before the first camp? Yeah, but only very briefly. we sort of had like a couple of hours sort of to see her and that helped a lot as well and then when we flew over for the first gang we then met her child chloe and sort of went for meals and met her friends and stuff which was which was great um you should have seen us at christmas so we flew over to when levin was born yeah we flew over to the states 20 was it like 20th of december levin wasn't due to be born until mid-jan and christa basically moved into our airbnb with us and we were just like, we were snowed in every day because the snow was crazy and we were just basically like three slobs on the couch but like three best friends just watching TV, eating food.

32:12It was honestly amazing. The build-up was really special because we flew out. Yeah, we were devised to kind of come a couple of weeks early but we were like, what if, you know, something happens earlier? We wanted to be there. So we flew out a month before, yeah, about a month before she was due. Well, about four weeks. And yeah, as Jamie said, we then went down to her and we got this Airbnb. We were just there. It was the most special time. Looking back, it was just us and her little one, Chloe, came there as well. And it was just so lovely that we were just together. And we felt like we'd known each other forever.

32:40We were the closest friends, weren't we, like you say. And we did all those things. We went out for walks to try and make the baby come home. We were getting curries. We were part of that whole process. And she was brilliant. She wanted to involve us in every single part of it because I think she felt comfortable with us. And I think as far as surrogacy goes, there can sometimes be that disconnect, but we really felt connected with her. I guess if both sides are also saying, no, we want this to be a very connected thing where there's a long-term relationship of some sort, that's what you're looking for.

33:12That is the match, right? Of course, yeah, that is, yeah, yeah. Go back to the first scan. How did it feel being in that room and here in the heartbeat? It was incredible, wasn't it? It was so, so incredible. But I think, just carrying on that, we both still had the nervousness, I think, of like, this is really amazing. but I feel like we can't let ourselves get too excited here. But it was a really special time. And that's where we took it. The photo that we posted with the scan pictures was straight after that. We went back and we just looked at them for ages and talked so much about it. And yeah, we did start to get excited.

33:45But I remember feeling both of us sort of said, we just were a bit like, we just can't get too excited yet about it. Almost that nervousness to even go there. It felt really surreal for me because I actually thought that I would be a lot more excited than I was. But I think at that point, because we were still, what were we, eight weeks? Because we were at eight weeks, I was thinking, oh, everyone says you've got to get to 12 for it to be safe. And I just, because of what happened before, I was thinking, don't get too excited about this. But then the minute the photos were printed, I was like, okay, that's our child.

34:15I think when we got the scan photos, we were like, this is like almost like, this is our scan photos. This is real now. I remember being really nervous. I remember saying like really inappropriate things in the room. Did you? He does that when he's nervous. He loves to chat when he's nervous. I was really nervous. I was over talking and the nurse came over with this rod and I was like, what, that's going in there? And Krista just looked at me and said, obviously, it was like an internal scan. I was like, idiot, why have I just said that? These people don't even know me. She just looked over her shoulder like, yes, it's going in, shut up.

34:45Well, how frequent are the scans after that? And did you go back for them? Yeah, we went back one more time and then we went back. We were there three times until we went back for the first scan, went for one midway through. and then we flew Krista over to the UK. Oh, okay. So in August, yeah, we flew her to the UK, which was around our 21 week, 20 week, 21 week. Yeah, she was at our gender reveal. Yeah, we had all the family there. We went over to meet her, which was really cool. That was an incredible day, you know, that was one of the most special of our life, other than ever being born, obviously, where everyone was there.

35:16And yeah, we flew her and her daughter over. So she was there. We went for our scan afterwards as well in the UK. So we got to do that part. And then the next one was then December when we went over for the birth. yeah it was such a lovely experience and what did you do throughout the pregnancy to make sure that you both felt as connected as possible as you could we spoke every day to us our whatsapp group chat between me Krista and Adam was like ping ping ping all day long it was crazy and it wasn't it wasn't necessarily baby related things it was just chat when we were together we just talk it's like I don't I feel like she's been in my life my entire life she could be my sister which sounds weird obviously because she was our surrogate but i didn't want that but like i think the way around we've done it and now she's become part of our family and she's you know she's a household name and my mum will say oh how's christa like is she okay have you spoken to my friends all say to me all the time well how's christa they all love her like we were honestly i can't say it enough we were so so blessed with her like honestly so blessed you do you do feel a little bit of a disconnect you you can't of course in the sense of like i'm wondering if also that is that's the male part yeah yeah it's not growing in your course.

36:25Yeah, and that's the thing, that is literally the thing, like even our friends, you know, the dads had kind of said, you know, I felt like that because obviously we're not carrying the baby and you're not, you're not physically carrying your child. So sometimes, you know, you'd be out and about and you'd be like, oh my God, we're having a baby. Like, you know, you'd be like the realisation. I remember we went on holiday and we were just chilling around the pool and obviously we were having a great time and then I was saying to Adam, well, maybe she'll come back here next year. And he's like, we're going to have a child and I was like, there was moments where you forget you don't have a bump or a child kicking inside you or even just there I did have the fear as well that building up would I have that connection and how would it feel at birth because we're not carrying the child and also we're not every day with her but I don't feel like either of us struggled we felt that bond we wanted to speak all the time we got updates on everything we were never that intended parents either that was like you can't eat this you can't do it you know we were really chilled she was really respectful which was great so we had a great relationship and especially building up to the birth from December you know we really every day we made a point of talking to Levin and holding her stomach and every part of it I guess it must have felt very different from that point when actually being there yeah really different and we thought she was going to come early because Christa was quite low and obviously technically the second child she's birthed so we thought she could come early but she wasn't she was late in the end and she was due on the 11th of January right the name as well but she came on the 16th so like five days five days late in the end but that was that was lovely just bonding time we had with Krista and her daughter yeah the birth was wild well talk me through this when did it happen like how did it start well first and foremost it's worth saying that when we when we matched with the surrogate we you know they could specify if they want a natural birth or C-section and initially we thought you know a C-section probably makes more sense obviously if they want to do that because it's, you know, we're not, it's not a partner, for example.

