From addiction to fatherhood: Jason Donovan on the letter that changed his life

0:00You've been doing this podcast for how long? Eight years. Wow. Yeah. Fuck, that's insane, man. Yeah, yeah. That's cool. It's great. It's amazing. Yeah. Right, we are ready to crack on. Are you ready? Yeah, yeah, of course. You need to get back home and... No, no, no. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's guest is an actor and a singer who I grew up with watching on my TV in Neighbours. It was honestly the highlight of every single day. I'm going to admit this now. I did have a little picture of him by my bed. That makes me feel warm. Warm? Encouraged.

0:41I'm on the right side of the table here. He's also the father of three children, adults really, two of them are adults. Today's guest is Jason Donovan. Hello. Lovely to meet you. Lovely to meet you. Have we met before? Yes, when you've worked with Carrie. Well, was that at War of the Worlds? Yeah, War of the Worlds thing, yeah. Yes. Okay, I remember that. Yes, don't you worry. I mean, you know, lots of people coming in and out. But our paths have crossed. Yes. And we've got a lot of friends in common. Yes, we do. The Willises and everyone like that. Yes. But yes, I did have a little picture of you on my wall.

1:18We had a Kylie and a Jason. Okay. And me and my sister used to share a room. And we used to trade our frames. So it wasn't even like a crush thing. It was a we love these two people thing. Sure. Well, I think, I mean, I think that, you know, Neighbours probably sort of transcended crush. It became just like a sort of friendship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like a sort of a friendship rather than just sort of a pop obsession. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? That was probably a bit later on with songs and stuff like that. But, yeah, wow. Wow. Can I ask how old you are? 40. 40. So that's about right.

1:54Yeah. You would have been young. Yeah. You would have been very young. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you were a big part of my childhood, Jason. Thank you very, very much. I'm happy to be a part of many people's childhoods and neighbours has been a gift for me. Yeah. It's an absolute gift and something to celebrate and be proud of. Yeah, absolutely. I'm very proud of it. Even the mullet, the double denim. Well, it's back now. Double denim is back. Big time, yeah. I reckon an image of you back then is probably flowing around Pinterest as kind of like a look that people want to recreate. A benchmark. I think my son, if I recall a story, was in double maths he was doing at school and the teacher pulled him over towards the end of the class and I need to speak to you, Zach.

2:48And I think Zach at the time was wearing two shades of denim And he said, I just want you to know that your father was one of the originators of double denim. And that was sort of, I just moved on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was your childhood like? Well, I mean, I grew up with my dad. I'm sure you've probably read about that. My parents split when I was probably five. I mean, I can't really recall the time. My father got custody of me in probably 1972, 73, which was quite unique in Australia at the time. Can you remember times as a family before that? Sort of vague, very vague. Sort of images, not times.

3:39And of course photographs do prompt a lot because also my family, my dad and my mother were in the public eye. And in fact, my dad and my mum appeared in television shows together, ironically. So there are those pictures. In fact, sometimes I get fans who just sort of ceremoniously give me, you know, a copy of TV Week Australia with a picture of my dad and my mum on it. Yeah, I mean, look, there's a lot of, there's always two sides to every story. I can't really recall why I ended up with my dad other than I was very close to my father. I mean, it's quite unique really because also sons and mothers tend to be close.

4:31But yeah, you know, I had a happy childhood. I mean, you know, psychologists probably might like to look at it a different way if they sort of analyze certain periods in my life. and, you know, what's gone right and wrong. But, you know, I had love. My dad was a great father. We were a great team. We were best buddies, really. And I didn't see my mum a lot. She got remarried. She had three other girls. We have a relationship now, which is great. But, you know, my dad also had relationships, particularly my stepmother, who I consider probably, you know, the biggest part of my life other than my father, a lady called Marlene Donovan.

5:21They've subsequently split up. So but they have a son and he was part of my life, my brother Paul. And so, yeah, Miles, as I call her, came along sort of when I was about 12 or 13. And I'm still very, very close to her. Yeah. So I think psychologists could pick it apart and say lots of stuff about it. But actually, if you feel like you had a home that was loving, safe and gave you stability, then you're the one who's lived it. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure I recall many times when I would question why my parents had split up and when probably my mother was returning. I guess that's just a natural optic of what had happened to me.

6:10But I don't look back now. I guess what it does do is galvanise the importance of my own relationships and my own marriage. and as perfect and sometimes imperfect as that can be. You know that my children probably don't go through, well not don't go through that, that's probably not the right word, that they are as loved and as secure because as you and I both know, kids love security and continuity and to be settled. You know, it's a really important part. And Ange, my wife, is an incredible, absolutely incredible mother. Yeah. Like an incredible mother. Yeah. I mean, you know, amazing mother.

