Intrusive Thoughts, Exhaustion & Crippling Shame: Kimberley Nixon’s Postnatal OCD Reality

0:00Kimberley Nixon: I'm Dr. Susan Swick, a child psychiatrist and the host of TalkAboutable. This season, I'm talking with parents and experts about how we tackle the everyday challenges of raising kids. We'll get real about those pebble-in-the-shoe issues we all face as parents and how to build resilience and community through our own experiences. TalkAboutable Season 2 from Lemonada Media in partnership with Montage Health and their Ohana Center for Child and Family Mental Health is out now. Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner. Obsessed. I'm spending it right now on the lip gloss that's been sitting in my cart.

0:36What do you mean spending it right now? You can instantly spend your balance with the Venmo debit card or when you pay with Venmo at checkout. Stop. Say more. More exactly. The more you do with Venmo, the more you get. Like earning up to 5 % cash back with Venmo Stash. Get the Venmo debit card or checkout online. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. Max$100 per month. See terms at venmo.me slash stashterms. Venmo checkout, not available at all merchants. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A.

1:10Kimberley Nixon: Pool days call for cookouts and lots of laundry. This Memorial Day at Lowe's. Save$80 on a Charbroil Performance Series 4 Burner Gas Grill. Now just$199. Plus, get up to 45 % off select major appliances to keep dishes, clothes and food fresh. Having fun in the sun is easy with us in your corner. Our best line-up is here at Lowe's. Ballot through 527. While supplies last, selection varies by location. See associate or lowes.com for details. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum. Before we go into this week's chat, I just want to do a little bit of a trigger warning at the top. We talk about post-NATO OCD and with that, Kimberly talks a lot about suicidal thoughts.

1:56So if you feel like this isn't the episode for you to listen to right now, that's OK. There are many others for you to go back to or to discover. So if you do need to step away, that's absolutely fine.

2:13I have been following Kimberly for a while. She is an amazing actress. She's a BAFTA winning, a BAFTA winning actress. She's been in Fresh Meat, Wild Child, Under Saltmarsh. She, in recent years, has been talking a lot about maternal mental health. And she's become a real leading voice in this field and letting people know that we can talk about these difficult subjects. And actually, we discuss in this episode how freeing it actually is. I think when we are going through something in this way with feeling of not being enough, a feeling like the world would be a better place without you in it, being able to take back the control and talk about those thoughts, those feelings, and doing so to help others, it actually helps you back in return.

3:04You know what I mean? It's kind of like you're no longer giving control to that beast. Kimberley is funny. I think that's really important, really important, actually, to highlight. that, you know, we talk about big, heavy stuff. We cry. But also there is there's a lot of laughter within this chat because Kimberly, when she's talking about stuff, she just has this beautiful touch that is funny, endearing. And she is. Yeah, she's just charming and lovely to be around. So, as I say, there's a there's a lot that we talk about that is heavy, but there's there's lots of joy within it as well. So today's episode is with Kimberly Nixon.

3:45feel free to fiddle with your knobs that's what got me into this in the first place thank you oh dear me I just fiddle all of them and make it look like I know what I'm doing it was very much my approach to trying to conceive give it a good bash just hit anything you'll be fine thank you so much for being here I know that I randomly slipped into your DMs I was looking earlier That's a sexy way of putting it, isn't it? I did Isn't that what kids say? I came on to you in the DMs, it's true You slid into my DMs She did No, but you'd been on, it was Bryony's podcast You'd been on a podcast And I don't even know Because I listened to it today And it came up that we had been talking about you In a happy mum had baby meeting Like we do a guest brainstorm And we'd been talking about you And so I was on your profile looking through different things.

4:44And that day you just recorded her podcast. Yes. And you were having instant kind of feeling of, oh, fuck. Yes. And I can remember leaving you a voice note. Just literally. So nice. And so like weird, but like in a good way. Thank you. No, in a good way. Because for me, I live in the South Wales Valleys. I was in my like hometown of Ponte. And then like a famous person off the telly's left me a voice note. I'm just like, what? So for me, you know, you're a kind of well-known figure and you reached out and said, it's cool. It's OK. And I heard what you said and there's nothing to fear. Yeah. It's really empowering, really, because then you're like, OK.

5:34OK, I did that thing and the world didn't end. and okay be brave and then I share more people share more with me and so um yeah so it's a kind of it's a it's that's one of the few good vicious circles I think of women supporting each other yeah and I think it's just so important that we do that we do talk that we do reach out because I think um I've learned a lot over the years that if we put stuff out there if people don't reach out when they've seen stuff and we don't always have to I think sometimes there's just that thing in you that goes, I need to message that person. And you might get nothing back.

6:11A lot of people already have it in their minds. People have seen it. They think this of me. Do you know what I mean? So I know that my head goes there. Immediately negative. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Always. They think I'm a dick. They've seen it. And they think I'm amazing. I've never once thought that from anything, ever. Like any personal interaction to audition, to job. it's like TV show's gone out I'm brilliant never once like genuinely I was getting a BAFTA once and I was still like you sure I think they've said the wrong name I'm just like I'm not getting this at all but you just don't you immediately you go to and especially from silence of oh god people didn't get it they're judging me I'm a terrible person and I think letting people know that I saw I saw the thing you did and I see it and I feel it and I resonate with it and it's okay yeah yeah it's a good thing it's great let's talk about your childhood oh god come on you know how this works I know you listen 1985 1984 same as me 1985 1985, I was just talking about this earlier.

7:36I'm born, I was born in September 1985, September 24th. So you're about to turn 40. My parent, no, I'm 40. Oh my gosh, yes, because I'm 41.

7:51Yes, you've had your 40s. Are you okay? I don't know, Kimberly, I was so sorry. Yes, so my parents started the year off with a bang. and then nine months later um i love that we're going way back we're going way back okay so yeah um have i made this up or uh do you have six older brothers i have six brothers they're not all older okay so i've got four older and two younger jeez louise yes so um but i do have six brothers yes um and uh so that i kind of talk about it a little bit in the book but yeah growing up with lots of boys um just made me more innately comfortable around boys and around and around blokes because I just sort of knew where I was and then I went to drama school and I moved into a house of women and I didn't know what was happening like I remember calling my dad going I've just gone in the bathroom and there's like 50 bottles everywhere like we had one just one that'll do it does everything that one the three in one just the three in one I was just like I just had no idea what all these different like potions and lotions are for and then I slowly kind of kind of learnt to be to be a bit girlier but yeah and my dad always used to call sanitary towels the things with the wings and so once a month um he just got you the things with the wings and then slide a box of Maltesers towards me and I was like okay no idea what's happening but good that's a really interesting thing as well like for a dad to be kind of like okay I've got to got to take this role on yeah yeah so I've got you the things with the wings you seem sad but I don't want to go into it so that was really like yeah that was really really interesting And then Jess, my best friend who I talk about in the book, was like my really one of my only female through my teen years growing up.

9:55And she just despair, honestly despair. Really? Yeah, just telling me things that she thought all girls knew. And I was just like, you can't sit down with a tampon in. What? I was like, well, it sticks out, it hits. And she's like, you're not doing it correctly. You're not doing it correctly. and I was like oh okay you know just like heels and makeup and you know take that off and it just wasn't it was just a full tomboy so it was great she actually just texted me because she loves you and she texted me hi Jess but she was so passive aggressive it was like hey happy publication day yeah have a good time with Giovanna don't become friends with her.

10:44I thought the three of us were going to hang up. But fair enough, Jess. No, she's very, she's very, she's, she has peed around me. So the territory has been set, which will make me laugh. Fair, fair. Yeah. She's been there for a long time. Yeah, to be fair, she's put in the hard yards. She's put in tampons as well. She's just, we've seen each other's bits. It's all, yeah, it's all good. When you were younger, coming from a big family, do you feel like you already had, like, an idea of what you would like in an ideal world if we could all pick in your future yes it's really interesting because you know I've got I've got one son yeah and um if you'd have asked me 10 years ago when we first started trying to have a family um it just never occurred to me that it would just be one um I just I just in that kind of way that you can be maybe in your like early 20s mid 20s like oh in the future yeah a couple of kids a couple of kids running around climbing trees you know also interesting you didn't go for the seven you went for I mean I know I know because I knew that was nuts like I knew like I knew not only child because that was an that was an experience I couldn't quite relate to but not seven like watch tv once in a while do you know what I mean like what's the matter there are other things to do there are other things to do apart from each other um um and so yeah no i knew it was that that was crazy i mean you know especially for the woman yeah she's the one who has to do it it's easy for all the boys to go yeah i'd love seven kids would you would you um so i knew it wasn't that but i think i always thought kind of too i always imagined they'd have um siblings and best friends for life and and and and that kind of thing and so um now we have the one and obviously if there was going to be another one get a shift on because you're in your 40s but also um I had a really bad time it took it took a you know it took a really long time to to to get back on an even keel and we would have to do IVF which is incredibly expensive and just on its own, you know, hormonally, physically, mentally, emotionally, then you get pregnant and then you have to do the whole thing again.