38:20And obviously it's a lot of birth and it's probably a bit more of a procedure and it makes sense. But Krista didn't want to do that. And on her, you know, on her profile, she had said, you know, natural birth. And we did sort of say, how's this going to work? How's our bond going to be? We've got to be in the room. We can't not be. And I think if Krista would have said they can't be in the room, we would have had to match with someone else because we wanted to be there. But she said from day one, we could be. And we were a little nervous about that, weren't we? but I was just more nervous about Krista herself like what to do around her and yeah to make sure that she was comfortable I knew there was going to be some difficult times of like her not being comfortable and what do I do with myself did you talk about it ahead of time yeah we did yeah we had such a good relationship then though that Jamie is a bit of a joker so she was just like you can just joke Jamie whatever don't in a way it's kind of like don't maybe don't talk to me that much or whatever and we were both a bit scared because we were like you know we've seen things and you know obviously for a woman it's a lot to go through and the pain and everything and she actually didn't want to have an epidural so she's like i'm going to do it very naturally okay okay we'll respect anything you want to do yeah so when that started and the contractions started that was for me i was like all right okay we're really now having a baby and it's going to be in just a few hours time i know sometimes it can take a long time but the doctors has kind of been saying like here in a few minutes yeah she won't be too long it's an out-of-body experience in a way, isn't it, when you're there?

39:40Because you're like, we are about to become dads. It almost feels too big of a moment to be able to quantify it, if that makes sense. And it's an alien environment. Yeah, yeah, totally. And also, yeah, we're with an amazing surrogate as well that's given birth to our child for us. And yeah, luckily we had that such a bond that she wasn't nervous in any way either. We built such a great relationship. But yeah, she went a little bit of time without any pain relief. Yeah, and then there was one point where she was, I mean, as you do because it's painful, she's screaming the hospital down. And we had to leave the room because I was just, I left the room, we stood in the corridor, and I just burst into tears.

40:18We both cried. We both just cried, and I said, I can't, I felt guilty because I was like, we're putting her through this. This is horrendous. We're making her go through this process, and she's in so much pain. She was a dream the whole time. She was like, it's completely fine. I've done this before. I know it's normal. Please don't panic. And I thought, we can't panic in front of her. but eventually then she did decide to have the epidural and from then on, I mean, her pain obviously was a lot less than what it was. I think she was in a lot of pain towards the end. Right. She kept referencing a burn.

40:47Big fire. Yeah. She kept saying, it's burning, it's burning, and I was like, oh no, please make it stop. I was like, I've never said to the doctor, is there anything you can do to stop that? And he was like, no, everyone kept saying that. But after the epidural, it was like a different person. Not that I'm, you know, advocating medication in any way, you know, people are different, but for her it was a complete difference and we felt relief because we were like, she's not feeling the pain now and like this is this is easier for her yeah and how were the were the hospital completely aware of the situation and supportive they were amazing well they were but no but there was there was quite a lot of terminology that was that was not correct and you know to be honest with you Krista was more frustrated than what we were yeah you know it was like oh mum's here and she was like I'm not the mum I'm the surrogate these are the two dads and like things like that where even though America is more common and they were aware they weren't they weren't really thinking i mean we were we were fine with it but it she was getting frustrated she was like i'm not you know i don't want you to keep calling me the mom i'm not the mom on the surrogate um and then and then we had a bit of a sort of traumatic turn in there because they suddenly you know the baby's heartbeat wasn't where it needs to be it dropped massively and i said the baby levin's heartbeat and the russia doctors came in and like flipped on all fours and we were basically just crying because we were like oh my god what's what's happening and they wouldn't speak to us if we were asking.

42:00They just wouldn't speak because they were concentrating, obviously. I said to the doctor at one point, please just tell me everything's okay. And she said, I actually can't tell you that right now. So I just looked at him, burst into tears, and I said, we haven't come this far for this to happen. I was like literally looking at the sky being like, please do not let this happen. And it felt like an eternity. I think it was only about two, three minutes. But in that space, it was a long time. And yeah, they were hitting Crystal on the back. They were shaking her belly. They shoved something. They basically put something in so they could put it on Levin's head.

42:28to monitor her heartbeat better and they kind of just had to go straight in and luckily it did pick back up again. But that was something that will always stay with us as well because it was very traumatic. But also we don't revisit those things. No. I think birth can be really traumatic and actually it's just something that we're just meant to carry on. No, we don't reference it. We don't go through that again. I mean, the whole thing, to be honest, is the trauma. For like, I mean, I found a whole new, found respectful women. Jesus Christ. It's wonderful and difficult at the same time. Yeah, but when you think of the word trauma, you go through all these ups and downs, like one minute she was being sick, the next minute she was in pain, and then afterwards, obviously, baby's here, but she's bleeding, she's sore, then the placenta comes out.

43:13It's very traumatic. There was a lot going on. It is traumatic. I don't think we quite quantified what a woman has to go through for birth. And of course, we would want to do it again. We want to be dad so bad, and we're so incredibly grateful to Christa, but I don't think we could have ever prepared for what birth was. And I say that in like the way of being difficult, but also absolutely incredible. It's the best experience of our life. I would imagine that the majority of people go into having a child not knowing what birth looks like. And that's what makes it scary, right? Because you don't know.

43:45You don't know what your body's going to do. You don't know what your partner's going to have. They're going to deal with it. You don't know how to be a support to the person that's giving birth. You don't know. And everyone's different, right? And that's a scary thing. And you hear all these stories and you're kind of like, there's trauma oh no it's magical it's this it's that it's so many ups and downs there's so many ups and downs and actually all you can do is go into that room yeah and just be there in whatever capacity you're needed i will forever be in krista's debt for everything that she's done for us and yeah i'm just i'm so grateful like i think i wake up every morning look at and just think i just just love her so much i'm obsessed with her and i do think for us as well like you know not taking this away from anybody else because i'm sure it's incredible for everyone but i think because we grew up thinking you know this wouldn't be our our life and you know we then were in the process for six years and then everything I think for us it feels particularly special you know some people can't accidentally fall pregnant and before they know it the baby's here you know it's a different experience as such but I think because she was wanted and hoped for and dreamed of for so many years you know that that feeling for me five months in has not changed it's getting bigger and bigger you know it's it's incredible and we just look at her with utter disbelief that she's kind of ours and and yeah it's just it's magical really yeah you look back to that conversation with your mum yeah and your mum going science i know science might help you like yes mum yeah but if you knew my mum you would think oh that's just maxine she says she says the funniest funniest stupidest things all the time so at the time i said oh mum show up it's not gonna happen like it will never happen.

