How can we help men and boys with their mental health? Parenting SOS with Dr Alex George.

0:06Dr Alex George: Hello and welcome to another episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, Parenting SOS. November is Men's Mental Health Awareness Month, so we thought now would be a good moment to open up a really important conversation. Suicide is a leading cause of death for men under 50 in the UK, a heartbreaking reality that shows just how vital it is to talk openly about men's mental health. Starting these conversations early can really make a difference. So joining me today is someone who knows better than most how important these conversations can be. Until recently, he served as the UK government's youth mental health ambassador.

0:40Dr Alex George: It's Dr Alex George. Hello, Alex.

0:44Giovanna Fletcher: Hi there. Thank you so much for having me, G. It's so nice to see you again. I feel like we've got paths across some different occasions. It's so nice to see you.

0:51Dr Alex George: I know. And this is our third podcast together,

0:53Giovanna Fletcher: which is uh which is lovely you came on the stomp cast we had a good old stomp actually didn't we

0:59Dr Alex George: we did i've just literally been out just now with my dog uh who just loves every single muddy pole he can't actually walk around any of them he just has to dive straight in what is it with dogs the

1:08Giovanna Fletcher: same with rollo it's like if there's a path and there is like dry land either side it's like i would take that but the dog is like no it's the direct route to the puddle and out of it i feel like it's some sort of like a fight against authority almost i know but i also do want to

1:23Dr Alex George: just go out in my wellies and join them sometimes you know what i mean just that that does look like fun it reminded me today of of when uh the kids were younger and just having to stand next to the puddle while they jumped up and down that's definitely what it felt like with deus today

1:35Giovanna Fletcher: yeah yeah well i mean look you are a proper stomper i mean you've stomped up some serious hills mountains and all over the place you really are you are an og stomper to be fair you are an OG stomper a proper one a proper stomper a proper stomper there we go I'll take

1:50Dr Alex George: it I'll take it on this podcast because of the nature of the podcast we talk a lot about maternal mental health and uh the statistic that sort of I heard many years ago which is why we started doing this podcast I talked to you about it before uh that is the leading cause of death in new months within the first year is suicide um that is a shocking statistic but this month is men's mental health awareness and there's so many other statistics that are now being talked about and really highlighting how important it is for men to be talking about how they're feeling. The statistics that four in five suicides are by men, that it's the leading cause of death in men under 50, that is so shocking to me, so shocking and as a mum of boys it's you know I have a lot of men in my life it's really alarming yeah i mean first of all um i think it's important to

2:41Giovanna Fletcher: acknowledge the fact that we don't actually talk about um suicide amongst women uh enough and i think sometimes we because we are well-meaning we are trying to focus on the like fact that there is like a runaway issue amongst suicide um in men i think that needs to be done by also but also remembering that it's uh something that happens to women as well like and i've interacted with lots of parents and people who have lost, say, daughters and things. In fact, I was at a talk of the day where a couple had lost their daughter, who's only a teenager, to suicide. So it is very much an issue that women face.

3:17Giovanna Fletcher: And as you said, I actually didn't know that stat until I did Obzengaini. I was a second-year doctor. One of the midwives told me, did you know that actually it's not even the infections or the bleeding afterwards, it's actually suicide is the biggest threat to life for a mother. and i remember how much it struck me then to be honest i was like geez that is um it's a sobering thought but it's important because by people being aware of it it means that people go oh actually i'm experiencing um like a depression i feel very low or i need help and they ask for it because the thing that i certainly i was learning about when i was doing my arms and gynae and they were talking about this is that actually with the right support you can get through that time it is it is a feeling that there's a permanent issue but actually and with the right support you know people do get better so that's really important but I'm really glad to be honest to you that you're talking about this and I think doing this during men's health month I think is a perfect time and opportunity to do so I was joking with you just before we started I'm trying to grow a mustache to give my sport to Movember I don't know whether it's successful or not I trimmed it which I don't know if that means I've failed I took a run at it you know I started this about five days before because I thought I need a running start at this mustache so to see how I literally took a run at it how funny is that I was like this year I know I need a bit more time than everyone else maybe if I start in the summer I'll be really good by November I don't know but you know it really is an opportunity to talk about this and it is important because ultimately and I think this is vital I think some of the things I faced a little bit when I was working kind of the youth mental health space in an ambassador space for those years is that i think sometimes we think that issues faced by a certain demographic is only issues for them so for example women's health issues being women's for women to deal with or um you know or we should only you know for example a good example is that um you know we separate boys and girls in school girls learn about periods and boys learn about everything and i think it's a fundamental error of approach because actually funny enough there's lots of women in my life that i care about and what affects them affects me and i think the other way around is really true and i think there is there's that part of it so i think men's mental health is everyone's problem yeah an opportunity as well but i also think that men have a real opportunity to learn from women because actually we socialize women from a young age to communicate better um i think women are often much more emotionally open and better communicators they share their issues better um we unfortunately um do the opposite with men you know i find it fascinating that society we crave men to speak we crave them to speak everyone no one wants people men to die by suicide people want men to be okay and yet we train them ruthlessly to be silent i mean you are naturally trained from a small boy to um to not show emotion and it was it was fascinating i had a conversation in the day and um and i hadn't really thought of this perspective before but if you look and you'll know this if you look at children boys and girls up to the age of kind of four or five they're no different they hold hands they play they hug they kiss each other they fight they run around they cry they shout they laugh they're almost identical then something happens around the age of five six or seven and suddenly the boys start being told what it means to be a boy and boys don't act like that and boys don't cry and why are you acting like a girl and and when you cry it's like come on you need to be a big boy and suddenly we really start just subliminally and actually not so subliminally telling them that to be a boy these are the set of characteristics you need and then what happens is you get older this is reinforced throughout the age you're you're growing up years to feel that the only acceptable form of emotion you can show is anger and if you look at it you watch a football manager on the touchline you know if they're shouting and angry that's fine no one cares but if they start crying it's headline news everywhere and that's because we kind of it's palatable anger in men obviously to an extent but it's kind of like an understood emotion to show sadness or crying is not and what is really interesting is that when i find it really if you actually think about it's really odd we when someone's at the point where they're really low you know we expect them to unlearn everything they've been trained to do and ask for help and say that they're struggling and cry and be vulnerable and be open when they're at the weakest it's hard enough to be vulnerable and open when you feel strong let alone when you feel really low and anyone that struggled with depression or low mood will understand that, that often what you need in the moment is the most difficult thing to do.

7:45Giovanna Fletcher: And I think for men, that is a very important thing. I do not think fundamentally, I do not believe that men and women are that different. We are different. There are things different. I don't fundamentally believe that that biological difference is the driving factor to the suicide rates in men. I think we just train men poorly.