13:07And actually, you know, I got pregnant with IVF, had the baby, and that's when my troubles began. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is a weird one. It sits weirdly with me. it's not how I quite saw things but he's so great like he's so great he's like sunshine in a bottle and um it's just like I'm like welling up thinking about him um he's just he's great and we've we've the three of us and my husband my son and I have been through a lot in a short space of time yeah and we're just on an even keel and enjoying life and enjoying each other and we're a little team now yeah so it's good it's okay it's different but good yeah yeah and sometimes the idea of bringing anything in or chasing anything that might really rock that you know that sense of stability that you've got even if it didn't the idea of it yes can be a lot but I also think that it's okay to to voice I think with everything to do with pregnancy birth the postpartum everything is is not about how you should feel what you should be doing it everything is valid within that and so you know i i know for example with jess she's got four boys and i know that there was a little part of her was like oh i'm never gonna have a daughter yeah like i love my boys but that's just that's a kind of little dream life that's not gonna happen and And same for me, you know, like, and I probably won't have another, won't have another baby and I won't be pregnant again.

14:47And I won't have a postpartum experience that is semi nice. I can't imagine it. I can't imagine what that would be like. So, you know, that's okay to acknowledge that. That's, that's fine. And to, you know, be disappointed or whatever. But there's no point in, like, pretending or hiding. No. You and your husband have been together for a very long time. Very long time. You and your husband have been together for a very long time. Yeah. Yeah. How long? 23 years. Oh, you've beaten us.

15:2621 and a half. We're 22 and a half. October's our 23. Yes, September's our 22. You're literally trying to recalculate. September's our 22. Yeah. So yes, a really long time. A really, really long time. So when you were younger, did you two used to have chats about when we're older, when we're going to have that family? Yeah, but just in that wonderful way that like I'm doing my life now and I'm wonderfully selfish in a brilliant way that I'm just like working on my career and we can do what we want and we can go out and I can sleep late and all those the best bits. but with just this certainty, this wide-eyed certainty like, oh, in 15 years we'll have like two, three kids.

16:09Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't think any different. And it'll all be fine. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, in a lovely way, you know, like, oh, you know when we have a kid, you know when we have a son, you know when we do what's a great name, Tiberius. And just like, we should name all our kids after Roman emperors. That kind of just silliness that you just throw away thinking, Yeah, it's in the future. And now, you know, I'm 40, I'm married, I have a son, and I'm in that future that I dreamt so much and thought so much about. And spoiler alert, you didn't name your son after a Roman emperor. I didn't. That's a shame.

16:53I didn't. It's a shame. I didn't. Because I just, I wanted him to find his own way. Which is good. I don't want to put too much expectation on him. That's true, yeah. It's not fair to them. It's not fair. I think when you're an actor, it's very difficult to kind of piece life together in terms of, right, right, I'm at this age now and actually I do think that I would quite like to start a family. It's very difficult. I can remember never wanting to book a holiday just in case. Oh, God, I still can't. You know that an audition... I still don't. You know that something, you know... People invite me to weddings next year.

17:30Yeah. I have no idea what I'm going to be doing. I have no... Do you know, actually, someone asked me what I was doing, something about next April, and I was like, I've got something on, I know, I couldn't. And I went in my calendar and I was looking, and I was like, what have I got on? Have I said yes to something next April? And I just realised it's when Heated Rivalry 2 comes out. See, that's what I make people like. Very busy time. Second series. I was like, well, April's blocked off then. And I was just like, you're 40 and a mother, you need to sort your life out. Genuinely. That is not, that is not the diary of a grown-up.

18:09So, yeah. But there is, like, I've never, I've never booked a holiday without weirdly asking permission. Yeah. Checking in with your agent and, and had a haircut. Yeah. Yeah. without when I recently did it and about like because I had longer hair and I went and had it all chopped off and I didn't tell anybody um and that was really weirdly about I was just like this should not be as big of a deal as it is but it was because you know you have to look like your headshots you people expect you to you know if they think you're if they think you're blonde when you're going to come into the room for an audition that just things like that can and you come in with a red bob it's going to throw them um so i just i got i kind of never got out of that way of thinking and then i was just actually it was a spite haircut because as i was leaving yeah i said i'm popping to town i'm just gonna have a haircut and as i was going through the door my husband went don't have it too short challenge accepted so then i gave i literally went and i sat down and she said what are we doing and i said i came for a trim but just cut it all off I was like just cut it up to the chin and she was like really?

19:17I went yeah my husband's annoyed me and she was like great and she just did it before I could think about it and then I came in and I was like like a peacock I came home and he just went you're such a knob because he knew I did it just to annoy him but I'm liking it it's good have you had to have any headshots done? no I'm just going to I'll just say imagine it shorter same just put your thumb over the end Just where my ears are, put your thumbs. And that's how long my hair is now. Actually, by the time I get my next job, it'll be long again. So don't worry about it. Don't worry. So actually going, right, after all these years together, let's start a family.

20:01Did that feel like a big moment for you two to kind of go, this is it? Yes, it really did, really did. Because I'd been scared of it for such a long time. You know, I think I'd just been terrified of birth since I was little. I remember being a little girl and knowing one day I would have to give birth. I can't do that. What if I can't do it? What if I can't do it right? And I knew it would hurt, but I also just, I just, I wrapped myself up so much into it. And so me deciding to not take the, we're going to start a family. I'm not taking the pill. I'll be pregnant in a week. And then the world going, nah, that's not how things work.

20:44It kind of did feel momentous. And even just for my husband to go, I think wanting to keep, well, that's in the future. That's in the future. And it's a kind of, it's a sobering thing to go, I think the future's now. Yeah. And then, so yeah, so then we started trying to have a baby. And again, really difficult to plan around that as a freelance because you are, you're constantly going, maybe I'll be pregnant. Maybe I'll be pregnant. And everything that comes along is that maybe, maybe, maybe. Maybe I'll be pregnant. Maybe I'll have a baby. Maybe I'll get a job. What are the rules? Do I have to tell them?

21:16What's the, you know, maybe I get pregnant and then I can't work for the next three years because of whatever reason and stuff. So, yeah, it was, it was, there were lots of factors where it was very difficult to, because I knew that if I got pregnant and had a baby, I wouldn't be earning any money. You know, you don't get maternity leave. You don't get pay in that way.

21:45And there was a thing. I think it's different now, but I think maybe 10 years ago, there was a thing of like, oh, you're taking yourself out of the game. And I was like, I don't really know the rules to this game anyway. So I think it's okay. But there was. It's not. I do get the feeling that it's different now to be especially an actress. Yeah. um we're having babies you know um raising kids um before especially maybe in your 20s it was no you'll never make it if you do that they'd be like okay and then these women you know they work incredibly hard at their careers and they get into their like mid to late 40s and they're like you didn't have kids and you're just like and then you realize oh you can't win no you can't You can never win.

22:37Just got to do what's working for you. In any way, you can never, ever win how you decide to get pregnant, when you decide to get pregnant, how you decide to raise your kids, how you decide to feed your kids. It doesn't matter what you do, then you will be... Criticised. You will be criticised. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, I say, I mention it in the book, there was a point where we had been trying for a few years, but we hadn't been telling anybody. And obviously, we'd been together a long time. and we'd been married a few years and everyone was, you know, when are you having kids? When are you having kids?

23:08And people assuming that because I was an actress that I was putting my career first and it's very selfish for your husband, you know. I'd be like... Yeah, especially when people don't know what you're going through. I just got my period this morning and I want to cry on the inside but I'm definitely selfish. Thank you. It's just, you know, it's crazy. And then again, only having one child I didn't know that Are you going to give him a brother or a sister? It's lonely Lonely And you're just like He's not lonely He's got so many people in his life who love him He's never alone It's just those voices And I think sometimes they don't necessarily Actually think about what they are saying They're just words They're actually I think Words that have been passed down From generation to generation So I think if they were to go back to how they felt when those words were said to them, they'd kind of, you know, but it's just like...

