Happy Dad, Happy Baby!

0:00Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

0:37You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. and you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

1:25Hello and welcome to Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Now, if you cast your minds back to March, you might remember that to celebrate Mother's Day, I had a little dig through our archives and shared some of my absolute favourite moments with the wonderful mums who have joined me over the years. Do go and have a listen if you haven't already. I absolutely loved it. But of course, I couldn't let Father's Day go past without also shining a light on some of the brilliant dads we've had on the podcast. In a world where masculinity and what it means to be a man is constantly up for debate, it's been a real privilege to hear these men open up with such honesty, vulnerability and a whole lot of laughter.

2:04So happy Father's Day you lot. Please enjoy some of my very favourite dad chats, starting with the father of my own children. Possibly my favourite father of all. It's Tom.

2:20I was really looking forward to being a dad for a long time and I think everyone has in these kind of preconceptions of what it's going to be like and then I wanted to be you know I wanted to be really prepared so you know we both sat and read all the books and you were you know adding books to this huge pile that was growing on my bedside table and I wanted to read them all you know, I wanted to know this whole unknown thing you're about to enter into in your life. And I wanted to be really prepared for that. And so I read lots, then discovered that maybe I probably maybe I shouldn't have read so much because I think I really overthought it.

2:56And, and the reality is that you can't be prepared for it, because it's completely no matter how well it's described to you how much you read about it, until you're living and experiencing it, it's a completely unique experience for you as an individual and so it wasn't like anything that I'd read really. Did you find anything that you read good or did you find it actually had a hindrance on your? Yeah I found well I found a lot of the stuff about the pregnancy and the birth especially the hypnobirthing book that was really that was amazing that was really informative and described you know what was going to happen with you and your body during birth I found it described it better than any of the other books I'd read and and then also because we did hypnobirthing you know for both the kids so I really enjoyed that book but I think some of the other ones which kind of describe people's experiences and things and or kind of you know the do's and don'ts or you know what to watch out for okay I just kind of think they're it'll just go out the window when you actually have a kid well and they put a lot of expectation on you I think yeah and also I found that I was worrying about things I hadn't worried about before because someone else had worried about it yeah you know I read about you know just stupid stuff that I if I hadn't have read that oh this person had worried about this it was that I thought wouldn't have even been in my mind and I wouldn't have worried about it and that's a lot of stuff like that I just think I would have been better off just winging it just playing it by ear of it because that's what you do as a parent isn't it you don't you can't prepare you have to because you know you're entering into a new relationship with a new human that you don't know yet and that they're half of that relationship they're going to dictate to you how what it's going to be like and how did it feel for you when we decided that we were going to not be trying not not trying because we never actually were like we're going to try for a baby our thing is we're going to not not try yeah i think that's what a lot of couples do really isn't it just a little bit of wording makes all the difference well obviously you know from hypnobirthing you know that is that's true isn't it the way you think about something does totally change can change your you know the way you think about it and did I say the way you think about something changes the way you think about something that the way that you word stuff and the way you approach it you know if you just change one tiny little thing then it makes you see it completely differently and takes all that pressure off you don't know what's going to happen do you because I think when we were not not trying for buddy I think because it's because it had taken we didn't have a lot of time to not try exactly I think because yeah like because it had taken so long with bars we were kind of like oh well just not not dry now because it's gonna take a while isn't it and then what do you know pregnant straight away well before before buzz obviously we did um we did fall pregnant i did fall pregnant i don't think we're one of those couples that are like we were can i say we how do i say that i still don't know i feel weird you can't say i know you were pregnant I just was there but with more buzz you know I fell pregnant really quickly and obviously that ended in a miscarriage I think I've always processed how that was for me and I think a lot of women kind of it's all on the woman and I know that's probably because as a man you don't really have a lot of time to even bond with that idea it's not actually physically happening to you but how was that it was really difficult and I think I only really I think I found it more difficult later on I think maybe after we had Buzz that's when it really kind of hit me and you realized what it was that what you went through and you're right because even when you have a kid as a dad I find like I found it really difficult with Buzz for the first six months yeah really hard just worrying about am I connecting with him am I bonding with him there's this instant connection between mum and baby and I was not prepared for that at all and and that's with your child that has been born and you're holding and loving and so having a connection with the idea of a kid or you know that you know you don't I'm not experiencing the same physical react you know um reactions that you're getting from uh you know from really early on in pregnancy and so it's just this idea of that you were pregnant and we were both young it's the first time it happened it doesn't really feel real or that it's happening to you and I think at the time you know we hadn't been we hadn't struggled with getting pregnant before that so I think it just kind of took me by surprise and I just thought oh is this just something that happens to everyone just you know I don't know I just don't think I really could process exactly what had happened until I was a dad yeah and then I found it yeah I found it really hard I think actually after you wrote happy mom happy baby and really reading about I did chuck the 10 ,000 words at you at the start and not told you I didn't tell you what it was that you were about to read yeah and then And reading about how you felt through that, that was really difficult.

