Harriet Kemsley: "DON'T stay together for the kids"

0:00I think that's such an admirable thing. I'm so sorry, I have this alarm on my watch that goes off. How often? It goes off hourly. Once every 24 hours a full alarm goes off and I have three of these watches and they're all around the house in the same place. And I don't know how to stop it. I need it for stand-up and people have tried to teach me how to stop it and it doesn't work. So hopefully this will be under an hour.

0:29Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's guest is a writer, she's a podcaster, she's a stand-up comedian who has appeared on The Last One Laughing and had me in tears. She's also the mum of one little girl, it's Harriet Kemsley. Hi! Hi, thank you for having me. I mean, it must be weird, because we've all seen you around for a long, long time, but suddenly there's this programme that it feels like a lot of people needed. Do you know what I mean? And suddenly everyone is talking about The Last One Laughing. Yeah, it's been nuts because you just do things and you don't really think about it.

1:06And then suddenly everyone was like, oh, I saw you do that ping pong show. And you're like, oh my God, I didn't think that through in any way. But no, it's been so fun. And yeah, that's what everyone has said. It's that they kind of watched it and they could escape for a bit, which is so nice. I think it was magical. Magical to have a bunch of comedians who are so on top of their game, just being together and having fun? I think that's it. They really let us be silly. I think so often with TV, sometimes they can panic and they can try and really like control it. And it was a chance that we could all kind of really be ourselves while also trying to stifle a huge part of our personality, which is laughter.

1:50It was genuinely at points harrowing, but I'm glad everyone enjoyed it. Were you able to watch it back and laugh at the bits that you couldn't laugh at previously? Yeah, I hate watching myself, but I did. I mean, clips come up everywhere, so you can't really escape it. But yeah, I do. I mean, I love watching everyone else on it. It's really fun. And then seeing everyone's reactions and then seeing what everyone is saying about you behind the scenes as well. It's surreal. There's so many levels to it. You know, it's crazy. I love it. I love it so, so much. Where did you grow up? What was childhood like?

2:21I grew up in Canterbury in Kent. Beautiful place. It's lovely. Yeah. just outside on a farm and my dad was a farmer so yeah I grew up kind of running around fields and stuff I was a bit of the odd one out I guess I was telling you earlier that I'm a vegetarian and so it was a family of very much meat eaters but what kind of farm was it it was an arable farm so it was like wheat and like raspberries and pears and stuff but they very much were of the farming community uh so when I became vegetarian they were like we've this is this It's mad. What are you talking about? Yeah, I was a little bit of an oddball in this environment, I guess.

3:00Were you a bit of an oddball outside of just what you ate? Yes. I think that would be fair to say. Yes, I would always try and fit in and then it wouldn't quite work. I was also very shy when I was younger. I think it's because I have dyspraxia. I got diagnosed when I was older and that's really helped frame myself a bit. Because I always felt like I was saying the wrong thing or I would be trying to be really together and then just knock something over. So it just always felt like I was on the verge of humiliating myself. Which, you know, when you learn how to laugh at that, it's very fun. But when you're a kid, you're like, oh, my God, this is so dumb.

3:44So at what point did comedy become a thing for you then? Because that's really putting yourself out there. Yeah. Yeah. What is wrong with me? But it's funny, isn't it? Like, go from that shy kid. And I get that, you know, when... I always feel like comics have a really tough time in terms of when you're out and about. It must feel a little bit like, come on, make me laugh. You know, and actually that's who you are when you are doing your stand-up or, you know. I think it's been very freeing in a way because I would just struggle making small talk with people that I didn't really know. Like, that was so much of my childhood.

4:20And even, like, I went to university and I found that so hard. And then I started doing stand up and it was this way of and I was always fine with like friends and people that I knew well, like that I trusted. But when I started doing stand up, it was just a way that I could connect with people. And it was like I could say something and people would would hear me and laugh. And then it kind of gave me this confidence. And I feel like I'm almost a completely different person now. It's like because I can show that side of me, which it was. And I said this before, but it was my parents idea that I did stand up.

4:52Really? Yeah, no other comedian has ever said. They were like, other comedians are like, oh, my parents want me to be a doctor. And mine are like, I guess our only hope is a comedian. They were like, just stupid things happen to you and it's always really funny. And so they saw this side of me that only the people were like really close to me that would see, like strangers would be a bit like, what is wrong with this woman? I don't understand. They were always so supportive in that way of do what makes you happy. And I think that's a really, I know a lot of people who don't have that from parents and so I'm so grateful to them for that because to encourage me to go into stand-up now as a parent is mad like you think if yeah but people at nursery like say about my daughter that she's funny and I'm like she's going into the sciences you know so to think of them being so um supportive and and kind and compassionate and really like see me yeah even though that would be a very scary choice is very is very nice it's incredible.

5:51I mean to be fair I was never particularly good at jobs. What jobs have you had? Come on. My first proper job was at Debenhams. I worked in the children's wear department and I turned up an hour late after an all-night rave dressed as a pirate and so I used to work at Debenhams. Did you forget your lilac shirt? Is that what happened? I forgot my lilac shirt you know with your little laying badge. Yeah I forgot that and then I fell asleep on the shop floor and so um and so it was mutually agreed that I should leave things like that yeah um that made it tricky and yeah so it's just very sweet I originally I wanted to do acting like that was the thing that I I found and it was a way of kind of yeah that that thing of connecting with people and making people laugh and being part of a community I really liked that and then yeah the The stand-up was a way of controlling it, I guess.

6:48Like it's a way of you can do it every single night and you're not waiting. Like acting, there is a horrible side of it, which is that you're waiting for somebody to pick you. Whereas stand-up, you have complete control. You write it, you perform it, you're in control of your life. And so I prefer that much more. Like things can come and go and things can come up, which is wonderful. But you can continue for the rest of your life to work on a craft and to get better and better and better at it. And sometimes worse and then better, you know. I really like that aspect of it. When you were younger, did you ever look to your future and think, you know what, I really want to be a mum?

