Glittering a Turd: Maren Sheldon on Parenting Through Grief and Celebrating Her Twin's Life

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2:39Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum. I cannot wait for you to listen to this week's episode. It's with Mara Sheldon. And there is so much history between me and Mara and I actually feel like I need to give you a proper introduction to her and how we know each other. So back in 2014, I met her wonderful sister, Chris, her twin sister, Chris. And the pair of them set up a charity called Copperfield, a breast cancer awareness charity targeting. It was literally created for young people to get to know their bodies. And the reason for that is that Chris, when she was 22, had symptoms of breast cancer.

3:20Well, symptoms that she knew wasn't quite right for her. And she went to the doctor at 22, was told it was nothing, it was just hormonal, just to go about your day, carry on. And that is what she did. She went travelling to China, came back eight or ten months later, still had the symptoms. It got worse, went back to her GP, told, no, don't worry about it, agree with what I said the first time, what the other doctor said. Definitely hormonal, just carry on living your life. And her mum actually dragged her back up to the doctors. Chris then was referred to a breast cancer clinic. And at 23, Chris was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer.

3:58I think growing up, everyone just assumed we were all told it was something that affected older women. It was always a lump. That is not the case. And they were so angry that they had been left so long that it was stage four now that they decided to make some change. And they made change in the most glorious way. and I think for anyone that doesn't know the origins of Copperfield I think they need to know this because it tells you everything about what the charity is they started by going to festivals and literally face painting different people that were going past they had this tent, people would come in, get glitter put on their faces and then while they were doing that they would talk to people about the signs and symptoms of breast cancer if you're listening to this and go well I don't know the signs and symptoms of breast cancer First of all, you can go to Copperfield, copperfield.org and find out everything in much more detail.

4:46But what I will say is that you are looking for any change in the breast area. Now, when I say breast area, I mean all the way up to your collarbone, into your armpit. You're looking for dimpling, puckering. You're looking for any change with the nipple, whether it's inverted, whether they've changed direction, whether there's discharge. You're looking for thickening, anything really that is not your normal. I met Chris in 2014. she just had this energy that you just wanted to be around. There was just this ease with Chris and Maran has the same thing. They're otherworldly, they're ethereal, they've just got this energy that draws you in and I knew that I would do anything for Chris.

5:27In 2017 I embarked on my first trek for Copperfield with Maran. Maran came along as well. We had met previously, I think I should point this out and maybe this is context for this chat as well because when we did meet, Myron and Chris, who were obsessed with Neighbours, were having a Neighbours-inspired fancy dress party. I was heavily pregnant at the time and I went as Harold Bishop. And that was amazing. And then many years later, the Harold Bishop costume did absolutely come back out. But in 2017, we went to Amman and that Amman trip absolutely changed the course of the following years for me.

6:00I now do five treks a year for Copperfield. I head them up for them and they are the most life-affirming thing ever. Sadly, back in May 24, after 15 years of living with incurable breast cancer, Chris died. Obviously, that has impacted so many of us. And grief is a funny old fish. And I cannot imagine what it is like to be a twin and lose the other half of you. Chris and Myron, they were a united force. So today on the episode, I wanted us to celebrate Chris. Because there's not enough spaces where we can just celebrate Chris. I wanted to celebrate Chris. I wanted to celebrate Myron. What it's like to have a child when your twin is your everything.

6:46And there's going to be this new world that comes in. The joy, the hilarity, the rawness of giving birth with your twin in the room. And maybe her just kind of going, well, that was gross. All of that stuff. The big thing that I do want to talk about is that when Chris was alive, she wrote a book called Glittering a Turd. the publishers they're no longer here which meant that Chris's book was going to go out of print obviously we can't have that happen it's found a new home and to celebrate the fact that it's got a new home there is a foreword from Dawn French and Maren has added extra chapters to the end of the book I listened to the audiobook and what the audiobook gives you is a beautiful insight into Chris's funeral which was a celebration of her life.

7:36It was a living funeral. When the invite came through, the word fun in funeral was massive. In the audiobook, we hear Chris's speech. I cannot tell you how many times I keep listening to that speech because it is, it's beautiful. And I think hearing your friend say, I have loved my life when they're no longer here is something that I treasure continuously. And I know that I have that on repeat in my brain. quite a lot. I have loved my life to just keep me kind of focused and making sure that I am doing the things that actually do give me meaning and purpose and I'm not just getting swept up in whatever life is doing.

8:17It's a real gorgeous conversation of what it is to love, to grieve and to really create something that is advocating for all of the generations to come, that's saving lives on a scale that I don't think they ever would have expected it to have when they first started. Yeah, listen to this and just get swept away in the tale of two sisters, their connection and the way that they conducted themselves in the toughest of times. I didn't write anything down during that time. so to actually have the time to sit and reflect and then put those feelings into words I know I'm going to look back on these words and be so glad that I did I know I am because it was such a precious time in my life such a huge poignant time in my life I guess also the timing of this has worked out so that I've had the time to consider to it's not like immediately after she died I'm starting to write you know it's because those feelings are so raw I'm still processing so much I'm still trying to work out what it is I'm actually feeling um so obviously we had the film came out in the October after she died and I was answering questions about her death within weeks of her dying and I remember thinking oh I don't I know I don't know I just I felt like from week to week I was feeling different things and I was so worried that next week I was going to be thinking something completely different.