24:09Yeah. And actually it was a bit of a game changer when people kept asking and since having my son, when I meet new people and they say, do you have any children? And I say, yes, I have a son. And they go, oh, you're going to have another one. Now my approach is so different and I just go, I can't. And they go... Shut up instantly, yeah. But also as if you brought it up. Like, oh, well, that's very, like, you know, I'd have to do IVF. It'd be a whole thing. And, you know, vaginal scans and hormone injections. And then they're just like, oh, God. It's like you came to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You came to me.

24:44It's very much in the same vein as people going, are you on TV? And then you running through your CV and then going, no, I haven't. Like, why have you wasted my time? I don't recognize you from anything you've just said. It's like, so now when people go, are you on TV? I go, yeah, sometimes. that's it and leave it to them to figure it out you know and it's just a slightly different approach but it's again incredibly freeing yeah how many years into trying or not trying if you like um did you realize actually maybe we have to seek medical help for this yes so I think we got married when I was 29 and then I think it was the 30 thing it was like oh my god you're 30 and I didn't understand any of my biology at the time and I was just like I think I've got six eggs left I don't know how this works quick without knowing at all I've only got six I don't know all I'm picturing is a very empty basket that's all I'm picturing um and so I think about a year in I turned 30 we were married it was kind of like we're in our 30s now maybe we should think about it and then it was just like okay I'm gonna stop taking the pill and it was all very romantic and it was all very lovely I'm gonna start this family it's gonna be wonderful it's gonna bring us together and then you know six months later nothing a year later I think it's I think it says on the NHS website a year of natural trying and nothing so we kind of went along to the doctor as a sort of afterthought of well we'll go but it's gonna happen it's not a problem um and it being quite sobering with with with the doctor actually saying okay well with it with a year of trying to conceive naturally I would have thought something would have happened so let's start looking into stuff and then it was a year or two of investigations and being put on the IVF list a list and again you're you're they're like we're gonna put you on the IVF list now because it's such a long wait but we're still very naive and yeah we're not gonna need it we're not gonna get there we're never gonna I'll just get pregnant along the way it's just gonna happen and then suddenly you're getting a call it's your turn for IVF it's like no I'm no I'm actually waiting to get pregnant naturally thanks though um and you know and you just and you're like oh my goodness it's been another two years I know and yeah of doing it in your fertile window and it becoming more less romantic yeah more resentful um and yeah okay we need help it's just frustrating isn't it to be in that position where you see other people with those pregnancy enhancements or walking around with a baby and your friends you know life seems to be moving forward but for you you're there's that feeling of being stuck yes definitely definitely of being stuck and um again I think like my job has played into that and it's why I've changed slightly you know that when when you're an actor you don't have you don't have co-workers in the same as everybody else nobody has the same career path as you every job is different and so when you get a job and you're filming for six weeks you have lovely you know cast mates and crew and it's great and then everyone go home and you're just languishing you're sending self-tapes and doing auditions sort of all out in the ether waiting for somebody to say yes um but you're by yourself and from from social media from you know all that kind of stuff everyone's doing so well everyone's constantly working everyone's doing better than you um and it was the same with with the pregnancy thing and then when I became a mum it was definitely the same with yeah everyone's taking to this so naturally they all seem so happy this is the darkest time of my life I don't understand and then breaking through that to go do you do you find motherhood quite difficult and every single mother I've ever asked that question to going yes in some capacity yeah you know whether it be physically emotionally mentally um but you do you just from afar everybody else has got it together yeah absolutely and really growing up is realizing everybody's winging it yeah everybody's winging it Like the most together person you know is winging it, I promise.

29:37Absolutely. Yeah. When you got that, you know, call or email to say, right, we're going to, you're on the top of the list now, we're doing it now. How did that feel to start going down that route? Exciting because something was finally happening. um now i think but i didn't think this at the time but now i think back um a little bit of failure yeah i didn't i couldn't do it naturally we didn't do it naturally it didn't just happen the stars didn't align you know our great true love didn't mean anything all that kind of stuff um so a little bit of okay so we have to do this a different a different way okay that's okay then But once you do get that call, things start moving pretty quickly.

30:27And then it's this regimen of jabs and scans and all that. So it was kind of like, oh, my goodness. That's suddenly a lot. I could be pregnant. Yeah. Like, I've wanted to be pregnant for so long. And every month I hope I'm pregnant, but no, I'm really not. But I could actually be pregnant. Do I want to be pregnant? do I want kids I mean I did like five years ago when we started but I don't know what I want I'm just but I'm on the list now so it's like I've been strapped into the roller coaster I want to get off this ride it's like no um so yeah lots of lots of different emotions but like I said it started it started going um pretty quickly and um and in this in the same way that I I was always terrified of childbirth.

31:18I was like, I can't do IVF. I'm not strong enough to do IVF. That's for really strong women who've got it together and know. I was like, I won't last five minutes doing IVF. And then I did.

31:34Kimberley Nixon: Active Campaign is the marketing automation platform built for big swings and big dreams. With intelligent suggestions powered by AI and your data. Generate ideas in seconds. import your brand, and create full campaigns with simple prompts. Send personalized messages backed by real-time feedback, smart segmentation, and effortless reporting that tracks every win. Let's redefine what's possible together. Get started for free at ActiveCampaign.com. Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner. Obsessed. I'm spending it right now on the lip gloss that's been sitting in my cart. What do you mean spending it right now?

32:12You can instantly spend your balance with the Venmo debit card or when you pay with Venmo at checkout. Stop. Say more. More exactly. The more you do with Venmo, the more you get. Like earning up to 5 % cash back with Venmo Stash. Get the Venmo debit card or checkout online. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. Max$100 per month. See terms at venmo.me slash stashterms. Venmo checkout not available at all merchants. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A.

32:49well how long had you been um trying going down the IVF route before falling pregnant for four or five years really yeah okay yes we started when I was 30 yeah I got pregnant when I was 35 yeah and I just turned 36 and then had my son yeah yeah so along so through from from going let's start a family this is so romantic oh my god um at 30 to having a baby put in my arms at 56 yeah how was it taking that test and realizing you were pregnant it was it was amazing it was um again I talk about in the book how I was secretly testing because you're not supposed to test you did it on day literally I got home yeah I got home I was like I remember they put the embryo back in and then I said to my husband what if it falls out and he went oh god and then they gave me a leaflet and the top one was what if it falls out and I was like thank god there are other women like me um and then I got home and he was he was kind of like don't test and I was like I won't big wink of course I will and I just ran um and then you're supposed to wait two weeks yeah um and um just testing every every day and I think on like maybe the fifth or sixth day there was the absolute like faintest line ever and I was like I'm imagining this and then every day it got a little bit more a little bit more defined until I think it wasn't quite two weeks it was maybe like 12 days and I was like that's two lines that's definitely two lines and I ran from the bathroom and just jumped on my husband because he was sleeping in bed and just shoved this pissy stick in his face and I was like had you not showed any of the fake lines before that?

34:40had you just kept it secret? he knew, we all knew it was like a it was you know, it was like an affair he knew about but I would like I'd kept them and written on the tests, you know, how many days days post transfer it was and then it was, like we were beaming we were absolutely beaming I've got the picture we did a selfie with the stick he's literally just woken up he's like that but he's beaming and I'm beaming and we did it and it's going to be it's going to be smooth sailing from here yeah because you do go I've been on such a you know an exhibition exhibition we've done the hard bit yeah expedition there we go Although IVF is a bit of an exhibition.

35:39You know what? I spend my days when I'm writing, I literally think of words and go, no, that's not the word. That's me. That's my day gone. Going, what is the word? I literally just all day go to my husband, when you put it in and then you're... You know, the thing. The thing with the... I'm just like... Astute. That's it. He's like, what did any of that have to do with it? And I'm like, don't worry, I just needed to find it myself. But you've been on that, you know, you've done so much to get to that point. It feels like you've got what you wanted there. That's it. So we did. We got what we wanted.