8:01Dr Alex George: Do you think that's it then? It's because we've been trained from such a young age and men have had to act in a certain way that they just they're so then overwhelmed by this feeling and it's very it's interesting isn't it you hear so many people say just talk just open up go to someone but actually that's such a massive step to take like where do you go who who feels like that there's a safe space because people can ask you a few times if you're okay but it's just shut down you know yeah yeah fine yeah look at

8:29Giovanna Fletcher: look at it this way june if you go and and you know when you're at i did a lot of schools and stuff and particularly when I looked at the primary schools I noticed a real difference um and that things are changing because young boys were talking about mental health and I remember I did a talk and I thought I thought you know what I joked at the time and said you know what you can be mental health ambassador I asked this classroom of primary school kids um they're probably the age of eight years old something like that they're pretty young and I said look why is sleep important um you know why do we need sleep and this child this boy put his hands up and said oh dr alex we need to sleep because when we go to sleep um our brain sorts all the files into the filing cabinet so the next day we're ready to have a new day and i just was like that level of like emotional um intelligence that awareness of thoughts even existing or something or or what a thought is or that it's something that the brain must process was something that i didn't even understand at the age of 18 let alone yeah and i think that is a fundamental difference and if you look at young children now who are schooled in that way and that have this i guess modern view of what it means to be a man and a woman i think you see much less difference you see a very very very different thing so it shows you it's proof really that men can talk men are not unable to talk and ask for help it's just bloody hard when you've been trained all your life not to i still found it very difficult as someone that was very open and i'm naturally you know i guess part of it's maybe adhd or whatever my heart on the sleeve kind of person i still found it for many is very difficult to to talk and to to be able to to um say that i'm not in a good place because i think it caused a lot of shame you don't feel like a man and i've had to challenge that but do you think

10:18Dr Alex George: you know your your personal circumstances with your brother like you know the extremes of that you know what happens you know how important it is to speak yeah well I think you look at it this way

10:29Giovanna Fletcher: um you know and I think what's really important is I'm actually excited about mental health and mental fitness because I think the opportunity when you actually mental health and like I'd like to talk about this mental health really is for everyone because actually there's a beautiful opposite side to illness that is mental fitness and that is achievable to people but you know on that point it is really important because there's situations and like if you think about this when brother was 19 years old he decided to make a decision that was irreversible there is no coming back from that choice there's very little in life you can't either come back from learn from grow from or change or make some sort of amends irreversible decisions so he'd rather take that decision than ask for help and i think if you want to understand i guess for people to understand the levels of ingrainedness that this stigma goes that is a good example the feeling that i would rather do this than i would tell people that i'm in a terrible place some of that is also because there's a feeling of permanence and this is why i alluded to at the start is that i think the the cruelty of things like depression is that it tricks you into thinking what you feel is permanent and there's a physiological reason that happens so if you catch um a virus right if we we're in cold and flu season right now so gee if you got up the flu and i hope you don't if you got the flu i'm pretty sure what you'd want to do is curl up go to bed stay away from people recover eat some food a little bit of food have some soup try and recover right be on your own isolate part of that is self-protective but also it is a physiological protective mechanism mechanism for the tribe for the herd because if you stay and you keep chatting with everyone acting normally you'll give everyone else the virus the thing about depression is it's so clever because it mimics the virus so in a sense like what depression does it tricks you into wanting to be alone to be silent to withdraw to stop doing things like exercising to stay inside and it does that because in a way it's a faulty response to the illness and the odd thing is if you look at it this way what is the cure for depression it is the opposite to what you do when you're depressed it is human connection it's moving outside it's talking to people you know and often i would say to people if you're feeling low and struggling with your mood don't ask yourself what do i feel like doing now instead ask a better question if i was happy what would i be doing and that is a much better approach do what you do when you're happy don't do what you do when you're sad there's a simple shift but that means it's a huge difference your your actions should dictate your feelings your feelings should never virtually never dictate your actions absolutely what's

13:10Dr Alex George: interesting for me is that it feels like a lot of men do a lot of um sports together you know a lot of men that i know they'll go off and they'll play football together or they'll have nights where they do things or they'll go watch the football and uh i find it really interesting in even with brighton and hove what they've done to create the advert that they've done in terms of talking and stuff it feels like men can be together a lot but completely block out the actual space for chat or a chat with importance look at it this way anything about the stigma that still exists and

13:44Giovanna Fletcher: the kind of pressures of what it is to be a man how many gay footballers male footballers do you know that currently play football how openly gay uh uh women's footballers do you know loads yeah i i couldn't i've watched football for many years and i cannot think of any footballer in the premier league ever that has been openly gay while they've played football and you know i know this is not necessarily what we're talking about here in terms of like the homophobia in a sense but it does show you how much stigma is very loaded in the male space and i think what is expected of a man is is still it's still there we haven't tackled some of these taboos and these views what's interesting is that if you think about it you're kind of like what drives this because you are if you go and ask most footballers and you said like if your um center back was said he was gay would you care i'm pretty sure that they wouldn't i mean 99 people say actually no so the driving force from this thing is almost this passed on invisible um pressure and expectation that we need to drop because it doesn't really serve anyone you know it doesn't serve anyone and i think the fear of being open which is what you're talking about there is what drives a lot of problems so you know men will often chat about there's tiktoks about it joking about it right with the there's tiktoks i see where the girlfriend will say to the boyfriend like oh my god dave's divorced you know what happened is he okay like why did he get divorced and go i don't know but what do you talk about well the football you know so i think sometimes we end up on very surface level stuff and jokey stuff which is fine but i think because we've not been given the skills men don't know how to do it like interesting the john can come back tom can come back from being with

15:28Dr Alex George: his mates and i'll and i'll be in that sort of situation where i'll say did you ask if they're okay you know what's going on are they okay he'll just be like if he wants to talk about it he'll he'll he didn't bring it up so if he wants to talk about it he will but oh no because a woman

15:42Giovanna Fletcher: yeah and that's no and that's no just when tom talk because i think that's generally what no no no yeah but the truth is they won't yeah they won't i mean vast majority of time people won't you have to i have to ask the question is why i think one of the best campaigns um that has ever been created is a very simple one by time to change which is ask twice so you know you say to someone how you're doing gee yeah i'm all right yeah but gee you know you're not yourself today i know you're pretty well you don't seem yourself like how are you really doing what is actually going on and you'll find 95 of people will open up to that um secondary question because you're effectively saying cut the nonsense let's get through to the real conversation here and i think men you know um i think men need to do that better and i think if you're you know if you're you think you listen to this you've got your husband or partner or his brother or uncle whatever it might be i think when you have this conversation you say oh did you ask dave what happened you know just i think just a little bit of like teaching of some of this because they don't know the skills of it it's like well actually you know maybe you should ask dave how he's doing because i know you think he will but often guys don't say so perhaps what you could do next time is say look dave i know you say you're fine but like what's going on and i think people really really overthink asking about mental health like i was like if i walk in if i turned up to the stomp cast with you in recording and i was limping you probably say to me what's happened to your ankle like i just think we think it's deep a lot of time when it's not that deep i don't think it's that big a deal to just ask like how you're doing like if someone doesn't want to talk about it they'll tell you like that yeah have a people have people have the ability to manage their own sharing like if they don't want to talk about i say tom thanks so much for asking but not today or can we talk about it next week or i don't really want to chat about it right now but they'll still feel seen the important thing about that i wouldn't underestimate is that again for those experienced depression and struggles one of the hardest things you don't feel seen you feel invisible in the sense you feel the world's carrying on but you're just there watching it and suffering when someone goes actually do you know what i can see you i see you right now and even if they don't want to talk about i see you right now that i think is a big thing so part of that makes them feel seen but also that can sometimes be the tipping point for someone going actually do you know what people are starting to notice i don't feel great maybe it is time i get help perhaps i should go someone so don't underestimate the power of voice i think the thing about mental health is that it's completely different to you can see a broken leg on an x-ray you require voice and words to understand a mental illness and so don't underestimate that power of just that simple question of like how are you actually doing

18:12Dr Alex George: talk to me it's funny isn't it because i feel like when women are added into the mix those conversations conversations will happen pretty much straight away if i if i know i'm seeing a certain group of guys i know that we are going we're going in you know there's no surface level chat or maybe a tiny bit at the start but tom will come back from the loo and we are already in there you know i and i do um think that in the large part women don't shy away from that stuff because we know the power of just talking how do you how do you approach it like how do you like

18:45Giovanna Fletcher: i'm interested so when you feel with the girls like if you know that one of the girls is going through a difficult time but how do you approach it like what do you what do you say oh god i mean

18:54Dr Alex George: And it depends on the situation, but I would never shy away from it. Also, I think I've learned over the years that if you are aware of a situation, then that person knows you're aware. And if you're not saying something, it's almost worse. You know what I mean? Whereas if you just tackle that chat straight out, straight, like head on, then you're all talking straight away. Otherwise, it's the elephant in the room and it feels just heavy, I think.