7:43And it suddenly hit me what we went through. Not just what you went through, but actually what it was that I went through then as well. And what we lost. It's really difficult. I am taking it back to an episode that first broadcast in May 2019. It's with the lovely Jeff Brazier. When we first recorded the episode, it was the 10-year anniversary of the passing of Jade Goody, the mother to his sons. relationships are really difficult generally ours was ridiculously difficult because she was a huge strong character she was going through a huge transition in her life from going from living in Bermondsey with her mum and having her childhood you know you know if she was here to tell the story which I'm sure she would have done many times hers was a lot harder than than your average yeah so here two kids that have effectively learned a lot of lessons through mistakes as opposed to through good example and you know what are those two sort of negatives create I think you had two parents that wanted so badly for our children to have what we didn't yeah and we fought for it and we battled so hard to stay together to find meaning ever to try and find resolution and everything so that we could stay on track, stay together.

9:08The truth was, is that I think it was, the odds were stacked against us, if not because of living our relationship out in the, in the media, which. We were constantly in the papers, you know. And the media was different at the time. It doesn't seem so harsh these days, but at the time it was, it was very intrusive. And again, you know, I'm not one of these that, that like, you know, they, they ruined it for us because don't get me wrong it was difficult enough as it was but it just magnified it the fact that there were people so willing to get that information and to publish it and obviously as we know now like they went about getting that information a lot of the time in a illegal way which then obviously caused a lot of questions to be asked between Jade and I and our sort of immediate friends who's saying this yeah who's selling this story and it was who's selling out it was such a regular thing for us to talk about so yeah what but how difficult to be going through that thing you know your own struggles anyway and trying to navigate your way through that and then having this external pressure and all of these eyes and these opinions that have nothing to do with your relationship but ultimately having an effect yeah so many layers of difficulty ultimately of disadvantage but yet you know there was obviously a lot of privilege in in our lives at that time for two young kids who had grown up with not a lot.

10:28We suddenly sort of found ourselves earning good money. So I can't say that it's all... I certainly wouldn't want people to feel sorry for us in that example. But the one thing I'm sort of not talking about is how difficult it was having a baby. Yeah, exactly. And do you know what? Actually, I've used the wrong word because I didn't find it difficult. Didn't you? No, I didn't. And maybe being a dad and having Bobby was some form of distraction from the difficulties in our relationship. But I only ever felt really calm, really capable. I used to love carrying him around everywhere, taking him shopping.

11:07I remember so many women would sort of be like, oh, you're good, aren't you? Oh, yeah, I hate that. Tom's got Max today. Yeah. And I made a point of posting about it on Instagram and going, it's not daddy daycare he's a dad he's a dad yeah he has equal responsibility over this little life exactly I agree with you at the time I think it did sort of did flare up like should people be saying that is that almost a bit of an insult but I also understood yes it's obviously 15 years ago but also the fact that they're saying that in relation to their experiences of dads and brothers and uncles and stuff so I didn't really take a great deal of offense not necessarily in my style to do so.

11:51But I just remember that being a dad equalled pride. Yeah. You know? And, yeah, and I enjoyed it from the word go, to be honest. Sleepless nights? Yeah, we would have had to have got... Tell me, only both of them have slept incredibly well throughout the whole of their... I remember we'd split by this time, and I think the boys obviously stayed with me in my bed when they were maybe a little bit older, and I remember one of them, actually, I think it was Freddie, he fell off the bed, which would have been maybe two or three foot, standard sort of double bed height. And I just remember waking up in the morning and being like, oh, my God, one of my kids has disappeared.

