I Won’t Let This Define Elsie: Jen Stancombe on Grief, Love & Her Daughter's Legacy

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0:38Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum. Today's guest is the incredible Jen Stankham, who got in touch with us a little while ago. On the 29th of July, 2024, her daughter Elsie Dot Stancom was in a dance class in Southport and Elsie Dot was murdered that day along with Bibi and Alice. Jen reached out to us and wanted to come on and celebrate her daughter to talk about how they have dealt with the grief and talk about Elsie's story. an amazing foundation they've put together to to help other children find happiness here's Jen Stancom I think I need this you know do you yeah I think I do I enjoy sharing about Elsie I enjoy and I think you know what I've been through something that is completely unique and it doesn't happen, I'm gladly so it doesn't.

1:48But if there's one person out there, whether that's sharing anything, that can help even if it's just one. Because we just get peppered bits, right? We get little bits of info of what Elsie was like. But actually, for you to kind of sit, and we both want this to be a celebration of Elsie. Yeah. But first we're going to start with you. What was your childhood like? I had a lovely childhood. I have so many memories. I'm really close to my mum. I have an older brother who I'm incredibly close to. So he has been my absolute rock through the last couple of years. Mum and Dad got divorced when I was 14.

2:47Sounds really bad, doesn't it? But I was like, oh, I'm getting two houses. What was it like growing up in Southport? Amazing. Obviously, it's a seaside location. So I think, although if you ask anyone in Southport or Formby, it's kind of like on that. On that little stretch. Yeah, we probably don't go the beach on nice days because people travel in. So you normally go the beach on bad days because it's quieter. But yeah, we probably take for granted sometimes how beautiful the sand dunes are. Beautiful pine wards, lots of places to go walking, lots of places for the kids to go and adventure. Great schools.

3:25Do you remember that from your childhood doing all of that stuff? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had a little Yorkshire Terrier. We used to go up the sand dunes. Yeah, I had a lovely childhood. Did you always know that you wanted to be a mum? Yeah. Was that even from like a young age? Yeah. So I referred to my Yorkshire Terrier before. She was like my baby. So she would go in my pram. And I remember I had a friend that lived over the road from me and we both had our prams and she would come onto my side of the road and we'd have our prams and my doll was my Yorkie. She was a tiny York Terrier and she used to sit in the pram.

4:04You know, even when I started getting to my late teens, I was like, I cannot wait until it's my turn to be a mum. Really? Yeah, yeah. And at what point did you meet Dave? So me and Dave have known each other. So you'll hear me refer to him as Day or David, so I do apologise that it's Day. Oh, Day and David? Day and David, yeah. So it's not Dave? No, not Dave. Did you drop the V and the D? Yeah, well, some people refer to him as Dave, and me and Dave were always like, me and Dave, I've even just done that, were a bit like, okay, we'll go along with this. But you were very polite and you just repeated what I said to you, and you could have done this whole chat which is referring him to as Dave, and that's not his name.

4:41I don't think we'd have been able to link it, but yeah. So me and Dave known each other since we were about 11, 12. So I went to the all-girls school, he went to the all-boys school, they're like a mile apart. yeah and then yeah when I was in I was living at university and then obviously like we're still friends and stuff and then yeah eventually I think I was I was 20 and he was 21 okay when we we became you know dating and became a couple and then yeah never I don't think we were really good friends before you know there's nothing about each other's past or I think we knew everything and I loved that about each other you couldn't we knew each other already and um we were already really good friends to then become best friends and then fall in love with each other was yeah and he is my he's my absolute rock do you feel like you always knew you were gonna have kids together yeah really oh yeah we both knew as soon as we were married like a case of honeymoon we're on it yes yeah i i knew like i felt like i'd made my whole life for it as well and it's like oh my time's finally come you know so we got married in november and we had elsie the following october yeah so it was so it all happened very quickly yeah yeah yeah do you remember um early days of pregnancy with elsie and and finding out yeah i think i want to say it maybe took us maybe only like a couple of months remember that first month i was like oh like because you know i was like i've not got pregnant this month like oh like you know i thought thought it would just happen straight away and i mean it's one month let's look at it in terms of but you know even then i was only 20 i think it's i think it's a shock yeah because you've spent your whole life going you know must be very very careful because if that comes anywhere near you you're getting pregnant you know that is the line that we were told so to suddenly start and go oh oh that that wasn't what I thought was going to happen even if it's one month it is that it is that disappointment that you're not prepared for yeah so I was like right okay so I think I want to say it was either month two or month three it was very it was you know very quick really in the grand scheme of things did you enjoy your pregnancy yes very much especially my first yeah and there was a another girl at work at the time who was pregnant at the same time um and we were like pregnant together and I thought that was that was really special so yeah I think she went off just a week or so before me so yeah um at one point I was like I want a c-section like I was adamant yeah I just want a c-section I think that's how I want it but you know I ended up speaking to the midwife's room appointments thought you know what and then obviously I think the weeks prior to giving birth I couldn't even worry about that because she came at 35 weeks so yeah so I think the time of which I would have really started to worry I think I all like started to like build myself up I didn't have that time I had her so yeah and I remember I was with someone I remember got this like shopping I was like oh you know like a bit of like indigestion and I was like left it and then we went out for dinner with day's brother and sister and their partners and I remember I had a J2O with my mate on I remember thinking oh it's giving me really bad indigestion and then um I woke up in the night I said I've wet myself like oh my gosh like I've wet myself and obviously isn't it wild it's so early that your mind hasn't even gone to yeah no this could be stuff happening no I thought I've wet myself and then I so I got back into bed I was like can't believe I just wet myself that's really embarrassing like so I got back into bed and I was like oh no I'm wet myself again and this time I'm awake and I'm aware of it.

8:10So I was like, what is that? And I was like, I think I've lost a little bit of fluid here. So I rang the hospital and they were like, come in. At this point, it's like early hours in the morning. So I think I ended up getting to the hospital at like seven o 'clock. And I remember I thought, right, I'm going to go in. They're going to say you've lost a little bit of fluid. You might need to go on bed rest or anything like that. At this point, I hadn't felt any sort of discomfort or anything. But as we were walking up the stairs, my full waters went. And Dave was like, oh my gosh. And I was like, do you know what?

8:35I think people's waters can still go in my head. I was like, right, we'll go and see what they say. And then she said, I do think it's your waters. And then eventually examining, they went, you're four centimetres. And I've just felt her head. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm having her. Did you have your bag with you or anything? So I had half a packed bag, but it was more her stuff. I didn't have anything for myself in it. I hadn't picked the pram up. I hadn't picked the car seat up. Because that was what I was planning to do. I was going to go with my mum, make a day of it. I'd booked in a pedicure.