7:21I don't know if I... I properly started thinking about it in my 20s. My mum was such a good mum. She's so good and she's so present. She's so good at thinking of all the things that you need to be a mum. And I didn't know if I was going to have all of those things. I'm not the most aware of things. and I was so worried that I would not be responsible enough to have a child. And then when I was in my early 20s, I got told that I had polycystic ovaries and it was going to be potentially very difficult for me to have a child. So if I wanted to do it, I should do it soon. How did that feel? It felt so scary because I think I knew deep down that I definitely wanted to have children.

8:06But then in your head, I was just thinking, I'm not in a place where I'm capable of doing that like my 20s were absolute chaos like I could barely look after myself and so the thought of bringing a child into that mix was kind of impossible um not to mention that I wasn't with anyone at the time that was interested really but yeah I did know deep down that that is something that I wanted but it was or it was something I think from that moment I think I thought about when was the right time to have a child almost daily really took up so much headspace of don't leave it too late but don't like you make sure that you've got your career and you've got something to fall back on and you've got this like it just I think for women it can and some men I imagine probably not because they've got forever you're thinking about it all the time like when am I going to do this and plus when you've got a PCOS diagnosis it is it is that thing of you know that even when you do go I think I think I'm ready or think we should start trying you don't know what that's going to look like that's that's exactly it and I will say because it felt so scary when they said that to me and I was very lucky and I went to go and see this women's health specialist and she put me on this medication that helps and I did get pregnant relatively quickly I'm touching wood and I know that's not the case for everybody but I just wanted to say that in case there is anyone there that is spiraling about it like Like somebody did tell me that one of the things with polycystic ovaries is that you do create a lot of follicles.

9:38And so if you do have help, there is pills and there's medication and there's ways around it that mean that it can happen if you get the help. So if anyone is worried about it, speak to somebody because there are things that can help. Like it's not like an extremely gloomy situation all the time. And it's changed a lot over the years. I can remember when I was first diagnosed, my friend very kindly gave me this book of, you know, like a Bible of what you should and shouldn't eat with PCOS. And it starts with all the stuff that you should not be doing. It's everything. Everything. And I just remember thinking, I remember being so angry.

10:13Like, why do I have to do it? Like, why has this got to be my reality? But one thing that did really help me, and I know it sounds really ridiculous. Because I started Googling people in the public eye who have said that they've got polycystic ovaries and have like 10 ,000 children. I mean, actually, there is hope within this. Just because there's that label doesn't mean that you're never going to. But for me, it felt like I was given this diagnosis and then a leaflet and then sent off. So there's that lack of knowledge around it as well. Yeah, you're told that it might be really difficult and then you're just alone with it, with your thoughts.

10:51And it was just something I thought about all the time. And so, yeah, I feel so lucky and thankful that it worked out. So when you met Bobby, did you start talking about families pretty quickly or not? Yeah. Yeah. So I said to Bobby, I want to have children. And he said, I don't even want to live with anybody. Maybe I'd live on the same street. This wasn't a red flag. and I thought I can change him and as we all do and now we are living almost on the same street in different houses so listen to them listen to what they're saying is the um is the advice that I would give um but yeah he was he was very sweet and that um he was adopted and so I think he would have been open to adopting and I thought that I wanted to have a child And now, you know, like I do, I do think about adopting like a second child.

11:52But who knows? He was like, look, I love you and I want to be with you. And let's give it a go. And I was the one that also was like so full of worries. And what about this? And what about that? And, you know, am I capable enough? And it's like people manage it all around the world. Like this has been happening for a long time. That's why we're here. So you'll work it out. It will be, it will be fine. But you were together for a long time before you got pregnant. Yeah. Yeah. so we were together for um maths isn't my strong point um I think almost a decade before I got pregnant yeah there were many red flags before then but I think there was something he always says that I have a very weak immune system and that I was attracted to him because he ate a lot of dirt as a child it's a very strong immune system and so I clearly wanted to reproduce with somebody that would create a strong child.

12:45That's the only way I can possibly explain it. It was just that we were meant to have Mabel. It was just meant to happen and that's been a really helpful reframing of the divorce and everything that she was just meant to happen, you know? And so nothing could have happened at different points and I stayed for the exact amount of time that I should have despite all the things that suggested I shouldn't have. Yeah, that's been the most amazing thing that's come out of it. I think that's a really great way of looking at it. Was there a point where you thought actually now's the right time to start trying for a baby?

13:22Because what was happening career wise and stuff like that at the time? So it's very, it's very tricky. It's very tricky to know when you're going to be like stable in any way. I think it got to a point where I I was making a good enough living from stand-up and I think like I felt really lucky in the fact that if I had a child I would still need to like I loved I love my job I love doing it I love doing stand-up I love everything that comes with my job not everything but most things I was at a point where I would still need to do it to make money I guess it wouldn't be like a selfish thing that oh I would go off and do this you know because it was and actually I think that's quite an archaic way of looking at it like the the comics I really respect Esther Minito is somebody I think is so such an impressive person because she had two children and she started stand up on her maternity leave and I think that is such a hard thing to do just because of societal pressures to then be going out and trying to pursue something when society just wants to say oh but you should what are you doing you know but she's doing the right thing because me and Bobby always say it's really important to follow your dreams and for your child to see you following your dreams like we both think that's really important and some of the saddest people are the people that have given up on their dreams and children sense that I think and so even though it's hard and difficult I think children should you should try and do that for your child to then see that yeah I don't know if I said that in the clearest I know I think that was really really clear and so it felt like I got to a point where I was comfortable enough with the job that it you know I'd been doing it for 10 years and also the pandemic had happened so um my diary was empty like a lot of people at that time what should we do to fill this time I know we'd bought we'd bought our first place it'd taken us so long to get on the property ladder no one wanted to sell to us It was crazy.