19:19Giovanna Fletcher: the other thing the number of times as well where um where someone says something sometimes in a group of you and when we have had conversations as guys and then someone else pipes up and you had no idea that they'd gone through something or something they'd yeah and like there's then this like shared feeling um and it doesn't have to be like super heavy i mean like a lot of the time when i'm talking about my struggles and i've gone through and still go through quite a few i kind of do it through the place of humor as well and you don't have to sit there crying i'm just like hey look like bloody hell like at this point with my list of uh diagnoses you know it's what i don't have and all this kind of stuff right it's kind of like it doesn't have to be so heavy i think you know obviously there's appropriate times for humor and stuff like that but i do think we we worry too much about it and that will change i honestly think young kids are different i think the growing up certainly in the right environments i think it's just changing i don't think it'll be i have my hope is that in 10 15 years or even sooner it just won't be a big deal just talk how you're doing in a way an alien came to earth i think we'd probably think it was bizarre that we were so comfortable talking about like physical health but talk to the minor oh i can't deal with that like oh goodness i don't want to talk i think i think we'll look back on it genuinely i hope that you know in 10 15 years we'll kind of look back and almost think like bloody hell like that's so weird we just why are we so weird about that thing it was not a big deal and we were so

20:32Dr Alex George: weird about it i think we've come a long way though you know i think if you if you think about the stiff upper lip that we are not there now at all you know we're so far away from that so I do think we are we aren't making strides it's now kind of um you know making sure that we're actually it's hard isn't it because we I feel like like you said with the younger generation we really are having those chats but it's how we help the generations that came before that

20:56Giovanna Fletcher: really and these things have to lead towards change as well I mean one of the things I saw literally before we started this conversation that it shocked me but didn't surprise me is that there are now adh there's a significant number of um nhs adhd um uh clinics that are closing the doors entirely to new patients applying um for help and the average wait time in england uh according to the bbc that i've read this article if that's right is eight years for an adult eight years and i like people just to qualify like why how crazy that is and the reason it's so frustrating with the men not that adhd is a mental health problem but i say neurological experiences and mental experiences are not treated in the same way is that it's it's it really does have a big impact on your life like look at it this way so um this is a recent meta-analysis that showed that a woman with adhd will on on average live nine years less a shorter life than someone without adhd so nine years if you think why well i mean the the paper looked was talking about um some of the reasons that they believe that happens and many of those come down to if you have um and managed i think i'd the paper looked into people with diagnosis of adhd that weren't treated but i'd also say imagine people that are not diagnosed that have it um it's down to things like the impulsivity partly risk-taking the way that you live your life like being able to organize plan um making um because if you think about this adhd is a disorder it's best thought of as a disorder of regulation um and so it's a dysregulated uh state so the ability to things like plan health things to look after yourself to make balanced decisions um if you look at some of the risks so people with adhd adults with adhd um around 40 of adults with adhd have alcohol misuse disorder or higher so things like addiction higher end up in prison all sorts of different issues arise when it's not managed and for men there's nine years for women and seven years for men so there's less for men but still seven is a long time now i think it'd be really interesting to look at why there's a difference i mean if that's an institutional sexism of some sort that's come into them it must there's something there that's called that two years is significant there's some reason it'd be interesting to look at that but i think what it shows you is a to anyone that thinks adhd is a bit of a laugh and of a quirk i promise you it isn't well look at that look i mean that's plain as day nine years is a bloody long time um i mean the average life expectancy is 80 so it's

23:30Dr Alex George: like i mean it's more than 11 what i find really uh tricky about it is that they uh you know there's so many people saying oh there's so many people being diagnosed now it's because we weren't diagnosed back then you know there's we've had decades where people weren't diagnosed and we're just basically catching up with people that should have been diagnosed a long time ago and we've

23:47Giovanna Fletcher: completely screwed women because actually if you look at it around heart like 50 of people who have adhd a man and 50 of women roughly it's about that it's if there's not really a strong tie to be man or woman certainly that i've seen it's pretty much 50 50 and yes and yet i can tell you for certain that the vast majority of people that are diagnosed in the years gone by will be men why because we have a false view that we think that an adhd kid is a boy bouncing around the room only about 10 of people who have adhd have external hyperactivity most of it is the internal experience i mean i know this is not an adhd conversation so i won't go like too far down that route but i what i will say is that i mean when you're looking at some things to tackle and reasons why i believe we still got a way to go i absolutely agree with you by the way i think the last five years we've made 50 years of improvement now what we need to see that lead is to action you know is it acceptable that adhd clinics are saying no uh we cannot have any more people on the waiting list bearing in mind that life expectancy is nine years shorter bearing how much it affects their lives and not and affects their families and is that acceptable you know So time and time again, people message me and say, oh, this shortage of ADHD meds have been out of stock for three months.

24:56Giovanna Fletcher: Would we accept if we ran out of diabetic meds for three months? No, we wouldn't. We shouldn't. So I think what we've got to see is a change of things like, right, we're talking about it. Let's make sure the school systems undergo the reform that they need to approach it with the whole school approach of health, including mental health. And let's make sure that our services are providing the level of care and support they should be. that's something that as important as your mental health deserves as postnatal support and it's also for things like adhd and services that support men's mental health like put your money where your mouth is i guess is the point i'm trying to say absolutely i know there's lots of chat about

25:31Dr Alex George: what it takes to be a man like what is a man but i feel like another big conversation for men is what it what does it mean to be a dad and one thing that people don't know is that actually there's that depression for dads can happen with a new baby as well you know we talk about internal mental health but actually paternal mental health is also something that the men really struggle

25:51Giovanna Fletcher: with absolutely i mean look i'm on my so my god child um cara and i also my um uh godson uh heath who's born a little bit later um you know they i see their family and i like adam and emma are my very very good friends and um you know i can see the pressure i mean emma's amazing but i've seen the pressure that she's been under but i also seen it with him i've known adam what his whole life and i've seen the pressure and things like the lack of sleep but also the this new thing that's really important to you that to worry about and he's working and it's a lot and at times you know um he won't be saying it's been a lot for him uh and so you know i think it is really important to recognize and i think part of it like i'm not a father so i can only look at it and i can only look and see from the experience that i've witnessed and things that i've read but looking at him i mean there's a lot of pressure to make sure that you're showing up in the right way and that you're doing the right thing and that's important of course but that pressure like men can be very hard on themselves anyway and i think if you're kind of hiding the fact that you're struggling already and you're supposed to be doing a really good job you can feel a lot of shame and you feel like you because no one wants to be well certainly i don't think good people want to feel like a bad dad and a bad husband or a bad partner with with a child so i think that's that's a huge that's a huge pressure um and i think also fundamentally for for for men and women when you have children it does just become harder to maintain your mental fitness it does become more difficult and as much as people go hey but just you know carve out that time of day like