9:04You know, I was really going to make the most. I hadn't sorted the nursery out properly. You know, I'd worked far away. So that was like my real, like, nesting time that I'd had. Yeah, I think it was. So I went in, like, it must have been 7 or 8 o 'clock that morning. I had her later on in the day. And remember they said to me, have you got a name? And I was like, yeah, it's Elsie. And they wrote Elsie on the board. Talk to me about the name. Where did Elsie.com come from? Because it's a middle name as well. I think it is so beautiful. So Elsie, me and Dave just loved it. Yeah. I remember when I found out it was a girl, I was just like, yes.

9:34We get to use the name. Elsie. Like, yeah, so that was, yeah, I instantly knew it was Elsie. And then Dot, my, I think someone said, oh, it's because she was a little Dot. Yes, she was a little Dot. But actually, my grandma was called Dorothy. And I used to call her Grandma Dot. And Grandma Dot was, like, my everything. Like, the relationship I had with my Grandma Dot was very special. So she was Elsie Dot after Grandma Dot. Yeah, so she was, I think she was five pounds. Then she obviously lost a little bit. She was teeny, yeah. She was really tiny. So she was literally a little dot, so she lived up to her name.

10:11Can you remember meeting her for the first time? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What was that moment like? I'd obviously wanted to be so long, and I was like, oh, my gosh. I remember when they passed to me, I was a bit like, oh, because I wasn't like that. I was a bit like, oh. And you just covered in white. And I was literally like, oh. Babies don't look like what you think they're going to look like when they first come out. So I was a bit like, oh. um so I was a little bit taken back I'm not gonna lie and I'm not gonna say oh my god you know of course I loved her but I was a bit like oh my gosh I do actually have a baby now and there was a bit of I was only eating dinner last night and now I've got a baby you know and I wasn't really expecting that although I was expecting it to come it would come a lot sooner than I thought so I was a bit like oh my gosh she's actually here now so I think that was a bit more about me and that lack of like mental preparation for it um but as I think as the days went on I'd say I like literally I couldn't love anything more than this little like honestly I loved her so so much you know and and she was mine she was mine in days and me and day always used to say she's a little bit of me and a little bit of you it was like that thing we would say like oh my god a little bit of me and a little bit of you and like we were so proud of ourselves that you know and you know I've said it before she made me a mom and you know she made me a mom and she made David a dad and I think that was like I'll be forever grateful to Elsie for that like that dream I'd had for all those years that I'd wanted like I'd come and yeah it was a bit of a shock and it was not as planned as I'd thought it had been but after a few days I kind of come to terms with it yeah it was it's just just a sudden switch of I'm at work and this is what I do and I'm about to go and mat leave and you know I am a mat leave and that that just that pivot to all those plans that you would have had for those weeks leading up to her your due date and suddenly she's there she was just there and you know what knowing her personality like of course of course she was going to come early like and you know now I look back and I'm like god I wouldn't have had it any other way yeah I got four extra weeks with her like what you know five extra weeks sorry um it was like I think she was like four weeks six days early so I had though that five extra weeks with her and I wouldn't have had it any other way yeah what were those early early days like um you know I'm not going to sit here and paint and say it was absolutely perfect she had really bad reflux um and then she became a bit intolerant to her milk so they put on a special milk but that seemed to really settle her then so um so yeah it was tough and you know because she was born early I had to feed her every three hours but because she had really bad reflux by the time I'd fed her put down she was then sick then I had to change her never ending isn't it and then it was near enough it was two hours each each feed was two hours getting a burp it was a nightmare she never used to burp I don't know it's because she was so tiny and maybe I probably wasn't going to you know help that much because I'm still this little tiny person so yeah that was it was quite we had our tough days well when you're getting an hour and a half or an hour an hour and a half sleep every three hours that's proper broken sleep yeah it was but you know you look back now and it is as time goes on you kind of forget those broken sleep and as they get better you do forget about it I found like old notebooks and stuff that sort of says like what literally I used to write down what feed, what boob, like whatever, how long.

13:30And it feels like another, it feels like a frantic woman just kind of trying to write notes to keep on top of stuff. You know what I mean? Just like, wow, that was my life for a while. Yeah. And then nothing else can exist other than you being with that baby and trying to, you know, help them thrive. And, yeah, and, you know, I was just waiting for that next three hours. When they said to me, you have to feed her every three hours, I was like, I have to feed her every three hours. there's no I have to continue to do this yeah and you know I look and I think we were still quite young you know and you're you know late late 20s is still really young and they used to wake up and do the feeds with you yes we had like a pattern so he um because she was because she was so comfortable and she was sick a lot I think it kind of needed a bit of both of us at the start but then eventually we got into a routine that he'd stay up and do like the midnight one and then I'd pick the other ones up when he went back to work and things you do you get like a little routine for you both don't you and your little and you know and you're just like in your nest in your bubble aren't you at home and yeah what was elsie like as a big sister did she take well to the news yes yes she did absolutely and uh and it was covid so my youngest was born year on covid so that was always a challenge in itself and um we we found out it was a little girl that we were able to do that and we we would just i think it was just me elsie david i think our mum's in the garden and we did it with a candy but we'd been told it was pink yeah we did and it was all like a distance and we did and we popped it um and elsie did it and i think i probably still got the video and she did it and she was made up it was a sister absolutely made up yeah she was she was really excited and um i'll never forget when she when she first met her sister that because it was because i had my youngest during covid um i had to get taken down in the lift by one of the midwives.

15:20And when you're second, you're in and out, aren't you? And so I think I had her in the morning. I was out by the afternoon. And our youngest just fitted into our life. Like, it was like she'd always been there. She slept amazing. She fed really amazing. Like, she was fantastic from the minute I brought her back from the hospital. Really settled baby. So, yeah, so it just fitted into our life. So, yeah, and I think Elsie just loved it. You know, she'd sit and watch her sister on the bouncer chair. Yeah, and I loved that. And I think when I found out I was having another little girl, I remember thinking, like, God, that's a best friend for life, for a sister.

