Joanna Page on placenta praevia, babies on set, and tandem breastfeeding

0:28Oh God, I've pressed something now. is an author. Her autobiography is called Lush. She is a wildlife rescue volunteer. She has four guinea pigs, which I'm sure she's going to tell us all about. She has two dogs. She is a phenomenal actress. You might know her from Gavin and Stacey, from Nativity 2, my personal favourite, or Love Actually. She has four children. It's Joanna Page. Hello! I'm so happy that you're here! Thank you so much for having me. Also, all those things. So many people will know you from Gavin and Stacey and your amazing work as an actress. But when I was doing my research, when it came up as wildlife rescue volunteer, I was like, oh, wow.

1:14Oh, my God. Yes, while I was filming, it was all last year because everything just all merges into one, doesn't it, when you've got kids and you're working. And it was last year I was training to become a wildlife rescue volunteer. And I did. I went out and I rescued foxes. and uplink in them badgers, and I would like to get more animals. And there's this whole running thing going with me and James that he just keeps saying, we've got so much going on as it is because we've got four guinea pigs, which he was just like, I don't know why we got the four guinea pigs. Why didn't we get two or why did we just get none?

1:47And I was like, because we've got each child now has their own guinea pig, and I think it's really good for them to get responsibility and know how to look after, you know, a smaller animal. How is that responsibility going? Well, it's gone out the window. Okay. Because they are 3, 8, 10 and 12. They did a whole mood board about what it takes to look after a guinea pig, what you feed them, how often you feed them, what we do, how you clean them out. Two of them now are still doing it, but only when prompted. No, not only when prompted. Kit is really, really good. And Eva is pretty good as well.

2:21The other two couldn't give a shit. Not in the least bit of all. So me and James are doing all the cleaning up. We're doing absolutely everything. But I do love the boys. They are just adorable. We've got Messi, Scruffa, Charlotte, who is a boy, but Charlotte is Beau's favourite name. Oh, cute. And, God, what's the name? Oh, an avocado. So, yes, we've got four guinea pigs, two dogs and four children. The other thing that you have been working on and your hours that you've been working on this, literally, it reminds me of me working when the kids were younger. Yeah. But you've been writing a book.

2:54It's called Lush, and I love the fact that it's called Lush. I know. I just thought, you know what, I'm going to embrace the word because it's sort of what people know me as saying as playing Stacey. But then also, I think it sort of kind of represents what I'm like anyway. It was either that or breathe through your anus. Why? Because, right, I went to RADA to train, you know, to become an actress. And in one of my classes, we had to squat and squat and walk around the room. And the teacher was going, breathe through your anus, breathe through your anus. And I was in fits of giggles whilst trying to breathe in through my anus, which is quite difficult to try and suck air through your bum hole.

3:37But they told me I wasn't allowed to call it breathe through your anus. So it's called lush. We didn't get that at Rose Bruford. Rose Bruford didn't say to us breathe through your anus. Maybe they should have done. Oh, God, no, no. Did you have much more of a nice sort of, oh, yeah, let's just enjoy what we enjoy. Just breathe, really. No, we were sort of quite brutalised and it was just, oh God, it was hard going. Really? So it's been really weird writing this book. I mean, for starters, right, trying to write the book with the kids is kind of impossible. And so I think as well, I was putting off doing it for a long time because life just sort of keeps going by really fast.

4:13And I don't like to sit down really and analyse stuff. Yeah. Because it kind of makes me a bit maudlin. because I can't look at photos, really, of the children. Yeah, I can't look at photos or videos or think about them when they were young too much because it just makes me start crying because I just think, oh, my God, I think about those times and it's just going so fast and they're growing up, which is just gorgeous. And I love seeing them become really independent and strong and, you know, forging their own ideas and their identities and what they, you know, want to do. But I just, I can't look at stuff.

4:44So having to go back and look at it and embrace things was just really strange. And then having to do that with four of them climbing on me, it just became clear quite early on that it was impossible to do. And also, with something like an autobiography, where you are when you're writing it, where your mindset is, it really does dictate what your tone is when you were writing about sections. Yes, it completely does. So first of all, we've got a voiceover booth sort of thing, because James does voiceovers. We've got one of those in the garage. So I'd settle the kids. That's not a soundproof booth.

5:15It is, it is. cupboard for you to just sit in and ignore the fact that you have four children yes but yeah I would go in there and um he'd settle the kids and I'd switch my phone off because him settling the kids is like are you nearly finished right now and it's like I am not I'm in the middle of trying to write please just leave me alone yeah and so I'd go in and then I'd try and write and stuff and I'd do that until about five in the morning I'd sneak back in get into bed sleep for about two hours, get up and then, you know, do the kids and the school and everything. Well, what was it like then when you finally handed it over?

5:48Well, when I finally handed it over, right, I sent everything all off, right? And I just sort of collapsed into all of their arms. And then I started crying and it was about nine o 'clock at night and I was just crying and I was crying anyway, because I said, oh my God, it's just, this is like my life and, you know, reading stuff and all of my births and going to drama school and my, you know, life in Swansea. And I just sat there and I was really, really emotional and I cried. And then Eva went, Mummy, will you please come upstairs? I need to pack because I'm going away, you know, for the lodge trip with school.

6:18And I said, OK, darling, can Mummy just have five minutes? And she went, no, I want to do it now. And I went, OK, you're right. And I went upstairs and I packed her suitcase and no one gave a shit about me and my feelings.

6:33I mean, this is motherhood. It is. It's really grounding, really grounding. So grounding, so grounding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, let's talk about your childhood, because you were up in Swansea. What was life like? Oh, my God, it was really lovely. I lived in Treborth. I was born and lived in Treborth, which was sort of like Swansea town-ish. And we had this gorgeous little semi-detached house. It was really, it was absolutely tiny, and it was just me, mum and dad. Yeah. And I just loved it, though. I mean, it was like my first home. I lived there until I was 14. And I just had the most loveliest time.

7:06I mean, I was so close. I still am to my parents. I'm an only child. and I was quite happy with that. Do you think being an only child it kind of helps you feed your imagination a little bit? Oh, completely. Always in my own world. Always in my own world. And now I love being in my own world as well. It's quite strange having so many kids and it being noisy and, you know, like this all the time because I'm used to just enjoying, you know, my own, you know, just being by myself. And so those times that I now get to be by myself, I just, I really, really love it. It's so true actually, isn't it?