9:57It was just the most turbulent time and I don't think there was enough time for me to really consider what it was I was actually going through. So now having had the privilege of time, I feel like I've been able to. But timing is everything. I always think if anyone asked me a question today, my answer would be very different tomorrow. So when it comes to something like grief, it makes complete sense that our answers would absolutely be different. So it just encapsulates what it is that you're feeling at that precise moment. Doesn't mean that it's going to be stuck there forever. Yeah, I know.

10:33And I think that's OK. You know, I think it's OK to throw out this is how I feel today and to then reflect on that and go, maybe I did. but you know wrapped up in that was anger or despair or you know and hormones you know like lots of different pockets of feelings but I hope that what I've written now is perhaps more as broad view of everything that happened around that sort of time for me and a reflection a bit more of a real reflection of how it was yeah can we talk about your childhood Yes, we've come to talk about.

11:16How was your childhood? What was it like being a twin? Being a twin is the best. Just the best. I know she said this, she definitely said this at some point, but she always felt sorry for people that weren't twins. Because being a twin is amazing. It's a superpower. hour you're born with a mate but you're born with someone that always has your back but also brings you back down to earth it's a reassurance it's a dependence it's let's all it's all these things that I don't think I quite realized I had until she was gone um because it was just always there but growing up I'm one of three so I have a big sister as well so she was nearly two when we came along and ruined her life poor micah and she came to the hospital after we were born and looked up at my mum and said which one are we taking because surely we're not having both of these um and yeah and we came along and oh I just I think we just yeah this caused chaos um and you in Germany yeah born in Germany my dad being German and my mum English and yeah I grew up in North Germany beautiful childhood like very wholesome I would say I went to school when we were seven so yeah so we went to kindergarten and there was a lot of play and building dens spending so much time outside, biking everywhere.

12:52Yeah, very idyllic childhood in Germany. And then my parents divorced when we were 10 and my mum wanted to come back to England. So we moved to the Midlands and got thrown into British school life and we felt like such aliens. But you must have spoken English because your mum was English. Well, so our mum always spoke English to us and we understood English and we could speak English, but we always chose to speak German. So we arrived at these little German twins to this junior school and, yeah, I mean, we just looked so odd and sounded odd and really alienated ourselves because we would solely speak German to each other.

13:33But because it felt so weird to not. And I don't remember the day we decided to start speaking English to each other. But we must have done one day because I'm way more fluent in English now than I am German, obviously. And to stop, did you stop talking German to each other? Wow. I know. Yeah. It would be, it's so funny. It must have been a phased thing. I don't remember one day just going, guys, come on, should we just start speaking English? Like a baby who suddenly knows how to walk. They phase out the crawling. They don't just suddenly walk everywhere. It's a gradual thing. So maybe that confidence.

14:10And also it's so weird to kind of go, I know if I have to speak to that person and I'm speaking to them in English, then it might be a bit broken. But to you, why would I speak to you in broken English when I can just talk to you in a way that is comfortable? Yeah, yeah. But I think we probably realised that actually we, people were more inclined to join in our conversation if we were speaking their language. And I don't know, I guess it was just a natural progression of slotting into pretty school life. And yeah, we adopted, one friend adopted us, Faye. she just took us under her wig it's like come on this is how we do things over here but just like the idea of uniform and you know finishing so late in the day we were always home at lunchtime in Germany and having lunch at home and so having lunch at school just all these things that you know when you're little and you start and that's just how it is but suddenly you're like no this is it's very different and I remember being really worried about it and I we struck Chris and I really struggled with it but she more than me Right.

15:10Gosh, she just was, she was such a home girl. She just, she didn't like change. She really didn't like change. And so it was really hard for her to adjust, even though I was there. But I don't know, one day it just felt easier. And then. Was that the general, especially when you were younger, was that the general setup? Were you the one that was the reassuring one? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, between, and especially between the three of us, Micah was a bit more head in the sand, going to deal with it my own way over here. Chris was like I'm so sad I'm losing my shit and I'm like come on guys yeah I think I probably was the more sort of level headed I guess I've always been the more sort of more organised and perhaps see the more serious side of things or yeah the reality of situation a bit more where she was a bit more like come on let's just do it worry about the consequences later yeah I was always called the sensible twin okay how did that sit it doesn't sit well with me but like people call me clipboard I just I love a clipboard I am I think that's just who I am I am an organised person being sensible is a bit boring isn't it or if she was like oh that's fun have a good lucky you hold it together she glitters it Yes.

16:37Yes. Like a seamless obligation. Yeah. Yeah, we worked. We did work really well together. We were very different in a lot of ways, but worked really well together as a team. Did you always know that you wanted to be a mum? No. No. And I always envied those people that didn't. How do you know? How do you know for sure that you want to be a mum? I think when I was younger, I just, like, I loved playing with dolls. I was maternal. I think that's just, I just assumed that I would have children. No, no, that was never an assumption of mine. When we were little, we never talked about growing up and having children.

17:17I think we just thought we'd always be little. We didn't idolise pop stars. We weren't obsessed with, like, boy bands. We were obsessed with... Neighbours. Neighbours. Neighbours. And penguins and polar bears. And we collected things. And we were children until we were, I feel like we developed quite late. Yeah. But I do think that's because of who we were together, you know, because all of that was happening out there. We were sort of this untouchable little force over here doing our own thing and that was fine. Yeah. But did we never talk about, oh, when we grow up and our kids hang out together, that was, we never said those words.