27:23Dr Alex George: you know like i love when people say that to us yeah so where is that time yeah just find that

27:29Giovanna Fletcher: time it's like yeah sure why meanwhile i'm like got nappy in one hand and i'm trying to like clean the milk bottles on the other hand it's like i i think you have to and adam said it's true it's kind of learning to accept that you just don't sleep for a couple of years like and you have to find and he says like it is you know like he's getting he said he's getting better at finding some of that time and they kind of they manage it by like he'll come home and take over the kids for a bit and then then he'll have a little bit of time later and i think there's some things but i think some of the reality of it is accepting that it's okay that it's pretty hard to be a parent and it's pretty hard to look after your mental health perfectly i've not seen any of my friends or people in my life do it and just be like hey that was so easy like i feel great all

28:11Dr Alex George: the time it changes everything it's not you know your life doesn't look like it it did before you know even joining your mates down towards the football that is a thing then right there should like mums feel mum guilt and i and i do believe that there is there's at least something that happens for men when they that that realization that they they can't just do that freely actually because then if you are to step out of the house for that then there's a knock-on effect of well

28:38Giovanna Fletcher: who's going to look after the kids do you think like of all the conversation you've had i guess speaking also to men but also women with this do you think that men struggle to let go of the past

28:47Dr Alex George: life i feel like women will feel like men have it easier in terms of being able to have access to their past life a lot more right i feel like women and but this is part of the conversation right because that's my interpretation that's my my understanding but you know i've got no doubt that having three kids has completely changed both of our lives you know um uh but then i think for us we've never been overly sociable you know we have our things that we love doing but you know if we can be home together then we're happier um but there is you know at that point when you have children i think resentment creeps in you know who's getting up in the night who's not getting up in the night who's able to just walk out the door who's not you know i think but then you've also got the the weight of responsibility of you're not able to just go and do things anymore you know you have to factor in so much so i do think it is and your relationship you're not

29:42Giovanna Fletcher: each other's number one anymore i think there is there's a feeling like um again just from conversation i had primarily with adam actually he said that the thing that he found most helpful is that you there is a letting go of the previous life and there's an opening of new chapters like that was a great time and i enjoyed my youth and that side of things it doesn't mean you said like doesn't mean you can't enjoy and go do things you said but fundamentally by trying to hold on to that it creates the issues and it can create resentment but he's like by embracing this new part of life and going actually that was a fun chapter but now i'm onto this new bit you open up yeah there might partly i guess maybe a mindset but i can see that because i feel you know especially the traditional model of it right where the mom is expected to cook clean look after the kids the guy goes down the pub right i mean like it's just it's kind of great i mean i'm sure it does still happen but it's crazy to think that that was seen as normal really and you can see quite rightly though that develops resentment i mean what would you say what advice would you give to like and say say like new dads who want to like be a good dad and do a good job but also kind of i guess to kind of like look after themselves throughout that time like what what that means you've got you've done this for years now what do you say about it i would say that communication is

30:51Dr Alex George: everything because if you talk you're able to sort of break through things really really quickly whereas otherwise little resentments can build up really really quickly and it can just feel like you're carrying so much and often what you're carrying really is the fact that you're both really overtired really overworked and you know everything is just a little bit crazy it's nothing to do with the other person it's just that that's where your anger and your resentment can actually that's the only way you can come out um so i do think being able to talk through things is really important um and also one thing i do think we really overlook is the fact that a lot of men the majority of men will have seen their partner give birth and i think that is such an amazing beautiful thing like one one every minute is my favorite thing to watch it's awesome and yeah and And I used to love that moment of seeing the partners literally be so different to the person they were an hour ago.

31:45Dr Alex George: Do you know what I mean? That kind of that melting, that vulnerability that is just so gorgeous. But they have just witnessed. And for some men, it's not a straightforward birth. They have just watched something completely animalistic, completely other that they maybe weren't prepared for. because there's a whole you know the joke thing of our senior favorite pub burning down all that stuff that i think is just ridiculous and all that but the reality is it's a massive thing for

32:13Giovanna Fletcher: for them to to be a part of and see absolutely and i think um like forgetting the jokey side of it i think you know i mean i i did dobson gyne for four months and there was some that's some of the most fun four months i've ever had i absolutely really i was really pleased when i started as a tangent i said to the um consultant uh uh who's an amazing guy i said to him like please uh by the end do you think i could be able to do a whole c-section like if i can do it safely and he said yeah absolutely we're training to do it and by the last day i did a whole obviously he was like hand-holding the whole way through and you know it was kind of safe but i did um i did a whole c-section it's still one of the best days of my life just that feeling of just being a part of the birth of a human being is just like it is um it's genuinely one of the most incredible things it's just like and i was i'm not was not i'm not the parent i'm there is almost like part of a small part of this process but it is a phenomenal thing to witness and see i think it's still the most crazy thing child like the human being is still just like it still blows my mind but yeah on the other side of it can be really traumatic and i think and i've seen sadly really you know difficult things as well and i think um for for guys you are feeling in that moment quite powerless because in reality um there's very little you can or should do other than providing the support the best you can in reality you kind of are a bystander in this situation sometimes and we have to be honest about that i think there is an element of particularly when things are going wrong you're kind of a bystander there and i think that can be pretty hard it's kind of a traumatic experience i clearly i'm i'm very much acknowledging the brain trauma years with a woman but i think there is an element of bystander and fear and worry and i'm scared this is my my love of my life and you know i think it can be hard and i think you're not expected to shrug that off and because you are there to provide the support and afterwards you're there to provide the support i think probably a lot of men bury that and actually ask them properly like what was that like i think they'd turn around and say like how that's one of the worst experiences

34:01Dr Alex George: seeing someone in that position or my friend chris who uh so uh a female chris um saw her twin sister give birth and she joked with us for a long time that it was the most horrific thing she's ever seen you know and i feel like because it's a twin sister thing she was very she was allowed to say that she could just be honest she absolutely adored her we thought it was the most incredible thing to witness but it was horrific you know uh to to see that to uh whereas i i think and actually i'm thinking about what you were saying at the time i can remember midwives coming in um to check on me after the first birth and then going to tom are you okay because he looked pale and they'd be like for god's sake i have just done all this work so it's not that we are it's not that we're negating the fact that women have gone through something but it is important that actually we also check in on the dads because they have seen something

34:53Giovanna Fletcher: that's you know you said earlier though that actually is funny well what you said the key point about communication isn't it interesting we literally start this conversation about like how we men are just not trained to talk about stuff isn't it fascinating that actually so often this stuff comes back to communication and being able to talk i mean it like i guess it's no surprise in some ways but it is like you know when i try and justify why this is so important schools and why emotional literacy is literally a game i believe game changing for people's experiences in lives understanding and being able to communicate thought feeling um you know if you're feeling jealous what is it you're feeling jealous about how do you communicate that without having a huge argument how do you say that you feel sad without you know lashing out and being you know you know i mean learning to yeah to kind of hold space for a feeling emotion and deal with it and i think that is something that has a knock-on effect to everything and it's literally what you've said there communication if we can communicate well you know i fundamentally believe i'm not an expert in relationships in any way shape or form but i find them fascinating i read a lot of psychology around a lot watch a lot of kind of content around it and you know most relationships fundamentally fall down because of poor communication in some way or another a significant part of the experience is communication and you know it feels like a real shame that actually if you could give people the tools to be able to communicate well and that part of that is communicating with yourself and understanding how you feel and then being able to talk with the other person about it you know how much pain could we avoid you know and how much how much better could our experiences be i think quite significant you know