16:03They were really happy years of my life. Very, very special. Yeah. And seeing your kids in an area that means so much to you. Yeah, so the school that Elsie went to in a younger sister, me and David went to that primary school. Yeah, so I know it, so I know. Any of the same teachers? No. Did you still feel the same though, like it was your school? Yes. I get funny around head teachers. Do you? Yeah, I feel like they are my head teachers. Yeah, no, I do think head teachers have a presence, don't they? And they do a good job, don't they, looking after all those children. so yeah I mean I've got a fantastic relationship with the head now of the school um she was literally there whenever I've needed her did Elsie love school loved it absolutely loved it um I think she loved that me and David had been there as well you know when she'd asked like yeah so I think she loved that and um she was ready to um build new friendships she was just so excited for it and I remember they come around to your house and they do kind of a pre um like meeting before they start school and you meet the teacher and they were like she's not gonna struggle is she you know she was really like emotionally intelligent for her age really articulate was saying what it is she wanted to do when she got there you know she she skipped in every day yeah was she quick to make friends yeah very she was really yeah she had a lot of friends around her really good at building relationships not even just with children with adults and i think the relationship she had with the teaching assistants the teachers i think that that speaks volumes about it is and i go i keep going back to like emotional intelligence with lc that like empathy and understanding for others and understanding other people's emotions it was like she was like you know so many people saying she's been here before like that is so many things like she's been here before and numerous times that david david obviously worked for real rail and he'd get stopped by parents and say, can I just say, I've been with Elsie today and she's absolutely remarkable.

18:10Like she is like, you should be so proud of her. And we're like, we are. Like she was like one of a kind. And I think I use a term that she was unforgettable. And I mean that because I think if you met her, you wouldn't forget her because of the impact that she has in that such a short space, just from the questions she would ask like how are you have you had a nice day today but it's the way she'd do it and that oh but she brought a bit of sass to her but it was nice and it was um you know she got voted school council by her friends for the first time and you know that was her class choosing her to be to represent them and i'll never forget the day she come out and i've been chosen mom and i i was so proud and i wasn't always on school pickups of work and things i remember i was there on that day and i was so excited for her that you know her class had chose her and you know she got to represent the school in that way and yeah it's seeing in seeing them in a very different uh capacity as well isn't it that suddenly you've got a responsibility actually if you're school council you know what I mean and to know that she's taken that on and she's she's loving that that role yeah and she loved her job you know and she was one of those who's like oh you know I got to stay in at lunch time today because I got to count something or I was doing that job or I had to sharpen the pencils and she loved the job you I had to stay in today.

19:28I had to stay in at lunch, yeah. And if you ask her, you're a two teacher, she would say she would always try and think of something. Look, you do not need me to go out into the play area today because I could do that for you. And she's like, else you'll have to go out. Yeah, but I'm just thinking, she was just the same at school as she was at home. Well, I was wondering, like, as a big sister, did she take that role as I am going to look after you? Like, what was their relationship like? Was she actually part of the team with you and Day? or was she, you know, was she the sister? You know what I mean?

19:58Like, was she a parent or was she, in a way that a lot of big sisters tend to go down. Yeah, I'd say probably more parent. Like, no, no, no, no, don't do that, don't do that. And, you know, she'd say to her, don't, don't, don't. And, yeah, or, but then I've heard her say, go on then, go on, do that. And, like, mum will be all right. And I was like, hey, hey, hey, you know, I've heard her. And then she was like, no, no, no, I'm just saying, you know, it was like drawing or something. or something in the bath. And I was like, I'm right here. Then she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, so I think she definitely took on that protective role, particularly if we were in public or another house.

20:38She was, like, super proud of that role. I'd say more at home. She became that more, like, that cheeky sister that she would, like, play with. But definitely out the house, she was like, this is my sister, and, like, you know, I protect her, sort of. I love that. I love seeing that protectiveness between them because even if they fight or anything at home, when they're outside... It's the outside. Yeah. What did she love doing?

21:07I'll never forget the term my brother said. God, every day is like a holiday for that child. She would make anything into something. So it could be the smallest thing and we would be like, right, we need to go to the supermarket after school today, we need to do a shop. Fantastic. like right okay she's like i really get the impression that it's a chance for her to meet people yeah just like brilliant yeah no problem yeah like absolutely just up for anything you know she'd never be like oh you know never she was like yeah um great like and then she'd be with you and she'd be chatting around and she'd go she'd she'd be like hi to people you know she'd just be she'd just embrace she'd come at the supermarket i mean would she ask for something probably yeah um yeah so she did cheerleading she did swimming um she did gymnastics yeah i tried to i was i was up for anything with her and i was always at the front like come on like i got a video of her getting a gymnastics certificate and i was lit you can literally hear me above anyone else i was so proud of her she was there like this you know like you know and i I, she was, yeah, she'd give everything 100%.

22:17Yeah. 100%. And her first ever cheerleading comp, like competition was like not that long ago. It was like in April, 2024. And, oh, she loved it. Absolutely loved it. You know, speak about what she wants to be when she grow up. She's like, I want to be a fashion designer in the day, but I want to be a cheer coach at night. They were like her two things. So she absolutely, like, she looked up to them girls and known coaches like creative as well very yeah yeah so the start of 24 you know you've got your two children that you and david had played your life is literally looking exactly how you two would have hoped it to look i say i'd won the lottery i used to say honestly i'd won the lottery of life i had two beautiful healthy little girls i had a good job i enjoyed my job I had the best husband um we'd moved to our well I had classes like our forever home that we'd done up you know I yeah I'd won the lottery of life I wouldn't I wanted for nothing for nothing got to go on holiday every year you know it was you know people say you could always want what I didn't want anything else yeah like I'd literally found my I was working I used to work five days I worked four days because I was like no I want to make sure I've got that extra I just got it.

23:42We just got it right. Do you feel like you were really aware of it as well? That we had it right? Yeah. Yeah. I was grateful that we'd got that right. The balance, work-life balance, our house, the girls, you know, everything. I was, yeah, I was really aware of it. I knew how grateful I felt. I felt like I was like the luckiest person in the world to have this. It's like, yeah.

24:12obviously July 24. Yeah. Everything shifts. Yeah.

24:21I can remember being at home and hearing about the Southport attacks and I think a lot of people around the country were just literally just trying to see what they could, what information was coming out and what on earth was going on. Yeah. I cannot imagine what that was like being at Southport. Yeah. Being a mother and having that uncertainty surrounding that day. Yeah. It was the day that, well, I suppose it goes out of my life changed forever.

25:02I'd planned that summer holidays out to a T. Really? Oh, yeah. Because it's such a big juggle as well, trying to figure out what you're going to do for that six weeks. I had a spreadsheet that I'd made for me and David in the kitchen. And so it said what she was doing on what day. And I remember I decided to take off every Monday of the summer holidays to make sure I could play around my days. So I decided, no, in the summer holidays, I'll stick to every Monday.