12:35But I looked on the floor and he was just laying there on the carpet without any sheets or anything because he'd just got on with it. And he's such a log, as am I, that that's when you just think, these kids are going to sleep through the whole childhood, no problem. So I got away with that one, actually. I don't remember that being particularly difficult. Was it a very difficult decision deciding to end your relationship? Because when kids are involved as well, and you're both kind of fighting for this happy family life that you both wanted, was it a difficult decision to kind of go, actually, we're better apart?

13:09I think we both probably suspected it. We might not have wanted to have admitted it. And there's this element of guilt that we both would have felt over, oh, I'm now the person who is ultimately deciding that Bobby's not going to have what we didn't have. So we're going to end that fairy tale, if you like, of delivering what we didn't experience. I think as time went by, again, it just become more and more obvious to both of us that we were fighting a losing battle. And actually, it was probably starting to really affect both of our mental health. I don't think that I was close to a breakdown as such, but I don't know.

13:49There's layers to it. There's a scale, isn't there? I don't know how far along the scale I was, but I just know that I was really stressed and I felt helpless. Helpless is exactly the word, actually, because when I met Jade, I saw a side that nobody else had the benefit of seeing while she was obviously on telling Big Brother. And it was the last thing that she actually wanted to show people because that was her vulnerability. but she gave me the right to see it and it was beautiful. And she was, you know, an incredible person for all her experience. And I got it. I got the fact that she'd had such a difficult childhood that she wasn't always going to be easy to be with.

14:26And I accepted that. But yeah, I think it just got to a point where I knew that I was powerless to help her. Because she had to find that herself. If she was ready to look back into her past and try and make sense of it all so that she could be the best version of herself every minute of the day as opposed to just switching it on and off when it felt safe to do so. Safe's the word, really. How old were the boys when you decided to separate? Freddie was still a baby, actually, because Freddie caught the last train, so to speak. We had split, actually, and next thing you know, I'm getting a phone call from her.

15:02She was meant to be on a TV programme. There was another sort of Big Brother-style reality show that she'd gone on. Yeah, she called me, basically, and she's the last person I expected to hear from and said that she's pregnant again. So, again, you go this whole cycle about... And it's mad because there was a lot of relief for both of us, probably, at the fact that we had sort of accepted it. The dust hadn't necessarily settled as such, but then you go through the cycle of, well, what right have I got? What right has Bobby got being here if Freddie's going to be denied the chance? So, I mean, that could have obviously gone on forever And at a point, I think you would have just said, well, this is silly now.

15:40We need to look at how we're dealing with our contraception. Because it seemed like that was the issue. But obviously, grudge it for a second because I've got two incredible kids. So were you ever together when Freddie came along or were you completely separate? Yeah, no, we was like, right, ding, ding, round two. Let's have another go. And, you know, you'd put your positive spin on it. But it wasn't really any different. And it just sort of compounded the fact that we were not right for each other. and we weren't particularly good at handling the stresses of what our reality was at the time. And being a parent is hard.

16:15Even now, for me getting up in the night, there is a hint of resentment looking at Tom when he's asleep. You know, there's always that juggling act of who's doing what and trying to bring up these children who are completely, you know, they're unpredictable. You know, you don't know what you're going to get at any given moment and so there's so many variables anyway in your life and to not have that stable foundation must make it really hard. I love that we're talking about this because it's making me sort of realise things. But if I was to really focus on how we were as parents when we were together and also when we weren't together, that was the easy bit.

16:53Really? Yeah. Maybe if we were very stable, then we would have sort of been able to, oh, yeah, that was difficult. But actually, maybe because everything else was so rocky, actually, the parenting bit seemed easy because actually we were enjoying it so much. It was unconditional love, whereas love had been unkind to us, I think, before that, you know, from our parents, you know, speaking personally for me, not ever having met or known my real dad and the lack of or the loss of identity that would take place when you don't have that clear example of who you are and where you're from in front of you on a daily basis.