15:23I don't know what was happening. And so we'd moved in with my brother and his wife for a bit. We'd kind of bought with them because they had proper jobs and we could kind of get a mortgage through them. And then we'd finally managed to get our own place. We'd got a puppy and the puppy was kind of a test. It was like, do we like looking after something? You know, it felt like we were so selfish. Was it done in that way of kind of like, let's let's this is like a step towards. I think it was that was an aspect of it. It was like we wanted a dog, but also it was like, if we like this, if we like, you know, looking after something, that's a sign.

15:56If we if we don't want to sacrifice enough time for a dog, then we probably should be having a child. You know what I mean? And I did. I loved it so much. I was like, OK, I can look after this dog. So maybe I can do this. And yeah, the diary was empty. And I think it would have been much harder if I could see the year and I could see what was happening. And you'd think, oh, but what about if I was to do this at this point? There was there was nothing of that. So, yeah, we just went for it. And it didn't take that long, you said? No, I was very lucky. It took a couple of months. Was it surprising to you?

16:28Yes, absolutely. Talk to me about finding out. I was... Oh, God, I'm going to cry. It's just... Maybe it's the best thing that's ever happened to me. I took the test on my own, and I called Bobby, and he was playing golf and I was like, you won't believe it. It's positive. And he was like so happy. And then he was like, I probably am going to finish the golf round. Yeah, OK. This is not why you're crying. You're not crying now because Bobby didn't want to come home. No, no, I get it. He was halfway around. He just had to go back again. It makes sense to keep going. no um it's just oh god the last couple of years have been just such a journey and um maybe was just made my life so much better and then I just didn't know what to do with myself you know you just uh and so I called I called my sister and um my friend like a few of my friends and I was just like I was just so happy and they were you know they were like that's great and they're like but you know we're working I've just been kind of sitting there just so um just so thrilled with it?

17:39I think I know the last couple of years have been tough but I think it's so important that we actually look back at the those happy moments and the things that have created Mabel and you know that's a huge part of her childhood and I think my mum and dad aren't together but when I was in labour with my eldest the two of them walked around the park next to the hospital even though Tom said not to go anywhere you know I was fine they walked around the park and they reminisced about what it was like to have us kids and um and that is so special to me that they did that that they took that time you know mabel is born out of your love and and i think that's so incredible so i think it's so important that we do look back and we reminisce about those magical times that we know that it's peppered with other stuff and sometimes that other stuff can really overshadow yeah so joy telling i i love hearing that yeah and um me and bobby have managed to put Mabel first in everything which I'm really proud of us about so we do try and be a unit for her as much as possible so that she has that and we never speak negatively about each other in front of her

18:52yeah so we're really trying to do all the right things in that respect. And it's a journey I don't think anyone just kind of splits up and it's like and we're best mates I just don't think. We tried to do that and that was a big that was a big mistake there were so many boundaries that had to be put in place um and so had to reset and then now it feels like it's got to a point where yeah it's uh it can build a an actual friendship I think yeah yeah and there's gonna be moments where it kind of feels like you're taking a step back but you always move forward yeah yeah talk me about your pregnancy how was it I felt like queasy all I felt like queasy all the time I was very lucky that um like I have friends at the moment that have hyper emesis and it was I didn't have that I just felt I just felt queasy and a bit gross a lot of the time but it was a weird thing where I did I did love doing stand-up but like I felt so strong on stage and it was like I had this little buddy with me wherever I went and while I was pregnant I actually found out that I got live at the Apollo which um was something you know that I've been working towards for a decade and it was actually my parents suggested I do stand-up a night after they were watching live at the Apollo and they were like we feel like Harriet could have done this and so it felt like this mad thing to be doing it like a decade later while I was pregnant with my baby that I'd I'd met my the dad through doing stand-up and now I was there it just felt so cool and Bobby would literally have to like roll me out the house you're doing Apollo you have to run the set so many times and so it was like so hard to get off the sofa but then when I was there I loved it and I think audiences it still is so many people just wouldn't have seen like somebody pregnant on stage How pregnant were you?

20:30So when I did Apollo, I think I was five months pregnant, I think. But I kept doing it until basically a couple of weeks before the end. Like I would have gone right to the end. But I did this gig at this private members club. And it was when COVID was like coming back. It was that Christmas where they were like, Christmas might be cancelled. We don't know. Like it's coming back. So everyone was like, we're going to go crazy because we don't know when we're going to be locked down again. And I was like trying to stay away from everybody because obviously you don't want to get COVID when you're pregnant.

20:57and you're thinking about the birth and also the child. And this woman was so drunk that she kissed me on the head. And I was like, you know what? I'm staying inside from now onwards. You lot are crazy. And so, yeah, for the final two weeks, I stayed inside. There's something so magical about having a baby inside of you and it felt like I knew who she was. Really? It's like as soon as she was born, I was like, yeah, it's you. I knew who you were. Did you find out that you were having a girl? I sobbed when I found out I was having a girl. I just was like, what have I done to do so? I just couldn't believe it.

21:31I was so happy. I just felt so lucky. I just couldn't believe it. Really? Do you think that's also from years and years of worrying that it would ever happen? Yeah, I think so. And, you know, the worry that, yeah, the worry that it might not happen to you is huge. And also as women, it's like having a partner that wants to have a child with you. There's so many factors that come into it. And so, yeah, I felt so, I felt so, I just couldn't believe my luck.