7:37I think when there's that, and I love chaos, But there is that thing where, actually, sometimes I find it that I even have to just press the extractor fan off when I'm cooking. Just because it's one other layer. Or Tom will come down and put the radio on and I'm just like, no, I just... Oh, my God, because I used to think that about my mum, right? Because mum will come into the kitchen sometimes and she'll say to my dad, turn the radio off, turn all the candles off. She wants everything off. And I've found that I've started becoming like that because I just kind of just want some silence sometimes.

8:04And I think having four kids, you know how siblings bicker and they fight and because that's the whole point of them sort of learning how to be when they grow up, that took me a while to adjust because I'd say to James, oh, my God, it's just awful and they're fighting and it really upsets me. And they were like, oh, Mum, it's fine. You know, we're all right with each other now. And it's them just, you know, just being what siblings are like. But I'm not used to any of that because I'm used to just, you know, just being by myself and just being nice and quiet. Did you always know that you wanted to be an actress?

8:32Yes, it was either doing something really medical or being an actress because there was lots of medical... My nan was a matron, and then my aunties, you know, worked for the NHS and worked in hospitals. And so there was this side of me that wanted to be... I wanted to be a doctor, a dentist, a surgeon. I wanted to be a pathologist for a while. Yeah. Because I was good academically, and they were pushing for me, you know, to go and do a degree, and I did all my A-levels. And now, looking back, I started doing four A-levels, and I quite soon dropped psychology when I realised that there were boys because I went to an all-girls school.

9:05Right. So I got to, you know, college and just went, oh, my God, this is what boys are like, right? Bump, psychology's got to go. But now as an adult, I wish I carried on doing that because I think I'd quite like to train and do, you know, something with that now. But, yeah, but acting just overtook everything. Well, you went to Rada and you didn't have the happiest of times. God, no, it was bloody awful. Really? It was horrific. It was horrific. It was awful. It's so funny, isn't it? Because I think there's a thing with training. If it breaks you, then it's successful. Yeah. I don't think it has to.

9:34It's just weird, isn't it? Especially now, having had the career that you have, realising that you have had the career that you have had because you are you. Yes. You don't need to be an RP version. No. You're a wallflower. You need to be you. It's so funny because the thing that makes you unique and the thing that kind of got you into drama school in the first place, I mean, where I was, they just completely wanted to strip you of that. So by the time you get to, like, you know, year two, everybody's done Alexander Technique and everybody's talking in RP. This is where you literally get stretched like a student.

10:04Everybody's just like this all the time. And if you aren't like that and you don't look like that, then it means there's something wrong with you and that you're shit and you can't act. And I just thought, oh, God, it was just so restrictive. And I was very, very young. I'd just turned 18. I was so close to my parents. And I loved being at home and I just loved being with them. And, you know, it's like a double thing because it was really difficult going and it was so brutal and so awful. It did completely and utterly destroy me. and it has affected the way that I am now. Really? Oh, God, completely.

10:38I think I'm shit all the time. I think I'm shit at acting all the time. There are certain, deep down, I know, well, see, look, it's weird, right? Because deep down, I know that it's what I love doing. Yeah. And I think I'm good at it. And I see things every now and then. And I go, oh, my God, no, I think I got that there. But deep down, they just really, if somebody tells you you're shit every single day for two and a half years and they don't know what to do with you, they don't know why you got into the drama school and you're shit because you can't act, It does end up having an effect on you.

11:07Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I don't go to screenings. I don't really like watching myself because I just can't because I just think, oh, my God, it's just awful. It's just awful. That's so sad. But then on the other hand, I then think, well, it's quite good that I went at such a young age and I must have absorbed stuff and it made me, you know, strong and who I am today as well. Well, it didn't make me who I am today. Fuck that. I'm not giving them that. It just made me strong. But the fact that you're strong and that you can't have fought against it. Yes, yes. But yeah, it was brutal. And I thought, I can't understand why we can't just go.

11:36We love acting. There's loads of different techniques. And to be perfectly honest, you can't teach anybody how to act. No. You can either do it or you can't. And we should just enjoy doing it and just try loads of different things and just have fun. And why do we all have to go all your shit? It's really sad, isn't it, that we turn something that's creative into a right or wrong? Yes. It's so weird, isn't it? Yeah. And something that's so creative and so free and just so expressing yourself and discovering different ways. I mean, you know, because you actually are just being a human being, analysing what humans are like.

12:06And how can you say that somebody is right or wrong? Or, you know, if you were doing Larbon, that somebody has to move this way or that way and has to move this speed. And I just couldn't stand. I'm much more a person who just feels. And they wanted me to write everything down. So, you know, what is the tempo of your character? And what are you playing on this line? Is it to smooth or to jab or to whatever? It's like, I don't know. I'll just listen to what the other actor is saying and I'll just react off them, you know? Hated it, hated it. Well, you nearly left acting a few times. Yes, yes. Oh, my God, before getting Gavin and Stacey, that's the closest I've ever been to just go and, boof, that's it, I'm done.

12:45Because, yeah, I auditioned for Dirty Dancing, the musical. And, you know, so I've come out of RADA, and I'm used to, you know, you get your script and it's all, I'm not musical theatre at all. And then my agent phoned and said, you know, Dirty Dancing, the musical has come in, will you audition for the part of the sister? Yeah. And I thought, God, that's just, it's not me. I know what you're supposed to act, and so I shouldn't be being me or whatever. I just thought, oh, God, that's just not the part that I would go for. Yeah, it's not my casting. Yeah, but I would always get sent up, you know, for like the ingenue or the sexy one or the whatever.

13:14I get that sometimes. I'm just like, that's not. Yeah, I'd hate to be like, why can't I just go for the normal girl or the one that doesn't always have to be the confident, sexy one? Because it's just, it's not enjoyable. I just hate doing it. And so I went. I always bury my head in the sand whenever I got to go for something. I was just thinking, fuck it, I'll deal with it when I walk in through the door. So I hadn't really worked on my song at all, and I just got on with it. I went to Pineapple Studios, and I was just like, oh, my God, this is a complete other world. It's really exciting because everybody's walking around in leg warmers.