36:16And I was pregnant. I'm just so excited and obviously nervous that, you know, it might not work out. Well, that joy was very short-lived as well. You then got a phone call. Yes. Yes. Yes, so quite early on, I think five weeks, six weeks, the IVF clinic are monitoring your HCG levels. And they should just be ramping up, ramping right up. And they had to call me and say, yours have fallen off a cliff, which means you're likely to miscarry. um and then you know you I was on Reddit and Mumsnet and just trying to find anyone who'd ever anyone out there that their numbers had dropped but it meant they were still pregnant and everyone was like no no so that was a kind of come back down to earth um our town got completely flooded out by storm dennis like wiped out um and then a week or two after that covid there's this thing called covid and we don't know what it is and we're going into a lockdown and that means that you can't see your family or your friends um we don't know how long for but if you're pregnant don't see anybody and and so yeah it was um the world changed really quickly yeah well what was your pregnancy like because obviously you had that phone call in the morning in in the beginning then you find out now actually it's all fine it's all fine the baby is fine yeah really strong heartbeat lockdown happens like how how did your your pregnancy feel at a time that everyone is really isolated as well yeah the first actually lockdown worked in my favor and because I was so nauseous I had such horrendous um morning sickness and it is not morning sickness it is 24 7 you're on a ship at sea I just oh my goodness and I had that right up until I think literally about a week before my 20-week scan right and it was just that it was me lying down trying not to be sick and I was like this isn't fun at all and then the more pregnant I started to look like I started getting a bump and I started feeling little kicks and I just felt amazing the second half of my pregnancy was was was tricky in that you know my husband couldn't come to scans or appointments with me um most of my most of my appointments were over the phone anyway I didn't really see anybody but in other ways the whole world stopped and calmed down and um my husband was at home with me and we could just be in the garden all day because it was like beautiful weather and I could go on long walks with my dog and and I wasn't missing out on any job opportunities uh-huh I was like I think I've nailed this timing because no one's doing anything And she stood down.

39:23Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you're going to get pregnant, you know. And so, yeah, so the second half of it, I loved being pregnant in that second half. I mean, in a way that I was saying, you know, there is a wistfulness in, that's probably never going to happen again. Yeah. Yeah. How did you feel heading towards a birth? Because obviously you've said that that was your big fear from early childhood. Yeah. And I wonder if actually is that if that's linked to the fact that you wrote so many letters to your MP. Because obviously at that point, having that fear and knowing that there are now so many things in place that say your partner, your birthing partner or father of your child, mother of your child cannot be in the room with you.

40:11Yes. Until this point. Yes. And they have to leave after this point. That must have been. But also just constantly changing. Yeah. That was the other thing. I was like, I just need to know, like, as long as I know what the rules are, then I can plan for it in my head. But you keep moving the goalposts. And, you know, that that's definitely, you know, I didn't know I was autistic when I was pregnant. And knowing it now, I see I can see things differently. But I think that's where the anxiety was coming from, that you're you're changing things and you're changing things really at the last minute.

40:48and you know when you get to like 36 weeks you can basically you know you can go at any time yeah and from week to week it different things were um more rights were coming back some were taken away and I always just seem to miss the boat on oh we'll allow partner scans but not for your scans because you're doing later ones oh we'll we'll start allowing in-person health visitor appointments but not yet not for you it was kind of it was all it was it was all of those things and I think that's where the the anxiety of like I just need to know what's going to happen because I don't know what's going to happen or how or when all those things but I need to know that that he can be there yeah give me that just give me that that's all I want just let me know that he can be there Did you get any sort of safety within that as you got closer?

41:44No, because was it November? October. October. So around that time, Wales were doing all sorts of things. Yeah. Well, we all were. Yes, yes. And I talk about how my cousin was pregnant at the same time, also called Kimberley, long story. But she gave birth in England and the rules were totally different. And it was just like, but how does that make sense? How can she have two birthing partners and I can't have anyone? What are you talking about? And then as we got nearer and nearer and my anxiety was going up and up and there was sort of potential placenta previa and they weren't sure if it was going to move.

42:20And then it looked like it was starting to move. And I was like, I can't. I spoke to the consultant midwife. I did the idea of not having any control over what's going to happen and I'm going to be on my own or you're going to induce me and I'm going to be on a ward for three days by myself. um I can't we so we it was in the end it was a planned c-section yeah which gave me more rights he was allowed to be with me from going into the hospital right up to the birth and then an hour after whereas if I'd have gone in to be induced or I was less than five centimeters he wouldn't have been able to be with me.

43:05So, you know, it was, okay, this is slightly more, okay, I know. And was that okay in your brain? Because for some people, the idea of having that switch, there's that feeling of, again, it's another spot to feel like a failure. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Were you instantly able to go, I'm going to park that. That's not right for us right now. This is the route that we're going to. I mean, there was always an element of, now you're not even going to give birth. Now you're not even going to, so you didn't get pregnant naturally, and now you're not even going to give birth. But at the time, it being, this is a really weird world we're living in.

43:50And I haven't been able to hug my dad in six months. and he's just been seeing me get bigger and bigger with my bump from afar, you know, and this is just that unprecedented times phrase that they kept spearing out. But it really was, and it was, this is the best for us right now. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. How did you feel getting closer to that day? Nervous. Nervous that I was going to go into labour early and then that would throw out the whole plan. So there was that. But kind of trying to get my head around that and being, it will be OK, it'll be OK. Looking into home birth and then going, absolutely not.

44:34But actually, they stopped. They wouldn't allow midwives to go out, I guess. Yes. And they couldn't guarantee. And it was just like, it's my first baby. I have no idea what I'm doing. There's absolutely, you know, that seemed too dangerous for me. Just all of your options were just being limited and limited and limited. And so by the time I went in and you have this baby, you feel like you have no power and no control over your body, over what's happening around you. And it's really disconcerting and it's not the best start. But the day before, I'd made it to the Sunday and he was going to be born on a Monday.

45:17And I was like, OK, unless I go into labor overnight, which is very, probably won't happen. I've done it. I've done pregnancy. I've actually loved this last bit. And he's huge. And tomorrow I'm going to hold him. And his little next to me crib was ready. And he was going to be here with us. Like we couldn't, we just couldn't wait. We were so excited. It had been such a long time. I mean, by the time he was born, we'd been together 16 years, you know. And we were just ready. Everything was ready for him to arrive. and I was like, okay, it's going to happen. You're going to do it. And this time next week, you'll have found your flow and you'll be your mum.

46:05You'll be your mum and you'll be flying and you'll be push-chairs and lattes in the park. Just get through the next week and you'll be fine. So the next day, going into hospital. Yes. What was that like, that sudden realisation of this is it this we're doing this right now uh scary I mean it's really scary it's just such a it's such a unique experience you wake up with this huge bump and then you're going into a into a place where you're you know you're entering a very clinical surgical environment which I'm not ever very comfortable in and I don't like the lighting I don't like the noises again autism that I didn't know about.

46:47We did have a little kind of breaking tension that we did laugh because you were supposed to shave your bit so you can see. And the nurse came around and she went, did you manage to shave down there? And I went, yeah, no, I did it yesterday. And she just went, she kind of looked and went, get me the razor. And I thought we were laughing. We don't know what it looked like down there, but it was not, it was not shaved to a certain standard. so we were kind of like laughed about that and then obviously if you're elected and any emergencies come in you get bumped a little bit and so it was a little bit later in the in the day I was just hungry more than anything you can't eat and then suddenly they're wheeling you in it's like okay okay this is good and everything was very calm and my husband was with me holding my hand the whole time and they did the whole needle in the back thing and and then they started doing it it was like oh my god I'm gonna see him any second any second they're gonna lift him up and I'm gonna to see him and still feeling anticipation and joy and I just wanted to hear him cry yeah because I knew from films that was important you know there's always that like but I just I wanted to hear him cry and if I could hear him cry and uh and so he didn't for a while as they as they held him up um and it just felt like a kind of fallback of why isn't he crying what are they going to tell me oh I'm losing lots of blood oh I'm going to pass out oh they're handing me a baby I'm throwing it back to my husband and I'm gone I'm passed out I lose a lot of blood and then sort of come around and I'm hooked up to blood transfusions and they're handing me this tiny little bundle pudgy faced thing that was in my belly like half an hour ago um and clamping him onto my boob which is unbelievably painful and I was like oh please just be good at this like please I was like I was almost like boobs please know what to do because I feel like I feel like I keep falling at every hurdle like biologically I was like please just know what to do and please just latch on and we'll be away and then that didn't happen either um but in the operating theater they held him up and I remember thinking oh my god that's my baby that's my baby that I made with my head it's our baby and then like a switch being flipped everything went dark just immediately it was like everything got turned upside down like the the the upside down in stranger things everything looked the same but was wrong but no one else was mentioning it like mentioning it so I was a bit like what are we not going to talk about this yeah we'll just talk we'll probably talk about it in a little bit once we've figured out the bleeding and the boobs and then you know okay we'll probably talk about it in a bit and still nothing um and i just i was it was just wrong that's all that's the only way i can describe it and i would imagine that that feeling is then exacerbated when a doctor comes in and realizes that the gurgling that your baby's making is not just nothing to worry about like the other people thought that actually it could be a symptom of sepsis it's all of a sudden yes that's a very big gear change in the room and we're in a room and my husband's just done the first change and I'm laughing at him trying not to gank and sort of like this is really feeling really weird not feeling right but I've never had a baby before maybe this is how everybody feels you know that's okay I'm sure I'm sure it'll pass I'm sure I'll feel better tomorrow um you haven't eaten you've lost blood I haven't eaten of course I haven't eaten I've lost blood I I I've literally been cut open you know all these things it's fine it's fine of course you're feeling off um but when they came in and everybody had so many uh masks like a mask and a visor and just so many layers and I couldn't read people's faces and I felt very I didn't know what anyone was trying to tell me um and he kind of the pediatrician came in and was like immediately heard the the gurgling noises and that we thought were really cute and he was like rushed out came back team comes in and then just wheels the baby away just like wheels this little baby away in this like horrible plastic cot and telling my husband who you're staying you're staying with your wife you're going with this you're going with your baby and you can't switch so if you go with your son now you won't see your wife again yeah um and me saying go go go text me and then just being in the room and then suddenly just all that noise all that overstimulation and then the door shutting and it's just being quiet really quiet and unnervingly quiet yeah in that way that kind of hospital settings are and just spiralling, not feeling right.

