Lacey Turner on pregnancy loss, the importance of family, and 20 years on EastEnders

0:01Coming up on Happy Mum, Happy Baby I was walking down the stairs with a pregnancy stick and I just turned it round and my mum went... And I was like, I haven't told Matt yet. And my mum ran in the kitchen and went, Lacey's pregnant! I like this, I'll take this. I was going to tell him! And Matt being Matt, Matt's so laid back. He's like, oh, great. I became quite neurotic about the pregnancy because I was so terrified of losing it. Yeah. and how I never wanted to go back to that place, never wanted to feel how I felt then. So I text Richard after I'd given birth. I said, don't worry, I'll be in next week just to film those last few scenes.

0:44So I went in for a morning just to finish. I mean, what was that like? I mean, that was... Having two under 17 months, you've given birth. I know, but I'd had that lovely sleep because I couldn't...

1:03Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. I am very excited because I've been watching today's guest on our screens for a long, long time. She's just told me it's 20 years since she first joined EastEnders as Stacey Slater. I'm so excited. It's Lacey Turner, mum of three and mum of three, the third being 11 weeks old. Yes. Well done. Not even just for being at the house, but well done for looking so amazing as well. You look very put together. Oh, well, when I get dressed, my son says, where are you going? Because he only ever sees me in a tracksuit. How are you feeling?

1:39Because I do feel like 11 weeks, you could potentially be coming out of the storm of it, of a newborn. Or are you still feeling very much like you're juggling? Do you know what? It's so weird because I don't feel like I've had a baby. I have. Really? I have really quick births. Really? Yeah. Yeah, so Dusty was six hours from door to coming out. Trilby was three from door to coming out. And she was an hour and a half. No! So, I mean, listen, I'm not taking anything away from giving birth. I mean, who had a fourth? It would just slip out. Well, I think I'd sneeze. It would just fall out. Oh, God.

2:16Let's talk about you now. Are you sleeping? Yeah. Are you? Well, she only, she gets up at two. See, the thing with the third is they have to fit in around the others. so she can't do 7, 11, 3 because they've got to get up at 7. So funny because Max was the same. I wonder if there's something, I mean, there'll be mums of 3 that are going, no, that's not true, mine are waking up. But I wonder if there is something in that of kind of going, well, this is, or maybe we're less frantic as we work with the other two. Well, they breathe the first one and you go, and then you check them and then the third one, they sort of go, and you think, oh, they're waking up.

2:52All right, I'm coming. you're just sort of more relaxed aren't you because you sort of know what those sounds mean and you get what all the different cries mean so it is i found the the jump from one to two quite shocking but not two to three i sort of she just sort of i felt like i enjoyed the third a lot more in the early days like that less feeling like i had to do certain things yes just sit and hold Yeah. And if they don't go to sleep, do you know what? They will eventually. Yeah. It doesn't really matter. Whereas the first one, you're like, but it says on the paper that you've got to go to sleep at half nine.

3:29Gina Ford said... Shh! You're like a mad woman and you're like, oh, my God, it's only been 40 minutes. Run up the stairs. Whereas the third one, you're like, oh, God, you're up. Come on, let's go. Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about the fact that you've been in these standards for 20 years. That is... Yeah. That's ridiculous. I know. I don't feel old enough. I don't feel like I've been there 20 years. But then the Slaters feel like my childhood, do you know what I mean? I feel like they've always been around. They started, the Slaters come in 2000, and I came in 2004. Right. And I remember watching them all.

4:02I mean, like, iconic scenes between, like, Jess and Michelle. And I remember sitting watching it on the telly, and I actually had a market stall on the corner of where the studio is. Because you were a massive EastEnders fan. You lived right next door to it. Always, yeah. The part of the set from your bedroom window. Yeah. Did you always know that you wanted to act or did you always know that you just wanted to be in EastEnders? No, I sort of, I'd always danced and, you know, I went to a dance school and a drama class on a Wednesday night and I'd always sort of loved that whole world. I did musical theatre when I was younger.

4:33I did a bit of dancing at the Albert Hall and, you know, bits and bobs. And then by the time I was 13, I just sort of didn't bother. Yeah. I found boys and going out and stuff like that. So I sort of gave it all up. But I did still go to a drama class on a Wednesday night, which was a fiver in Wembley. And I think it was just my mum's way of saying, right, you just do something, just an activity. Just think she wanted something to do on a Wednesday night. She could walk round Asda while I was in the drama class. And they sat in on, Julia Crampsey, the casting director, was sat in the hall one night.

5:09And that's how it all came about. That's crazy. Yeah. And I did my last GCSE on the Wednesday and started there on Thursday. Whoa! I know. I remember my teacher saying to me... I didn't care. I was like, this is brilliant. I'm right what I like. I've still got nine. I am my mum's favourite child. Are you? Yeah, it was crazy because I sort of... I remember getting the call from my mum and when you were in year 11, you had your own little green room. And she was like, go to the toilet, go to the toilet on my mobile. So I've gone in and she was like, you've got the job. Because originally I'd gone for a different part and didn't get it.

5:50Right. And then they created this, apparently Tony Jordan said to, I think it was Sarah Phelps actually, she's not a Miller, she's a Slater. And then they created Stacey Slater, which was lovely. Yeah. Because they were my favourite family. Like, I didn't want to go into EastEnders and be a Miller, I wanted to be a Slater. I love the idea, though, that all the different families are like, you, you millers. Yeah. The Slaters stick together. I don't want to be a Bill. I don't want to be a Slater. Because they were fiery and dramatic. And their rivalry was such a bang. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was all these big personalities, a house full of girls.