22:11How did you feel heading towards the birth? I was very scared about it. I have PTSD. And this is something that I didn't really, haven't heard anyone talking about. Have you read Sarah Hoover's book? I think it's called The Motherlode, maybe. I really recommend it. She talks about having PTSD and having a baby and how people are going to be down there in a place where there's a lot of trauma. And so it was a thing that felt very stressful. And I think one of the worries as well is that part of the PTSD was that it was hard for me to fall asleep in a place where people, strangers could be. and the hospital were really really brilliant and really listened to me about it and they were incredible and they were like we'll give you your own room like they were so kind and thoughtful about that but yeah it felt it felt quite scary I did all the things I did all the like hypnobirthing and like I really like studied it to be like I'm going to be as prepared as possible and then of course everything just um I imagine more women go through that and have that worry but it's not talked about at all yeah I know that I've got a friend who you know whenever she's going to any gynecological problem it's a massive thing and I and sadly I I know that you won't be alone in that experience but it's that it's being at your most vulnerable that's it and it it feels in those moments where you're I'm trying to write about it at the moment I think during your birth you are perhaps in a place where you're not in control of your body anymore again and it's very difficult when maybe the people around you are not completely aware of that or completely sensitive to that the time I gave birth was um maybe one of the worst times apart from the beginning of the pandemic because it felt like everyone was off sick at the hospital with covid And so people would come in and they'd be like, I haven't worked at this hospital in two years.

24:15It just called me up. You're like, this is not ideal in any way. And so nothing really went to plan. But she arrived healthy and safe. So there we go. Well, so did you, because of your history, did you elect to have a C-section? I didn't. I did all the hypnobirthing and all those kind of things. and the plan was to try and like stay really present with it and then there was a slight problem with the umbilical cord and so they said they should induce me and so obviously everyone with all the hypnobirthing says don't get induced but then as soon as there's a problem you're like well you just I'm not gonna just leave her there and so everyone said it would be more painful and all these kind of things and so I looked into a cesarean and then it just all became quite complicated and so I was like okay I'll get it I'll get induced and I'll get an epidural because I know it's gonna be more painful and then you know I'll be calmer and then I think there was a lot of confusion because I think the confusion was because my waters didn't break right and so the whole thing was incredibly confusing it's really hard to um explain this but there was a moment basically where technically I guess you could look at it as um Bobby fired the midwives what had they done nobody was it felt like nobody was listening to me and I still had the pestering inside me and I was telling them that I was in labor I was timing it I was doing all the things and everyone was saying I was not in labor and so it was a very confusing situation and I was kind of there with all these people on top of me which is exactly not what I wanted with people down below and you know I had Bobby was my um was my spokesperson that's what he was taught in the training that he had to speak for me in those moments and in that moment I couldn't speak and well he's very good at speaking so at one point he just said everyone has to get out and it was exactly what I wanted in that moment like it was it was all too it was all too much it felt like no one was listening to me and I think it was probably I'm not blaming anybody like they're understarved they're busy it's a whole thing is happening but it felt in that moment that I had no control and I was in a very panicked place again and so everyone everyone had to leave and then there was a real panic when the two of us were like oh no we're gonna we're in charge of delivering this is a nightmare um and then and then we were so lucky they sent us this amazing midwife who was like she was like Mary Poppins or something she was just she was just incredible and she was very gentle and very supportive and very like in tune with me she really made an effort to kind of tell me what was happening and and listen to me and we were very in sync and so then everything but then I said oh can I get the epidural now and she was like oh no it's way too late for that it's like I've been telling people for ages that I'm in labour I don't understand I don't understand how this has happened but yeah it was all it was awful it's a horrible thing when you feel like your labour is sort of running away from you that's exactly how what it felt like it felt like I was saying guys I but because it's maybe your first time giving birth people don't they're not listening and there's so much happening I do I like I really am not blaming anybody right now but yeah it was it was not particularly ideal I would say it's very hard to advocate for yourself in that scenario yeah I mean to kind of be really firm with what you're saying yeah to be heard and then the fact that Bobby was able to speak and almost have a reset is a great thing yeah it is it really it really actually is like if he was probably a bit a bit too firm but he did manage to get across like he could see that I was really struggling with it and that it was it was too much and with PTSD you know you can go and that's not something that you want to relive when you're in those moments and um and so yeah he did completely reset it and then um it all um it all worked out so after being told that there was no epidural how did you how did things go after that so then they were like do you want morphine and I was like I've never even heard of that as an option so you're like quickly trying to google something while you're very much in labor like is this gonna will she like not be able to play the play the violin like if I take morphine like I don't know what the repercussions of this are and so I did end up taking it and I don't know if it did really remove the pain it definitely made me like really woozy I had this this amazing thing that happened this is quite woo woo but But while I was in labor, you know, you kind of go into that space.

28:45I was just in my own world. And I just kept hearing the name Isabel. Like, literally, it was just coming to me over and over again, this name Isabel. And it was crazy because we'd never mentioned the name Isabel before. And we'd mentioned the name Mabel, maybe, but I just kept hearing Isabel. It was so weird. It just over and over again, I kept hearing Isabel. Anyway, then I gave birth and it was just incredible. I couldn't believe it. Oh, she came out in the amniotic sack. So that was like a big surprise. Whoa, did all the midwives come in? I think everyone was like, because that was, my waters hadn't broken.