17:57I don't think I ever thought I'm never having kids either. I just, I don't think I even thought about it, if I'm totally honest. The here and now, not the... Yeah, and I guess because Chris was diagnosed when we were 23, that's a really young age, at that point I definitely did not think, I definitely want to have children. Had you already met Graham at that point? Yeah, yeah. I knew it was serious with him. Yeah. We definitely were moving in that sort of very grown-up direction. Yeah. But then this major curveball of my sister's got this terminal secondary cancer diagnosis. um now life is almost like we have to live it immediately and there's this sort of impending expiry date and we need to make the most of every opportunity that comes our way so children were was like no that's not part of my plan right now yeah um certainly but also I was I think I was quite scared of the things coming up that she wasn't going to be part of so we put off getting married we put off getting engaged we put off all these things because I was so scared did you talk about did you and Graham talk about those things and kind of just like not now yeah yeah and I think he was always quite worried to put pressure on me yeah um because my focus was so strongly on my sister and obviously with Copperfield I spent a lot of time away from home I was in London half of my life I sort of led sort of parallel lives in that time and um there wasn't really time to think about getting married and having children we were too busy we had a job to do like we were we were on a mission yeah you did and this mattered more than anything and I needed to be with my twin more than anything children can that's a thing that can happen maybe at one point later on but I was then I did often think about you know if I was to have kids I'd need her to be there I'd need her to be there and it just never the timing of that never felt quite right Right.

20:00But when you are given that sort of expiry date, you know, you know that she's got secondary. You're told that I think 80 percent of people it's two to three years. She lived for 15 years with secondary breast cancer. So at what point within that do you go like our whole ethos here is to live in the now and to not put so much weight on the future? It's the now that's so important. At what point do you kind of go? actually we maybe do have to do some of those things yeah in 2018 um so I think with Chris's disease like there were there were years where she was okay yeah like okay there was cancer going on but almost like you wouldn't know you just wouldn't know and also I just look back on pictures and I think god she was she looked so well for so many years of her life and cool so cool annoyingly effortlessly fucking cool um yeah and so it was quite easy sometimes to almost forget that she had this disease and I think that's exactly how she wanted it to be she wanted everyone to carry on um with their lives and also I guess we had also got the charity up to a point where it was okay for us to not be so fully involved you know we'd we'd got We'd built a lovely team around us who cared so deeply about it.

21:21And at first it was like, oh, this is our baby. And oh, my God, we need this to be huge and amazing and for it to do what we want it to do. And then when it started to do what we wanted to do and wanted it to do, it just is sort of we'd set this ball rolling. And, yeah, when it got to 2017 and I stepped away from the charity, that's when I really started to evaluate my life. and what I still wanted her to do. And at that point, she was well-ish, although at the beginning of 2018, that's when her brain lesions came back and she needed brain treatment. But because that was so successful, and they said, you know, if you carry on getting more brain lesions, we'll keep treating you.

22:06You know, we'd found this amazing team in London that were prepared to treat her brain and things were exciting. And it was targeted therapy rather than whole brain. Yeah, so she could carry on. her life, quite almost like nothing had happened. So, yeah, it got to that 2018 and Graham and I thought we could consider bringing the child into our lives now. Had the wedding happened by this point? Yes, yes. Which was very much a wedding of three people. Yes, my husband married Chris that day too. But he knew that, you know, he knew that in meeting me, he knew at the moment he met my sister a week after meeting me, He was like, oh, what have I done?

22:50But, you know, he never complained. It was never an issue for him. He adored her. So, yeah, she was part of our first dance at our wedding. She helped me organise the whole thing. And I was just so happy that she was there that day. And we have the memories of her there that day. that just felt like such a bonus time, you know. Yeah, so three years after that we decided we'd start to have children. Did you talk to Chris about this at all? No. I was so scared. Were you? What were you scared about? I think because, do you know what, I knew that she never was bothered about having children but I think she thought I felt the same.

23:36So I was really scared to broach it because I didn't want her, I also didn't want her putting me off the idea. I think I felt quite sure about it then that I did. I was so aware of how it would change our lives so dramatically and our relationship and the whole dynamic. Because that twin thing, like you are linked in such a special way, but then to have a child, that's a different link entirely. Yeah, so I was worried. And it took us a little while to fall pregnant. And when I did, my periods are always really irregular. So I found it quite hard to work out when I was ovulating. It was up to becoming pregnant, always really quite erratic.

24:21I didn't have a clue really what was going on with my body in terms of my reproductive system. Then I became pregnant. And I had this feeling. And Chris was in my house at the time. She just celebrated her 10-year cancer anniversary. at the Eden Project in a really spectacular way. I was pregnant that night and I didn't know. Very drunk. Celebrating life and everything. And it was amazing. And, yeah, so she was at my house. I just nipped off to do a pregnancy test. While she was there, I didn't tell her. I don't know why I didn't tell her, but I thought, I just had this feeling. And then it showed that I was pregnant.

25:05And then I did another one and another one. All in the space of like a very short time in my bathroom on my own having a mild panic attack. And then she was upstairs. She often would come to my house to do work. She was just sat on her laptop just typing away. And I slowly walk upstairs. I sit on the sofa. She's like, are you all right? And I just go, I think I'm pregnant. And she literally shuts her laptop. And she goes, fuck off.