25:31And I was debating whether to take my youngest out of nursery. But I thought, you know what? She starts preschool in September and I'll never get that time back with Elsie, just me and her. So we can have those Mondays together while her sister's still at private nursery. And I was like, no, I'll keep her and I'll keep them Monday. So it was all planned out. And that Monday was the only day of the whole summer holidays that me and David had actually got together. So we were the same day off. And I remember I said, like, there's this thing and a friend's going and she was like, yeah. And I said, Els, do you want to go to this thing?

26:07Oh, yeah, of course, it was Taylor Swift, you know. it was uh yes yes yes yes I want to go I want to go I was like right okay and um so yeah so obviously I booked her on and we took her youngest um sister to to nursery yeah and then um me and Dave drove her to to there um Dave never been there before I had obviously I'd done baby classes there so and um yeah so I he couldn't find it so he pulled up and like just pull up here I'll take her down and um yeah I took her down yeah I watched her run off and I left

26:49and then you and Day have a day together that must be rare in itself yeah it was just a couple of hours yeah we went back to ours and and yeah all the doors were open because it was really hot like at the back of the house we have like big doors opening onto the garden so we had them out and yeah, I just got a phone call, said something bad was happening and that I needed to get there. And I remember I screamed, they knew from the scream. It takes about 10 minutes from our house probably, it's like the other side of Southport. but when we got there, it was, yeah, it was chaos. And I'll never forget someone in a suit at this point.

27:42It was absolutely, like, at this point, I think a lot of people, obviously, everyone else had left. Yeah.

27:52And someone in a suit just walked past me. I was, like, sat on a chair and I had, like, people around me and I think I'd been given some oxygen at some point and someone walked past me and he spoke to Day and then Day just knelt down in front of me. Day told you. I wouldn't have wanted that any other way. I remember I was in the back of an ambulance and, yeah, and it was a bit of a don't think they knew what to do with us. Yeah. and that's a massive point that you always talk about the emergency services that day they were faced with something they were broken yeah yeah you could see it these people around me were absolutely broken and weirdly out of anything of the day I remember their faces you know and it was you're not built as human beings to witness that regardless of the job that you do So, yeah, and then in the, again, I couldn't really recall that day, the rest of that day after.

29:08You know, if you'd asked me where Elsie's younger sister was, I can't even remember, but someone did pick her up. I think it was my sister-in-law, my brother's wife had picked her up. And then eventually we got taken to Children's Hospital because they had a bereavement suite there.

29:29and they were lovely, the people were lovely, I couldn't fault them, but to put into context, I was getting addressed a matter of hours earlier and now I'm sat in a bereavement suite. Elsie hadn't been taken there, she'd been taken somewhere else and I was like, I need, you know, that's an adult hospital, she shouldn't be an adult hospital. I remember I was like really like... And then our family, we were introduced to family liaison officers. I mean, you're here, don't you? I'd never had any dealings with the police ever. in my life and you hear you know specially trained officers and now I know I when you say specially trained officers I thought that was their job that they are specially trained to go and do this but no they're normal police officers and they do need and then they're just specially trained to then respond to so then we obviously met our family liaison officers and I had two police officers that stayed with us the whole time I didn't go didn't go home that night I went to my brothers and I think I stood in the shower I remember day holding me in the shower for I think I just wanted like I remember I just wanted a shower and shower and uh I'd been given quite a lot of medication at this point so I was I was dozing off and I don't know concept of night and things and had some people come around I can't I'm trying to tell you but it's like a bit of a blur yeah um and I never wanted to go home I was like I can't go home I can't go home did going home do you feel like that would have made it feel more real yeah i at this point i still didn't even feel like it was and i would imagine that a lot of people around you just didn't know what to do no that there's nothing they can do to help you in many ways that what you actually need isn't what they can give you no but knowing that they had to be there yeah i didn't know what i didn't know what i don't think any of us knew and they didn't know what they needed their lives had broken a lot you know and um again I've got a very poor concept of time but I remember I was asked for a picture of Elsie and I remember I'd got her end of year school book um at the end of when she broke up in in the July or the week week or so like before and I remember I got the school picture and I remember I was like oh why did I not buy that that's like a really beautiful picture I must have like completely missed it whoops what I really look it was like in a book because it was like they were leaving junior infants and I was like why didn't that why didn't I get that picture it was so lovely and when someone said to me ask for a picture I was like I'll like school picture because I've only seen it like a few days before and um school just sorted that and I still had alerts on my phone at this point you know when you like something comes through on the news and it comes through and uh I couldn't I couldn't tell you exactly what it said but I remember I clicked up after that point I never had alerts on my phone but and there Elsie's picture was released that was the moment I realised she'd gone I knew at that point yeah she wasn't coming back and they hadn't got it wrong and I wasn't good yeah I wasn't good um yeah and then it just yeah snowballed into that like it just was like it was there was no time to breathe there was no time to come to terms with what happened because it just went into yeah um like I say I turned off all news I stayed off that was it then and to this day I very rarely watch news um I had no notification on my phone someone stopped everything I was getting hundreds of Instagram and Facebook messages and I was like we got CCTV fitted at the house we got gates fitted at the house it was like and our friends made this happen so they knew that I was like everyone knows where we live everyone knows and it's like you know people stopping outside you know um media were following friends home asking them things they were knocking on doors were they outside your house they didn't knock but they did have like a do not approach yeah uh was on it and they respected that but things were posted so they came to the house and things were posted but they didn't knock.

33:54Yeah. It's a blur the next few months. I suppose the thing that sticks out is that obviously I had to tell my youngest daughter. And like I say, we stayed at my brothers on the Monday, on the Tuesday. I couldn't even tell you. I mean, she was at home. but I know we had people stay with us for quite a long time and on the Wednesday she'd come and lay on our bed. I mean, I don't think I was even going to bed so I must have been up and down and she came and lay on her bed and that is the first time, because that's the first time she said to us, where's Elsie? She knew. I feel like even when we try not to say things around children, they pick up on an energy, they know something's happening and you don't know what they might hear so there there has to be a point where you think we have to tell them this yeah you have to tell her had you and they had a chance to talk about how you would even approach that conversation the hospital had spoke to us and said um and this is where sometimes i think there is obviously a normal way of which they they that sounds awful when you talk about normality with losing a child because there isn't but obviously there is like a way of which when they ask for the cats and they give you a bag for your youngest daughter or your sibling and they say you know always be honest with them I'm like be honest like um and they said yeah just make sure that you don't say that they've gone to sleep or they're asleep and I understood I understood that behind it and uh but obviously me and day were broken yeah i had to about to how do we do this like and then she just said where's elsie she knew she just knew there was something not right and um i remember i said elsie's gone to heaven with nana tina and i said her and she said why and I said a bad man hurt her but it wasn't her fault she did nothing wrong don't ever think she did anything wrong because she did nothing wrong and she was like okay and that day her heart broke and you know in the following weeks the whale she would let out really oh it was piercing she'd like fall on the floor and she'd wail and then she kept saying when's she coming back when's she coming back i kept saying she can't come back i'm so sorry she can't come back and then i think when i look back over time like I was honest with her, but then I wasn't maybe clear enough with her.