29:18That was part of the confusion. And so what happened was Bobby was kind of down at that end. And I said, what does she look like? And he went, don't worry about it. We'll see. Because he didn't know. He just looked like this squid, like this just like alien sack was coming out of me. It's meant to be quite a magical thing. Yeah, it's meant to be like a very lucky, like born in the call. the cowl and uh but then I spoke to my mum afterwards you know I was like everything's happened she's born it's perfect um and my mum said I have to tell you this thing it's so weird I just when you're in labour I just kept thinking of the name Isabel and it's so weird because we never even mentioned it it was the the oddest thing that's ever happened in my life it was like we were kind of like connected telepathically it's so it's so odd did you do anything with the name so it's mabel isabel yeah that is so weird it was so it was so weird and i'm not somebody that's um that i've never had anything like that before did you not just sit there and just try and talk to each other i'm talking to her right now actually she's she's here with us yeah she's in canterbury she says hello um she loves your shirt thanks but um but yeah it was so it was so odd I think there is there is something maybe magic about that when you go into that trance of labor I don't I don't know it's really weird a lot of people talk about that trance you do go somewhere else yeah yeah like and I've been doing the hypnobirthing so I was like you know you're really like kind of going into into something and I was really trying to follow that but yeah it was so there's no way to describe that or explain that how did it feel to have Mabel in your arms just the best the best feeling in the whole in the whole world it was like yeah my buddy's here it's like it's you hear so much about it and the feeling and you just don't you just don't know what it's going to be like for you you just have no and I was so anxious my whole pregnancy like I didn't have a baby shower because I just felt like I didn't want to tempt fate and I just felt so anxious about it all like I felt so anxious that I wasn't gonna be a good enough person and that I wasn't going to be right and then I just had her and it just all it all made sense that makes me really emotional because I'm sure so many people feel exactly the same way yeah I just I just wasted so much time worrying about it like I worried so much about it and um this is probably really bad advice but I just sometimes think just have the baby you know like you waste so much time just like worrying about it and then it's actually just easier when you have the baby you just get on with it like you just I was like what if I don't have enough sleep you know like I can get I can get migraines and I can be a bit sensitive and I can be a bit with this and then what and then you just do it you just get on with it because you just have this thing that you just love more than more than yourself and she's just um she's just transformed my life she just like um raised the bar for everything in my life you know it made me realised that my relationship was not um I didn't want her to grow up and see the relationship that I was in as what was right it wasn't good enough for her and so then it became a no-brainer that I had to leave because it was the right thing for her and I should have done that a long time ago but then she wouldn't be here so it's all um it's all worked out it's all worked out exactly as it should have it's interesting isn't it isn't it because in in that moment or in those those times it's not a case of you even looking at that and going it's not good enough for me you know I mean it's it's the fact that actually now there's another little person who's in the equation who you don't want her to see that as normal and her to aspire to that and I want her to grow up with a a higher bar I guess of what is good enough so that she doesn't have to have a child in order to see that like I shouldn't have had to have a child to realize that my relationship was not was not good to me and um she she just made it everything very clear and that was um yeah just life-changing do you think you always knew that and that you just didn't want to face it yeah the thing bobby has um been diagnosed with um bipolar disorder this year and that has been a very helpful way of framing everything and understanding but uh obviously if somebody has undiagnosed bipolar their behavior is not ideal yeah to be in a relationship with but the thing is with Bobby is he is he's a very good person and he's always trying he's always doing things to try and like he gave up drinking he gave up drugs he was like always trying to find therapy he was always trying to get help and he couldn't um he just couldn't get it um uh that was the thing he was always trying but then you have a baby and it's it's too late there's no more there's no more trying and um I think since having the the freedom of not trying in a way it's allowed him to kind of get a diagnosis and work it out you know so he's doing brilliantly now it's all kind of worked out I guess.

34:33Whereas actually if the situation has stayed the same. That's it I was and like you I was in it and I was codependent and I was like you're like enabling it by allowing it to happen. Did it take a while for you to get to that point that realisation that you had to end things?

34:52I think that there was there was a moment that it became very clear that it was not um and that I am actually really grateful about that because I think for so many people it's confusing thing and um my body was just like no you know that's that's it it's not it's not right for um it's not the right um in environment and so yeah it was it was easy whereas for some people I think it can go on for a long time and it's you know you're trying and it's that gray area isn't it It's that murky area that's very, very difficult to see. Yeah, it was no longer murky. So, yeah. What were the newborn and those first few months and years like?

35:40Was that a current, the lying through it? Or were you able to also enjoy? Yeah, there was definitely a lot of enjoyment. It was chaos because I went back to work, like, very quickly. Did you? Because the thing is, you know, like, you're freelance. you have to get back to it you don't get maternity pay you know like it's not really a thing and so um so yeah a month after having her I did um a panel show which was in hindsight too soon at one point I like threw my shoe like I think I thought it was gonna be funny it really it really wasn't and um that's just internal the new mother within bit of rage okay and I remember Jo Brand as I was leaving she was like you look after yourself Harriet and I was like okay maybe maybe this was a little bit too soon um and then we started going to comedy clubs that we'd bring the clubs were amazing like we would bring Mabel and she would be in the green room and one of us would open the show and one of us would close it and um they were so welcoming and good like in a way that I think most like traditional workplaces like wouldn't be and um And Bobby once when we, he doesn't look like the most traditional parent, maybe.

36:58One night we were doing Top Secret Comedy Club and I was on stage and he'd taken her for a walk around Soho. And what was amazing is that we could be with her all day. And then, you know, for two hours we'd drive in, we'd do the show and then we'd come back and we'd be with her all the time. And he took her for a walk around Soho and a woman accused him of stealing a baby. because he's like pushing her in a tracksuit like nine at night and then you're like yeah I guess I guess that's fair enough maybe um but yeah all of these things I think I think in hindsight you know you don't know what's right like I had friends that were on full maternity leave for like a year and I think that is wonderful but I also think that it's so hard because you do that and then you suddenly have to go back to work full time like what a jarring thing and you also So it feels like so many of them are meant to just give up any connection to their real lives.

37:53Like the dads are going back to playing football every week. Yeah. And the mum is just like, no, this is the time. And that means I have to look after this baby 24 hours a day. And so one of the things I'd worried about is that I'd felt like I'd worked so hard to like find myself is that I was worried that I was going to lose myself. And so I didn't because I was straight back into it. Nothing kind of stopped. And also, though, for a decade, you'd built that momentum of, you know, of your brand. Yeah. And you don't want to take a year out. That's a long time to not be available, to not take opportunities, to not be not in people's faces, but certainly continuing with that relationship.