25:39and like literally I remember her just shoving her laptop to one side sitting next to me and she goes oh my god are you serious I just we cried and I think there was disbelief but also like the penny dropping of oh my god what's about to occur yeah like all these things and um I just I'm really glad she was the first person I told you know that she was there in that that moment we then went for a walk and I think whilst we were walking she started thinking about all the fun parts of being an auntie I think she'd never allowed herself to go there to those thoughts and it was really lovely to see in front of my eyes what that would look like for her um and she really got quite swept up with me being pregnant and the thought of having a baby around and then when he was there and you know he she just absolutely adored him i can imagine graham coming home that day and you both been like so we've got news i actually told him without her i think she left and sort of winked like and then oh yeah and then he was like she knows of course of course she's our she's with us on this you know she's also a parent now really yeah so how was the pregnancy because I guess in terms of being pregnant as a twin and having your twin go through something like seeing your twin's body grow a human what was that like for both of you I mean I think she quite enjoyed watching me get cankles and like because you know her Her body changed so much in those years that she was going through different treatments and stuff.

27:30So I think she quite enjoyed it. And she loved that the focus wasn't on her all the time now and that she was coming to hospital appointments with me for a change. And she actually really enjoyed the process of all of that and witnessing the changes and learning as well. I remember buying a book and her saying, can I read that? I really, I want to get up to speed with this too. And she wanted to come to like NCT classes with me and stuff. I didn't do any, but, you know, she did. She really wanted to immerse herself in it all. Because I think it was a really good distraction as well from her reality.

28:10That thought that there's a future, you know, there's a life beyond right now, which she didn't often allow herself to think about. I think it was really nice for her to go, well, in nine months, you know, there's going to be this new life that's going to bring new opportunities and new experiences so obviously she was at my birth Well who made this who brought this up, the idea of her being there? How did that come about? I don't think it was a conversation it was just an assumption she was going to be there and I'd obviously discussed how I'd like to give birth I like the idea of a water birth and we talked about her role in in all of that but i think graham was just very okay with it all i don't he'd at no point did he question why she would be there but i actually think he liked that she was going to be there because it took the pressure of him to be the sole person to look after me that day but also i loved to give her that experience because knowing that she was never going to experience that for herself and not necessarily with anyone else you know and it's such an incredible thing to witness yeah I loved that I was able to give her that and she obviously loved it all as well I can remember because we were in the Himalayas at the time on a copper track and I can remember her sending us a video afterwards and her just being like that was mad yeah yeah she looked shell-shocked she did she always joked that she needed some sort of post traumatic stress therapy or something like she was like she just thought it was just the most crazy thing for a body to go through yeah um and to watch well we talk so much about you know partners being in the room um but you know birthing partners and kind of seeing that person that you love going through something and not being able to have no control over and just having to help them through to watch the person who who has been by your side throughout your whole entire life giving birth must just be such a surreal thing to to witness and then be and so beautiful I mean I know that you know she said all the PTSD stuff and all of that but ultimately I think she would have had it any other way no no she often also would say that so often the tables were turned you know I'd be that sort of bystander and have to watch her in pain or go through something that I you know I just I felt so helpless and without little control and being able to support and do anything really except be there and I think she she felt that in that moment although the pain and everything that I was going through was going to lead to something so incredible you know it was almost nice that she could give back in a way she was going to experience that for me yeah no she wouldn't have had it any other way I think when he plopped out in the water and she saw his little face she just that was the most magical moment for her you know I'm really glad that she was there to see it What I love about Herbie and the fact that he is in our lives is that he gave her permission to feel okay about leaving me in a way.

31:47The day he was born, he almost said, he granted her this moment of acceptance that beyond her was now him. And there was this new life that I could focus on and pour my love into. You know, even if she hadn't been at the birth, she would have felt that. But seeing the surge of that energy and the build-up of bringing him into life, you know, it's beyond words, isn't it? It's absolutely beyond words. and he brought that into our life, you know, and it was an incredible, like, it was an amazing birth, really. I mean, it's not fun. It's not fun, is it? Birth isn't that fun, but I had a birth that I think, you know, was a pretty good one, you know, and he was born in water in this beautiful birthing centre in Cornwall, and then afterwards we would just all lay in bed together Herbie on top of me, feeding my sister, Chris and my husband and we were watching Neighbours Neighbours was on, he was born when Neighbours was on How amazing is that?

33:14I remember looking up at the time and looking over at Chris and the telly was there and they weren't rushing me out of the room because no one else was on the birth centre that day. I was like, this is amazing. Graham nipped out to get fish and chips. And then I was just like, had this moment of I've got this baby on me. I'm watching neighbours. We're eating fish and chips. My sister's here. Life is fucking great. Yeah. This is amazing. And then I got rolled in next door to be stitched up. Not quite so fun. That bubble burst a bit then. But it was, wow, what a day. I wonder if also there's the factor of, you know, from the age of 23, you have both had death around that.

34:00The idea of death is so much closer to you, you know, and I know that there was such an emphasis on living life. Like for me, for me personally, Kristen, you completely changed how I even perceive and look at cancer diagnosis. it's absolutely living you're living with this diagnosis not dying from it how you know how it would have been sort of talked about decades before um but to have that to know that you know to have that as part of your life that is is so omnipresent but and then to have life literally burst into your world you know it is just that life and death are so close and actually we can't have one without the other and that burst of life must have just sort of been magical.