52:18Something's wrong or it's going to go wrong, so prepare for that. And then waiting for the news, just kept waiting for the news and I thought everybody was lying to me and I thought that people were trying not to upset me and I thought my husband wasn't telling me the truth. And then even when I found out that he was fine, everything was fine I just never believed it ever again I just I would stare and stare at the heartbeat and he was being monitored and I'd just been like imploring myself to believe what I was seeing and I couldn't Had anything like that ever happened to you before? Yes not in that way but yes I again I talk about it I wrote about it in the book because obviously I'd had OCD my whole life I had never known I was not I was not what you would consider OCD you know um yeah but that's also because there's just a very silly yeah loose idea of oh I had no idea like that the rumination and all that kind of stuff could be part of it so years before I'd been um I hadn't finished drama school yet I was watching I was away in Stratford-upon-Avon we were doing a Shakespeare thing with other drama schools and I was in a play and um I drifted off because it was mid-show oh my god it was like the fourth hour of a Shakespeare I was like and this is only the second part oh my god and and then my mind wandered you know I get I'm I get a bit oh distracted and um and just a really weird thought popped in and um uh I couldn't let it go it was like something had changed in my brain and it clung on to it and it was like why did you think that why did you think that what does that mean about you who are what are you you've awoken something what is this kind of just really thrown by it um and then spending basically the next sort of six months trying to get over that um being diagnosed with general anxiety disorder and kind kind of just putting it down to a weird blip, but entering my career with this shameful secret.

54:34Yeah. That, am I bad? Am I a monster? Is there something wrong with me? I'll just try to keep living. I'll just do that. I'll just keep living, job to job, day to day, you know, year to year. And so that, nowhere near as bad as the birth, but something like that had happened before and so with my husband we had that shorthand of me going it's happened again but I also think that because um then we were in hospital for four days or whatever it was um and my husband couldn't come in and see us I don't think it would have changed a lot but I think if my husband had come in say for visiting hours the next day and had seen me he would have immediately known something was wrong whereas I was surrounded by strangers who didn't know me so they didn't know I was acting differently.

55:27Right. And I was being very polite and very pliable and agreeing with everybody and I was, you know, no fuss. Yeah, you know, yeah, if you say, yeah, okay, yeah, fine, yeah, thank you, thank you. But not me. Yeah. And he would have seen that immediately. And then he would have been able to advocate on my behalf. he would have been able to say to somebody, that's not her, she's acting strangely. But no one knew that I was acting strangely because they'd never met me. Yeah. So it just wasn't, it was a bad start. Did you vocalise that to anyone in the hospital? I kept saying that I was crying a lot.

56:20That's normal. I kept saying that breastfeeding was excruciating like not just a bit uncomfortable or or you know I mean literally excruciating um I mean three days in I just you know boobs bleeding or just hot just so much pain and then every two hours you know he's going to feed again and you're dreading it and then um you know and then we find out and everyone kept saying his latch is perfect and anytime I brought up anything it was battered away like I I can't stop crying I can't stop feeling like something terrible is going to happen breastfeeding is excruciating it was all just no you'll be fine everybody cries uh his latch is perfect it's fine it's fine it's fine and um yeah I wish that I think things might have been a bit different if I'd have had someone there who knew me.

57:20Did part of you wonder if it would sort of not sort itself out, but certainly if being at home would make you feel better? Yes, no, it was getting home and I felt like I was in prison. I felt like I was in prison. Like I'd seen those documentaries of, you know, women who give birth in prison and that kind of, and I was like, yes, that's like this. Which it wasn't. But, you know, it was COVID regulations. You couldn't move around. You couldn't have visitors. You couldn't all this stuff. It's a thousand degrees. I've just got this sheen of sweat over me the whole time. I've got no, physically, I can't move the same way that I did.

57:59I can't kind of sit up and get into the, get to the cot. My baby looked alien to me. I didn't recognize him, which I know sounds really stupid when I say it, but I was like, I just thought I would recognize him. and I didn't and I was just I would just spend hours he would just I would sit on my bed with my kind of you know my feet together my knees apart kind of thing with him in the middle and just stay just stay and cry for hours at a time in the corner of the ward and everyone didn't think that was weird but I just thought if I can get home yeah if I can get home this will be a blip and I'll remember who I was and things will look normal again and my husband will be there and breastfeeding will probably, you know, I'm feeling a bit under the scrutiny of the nurses and I feel like, you know, I'm not doing it right so maybe that will be more relaxed.

58:59Again, that thing of, like, not everyone feels comfortable in a hospital. Again, that sensory thing, that overwhelm of being in that environment. Yes, and also the authority thing of someone telling you to do something. So, okay, you know, pop him on then. Doing it and I'm not doing it properly. I'm feeling very anxious that I'm not, you know, almost... Delivering in the way that they wish. Yes, you know, like this is an audition that I haven't lived the lines for. I'm not taking the direction properly. I just, I can't, and I'm so sorry. I'm just apologising. I was constantly apologising for everything.

59:32Like, I'm really sorry, but I need a wee. I'm so sorry, but would I be able to get some water? um i'm just i'm really i um i i can't stop crying like i you know and and with that clinging clinging in the hospital clinging to two things one get home and two this is just baby blues this is fine this is just two weeks of this if i two weeks of this okay not ideal but then i'll be fine

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1:01:18I mean, I wonder if you had vocalised the fact that light switch that I've heard you talk about before and it's in the book, it's such a clear marker. Do you know, I wonder if you'd have used that. Do you know what I mean? Like that thing of like, that is so sudden, so kind of like life flipped. Yes. But it happened the moment that a human being was pulled out of my body. So maybe that's it. Yeah. I don't know. I've never had that happen to me before. You know, this is a huge thing that my body's just been put through. This is a hugely, you know, in whatever way, traumatic event. It's probably just linked to that.

1:02:03And it'll sort itself out and I'll find my feet. And so often we think of trauma as this awful thing that's happened to you. That you know in the moment is trauma. Yeah. Whereas the reality of a C-section, of something coming out of your body in whatever way, when you do not know how that feels, you're so out of control within that. Yeah. That is traumatic. It is, yeah. Even if it's a joyous... When it started to go wrong and I started to bleed out and they weren't sure what drugs I'd had and my husband's standing there with this baby and it being very scary. And it's not your world. It's not your dominion.

1:02:46You don't have... well I felt anyway I mean I don't I still don't really know what my rights would were or are but you you're um you're not in charge in there it's it's a clinical environment and doctors and nurses tell you what's happening and what's going to happen and what's going you know what's going on um and there was a bit of a tussle getting him out because he was kind of stuck in and like really you know I was at the other end kind of being really like rocked around and just loads of people holding my, not holding my baby, but handling my baby before me and looking at him and not quite believing he was real and he was here and not feeling that whoosh of, oh my God, I'm in love.

1:03:38Like when people put those announcements up, I'm just like, you know, he's here. we're both so in love with what with what like what are you talking about like like i know like i knew innately knew that if anyone tried to harm him in any way like i would take a bullet for him and i met him a minute ago but i don't know if i love him i don't know yet gesagt Is that okay? Is that allowed? Am I okay to not know that? And it was just failure. I mean, that's basically what it comes down to. It was just like, you're not immediately breastfeeding perfectly. You're not immediately maternal. You're not, your body isn't behaving how it should.

1:04:28You know, all these things. He's whisked off because maybe something went wrong because we had a C-section. Just all of these things. And it was just unrelenting. And it got worse and worse and worse until I got home. And then it really got bad. And I wonder if in your brain you're kind of going, I'm going to get home and it's going to be okay. Yeah. The last thing you're expecting is for it to ramp up. I got home and I was like, and my husband had got a balloon and he got a balloon and he hadn't got like a baby boy balloon. He wanted a welcome home balloon, but he could only find a new home balloon.