6:59We all grow up with ideas, though, of, you know, what we're going to be like as a parent, you know, and how, you know, we can set out with all good intentions, kind of go, I'm going to give them this, and it's all going to be like this, and it's all going to be rosy. But actually, as you go through life and realise that it does get complicated, marriages are complicated, like life is complicated, and we can't protect kids from everything. And, you know, have you looked back at your childhood differently now that you are an adult yourself and have kids? I guess I'm going to be quite linear about this.

7:34I mean, a lot has happened to me over my childhood, over my adulthood. And, you know, a lot of my dreams came true and my passions. Again, if you look at it psychologically, particularly in the 90s for me was a pretty sort of tough, rebellious, self-centered, selfish period. But every action has a reaction. And when success comes to you like it did to me, you have to navigate. And there's no textbook as to how you do that. My dad, you know, the only probably thing, dad loved to drink. You know, he was never an alcoholic, but he was a nutter and still is. It's crazy. I mean, he's just about to turn 90.

8:27And I love my dad. But for me, I tended to avoid alcohol for a long time. You didn't drink until you were 30? Yeah, yeah. Well done. I didn't drink. And I love a drink now. Really? Yeah. Oh, yeah. But I don't do the weed and all the other sort of stuff that I used to sort of find an escape. I mean, it must have been so hard, though. You know, I said I had your picture on my wall. It must have been so hard being that sort of golden boy that everyone kind of looked at in a certain way. Like you've used the word rebel. Did you feel like you wanted to have a little release by doing the drugs that you did?

9:07Or did you feel like it was stepping away from that? Or did you just feel like part of you was a bit of softest drugs? Yeah, a bit of a bender. And I had worked so hard for a long period of time. Yeah. But I think, you know, and as you know and you're in this world, is that sometimes the images that we create or are created for us aren't necessarily the ones that we think we wear the suit for, i .e., you know, a loincloth and a white pair of white fluffy socks and a Joseph coat. You know, I mean, you know, give me a break. Probably one of the greatest opportunities in my entire life. But I just, I didn't see myself as Peter Pan.

9:47It was after that. Which is also interesting because you think being the lead in a West End run like that, where there's actually a lot going on in the West End. So it's surprising that you didn't rebel during that period. It was kind of after it that you... Well, you know, I've always had a great work ethic and that comes from my dad. And so work was work and play was play. The idea of going on stage, hungover, or anything like that. That's the problem with me. You know, I'm sort of, you know, I'm quite all or nothing. Do you know what I mean? And even now, you know, I can switch off very disciplined and I can, you know, have a great Saturday afternoon, you know, on the rosé and, you know.

10:31But I think going back to your question about love and looking back on my childhood, I mean, there's that famous, You've probably seen an internet thing with Jim Carrey and Tom Hanks, with actors where they're all sitting around and they're sort of saying, you know, as actors and as performers, we do this because we want to be loved. You know, I don't know whether I quite see it that way, but, you know, maybe deep down there is that aspect to what I do as a job that makes me feel more accepted or more worthy of. But I can't quite join the dots between the past and now. Really? No, I can't. And I don't have therapy.

11:30I've never really felt. I have had moments of therapy, but I just sort of dwindle off. I don't have a consistent, so I've never probably found someone. It's also quite difficult to find people. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, you can trust. I don't quite know where I'd start. There's been moments of that, and then great, or it's been. Also, you've been doing this job a long time, and I think sometimes when we give answers, What I have found in therapy is that we know how to give things over or answer questions in a way that is palatable and nice. And so therefore it's really hard to kind of go, no, but this is actually me and it's messy.

12:08And someone said to me once that when you go to therapy, you have to say the thing. And I find it really hard to say the thing. What's the thing? Oh, for me, it's all sorts of, can't go on in now, David. Come on. Can't say it to my therapist. But, you know, it's that thing. I mean, you know, the thing. But, yeah, saying the thing that you're holding that's stopping you from, you know, letting go of the shit that we're all carrying or that we carry. I mean, the irony is that I found having spent 40 years of my life talking about my life is almost therapy. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Hence now.

12:50Do you know what I mean? The problem is those two cameras are on and the problem is it's the microphone. So that comes out with a scorecard sometimes. Yeah. And they're the sort of things that probably I've been bruised with, particularly, you know, post-neighbours. Yeah. You know, particularly trying to grow as a man and as a boy and trying to find my place. How do you measure success? What is success? What does it really mean? You know? How many bedrooms? in an effing house do you need? Yeah, yeah. Really. Yeah. It's sort of, it's very complex, you know. But if you're asking me honestly, I've never felt not loved.