34:50I think it happened exactly when it needed to happen, you know, him coming at that point in our lives, even though she might have been a little bit in denial about it and I think she would have been worried about that shift in dynamics and our relationship. I do think this other perspective, this other direction of our attention and interest. Yeah. It was enough for us to go, you know, cancer's still there, but actually there's this other thing now. You know, when we started Copperfield, we were so in it. It consumed our every being and, you know, there was definitely elements of it still being there before Chris died.

35:29Like Copperfield was always going to be her baby. She was always, you know, so focused on it. but then Herbie being there it was it it gave us something that we just didn't think we needed but actually it was it was perfect timing of where everything was going in terms of her disease and the time that she had left you know because she she got four years with him you know and within those years there's things that he remembers which I I think is so special yeah you

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37:56How was that shift? Or do you feel like there was a shift between you when Herbie arrived? Yeah, I do. I mean, it was hard not to. Yeah. But I think in positive ways, I guess there was no longer that, do you fancy going away for the weekend? And, you know, she'd have to find someone else to go with. It didn't stop her from doing, obviously, amazing things. She just did them with other people. There were definitely times where I thought, you know, have I done the right thing, honestly? Because now my attention is no longer fully on her. I'm having to divide it. And there was guilt, for sure. Guilty if I wasn't with him, guilty if I wasn't with her.

38:45Because the reality is the same thing as always. it's like she was still living with that disease and you're still always wondering what's coming next. But lucky that Graham was always at home very supportive of whether when I needed to be with her, I could just go and be with her. But yeah, it certainly did change things between us. But it was also really beautiful in that she just loved sharing in observing the world through his eyes she got to see that you know and she was so playful and so childish and silly and now she had a mate to do that with you know and she always brought that energy into our home and have he loved it he absolutely loved it yeah there's definitely this sort of cheeky side a look there's this look and whether it's a Halinger look maybe it's a look that I give too but I see it in him and she had it.

39:45Like a defiance of just... But also a tenaciousness about him. There was so much in him, for sure, and that's a beautiful thing.

40:01Towards the end of her life, you're her main carer. I know you had amazing help from Siobhan. But at that point, you're still a mum. So that balance of living your life for Herbie and for Chris, I can't imagine how much of a pull that would have been at that time and how you would have juggled it in the way that you did. I found it really hard because also when when you're sort of entering that sort of end of life part you don't know how long we're on this road for it could be weeks it could be months and no one could tell us for sure I didn't really want to know to be honest but then it made it quite hard to know how to divide my time and to know how to communicate that with Herbie as well who he was four and he was going to start school later that year.

41:00So quite a big part of his childhood. I guess I had trust in knowing that on the grand scheme of things, I knew it was going to be forever. It wasn't going to go on and on and on. And I would return to being his mum soon. and what I didn't really want was being on the other end of that and have any regrets about not spending enough time with my sister. I think my natural response was I need to be with her. I absolutely need to be with her and I was and I slept in bed with her every night and I did everything I possibly could but I also know that at home I had a very supportive husband who was with my child, thank God.

41:49But also, you know, we were able to do that from a financial point of view too. And there were times when I was going through that thinking, God, what do other people do? You know, carers and people who need to get back to work and don't have the support around them or don't have the ability to. I just, yeah, it was a very, I felt quite privileged to be there for her at that time. But now I just think I would not have wanted to be anywhere else. Yeah. I'm so glad that I was there. Because also it was of how it was affecting her brain in a way that she wasn't able to communicate anymore, but there was a communication that always lived beyond words between me and her.

42:39Yeah. Always, always did. And I could be her representative because I felt like I knew her. Mm-hmm. It's a tough role to take on. And I know that you wouldn't have had it any other way. But to also be the gatekeeper in that last little bit of time to kind of go, no, I'm putting Chris's needs before what anyone else wants right now. Or they feel like they need and to be the one that's kind of like holding the fort in ways that you can't prepare for until it's happening. yeah and I struggle with that even now I've had to make some really hard decisions and yeah there was a lot of questioning myself my judgments my thoughts my feelings everything I think there just came a moment where I thought I you have to just make a decision and live with it wholeheartedly because this is what feels right right now and what I don't want to look back and go I wish I hadn't done that you know and I think there was power sometimes in that feeling too and just think you know this is an opportunity for me to say this isn't right for her and knowing that she has me and I think she always knew that I would be that person so I she'd granted me the permission to be that person that and take on that role so I just I had to just believe that I was you know I had to believe that I was and I'm still that's still work in progress yeah people have an idea about how death looks how end of life looks it might look like candles and soft music and people coming and going to say goodbye and leaving cards and things the reality is it might not look like that and I guess for her you know it had gone to her brain so she couldn't communicate so there wasn't her telling me I don't want this music on right now I don't want that so-and-so coming around you know everything sort of slowed down to a pace that was so unfamiliar with me I'm so used to just doing doing doing and just to just sit with it and go, no, this is actually exactly how it should be right now.

45:01She, when she was able to tell us whether or not she wanted people to come by, quite often it wasn't. And I think it's because it was more protecting that person. You know, people were so used to seeing positive Chris or like not necessarily positive, but living Chris, you know, getting on Chris to be able to give as good as she was getting, you know, in terms of communication or talking or, you know, doing whatever she could and I don't think she wanted people necessarily to see her struggling if if I was to give anyone advice around that time I think is to actually just fully do what you think is necessary or what you need at that time and not get too swept up with the noise out out there and what other people are pushing their agendas or things onto you you need to reserve have some for yourself like it's exhausting did you explain anything of what was going on at that time to herbie we did he always knew that she had an illness often she would come to my house to have iv drips of like vitamin c or mistletoe or something and he would love watching needles going in and he you know he was very part of that and she would explain what it's for and And he always knew that she lived with this illness.