1:05:07Well, I guess it was the baby's new home. This was his reasoning. So it was very sweet. And he and also but, you know, on the flip side of that, he'd been at home for four days by himself in a lockdown, not knowing. not being able to see his wife after literally watching her, like, bleeding out on an operating table, bonding with his son over FaceTime. Who also has been in a special care unit. Yes, and knowing, you know, knowing that I'm not doing great in there and that I need him and he can't come to me. And so when we get home, he's kind of like, they're home. And I was like, I'm home. oh no oh no and then just it's okay it's baby blues it's baby blues god i hope it's baby blues please be hormones please please please and you know we're we're suddenly a month in and it's not baby blues it's not anything i'd ever heard of before and i was scared i was really scared did you start talking to people just him I didn't see anybody so health visitor and stuff like that did you have anything like that I had a health visitor did they not come out because of COVID they did they did come out but it was all about the baby yeah it was all about the baby it was all about um weighing the baby measuring the baby making sure the baby well which is all obviously all absolutely vital and good stuff um but me feeling again like I was failing in that you know oh you you look tired so yeah well I haven't slept in like two days um oh we really don't advocate you use those with a baby or this or this or why he had a little cotton hat on anyway you shouldn't have a hat on indoors and and all this and just every just every which way you're not doing it right, you're not doing it right So when you hear all that and they suddenly ask and how are you?

1:07:14You're not ever going to want to go Fine, thank you I'm a bit I'm a bit blabbery but you know it's okay and I remember the midwife going oh I know, you know you drop a tea towel you think it's the end of the world and I was like no I genuinely think it's the end of the world all the time every second of every day and I'm not sleeping and my hormones have plummeted all that lovely goldeney wonder woman hormones from the day before he was born don't remember that and I'm just a husk and I'm not getting any of this right and I'm suddenly just seeing danger everywhere everywhere my my home sort of turned into a sort of haunted castle of just everything's dangerous to a baby here everything is okay then mitigate it to try and stop it or picture it first and then it won't happen and and and then without realizing what it was what i was doing that i was making it worse i started doing compulsions um and my husband was watching on what is happening really where's my wife you know where's like where's Kim gone did you vocalize those things to him in terms of like seeing all of those threats and that danger and yes the way that you were the spiraling yeah I was I mean I was really incredibly lucky and I know that not all women experiencing this have that level of trust with their partner but like I said we've been together a long time he knew me really well and because of that previous weird OCD episode that I'd had we had a little bit of a reference and so um I was immediately honest with him which I know is not the norm a lot of women keep it completely to themselves but I felt very comfortable in trusting him um and and saying I can't stop seeing terrible terrible things over and over and over and over and over and over and over and I can't make a stop it won't stop it won't stop it won't stop and just that was it was every danger and threat something that was going to happen to your son yes he was gonna die he was gonna die he was gonna be hurt and it was going it was going to be my fault that was the big thing it was everything was going to be as a result of something that I had I hadn't done.

1:09:52I hadn't used the right blanket. He didn't have enough layers. He had too many layers. The milk was too hot. The bath water was too deep. I'd blinked for too long when he was in the bath. Endless, endless, endless, endless. Then starting to maybe go out a little bit to a supermarket. People are going to try and take him. Like, aren't they like paedophile rings? That's the thing, isn't it? What if they take him? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. What if they take him and I spend the rest of my life trying to find him? You know, just everything, everything, everything. And so after, I'd say, about two solid, two and a half solid months of that, it then began to switch to, I'd put all these coping mechanisms, all these defensive things in place to make sure that when I was changing him, he couldn't roll off the table and fall onto the kitchen floor.

1:10:46the dog couldn't sniff around him and bite him out of nowhere um or just everything just stare when he's in the bath keep your eyes open the entire time don't even blink you know he was having the quickest baths in the it's just like in scrub out and then it was like and then and then reminding myself that he's definite and tipping away the water in the bath immediately right so there was no water around like I've washed him so he's clean I know he needs to be clean that's important and I need the water for that but I need the water to be gone because he can drown yeah he can drown and so and again us both thinking you know I've always been a bit of an overthinker I've always done this a little bit um I'm a new mum it's okay I'm just this is new and my husband was a bit anxious with all that stuff but he was once he'd done a bath a couple of times he was okay yeah I know what to do now I've done a bottle a few times I know what to do now I've done a changing his nappy um terrified that I would accidentally touch anything by accident like I would and I just okay okay so just concentrate on what you're doing um because at that point you're constantly you're telling yourself that you could maybe do something so that's when it started to flip around and that's when I started to become I mean if I wasn't at that point and I started to become really really unwell because there are the dangers out there are not the thing you need to worry about the thing you need to worry about is you do you really know yourself do you know every facet of your mind do you know the darkest corners of your brain you know do you can you say with 100 % hand on heart certainty that you will never in any way be a danger to your baby and the answer to that for every single woman in the world is no because you can't control everything you can't control everything you've no idea what's going to happen in the future you've no and I needed that certainty I was begging for that certainty and I asked my husband a thousand times a day I'll never hurt the baby will I I'll never hurt the baby I'd never do anything to the baby I would and and him again not knowing I had OCD and not knowing that it wasn't helpful to me of course you won't I've got you love the baby you know I've known you I've known you since you you know you were 19 yeah um no I can't think of anyone better with a baby than you you know I just know um and and that's never enough you're feeding a beast you're never going to be able to the reassurance is never enough yeah but what if okay you say I'm okay to bath the baby because that'll be fine yeah okay but what if when I'm putting his onesie on I touch him somehow what if when I put the onesie on and then I walk downstairs I drop him over the banister what if I make it downstairs and then I feed him but when I was sleepwalking I've put something in his milk or what just every just it never ended yeah it never finished it was never completed It was endless.

1:13:55That must have been absolutely exhausting. Yes. To never switch off, to see every single thing as a threat, as a danger, including, like, to have constant self-doubt. Yes. And just, and then starting to doubt my memory. Like, before I had a baby, was I a secret serial killer and I felt I'd forgotten or I've just blanked it out because I don't want to think about it or just really wild things that just seemed so logical to me. And every micro decision I made meant something. So I'm lying in bed, my husband's asleep on one side, the baby's in the next to me crib on the other, and I'm staring at him.

1:14:42And what if I just close my eyes and drop off for an hour and then I wake up and I was seeing it so graphically that I would just wake up and he'd be blue and he'd be gone. Okay, don't sleep then. Just keep your eyes open. Don't sleep. Don't sleep. Keep seeing terrible things. Just let them play. They're playing over and over and over and over until you're deliriously tired. You don't know. You can't operate with that little sleep. I mean, having a newborn anyway is a... Your first one is an insane life shift. you know this is a whole new and in the same way that my husband was finding it but more in a I would say just more in a normal way was like oh my god I'm so tired I can't I don't think I could say the alphabet whereas like I don't think I could say the alphabet but I'm actually worried that I might throw the baby at the wall I don't think I will I don't want to I really don't want that to happen okay I'll hold my hands I'll stay with my hands I'll just sit here It's like you're in your own prison Yeah Yeah And But it's a prison you've made It's the It's the Because you just I know from the outside I know from my husband He was like I just went Stop I was like Sorry He's like please stop, please stop, you know, you don't need to do this, you're not a danger in any way, stop it, and I'd be like, no, I need to check, I need to check, I need to check, what's my heart rate doing, what's my, where are my hands, where am I, just, and from the outside, just stop, you're doing it yourself, just stop, I can't, I can't, because if I stop, he might die, if I stop doing this, he might die,

1:16:42and I know that he hasn't died all the other times but what if this time he does? If you suddenly relax. I can't, I just can't. I need to keep an eye on him all the time and I need to keep an eye on myself all the time. You know what, I'm so tired. I haven't slept for the better part of like four or five days and you know, these stretches. um what if you what if you like fall asleep and roll over onto his next to me carton not you know and and smother him or you do something whilst you're asleep you don't remember when you wake up or just i it was just but on top of that the exhaustion and the yeah the what is happening to me what is this I've never heard anybody talk about this when they've had a baby I was thinking like okay if baby blues don't lift oh I've got postnatal depression okay okay it wasn't it wasn't I wasn't hitting any of those markers I was trying to fit in to that box so that they would tell me I had postnatal depression so that I would know it was a condition and I'd know that eventually I would get better.