45:17So yeah, it feels special that it has now. Has Christa already talked to you about the future and whether she would be a surrogate for you again? Is that something that happens or do people not go back to the same surrogate? It depends. I mean, some obviously would be like, that's, you know, done sort of thing. It depends. She did say in her profile, you know, just one surrogacy journey, that's all I want to do. We have spoken since and she has said, you know, I would do it again for those guys, you know, just based on things that just kind of lose your conversations and she wouldn't want to do it for someone else because of the, you know, the relationship you build.

45:52And I think for us, we've said, but we haven't had the official conversation because I don't think we've not felt we want to put any pressure on her at all after birth. You know, she's going through different hormones. She's been incredible, but like we just don't want her to feel any pressure and we also just want to enjoy the bubble. Well, 11's only five months. Exactly, exactly. That's what I mean. It's not a conversation for now. We said the same. Like we were like, you know what? We, I think if we had to go through the matching process again, we'd have to really, really think hard about that.

46:18And that's the difficult thing, right? So if it took you two years to get to that bit, actually, how long do you wait before you come to that decision? And also, Krista, you know, even if she did want to do it again, you know, she could meet someone next week and that changes everything. You just never know. So she's coming over to see us in August. So I'm sure, you know, we'll probably have combo and stuff. But we haven't really spoke about it yet because he was like, I'd love to. And I was like, well, let's just enjoy Levin, see how we get on his dad's. like see what we think because we are very much like i i would love to have us to give her a sibling yeah i think for us as well because obviously only one of us can biologically be levin's dad you know we've always said to each other historically like we we both would want to have that opportunity to do that we both said before basically with levin we picked the embryo at random so our god daughter alba flipped a coin literally and clinic matched up to the embryo so So we had no idea until after, well, just before she was born, like after the gender reveal.

47:17Did they tell you then? Yeah, we asked to find out because obviously we need to know that there are embryos and obviously we need to know for medical reasons and stuff. We didn't find out until the gender reveal, though. No. And so we didn't know who's going to be. And we both said, like, we love the bones for each other. It doesn't matter to us at all. But if we did have two, obviously it would make complete sense for us both to be polydactically dead of one of each sort of thing. So, you know, we both love the opportunity, I suppose, to do that. And that's another consideration that perhaps, you know, a regular couple doesn't have to consider.

47:49But again, you know, if we only have Levin, you know, we love that, you know. She's incredible. She's also very lucky. Yeah, well, I wish I was her when I was younger. Thank you.

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50:10what happens after birth so immediately after birth um we do skin to skin um and then technically what happens is they have a room for us and they have a room for Krista. Obviously Krista's got to recover so we obviously go with Levin into our room and spend time with her but Krista and the bond being so good she basically came to our room pretty soon afterwards and we were, I'll be really honest, we were worried because I did not know how Krista would be after birth. She has given birth to a child even though it's not biologically hers at all and with intended parents, it's a lot for a woman to go through to carry a baby for nine months.

50:46Her body doesn't recognise that it's not hers, essentially. She still has the hormones. She still has all that rushing through hers. And we didn't want to do the wrong thing, and we didn't want to feel awkward in any way. But luckily it didn't. It really didn't. She was really respectful with us, and everything she referenced, you know, your dad's here now, and I've carried you, and it's so special. She was so lovely. So we spent a lot of time together, and she slept in her own room, but she was in ours constantly after that. So we were in hospital for like two days, because they keep you longer in America.

51:14and then yeah that was that really and then that was probably a weird part because we kind of then went back to our Airbnb with Levin which was incredible and obviously Krista went home and again respectful she wanted to come with us but she was respectful like you've got to have your time because you've had that month and you've got to be together all the time and suddenly it's like see you later I think it only lasted two days yeah she visited us and then she was back for the month yeah we were there for like three weeks afterwards because you have to wait for passport and everything that's come through so we were there for about a month then so she came to see us most days really to be honest with you and it was nice but again she was respectful so she'd pop in, she didn't stay overnight because again she was like you've obviously got your baby you've got your feet and stuff like that so it worked really well didn't it it was great when we left the hospital because we were in the States it was just me Adam, Levin, obviously Krista was there but not living with us at that point that bubble was like probably the most magical 3-4 weeks of my life because no one can come and just tell and also there's a time difference so we just our phones weren't going off in like in the mornings we just it was just us together and it was so special honestly that was probably the my the most favorite three four weeks of my entire life my mum came out in week three and she flew home with us um which was again really really special that she flew out and had that time so she was the first person to meet her in the family but that just us yeah i think i always say when i'm old and gray like i'll go back to those first few weeks in my dreams because that was just inexplainable the feeling you know that that bubble and because we didn't have anyone you know coming to visit or whatever other than christa you know we were just there it was just our time and it was so special i don't want to be that person that is also like oh everything's great for us but like we haven't actually argued about levin not yet we will at some point i'm gonna i am gonna caveat that for for any mums any woman watching that we don't have the hormone drop after birth you know we're not recovering from from labor labor and and that is a big thing that i don't take so you are both coming into it like mentally and physically yeah absolutely yeah so i think that makes a huge difference and we're not breastfeeding you know that's a big thing so you know we really just completely shared the load um we knew what we were doing we did shifts you know so we were kind of passing shifts the night at times but we kind of were like let's not do everything we did the first few days but let's not do everything together and both be really shattered and not you know so we really support each other and play to each other's strengths and yeah we really just we the thing that I was surprised about most and that I'm really proud of actually was that I was so scared to become a dad thinking what do you do how do you do this like I'm not got mother's instinct I don't know if that's a thing you know I wasn't sure and I was like what am I going to do but the way it just clicked into place and like I just knew what to do for our daughter was something that I like I said I'm really proud of that we just didn't because people even said like afterwards It was like, you know, you're taken away from her mother.