13:35Yeah. Never. So I've always felt myself grateful. I come from a family that aren't deluded with illusions of grandeur. Always. Well, so your parents were jobbing actors, they were working actors, so you had that. You knew what that world was. You didn't go into it kind of going, I'm going to do this and I'm going to land a job in Neighbours and be really famous. No. You know what I mean? You saw what that life actually was. Correct. And I remember my dad once, you know, pulling me in the car and sitting me down and he just got, you know, axed from a TV show that he was working on. Not that he was doing bad in the show, I just think probably either the show was coming to an end or they wanted a cast change.

14:17And, you know, he was, I remember him going, I don't know what we're going to, you know, do next. You know, I don't know what I'm going to do next. So I've always, and I've been surrounded by actors, you know, who are quite, can be quite narcissistic, negative, you know, and particularly, you know, if they haven't had success. So, you know, I've never taken any of it for granted. and also I would also say maybe the bit of the Aussie in me, the meritocratic sort of guy has been, you know, a good thing to not lose touch with. And one other thing. Yes. Physical fitness. You know, I'm such an avid.

15:10I don't see too many people with mental health. And I'm not saying, you know, I'm sure there are many. But physical fitness and mental health go hand in hand. And even through the period in my life where, you know, I was selfish in the 90s and I was rebelling and doing drugs and, you know, and sort of falling off a cliff in my own head and having a good time, I thought. I still kept fit. But you were working throughout that as well. I was working. So that buzz would always sort of just knock at my door and remind me. When you were, because in the 90s you were having an amazing time, did you ever look to the future and think about children?

15:58No. Really? No. No. I was too, too, I mean, to be honest with you, I can't completely remember, but, you know, on the journey I was on, I think it would have been the last thing on my mind. And when you met your wife, did that come up at all in those early conversations? I can't quite remember. But if you know the history of Ange and I, we were together. Then we broke up and then she, and I'm sure she won't mind me saying it because it's the truth is that she was pregnant. but we weren't together and she said I wanted to, you know, I wanted to have Gemma as it is and, you know, I probably wasn't ready for it but I said I'm not going to be half a parent and, you know, I will support you.

16:55And the irony is it sort of turned not just myself around and not just my relationship with Gemma, but turned around my relationship with Ange. Can you remember when Ange told you that she was pregnant, what your reaction was? She wrote me a letter. Yeah, analog. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, that changed my life. And she's, you know, an incredible human being and my best friend. And, yeah, Gemma came along and she was right, you know. But you've been really honest about the fact that it wasn't like it was an overnight change of your behaviour. No, it wasn't. Anything like that. It wasn't.

17:40Even for the first year of, you know, or the first little time of, you know, Gemma being born. I was still on a bit of a bender. Yeah. Well, look, I think I've listened to a lot of people about recovery and addiction. And I don't know whether, I mean, mine was an addiction, but it was probably more binge than anything, was that you've got to want to change. That's the bottom line. And, you know, I had a get out clause. And the get out clause was keep going down the road I was. Or here is your, this gift with Gemma that made me sort of realize this was the moment to, you know, move on. And, you know, I don't even celebrate 20 years of, you know, not, you know.

18:28I don't, you know, I don't need to. I don't know why. I don't know. I don't go out and go, oh, God, I really miss, you know. Do you think it was tied up with that time as well? Yeah, probably. When life looked very, very different. And actually once the kids came along, once you'd leaned into it and kind of, you know, accepted that this was going on and stuff, It's that actually the world has changed. You've got a different level of responsibility. You can reflect on that time, but it doesn't mean you want to be in that time. Yeah, exactly. And I think I, to my complete detriment of character, not detriment, not even regret, was I thought I was sort of being cool, you know.

19:13It was terrible. As I said to you, you know, I had this sort of Peter Pan image. And I felt that by, you know, going out and going to Browns or China White or - China White? Oh, God. You remember these names, you know, Tramp or wherever it might have been, you know, or Saratoga in Melbourne or, you know, the clubs in Sydney or Bondi or whatever it is. What I did have to do was change my dress book. Really? You know, what I sort of did do was move out of my neighbourhood and try and start a bit of a different life, try and snooker that lifestyle. Was that scary to do? Not really. No. I don't miss that.

20:00Also, just at that time. I don't miss that. Also, because I guess the other thing for me was I had such a, you know, a wonderful foundation in my house. And that's a metaphor for what I'd done with my... I'd had a passion in my career. I still wanted to act. I still want to sing. I still wanted to be creative. I still had lots of time to give. You know, I've seen some people where, you know, they get married young and they have kids young and then by 35, they're like, you know, off they go. And by then you're, you know, you're popping aspirins to make sure the blood thins, you know, to sort of, you know.