36:29Dr Alex George: this week's episode is brought to you in partnership with ee so guys this week ee has set us up with Rachel Huggins, co-CEO of Internet Matters, an organisation co-founded by EE who provide parent, carers and professionals with advice and support to keep children safe online. Rachel is here to join us for a brief chat about how we navigate the online world with our children and in relationships with phones. It's a huge topic for parents. Giving a child a phone comes with plenty of worries from inappropriate content to screen time habits and everything in between. But at the same time, we want them to be reachable when they're out of sight and to build a healthy relationship with a device that'll be part of their lives forever.

37:13Dr Alex George: That's where EE's Safer Sims come in. Sims that help moderate usage while safely shielding your kids from harmful content only available on EE. Now, there are three plans, protected, guided and trusted, each offering a different level of independence so your child can explore the world of phones at a pace that feels right for them. Hello, Rachel. Hello. This is such a massive topic. Absolutely. And there's so much to think about, starting with why you think about giving your child a phone in the first place. You know, what do they need it for? And if it's about safety and security and staying in touch with them, that helps to determine what kind of device they get and what features that you need to have.

37:53Dr Alex George: Think about whether they're ready to have a phone in their pocket. And if they are, what you want them to be able to access. You know, there's a big difference between staying in touch with you and then all the other things that a smartphone can do. And all that is really helpful to help you understand what kind of device you should give them and what safety features it needs and controls you need to put in place, whether you want to prevent them from downloading any apps or have an agreement around what time of day you turn the phone off to have a screen-free night. EE Safer Sims could actually offer parents something genuinely useful in this case.

38:26Dr Alex George: For anyone unfamiliar, it blocks harmful content and protects children from scam calls while features like stay connected data mean kids can still message or use maps even if they run out of data. Do you think this kind of safeguarding could help make a child's relationship with their phone healthier? Absolutely. I mean the features you talked about address some of the common issues that children face and also give parents peace of mind. You know our research shows that nearly three quarters of children say they've had a harmful experience online which is a massive number and the controls here can really help as you say block inappropriate content and unwanted contact.

39:00Dr Alex George: So this can help manage what they're able to access and, you know, put parents back in control if they are struggling with online safety and understanding the controls. Those pre-built settings are a real lifeline for parents so they know there are certain things their children can't turn off. But all of that, you know, really needs to go hand in hand with great conversations with children. You know, tech solutions, we say, are always one thing and you need to continue the conversation with your child about the settings, why they're in place, what they're there for and what you're trying to protect them from so they know that it's not all rosy in the garden and there are things that you don't want them to see online.

39:31Dr Alex George: And that's why we've worked with EE to create some resources for families to help parents have good conversations, a framework they can work to, to make sure they are continuing to talk about these issues. Do you have any advice for any parents that don't feel tech savvy enough to install the controls? So I would point them to our website, so internetmatters.org. We have step-by-step guides on about 100 different devices, apps, platforms that parents can use. And they're written in a very easy to understand way with pointers to everything they need to do and pictures of what the screen looks like.

40:04Dr Alex George: But I think, again, one of the really good things is to talk to other parents. So kind of, you know, admitting you're struggling with it because someone else will have had that issue. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. And if you want to learn more and explore more resources from EE and Internet Matters, just search EE Safer Sims. They're the only Sims from a major network designed to help keep your kids safer. moderating usage and shielding them from harmful content, all whilst staying connected on the UK's best network. Thank you so much, Rachel. That's OK.

40:40Dr Alex George: Well, the NSPCC did a survey in 2024, which showed that 47 % of parents of teens and 56 % of parents of 6 to 11 are worried about their child's mental health. And I think when you hear statistics, like the ones that we started the episode with we know what happens to adults especially males who who aren't supported in that way and i and i as a mum of boys i am petrified of one of my kids being part of that statistic you know and and so i think it's so important that we all know what we can do now to help our children when they're younger to to create good good habits healthy happy habits like your book you know and i think that's an amazing resource actually for for parents uh i've been i've been listening to it alex and i i absolutely love it i actually can't wait to give it to to my eldest tonight and just sort of say devour that thank you i appreciate

41:35Giovanna Fletcher: that i mean yeah it's kind of that book has been i'd say everyone you know you know this is a lot of work it is a lot of work to write something but you do you you only do these things because you care and believe there's something important behind it and i i fundamentally believe and i think i guess the yardstick of it is that i genuinely think that i could have experienced a much easier and happier teenage years and 20s if i'd have understood some of the fundamentals from the book that i've written i mean like happy habits is a distillation i think of stuff that we should actually be teaching kids at school i think fundamentally the book shouldn't exist um it should actually be within the school curriculum but let's face the facts it isn't and therefore what do we do do we just like just say oh there we are then i think you know we have to acknowledge that at the end of the day, at the moment, as parents, as hard as it is, you know, as well as everything else you're trying to do, you're trying to support and provide, I guess, frameworks for children to develop the right habits and mindsets and ways of moving through the world to have the best chance to be happy and healthy.

42:32Giovanna Fletcher: And I think that's really hard for a parent to do. And I think that's why resources like this, and I believe this book can make a huge difference. Because if you teach children, children develop the understanding of the science and the reasons behind why we do certain things they stick to it so much better i mean the formation of habits um depends on an understanding of why the habit matters and it's not this stuff is not rocket science it's developing good um habits around sleep around movement nature um connection with others managing emotions and things building up the sense of resilience because you know fundamentally the biggest challenges children face at the moment are that it's on on digital connection too much and obviously the this book is kind of nine to 13, but, you know, realistically, let's be honest, a lot of children are on either iPads or whatever, or they're on social media even when they're too young.

43:19Giovanna Fletcher: And, you know, the reality is there's a huge connection with digital devices, but the disconnect in real life is huge. I mean, children not understanding how to connect with other children. You know, the lack of connection with nature, for example. I mean, you know, nature is one of the most powerful ways to look after the way that you feel. And I think we do actually have to teach children now how to spend time in nature and to create space for that so yeah i mean i i i do you know i really stand by and i believe in what i've put together and written and i feel the feedback i've had already in the first few weeks of it being out has been really positive and children of you know the best testament of it is when you get photos of children who put like um sticky um what's it

43:57Dr Alex George: called note um post-it notes in there and you post notes and they've written in there and all

44:01Giovanna Fletcher: those things the pages are bent over and all this stuff because it means they're reading it and i think that's a good testament to the kind of the feedback so far.

44:10Dr Alex George: Alex I'm going to ask you your most asked questions now because this is something that we do on on Parenting SOS so I'm going to ask you your most asked questions are you ready? Number one is what should I do if I'm worried about someone's mental health?