38:33I think it's also a fear that I wasn't going to want to go back. And so I'm glad that I did it. It was a bit it was maybe a bit brutal and it was a bit too soon, but it meant that I didn't ever lose myself and I didn't ever. But I was worried that I wouldn't want to. And I was worried that I would lose the nerve maybe a little bit. And also, I mean, I'm so lucky that this is my job because it is just, you know, back then it was just 20 minutes going to a club, doing a set. And I could be with her for the rest of the time. And also I could pick and choose a bit what I was doing. There's been many jobs when I would not want to go back to it a month after having a baby.

39:09So you said when you were pregnant, you felt really strong on stage. how did it feel postpartum being on stage it felt I mean it's such a blur

39:25and how it was it happened

39:31I think at that point you just think good for me to be standing here who knows you'll have to ask the crowd I have no idea I mean probably not my top my brain wasn't operating at full capacity um I did we did take Mabel to Edinburgh when um she was like nine months old and um did a full run there and actually it was people are like I can't believe you did that and actually it was it was amazing it was my favorite Edinburgh's I think it really Edinburgh can become so like you're so self-absorbed you're so in this bubble of you know yourself and how many stars you've got and blah blah blah and um you just have this baby and so all these other like big babies around you you just don't take in because all that matters is keeping care of this baby and And, you know, I would go and do my show and then I'd come back and then Bobby would go do his show.

40:16And it kind of it kind of worked. It's got much harder now because we need child. Like at the beginning it worked out and then now it's very difficult because we need child care in the evenings. Because she needs to sleep in her bed. She needs to sleep in her bed. Yeah, exactly. For the first few months it was and we weren't doing it every night. It was it was a thing to do to try and, you know, do it when you could. and make some money but yeah it was a thing that I'm really I'm really glad that we did I think yeah yeah I think so it was a bit mad yeah but the clubs were so supportive they give us a room and it just means you're with your baby all the time well how special though for her to be around that environment as well an environment that you love yeah who doesn't want to be in a sticky basement when you're a newborn baby but no it was fun and it was um it was a bit mad but yeah now I try and keep her at home in her bed and um yeah we have we have really good babysitters some of them we've had since like the very beginning yeah it's like chaos organizing it but um but the thing is that's the only way you're ever going to be able to do it is that support network around you yeah you know and when you work different hours and those opportunities aren't and nine to five you've just got to do what you what you have to that's it you just that's exactly it you just have to make it work yeah making it work let's talk about co-parenting because obviously when that shift happens what you set out what it what you imagined parenting to look like shifts with that yeah and that's a massive leap right it's one thing to end a relationship but it's another thing to kind of go actually now what i thought this was going to look like is different yeah and i've heard you talk before about bobby when he would have mabel to start with he'd be doing that in your home and you'd kind of leave so they had their time together but that's a journey in right is figuring out how that looks yeah at the beginning it was brutal like Bobby was so so good for all of Bobby's flaws in other ways he's like exceptional in that he he moved out and he let us stay in the home like he knew that that would be like really hard for me and it would be hard for her and so he moved out and he would when I would go away for work he would come and stay and yeah there'd be days and it'd be Mabel's his time with Mabel and I'd have to go and sit in a coffee shop and I just sob because I just think you know if I hadn't made these choices I could be with my baby right now you know like it's exceptionally um it's exceptionally hard to be I have this conversation with people a lot where they say oh it must be so great getting that time away from your child um you know you get a bit of time to be you and then I just always think instead married couples should be like why are we doing everything together like if that's what we We have that option available to us.

43:02You know what I mean? It's like forced on us. Why aren't you guys doing that? I don't understand. You're trying to do everything together. Go in and have some time, you know. I don't want to have time away from her that's forced. But yeah, it felt really, it always felt really important that she has a wonderful relationship with him. That's always felt incredibly important. And he feels the same about me. And we are, yeah, very supportive of each other's happiness as well. which I think is, I mean, it's not always been easy, but at the end of the day, I think underneath it all, we do want each other to live full good lives.

43:38Well, because you know that that fills us through to Mabel. This is exactly it. And, like, I've gone on trips, like, snowboarding with friends, and he's like, yeah, do it. You love that. You'll come back and you'll be energised, and that will be a brilliant thing. And I think one of the things I've really had to work on is, like, sometimes you can get a bit, like, in your head. You can be like, oh, you know, this is so hard and it's so difficult. And then you just you just have to reframe it and just be like, no, you're so lucky. And like there's times like in the middle of the night when you're on your own and she's sick or she won't sleep.

44:07And you're just like, oh, God, you know, if I had a partner, it'd be so much better. And then you just think, if Bobby would be here, we'd be arguing and it would be so much worse. I can just do this myself and it's calm and fine. And so it's just always trying to reframe it in that way is what I'm trying to do, basically. As Mabel gets bigger and, you know, life continues, you'll find new ways continuously. Yeah. of working together yeah that's that's exactly it and there's going to be challenges for sure but um but yeah I'm so it feels a bit like we're out of the the woods a little bit yeah and that can feel so far away I think when you first take a step into that world you know what I mean that the idea of of stepping through and going the other side of a break and things being calmer and working together it can feel like really far and a giant leap yeah it it was I can't even put myself back back there right now it just it felt but it just I just knew it was the right thing which made it easy because it was the right thing for Mabel and then it's very difficult because you have people kind of in your ear and you read things and people saying you know you should stay together for the kids and all this kind of thing like that is such a big rhetoric that's still that's still around and I just disagree with it so strongly I think it's so important that you're your happiest best self and that she grows up seeing two I think now she's going to see two like healthy functioning adults and hopefully you know we'll find other relationships and we'll be happy and we'll be able to have like the the knowledge and the the peace to find partners where it's like very stable and she'll see that.