1:17:55This wasn't that. This was, you're broken. You, you've, you've given birth and something has gone terribly wrong and you're irrevocably broken. And you're going to spend the rest of your life trying not to be a danger to your baby. So any of the joy or the love or the any, like, motives were a big thing for me. Like, I would look at him and I would love him and why do you love him? I guess he's my son, but what kind of love? Just all that. And I really want to hold him. Why do you want to hold him? Why? What are you going to do when you're holding him? Do you want to? No, I don't know. I just want to coach him.

1:18:38I just want to cuddle him up. Why? It's just, there's like a dialogue. It's like a devil on your shoulder almost just questioning everything you think. and it's exhausting and I'm being honest with mental health people and I'm saying and we do a medication change and I'm four or five months in and it's every second of every day and I can't live like this. I can't live like this. The idea that he could be hurt because I exist in the world is too much. Yeah. So maybe it would be better if I wasn't here.

1:19:29Okay. Okay. As soon as that... That's the plan, Stan. As soon as that thought came in, were you just like, well, that must have been lighter because that's obviously the solution. It was... I know it sounds awful, but it's true. It was lovely. It was like, oh, an end date. this is going to be over. He's going to be safe because my husband will love him and he's got family and friends that love him. And he'll be great, definitely, certainly safe. And my brain will stop. This is ideal. This is good stuff. This is great. Okay, cool, lots to organise. And then suddenly I'm back into this. I've got a purpose.

1:20:16and I came home from a walk where I'd had that thought and I was different and like different in a good way that was a bad way like I came back going my husband was like good walk and I was like yeah great okay what are we going to have for dinner and him going oh of me leaving an hour before going I'm just going to take the dog for a walk not knowing what day it is and then coming back with full of purpose it was he was this is not good this is really not good you had decided how you'd looked at wills and insurance yep you'd looked at like thought about the letters that you were going to write yeah yeah did it all I did it um I just thought everything I just I thought again maybe that everything was a lot of the stars were aligning finally something felt right like it was um I would do it on a Sunday so they could start the week off fresh and on Sunday it was the last day of the month so they could start a month off fresh and on Sunday it was going to snow that would be nice that's pretty that's a lovely that's a nice end isn't it I love snow I love it and in fact that was one of the one of the times my later my husband would say I knew something was really wrong when you know again been together 20 years he said when it started I came in and I said it's snowing outside and you didn't immediately run out to see the snow like if I if I see on the news it's going to snow I'm at the window all day and he said and it was snowing heavily like how you love and you didn't even look you didn't care I was like I didn't care and he was like oh no oh no but again because he has that knowledge of me because he knew me but anyone else wouldn't have noticed that no you know so coming back from that walk and him clocking that something was definitely off because actually now there's a spring in your step yeah real spring in my step what happened after that um we went on a walk and lots of walks He turned you right around and went, let's redo this.

1:22:34I mean, just over the next couple of days, him keeping an eye on me, me being very busy. I was a busy little bee. I was getting documents ready and, you know, because he wouldn't know where the utility bills are going or whatever. Making sure that all the baby clothes were in piles of growing up. so he'd be he's he's sorted till at least two he's good cool and that's very clearly labeled like even my husband can't mess that up so that's great um getting nappies that were far too big for him because he'll need those later and I won't be here then um so just all of this and him going oh my goodness and then my medication evening out and me going whoa oh my god whoa that it was real it was a real like shift and I kind of came back into the real world and that was close that was really close that's not you you don't want to do that and I was like no I don't want to do that but I do want this to end and if that's my only option and I I went and I told I told him and he was like yeah you scared you scared the hell out of me and so then it was with earnest that we were like uh we need help yeah we need help please help us and how did looking for help go because obviously like you said if people are looking for postnatal depression and you're not there, but what else is there?

1:24:15Or do people kind of know straight away, actually, let's talk about postnatal OCD. I'd never heard that term. I didn't know I had OCD in general. I'd never heard of postnatal OCD. I didn't know what that meant. I found it late at night on an anonymous article, and I think it says everything that it was anonymous because it's such a scary thing to say. and then I found that article and I ran downstairs and I said it's this it's this it's this and then we went to the nurse the next day and I said it's this read this I can't say it but you read it and it's that and they were like okay okay and then the term intrusive thoughts came up and I was like oh my god it's a thing that's got a name this thing I've been doing my whole life that I that I've been trying to mask and and solve and all these things oh my god it's just it's got a name but for a really long time and even around then when I started you know I was trying to get help because I did want to get better but I was like this isn't this isn't an illness this isn't a postnatal thing this is you you're you're broken and you're not good enough and you know you can't tell I mean you can tell you you know I trust him with my life but people will never understand this if you tell people these symptoms they will never understand it and they will take the baby away from you and then that was a whole other but if he's away from me how can I keep him safe but if he's with me how can I keep him safe and so it was just but I was remarkably looking back I was remarkably honest from the get-go with mental health professionals about the nature of the symptoms, even though saying that to somebody is the scariest thing I've ever done.

1:26:04And then not seeing that person ever again. And then meeting a new person. You met different people every single time. Every single time. And I think, you know, now we're moving up to, it's going on, it's nearly going to be his first birthday. And it's a new appointment with a new person who goes, okay, how can I help? And I've just thought again, I have to start from the beginning and tell you in my mind I have to tell you what a terrible person I am again so that you can help me get better you know and I'll just get him to his first birthday I'll get to his first birthday I'll watch him you know the cake with the candle and you know I'll have that and then it became a very sort of I don't want to but But I'm not going to survive this.

1:26:57I'm just not going to. Like, there wasn't even a sadness to it. It was just kind of like, that's just the facts. That's just how it is. Just, you know, make your peace with it. And I was like, okay, I will. I'll keep going for as long as I can. I'll keep getting them ready for when I'm not here. I'll keep every single day doing the mum stuff and the caregiving stuff. and I'll keep doing that, doing it and doing it every day until I absolutely cannot anymore. But every day it was just in the back of my mind. It's that interesting thing, isn't it? Because I think so often we say, we tell people to go and get that help, go speak to someone, say what it is.

1:27:41But actually that doesn't mean that that thing goes away. It's still very much there. It's just, you know, and having that sort of support team around you, having that name for what it is that understanding of what it is yeah doesn't necessarily mean that now you know what it is it's still not going to have a hold over you yeah again and that's another that's another heartbreak all over again because now i've got a name for it for it i'm still being looked at slightly oddly by perinatal mental health people um even though now years later down the line and i know so much about it that it's intrusive thoughts are incredibly common over 95 % of parents will have them because obviously you will because you've got a new precious little responsibility so okay weird things are going to pop in and for my husband they did and they would pop back out again and he'd go oh weird and I would go what does that mean about me spend the next hour thinking of nothing else but that oh the hour's up you haven't solved it spend the next hour doing it oh it's been two hours okay just one more time and you might be able to solve it and in the meantime changing the baby, feeding the baby, holding the baby, putting the baby to sleep and just this cycle, you know.

1:28:59It was, yeah, it was hard. It was really hard and not being acknowledged by people in authority, clinical people. because they didn't know enough about it yeah they didn't know enough about it and it terrified me because it was just a such confirmation bias you don't have a postnatal mental illness you're just a bad person and you've gone in to see a medical practitioner you're sitting in front of a clinician and they're looking at you like you've got two heads it's not medical and then you're it's it's you're the my step the bottom of my stomach just dropped out it's not medical it's not medical and if it's not medical we can't treat it and if we can't treat it we can't cure it so this is forever okay let's learn to live with that then and so kind of 18 months into two years in, it was, this is as good as it's going to get.

1:30:15That is such a long time. Such a long time. Especially when it's every second of every day. But, you know, I got to a place where I could live in parallel timelines. I could be in the real world, being his mum, having a conversation. Yes, one sugar, please. Yes, that's great. Don't forget nappies. What do you want for dinner? Do you think that's because you spent a lifetime masking anyway? It must have been. Do you know what I mean? It must have been. You've always had that sort of parallel thing of kind of going, like switching off the side of your autism brain and kind of going, you know, I won't show you that side.