13:43Oh, my God, this is so good. And then I walked in, just sang the song there and then, and sort of ran out of breath and was just rubbish, made it up as I went along. But as I was leaving, they said, we think you'd be perfect for the part of baby. We think you'd be great, you know, you are like, you are baby. We think you'd be great. So I went back and back and back so many times and eventually got down to the last three. And, oh, my God, that whole sort of musical theatre world of, you know, the last audition that you go to. I went in and it was three girls, the girl who'd originated the part.

14:14I think it was in New Zealand or Australia. It was me and then the actress who ended up getting the part. And then there were three actors. So me and John Partridge together, right? He's massive and he's really built. And he's, I mean, he's wonderful. I mean, he's dancing. He's fantastic. They paired the pair of us together to do the final routine that they do. I was so small. He was so big. We just didn't gel at all. But we got through all of that, got through all the other bits. And then I had to go in and read with the fellow who was playing Johnny. Right. And who'd done it in, I think it was in New Zealand.

14:49And he was really, really lovely. And he was gorgeous. And I had to go in and read the scene where, you know, baby goes up to the cabin. Oh, yeah. And then they have sex for the first time. It's like, why do they always have to do those scenes? It's so difficult. Because you know that when you're in a rehearsal room, that's handled in a very different way. Well, yes. It's like you've got the build-up to it, so it's not just, come on, be sexy. I know. But what was good was that Baby did have to be innocent, and she did, but still, I was like, oh, my God, I'm really nervous. So I went in to read with him, and they put this mattress on the floor, and they said, right, just keep on going now, Joanna, until we shout stop.

15:24So I was like, OK, OK. So me and him, oh, and he had his top off as well, because I remember thinking he had such a dark, he was gorgeous. So I was in pieces anyway, because I'm just not very good at rising above stuff and just getting off. No, no, no, no. And so I started doing the scene, and we acted all the way through, and she's saying, you know, the way that I feel when I'm with you, and all of this and all of this, these, that stuff. And then we got to the end of the scene, and then they didn't shout stop. And I remember thinking, oh, Blinky, what do I do? Oh, my God, what do I do? And then I thought, what the hell does she do in the film?

15:55I'm watching the film. So I thought, right, OK. So she starts walking around him and she touches his chest. I thought, right, OK, do that. So I touched his chest, walked around the back, and then I felt like his back, and I think I went down and I touched his bum. And then in one swift movement, right, he just sort of grabbed me and swung me around. He managed to get my leg up on his, like, up around his waist. And in one swift move, it was like up the leg and spun me around like that, right. I was full on dirty dancing. I now know what it feels like to dirty dance. and it was pretty damn good, right?

16:26I was like, and my breath was taken out of me. So we did that and then he sort of put my arms in the air and started pulling my top up. So he got my top and I can remember standing there thinking, oh my God, it's going all the way up to my bra. And I was thinking, oh my God, shit, what am I going to do? But I'm going to enjoy in this, I'm just going to go with it. So I went with it and my top came up, and then they went, stop, okay, that's fine, lovely, thank you, Joanna. And I was like, okay, thanks, okay, thank you so much, bye everybody. and I walked out of the room and I was all like really flustered and I went okay onto the next thing and it must have been about five minutes later the casting director came up and went okay Joanna thank you very much we don't need you anymore now you can go and I remember walking out of the door and just thinking keep a smile on your face now and don't cry just don't cry and I walked out of the door and I got onto the Strand and I remember this taxi went past and it had a thing on the side Dirty Dancing is coming and I just remember just being like a chocolate smeared down my top but I just started my period as well like in complete shock in there, right?

17:26And so I was just in a right state and I just thought, I can't go home because my in-laws are in the house. I'm not going back to anybody. James is off in his best friend's 30th birthday. So I'm not going to go and meet them. I just want to fucking go somewhere and cry. I'm just sick of this because I missed out on loads of auditions before this. So I'm just honest to God, I've had enough. And so I saw the Savoy across the road and I thought, fuck it, I'm going there. So I crossed the road and said, do you have a room? So they said, we do. And I was sobbing. I was covered in chocolate. in my dance kit, sweating pints.

17:56And so I handed over my credit card and I just looked quite dodgy. But they took me up to a room and I just burst out crying in the left. I was crying to the man who was taking me up to the room, just going, I'm sorry, I'm an actress and I've just lost out on the part. But it's that, isn't it? It's the ups and downs of being an actress. And actually when, I think we forget actually how many people are rejected for each part. Oh God, yes. And how, what that feels like. All the work that goes into that audition. just to suddenly be discarded because you don't look quite right. And it's hard because, yeah, because you want to put everything into it and, you know, give it your all.

18:31But then when you do, you become so invested. It's really hard to let things go. But after having kids, I'm much better now. I used to throw a script in the bin or now I just go, oh, fuck it, and I just don't even think about it. So I guess, you know, because of, well, not because of Gavin and Stacey, but Gavin and Stacey came along and it did change a lot of things. Well, the script came in two weeks after that, and I was like, oh, my God. Also, there's no way. That's an amazing thing, isn't it? There's no way that you would have done that. Absolutely no way. So I very much believe that everything happens for a reason.

18:59But with that, with knowing the ups and downs of the industry, did that play any part in you? When you decided, let's have children, or started thinking about it, did that play any part of when and thinking about actually not yet? No, not at all. Because I was never, ever maternal where it came to children. Yeah, and I think that's being an only child. and I got married when I must have been about 25. Had you and James spoken about it before? Well, not a lot because we met when I was 23 and I had my dog, Daisy, my Jack Russell and I mean, I was completely devoted to her. She was my baby. And then I met James and then we got married when I was 25 and I can't even remember any big discussions about children because I'd never even wanted to get married.

19:43I never grew up thinking, oh, I want this dress or I want to get married. I was just not in the least bit bothered. But we got married and he says to me now that I'd said, not interested in having children, don't want to have children. And he thought she probably will want them one day and I'm prepared to just wait until she wants them. It's got to happen one day. And didn't even think about kids at all. Kind of working, working, working and just being an actress, enjoying our life together for a good 10 years. And then suddenly when I was 35, I just woke up one day and just went, oh my God, I have to have a baby.

20:14I mean, it literally happened overnight. Really? Yeah, and I'd look at children in the street and be like, oh my God, oh my God, I just, I want to have a baby, I want to have a baby. And that's what prompted us then to move out of London. Yeah. It must have been around about 2012, we moved out to Oxfordshire, and then 2013, I just got pregnant. But it was weird because I remember taking the pregnancy test. I got pregnant straight away, and I remember going into the toilet downstairs, chatting away to James, thinking, oh, I'll just do a test, weeing on it and just chatting away, looking down, and this blue cross just went boom straight away.