37:00She ended up creating this conception that me and David had dropped her somewhere. She'd been hurt and we'd left her. And then over time we've had to help her. But that's because I've tried so hard to protect her, not saying it too much. I don't want her to not feel safe when she goes to school. When I say she was in a class. I've been so careful all the time. But you have the added thing of Elsie being on the news. Yeah. We didn't have the telly on, yeah. But people know. So you have the added thing of not knowing what other people might say around her or what she might see without you knowing.

37:40Yeah. So there has to be a level of honesty that maybe doesn't have to be there if it's not... Needed. Yeah. Yeah. Such a traumatic event that is then nationally broadcast. Yeah. And we're living that in the side while trying so hard with this other little person. And she was asking a lot about, are we safe? Can I get out? And I kept having to reassure her. and that's, you know... How did you reassure her when, I would imagine, you no longer felt safe? Yeah, no.

38:23I said there was 200 police officers around him. And she said, well, when they go to sleep, I said another 200, come. I can't sit here and say I know what to do and how to parent while you're grieving and how to parent a child as well that's experiencing loss, there's just no right and wrong answer. I'm just trying. I still just can't believe it sometimes. I worry so much for her as she grows up as well. I've tried to protect her so much. and, you know, we've not long come back off the holiday and we actually went, just the three of us.

39:18And, you know, when someone says, have you just got one? I go, what do we do? We actually use the thing, do we traumatise them or do we just say, yeah, we've just got one? Then how can we do that? Because we haven't just got one, we've got two. and uh i know like people talk about time like you know time no no time is the most frightening thing

39:51because it's just further away from when i was with her it's not healing me and i felt so much guilt. I took her. I chose to do it. You don't need me to say that that guilt is misplaced. Yeah. So many people have told me. But it's that thing, right? We carry this, the feelings carry with us. And no matter how other people try and rationalise stuff, we can't make them go away no and um no and there was a moment there was a moment in recent weeks where I when some information came out I did have a moment where I was like I don't feel as much guilt as I did because I was just like so many other people that day that took the child to a holiday club and just expect them to have a nice time and I just didn't get to pick her up.

40:53And, like, there were so many people, surely, across the whole country that did the same that day. And you'd never ever think that would happen. That doesn't mean that I don't slip into that guilt, but there was a moment when I realised that, and it wasn't that long ago. and yeah.

41:18Yeah. How do you move forward with your younger daughter and not wrap her up in constant cotton wool? How do you stop the risk assessing at every turn? Do you feel like you've been able to do that and to give her freedom? yes and no i'd say yes in a way that she might feel like that but no from myself um i find it hard and if it's not me or if i need to be somewhere then someone needs to be so we're really close proximity to the school which means i can hear every siren i can hear it going into the distance i can hear it quieting down i've been in the car and driven around when i feel like i couldn't hear it go in the distance um i appreciate that's not healthy and i know that and i've tried to get help for that i just i i just think i'm unfixable you're still only two years i know time is not you know but it is i know and my youngest still does do do dance and she does cheerleading um but i think it's a stay in the car park or a stay stay in the hall there yeah i've been on every school trip with her and she's very much like why is my dad always coming why why um and school have worked really hard with me as well i've been really patient with about how i ensure that i know that she's safe and what that looks like so um so there's a there's a bit like say when she gets she thinks she's getting dropped off at Dan's but like my youngest did her first cheer competition last week I know it was like and um and we got given like coaches pass so we could literally didn't have to leave her side and they were like right we're gonna go and practice in this other room and and she said to the coach was like um I think you need to tell my mum and dad because I think I think they'd want to come with me and deep down I thought you want me to come with you yeah I could just tell how she did it like and I think god have I had have I had a hard to play in that have I created that I don't I don't know

43:40you dropped your child off at a dance school and like a summer camp and your daughter didn't leave like I feel like however you move forward no one can question or judge what you do to make your family you're ultimately trying to find a way for your for your youngest to live a normal life and if it means that you have to be there as much as possible. She's still doing those things. Yeah, I'd never stop her, yeah. And me and David both committed to that, that we have to try and give her as normal life as possible. And I've said it, I will not let that person ruin another one of my daughter's lives.

44:28He's took one away from me. I will not. I will not. giving the satisfaction of ruining another like I will work every day to be the best mum I can to be to her I do know some days that looks different I try but I'm really open with her I'll say to her do I've had a really hard day today I've been really sad and she'd be like oh it's okay you know and I think oh in case I have been a little bit snappier or something I try and like really talk with her and sometimes she opens up to me a lot of times she'll say to me oh I get I get bad stomach ache I don't talk about that and I know that's anxiety with her um but that's a gift right for you to be able to label how you're feeling and to just say rather than us all feeling like well I can't say that I feel yeah I feel this way I can't that that's that is communicating emotions to our kids it makes them go well I can say that yeah and I say to her you can tell me anything you know that like you can tell me anything any time of day you know that don't you?

45:31She's like yeah yeah yeah I know that I want her to ask me those difficult questions so she feels like she can I'd hate for her to ever feel like she's hiding it it's like when Taylor Swift comes on she turns it off

45:47she doesn't like to make bracelets anymore I've never said anything to her and I'm like how do you know these things or she'll say you alright with that mum you know she's five it's like a constant what is the right thing to do and I just don't know the answer to that and sometimes I just don't know what that is and me and Dave are very much like we take everyday people like you know what does that look like in a couple of years like well I'm just going for tomorrow like we literally if we look too far in the forward I think it gets really frightening there's never me there's no going there's no going back I'd I think like it's you know my life was absolutely ruined that day like ruined like nothing will ever ever make it better ever nothing and uh but we're still a mum we're still a dad and that's to Elsie as much as it is to her sister like Like, you know, I've got a duty to Elsie as well now.

46:50But, yeah, her sister has saved us. There's absolutely no...