46:20So when things were more obvious that she was unwell, we told him that things were getting worse for her and she wasn't going to get better. We made that quite clear. We didn't say she is going to die, but things weren't going to improve and it meant that the things that he was used to doing with her is unlikely that he was going to be doing those with her anymore. He used to come and spend time in her house. when she became a bit more bound to her sofa or bound to her bed, he would be in the house. But I think just really just an injection of this sort of, that child energy that I think we just need sometimes.

47:03She wouldn't, she'd struggle to make much of an effort for many people, but she would make an effort for her being. She'd like sit herself up a bit more or like, she'd always get special toys out when he came round or, you know, she'd always make effort for him so it's nice that he was there to give her that still but to find the balance of that was quite tricky I think because he was asking questions I never lied we always gave him an honest answer he never asked is she dying because I don't think that's the thought that they would have I don't think that's where he would where his mind would have gone but he obviously noticed that I was spending less time at home and I was spending no more time with Auntie Tina and he was just okay with that he just thought Auntie Tina's not well mommy's looking after her that is how he saw it was very black and white he is quite a black and white kid and then the day I was really really spending a lot of time with Chris at this point yeah obviously I was staying at her house Graham and Herbie would come over and I'd go out for a little walk whilst our friend Stacey was also helping me look after Chris, she'd say, come on, you go out.

48:16And I think those moments gave me more than I thought they did at that time. I was quite hesitant. I was so worried that something might happen if I leave the house. And they didn't. It was fine. but I just became this absolute fierce protector of Chris by the end. I couldn't bear to leave her side. So it was really hard to sort of wrench myself away but when I did, yeah, just being around Herbie and Graeme, I needed, it was a reminder that there was life beyond, you know. So I'm quite grateful now that I did force myself to go out. It seems like there's a period of time where you're either full-time managing what's going on with Chris or with Herbie.

49:05They're massive things to be kind of occupying your mind and heart. I'm guessing there is no point within that where you kind of step away and just take a breath. And there was definitely some yearning for that. I think there was times it would get to really late at night. Chris was in bed. There was this quiet moment in the house where I think, I can't do this I can't do this I think what I must have told myself at that time was that I will have my time again it will come back just not now I've just got to keep going I've just got to keep going I just found this I don't know where from but I found a strength I did not know I had and I would message Graham I remember so well the messages I would send him I can't do this I don't think I can do this I can't do this I can't fathom how I can keep doing this but also then how I can do this without her

50:09and he would just keep replying with the same thing he said you will you will and you must and I did and like at the time it just felt like it went on and on and on And the days were so long. It was such a timeless moment in my life. But really, on reflection, it was, you know, a few months and nothing in comparison to the amazing amount of time that we had together. It was just very hard when those feelings are so enormous to not let them consume you completely. And to know that you should allow yourself to have the outlet. If your outlet is literally just messaging Graham every now and then, you know what I mean?

51:00I have no doubt that that is never something that you took into Chris. And that's difficult in itself because she's the one that knows everything about you. You know, you would have talked about everything throughout your lives. So to suddenly not allow your fear of this situation and fear meaning lots of different things. Fear of life without her, you know, fear of what the end is going to look like. to suddenly have this monumental thing that you're experiencing on your own. And that's the start of life without her, is the losing her. Yeah, I think because she was so well for so long, really, the reality of this time, whereas she wasn't going to be around anymore, that was sort of kept at bay for a long time.

51:51Did it feel like a bit of an abstract idea? You know what I mean? Like, look at her. She's great. Yeah. Yeah, I think after she died, the amount of people that told me that they thought she was going to live forever.

52:03Yeah, but it's funny. We did share everything. We did. But we never shared our fears like that with each other. She always hid that from me and I always hid that from her. Just fear of upsetting each other. We just really like making each other sad about that. which I find fascinating because I know I had several conversations with her about other people who had died within you know died over the years and how they hadn't talked to their loved ones about death and dying which is why she wanted to talk about it so much like or not talk about it so much but learn so much about it and that's why I find it fascinating and interesting and that it was still, even though you're both doing so much work within that, kind of accept that death and what that brings, there is still that fear to actually bring what you've both learned to each other.

53:00But I think we both knew that we were doing the work. Just keep it separate. So she was reaching this level of acceptance over there. She was going to death festivals. Yes. But actually, I guess she wanted to know that I would be okay I think that was always her greatest, greatest fear. She'd accepted she was going to die. She wasn't okay with it, but she'd accepted it. The bit she was never, ever okay with was leaving me. And she was so worried about me. That was the bit that she could never be okay with or make peace with. And I guess the more she learned about people who lived beyond, or, you know, that's what she was working on probably.

53:46and that's why she needed me to also be involved in that is the understanding of how okay she was okay. She needed me to know that and I guess also the way in that she never let my love for Herbie or my attention with Herbie ever affect her or like she would certainly never say, come on now, you need to come and spend the weekend with me and not your son. Like it's because she knew that I was building this life that I was returning to after she she'd leave. So I think that's why she was always OK or probably not really OK, but she had to be OK. And it meant that that is what Myron would have after she after she was gone.