20:46Really? And I just, I was in just complete and utter shock. Just complete shock because I didn't think it would happen so quickly. And then in the early stages, I was really quite freaked out by it. I remember going into a mama's and papa's shop and walking in and just going, oh, fuck this for a laugh, and walking back. It made me feel physically sick. I just felt disgusted, disgusted like any of it. And then I had really bad morning sickness. Oh, my God, until I was about 25 weeks pregnant. Really? Yeah, I was fine until I hit six weeks. and it was like basically the day I turned six weeks, everything changed.

21:19And oh God, it was so bad. And it felt, the morning sickness was like flu. It was like this heavy pressing on my shoulders and just this constant flu-y ache on my body. And it's to carry a bag around with me, just being sick all the way through the day. And oh, just this constant nausea. You know when you've got a hangover and you throw up and then it's just the constant sick feeling. Well, that's to last till 25 weeks as well. That's such a long time. And the hard thing, I think, about it is that you never know when it's going to lift or if it will. Yeah. And it's been like that with all of my pregnancies.

21:50Really? Six weeks, on the dot, bump, that's it. It hits me. And then with Eva, it was like 25 weeks. And then with the other ones, it stopped around about 22 weeks. Right. It's just awful, though. Awful.

22:09How did you feel heading towards the birth? Oh, my God. with Eva, I was, when I found out, so it was, I went to see an obstetrician at nine weeks pregnant because I decided that I was going to go private. At first, I thought, I want to go to a birthing centre. I just want to be with midwives. I want everything to be completely and utterly natural. I'm going to do yoga, hypnobirthing. I don't even want an epidural. I'm a very natural person anyway. And I just thought, I just, I want to embrace it. And I want to experience natural childbirth. My mum had a lot of problems. She got pregnant with me straight away.

22:42But then after that, she had two ectopic pregnancies. And then she ended up having to have both of her tubes removed. And so I think maybe this was why I wasn't very maternal as well. Because mum said, you probably have lots of problems. Try and have a baby straight away. You don't even know if you'll be able to get pregnant. And it was sort of ingrained in me that I was going to have problems. And even though I got pregnant straight away, I was still quite frightened. You're just almost waiting for the problem to arise. Yeah, and then I got to 20 weeks pregnant. Everything had been going absolutely fine.

23:10I went and had my scan, and they were lovely, and they said, yes, everything's looking great. You know, I found out that, you know, it was going to be a girl, and she's growing lovely. It's all going fine. Have you had any bleeding? And I was just like, no, no, none, why? And they went, absolutely no reason, just to let you know that if you do, and it's bright red, and it's just shooting down your legs straight away, just get to hospital straight away. So I was a bit like really freaked out, kind of like, oh, my God, what's going on? So I saw him and he said, you've got placenta previa, which is when the placenta is growing low now.

23:44So it's completely covering the cervix. So the baby won't be able to come out that way. But you're only 20 weeks. So we'll just monitor you. Hopefully, as the placenta grows bigger, it'll move to the side. And then, you know, the baby will be able to come out and we'll just see how it goes. So I said, well, if it doesn't move, what happens then? and he said well we'll talk about that when the time comes there's no point in us worrying about stuff or but I got really worried because my first instinct was well what the hell's going to happen with the baby and he was amazing because he said to me you're probably going to have about three bleeds what happens if the placenta doesn't move yeah the pressure of the baby is going to be sitting on the placenta so eventually with the weight of it you'll probably have your first bleed don't worry about that that bleed will stop then you'll have a second bleed which will be you know a bit bigger but that is going to stop as well but then you probably have a third bleed and that's when the baby is going to come so I was and he said we're hoping to get you to 30 weeks 32 weeks would be good but around about 30 weeks is probably when you're going to start bleeding so he said don't think about anything apart from the week that you're in yeah throw away all of your bucks yeah and think about just the week that you're in so you're not thinking about anything else at all and I got to about 32 weeks woke up in the middle of the night went to the toilet and I remember standing in the bathroom and it was just exactly what they said to me.

25:05I looked down and there was bright red blood and it was just shooting down the inside of my thighs, just like these red lines. And I just remember looking and it was just going so fast, just this bright red blood. And I screamed for James and I lay on my back with my legs in the air because I thought, OK, this will keep everything in. And then he went and phoned for an ambulance and said, you know, it's my wife, 32 weeks, placenta previa. And the ambulance got there straight away. he went and stood out in the middle of the road because our house was quite difficult to find and they got there straight away and I was so fast yeah I could hear the ambulance coming in and I grabbed my stuff shoved a pair of um shoved a towel down my leggings ran out the back door got straight in the ambulance and they were like calm down it's okay it's okay it's going to be fine grabbed my notes and on the way down to the hospital I really started shaking because my blood pressure was going and they said um your baby probably is you know going to be born tonight we got in and the bleeding hadn't stopped and I was lying on the table and it was in the middle of the night and I think it must have been the weekend and there was a young doctor and she was beside herself, they were gorgeous in the hospital and they were absolutely fab, they were really really lovely but she was really worried and she was scanning me and I just remember lying there with her going I can't do this, I can't do this She was saying that?

26:14Yeah, she was out like going I can't do this, I'm not qualified, I can't do this, I can't cut her she's just going to bleed because the placenta was going across the front of my stomach as well and she was going you're going to have to call him, you're going to have to call him and they were saying he's in bed, he's in bed I was going, you're going to have to call him. I can't operate on her. She's just going to bleed. So we were in, all gowned up, ready to go into theatre. James was having the gas and air off the wall and being told off by the midwives, trying to lighten the situation. I was about to be wheeled into theatre, and they came to check on me, and all of the bleeding had just stopped.

26:44So they were just like, OK, we don't need to do anything. The baby's absolutely fine. Heartbeat's all OK. Took me up to the ward, and I stayed up there for a couple of days because they wouldn't let me move or anything. And then they said, we're now going to take you to Tarrick in London. And so I got there, went into hospital there, and he just came and, you know, monitored me and looked at me. And he was like, you're perfectly fine. You're all right. You don't need to be in bed. And then the night before I gave birth, Ruth Jones came to visit me. And she was adorable. And she sat there just keeping me company and chatting to me.