46:59Yeah, there's apps. There's apps. She has. She definitely... She saved us both, me and Davies. And we write. There's, like, a purple notebook on Elsie's dressing table. well it's got some things from Elsie in there Dave is better than me but he goes in and he writes stuff and he writes bits to Elsie and he writes bits to her sister as well in hope that she will read it one day for her to realise like how much she has saved us and how much strength she gives us

47:38a lot of couples when they go through something so traumatic and the loss of a child they don't stay together you and David talk to me about you two

47:55I couldn't have done it with anyone else I remember the police come and speak to them it was the chief investigating officer I can't remember the name the title now and he said I'll never forget one of the first things you said to me was and I was like yeah and he was like you turned around and said this would break most people this won't break us and I couldn't even recall saying that and he just said like the strength you two have in this and the respect you have for each other when we've been sat in meetings and everything he was like I'm not worried about you in a sense and uh yeah we've uh we've coped with it very similarly have you yeah we both promised that we get up every day we get changed and we have a shower that's like the minimum and when we have like a really bad day we'll list to each other what we've done in that day and it might be that we've we've got up we've got changed we've made sure our youngest daughter's dressed she looks lovely to go to school like that done and you might even be that but if we just list and it's just to try and make ourselves think well if that's our worst day we've done all right we've done all right together like and i think we can tell when each other's having a really bad day and it's about how we kind of step up for each other in that in that really bad time and it's just respect they used to be able to sit down he could watch the telly that's gone to the extreme he cannot sit down he is really agitated always wants to be doing something up down um one minute he could go say i'm gonna go and do this but then i'll go and do this and it's quite and and i fully respect that that's how he's dealing with things i'm sometimes the opposite i can lack some real motivation sometimes so i think it's about how we help each other um you know i I find it really hard getting out of bed in the morning.

49:57I'm awake. Oh, my body feels so heavy. Like, I physically have to pick it up. It's that heavy. And I'm like, oh, my God, how am I going to deal with today? Yeah, I think he's a very, very special person. Yeah. And I'm so proud of him. And he should be so proud of himself. He's the most incredible dad. Amazing. Like, do you know what? We only had this conversation the other day. with each other if we could go back would we choose not to meet each other which means we didn't have our children which means this would never have happened or and we would have met someone else yeah and we both said absolutely not um i mean if you talk about turn back hands time you could have different things but god dave brought me elsie like it might have only been seven years what a gift like we were always meant to have her like just a little bit of me a little bit of him like I wouldn't change that for the world like I'd have seven years of LC over and going through this and never having her absolutely you decided to try and um have another child Yeah.

51:18That in itself must have been such a big thought process to even get to that point. You know, when you're grieving and you're in this whole other world of grief. David had a vasectomy. Yeah. I called him Dave. I'll take that. No, I'm used to it. He's called Dave. Dave's had a vasectomy. David hasn't. No, Dave hasn't. Dave's had a vasectomy. Yes. But he did have. Yeah, in the April. Yeah. Before the July. Yeah. And that wasn't a rash decision. You know, my youngest was nearly three and a half. It also just highlights how set you were. Yeah. I mean, like, you had both gone to each other. This is our family.

52:11This is it. I remember it was perfect. and uh we've been blessed with two healthy happy children like and that was that was and we felt complete um so we did he had a vasectomy and near enough not long after what happened we were both like what have we done like yeah and it isn't that we wanted to replace because absolutely not and I you know people like would you feel guilt no no because i know i'm not trying to replace her that's not that it was more that i was always meant to have for a dinner table yeah we decided um to have it reversed um and we didn't even get to the point where we were testing to see if it was all still working i i got pregnant relatively quickly after um if i believe right that that first time was a chemical so again tested positive um i remember that thinking like oh i was on a clear blur i think i remember i was like oh like wow it's worked like we thought it might have took quite a see we you know it could take up to a year if it even has worked um and i was like oh my gosh like it's worked really quick and that ended up going and i was like right wasn't meant to be you know um and then i lose concept of time so i'd had at least two chemicals two chemicals is a lot to go through you know i mean you're i know in the grand scheme you're brushing over those like to have that kind of that that hope that your body's going through that again and then for them to go even those are quite a lot to to go through yes you're going to due date calculator and you're like oh right okay so this could happen this time next year and and for that snippet it's like god he's like this is what you bring for my youngest like this is what he brings the house it's like we needed that little bit of chaos and i will say in between is we we got my youngest a puppy and our word wonders by the way that has filled like that's been like a godsend to her i think when you've been through the worst i'm kind of like i couldn't possibly be hurt anymore so I was kind of like right okay that wasn't meant to be and and you know maybe I'd been through a lot you know there was the trial yeah there was it and I was like right okay I need to start looking after myself and um I was you I'm taking lots of vitamins I try really hard to eat better and then I got pregnant must have been about the July time so I've had these two chemicals and then I got pregnant in July and this time it felt different the test progression were progressing and I was like yeah okay this feels different I felt pregnant you know I started really feeling pregnant and then I went for the scan and they were like oh you're measuring a week behind so like that's okay they were like it could be late implantation it can be and I was like oh okay I wasn't expecting that but right and they were like we're gonna give you some protestorine as well there was a heartbeat so I was like okay that's a positive heartbeat quite often measure a week behind you go home i've researched and i was a bit like hmm this is like some have come out all right some have not day they're positive he'll be fine he was sitting with me he's like it'll be okay i was trying to protect my heart let's start to protect my heart a little bit at this point and then i remember it was a monday and we went back and day was very much like we'd be positive like this is fine i still felt really pregnant really pregnant i'd or boobs, nausea, everything.

55:54So I was like, yeah, okay. And then they scanned me and, yeah, no, it stopped growing not long after the last time I'd just been in. Right. So it was, they didn't tell me exactly, but they were like, from the last time we scanned you, there was only a couple of days and it seems like it had stopped. And I remember I looked at the day and I just, I'm so sorry.

56:22that's why i felt bad i just felt bad on him i felt like i'd let him down i thought getting pregnant was gonna be really hard but yeah it's me and um when you're trying to find those little bits of hope yeah so i went into matter of fact mood again i was like right and i remember the woman saying to me you can be sad about this you know and I said to her it's like no not after what I've been through and through I had to pull myself together it's like oh they know our circumstance and I think they were trying to make this as easy as possible he said you come tomorrow and I said well can't come in tomorrow I have a meeting and they were like right you want to come in first thing Wednesday morning I said yeah okay we'll come in at half six in the morning and we'll have a D &C and I was like yeah that's the best way and they said considering how pregnant you still feel now and you've had no signs since the last time I was scanning you we think this is the best option for you as well so I had no signs that I was obviously miscarried so um we went home um and I sorted out and then the next day we had the royal visit so it wasn't a meeting I had the prince and princess of Wales coming to Elsie's school to see.