44:24Giovanna Fletcher: Okay so there's three steps that I take and I advise this for any situation where you're worried about someone first of all most important is trust your gut your gut instinct is so important because 90 of your communication with someone's non-verbal it's how they show up the eye the tone the how they're looking what they're wearing have they shaved and your non-verb you're not your um what's the word um the part of your brain also the subconscious part of your brain is what stores that information and it shows up in gut instinct so if your gut is something's wrong trust your gut that's number one number two is what we talked about earlier ask twice so how are you doing yeah i'm fine yeah gee how are you really doing like i you know you've you don't see yourself what's really going on don't overthink it ask it and number three is be a friend don't fix i think specifically for parents here this is really important so um a psychiatrist that i know put it this way and i thought it was phenomenal and she has a daughter who struggles with anxiety she says i'm a consultant psychiatrist and when i go home i'm not a consultant i'm not a consultant psychiatrist i'm not a mother i'm a friend and that is very very important when it comes specifically to mental health be a friend don't fix you can't fix what's going on in someone's mind you can be a friend to it and it's saying things like hey look um you know how do you feel what is what is getting better look like to you who would you like to talk to i've had a look online and the hub of hope has got these kind of support services do any of them sound helpful to you what would you like to do how can i help you do what you need right now what do you need right now and it's all that kind of feeling of sitting on the shoulder as a friend not saying right you're not well or you know classic you're being bullied gee let's march you into school and speak to the head teacher you know how well does that work is what my mum wanted to do let's march in and speak to the head teacher did that help no um but was it well meaning yes you know so i think that be the friend don't fix and i say that's so but people can remember those steps so hard as a parent isn't

46:13Dr Alex George: it because all you want to do is fix it of course of course it is and that's what that's that but

46:19Giovanna Fletcher: that's also what you're designed to do literally your biology is to fix this problem so don't think there's anything wrong with you you're doing what you should be doing it just it's just so happens with mental health that it often makes it worse i mean look at it this way you know you you you you know your your son comes to you say well i feel really fat i look awful and you're like well no you don't you look you look fantastic you look amazing don't be so silly you're being daft you know you're well meaning in these things you're trying to fix it and and what happens it creates a chasm between experience and understanding and i think it's really it's so i i i'm not a parent again but i i'd imagine it's the hardest thing to do to have to swallow that part and go okay well i'm sorry that you feel that way it must be really hard to feel like that now what what do you want to do about it because you want to dive in and fix it but i think time and time again you know that what the experts have told me in this kind of space is that it unfortunately that makes things worse you have to hold back from that and try and allow space and validate their experience and say well what do you want to do look i've i there's some of these places i've heard of do you look into it what would you like to do because if the person and this is true with adults as well what's really important with someone who's struggling mental illness is they must not lose control because a loss of control is a center of most of the suffering it's a feeling that you have lost the control of your mind your well-being you need to feel that in some sense that you have autonomy and I think that's really important so everything you can do to empower the autonomy will help them come out the other side it's the same with OCD eating disorders fundamentally is a disorder of loss of control it is a feeling that you have lost control no matter what it's about whether it's about the body or an external problem it's a loss of control in the same way that anxiety fundamentally is an intolerance of uncertainty you know there are certain characteristics of certain things but it always comes down to this fact that that person has lost control in some way they've lost autonomy so try as a parent to keep them empowered and that's how you keep them engaged

48:17Dr Alex George: yeah absolutely another question uh that is you're most asked is what small daily habits actually make a difference to mental well-being. I love the fact that in the book that you say, even just about drinking water, drinking a glass of water as soon as you wake up and before you go to bed. I really liked that as a habit because I sometimes take my glass of water up. I don't necessarily drink it, but it's there.

48:38Giovanna Fletcher: I mean, our body is 60, 70 % water, right? And most of us are dehydrated a significant amount of the time. You know, when you wake up in the morning, the first thing you should be doing is having a pint of water, having a glass of water. Your brain needs water to function. It's so important. and it's one of the simple things that we need and we all know it you need you literally die without water and yeah we cut up and most of us will have a coffee first you know you so there's a saying um uh hydrate before you caffeinate and it's very true water before your coffee it's really it makes a huge huge difference but obviously for children they shouldn't be having caffeine but the water's you know a really important one other other aspects i mean one of the most and the reason i started the stomp cast is that fundamentally nature has incredible powerful power for not just healing but but creating happiness and there's good studies around this so the royal horticultural society um studied people who spend time in nature each day some as little as 20 30 minutes outdoors going for a walk in the garden or in the park whatever it might be and they found that those people had significantly lower levels of anxiety and unease and low mood there's significant lower levels of those things but importantly they had much higher levels of creativity of optimism of connection with the world and feeling part of part of the planet and i think it's fundamentally something we've lost we are not designed to live in boxes so morning sunlight being outside we know that that boosts serotonin and morning sunlight helps press down your melatonin levels melatonin is great for feeling sleepy but you don't want it in the morning so it suppresses that so i think getting out for a walk in the morning other simple things you know we are the most disconnected we've ever been um make time for your friends like spend time with other people in some way find ways to connect with other people ideally alien person hug your friends it sounds so simple so you know i you ask people uh do they wish they were less stressed most people would say yes what is one of the biggest most powerful antidotes to stress oxytocin cortisol cannot be high when oxytocin is high it's not possible it is they are opposing so if you're feeling stressed which is why when you hug someone have a cuddle the stress drops away because oxytocin our love hormone rises and it forces cortisol down so it's the effects of simple that's why when you feel rubbish and you sit down with the girl mates or the guy mates and you talk and you laugh and you have a hug and you you know you hug it out that's why you feel so much better because your oxytocin rises it has to suppress the cortisol so connection with the other one and exercise i mean if you were to if you were to put something into a pill and sell it and make a lot of money would be exercise you would be a trillionaire overnight because exercise makes you live longer it makes you produce more happy hormones in your brain increases blood flow in your brain which is good for you increase it supports psychological strength i.e when you exercise you do something difficult you learn you can do difficult things and therefore you build resilience um and it supports every single organ and part of your body you feel better when you exercise if you can if you can exercise a little spend time and hug people that you love when you say goodbye to your mom or your child or whoever it is your best friend hug Hug them, even guys as well.

51:40Giovanna Fletcher: Do you have a hug to your best mate? Why do guys not hug their mates? I just hug your friend. Give your friend a hug. Go for a walk outside. You know, that's really important. And drink some water. Have a pint of water every morning.

51:52Dr Alex George: I think we should give lessons on hugs, though, because we're not talking like a quick little slap on the back, kind of non-committal. A hug and a hold. That's the dream for me. I can hug and hold as many people as possible. That just fills my cup.