27:14And it was really, really nice. And then when Ruth left, I noticed that the baby, she just stopped moving. And it's now after having all of the other kids, whenever anything happens, I won't go anywhere. I just sort of just go, I'm just not going anywhere. So James came back from doing his voiceovers, and I said, she's completely stopped moving. And he said, right, let's just get down to the hospital. And I said, no, I don't want to. I'm not going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere. Yeah, completely froze. I said, I'm not leaving, not leaving at all. And so I went to bed, and I stayed up until it was half past seven in the morning, just playing Plants vs.

27:48Zombies, just lying there, and prodding away and whatever. She just wasn't moving. And it was half seven in the morning, and then I fell asleep. I woke up at half nine. And with placenta previa, you can't feel the bleeding. There's like no pain at all. And so I woke up at half nine. I pulled the sheet back and there was just bright red blood everywhere. I just, I mean, it was just mad. Just blood everywhere. So I screamed to James, oh my God, I'm bleeding. Just get to the hospital. And I ran through Paddington. I ran to the hospital and James was coming after me going, for God's sake, just slow down.

28:21It's going to make the bleeding worse. Slow down. But I mean, I was like this big, massive round ball. And I was sprinting there. I got in. I went straight up to the ward, you know, the labour ward. And they were, I mean, they were fab. They were there, you know, waiting for me. And then they got me into the room, gowned me all up, just wheeled me straight in. I got on the bed. They gave me an epidural straight away, which I think out of all of it was the worst thing. Really? Yeah, the thought of a needle going into my spine. I stayed there and, you know, I wasn't in any pain at all. Didn't have any contractions.

28:49And within about eight minutes, she was just out. And my amniotic sac had split. and it was tearing, but I had a double placenta, so I'd grown. It was huge. I mean, it was like this big butterfly. All of the midwives loved it, and they were all analysing it. They brought it to me when I was in the bed afterwards to show me my placenta. It was a big, big double placenta I'd grown. And then, yeah, she was out in about eight minutes, and she was just adorable. She was perfect. I mean, she was just perfect. Her breathing, we were lucky, you know, because I was 34 weeks and five days. And her lungs didn't have to go into an incubator or anything.

29:21She came out, and she was just absolutely perfect. I remember I didn't have anything on on top. I just had the sheet around me and she was on me. And I remember saying to James, my God, I'm soaking. I'm sweating pints. And the midwife said, no, it's your milk. And oh, my God, within the space of it must have been about 10 minutes, my boobs, I was always so flat chested. My boobs turned into watermelons. They were just like, they were rock solid. They were like, I've never seen anything like it. And the milk was just literally pouring out of me. and I had so much milk and she'd go on and then just sort of kind of flop off and she had George was too tired to feed.

29:59So I was sitting there completely topless and trying to get her on and everyone's got their hands on your boobs. The midwives are like, hold it this way, put it that way, try this or whatever and she'd just keep flopping off and then in the end they said, we want to get the colostrum so we're going to express and it's really difficult to express. You think that you just squeeze, right, and it just shoots out. It doesn't. it's sort of like a technique that kind of goes like that. I didn't have the technique. And the midwife said, you don't mind if we do it for you so we can get it in a syringe and then we can give her the colostrum.

30:28Well, because that's the thing, isn't it? You're trying to express when your boobs haven't done it before and then you're also trying to catch it. Because once they're going, they can shoot across the room. Yes, yeah. But to first of all start getting it out and everything. And then catch it in a syringe. It is difficult, yeah. And James, when he was younger, had a goat. And so he's milked a goat. and it's a real technique and he can do the technique. So I was on the bed at one point. Eva was in the cot thing. I'm on the bed just topless, right, just like that with my eyes closed because I'm absolutely knackered.

31:01And I've got a midwife on the right boob and she's going like this to get it into like a little container. And James is on the other side and he's milking me on the other side. And I'm just like that between the pair of them, like this milk vessel. And I don't care at all. so that's what we were just doing was absolutely fine but when I came out of hospital I don't think I pooed Jesus for about a week and a half really yeah I went through the whole section of all of the different stuff that you can have you know laxative type things and um and I remember sitting on the toilet holding on to James crying going can you die from not pooing because I thought I swear to God I mean this is so bad that surely I think you could probably die from not pooing So on my last birth with Beau, I was all set up and ready to go.

31:49Because with all of the other ones, I kind of done, you know, brought in my own mint tea or brought in my own whatever. It was only giving birth to Beau, someone said to me, just take in prune juice. And I had two big cartons of it. And after giving birth, the midwife said to me, just have a cup of it. All you need is a cup. I fully drank two cartons. So I gave birth and then I just started sipping, drinking, drinking. And by the end of the day, I'd had two full cartons. and then that night I went to bed after the first day of giving birth and I remember going to the toilet at 12 o 'clock and I did a poo, got back into bed, went back out, did another poo, got back into bed and then got out a third time and did another poo and I was so pissed off at that point because I thought I just want to get into bed and I took a photo of myself in the mirror so I could remember what my face looked like.

32:36It's so hard though, isn't it? Because we don't know what our bodies are going to do after giving birth. Because every birth is different. Yes, you have no idea. I mean, you've never been through it before. And when that surge of emotion hits you, when you've got the baby blues, I remember it was after having Noah sitting downstairs, and it was at Christmas time, and everybody was round, and I didn't want to cry or anything in front of everybody. And the day had gone over the next day, it literally just hit me, and I'd sit down, and then I'd just get up and go upstairs and stand in the bedroom and just sob, and then I'd go back downstairs and sit back down and give another five minutes, and then go back upstairs and just sob and sob.

33:14It's just, it's so strange, isn't it? It is. But I think it was after having, I think it was after having Noah. Yeah. So yeah, so I had to have three cesareans. So I'd had to have the cesarean with Eva and then with Kit, he was two, well, yeah, it was about a year and a half later, about two years later. They said to me, you can either have a cesarean because you've already had one cesarean or you can give birth naturally. So I was really unsure and I thought, right, I'm scared. and even though I've always said I want everything to be absolutely natural, I've already had a cesarean and so I know where I'm going with that.