17:35And for Jade, obviously her parents had their issues with drugs and God knows what else. So actually for us to be able to just love a child unconditionally was like loving ourselves. And it was very natural for both of us. So actually that's where it was easy. Today's guest is a professional matchmaker. He is a certified life coach. He is an author. He is a presenter of shows that you definitely know. Celebs go dating and married at first sight. I know you're hooked now. He is a father of two boys. It is Paul C. Brunson. We get emotional, man. We get emotional too. We are attached to. We love to.

18:20I think society hasn't equipped men with the words. And that's a whole thing that we need to work on is how to be more emotive. But it's there for most of us, not some, for most of us. So leaving, you're absolutely right. It was hard. I was crying at the airport. You know, and I was thinking, is this the right thing? Should I be doing this? And, you know, when I went, I had a hard time being away. And that was when my wife and I made the pact. And we said, okay, look, if ever either of us have a project that's over 10 days, we just go together. But in order to do that, because a lot of people hear that and say, oh, well, you know, because you had a TV show and blah, blah.

19:07No, no, no. I had no money. We had no money at that time. I mean, I was being paid nothing, basically. We were starting a business. We had nothing. I was wearing the same suit all the time. Like I had no money for wardrobe to the point where there was one day – we had one dark day, one day off. And one of the EPs said, Paul, we're going to take you to the mall basically. Like you got to get some – you got to change what you're wearing, you know. And so we had no money. So we had no privilege from that standpoint, no economic privilege. But what we decided is that we would have to just set boundaries and restructure our life and not live life according to how the world dictates we should live life.

19:53And that was really when my wife and I started to create the life we wanted opposed to the life that people assumed of us. Mm hmm. I mean, how did you start doing that? Because, you know, I think building a structure around your values is really important. But for so many, many of us, we get trapped into this, you know, I get married, I have a baby, then that baby grows up, they go to school, and we stay in this one house, and then oh, we'll earn a little bit more money. And then we'll move to a bigger house. And you know, that's kind of where it's set. But actually, if you're, if you're away from that, you know, how do you find a, how do you find a Find a way that is true to you and Jill and that works for your family.

20:39Well, it starts with exactly what you said is the values, right? And this is very important is that very few of us, I think, have done the work on what our values are. To the point where I hadn't until I started to get clients. I mean, in full transparency. You know, so with our matchmaking agency, what ended up happening is we would start coaching to prepare our clients before we would match them. And that would go from two weeks to three months to now six months of coaching. One of the most impactful exercises was what we called a values exercise where every client had to sit down and literally write out their values.

21:20And there was a tricky way that we were able to pull it out. We were like, think of a day three years from now that's the ideal day, the optimal day, right? And I want you to write down what that day is. You wake up at what time. What do you hear? What are you wearing? Who's next to you? What do you do, right? And I would look at that entire narrative that was outlined. Maybe it was three pages of the beautiful day. And from that narrative, I would look at literally where the most page real estate was. And wherever the most page real estate was showed me in part what you aspire to value. So you would see someone who out of three pages, two of the pages was my family.

22:09I woke up in my entire family. My father was in the house. My mother was in the house. My brother and sisters were downstairs. So you knew family. That's the value that you aspire to. So we – and there were other exercises we did, but we would identify the values of our client. And then after we've identified the values, we would help them to make sure that they are feeding those values every week. They're doing something to help to bolster those values because that helps with their well-being. This is precisely what I then took into my life. I was like, I'm sitting here talking about values. Do I really know what my values are?

22:45Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because so many of us just read the script. Like if you were to ask me before I did that exercise, I would say I value Christianity. Right? I grew up in the church. I was like, yeah, religion. Like that's my thing. And then I realized I haven't been to church in like a decade. You know, I haven't picked my Bible has an inch of dust on it. You know what I mean? And so I realized, okay, you know, so maybe it's not a top five value of mine. And that's not what my community is telling me to have, but that is truly what we're my – so identifying the values, your values, that's where it starts is you have to identify your values.