54:31I mean, she'd she'd have so many books in her house on death and dying. I have read all of these since and I've I'm now so much more open to it all since she's died Isn't that fascinating that starting to read it when it felt right to you has got to also be important right like she was able to read those books when it felt right for her and to dive into it further and that just happened later for you Yeah the absolute worst thing has happened What else is there? I mean, obviously, there are other dear people in my life that I don't want to lose, but I couldn't understand how my life could continue without her.

55:13Honestly, even though I had 15 years to get used to the idea for so many of those years, I think I was in denial about it. Obviously, there was grief from the moment she told me because and it wasn't just grief of the thought of losing her. It's just the grief of the life I thought I was going to have and we were going to have together. You know, it wasn't it just wasn't what I had anticipated happening at 23. You know, there was grief on lots of different levels, but never a true understanding of or accepting that I was going to be OK without her ever. You know, the day after leaving her house, after she'd, you know, she died, she'd been collected.

55:56Her house was empty. I returned home. and as you say you return and you're I'm back to being a mum yeah and you have to get up you have to be present for your child you have to parent there is no other option and before you know it weeks have gone by months have gone by I'm surrounded by people who love her all the time it's a shared grief it's a shared loss longing love and it's so nice we can all speak so openly about that and her and you know we all have the most incredible memories of her and I wonder how that would feel if it was just me who has all these feelings and thoughts and memories you know I there's also this privilege knowing that we had a bit of her you know we got to have a bit of her so it's that it's it's it's the reading of these books too to be honest like it's like okay is I need perspective all the time I remember when we were in Montenegro and we were staring at mountains God, I need a mountain to give me perspective.

56:55I need the ocean to give me perspective. We are just one in so many. We make up such a small part of this ginormous picture. We're here for such a short amount of time on the grand scale of things. This is the stuff she'd want to hear me saying right now. And she'd be like, fucking just get on with it. Just live life. Life is still there. And you've got so many reasons to get up in the morning. You know, there's so many things to be living for. That moment of okayness probably did start the very next day after she died. It had to. Well, you said you'd been grieving for over a decade and a half by that point.

57:36And the worst that could have happened, happened. Yeah. So I don't think it actually takes a death for that grief to kind of explode. No, but I was most scared of that. But also that I was scared of the actual dying bit. You know, I've never seen someone die before. that's abstract in a way you know that's that's an experience I didn't think I don't know why but I didn't think I'd ever witnessed it but now having witnessed it having been there the privilege the amazement the awe that I felt in that moment I just it sounds probably quite strange but I wanted to go outside and shout from the rooftops that there was a dead body inside that house which is it's probably quite unhinged thought it was just this how can the world carry on when there's this just huge shift in energies the spirit mind everything is just occurred inside that house and I was I can't be the only one that's feeling this right now I cannot be the only one experiences right now this is incredible I can't believe that someone with such vitality so much magic and or like amazement and just I mean she was otherworldly she was to be lying in front of me and taking her last breath you know um I was so scared of that time But now I just look at it and think, wow, how lucky I was to be there, you know.

59:14Yeah. Obviously a tricky thing to manage is parenting through your own grief. Do you feel like having Herbie helped you during that time? Or was it again another juggle? And how did you explain things to Herbie at this point? so the day after she died I stayed in her house for a little while because I couldn't face explaining anything to anyone I just needed to really gather my thoughts I was exhausted I was I hadn't slept properly for weeks but I went home with my friend Stacy and the penny dropped as soon as we walked through the door because obviously he hadn't seen me for ages but also I was with Stacey and Stacey was the other person that was normally with Chris so he was like where's Auntie Tina that's his that was his first thought which I thought was really intelligent for him to think that's interesting that you're both here who's looking after her and I just I just said that she's she died um she's no longer here well she's here but she stopped breathing her heart stopped and he his first question was what did you do with her did you put her in the bin and isn't it just something so great about kids to really bring you back to the honesty of life and the simplicity of life too yeah we laughed we thought it was hilarious no we didn't put her in the bin but he was really he had so many questions he was very curious about what happens to the body after we die and he wanted to know what we'd do with her next what what was she going to be put in how does if you're not putting her in the bin where's she going so we um we did our best to explain in a way that was you know okay for his brain to understand but being very realistic with it because he is quite a realist but we really wanted to see this thing this box that we that she was going to be in before she was cremated uh so we showed him the box because at her funeral she had um brought her cardboard casket as you know um and she asked everyone to write notes and things on it and draw pictures I mean I think as the night got later notes got more obscure and weird and drunk but I think it was a really nice outlet for a lot of people I think at first people were very daunted by doing that people were a bit scared to go up there and write stuff on her casket but by the end of the night there wasn't there wasn't much space there was hardly any space left on it people had really gone to town but he really wanted to see it she'd never got it out again after she died it just lived in the cupboard and then he wanted to see it so we let him interact with it he wanted to draw on it so he got the opportunity to do that so yeah I think I didn't realise how much visually he needed to understand beyond that obviously she was cremated and I wasn't even at the cremation so he then understood that her body was heated up and we now are left with these ashes.

1:02:44And he hasn't asked questions beyond that. I have a memory of someone messaging me and saying that Chris's ashes were on the back of his tractor just being driven around the garden as soon as she returned back. Yeah, so I had a message to say the ashes were back. So I took him to the funeral home to pick up the ashes and he said, is that Aunty Tina? I said, yes, it is. can I drive her around on my tractor trailer? She would love that. So, yeah, I think let's give her a last ride on the tractor trailer. So, yeah, I literally just plonked her in the back of his. He's got a little pedal tractor. Did a few laps of the drive.