33:47So that is what I would like to do. But I feel guilty and awful about this and scared, so I'm going to also hold on and go, right, okay, I might give birth naturally. I'll see how it goes. But I was booked in for a cesarean for the 2nd of April and I thought, oh, you know, it'll be funny on the 1st of April if I get up in the morning and I get a glass of water, I'm going to go downstairs and talk to James, pour the water behind me and go, oh, my God, my waters have gone. And, you know, like you get an April Fool thing. So I woke up on the 1st of April and felt soaking wet and thought, oh, my God, I've wet myself because I'm so big right now and I think I've wet myself.

34:28So I phoned James. He was downstairs. I couldn't be asked to walk down the stairs. So I phoned him and I said, it's me. I'm in the toilet. I think my waters have gone. My parents were there and James said, oh, she's saying her waters have gone, you know. He said, I'm going to go upstairs and see, but, you know, they haven't. He walked into the bathroom and it was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God, your waters, we need to get to the hospital. And I wouldn't budge. I just wouldn't budge. Again? Yeah. Please, again. Yeah, so this was in the morning, right? And I just said, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere.

34:57Because what if my waters haven't gone? I'm not turning up looking stupid. What if I'm not in labour? I'm just, I'm not going anywhere. So I stayed downstairs for about two hours, cross-legged, on the floor in the living room. So I breastfed Eva, right? So it was difficult at first. And then we got a breastfeeding, you know, doula to come in. And she worked with me and helped me. But it turned out, right, in the end, that I just thought, oh, sod this. I'm just shoving as much of my boob in as possible. Because, you know, you can do the rugby holding and this, so, and that. And after a while, I just thought, oh, my, because she'd go on.

35:29And I could give her the milk, but she'd be hanging off. Yeah. So by the time she came off, oh, Jesus, I was red raw. And in the end, I sort of got my own technique, rammed as much in as I could, and it just, it ended up just clicking and working. Yeah, yeah. And for me, it was just easy. So you ended up doing it for a long time. I ended up doing it for ages because the midwife, the doula said, boob just becomes everything. And for me, it worked, right? Just because it was like, you know, the boob isn't just for feeding. If she's upset, if she's tired, if she's whatever, you know, give her the boob.

35:59which my mother was kind of mortified about right because mum is a Virgo and she's really neat and she's ordered and she's always got really nice hair and lovely earrings and everything matches and she's very you know she's really perfect whereas I was walking around not having showered for about three days and say Eva would cry about something she'd be a bit tired you know where normally she probably would need a little bit of a cry and just put her in a pram and walk her and she'd probably go off to sleep I'd be like no I'm putting her on the boob I'm putting on the boob which was on that plenty of boob, right?

36:30All the time. All the time. And my mum was mortified whenever I got the boob out. After going through the birth, and I bled absolutely loads. So I was low on iron. So this is like going back with the evil end. I was low on iron and I was exhausted. And when I got home, I was just in bed and I couldn't get out of bed. I had to go on iron tablets. I was just really, really low and tired. Two weeks after giving birth, my agent phoned and said, there's an audition. Yes. Can you go into town? It's this new show. It's going to be, you know, the beginnings of the NHS. It's on ITV. We think it's going to be along the same lines.

37:06It's going to be the new Mad Men. It's going to run for years. It's fab or whatever. You've got to go and, you know, audition for it. And I was still in the zone of, I'm an actress. You don't ever turn down a job. You go to every audition. You don't know when the next job is coming in. But how were you feeling physically? Fucked. Absolutely fucked. I was a mess, right? I was just a complete mess. Yes, I think I'd only just a couple of days before managed to poo for the first time. My nipples were bleeding. I was completely gone. I mean, and then, you know, I thought, right, OK, you've got to get yourself together.

37:37Look over these lines. Get down to Leicester Square. I wasn't using a dummy. I wasn't expressing and I wasn't using any bottles. But I said to mum, right, come on. We've got to get down to Leicester Square and we're taking the baby. So we drove her. She cried the entire way in the car seat. Eva always hated the car seat, right? mum would have the muslin like halfway over her and then mum would be singing and rattling this parrot rattle, singing. I mean, no wonder she was bloody crying. We were just like two mad wealthy women. And then we got to this hotel and I said to mum, just go and sit in the reception of the hotel.

38:13And Eva was sleeping at this point and mum said, what the hell am I going to do if she wakes up? I don't have a dummy. You haven't expressed any milk. I don't have any formula. What am I going to do with this baby? And I said, she'll be fine. Don't worry, I won't be long. So I went, and then I went to Spotlight in Leicester Square, walked in. I don't even know how I'd even managed to dress myself. And I sat down, and all I did was talk about my placenta. Talked about placenta previa, my double-sized placenta. Talked about breastfeeding. That's all I talked about. I read the lines, and then just, I didn't give a shit.

38:46Didn't give a shit. Left, and then we drove home. I got in through the door, and my agent phoned, and said they've offered you the part. And also you've been offered the part of Queen Elizabeth I in the 50th anniversary of Doctor Who, which is filming at the same time. So I was just like, oh my God. Also, can I just say, what you would have learned at drama school and what your drama teachers would have told you about going into an audition and the fact that you have fully turned up being yourself, bringing in your chaos, you know, the whole personal, professional thing, keep them separate. I know.

39:17You've gone in, you've been yourself and you've got two jobs off the back of it. I know it's mad when you go in and you just don't care they always want you and so it was six weeks after giving birth I went and started working oh my god it was awful I honestly don't know how I didn't go into a severe depression it was bad we drove down to Cardiff for Doctor Who yeah and oh god it was awful because I mean she was six weeks old all I wanted to do was just you know take her out for walks in the pram and do all those things that first-time mums do and everybody was like it doesn't matter she's not gonna know really jarring as well isn't it that time where this whole new thing this monumental thing has happened you've got this whole new responsibility but then this other world is there your old world is there knocking on the door and it's just i found that really quite so hard and you feel like you still have to do it and you still have to turn up and you've still got to work because that's how the money is coming in because you're self-employed and so I started working I was squeezed into this corset as Queen Elizabeth the first with this red wig on what did your boobs do in that then it was awful so the start of the day right so I'd feed her and James would be with me yeah and God love him right because I still wasn't expressing anything I was adamant I am feeding on demand so a part in my brain had gone of I'm sorry you're not getting me a hundred percent yeah and I was very adamant about what I wouldn't do so I said I'm feeding on demand so when she needs feeding I'm gonna feed so I feed her in the morning we go on set I feed her in the morning and then I give her to James and then he would just be driving around like all of like the little hills and trying to like get her to just sleep in the car and stuff and then I'd be filming and my boobs would just get bigger and bigger and bigger as the day would go on and then at lunchtime I go into my trailer I'd feed her for about half an hour I try and have some food and then I just go back on filming and it was just it was horrific I didn't know my lines.