52:07Giovanna Fletcher: if you if you've next time you're stressed a good little test i love tests i love playing i love experimenting next time you if you're listening and you feel stressed go to your partner go to your child go to web and say can we have a nice hug hug them and hug them for 10 seconds in your head count to 10 tell me we're gonna have a good long hug here have a cuddle for 10 seconds i want you to monitor your breathing i want you to monitor the muscles of your neck and your shoulder and i want to notice the weight of your mood you know that feeling on your chest and you will feel the oxytocin working you can feel it it relaxes your muscles with what it does your shoulders lower down your breath steadies and you feel a lightness in your chest and that is oxytocin doing its magic another question for you how do you navigate grief and still find moments of joy a fundamental i think i learned um uh with grief uh for me is that and the thing that changed actually and was the shift i think that i needed was a realization that you never get over it and so the problem is and the reason i think people get stuck with grief is because they're trying to do the wrong thing you will never get over grief and i'm not saying that in a negative way you put it this way if you've lost your loved one say you've lost your partner or something right someone's passed away it's been a tragic loss and it's you know this is someone that you really care about do you ever think you're going to be cool with the fact that they died and is that really the goal like if you've lost your mother do you want to be like oh do you know what i'm over the fact my mum died really you don't what you want to do is achieve the fact where you can hold space for the loss of that person remember them and feel sad that they're gone but also live your life and that is the goal and suddenly when you shift the goalpost and stop trying to do something that's impossible so when you try and do something that's impossible you get frustrated and you get sick because you're trying to do something that can't be done and trying to be like over the fact that someone's passed away that you loved it's just the most impossible thing to do so stop trying to do that instead hold space in your day especially initial times hold space and lots of space for the experience of grief and sadness but also create room for life and take them with you live your life with that person alongside you a lot of the biggest moments i thought gosh i've achieved this i think you're clear i think my brother i think god he'd be proud of this and sometimes it makes me sad that's okay you know stop trying to fix grief humans love fixing stuff we love we i think as a human being we like tidiness we like certainty we like things to be organized and some things are messy and they're best left messy and grief is one of those things it's not just don't process it but don't try and fix it let it exist

54:36Dr Alex George: absolutely um i carried a lot of well i carry a lot of grief especially for my friend chris who is the reason i do the treks actually she was a founder of copperfield yeah and every trek i I carry obviously the weight of the grief, but there's something about doing it and having her there. She's my why, you know, and I think for me, this year compared to last year in terms of my grief have been hugely different. Last year it felt like a weight, whereas this year it feels like that time where I am closer to her than ever.

55:11Giovanna Fletcher: Well, you're amazing. You are amazing, G, for many reasons, but, you know, it's really special that you've continued to do that. And I know you were very close to her, and she was an amazing person. And it doesn't need me to say how incredible a human being that she was. But, you know, it is so amazing. And also, you know, to show other people that you should continue with the grief is really important because it's okay to go and do something and cry and be sad and to tell people that you feel sad. I think it's kind of, isn't it strange that everyone will experience grief and yet we're so embarrassed to feel grief?

55:43Giovanna Fletcher: Anyway, it's a weird concept. if you're sad and you cry oh my god i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm just having a moment it's like what why are we apologizing for the most normal human experience it'd be kind of weird if you didn't like i don't know i've sometimes there's so many things that we do i've written about this and like a new book's coming out and i've written called am i normal which has been a definitely most painful book i've ever written but i'm kind of looking about life and how like is it me or is it the world how messed up life is in a way grief is one of the chapters i wrote and then i was literally looking at it and say it's absolutely mental how we approach it approach grief yeah and it doesn't have to be that way and and the way again we're trained to be like apologetic about we have to be sorry that we're sad you have to apologize that you're sad and then when you stop and you look at it like this is again this is just crazy yeah absolutely yeah another question for

56:32Dr Alex George: you this is one of your most asked questions is should we avoid social media oh that's a difficult

56:39Giovanna Fletcher: I guess it always comes down to the why doesn't it um yeah let's put it this way so I deleted twitter many years ago because I genuinely believe that it was doing more harm than good to my health and happiness I deleted I had like 300 ,000 followers some of the my team were like you're crazy you need to keep it whatever I was no don't care literally it's gone it's a net negative to my health it's gone nothing's worth it and I never regretted getting rid of it um whereas the other platforms like um Instagram have provided me sometimes at my lowest points light and like when I was diagnosed with OCD recently you know the people on there that reached out and like allowed me to see that I can get better and see hope has been some of the most important things so it depends on the why and how it affects you but if it affects you it I always think like look at a behavior or thing or person whether it's alcohol or a friend or whatever it is and I generally think you should look at things of like is this a net positive or not negative in my life and it sounds brutal sometimes but you need to have an honest chat with yourself and if social media is net negative get rid of it if it's a positive then keep it if it's an in between it's good and bad which is for most people then it's more about setting things like boundaries boundaries about you see unfollowing content you don't like um muting keywords and having screen time you know one of the biggest things that you know people talk about social media good or bad um the biggest thing we know for certain is that longer you're on there the more negative symptoms you experience so there's a sharp rise in negative experience after two three hours so if you're spending six hours a day on there the chance of having anxiety negative thinking um you know disconnection is obviously much higher so just monitor screen time is definitely the big thing

58:15Dr Alex George: my happiest time on uh instagram was uh happened over the summer when all of a sudden i just fell into a gardening algorithm that's all it was feeding me it's all it was feeding me and then all of a sudden you accidentally click on something that might turn up on your feet and then it changes i had a glorious few months where it was all about gardening mine's a lot of mine's just

58:35Giovanna Fletcher: dogs i mean i love roller and i see a lot of dog stuff and i just love like dog content even i always think like when you see something does it make you smile does it make you sad so if you know yourself smiling at content that's probably something you should look more at if you look at something you start frowning and you're feeling sad you're drawing away from it then perhaps mute that stuff life's too short to look at stuff that makes you feel rubbish i completely agree

58:55Dr Alex George: um we asked the happy mom baby community for some questions we have a few um one person has asked how can I ask my husband about his mental health?

59:05Giovanna Fletcher: So I think very much like I said earlier really I think it's the approach of that conversation I think first of all don't be afraid of having that conversation I don't worry about it too much I think that's probably an important hurdle think about time and place I think sometimes we can just like blurt out the question because we're so pressured around it not necessarily the best time like five minutes before they go to work it's probably not the time if you're looking for an opportunity and way to do it my best advice either do it driving um or even better than that walking with someone um like you experienced when we went for a walk it's so much easier to open up because you don't have the eye contact directly you can choose look each other but you're not it's not this facing off thing you're on each other's shoulder you're moving walking nature's very calming anyway um there's something called the lateral gaze that happens when you're walking which um is good for processing emotions so um emdr so eye movement desensitization retraining um or reprogramming i always forget which it is is around the idea of you move eyes left to right and it was actually discovered because the lady who discovered it was sat by a lake I think it was and she'd gone through something really difficult she was looking at the trees and the branches were swinging in the leaves and suddenly she started feeling better and that's where it came from and it's not a woo thing like the science behind it is absolutely categorical that EMDR is hugely good not just for PTSD and for traumatic experience but any distress so going for a walk you do lateral gaze and it helps you process so my advice is get your boots on go outside for a walk and have an honest conversation and say look i like i'm worried about you let's talk like how do you feel what's going on like and and allow space that probably it's not a one conversation job it's probably something will take time and over time they might open up more but the most important thing is have the conversation like

1:00:47Dr Alex George: just how interestingly interestingly the second question uh that we've got is my husband is struggling with anxiety and thinks he may have adhd but refuses to seek help we are stuck and he won't talk about it what can i do it's really hard if so if you're met with resistance in that