45:47Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

45:58Talking about dating, how is that as a mum? Is it different to pre-mum life? It's so different. It's so funny. I was, before when I was single, I was just like, you know, you just do whatever, you don't even think about it. And then I kind of came out of this marriage and I did like a very foolishly like they thought I'd be married forever you know like I just thought we'd make it work and I it would be forever and so suddenly I found myself single and I like took on this kind of um role as like prude mother you know like excuse me I'm a mother you know like the idea of having sex with somebody or like I was like I couldn't even wrap my head around it it just felt so alien you know like I'd been in a monogamous relationship for over a decade it just felt crazy like well and dating now is it very different to what dating used to be like before anyway yes because also I have this bar and before I you know like I was just I'll help them oh you know I'll be with this person who will work it out you know I was in my early 20s it's chaos and now I have this bar of I know I've learned that love isn't enough and like that sounds brutal but it's it's true you know you have to you have to have other other things with it that need to tick the tick the boxes and I had to learn that the hard way but um yeah now I just know so much more and so it's it's really hard to to let go but I think that's a good thing I'm just very particular I think because in order to bring me and Mabel's life is so wonderful that to bring anyone into it they'd have to be so great I love that you describe your life in that way I think for anyone listening who might be in a in a position where they know they have to get out but the idea of getting out is too big yeah you know that thought of will we ever find our feet will we ever be happy you don't have to stay in an unhappy place no it's so much better it's you feel so much stronger and you feel so much like it's the piece I have a podcast about dating single ladies in your area with my friend Amy and we talk about the piece that you can be whatever is happening it's peaceful you can create your own peace and you don't ever have to get back into that situation again and that's a thing that and you know what comes with that is there's an element of loneliness at times like it's so brilliant and full-on you know and hard and then I'm wonderful and then you put them to bed and it's very quiet and that's something I and I'm so lucky I'm out like so much with work but on those evenings when I'm home I have found that a bit tricky when I'm like now she's in bed like my buddy's in bed and you can't go anywhere and so that is that is trickier I think and but you know you just have to learn how to be with yourself and it's what is kind of good now is there is the apps and things and so you don't have to be going to bars or doing all these things you can try and you can meet somebody when you're at home you know like all these things are available and I just think that peace is just the most the most important thing you know like and then you will be you will be your best self with your with your child you know like I wouldn't have been I would have been such a worse parent if I had stayed in that relationship because I wouldn't have had any space I think maybe I am so much happier and it's it's hard and there's so much factors to take into account like like other reasons why people would stay in relationships aren't right like financial and things like that like it's a very um it's not an easy um decision but um but yeah I uh I do recommend it if you can it's also interesting I guess in terms of dating now I don't know about you but when I was younger I feel like dating was all about finding someone being good enough for them to ask you to marry them you know and then persuading them to have a baby that's what we were doing whereas I imagine dating now you're not chasing that yeah now it is about pure connection do you know what i mean it's not it's a very different thing and it's crazy that as young women that's kind of where i know even in my early 20s i was thinking of i want to have i do want to have a child so and when will you ask me yeah exactly the power is all on the other side yeah and now i don't i don't need anybody yeah like it's only if they're going to make our lives better which is gonna be hard to do guys like all the best with that um but um but yeah I mean the the thing is like I I did want more children and that is something that I would be open to but you know there's so many other ways of of doing it like if I was to meet someone with kids or you know I'm open to adopting and so and also you know I have I have enough I have it all so it's a weird thing where you just suddenly I was talking to um Rosie Jones about it at the beginning of the year and I was in a bit of a grump I uh I gave up drinking for like six months and six months months yeah nearly nearly five and a half I think I'd found myself you know like every evening having a couple of drinks yeah and to try and escape maybe and I needed to like sit with those feelings and I cannot tell you how grumpy I was for about three months I was complaining to everybody and I was being so grumpy but it was like I had to just like go through it I think and feel it and feel like my my annoyance and my frustration about the the feelings and you know and I I from the beginning was very much like the next person I meet has to be my husband and I'm not gonna make him another mistake again I'm not going to fall for anything and I'm gonna just meet the right guy and it was just too much and Rosie was like you're in this amazing stage of your life and you need to reframe it because I felt quite fearful about it and she was like no it's actually a really positive thing like anything can happen that's amazing like you like any wonderful thing could happen and you're looking for the perfect person for the rest of your life but that doesn't necessarily exist you might meet someone that's wonderful like you don't look back at bobby as a mistake you know i think we both kind of grew up together and you might meet somebody else that you're meant to take the next the next chapter with and then you meet someone that's you know when you're 60 or 70 and you just don't know what's what's going to happen now and um so i think that really helped to kind of reframe it a bit but ideally I just meet the right person and then we can just call off the search you know what I mean like ideally that just happens but um if not we'll go with Rosie

52:26has motherhood been what you thought it would be no no I really thought it would be it's it's incredibly hard at times and it's so tiring and I just I really miss like sitting down and watching TV, like I miss that so much. And it's the endless tasks are crazy. But I did think it would be, and I only have one child, so I think it is different. But I did, I just thought, I just couldn't comprehend the love of it. I just didn't, I just didn't, I'm such a, I don't know what the word is, but I'm so bad at imagining what things are like until they're actually happening. I just couldn't imagine it. And then now she just makes everything better.

53:08it's wonderful I wish she could be with me actually I take that back I don't wish there's things you have to do but yeah just having her around is great it's better than I thought it would be for sure Are you proud of yourself and the love that you are? I I think so you know like you're always trying to to be to be better and I my mum is I think it's she's always thinking about snacks and all these kind of things I'm not necessarily the best at like planning and having everything ready are you still worried that you're not living up to your mom's standards I think it's like sometimes like leaving the house can be so hard and overwhelming and then you're like oh my god I forgot the I forgot the yogurt drink you know what I mean like oh you know like a mom should have all the snacks and all the things you know and I'm not necessarily really the best at thinking of all of that but I'm so much better than Bobby um so in that respect there's a very low bar that I can I also think on that logistical level you've got to let yourself off the hook yeah like a few weeks ago I forgot it was on uniform day today I forgot the football kits yes the kids should all be on top of their own you know their own stuff but it is that thing that the balls get dropped, but it's about really figuring out what are the...