41:11I didn't know what I was saying. I was doing it all in a Welsh accent. And I just thought, I don't know what I'm doing here. I just can't deal with the situation. Just try and get on set. I was really worried because it was like Matt Smith, David Tenn and Billy Piper. And I just thought, oh, my God, everyone's going to be just thinking, she's shit, she's shit. I can imagine David being the most wonderful human about it. Yeah, he is adorable. and also you would never ever look at a mother, a woman, right, who was given birth six weeks previously, right, and go, she's not being a very good actress right now.

41:45You kind of go, what the hell is she doing? She's really not got her shit together right now. Why isn't she doing a better accent? I mean, surely she could have been working on that this morning. But was it just a decision? We're binning it, she's Welsh. Oh, God, yeah. I mean, it wasn't even a decision. It kind of was like, it was just turn up. Oh, my God, what am I saying? Just look at it. I turn up. Oh, my God, if I manage to get some words out and hit the spot of where I'm supposed to be standing, you know, I've managed to get somewhere. And then I then at the same time started filming this thing, Breathless, then, for ITV about the NHS.

42:17So I'd be on set, and then all of a sudden you could hear this baby's cry in the background, and Mum would have alerted them and said, we've got to feed Eva now. So she'd bring Eva on set. Everything would just stop for about, like, half an hour, and they'd come and go, oh, Jo, how long do you think you'll be? And I was just like, well, I don't know. she could be like half an hour 45 minutes and I just make everybody stop and I would just feed but then you know after you feed afterwards you just want to catch them and hold them and oh my god I just ripped my heart out just having to hand her back and then just go and work and I just thought it's just this not for me I can't do it anymore it's just can't do it anymore well looking back now that you've had you've had three more children you know you've probably done it differently each time depending on what's going on in life looking back at that new mum just trying to juggle it and trying to do it all how does that make you feel I just think that but it was a process of something I had to go through but I think that I could wish I'd have just gone no I'm not going for those you know meetings I am now taking time off to be with my children but I did have to do kind of those two jobs to sort of realize no I just can't it's not for me I just can't do it and I don't have to say yes all the time I just went from that's it I'm not working and so I don't say I mean I just don't think I worked for ages I then had ket and I was quite happy.

43:30I just wanted to be at home. Were you still feeding Eva when Kit arrived? Yes. So I carried on feeding because then we got the swing of it and feeding was great for me. So I carried on feeding and then I got pregnant with Kit and I continued to breastfeed and she was like fully weaned, but I continued to breastfeed whilst I was pregnant with Kit. And so we would go up to bed together. So I was so exhausted. We'd go up to bed and she'd go on the boob and she'd feed and then we'd both fall asleep during the day and fed all the way through the pregnancy. And my My autos had gone and Kit was back to back and he was on like the wrong side.

44:04So they couldn't manoeuvre him onto the other one or whatever. They said, you can continue, you know, to be a natural labour, but we think you will need an assisted delivery. So if you want a cesarean, we can have one. So I said, yeah, let's have a cesarean. And oh my God, he was just like, he was eight pounds and really bad. And the boys were different though, because he just went on straight away to feed. There was no problem with him. Also, I always think at that point, one of you knows, not with that baby, but one of you knows what they're doing. at least in that world. Well, yeah, because it is true.

44:31You do have to sort of train your boobs. It's weird because there's so much stuff that they don't tell you. You think that the baby is just naturally going to go on. And when it's difficult, you're kind of like, why is it not working? Is it just me? And because no, it's like that for everyone. It's really, it's hard. And then I went home and Eva was on one side and Kit was on the other. She was over the moon because she's like two and a half now. And she's having like loads of new. Yeah. But, so I tandem fed. I tandem fed for about two weeks. My mum and my nan were like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this to your dad?

45:08But there's also, I imagine part of that is there then a little bit of mum guilt. There's so much mum guilt. Kind of, I've got to get Eva off. But how am I going to do that without making her feel rejected? Yes, I felt so bad. I just thought, no, I'm just going to have to feed them both at the same time. That was until she sucked so hard. She came off one day. and you know like the minstrel chocolate? Yeah. There was that on the end of my nipple. It was a blood blister. Oh my God, right. It just made me heave. I just thought I don't even, I can't even touch it. I don't even know how I deal with this.

45:38It was awful. And after that, I said to her, Mummy, I'm so sorry, darling, but Mummy can't feed you anymore. I can, all I can do now is just feed the baby. And she went, okay, Mummy. And she never said another word. She was like absolutely fine. But in your head is a really big thing. Yeah, in my head, I was like, oh my God. Like it was like a massive, She was absolutely fine about it. Well, then third pregnancy then. Yes. Little Noah then came along. And that was funny because he, so I had to have a cesarean then because it was my third. Yeah. I had morning sickness with all of them. And actually when you're on the third one and you've got morning sickness and you're trying to feed the other two, I would be putting breakfast out.

46:17And then at the same time, I'd be putting it on the kitchen table. Then I would go to the kitchen sink. I'd throw up in the kitchen sink. I'd wet myself at the same time. and so I then have to just put a towel in between my legs and just be putting the rest of the stuff on the table. I mean, I was a bright state. I just wasn't good at all. And then with Noah, oh, my God, I really started getting with smells. Like, oh, my God, the smell of, like, the grass was just turning my stomach. And then halfway through, we ordered this leather sofa. And I thought it would be, like, absolutely fine. We ordered a leather sofa for the kitchen.

46:53Oh, it was unbelievable. I'd get up in the morning, I'd open the bedroom door and the smell would hit me and that would just be it. It was just, it was awful. So we had to phone up and they had to come and take the sofa away. But yeah, with Noah, it was all, everything all went to plan. We went into hospital and it was very weird going into the theatre where everything is calm because there's no emergency. So I remember lying there and James is so queasy and squeamish. He couldn't even be in a room with me when I was having my blood taken. He'd have to stay outside. So he's sitting next to me.