20:42So I figure even though, you know, no life is perfect, maybe in a way it changed the early 30s for me at the right time. I also gave up smoking, like, as in cigarettes as well. So I haven't smoked cigarettes for God. I wonder if part of it is when you're living that life, when you're going to China White's and, you know, getting through straight away, getting a table, all that stuff, you know, You welcome in a lot of people who just are there to get stuff from you. None of it's very real. It's very in the moment, let's have a good time-esque. That's what that is. But actually, Ange gave you something very different, very real.

21:26I think when life comes in like that, it's a very different thing that's very tangible and it's a very different future. Stable? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was very attracted to that and to her and to her strength and her character. And I think maybe a woman or a human being or someone who was loyal, you know, and not thinking of themselves and not in that world, you know. Even though at the time that frustrated me a lot because a lot of – I still – look, every nightclub has good and bad. I'm sorry, it does. Every bar has good and bad. Every football match has good and bad, you know. So there's still some people I speak to from that period and still some wonderful characters and friends of mine from that period.

22:21But there's also a lot of people that probably were transient, were. The good thing about being an actor is you sort of study psychology in a way. You study people, you know. And I always had one eye on that, you know. Always, always had one eye on that. Can you remember meeting Gemma for the first time? Oh, when she came out. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember what it was like? Well, I mean, overwhelming, you know, overwhelming, emotional. And I think more for me was because still there was fractures there at that time. And still I was still sorting myself out. Yeah. More to me was putting her in the...

23:09Baby carrier? Yeah. Not that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The papoose. The papoose. Weird. It's weird. And walking around my neighbourhood with her. Yeah. And taking her because, again, Ange and I weren't together. She was living not far around in a flat, not far from where I was at the time. But having that responsibility and owning that person, and that's probably when it really started to kick in. Yeah. And taking Gemma home with me and having to change her, not with Ange around or just on my own and going, okay, this is the wake-up call. Yeah. This is the sunshine, the brightness. Yeah, this is the daylight that I needed to see.

24:10I love that. Yeah. And there's not a massive gap between Gemma and Zach? No, Irish twins. I love this saying so much I'm sure it's problematic for some people but essentially they were born within a year yeah within a year so you can see it didn't take long for me to wake up it didn't take long for me to sort of wake up and I think maybe the thought of I'll be honest as well and I hope Ange doesn't mind me saying is that the thought of maybe Gemma being fathered by someone else

24:47sort of probably, you know, that, you know, and not saying that that's right or wrong, but I felt, you know, do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do know what you mean. And I think we can go back to your childhood at this point because actually you know how important those roles can be with your step-mum. But it is that thing of letting other people into those roles And, you know, as the biological father to know that there's another man stepping in to be a stepdad, but you have no control over that. Yeah. It's, you know, I mean, yeah, there is probably a big connection. But I go back to the fact of I can't be half a parent.

25:32It's just not in my DNA. You know, it's sort of, yeah, I just can't be. And I made that clear decision. You know, and with Zach, you know, moving out of home. And then Ange and I sort of initially didn't live together. We still lived separately. And then we did start living together. And that's when we changed neighbourhoods. And that didn't work. So I moved, quickly moved, we quickly moved back. But I spent a bit of time going to Australia doing some jobs there. I did a job for the ABC, a drama series for two years, and that was good for us as parents and my family in Australia and the kids. It's difficult, as you know, with kids to sort of travel.

26:25I always envisaged them being schooled in London, and they are UK kids. I mean, both of them have spent time in Australia, but they've always sort of come back, you know, the West London kids. Once they get to a certain age, isn't it, really, they're a bit more tied down. That's yet to come for you. Well, no, but I mean, we think like school, you know, suddenly they've got a place that they need to be. Well, stability, you know, and kids need stability, you know. Yeah. Fullstop.com.

27:07For a lot of people, for a lot of men, I would say that when they become dads, maybe they don't quite know what their role is or where they fit. Whereas your dad had custody of you. It was mostly you and your dad. So do you feel like you knew already what that role was? You knew how to have a friend as a dad. Did that stuff impact? Well, I was an only child. So there you are. An only child without your mum being around. So there's an instant, you know, and dad, God bless him, would make the worst sandwiches for school. They were terrible. How could he get a sandwich? You know, it was like literally it was bread that wasn't fresh some days.

27:54And, you know, not that his heart wasn't in the right place, but he was probably trying to navigate, you know, I mean, there's no textbook for being a dad. And there's a lot of pressures, obviously, women go through and there's a lot of pressures fathers go through responsibly and the world is changing in equality between all sexes, which is a great thing. But, you know, there's still traditional elements of stuff that working-wise and, you know, making sure that, you know, I think that partners always look for in any other partner some form of A-stability and knowing that you're going to care for the unit in whatever way that entails.