1:01:03Giovanna Fletcher: in that instance so number one thing is you can't change anyone you can't tell someone to do i mean a lot of people i so i make a lot of content on my youtube alcohol free living and people talk about their partners and you can you can put things under you know put slide books in front of them you can bring things up and it's great to do that but fundamentally um that person has to decide that they're ready for change so one sometimes the best thing to explore in that situation is the barriers why is that person afraid of doing this are they afraid of facing something being told are they afraid of finding out something that like is quite a big thing to find out later in life are they worried about the judgment is it the shame is it what is it i think if you can dig into the barrier because it almost certainly is one then you'll find out why you know and often if you can unlock that perhaps you can work on the reason why and therefore that opens the doors because i think fundamentally i mean so interestingly and this is quite um i actually was with my psychiatrist this morning for an appointment um the kind of follow-up and things and we talked about this before that there's quite a common pattern that happens when people are diagnosed with adhd or asd or any significant um neurodevelopmental diagnosis and the first thing that happens almost always is relief a light bulb moment of relief because suddenly everything makes sense but then 10 what tends to happen is a period of avoidance so you avoid this is literally why did you ignored it for three months pretend that didn't happen then you have then you have a period of time where you have anger and grief and usually anger then it's grief because you realize all the ways that society screwed you over or that things that could have been different or if you didn't know this i don't like if i don't know and never drunk alcohol if i don't know there's loads of things that wouldn't have happened and been different and i think that's part of it i think i suspect some of the subconscious reason lots of people don't want to get diagnosed is because then they have to face the reality that um a lot of pain happened that shouldn't have happened i think that's really hard to deal with to understand that you know you you ended up in very difficult places like for example someone say with a drug addiction alcohol addiction the result of adhd that's a really hard thing to accept that this thing has made you this way um so i think that's the barrier explore the why and often that will lead you to the to the answer well and the fact

1:03:15Dr Alex George: that we were talking about there's so much so many conversations now around the fact that everyone's being like it's this trend not the fact that there's so many people that should have been diagnosed a lot sooner so people i wonder if that's a reluctance or a feeling of maybe being judged or ridiculed in the same way that you know the statistic is being because they're not looking at the fact that actually people have just been missed and not helped for so long about three

1:03:41Giovanna Fletcher: percent of the adult population will have adhd so if you do three percent a year and to do it for quite a number of years that we've not been diagnosing people then you're gonna have a lot of people to catch up eventually we will catch up and it will fall the diagnostic rate will fall back to three percent which is the true yeah but if you've got 30 years of under diagnosis that's a lot of people that suddenly hear about it that are getting diagnosed yeah why the waiting list which is why the adhd clinics are having challenges so and yeah it's a real i know if anyone says to you it's just a trend or whatever point them to the study around a nightly short of life expectancy and tell me it's a trend you know that is a that is a meta-analysis published in a major paper um and i think it's about as shocking as you need to to kind of show people

1:04:24Dr Alex George: why it matters you know absolutely um the next question is is from a mum along the same lines actually um it feels like a lot of people are just wanting other people to talk uh so she says my son is acting a little differently and isolating himself how can i spark a conversation with him

1:04:42Giovanna Fletcher: yeah and and i think this is the most difficult dynamic i think what i when i talk to so many people about um and about having conversations with other people that worry about i think it is the parent-child dynamic that is difficult and i think it's it's there's a few things um one of them is they approach like the psychiatrist said it's being the friend and trying to level to that place and i think importantly it's also and this is actually feedback i've had more from young young people who have mental illness or have been struggling and how they would advise parents to have conversations and a lot of it is making sure they don't feel again the autonomy point a lot of them worry that by opening up and sharing it's going to lead to a loss of control that action is going to take place without them being controlled so a lot of the time we're saying look no matter what you say to me you're in charge here what we do is down to you i just want to support you and if i can i'd love to do that um so like again yeah what what's you know how are you you kind of feeling are you you know is there something that's kind of bothering you are you just feeling frustrated at the moment like what's going on and try and find an entry point into it and i think it's just keeping as long as you keep reminding them look nothing you tell me is going to lead to a problem or you know do anything everything's to be down to what you do i'm just going to help you do what you want to do to fix this but what i do notice is you're not yourself and i'm as a parent of course i'm worried about you um i think that's the approach that i would take softly softly i mean some of the other things that people have said is sometimes what they need is that and the honest truth is and young minds study um young minds are amazing have studies have shown this as well is that sometimes you're not the right person to talk to and i think that's very hard but the fact of the matter is you are a parent and sometimes you are not the right person to have a conversation with about so it's opening doors to other people so it's saying well if if i'm not the right person to talk to who do you think might help should we with a therapist would you like to speak to someone like that do you want to speak to someone you know who is it that's going to help support you and actually a good place to send them if they don't want to talk to you is on the young minds website they can click you've got parents and children click on the children section and they give a load of support services and sometimes that's the difference they need also for parents do look on young minds website in literally have a whole section for parents on how to have these conversations and this is evidence-based advice and it's evidence from surveys and work with young people so check it out there's so much advice on there i had a light bulb

1:07:03Dr Alex George: moment this summer where i um i had a load of uh friends over that i'd gone to uni with and it just I had a lovely moment of how important those adults are in my kids' lives. And actually, it's so important that we put focus on the community around our family so that we don't carry the weight just on our own. And that we realize that those influences can be so positive and beneficial and it doesn't sit on us to do everything and be everything.

1:07:33Giovanna Fletcher: I think that's such a wise insight. I mean, we didn't used to live this way. We didn't used to live in houses. houses we'd live in communities and children would grow up together and you know parents would share the responsibility of looking after each other's children and families closer so that's the change that's happened so i think yeah it's acknowledging that you don't have to be everything your job you're it's hard enough being a mom as it is you don't have to do everything there's enough you've got enough responsibility not everything is your job and that's that's the truth not everything is

1:08:02Dr Alex George: your job we end the podcast with you completing two sentences the first one is if i could tell you one thing it would be?

1:08:10Giovanna Fletcher: That no matter how difficult life is now or times are, there is always hope for a better day. And I think that's something that's got me through many a difficult point.

1:08:22Dr Alex George: And that leads you nicely onto I'm happy when.

1:08:26Giovanna Fletcher: I'm happy when I'm with Rolo, my dog, out in the park, kicking some leaves with the sun on my face.

1:08:34Dr Alex George: I love that. We've got a dog over the

1:08:36Giovanna Fletcher: summer dennis has joined our family i love that dennis menace there is that beautiful feeling of

1:08:44Dr Alex George: being out together it they i never realized a dog could make you uh see nature in a completely

1:08:51Giovanna Fletcher: different way it's absolutely also teach you something like dogs teach you patience they teach you understanding um there's something incredible about uh dogs and then also i say is one thing as well a dog will read you like a book when you're sad the dog will know and immediately almost before you know that something's up they're incredible i i we are so lucky we don't deserve dogs it's one of the very true statements we don't deserve them we really don't alex thank

1:09:20Dr Alex George: you so much i i have thoroughly enjoyed this it's such an important topic and you're the perfect person to speak to about it so thank you so much likewise enjoy your company you're brilliant this

1:09:29Giovanna Fletcher: podcasters you know i've i've done i did the waiting room a couple of years a years ago and then i've seen stomp cast for a couple years but you know you really are the og you know you're one of them on the og podcasters and like i often think you know like how many people will you have helped over the years i mean it'd be incalculable actually to like work out how many you know moms but also dads um yeah uh parents uh that you will have supported uh phenomenal really so you should be proud of that it's amazing it's absolutely it shows the power of like podcasting that if you have the right podcast, the right person which you are and the right story, the right mission, you can change so many people's experiences in life.

1:10:06Giovanna Fletcher: So yeah, you're doing a great job. We don't even need to tell you that, but you're doing a great job.

1:10:10Dr Alex George: Thank you. No, that means a lot. Thank you so much. Thank you.