1:30:57So you've always had that bit where you're hiding on the side. Yeah, when you're in a scene or you're doing something, I'm not Kim for a bit. Yeah. I'm thinking as somebody else. I'm doing something else. So, yes, it was I'll play Kim. this is the scene I'm in and I'll play Kim and I'll play um being a mum because you're not a real mum you're not a good mum so just play at being a mum but in the background the real you is just endlessly seeing a horror film yeah all the time but you know we can live with that we we get up every day and we do we go out and we come back and get into bed at the end of the day and yeah sure I hope I don't wake up in the morning but that's okay this is better than it was before maybe so that's okay you know and then realizing can't live like that either you know was there a moment when you first started to feel a shift um what really shifted because for me it was all it was shrouded in in shame I was so ashamed of myself I was to the point of absolute self-loathing I was just shamed of myself for ever having thought anything like this and that that must mean something about me and the shame of that and if anyone finds out and people you know people love you yes but they don't know the truth people will always be yes but they don't know the truth um and so it thrives in the dark by you keeping it a secret and so actually being open online which was this which was easier than doing it in person because you've got that separation but also like but also in my mind I'm not going to be around for long do you know what I'm talking you know so like I may as well do a bit of good while I'm here and then maybe the next person that will be a bit easier for them because this I'm not going to be around to suffer the consequences so it's fine but but dipping my toe into um uh saying I'm not okay and I'm struggling and this isn't what I thought it was going to be um was really I didn't know it but it let it lets cracks of light in ever so just a kind of you know a little sliver of light but it's enough and talking to people and having other people go me too that's got to be such a like from going from medical professionals who are looking at you like an alien to other people that go I have that yeah that was amazing to me I would literally be I would come down stairs if I'd been, you know, looking at something on Instagram and just be in, like, happy tears, weirdly, showing my husband, look at this lady just wrote to me from, you know, from somewhere in the world, literally from all over the world.

1:34:07I had so many different kinds of messages, people who were writing it in the middle of it with me, people who, women who were in their 50s and 60s, going, oh, my God, I had this when my son was born, when my daughter was born they're in their 30s now and I've never forgiven myself I never told anyone I didn't even tell my head this has a name this isn't relatively common this is there are other women like me I don't have to be ashamed it's not you it's not your fault you haven't done anything wrong like you're carrying baggage you know you know popping out popping out to the park with the baby yeah but I'm also like pulling like 10 suitcases of shame with me so that's why going to the park feels like a big deal to the outside it's just a mum pop into the park just get some wet wipes bit of milk pop them on the pram and go to the park yeah but I also need to drag it's really heavy and Wales is really hilly that's a lot of baggage to go up it's a lot of baggage and then you do go to you know and then I am going out to the and obviously I am I do live on a hill it's all very hilly and what if what if I forget how my hands work and I let go of the pram and he swerves into the traffic how to how can I make sure that I remember how to control my hands is a question I never thought I'd ask myself um well we've talked a lot about controlling the idea of control and there's no denying that the OCD had so much control over you and I wonder if doing everything that you do now writing the book you know the blog the Instagram everything that you do whether that's actually you reclaiming control entirely you know last night I went to sleep and I over the past year I've had a lot of sleepless nights because I knew if I was going to write this book it was going to be all or nothing it was going to be honest or nothing so it wasn't a case of it wasn't a case of deciding how honest I was going to be it was a case of coping with the fallout of how honest I was going to be it's one of those things if you're going to do it do it do it like it wouldn't have helped me at the time for someone to go oh I've had a baby and I've just having bad thoughts and you're like and because I would immediately go on yeah but not like mine not like mine um and so I you know I I went to bed last night knowing you know I was going to wake up and that my book would be out there in the world it wouldn't be mine anymore it would just be on a shelf for anyone to read my story and I had to be I had to be okay with people reading reading the book and thinking differently of me and And it's maybe the final or the biggest exposure therapy that I've done.

1:37:07Because for me, it was no one can ever know about this darkness. And now I'm telling everybody about it. Yeah. So it's almost like looking at OCD and going, so now what have you got? Yeah. it's standing up to the bully and it's you said if I told everybody that the world would fall apart but everything's just ticking along fine and I'm okay actually so maybe all the other stuff you told me was hang on a second you know it starts to fall and that's definitely and I over the next week month, few months, whatever, I'll navigate that. But I know that I'm different now. I know that I wouldn't have been able to do this a couple of years ago.

1:38:02I wouldn't have been able to do it. And now I'm doing it and I'm living in the maybe and the uncertainty and I can't control it. But that's okay. That's okay. And it's kind of nice. But it's still scary. It's scary, you know, just take out any of that stuff it's scary to write your very personal experience down and have other people read it and judge it and whatever but I know I know that if I'd have read something like that book when I was really unwell it it would have saved my life I think I really do think it and that's all I kept thinking when I was writing it yeah and sometimes it doesn't matter how uncomfortable that feeling of release might make you feel knowing that having that as the core why yeah yeah and again I go back to um the the messages that I've been getting on Instagram and it's every time I have a wobble I get a private message with somebody saying oh my god I didn't know I I didn't know I've been so alone in this and now I've gone to the GP and I've told my midwife or I've, you know, I've told my partner, whatever the thing is, and it's like, okay, well, me being uncomfortable is a small price to pay.

1:39:28But living with OCD and learning to overcome it is learning to live with being uncomfortable. That's the whole point of the therapy. Because OCD craves certainty and I want to feel comfortable and better and reassured, and you'll chase that forever. so actually okay I'll sit in the anxiety oh I mean it doesn't feel nice but it's not killing me yeah you know so it's it's a it's a it's the kind of big final hurdle I think if you could write a letter on motherhood who would it be two and what would you say um oh god i don't know i don't know i is it selfish to say yourself not at all you can absolutely say yourself absolutely um i think maybe a a pregnant me saying hi this is future kim don't be alarmed but um i think there's some things you should know about yourself and you're autistic and you process things differently and that doesn't mean that you're worse or that you're wrong or that you're broken it's just different and also you have adhd and that's why you can't finish any tasks and why you get distracted so easily and why your brain feels like there's 10 radios on at the same time and again that's okay your brain is just a bit different and I really really want to tell you that there's this thing called intrusive thoughts and you're going to get them and they don't mean anything about you that's really important for you to know um and give yourself a break yeah lots of love future Kim so it's the thing that So you can't change anything, but maybe having that little bit of knowledge.

1:41:29Yeah. I mean, that's another blocker in your recovery. Wishing you could go back. I just want to go back. I want to be who I was before. I want this to stop. I just want to go back to who I was before. And once you let that idea go, and I don't even think that's specific to OCD or a perinatal mental illness. I think that should become an unmoment. Yeah. I think you could have the best birth in the world and the nicest postpartum period in the world where you're in love with your baby and it's wonderful and it's lovely. But there will be elements of, remember before when I didn't have to get up eight times a night?

1:42:07Remember before when I could just read a book? Do you remember before when I could just call my friends and go for some drinks and I didn't have anyone to be responsible to? That's totally normal and that's okay. and you won't be that again but it doesn't it doesn't mean that the new you isn't going to be great yeah and once I got once I reframed my thinking to that that was a massive game changer that was really that was really a big shift can I ask you what does the term happy mum mean to you a quiet mind just enjoying just my son just watching my son or him being in the room with me and he's humming to himself or he's playing with something or he's just making me laugh and I'm not it's so hard won that nothing is going on in my brain it's just lovely and we're just in the garden or in you know in the kitchen and he wants to help me cook and

1:43:20oh there are no flares going off this is nice this is so quiet this is really nice and so I don't take any of that for for granted like sitting on the sofa watching tv with my son is one of the best things in the world because I remember a time when I would be doing that not watching the TV not even realising the TV was on so just quiet peaceful togetherness We am the podcast with you completing three sentences. The first one is being a mum means

1:44:02It's okay to put yourself first sometimes I think becoming a mum you go to the bottom of the pile everything about you goes to the bottom of the pile you having a shower is the least important thing to be done that day you feeling like crap is the least of anyone's worries you've got to protect the baby you've got to feed the baby you've got to change the baby all these things so it's okay to put your own oxygen mask on first since having a child I? know who I really am and I'm happy when I'm with my son Kimberley thank you so much like I adore you so much I genuinely do I just think you are exceptional I really really do and I think for sharing in the way that you have we both know the stats we know them you talking is going to help save lives so thank you so much I hope so.

1:45:08I really, really, really hope so. And I said, actually, listening to the voice notes today, I said, I just wish I could give you a hug. So let's end this podcast so I can give you a hug. She's obsessed with me. Talk about obsession. Move over, Jess. Jess is seething.

1:45:39Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner. Obsessed. I'm spending it right now on the lip gloss that's been sitting in my cart. What do you mean spending it right now? You can instantly spend your balance with the Venmo debit card or when you pay with Venmo at checkout. Stop. Say more. More exactly. The more you do with Venmo, the more you get. Like earning up to 5 % cash back with Venmo Stash. Get the Venmo debit card or checkout online. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. Max$100 per month. See terms at venmo.me slash stashterms. Venmo checkout, not available at all merchants. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A.

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