28:46And that might be the woman going out to work, that might be the male going out to work, that might be a bit of both. So, yeah, I'm still trying to navigate what being a father is, but I think lead by example and openness about conversations. You know, I've always said with the kids, if they want to experiment with stuff, bring it home. Let's go. Really? Yeah. I've got, you know, I've had that on. I've had that snipped and tucked in a, you know, Newsbeat, Radio 1, in an interview I did once or, you know, and then once I said that, I think on Lorraine or something, and Jeremy Vine was debating it on at 12, I swear to you.

29:34And my wife is like, I don't believe that we're watching Jason Donovan as said on, you know, but will you tell me what else am I? Well, and also you can't be naive to the fact that that stuff is out there and you've done it. So you can't be hypocritical towards your kids to kind of go, don't do it. You know, all of us, we can't kind of go learn by my mistakes. We all only ever learn by our own. And demystify any element of what that... I mean, this is only one thing. Have you spoken to them now about it, now that they're older? Drugs? Yeah. Not really, but they don't... They're a different generation now.

30:17They are. Very clean. Yeah, they are. They are. Yeah. They are. In fact, I was talking to someone on holiday that they were saying that alcohol consumption in this particular restaurant in Spone that we go to is down considerably. Big problem, they're probably saying because social media. And social media, if you're getting, you know, if you've had too much, can put you on the thing, tagging someone and bang, there you go. I mean, when I was going out, I used to have one of those cameras that you had to wind up. You'd only get like 24 cameras in a film, 24 pictures in a film. so once they were done, they were done and that was the only record of the night Time had gone Exactly, whereas now I do and I can remember those nights being like I would neck back as much as possible all of us would the point of the night was to get wasted whereas now I think there is a responsibility of what happens during that time and who might take a photo, who might take a video where is that going and I think people are a little bit more aware It is a different landscape out there.

31:23But, you know, always an honest conversation around the kitchen table when people aren't looking at their phones. That's another aspect. Fast forward, after 10 years you decide to go again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was fun. What was it like this time around? Because obviously you know what that's like. You've got a bit of experience by this point. and then Molly comes to the world. Yeah. And you've got a considerable gap. Well, I've always thought there's never a right time for children, is there? There's never a right time. And I've always also said timing in life is everything. You know, I'm not a big believer in luck because I think you create your own luck in life.

32:05Ange was pretty excited about the prospect of that. You know, why not? And that's what we did. Yeah. You know, we, yeah. Is she 14 now? She is. So even then, like, Molly's coming through teenager soon. You're going to be at a point where. Yes. Everyone's gone. Yeah. Yeah. We're at the stage of when you downsize. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Well, not really at that stage, but. Looking a bit sad. Not quite. Yeah. There's a lot of big decisions in that point, you know. And also it's a real test on relationships because, you know, everything really changes a lot. Well, because the focus that has been there the whole time of the kids for decades, suddenly that's not there anymore and it's you two again.

32:53It is. And that is an interesting thing, I think, you know. But we're not quite at that point. Molly is, I think she's got four years left of school. She's great. It's a joy. It's a joy. How is it? Lucky me. Lucky us. Yeah. Isn't that amazing? Lucky us. And also to invigorate the other two, who are 25 and 24, you know, it keeps everyone on their toes and involved. Yeah. And, yeah, because the other two don't live at home anymore. How was that saying goodbye to them? Easy. See you later. Leave your key behind. Easy. It cost me a bit. But it wasn't difficult because they come back home, you know, and also they need their independence and they can be messy too and I'm a little bit like twitchy when it comes to my space.

33:58But I think their independence is really, really important. And Gemma has lived in Australia for three years with neighbours. Zach was there just doing some work for 18 months. He's now back here. But, yeah, they come home and one of the great joys is, you know, a lunch, a Sunday lunch or going out to dinner and, yeah. Does parenthood feel different with Molly? Do you feel like you're able to lean into it a little bit more, that you're using the knowledge that you wish you had before now? I think, gee, I'm a different person. Yeah. That's what I think, if I'm going to be honest with you. I'm probably, it's only really this year that I've sort of, I'm starting to think like you've got to start slowing down a little bit.

34:57You know, you've got to start enjoying this time because otherwise you're just out there touring and traveling and doing shows. And as you know, with your husband and your friends and your family is that sort of you don't really create work from sitting in central London or, you know, or inside the M25. It has to be. You have to go out. And, you know, for my job, which is theatre, eight shows a week, you know, I can be sitting in Manchester for two weeks and then moving on to Leeds and then doing it. And that's been very good to me. I'm very grateful for that. And it's also put the kids through great education, which I think is imperative.