23:32And then the next part I would say is to really look at opportunities opposed to restrictions. Right. A child, immediately what happens when you have a child? They're like, oh, it means you can't travel anymore. You definitely can't travel. You're going to bring a two-year-old with you on the plane? You can't do that. All the diseases and viruses and illnesses and, oh, my gosh, how are they going to do it? You're going to bring a stroller on the plane? What? Yes, we are. We're going to do it. Do you have a problem with it? It doesn't matter because we're going to do it. So we would look at them as opportunists.

24:05We'd say, okay, no, you know what? We're going to travel right off the gate with Kingston automatically.

24:21Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

24:58You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

25:46Many people will know him from Busted, from McBusted. He's an amazing actor, incredible. If you get the chance to ever see him on stage, please do. He just finished 2.22 last night. I went to see him a few weeks ago and I'm very, very proud of him. He is dad to three gorgeous children and married to one of my best mates. It's Matt Willis. Emma was pregnant and it didn't happen. You know, we had a miscarriage when we were away one time and it was really, and it happened and it was awful. And then I think when she became pregnant again, I just thought subconsciously that it would happen again. Right.

26:25I just kind of almost prepared myself for that in a way, you know. So when she was seven months pregnant, I was like, oh, oh, shit, this is going to happen. I'm going to have a baby, you know, like, and then it hit me, you know, and then, but I was. So do you think you were almost sort of disconnecting yourself from it a little bit just in case? I think so. Like protecting yourself in a way? I think so, you know, and I was kind of still a bit of a mess in those times, you know, like I was kind of like, I was relapsing and I was kind of trying so hard to stay clean. clean and it was kind of um and it was a really difficult time for everybody and um and then I was obviously because of that I guess you're both of your ways of coping with miscarriage would have been different as well and also I think sometimes with with miscarriage and loss you don't process you you process it process it at different times like things can happen like a pregnancy that forces you to to look back and and to process what's gone on and kind of address it yeah yeah I think so I mean I don't know whether that was mixed up in the my addiction at the time I think my addiction was just my addiction yeah it was kind of separate to everything and it was my my overriding demon that was kind of trying to kind of battle on a daily basis and and then when Isabel was born I stayed clean for a while and then I relapsed again when she was about six months old and I kind of and I missed Emma's birthday she was in Birmingham and I kind of I was at I was doing a TV show at the time and it was the wrap party and someone just handed me a glass of champagne and I was off the races that night and I kind of I turned up at her parents house at like four in the morning off my head and I was like it was the worst but then the next morning I kind of walked down and I knew what I'd done.

28:26And then I kind of, Emma told me I missed Isabel crawling for the first time. You know, she kind of bum-shuffled and stuff, but I never, you know, she didn't crawl. She called that night and I was in a pub in Watford with strangers and then in a car with strangers. You know, I missed that, you know. And it really, and it dawned on me that I was going to be a terrible father. And it really hit me. And I saw everything, that cycle of shit repeating. And it hit me like a ton of bricks. And everyone talks about kind of rock bottoms and things. And I've always been scared of those words because people die at rock bottoms.

29:14I don't know whether or not we have to hit them or what we can define them as because they're a scary thing to define. And like, oh, it's just all right. It hasn't hit his rock bottom yet. I think that's a terrifying thing to say because, you know, if we keep searching for it, we'll find it. Yeah. You know, and it's – but that for me was the turning point. And I ran out of the house and I walked down the road and I walked to the pub and I kind of – and I didn't go in and I had some gear in my pocket which I chucked in the bin and I bought a LucasAid and I walked back to the house, you know, and I got on my knees and I apologised and I said, I was so sorry and I was going to change and I really meant it.

29:54For the first time I really meant it. I'd said it a thousand times, but that moment, it wasn't so much about stopping drinks and drinking drugs. It was about being a terrible father and losing everything and them having to live with that. And it became about something else. and it really... Also, I guess if your whole life you're kind of gearing towards, you said before about the thing that you wanted to be was a dad and actually realising that you were going to become the opposite kind of dad to what you wanted and what you dreamed of. Yeah, absolutely. Because people can say, you know, and you'd have met loads of people along the way who would share their story, share the realities of their story, you know, the realities of yours.