54:03You're, you know, she's going to need a mother. She's used to that in a sense. She's not going to settle for you. So we had all these things in our head which were like, how do we prepare for that? But that just wasn't the case. You know, she did instantly settle on both of us. She, you know, that was amazing. And we just felt like we just knew from day one, even though we were winging it, we just knew what to do. And that's never changed. And that's something that, you know, that instinct, whether it's motherly or fatherly, you know, it does, it is a real thing. And we had that. before she arrived I had so many things in my head that I felt anxious about I won't be able to do this I won't be able to do that I've got like intrusive thoughts of like I don't know silly things of like oh she's going to be so small I might drop her I might hurt her so many silly things and I was so anxious about it before she was here and then for some reason when she arrived I had not felt anxious about any of it it kind of just was like right your head's in the game you just get on with it and you have to have to just do it but again it was like there's a real sense of achievement with what we've both done with levin when we announced that we were having a baby last year there were so many people and i'm talking thousands of people because we did it on social media and you know that's what we chose to do but so many people told us we couldn't do this and people tell us every day we can't people will say yeah i was on the train down here today and this woman sent me a whole paragraph on instagram of like how much of a shit dad i must be because like the baby needs a mother and she's disgusted and our story and all this lot and we get reminded every day of like you shouldn't be doing this but I think we're doing it and actually I think we're doing it very well I'm proud of him because he does it really well and I'm sure you want me yeah and vice versa we're a really really good team we never like we don't feel like we've got anything to prove to anyone like we didn't go into this to try and prove to anyone anything but the amount of people that kind of have messaged as well and said I really didn't know how two dads would do this I really wasn't sure I really did think baby needed a mum and actually you've changed my opinion has been really like yeah there's a flip side of it can i just ask adam because your relationship with your mother isn't it's non-existent it's non-existent uh and you had a really problematic childhood because of that bond is it therefore really difficult for you to hear people say a child needs their mother knowing that you didn't have your mother in the way that you think a child should have their mother yeah i think yeah I mean don't be wrong like my my dad walked away really early like 18 months and you can recognize what she was up against yeah absolutely and this is the thing that I don't really carry the hatred towards my mother the way that I maybe used to like I've you know I've had lots of therapy and stuff and I'm quite you know at peace with it all and I do look back and say god you know she had four kids dad left and and she went a bit west for whatever reason but she didn't prioritize her kids or or care for her kids in the right way and I never had that growing up like you know even a mother would come to parents even anything like that you know I just didn't feel that but she was around until my early teens um so yeah it does it does frustrate me because although obviously in that instant I you know she still I did live with my mum and she did still bring me up but it wasn't the childhood that I feel that we're going to go to 11 that's for sure um and also you you know a mother isn't just like a mother to be a parent is very different if that makes sense Like a mother and a father is a title, right?

57:17Like, you know, being a parent is completely different. So, yeah, it does. It makes you really passionate about it and be like, well, no, I know loads of people where their mothers have not been in their life or been alien to them. So that's not true. Like what a child needs is love, support, care. Stability. Stability, exactly. And we're going to give her that in spade loads. um but i'd be lying if you know i'd be lying if it didn't get to me at times because i i feel like um so i feel upset saying it but like like i suppose it's just a bit of a it feels like a battle and i and i feel guilt i suppose in a way of like never never going to school or experiencing this in the outside world be like oh you've got two dads or whatever and i hate i hate that feeling I can't always protect her the way that I want to.

58:02But I do feel strongly that, you know, if we can be everything she needs at home and give her everything she needs, she's going to, you know, wherever she might experience that, because she will inevitably, you know, she can go home and say, I don't care because my dad's loved me. And I think that's the most important thing that we can do for her. But it does feel like a battle. Jamie's right. We get it. We really do get it every day. You know, we do. Has that surprised you? Yeah, massively. Massively. I thought we would get a little bit. but the online article that we initially had on us, 2 ,500 horrendous comments.

58:34They had to delete it. And they were all parents. Which isn't heard of, but the actual news outlet that had it actually deleted the article. And they were all parents. When you looked at them all, they all had profile pictures of parents and kids and that was the thing that I was like, wow, the landscape has changed a little bit. But the comments are so disgusting. like it's like people will comment and say oh they must be paedophiles that poor kid's going to have this happen to them when they're older and they were like they were graphic and it was just odd Some of them are stupid but the most common one really was you know stealing a child from a mother and that is just pure ignorance and misinformation you know like Krista is not Levin's biological mother you know she carried her and grew her which is incredible but Levin wouldn't exist if her two dads had not created these embryos and partnered with an egg donor and brought her into the world.

59:26So it's just such a misinformation. And I think that is really hard. And the idea of her ever seeing that is difficult. But I also feel quite strongly about us sharing our story and our journey. Yeah, of course. Because the amount of people that messaged us and said, this is so incredible to see. I've got a little boy who's just turned gay and perhaps he could be a dad. So I think it's really important we share the story. And I'm proud of that. But the side that comes with it, it did really shock us. I will say that we are really, really strong. We are both strong characters, and actually we've gone through the whole thing of not bothering us at all.

59:59But you can be strong and you can also turn to each other and go, this is really hard, I wasn't expecting this. And I think to get abuse like that, when you know the reality of your situation, you're good people. Yeah, the difference as well is that Levin's now here, and I think when she became real, that sort of changed it a little bit for me, and that's when I sort of looked and thought, okay, how's school going to look? and that parent saying that to us, her child's going to grow up and potentially say that's 11. And they were the things where I think it started to feel a little bit different then.