35:40If there's anything I can do is educate them to make good choices in their lives. And then if they don't make the right choices, I'll be there to help them get through the ones that aren't. But I've tried to do my best, as is Ange. Also, I'm 57. I've sort of tried to, you know, work when I can to build up some sort of, I've used that word, foundation, so that maybe, you know, I can sit back a little bit more. And also then enjoy the tours you do to you because you're going on tour next year. I'm going on tour next year, yeah. We're doing a bunch of like 14, 17 dates. We had a great tour this year, doing fine.

36:22We didn't get to do some cities, so we're going to go back to the ones we didn't do. That's, I think, Feb, March. And that's a very different gig, isn't it, to going on tour with a musical for a year? That's a very different ask to be away from home Monday to Saturday. Saturday, yes. Because I've done it. As your sister-in-law. And Carrie's been doing it for 10 months. I could not do a 10-month tour. I just simply couldn't do it. And I don't know whether it's because we've got three boys at home that are just feral and I'm just so aware of the weight that then Tom has to carry. I'm always like 12 weeks is my...

37:05Have you done a 12-weeker? Yeah, yeah, I have. But then I will drive so that I can leave last thing on a Tuesday. So basically push it so I leave about lunchtime on a Tuesday and I try and drive home on the Saturday night. And what was the last show you did? Going on the train. So this started this year. Right. And I've loved it. Absolutely loved it. And how was that? Yeah, just absolutely loved it. And you're sitting in a hotel room during the day? Well, yeah, I have gone down the Airbnb route because I feel like being, I don't know, I made some bad choices in terms of where I stayed. Right. And I ended up just going to these single rooms and just feeling so sad and having that deep feeling of I should be home with my kids.

37:47You know what I mean? There's that horrible feeling of what are you doing? It's filling the – the show's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You love that. But from 5 o 'clock till 10 o 'clock. Yeah. And the great news is you come home and you have a cup of tea and you go to bed and you feel fresh and you're not having a glass of wine at night. It's a wonderful sort of – And you can sleep. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. But it's the day. Yeah. Wandering around cities. You know, Marks and Spencers and Sainsbury's and Waitrose and Wagamamas. You know, every single Wagamama's across the country. It's terrible. Yeah.

38:24Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pad Thai with extra prawn peas. And the green juice. The flip side of that is then when you do something in town, which is amazing because you sleep in your own bed. Amazing. But then you've got an hour and a half maybe commute either side and then you've still got to wake up at six with the kids. So it's a very different game then that you're juggling. I know exactly that scenario, literally backwards. I think that's why I quite like musicals. Yeah. Because you come alive, do you know what I mean? It's quite bright and fun. I've got to say, doing Going on the Train, which is obviously really quite harrowing and dark, I flipping loved that.

39:08I loved getting, I felt like, you know, we were talking about therapy earlier. I feel like doing that play was my therapy. It helped me with grief. It helped me just work through so much that was just there, locked in. I could walk out a stage door with a bounce. Literally, I bounced out every night. I don't know the piece. She basically is. She's an alcoholic. Right. And she's fixated with this couple. Her husband's left her for another woman who he's had a baby with. She's an alcoholic, lost her job. She's fixated with this couple. The woman goes missing and she has these blackouts and she knows that she knows something, but she doesn't quite know what.

39:47And so she tries to work out what's happened to her. So it's quite dark and she's got this ex who is quite, yeah, just not very good relationships in her life. So it's just her trying to piece everything together. But just a lot to carry every night. And yeah, I just loved it. Loved working through the shit, basically. And would you do, I mean, sorry to reverse the roles here, but would you do consecutive weeks? Yeah. You would. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Jeez. Yeah. You don't do like a three, one off. No. Two on. No. One off. Yeah, that's how I map mine now. Really, that's nice. Yeah, I try and always do like, never do more than three, then a week at home, then, yeah.

40:34It's hard, isn't it? Because you just think there's a whole industry of people. and touring productions I just don't think get the credit that they deserve. No, they don't. But when you've got parents within that who are trying to navigate that juggle, be a present parent but also having to go on, that's how you're providing. You're providing before your family by going on this tour. But it's the juggle of trying to be home and trying to be there but also going out and doing your job. So it's a really hard thing to navigate. And good for you, you know, and Tom should be at home working his butt off.

41:08I mean, generally, it's a January, February, March, April thing where Tom's a little bit quieter, so I get to slip out of the house. Okay, okay. And he's off on tour at the moment. He's off on tour now, yeah. But whereas, so I would do, this is getting heavily into my life and that's fine. That's okay. I'm sure the audience want to know this as well. I would do a Tuesday to Saturday. So in my head, I'm like, I'm not home for four nights. Okay. He has, I think he's got a, Yeah, so he's got a 37-day away. So he's away for two months, but 37 days of that are consecutively away. Right. That's quite hard.