47:22I'm lying there and the little curtains up and then Tarek said right uh we're just about to start and with that so say that's my head Tarek went okay we're just going to start so I went okay and then James went all right and he left behind the curtain and just looked and I looked at him and he just he'd gone green and it looked like somebody poured like a flannel or you know water all over his face because he literally just like that just went green and was soaking wet and I went oh my god are you all right what's the matter and he went I've just seen uh the scalpel go in and catch you. I looked behind the curtain.

47:54And I went, oh, my God, why did you do that? And then he went, I'm going to faint. And he went like that. And the midwives had to catch him. And they took him off the stool. And then they had to sit him on the floor with his head between his legs. And that's where he just had to sit for a while. And I was lying there looking at him, just openly laughing, just going, oh, my God, this is so embarrassing. I can't believe you're doing this. You had the three. and just as the youngest was about, just as you were about to have all three in school. Yes. Well, we'd always said we were going to have four.

48:28Did you? James is one of four. Right. So in his head, it was like, we're having four children. That is a family, yeah. Yeah. So after the third, I was just like, right, okay, I want to have a fourth. I want, you know, and James said, no, absolutely not. I think we should finish on three. If we have another, it's going to break us emotionally, financially, physically. We can't do it. We just can't do it. So I was really disappointed. and I thought okay all right then you know if that's what you want to do okay we've got three my god we're lucky we've got three so that's absolutely fine and Noah was five and he was just starting school and so I was just like oh my god for the first time ever now I'm gonna have three of them in school and so I dropped them all off I came back home and as I drove back into the house James was in the garden right and I think I well I obviously me I think I was I obviously was ovulating.

49:18She was suddenly going four. Yeah, I drove him. He was gardening and he was wearing low slant tracksuit bottoms and he didn't have anything on his chest. He was bare chested and he just looked like a really rugged, northern sexy gardener. And I just thought, oh my god, he just looks gorgeous, really rough and just rugged. And so I parked the car and I went, I got up and I went quick, just get upstairs, let's have sex. And he went straight away are you ovulating? Because he knew I'm so tired that something must be up. And I went, I don't know. I don't know if I'm ovulating. It's like I've had three children.

49:55I knew by then I think I might be ovulating. But I went, I don't know. I don't know if I'm ovulating. And he went, you're ovulating, aren't you? But he was straight up upstairs. And then I went upstairs and I'm 44. I mean, honest to God, do you think I'm going to get pregnant through having sex once? Well, I did.

50:13So we did it, right? So that entire month, we hadn't had sex at all apart from once. I'm very sorry if my sex life that particular month is not very exciting, but that is what it's like with three kids. But that month, we'd done it once and I was 44 and I didn't know if I was ovulating. But I thought, Jesus, this feels like I've got something inside me. This feels like when I'm pregnant. So I was in Cardiff, so I put a face mask on because everybody knows what our voice is and everything and what we look like in Cardiff. and I thought, oh my God, if I go in and buy 10 boxes of pregnancy tests, I mean, that would just be embarrassing.

50:48So I went off, bought loads of boxes of tests, went back to the hotel, sat on the loo, weed on the stick, and it just went boof and just came up straight away. And I just thought, oh my God, I'm 44. I'm 44 and I'm pregnant. And we only did it once. What the hell are we going to do? So I phoned him and I said, hiya, it's me, because he was up in Oxfordshire. said it's me are you with the kids and he went well obviously i'm with the kids and i went okay can you just leave the room and just go somewhere on your own you know to sit in a room on your own i i've got something to tell you and he thought i was gonna i mean it was so serious and so out of character he thought i was gonna say something like you know i'm leaving you or this has happened or you know it was because it was so like i i have i've got are you on i need to tell you something on your own so he was like oh my god what's the matter to us what's the matter and i went i'm pregnant and he was like what I've never heard him in our entire marriage and relationship ever be so shocked and just be so quiet and then really quickly he just changed because with all the other pregnancies yeah he was always really really cautious all the way through until right at the very end and then he'd allow himself to be like oh my god everything's all right this is all going to be okay he was always really cautious and really careful and really cautious in the split second he just went oh my god this is amazing and he went this is like me because he was the fourth one and his mum had had a um what's it called now the coil she had coil fitted so she had three and then it was about a good oh my god was it a good five six years between brothers and she had a coil fitted and she got pregnant with james and she had the coil in her womb all the way through the pregnancy with him because she wouldn't let the doctor pull it out and then when he was born, he had the cord around his neck as well.

52:38Oh gosh. So he was kind of like, oh my god, this is like sort of a miracle baby. You're 44. We didn't even know you were ovulating. Come on. We're going to do it. We're going to do it. It's amazing. Joanna, I've never been so sad to say that we have to move forward and I'm gutted that we have to, but Alex the pedista is going to tell me off if I carry up talking. I need to ask you, there's a few things we do at the end of the podcast. One is, if you could write a letter on motherhood, who would be two and what would you say? I think if I was going to write a letter, I'd write it to all of my four children and I would just write a letter to all of them just saying just how wonderful they are.

53:13Everything they've brought to my life, how much I adore them and how I just, they just, they've made my life, they've made our lives and how I love them with all my heart and how I want them to just go on and have the most amazing lives. We end the podcast with you completing three sentences. Being a mum means? It means complete, Well, for me anyway, completely sacrificing everything about me, which I know you're not supposed to or whatever, but I've enjoyed doing that. Sacrificing kind of the old me to be this huge big mama bear, which I love. Since having children, I... Never go to the toilet on my own.

53:49And finally, I'm happy when... Oh, I'm happy when we're down the caravan in West Wittering and everybody has been out. We've got up, we've all gone and we've walked and played on the beach and we've collected stones and we've crabbed. And I've worn them out like they're a load of dogs. And then I bring them back to the caravan and they are run ragged and I feel like my job is done. And I sit them down and I put a film on for them and I can just be in silence doing a jigsaw and drinking a French martini. I love, Joanna, I have literally just sat here and grinned and listened to you. I hope it wasn't too mad.

54:25No, it's great. It's great. I mean, it's like leaning into your mind for a while and having a little bit of this and a little bit of that. It has just been wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on. It's a pleasure. This is like therapy. This is quite wonderful. We should just sit down with a puzzle and a French martine together and just keep going. I've got my cocktail shake. There you go.

54:58Thank you.