54:33Someone said to me once about these glass balls and these plastic balls, right? The glass balls are the ones that have to stay in the air. They are so fragile. You cannot let them drop. A PE kit, yeah, that's a bit of a plastic ball. It's fine. But actually being there and providing love and presence and guidance, that is the glass ball. PE kits, whatever, they'll get over it. So what? You know? It's fine. It's a bit embarrassing that you've not gone in uniform, but they know that they're love. Havoc to building, actually. They're going to be very good characters, yeah. Harriet, I have no doubt, just from this one conversation, that the things that are important are your glass balls and you are keeping them in the air.

55:19Thank you. Thank you, yeah. It just sometimes can feel so chaotic, you know. You're just like, oh, God, you've got to keep everything right. and everything gets out of a little bit out of control you know it can feel like and then you're like I've just got to make sure that everything in her life is calm and that you come home and that you're present and that you're stable and I've given her my eczema you know just one more thing to feel guilty about just another thing to add to the list and so um and so yeah it's a thing where I'm always trying to improve in my in my life I guess I'm always trying to get better at everything I guess that's why I like stand up it's a thing you can always try and get better at and so I see parenting is the same thing and Bobby is sometimes very helpful in this like he's very he's very open-minded and he's always kind of reading about things and being like actually this is a better way of framing it or I read I read this thing and so that's that is very helpful.

56:18Sounds like you're still both very thoughtful towards each other. Yeah definitely I had my um I've been having my flaws redone the last two days and he's been so sweet he's kind of come around and um he uh yeah sat in to help with it then he pulled he carried all these pallets in and you know his thinking is that I'm the mother of his child and so it's the best thing for Mabel if you know it's her flaw as well so I feel so lucky for that like I definitely you know I've obviously made a lot of mistakes but I picked somebody who um is a great great dad and it's been a road, but he means really well and he's very kind to me when he's taking his pills.

57:14Which is the real him, you know, which is the real him. Yeah. Do you realise that you're enough as a mum? Oh, God. I am. Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah, I think so. I have grown up so much through being a parent and having to like, you know, like really like pull myself together. And so, yeah, you know, that not every day, but but yeah. If you could write a letter on being a mum, who would it be to and what would you say? I think it would just be to me, you know, like past me, I guess, either. Sorry, this is the most emotional interview. I'm so sorry that I've done this to you. I listened to some of your other episodes and people weren't sobbing the whole way through what is happening.

58:09it would be to me in the past you know just to say that everything's going to be okay I guess it will all work out for the best yeah because the fear is the fear right it's the fear yeah there's so there's so much fear and anxiety and I think I'm one of the hot like I have anxiety and I and it's been worse and better at different points and I think having a child is something so unknown and so scary and actually I think and one of the things I say to friends that have anxiety is that actually um it's not an alien thought when you have a child it's been an hour um it's I think I think what can be really overwhelming is the anxiety that comes when you have a child if you've never experienced anxiety or haven't had very much it can be very because you know you are obviously always thinking about the worst things that can happen just to keep the child safe.

59:02Your brain is putting you in that place. Whereas if you've had anxiety in your life and you're worried about having a child because of the anxiety that will come, you've already got those anxiety muscles. Like you're already used to it. Like those, those anxious thoughts aren't new. Like you know how to deal with them. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, it does make sense. Harriet, we end the podcast with you completing three sentences. is the first one is being a mum means being a mum means that you will watch so much less tv um but you will be so much happier for it look you'll you'll you'll watch so much less tv that you want to watch actually maybe that's a better way of saying it it's so funny look i think about this often i can remember growing up i know we only had like four or five channels but we used to watch what my parents wanted to watch Yes, I was thinking this exactly the other day.

59:58No, I don't understand how I'm sat down watching Bluey. My mum and dad would not have watched Bluey. I love Bluey. I think the dad is a genius, the mum is amazing, the kids are creative. However, growing up, we absolutely would not have had that. This is so true. All we watch is her shows. I remember Sunday afternoons, it would be like Formula One or something. Yes. That would be all that was on. Or three hours of EastEnders. Yes, exactly. Or omnibus of different things. Even though you've watched it in a week, so um so yeah i miss tv i'll come back to it at some point yeah you will yeah uh the next sentence is since having a child i since having a child i've grown up i guess and i i didn't i for so much of my 20s like i didn't want to grow up i didn't want to kind of be the adult and actually i love it it's it's great it's nothing to be kind of afraid of you know like I was so worried about losing my freedom and not being able to go clubbing.

1:01:00I haven't been clubbing in 10 years. You know what I mean? I didn't want to go clubbing really. You think you're going to lose things and actually you gain things. It's not things that you ever wanted to do. If you still want to do them, you can do them. It's all possible. It's just how you frame it, I think. Yeah. And I'm happy when? I'm happy when I'm with Mabel, you know. but ideally I'm sat down. We're together but I'm not chasing her around somewhere. We went to this Gaby's Dollhouse screening the other day and she ran off and then I saw her looking at me like, I'm going to run and I was like, God, God damn it.

1:01:41You know, when they're looking at you and they're like, yeah, I'm going to run. So when you're not chasing after a child and you're sat down and you're together and it's peaceful. Those moments of calm. Yeah, for one minute a day. I'm so happy. Harriet, thank you so much. Thank you. I honestly, like I say a lot about people coming on and just sharing so openly and honestly, but you've really, I feel like you've really given us the picture of your heart. I really do. Like it's not often I just sit here and laugh and weep with someone. And thank you because I do feel like when it comes to divorce, when it comes to separation, when it comes to co-parenting, not a lot, not enough is said about it, which means that so many people stay in situations where they're not happy.

1:02:24So many people try and work through this murky time, not really knowing how to, or that there will be happiness at the other side. So thank you for coming on and just sharing us more of your heart. Thank you so much. Thank you.