1:00:28I was like, how do I protect her? And you can't always keep her in cotton wool, you know. But you want to. We've had parents' messages as well, and not just once, on a lot of occasions, and say things like, I'm going to teach my children that what you've done is wrong. And I will make sure that my child bullies your child if they're in the same school. It's stupid things like that. But then you think now she's here, that's so scary. Like, I don't want her to go to school and have to experience those things. I want her to know that, you know, yes, she is protected, but also these people are, I mean, they're few and far between, but it's heavy when it's like daily interview.

1:01:01Listen, I'm proud of everything that we've shared and I will continue to hold my head up high and, you know, fight for change and look at, you know, speak, speak for it. And like I say, we're strong enough and we know that's going to go down to 11. and it's just some days it can catch you off guard a little bit when you look at her and you think she doesn't deserve this. You know, she's got two loving parents. I can totally understand why you were a little bit hesitant to go on a podcast called Happy Mum when you've had so many people go, what about the mum? Yeah, totally, yeah. Yeah, always. And I have probably found myself question more things and being a little bit more defensive than I probably would be because of how much of that we've had.

1:01:41But also it's a very real thing because it's Levin. You know what I mean? As parents, you've got that protectiveness and you want nothing but good in the world for her. Yeah, totally. Absolutely. Going back to Levin and the month after, you get the passport, you get the birth certificate, you get the passport, you come back. Do you think that's it? Do you think like we are now set, we're heading home and this is the start of our life together? So we were about... And we were about two weeks ahead of coming home and we were literally scrolling TikTok and we saw this TikTok from two guys that had twins in the US via surrogacy.

1:02:24And they were explaining about this parental order that they needed to get where they got to the UK. And Adam was like, oh, we don't have to do this, do we? And I was like, no, of course we don't. We've come to America for a reason. We don't have to do any of that. It's all covered. We had spoken. It's worth saying we've spoken to lawyers and we weren't misadvised, but it was a bit of misinformation, a bit of confusion. Yeah. Yeah, our agency had basically explained it to us that because we were having the 11 in America, that those things would be covered legally and everything in America was fine.

1:02:48So I think there was a bit of miscommunication because we was like, okay, well, if it's fine in America and that's where she's born, we're good. So then I contacted them and said, I've just seen this TikTok about these two guys that use an agency in America and they've had to get a parental order and they replied pretty much instantly. Oh yeah, you still have to apply for that in the UK. So then we were like, okay, fine. Surely it won't be too much hard work. It's going to be fine. just be a bit of paperwork or whatever and then we started looking into it and worked out exactly everything that's involved in the parental order and we were a bit like oh this feels a bit shit yeah it's essentially like the same like i know you mentioned earlier about obviously why we went to go to america to do it i mean we would still do the american side of it again because you are legally protected in terms of going on the birth certificate intended parents from day one so that is still the legal protection you can't get that in uk but obviously they just don't uk law doesn't recognise that so the parental order is a bit that we then obviously have to do don't we yeah so we then yeah if I found out we basically had to wait until 11 was six weeks old and then you can apply to this parental for this parental order which is essentially a 200 page document that you the government has to fill out and it's everything about us so it's about myself Adam our families I've like you know they look into the history of like your parents and what they've done making sure everyone's like hey you have to have social service visits at your house to make sure that you're fit to be parents make sure it sounds almost like an adoption pro like yeah it's very similar yeah they have to do that so um they cut you is it calf class that come out yeah calf will come out to the house and they will assess levin's living conditions to make sure that she's okay um that obviously we're treating her the right way and do all of that it's quite an invasive process and i i think it's quite backwards because i understand it in the adoption process because baby hasn't been given a home so obviously you would go and you would check the home and you would make sure everything's okay and parents are vetted we've done all of this in america already and levin is here so the parental order for me in surrogacy doesn't make loads of sense when you've had a baby overseas because in america in particular krista goes through the most intense questioning mental health checks you know therapy sessions everything we do as well they find out every inch about you before you sign up to the agency and are able to have a baby in America.

1:05:09So we've done all of this already but when we come over to the UK the UK lawyer says, actually we don't recognise any of that, we want to do it ourselves. So you start that process again but... It's not the end of the process, is it? You end up in high court. Yeah, you have to go to the high court. You have a day in court and obviously the judge to declare that you can become legal parent. And I always say this, it's not, you know, would I do it again 100 %? I do it tenfold for 11. But I think it's just the mental and emotional impact it has. When we had the call with a lawyer to be like, is this correct?

1:05:39And he's like, yeah, you can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this. We came off both in tears because we were a bit like, it feels like our parental responsibilities in a way, some of them have been taken away. She's coming into the world because of us, we're our parents. So that has been hard. And I think that's probably the bigger part of that you shouldn't have to. You should be able to enjoy your bubble with your baby. and as we said before the law is outdated and it's it's not helping anybody it's not fit for purpose so it's a waste of everyone's time it's even like the terminology on the paperwork one of the there's basically two sets of pages that you have to fill out and one of them is um biological parents you fill out all the information for the biological parent and then the title of the second one is um person it's like something like person who wants responsibility of child it's like right okay so you can't this is the terminology of it or then you have to fill out all this and And it basically says, oh, why do you want to do this?

1:06:29Because it's my daughter. You know what I mean? So when you fill in the information out, for both of us, it's just a bit like, yeah. You'd also think, obviously, with one of us being biologically her dad, that that is enough. But because it's surrogacy law, that overrides any kind of traditional law, if that makes sense. And then, like I say, in our situation, the surrogate is the number one legal parent. the biological dad has some more rights but not actually not legal parental responsibility still because of the surrogacy piece so it's it's just so it's so backwards in the way that it works and like i say that they've even acknowledged you know it's out of date but it just doesn't seem to be obviously a priority to fix but and it's definitely you know if anything changes definitely not going to impact our situation now but we just hope we hope in the future that it will it will certainly change and yeah this yeah you started a petition yes we started yeah i knew from the minute that i i knew from the minute that we found out about this so it was actually about a couple weeks before birth that we we first start to question i have the call yeah and i just knew i was like okay i need to look at maybe how we can make a difference because we have got a great platform loyal followers and within 48 well two and a half days we've got over 100 000 signatures which we It blew us away because I honestly thought, you know, we might go to the 10 ,000 mark and get a written response.