57:41And so people say, you might be mad for going. And again, I was just like, well, I've said that I'd do that. I wanted to tell them about the teachers. You know, it meant a lot to me. It meant I had to go and show up for Elsie that day. And like, you don't have to worry about me. I'm showing up for her. But then I got pregnant again in December. and then I was lying in bed on a Friday night so this was like early Jan I was lying in bed and I think I was about I was at eight and a half weeks eight weeks because we were going to go for a scan at nine weeks I was because I was like right we'll leave it longer this time because I'll feel better for it and um and I was lying in bed on a Friday night I was like something just doesn't feel right and I couldn't put my finger on it something just didn't feel right and I'd had like a sharp pain here and then that night weirdly I had a sharp pain in the top of my shoulder so I was like and I I don't go anywhere on my own like I'm really like the next morning so on the Saturday morning I said day look I've looked into it there's no early pregnancy units open on a Saturday but Liverpool Women's isn't that far from us which is a spectacular hospital and I actually drove myself there which i have not i've not even i've not barely drive myself to the supermarket so the fact that i've done that i was like didn't want to bother anyone yeah yeah i could have asked a friend or anything but i was like no no i just need in my head i'm just someone just doesn't feel right so for me to even do that i mean i don't even go to the doctor like and i got there and they checked and they were like um well everything everything seems okay they were like but we're just going to get the consultants do a scam and then she said where's your pain and within like the first minute of a scan i thought something's something's not right anyway it was right up topic so he said because i was quite well in myself and i hadn't ruptured they sent me home and i had to go every two days and they were like going to see if it was going to pass on itself and because i should have been like eight in a bit weeks they were surprised i hadn't ruptured so it must have stopped growing and things so um so i had this watch and wait so i have my hcg levels taken every other day and it would be i'd gone back twice and they hadn't dropped my hcg and they gave me an option to have methotrexate which is like an injection but obviously in this time i'd gone home i was on all sorts of reddits and forums and things and it seemed really common that when people took that they seemed to to have ruching i at this point i this point i was really poorly now like um it was making me ill like i was actually ill um i couldn't be left on my own because he said to me you know if you do collapse here's a letter keep it by your front door if you do collapse make sure you go to your local a and a because this is quite a far hospital for you anyway by the time i had gone in and they went in i had ruptured so yeah they took my my right tube about yeah and i was like wow yeah and then since then i've had tests um nothing really yeah nothing and you know i it's awful i feel so sorry for people that go through it it's horrendous i try and deal things i try to think of well at least it's not that i remember i sat there and i said what could be worse you could be scanning me and i could be 20 weeks and you could be telling me something so i try and always think what could be worse and that's how i like kind of try and get myself out of trying it's a way of really not focusing on the pain that yeah you know the of the thing that's actually happening i think about what could have happened which could have been worse so no need to worry about this yeah because the worst has already happened to me like the worst thing you could ever imagine not even in a horror story like you just wouldn't even think of it it's already happened so this oh yeah like you you're okay Jen because that's already happened to you and um and that just just you know thinking maybe what could be happening then and you know in eight months time when you take that that's just that little bit of you know what that might just bring a little bit of a little bit of joy for us in our in our family but and a tiny bit of relief from that pain yeah over the last two years obviously you've had so many different things going on with different inquiries and things and you have really tried to manage even what you take on and what you hear within that yeah kind of like that that um self-preservation I guess kind of protecting protecting yourself and your family from certain bits but actually it was it was a release of certain information to the public that made you decide to take things into your own hands and to put to create something positive yeah with Elsie's story yeah I mean I I started Elsie's story in the October um it was really quite soon it was my brother I think um David had started running he'd done that following the loss of his mom as well she was just running running running that physical need to do yeah that constant on the go i i had a really busy job it took up you know a lot of my time even when i was not in work i was often checking emails without choice um you know i was really passionate about that job and that you know so not only did i lose elsie i lost my identity overnight as well that complete like god i don't you know i'm absolutely not in a capable position but like in terms of just that you know I can't even check my phone for something I don't I can't do that I'm avoiding social media I'm like I was literally like not doing anything whereas normally I'd be going on my work emails I'd be checking that and send a message I think my brother in particular thought this would be really good and I felt like it was my way to still carrying on being a mum to her and when I when I went to do it and sign it up I didn't know what it was gonna look like properly really yeah I knew that I wanted to give grants to bring love and joy to other children that's how I say because that was the epitome of LC like I just kept thinking of watching other children smile or laugh and I kept envisioning that um and I knew to do to do that there wasn't you know it wasn't necessarily a service it was about was providing grants to to bring that level of joy and positivity and I just didn't want Elsie to be known for what happened to her and that was the start of that journey to try so hard to to prevent that um so we started Elsie's story like I say it was just give me a little bit of something to do and focus on and um you know we launched a hoodie at first it was just something we thought me and day had wear to go to something the next thing our friends bought them our family bought the next thing you know we put it online and then we they were just selling these hoodies oh my gosh like there was people everywhere wanting to fundraise was like this is incredible like i can't believe it and like how much good we're getting we're going to be able to do and it does restore faith that you you see the best of people when they want to help and it's not even the people that want to help you it's the people that are already doing something fantastic out there and where wellbeing is something that's become really important and an avenue of which, you know, Elsie's story is absolutely being guided down and the incredible people that are meeting in recent weeks and months that are already or wanting to provide wellbeing programmes to young children.

1:05:36You know, they've dedicated so much to it. There is so many amazing people that want to make a difference to young people and children and um yeah it's it's it's making sure we do that and um i am quite a determined individual and you know as much as many days i feel like i want to give up i absolutely won't and i know not just have a duty to elsie's younger sister i absolutely have a duty to elsie I will fight and I will work so hard for you till the last day and actually I want to show a sister that we you know we talk about Elsie every day we do amazing things and Elsie's saying we should be really proud and then we always say to us young sister this is your charity this is your charity as well and this is her way of being a sister it's my way of being a mom David's way of being a dad her friends can still be you know and we've really seen that and you know we want to bring love joy and positive and like I say that's true grants and then there's there's obviously other avenues with that we we look into and then we present that to the trustees and um you know we've seen it grow at a pace that we we never thought which means that our our ambitions and our visions grow with that and in ways of which we could support which I never imagined we could even be considering well you had so many people reach out to you straight straight away like you said on instagram facebook you had letters turning up to the house people not not knowing your address but somehow Now, you know, people in Southport know where you live.