41:44It is, isn't it? Well, sometimes it would be quite good. Get into my own rhythm. See, that's what, you know, I come home and I'm sure half the house, well, even though it's a quarter of the house now, are actually looking forward to me leaving again. because, you know, it's also, I'm probably sure you found as well, you become a bit of a stranger in your own home when you've been away. Yeah. But, you know, I think work, you know, and kids is a good thing too, you know, showing the split role between you guys and that is a really important thing for their education. Yeah, I want them to see mum going out and doing, you know.

42:23Yeah, sure. So, okay, so you're looking at downsizing. Are you going to downsize and stay in London? Eventually. Yeah, I think so. Because do you have to factor in? Have you talked about how you do that and whether you have to factor in where all the kids are? Or would you and Anne just go, you know what, we've always wanted to live in court? We have the luxury of lots of options in that sense. But certainly downsizing at some point. But, you know, there's a chance that some of those kids might end up coming back home. Yeah. That happens a lot too. and that's something, you know, and lateral living is very difficult to find in sort of central London.

42:59You know, there's always a lot of stairs to climb. So, yeah, I mean, listen, you know, as long as the health is good. It's going to be tough though. When does Gemma's room stop being Gemma's room? Well, there is room there. Is there a room that still has Gemma's leftover stuff there? Oh, well, there's always a bit of Gemma's leftover stuff in our house. Listen, there is room for them to come back and I think it's worth sort of sticking with that for a little while yet. See, my mum and dad, I moved out to go to drama school when I was 18 and they separated. So actually I didn't have that home. You know what I mean?

43:44That base. It was mum's house and dad's house. I never had a room in either of them. Right, OK. And it felt very weird not being able to go into a home and just go to the biscuit jar. Do you know what I mean? Like knowing where things are. Sure. But I wonder had that not happened, whether they would have, how I would feel going back to my home. Home, yeah. You know what I mean? How long it would take me not to refer to my childhood home as my home. Yeah. I find living with people very difficult now. Yeah. You know, I mean, having had a family and I've done it a little bit. And as Aussies, they love to come and, you know, the Aussies love to come and sort of say, can we stay with you?

44:24Yeah, I wouldn't imagine, you know, in my situation ever going and living with my dad. I couldn't think of anything worse. Oh, shit. You know, my dad's, you know, my dad's not young now. So, but there was a point, yeah, when I, but I moved out of home very young. Very, very young. I don't know about you. Well, I didn't go back after drama school, so I was 18. Okay, did you do drama school here? Yeah, I went to Rose Bruford. Right, okay, wow. Yeah, then me and Tom moved in together. Right. Yeah, so I've not been home since. Yeah. Well, I've been, yeah. Yeah, ish. If you could write a letter on being a dad, who would it be to and what would you say?

45:08Well, it's probably my kids, you know, or their kids. Or I think the time thing comes into my mind. That thing in Instagram throws at you all that sort of stuff about your, you know, can you remember who your great grandparents are? I can't remember. Do you know what I mean? How small we are in this moment in time and how. But there is an element of photographs and stuff that I have from the past. And I did a Who Do You Think You Are as well. Did you? Yeah. So what would I say? You've just got to be there, embrace friendship and honesty. Yeah, just the sort of themes. I'd also say don't be scared to think you don't know what you're doing because I still haven't worked out what it is.

46:11Stability. I think kids don't need to be taught. They just learn by examples, you know. Kids are listening to everything and, you know, they're always got one ear to a conversation. And we are the product of our parents. We're definitely the product of our parents. School can take so much. I do hear a lot about sometimes I wish the school would do this and that. Maybe the parents need to change as well. Education is important, but it still comes back to your parenting and love. Yeah. Is there anything, now that you've been in this parenting game a long time? I have. Yeah. Is there anything that you found stressful that you, or, you know, things that seem difficult at the time that you look back on and kind of go, oh, with new eyes, with, you know, with experience that you wish you didn't stress over quite so much?

47:18The responsibility, you know, there's physical responsibilities of kids. And I'm not going to shy away from the fact my kids have gone through private education. And the problem with that is that once you get on that, you can't just jump off it, you know. And that comes with going away and being away for 12 weeks, you know, a bit like yourself. And that's a luxury, you know. I'm sure there's a lot of listeners out there that don't have that. That's a decision I've made in my life. that I wanted my children to take. And that has a lot of responsibilities with it. With all the kids they've gone through, every kid has issues at school and stuff, you know, and that's a really difficult thing to navigate because, you know, children can be pretty harsh on each other.