1:07:52You know, this isn't life-threatening condition that's being sought. You know, it's parents like us that we want to change the law. But the support and the outpour with it was just incredible. And we were so proud that in two and a half days, we got to that over that 100 ,000. And that was such a magical moment. Sort of it being on the screen with us and Levin, wasn't it? We could be like, we've done it. And the truth is, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. but it does mean that it will go to committee to be debated in parliament do you know when that's happening so i mean i was looking at some of them some of them waiting a year or so so the government initially responded to the 10 000 they have to do that and they basically wrote on it saying we understand that you know the law is is not as outdated but at the moment there's no plan to change great not even worth the papers written on sort of thing but because we hit the hundred thousand it now has to go for this debate so we're waiting to hear but we are in the meantime just trying to keep the petition alive really obviously chatting on here even to talk about it obviously we were on this this morning and different things and there's been some great press support in it as well and as we kind of get nearer to understanding we're going to start speaking to local MPs and just seeing what we can do to sort of really because I think the biggest thing that stands out and our lawyer said it was that the government probably don't believe there's enough support for this kind of change and I think we want to try and prove that there is there is a family you know families like us and this doesn't just affect me and jamie's two dads you know this affects you know like i say people that have gone through that can't conceive themselves you know it's a huge thing and it's just not fit for purpose so we really hope that we can change it and people you know families in the future don't have to go through you know what we and ultimately if no one ever talks about it nothing changes i mean if no one does anything then it just stays exactly as it is yeah and we spoke to people as well like through conversations who are surrogates and again i spoke to a lot of surrogates as well to get their opinion before i sort of launched it and they were like, you know, we don't feel like we've got a voice or platform, but we don't want to be, you know, the legal mother at birth.

1:09:41So obviously it drags out for us for that nine months, but it also drags out for them as well. So does Levin have to have a British birth certificate as well? Yeah, so she will, at the minute she's got a US birth certificate, we're both on that, she's got a US passport, and then we apply for parental order, which is then when we'll get the UK birth certificate, correct UK birth certificate, and her British passport as well. So at the moment, is there no British birth certificate? No, she has no British birth certificate now. If she did, then it would have to have Krista's name on it. Okay. So we're going to wait for the parental order before we apply for that.

1:10:13So with no birth certificate, can she travel on her US passport? US passport, yeah. Everything, all the paperwork that she needs is in place for that. So when do you think the parental order will? It could take up to a year. What does that do, come through, finish? We have to go to court, yeah. So basically... Get approved? Yeah. So essentially, when all the paperwork is ready and we've had our social service visits, we will then get a court date where we have to go into court and then the judge will basically say that he approves or disapproves. There's not that we know of. There's not been a case that's ever been disapproved.

1:10:49So we're obviously confident that the parental order will come through. It's a matter of process, really. It's a process thing, yeah. So when that happens, but we're hoping towards the end of the year maybe because we applied for it when she was, what, six weeks old, so it should be like November, December time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so hopefully it'll come. What would you love to see in place? Because obviously it is that thing, like we said, it's all about keeping babies safe. Yeah. But how would you like to see the law changed? So what we're actually petitioning for really is quite simple, like, you know, make intended parents like us, you know, legal parents from birth.

1:11:24That's it. That's as simple as that. So that's what we want to do, you know. No parent should have to go through this legal process really. so that's the only thing we're changing and you know well no one's coming at me and looking at my exes or my finances or you know talking about my mum and dad yeah yeah it is and I think for us in America obviously when you get the birth certificate and your name's on the birth certificate it's really lovely and then when you come back to the UK and it's actually both of you can't have that role and both of you can't sign up to a doctor it takes kind of like it takes something away from you yeah it does and I think that it does have a bit of a mental effect on you and you worry about things you think well what happens if it happens to one of us and it's her biological father and then the other parent doesn't stand for anything So in America on her birth certificate both dads can be on her birth certificate and in England, in the UK is that at all possible to have two dads on your birth certificate?

1:12:16Only once you get the parental order So they sort of disregard the birth certificate we've got and essentially until we get the parental order and what I will say is like as I mentioned before we're not looking to change any of women's rights or anything like that it's really simple and you know it's intended parent yeah and in most cases i would say nowadays in surrogacy you know it's normally an egg donor that is used rather than the surrogate's egg so normally the surrogate is not the biological mother if they were the biological mother i would absolutely agree that they should go down because they are the biological mother so that that is that is completely different and there would obviously have to be some you know stipulations within it but it is really simple that yeah the intended parents you know become the parents of birth yeah And that's the petition we're doing.

1:12:56I mean, I would openly say that I would like the UK to look at the surrogacy law all over. Of course, yeah. And, you know, to maybe if they did look at the law and make it more legal in the UK, it could be more regulated like it is in the US and in other countries. Because in the UK it isn't regulated. So I feel like because it isn't, there's a lot of underground things that happen in surrogacy and it's got a bit of a stigma. We were queuing to get on the plane a couple of weeks ago and we were just stood in a line minding our own business and this lady came up to us and she looked at us both and she went, how?

1:13:29Yeah. I was like, we were both so, we were like, she was like looking at Levin, she looked at us and she literally looked from the floor up and she was so close and she went, how? Well, not luckily, but a lady in front of us who did know who you were said, that's none of your business. And I thought that was really lovely because she was just like, we didn't even get a chance. We were a bit shocked. But we are very different now. I would face that straight on now and be like, we're two dads. I don't care if you don't like it. this is our daughter but at first I was a bit like I need to keep my head down just get through this whereas now our outlook is completely different and we're very proud of our story we're very proud of two dads you don't have to like it you don't have to agree with it no of course not but our stance is very different I think now which is a good thing I think yeah I definitely feel like when we first left the house with Levin here in the UK I was a bit nervous guys I'm so sad that you feel that way no I was do you know what I mean that you feel like you've got to go through an airport quickly with your head down.