30:46we both know people who have lost their lives because of addiction but it's one thing those stories are one thing but actually the reality of you and the innocence of that moment actually possibly is very different to this other big stuff that's out there do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, absolutely I think, you know, when I think back to it I've had so many kind of influential people in my life sit me down you know, like when I think back to it really pivotal people in my life kind of sat me down and went, Matt, you've got a problem. You've got to sort it out. Yeah. And I was like, what? No.

31:25You know, like, you know, and at times I've gone, yeah, because I don't want them to think less of me, you know. But this was not that. This was me realising that everything I didn't, Everything that I had resented and that had fed my self-hatred, my kind of every dark moment of me, I was then going to inflict on other people. And it was really obvious. You know, there was no two ways about it. I couldn't get out of it and I couldn't stop. And then I just surrendered and kind of went, I have a real problem here, I don't know what to do. And I asked for help and people gave it to me freely. It was beautiful and it's been an ongoing thing daily since then.

32:27Today I'm very excited because I've got two mates with me. One who I've worked with in 222, A Ghost Story. The other is his wife, but possibly my most favourite out of the couple. Sorry, James. It's James and Claire Buckley Hello Thanks for having me I guess I think that's something that's maybe changed as well With parenting I know my children I'm good mates with my kids I love hanging around with them I love being their dad and their friend And I don't Feel like I had that with my parents Maybe dads in particular I think Are a lot more Open now and a lot you know, more involved and softer? I guess so.

33:10Just a lot more up for being involved. I'm not having a go at sort of the last generation's parents. Well, you can see how it's changed over the years. It was just the way the things were. I know my children and they talk to me about stuff and they crack jokes or, you know, ask questions that I would be way too scared to talk to my parents about. The thing is, whatever happens in life, know that your mum and dad are on your side. If you know that, then... That's what I feel is my job as a parent, to be their go-to. Yeah, 100%. To be the person that they can go, I've maybe made a bit of a mistake here, can you help me out?

33:45Even if it's just a little thing. Yeah, anything. You know? Anything. That's why I feel the simplest way of putting the role as a parent, is being their go-to. There are so many parts of it, though, that we didn't experience growing up, like social media, like the phone situation. Like I was with a teenage girl the other day who was Snapchatting her new boyfriend of a few weeks. I think there was a conversation about how he didn't see the whole of her face and he wanted to see the whole of her face. And I was like, just make sure it's only ever the face. Because you can understand how when you're in that moment with that person, I know how easy it would be for a teenager to kind of go, oh, yeah, I'll send you a little something else.

34:23There's this whole other world that we weren't a part of. Funnily enough, Harrison, actually, I think this is a thing in schools. Now, certainly at the boys' school, you know, Harrison get into the last year of primary, you know, they start talking about sex education and the do's and the don'ts and things to be careful of. And they also go into the online world and sexting, which, you know, Harrison came to me and was like, oh, this is a thing. And I was like, oh, OK. But I thought that was great. You know, don't be careful about pictures and who you're talking to might not be who you think you're talking to and all that sort of stuff.

34:59I think kids are luckily quite clued up about this sort of thing from an early age. I do worry about that sort of thing. Yeah, me too. But with any of those conversations, sex, things like that. How comfortable are you with those conversations, James? I think I am quite comfortable. Are you? Yeah, I approach those conversations with humour and making them seem like it's not a big deal. Yeah. I was actually away working when Harrison had his first sex education lesson. I was talking to the family on FaceTime and Harrison went, oh, dad, I had my first sex education lesson today. I went, all right.

35:37I'd already texted you and warned you that he was going to ask you some stuff. He went, I've got some questions. Okay. And I went, to be honest, mate, I've probably got some questions for you. I think you might be able to teach me a thing or two. But I just think that sort of relaxed, not making things seem like a big deal. Again, making him feel comfortable that he can talk about. and sex is funny. It's a funny thing. Yeah. That is weird. Well, and also, you know... LAUGHTER But rather than going down that route... I have told her to stop laughing at me before. There was one time... There was one time where I went, you've got to stop laughing now, and it became awkward.