48:08Yeah. And that has applied to all the kids. There's also aspects to their growth and development that as genetics can't change and move and you can't, you know, it all ends up being quite nice in the end. But growth, you know, is tough, man. It's tough. Well, parenthood is about you learn so much of yourself whilst you're parenting. You know, we think we're just parenting our kids and helping them grow up. But actually we learn so much throughout the process about our patients, about, you know, how we cope with different pressures and things like that. And our own childhood, you know, I think it makes us look back at our own childhood and go, oh, this is why I'm getting stressed in this situation because I, you know, whatever that is.

48:57It's interesting, and you're probably not at that stage yet, but, you know, school is a bubble, you know, whether it's private or public school. And, you know, I grew up in a, we call them public schools in Australia, Catholic boys school I went to. You know, everything's quite well contained, even though there's issues at friendships at school and all those sort of things. It's quite a contain. When they leave school, it's really tough. Really? Because you want their dreams to come true. You want their passions to be excelled. And it doesn't matter whether you're, you know, the greatest actor or the best lawyer or, you know, you work on a train or, you know, everyone has dreams.

49:44Yeah. You can only, you can't. In school, they can sort of fulfill those to a certain way. But once, you know, the good news from my perspective is that, as I said, I really feel that the kids have, you know, they're not out there. They're not in trouble with the law. They're not out there doing drugs and they're not going crazy and they have respect for other people. They are characters, you know, and there's a lot to contend with. But it's pretty good. Yeah. It's pretty good. It could be a lot worse. You know, it could be a lot worse. Maybe that's a parenting mantra. Could be a lot worse. Yeah, it could be a lot worse.

50:28And I'm proud of the two older ones, Molly, and Molly, of course, of course Molly, but, you know. Well, the older ones, though, I guess they're in a different realm now, really, you know what I mean? It's kind of like you've had to go through the letting them go to a certain extent as well. So it is that, you know, waving them off. For you it sounds like you threw a party. Waving them off and not feeling sad. But also that enjoyment of kind of going, I've done all I can for this period of intense parenting, but actually the next chapter of it is different. It was very different for me because I just went off.

51:04Yeah. It was really different for me. Yeah. You know, it was really, you know, I mean, Jesus, lucky me. And, you know, and I just landed on my feet and, you know, I was in a relationship and off I went. Yeah. There's still problems, you know, obviously, but, yeah. It's exciting. Exciting times thinking about what your kids are going to do. Yeah, it is, but it's also, you know, it's tough, mate. Yeah. It's tough. It's tough. Because you can't fix everything either. You can't fix it, mate. It doesn't matter, Fletcher, McGlechor. It doesn't matter, mate. Yeah. It doesn't matter. Yeah. It doesn't matter.

51:46It's there. Yeah, there you can facilitate to a certain degree, but then it's up to them to sort of fly or, you know, cruise or surf or not or, yeah. We end the podcast. Stressful. Yeah, I can imagine. We end the podcast with you completing three sentences. The first one is being a dad means. Being a dad means being fulfilled. Full. Mm-hmm. Since having children, I? I'm a better person. And I'm happy when? My kids are happy. I heard you saying, actually, you're only as happy as your unhappiest child. Correct. Completely agree. Correct. You're only as happy as your unhappy child. Yeah. Exactly.

52:38I mean, it's crazy that being a father came into your life at a moment of debauchery or whatever that was, and actually it's changed your path so massively into this, you know, into a very different environment. Do you know, I don't know what's around the corner, mate, either. You know, and, you know, there's a circle of life. I really believe in the circles. The world is round for a reason. And I'm seeing a lot of change in my dad. So that's, you know, and, you know, people, it's a terrible thing to say, but passing on and the baton being passed on and your sort of natural selection, natural progression, you know, that's a whole other conversation.

53:31Maybe that's a different podcast. Well, my dad, he came on the podcast and he's, you know, referenced the fact that with my non-agon, he's at the top of the. What's the non-agon? His mum, my nonna. Right, right. So now that she's died, he's the older one. So now it's that thing of next day will be him. If things go in the natural order or whatever. Well, let's hope it's always that way. Well, yeah, I know it doesn't. That's the other thing that keeps me awake at night. Because we just don't know. We don't know what's going to be going at us. And I've seen lives change. I have seen lives change, as I'm sure you have.

54:06It's, you know, less hope. Natural selection and natural progression has its, yeah. And we all live long, happy lives and spend some great lunches and dinners and more conversations like this. Jason, thank you so much. Cool. That was good. Thank you so much. Thank you. That was great. I enjoyed that.

54:41cup like coffee