1:14:24You feel like you can't just... You're a family. Yeah, of course, of course. And I feel more... Like Adam said, we feel more confident with it now. We were just kind of getting used to it. That's why I'm proud of the growth that we've had with it now. And it's like, no, no, we're so proud of our family. Also, I've got to say, and it is different, obviously, because you've had people that actually have physically come over to you. But sometimes I think when you see those thousands of comments saying things, you can think that you step out your door and everyone is looking at you. Yeah, you do. The reality is they won't be.

1:14:50They won't be paying a blind bit of difference to you. The reality is, is no one would ever vocalise anything, even if it was in their heads. You know, you've got to be a certain type of person, I think, to walk up to someone and go, how? And you do, you probably, you probably do have a little bit more, like when we were at the bar thing in the airport and the woman was like, you know, you're creating a rod for your back. Like she just kind of, she told me, she went, you should get a crane rod for your back, getting her out. And I was like, she's our daughter, she's crying. And I probably felt probably a bit more defensive on that than I normally would because of the comments online and the fact that you're like, straight away, you want to be defensive.

1:15:24She's like, I know why you're saying that we're two dads. She might not have been. She might have said it to you. I have had many mums come over to me and say things in advance. Stuff like, aren't you going to give him a dummy? No, he's just going to cry. But I think because of the opinions we've had, you naturally sort of think that sometimes. Has parenthood been what you thought it would be?

1:15:46It's been more. I knew it would be amazing. I honestly knew it would be amazing because, like I say, we weren't there for so long. But I think it's been more, way more. And what I'm actually surprised about a little bit as well, as I thought as a newborn phase kind of comes to an end, you're going to miss it so much. But actually, because it gets even more wonderful, you sort of don't. I mean, you do mourn a little bit of like, oh, she was that little. But every day, you know, it becomes more and more special. She's getting more personality. She's doing more things. And you're like, wow, this just becomes.

1:16:15I can't imagine the moment that she says like dada or love you like I'm just going to crumble I think so like to have all that to come is pretty amazing yeah Adam walked into her nursery the other day and I was literally on the floor crying what's up with you and I basically had opened the drawer and I found the hospital outfit that she came home in it was just like a little baby grave it was literally this big they're so small and I just cried so much because I was like where's where has she gone like she's like she's so big now well she feels so big obviously she's not but for me I just I can't grasp how I have just this new obsession that I can't stop thinking about because I've got nieces I've got a nephew, we've got godchildren I love them all, I adore them but they always went home and she's here but I just love every second of it, like I miss her like going in a shower, I'm like what should I do, I can't stop thinking about her, it's crazy and I don't think I prepared for that Yeah.

1:17:12If you could write a letter on fatherhood, who would it be to and what would you say?

1:17:19It's a weird one, really. I think. Can I say to? Yeah. So first of all, I'd write one. I'll give you the positive one first. I'd write a letter to my friends who are dads. Yeah. In particular, our godfather's dad. Sorry. Sorry, our goddaughter's dad, Jake. and I would just let him know that he's doing an amazing job and it would just say that because I don't think, you know, I think he's told all the time, Charlotte will always say to him, he's a great dad, he really, really works hard and he idolises those children and he's exactly what they need in their life. But I think for some reason a lot of men, those comments come in one ear and out the other.

1:18:01I don't think they actually take on board what they're like and I think they met really close on. They fell pregnant within two months and I don't think, you know, they quite expected that. His life was, like, turned upside down, as was Charlotte, straight away. And they're both incredible parents. She was made to be a mother. She is honestly insane a mother, isn't she? But I would just say to him, like, man to man, like, you are everything those children need and you're doing a great job. It wouldn't say much. And then I'm not a man of many words, but I would tell him that. But then the second one I think would be, my real father died when I was six years old.

1:18:38And he, I learned later in life that he particularly wasn't the best of people. He didn't really have a great respect for women. You know, he was horrendous to my mother. He used to beat her. He used to cheat on him all the time. He had no respect for her, basically. And those, I kind of knew, I was six when he died, and there's a lot of arguments in the home, and I remember things like that, and I remember the physical side of it. and I've kind of built my life now making sure that I will never be the person that he was but in some ways I kind of almost thank him for that because I've always, always thought I will never put myself in a position where I'm that disrespectful to anybody let alone a woman, my mum included and he in his awful ways has taught me a lot of how not to be and that's the dark side of it But, you know, I just I look at my mum and I hear the stories from him and I just think, God, thank God that I'm not that person and I'll never be that person.

1:19:41I'll vow to never, ever be the person that he was. I guess being six as well, you would have understood things on a certain level. And as you've got older, piecing the bits together that, you know, and then maybe speaking to your mum in a different way. How was that kind of discovering what you were protected from really as a kid? yeah I think when I think back to being a child is it's a bit of a blur yeah pre him I remember I remember him just being very shouty very aggressive and then him and my mum actually split up when I was two years old he got another girlfriend and that didn't change it was the same with her and then he got another girlfriend and that didn't change it was the same with her and they were always the problem they were always crazy and they were always acting a certain way and I remember him saying those things to me as a child like oh just ignore her she's this she's that and women would be spoken about in a very negative way all the time.

1:20:32And then I suppose, so I wouldn't really understand it massively, but then after we died and then you'd hear things, your kind of emotion would go from sadness to anger. And then now having Levin, I think to myself, God, if anyone treated her like that, it was ever that way to her. Yeah, I would hate that. And I wouldn't allow it. I would never allow anyone to do that. I mean, I know your kids get older. Like Adam said earlier, you can't wrap them in cotton wool. But I can teach her her self-worth and I can teach her that she should never be treated like that. I can teach her what's wrong and right.

1:21:12Did your mum ever meet anyone else? She did, yeah. She met somebody else. I had the most amazing stepfather who sadly passed away last year. But they were together 35 years. And I'm very grateful for him because he was a true man and he treated her very well. and he, yeah, gave her everything in life she needed. She obviously, she now is without him. Obviously, she lost her life partner, which was during the pregnancy of Levin as well, which was not. Yeah, I just told them a couple of weeks before. I will say that, you know, thank goodness for Jamie because he, you know, if Levin ends up, you know, like Jamie, you know, in any way in terms of how he cares for his parent, like that would be incredible because I've never seen anybody probably look after their mum the way that he does.