36:16So she couldn't stop laughing. And I went, do you know what? Forget it. LAUGHTER That was years ago. That was in the flat. All right, forget it. You do your little thing and you walk through it. Yeah, all right. But that is real, do you know what I mean? And rather that than kids just watch a load of porn and think that it's something completely different and not real. Kids aren't idiots. Yeah. And you don't have to talk to them like they're idiots. That's something that we've never, ever done with our kids as well. We never did a baby voice or... The doggy-woggy, we didn't ever really do that.

36:52No, it was just a dog. As soon as Harrison was born. It was a dog, actually. Even when he was sort of like a couple of days old and he'd open his eyes and I'd be like, are you all right, mate? You're waking up, are you? Come on, come on. Here you come. Right. What have we got? We both did speak to them like we were having a conversation with a friend constantly. And we've always had that dialogue and that way of talking with the boys. I don't mind talking to them about anything. And hopefully they don't as well. I think that's important. You know, like James said, humour is, you know, it's always there for us as well.

37:26so even if something's a bit embarrassing and stuff we will all just sort of laugh but then we can sort of then sit down and go right but this is what it means and blah blah blah and obviously Jude's not there yet Jude doesn't know anything but Harrison he was just like yep got all the information because I was like have you got any questions you know trying to be really cool and calm is there anything you'd like to know and he was like no I think I'm alright and then he came back to me a couple of days later actually and was sort of like oh so do you get like your period and stuff and I was like right yeah yeah yeah yeah so then I sort of gave him a quick roundup of that and he was like Jesus that was the one that you know he was fine yeah he was fine with the hairy balls and all that sort of stuff but that one he was like god I'm glad I'm not again and I was like yeah thank you but um no as it's all just you know take it with a little bit of a laugh but get the point across and especially with like online things and stuff like that.

38:27It's super important for them to know they can come to you and they can have a chat with you and they're not going to get in trouble. We'll laugh at the naughty words together and stuff like that. It's not a taboo thing. No, that's good. Right, if you could write a letter on being a parent, who would it be to and what would you say? So I'd write to... I suppose I'd write to a new dad and I would say... I would tell them to enjoy it because it is... Fleeting. It is fleeting. but also you don't try not to be a bit of a lad. Being an expectant dad, for obvious reasons, is way more fun than being an expectant mother.

39:04There's nothing physically happening to you. You're sleeping fine. There's no chemical imbalances going on. It's not, there's not been a physical... Did he just call me crazy? No, but... No, no, no. Not at all. Chemically imbalanced, by the way. You're not crazy, do you? He posh called me crazy, didn't he? Well, you know, sometimes when you're standing outside, Nando's waiting for it to open. What? You do still think, Jesus, is she all right? Pressing your face up against the window. Fire it up. Get it fired up. I know you're not open for another five minutes, but you can turn the ovens on now.

39:46Thanks for Nando's. Oh, bless you. No, I would say enjoy it. It's fun. It's fun being a dad. is so much less serious and more fun. You know, whether that's fair or not, unfortunately it just is. Being a dad's the best. Seeing as this is a very special episode, a Father's Day episode, I thought I would bring along a special guest. Please tell me your name and your age. Max and I'm six. And who are you? Your child. my son right up you get right okay my son my son my son my sunshine am i my son no you're my son oh not your son my son oh you are you and i'm your mom okay so it's father's day episode yeah so i thought i would get the uh the opinion of a six-year-old yeah what does it mean to be a good dad?

40:46Be kind. Yeah. Be happy. Have you ever seen a dad and gone, oh, that's a good dad? Yeah. And what was that dad like? Good, because it was my dad. Oh, mate! That's nearly made me cry! Can you describe your dad and what makes your dad so brilliant? What is he doing? He cares for me. Yeah. He's kind. Mm-hmm. He's happy. Yeah. Sometimes grumpy. Sometimes grumpy. I think we're all a little bit grumpy sometimes. And plays with me and good. He's good. He's a good human. Yes. What do you love playing with your daddy? Lego. Yeah. Is he as good at Lego as you are? No, I'm better.

41:44finally dude i end the podcast by bye no no i end the podcast with you completing one sentence okay and that sentence is i'm happy when when daddy plays with me that's very cute would you like to say goodbye to everyone bye goodbye everyone happy father's day Happy Father's Day Bye High five Well done mate Whoop de whoop de whoop Yay