1:03:26I would love to know in years to come how Herbie processes and looks at death because her rashes have been everywhere. You know what I mean? And, you know, they've been on a bench, they've been on a beach. You know, he has seen people take her ashes into the sea compared to a world where we are so scared to talk about death and dying. Whereas he sees people celebrating Chris and honouring her all the time. That is a gift in itself. I think so. I think he has experienced a death in a positive way, if there was such a thing. I strive for that. I do strive for that communication around death for our next generation because I don't want it to be this mystifying thing.

1:04:19I don't think that helps children to understand. And it will always be this mystical thing that happens and then we don't talk about it and people get sad about it. He does know that I will cry at the drop of a hat if we talk about her. Really? And sometimes he has stopped himself from talking about her. He'll start a conversation about Auntie Tina and he'll say, oh, I won't say that because it'll make you cry. And I'm like, no, I'll never, ever stop talking about her. Because I want, yeah, you might not want to see me cry, but I want you to know that it's okay and I will be okay. It's just I miss her and I'm never going to not miss her.

1:05:00And sometimes that makes me sad. and sometimes it's happy tears too, you know. I hope we've done it in a way that he understands it's still, it's enormous and it is earth-shattering and sad but it's also, it is life in a way and we can be okay about talking about it and honouring that person in a way that feels right for the family. And what about you now? Obviously her visit school. Well, how are you finding time for you and what does that look like? I mean, I think the fact that he was starting school the year she died is probably quite helpful because it meant like, yeah, it was a huge thing, but it meant that we were focusing on him being at school and it gave me time to be sad at home.

1:05:51It's just been a process of working out who I am without her. It's the realisation that my life was completely entwined in hers and it's still a process obviously it's been two and a bit years but you know there have been definitely moments of realising that I am so much stronger than I thought I was I can, I am I have independence I was so codependent but I am okay on my own, I am when she was really unwell I realised how much I could no longer do for her and then realising that the simplest things were so powerful like touch, so touching her hands, touching her head, touching her feet I mean she always loved being touched but that sort of came into its own when she was unwell, really unwell and noticing what difference that makes to someone's healing or survival or just quality of life I had a feeling that I needed to incorporate that more into my life and understand that a bit more and being able to offer that to people who are going through cancer treatment especially because quite often they're turned away from sort of touch massage therapies um so I channeled that desire that sort of urge to understand it a bit more into a profession so I do that a lot now which feels really lovely and you're bloody good at it thank you I hope that I am it comes from a really good place of love and nurturing and I think that I do that I am that sort of a person I am that sort of nurturing bringing people along and making things okay I love that I found that in a way as an outlet for that.

1:07:56I think she would love that too, so much. I think I've been very wary that I don't want to now feed everything into her feed. I don't want to be needy on him. I don't want him to say that he is the one, the reason I've survived. He is, like, I don't want that for him. I think it could be quite suffocating and not necessarily that healthy. I think I've never wanted to burden him with that. And he is obviously a huge part of my life, but he isn't everything. He's a puzzle piece of lots of puzzle pieces that make up this incredible picture of my life. So, yeah, I'm very aware of that, and I think there is a healthy boundary there.

1:08:45If you could write a letter on motherhood, who would it be to and what would you say? I would write lots of letters to lots of different people. I really thought about this and I think the letter I'd want to write and the letter I'd want to receive is, it's to me, but like 23-year-old me at the point at which Chris was diagnosed. And it's kind of a letter of reassurance to say, yes this is unbelievably sad and earth shattering and we don't know what's going to happen next but in a few years you're going to birth this little person and he is going to offer a whole new perspective on life and he'll be another reason to hit up in the morning he will be the reason she accepts the impermanence of her life he will be what gives her this feeling of it's okay to leave maran i think i would have wanted to know that i think i'd really wanted to have known that and actually say it's also okay to think about the future there is a future she wrote a letter to herself in her book and it really made me think like what would i have wanted to hear at 23 too because I had all these fears around what my future looked like too and um to hear that it's okay to think about something also beyond Chris you know that it's okay to think about yourself too um yeah we end the podcast with you completing three sentences the first one is being a mum means being given an opportunity to be a child again I think just the joy of innocence and but also honesty and silliness and playfulness and wow isn't it amazing being a child yeah and if only we could appreciate it at the time and i it's so as a mum to witness that again and realize how great it was being a child yeah since having a child i have bought earplugs

1:11:11and finally i'm happy when at the moment I'm thinking about recent times so at the moment as a fellow plant grower of an evening I need to tend to my allotment to go and water it put it to bed and the putting to bed of the allotment comes after the putting to bed of my child and often I will leave Graham and Herbie in our bed reading a book together and that scene I mean it it completes me honestly it's beautiful and then I wake at night and I go and put my other babies to bed when I'm in my allotment surrounded by the plants that I've grown from seed I get so much happiness I know and I can say that to you because you know you know I know I'm that feeling and it's it's it's such a simple way to get happiness I think really Lauren and thank you so much.

1:12:12Thank you, thank you. Thank you. The book's out on the 24th of September. Yeah. Good luck. Thank you. I'm glad it's out there now. Yes, absolutely. It's a joy giver. It totally is.

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