1:07:04They will get into you. So now, and people feel helpless in that situation, right? They want to reach out. But actually now, with Elsie's story, you've given people an avenue in which they can help. They can help other children. They can make a difference in life. They can show that there is so much human kindness out there. Oh, there is. And, you know, there is many children in our community that realise a lot younger than they should have that bad things happen in the world and unfortunately in their town. And I've thought that if we started Elsie's story, we, like, stood up there. You know, as Elsie's mum and dad show, we will not be beaten.

1:07:50Like, we're going to show these kids, like, I will not let Southport, you know, I talk about Elsie, I won't let Southport. like and these kids I will not let him ruin all the people's lives like these kids are a lot of them are so broke particularly really close um family and friends and you know Elsie was a really advocate for fundraising when when we lost David's mum he was in the local she was in local hospice and she was doing everything to raise I think she raised like 350 something pounds and she was like and you know we didn't give her any of that money like she was thinking of all different ways she was going through things again can I sell that mum can you can you sell that for me can you sell that um she did a walk she was trying you know she did a 10k walk she was like and I knew how much effort went into raising that amount of money and how proud she was when we took it to the local hospice and she dropped it off she was so proud and that it like underpins the values of everything else's story is like we want to help other children to fundraise not because the money they can fundraise but what it means to them we've created a fundraising hoodie that children have designed and once you fundraise you get awarded with this hoodie and you have war you wear it with pride because that is what i think elsie would like not only would she have loved to design something like she got a hoodie that she could have wore elsie would elsie would love it you also want people to be proud of being from southport and you want that community to really yeah pull together they're incredible and uh at any given opportunity i say how incredible the town has been there is no doubt that when it first happened i just wanted to pack my bags and i wanted to leave and never come back um but that whole town just stopped stopped like you know people say when you lose one the world carries on it did not carry on um and they were like with us like that day to this very day they've just like that town's never left our sides like um yeah i think it's it's been my home my whole life and it will remain my home for the rest of my life and it will always be elsie's home and i'm just so thankful for everything that the town Merseyside, everybody's done for us because you know as many times they've saved us the way that they've supported Elsie's story enables us to make this difference and and help you know such an important legacy for her We were talking earlier but there's so much history around Southport Southport used to be the place to be and actually one thing that you're doing is you're trying to restore bits of it and kind of bring that back so that people don't just think of Southport for this attack, but actually, what an amazing community, what an amazing place.

1:11:03There's so much good there. There is, and absolutely is. And obviously, as myself, David, Alex, Sergio, Lauren and Ben, And we've come together to, we went to the government, we went to Liverpool City Region, everything, to get the funds to regenerate the town centre. And, you know, last week we've seen the Plano Plans and I think we're creating a space that Southport will be extremely proud of. And I said that kids will be at the heart of it. They absolutely are. Not just from the design and everything, but the longevity of how we use that as a community space and how children will be a part of that makes it so special.

1:11:53And, yeah, you know, I think I've said it before, but I really do hope that in time people come and see Southport and they really do see how we've come together because it's a special town. Yeah. And it has special people that live there. And Elsie was one of them. if you could write a letter on motherhood who would it be to and what would you say it'd have to be to her god it would be the best letter I could ever write I'd say to her I know I have no regrets I will say that I'd never say I wish I'd told her a lot more because we had such a happy life I have no regrets I'd tell her everything we were doing and I'd say I hope I'm making you proud and will work as hard as is possible to make sure you make a difference else because you deserve everything and more.

1:12:55But then I'd have to write a second letter to a sister because she'd never forgive me. So, yeah, I'd... And do you know what? Maybe I should write her a letter. You know, I guess that book you're keeping in her bedroom. Yeah, David's definitely better than me. But yeah, I think I do need to do it more. Yeah, I do. And I think, yeah, it'd be a very special letter to write. Gem, we end the podcast with you completing three sentences. The first one is being a mum means.

1:13:39being a mum means trying your best

1:13:46and you know what your best might look different every day but that's okay as long as you can get to the end of each day and say i've tried my best today don't worry about anyone else giving you advice on how to whether it's been grieving or be a parent or anything, don't worry about that. Just long as you know yourself, like, I know I've tried my best today. And even if that looked different to yesterday, I think that's what being a mum is. Since having children, I... I've never felt love like that.

1:14:26The final sentence. I'm happy when...

1:14:34I feel so many different emotions daily.

1:14:41I can laugh because someone can tell me to look funny. Yeah. And I find that funny. I'm not, you know, or I can feel a little bit of joy in something, you know, whether that's making a difference to your story or something, as his sister has done. But happiness and what I see happiness as. I was happy before. and after that day I was stripped of any possibility of me being happy again and I must be a really tricky thing to balance when with your youngest you want her to feel happiness every day so not feeling happy yourself but trying to ensure that there is happiness in your youngest life that must be such a difficult thing to to to juggle yeah i you know christmas is a prime example of that yeah every respect for every parent out there that tries and i think there was something flying around on instagram saying that makes christmas magical when you feel no magic yourself and you know when you're going through the worst possible time you're trying everything for someone else and that's just you're trying your best yeah it's like you were saying as well so i think people will assume that certain times of the year are tough else's birthday christmas i would imagine the summer holidays bring their own um the anniversary uh but actually as you were saying each day every day brings its own challenges and its own mix of emotions.

1:16:21Yeah, every day. With Elsie's story, I feel like you've created something that even if you are not able to feel that happiness again, you've created something that will bring other people happiness. It's my only hope. And it's why, well, not why, the main reason, but one of the main reasons, because that's what Elsie would have wanted. I know what she would have wanted. I knew her better than anyone else. Like, you know, all she ever wanted to do is bring happiness to other people, and that's my job now. I have to do that for her. Oh, you're doing an amazing job. You really are. I knew this chat was going to be a tough one, but the fact that it was something that you wanted to do, to hear about Elsie to hear about your youngest it's so hard isn't it because you want to celebrate a human but you also have to talk about the difficult parts of grief but you've been so open and and that is just simply remarkable keep doing everything you can for Elsie's story and know that we're here if you need anything.

1:17:44Thank you. Yeah, thank you for giving us a little piece of your heart today. Thank you for listening to it and for giving me such a safe place to do it. You really are, mate. Thank you. Thank you. Come here.

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