1:21:58It's so special and it kind of shows what special person he is really and I'm thankful that Levin has that in her life as well. But, yeah, she's with us quite a lot because, you know, we make a part of her life and stuff. But thank God because I can't imagine how lonely it would be otherwise, you know, so, yeah. That's really beautiful. That makes me really emotional listening to that. Adam. Gosh. I think mine would probably be to my nan and granddad because they were the closest to parents I had in my life and they're both not here now. My nan died during COVID and my granddad died late last year, sort of November last year.

1:22:40And I think I had conversations with both of them about wanting to be a dad and becoming a parent and they knew how much that meant to me. So to sort of achieve that is really special. And my granddad in particular, you know, He was here to see the announcement and me tell him. And despite being 89, he completely understood and was thrilled. And he didn't make it in time to meet Levin, which was really sad. So I think I would just say to him how amazing that is. We got to live this dream and how amazing Levin is. And I know how much he would have loved her and how special that would have been.

1:23:17So I think that would probably be mine. Yeah, a bit emotional, but yeah. You're still crying, Jesus. This is what leaven's done to you. The amount of times that your eyes have gone and have been like, hold it together. This time last year, this would not have happened. Really? I think it's also because I've slowed down a lot in life. So since probably expecting leaven, I have certain things become less important and I've kind of slowed down a little bit and you start to really take the time to realise what is important. I think it's made me think deeper about things and just feel things a bit more.

1:23:50Whereas I went through 10 years, obviously, of In The Star, where I just didn't feel things. Because you're so busy as well. You're constantly going. You don't have the time. It's almost like an inconvenience to have to feel. Just keep going. So then you not stop. Obviously, I've still got businesses now and I've started a new fashion brand and stuff. But I've got more time to sort of, yeah, feel things more. So I think that's what's changed. But I also think as well, like Levin has taught him a whole new version of love that he's never felt before in himself. Like I've never questioned Adam's love for me ever.

1:24:19I know that he loves me but when you have a child it's a different type of love and my mum used to explain that to me and my family would but I don't think he's ever had that and yeah I don't know I think that it just unlocks a new emotion inside of you that you've never had before I think it truly unlocks as well where I didn't have good parents and I don't have that relationship with them it unlocks this I mean I'm sure it's for everyone anyway but this fierce love where I just feel like I'm gonna make sure that you I'm gonna make sure that you have the parents that I needed if that makes sense like that that's something that's just really in me and I think as well I worried for I worried for a number of years you know if my mum and dad are like this what will I be like as a parent will I will I you know I don't know how I'm gonna be sort of thing so but I know I know she's only five months but I know I know what sort of parent I am and I know that we are both great parents we end the podcast with you completing three sentences the first one is being a dad means um being a dad to me means unconditional love um i think yeah unconditional love making sure that my child leaven you know feels loved supported protected um and i never ever ever has to question coming home that her two dads are there for her and love her that to me is is is what being a dad is yeah um yeah i was probably going to say something similar but just also like the security aspect of it i just always wanted to feel secure i don't you know i think it's it's a tough gig at the minute you know being a woman in society that we're in i want her to i want her to grow up and know that she's we've always got her back and we'll always we'll always be there for her but also as well she has that security in us as her dads we will always look after her um but I guess yeah being a dad for me really is protection since having a child I have slept less um since having a child I have I've learned a lot more about Adam which I think is important I think a lot of the time when people have children the focus obviously the child's the most important thing and the focus is always on the kids but I think sometimes you reflect back at the person it makes you and they're a person I can see that's made him.

1:26:41Yeah, I think, you know, since having a child, I've seen a really different side to Adam that's, you know, made me fall off with him all over again, which sounds really cheesy and I'm going to smash my face through this table. Because I absolutely hate that I just said that. But it's true. I think that, you know, sometimes the focus is just hugely on baby at all times and I think it's really important for parents to take a second to look back at how it's affected them as well and, you know, yeah. It's not all about her. it is but it's not um i think i have touched on it anyway but i have learned to sort of slow down um and enjoy i would say little moments if that makes sense like you know before i would be straight on my phone rushing out the door you know don't want to be late for me and straight you know whereas now i'm like i'm lucky we're fortunate that we we i do my own businesses and i can adjust time a little bit but i kind of slowed a little bit and prioritized our family and just taking time to enjoy those little moments.

1:27:36And finally, I'm happy when? I would say I'm happy when. I'm quite an introvert, so I just love being at home, really. And so I would say I'm happy when I'm just chilled, mainly the three of us. Don't get me wrong, anyone who's listening, love everyone around us, family friends. I love the caveat. I know I'm such a caveat person. Yeah, you are. I do love it when it's just us three and the little things. Sometimes we'll just put her in bed with us in the morning and we just chill there for a couple of hours sometimes because it's so sweet and lovely. So I think for me, when we're just at home and chilled, just us being a family is one of the happiest.

1:28:15Yeah, it's the same. I'm happiest when we're in our bubble together. I think it's so special. And we're still very much in that bubble. Five months on, she's just the light of our lives. We just love her. and when the three of us are together, you know, even like Adam says, like sometimes we'll just put her in bed and we'll chill and sometimes we just sit and stare at her. But it's like a special moment because you're just there together and then you'll come out of it and be like, oh, that was really, really nice. I don't understand how, like I say, those moments, like I don't understand how my heart is going to cope with those moments where she says, Dada for the first.

1:28:49Like I don't, I don't understand it because like now I'm like, how, I feel like I'm going to burst into a million pieces. Do you know what I mean? It's like a weird, I can't explain it. I just don't know how I'm going to cope with it. I just love how emotional you are. I know. And how it seems like it's a world away from what you were a year ago. Yeah, no, and it really is. It is, yeah, it really is. Thank you both so much for coming on. No, thank you. Thanks for having us. And also as well, yeah, thanks for giving us a platform to be able to speak about, you know, the petition and things like that.

1:29:17Because there's a lot of people that wouldn't do that. So thank you. We appreciate it. We are here for all parents. We all just want to do the best. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you.

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