6:30You know, that's what I came from, a house full of girls. You argue, you throw the clothes, go to get your favourite jeans, your sister's got them on. It's like, it felt like so real to me, that household. Is that what your childhood was like? How many of you were there? There's three girls. Three girls? Yeah. Are you close in age? Well, me and Daisy are two years apart, and then Lily came along when I was 13. Ooh, how did that feel? I loved it. Did you? I loved having my own doll. I said to my mum, don't mind me, I'll walk around the block. I used to take her out in the pram, walk around the block.

7:01I'd get up in the night and do the night feeds with my mum. Yeah, we loved it. I love that. I know, I've just left my baby with her now, so she's not a baby anymore. she's 22 now, but she's still very much like the baby. Yeah. But, yeah, no, I loved it. It feels like family's always been a really important thing to you. Yeah, it is. It's everything to me, really. I mean, my mum is amazing and my nan, they, my nan had four children. She had three boys and a girl. And she always had people around. We always had Sunday dinner. You know, Christmas was always at my nan's. And my mum has always sort of really kept us girls close together because my other sister lives in Dubai now, but she lived in Singapore for a long time.

7:49Right. But I still speak to her every day. You know, I think it would break my mum's heart if we ever fell out. Yeah. We've all been really close. I love that. And it also means that you just get the dynamics of what it's like to be in that Slater family where there's loads of women, loads of hormones. Yeah, exactly. and you drive the man in the house mad. Yeah. Which we did. We drove my dad absolutely mad. He was great very early on. Living in the house with four women. Gosh. I know. How old were you when you met Matt? I was 15. My best friends, who you know, Liv, is married to Paul. So we were like a group of friends.

8:29So Matt and Paul were friends and me and Liv were best friends. And you know you just go everywhere with your best friend. and we used to, she met Paul and then he started coming around Paul's and I thought, he's quite funny actually and then I thought, actually no, he's not funny. Not funny at all, he's just annoying. And then he asked me out and I was like, alright. I remember I was wearing an orange velour track suit. I had a green one, brown one, an orange one. They were very in there. In fact, I think they've made a comeback. I'm getting old. That is so cute that you and Liv, like, dated best mates as well.

9:06That's really cute. It is, yeah. And as we've got older, we all sort of, like, stay, keep in touch and know our children and friends. It's lovely. Yeah. Can you remember when you were younger, even before Matt, ever thinking ahead to your future, and did you see yourself as someone who wanted to have a family? Yeah, always. It's funny, when you're younger, you think, right, I'll get married when I'm 22. I'll have a baby when I'm 24. but it just doesn't work that way. No. You know, as you get old, do you think, you know, 22 is so young now. Well, no, so you and Matt, though, were so young. You're like me and Tom, but you were so young when you first got together that actually that jump from being together and having that sort of teen drama or whatever else to actually going, oh, no, this is actually something and looking at what your future.

9:52Yeah. It feels like such a massive jump to actually make it happen. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. We sort of look at each other and think, how are we still here? We've got three children. How have we done that? This is always mad. Can you remember you two talking about family life? Yeah, I think Matt always wanted three children and I wanted four. I've now changed my mind. Just to say, three is it? But yeah, I mean, Matt was one of three, I was one of three. So I think three, he was like, no, three. Did you discuss like baby names and stuff before? We did, yeah. It's funny because when we, I always had a boy's name, always.

10:33Really? Always, always, always, thinking I'd never have a boy. We don't have any boys in my family. They're all girls. To the point where when I told my nan that I was pregnant, she went, oh, I hope it ain't a gal. I'm effing sick of girls is what she said. And then she hung up. So, yeah. Dusty's name, we came up with, it was so weird. We must have been on the same page on the internet at the same time. and literally I was sitting in the bath, he was sitting on the toilet. Don't know why I'm telling you that bit, but we both said the name at the same time. No way! Yeah. I love things like that.

11:08It was really the same. I just think, yeah, that was definitely it then. That was it. It wasn't changing. When you first got to the point where you two were like, right, let's actually start thinking about having a family, was there stuff like work and things like that that you had to, did you worry about timing or anything like that? We tried for so long to have a baby and I'd actually left EastEnders and I was doing Algo and Bedlam and loads of different stuff and you're never near home. No. I was never near home. I spent a lot of time in Wales, a lot of time in South Africa, Manchester and I'm a real home person.

11:46And I remember saying to my mum, I can't have a family like this, you know, slapping all over the country. Matt's there, my house is there, you're all there. Did it make you almost crave that family even more? Yeah, and actually, everything I loved was in Boreham Wood. So I was like, and actually one of the story team, Dom Treadwell Collins, he then became exec, so I thought, I'm going to go back. I love it there. It's near home, I go home every night, I'm going to go back. So I text him and say, can I come back now, please? And he was like, of course you can. It must be such a nice feeling for people when their characters leave, but it's open-ended.

12:29Yeah, it's lovely. I think there's the old joke about everyone going off to Manchester. Yes. Or prison, in my case. He was fine, it was fine. Goes to prison. But yeah, and that was when I thought, okay, if I'm going to stay here, I'd signed a two-year contract, now would be the time. And then it obviously took us a really long time. I think that switch from kind of going, we're not having children yet, we're not yet, not yet, so let's start trying. And then actually that not happening in the way that you thought it would can be quite surprising. Because, you know, especially I think when you're together so young.

13:06I don't know about your parents, but my parents were very much like, don't get pregnant, be careful, be safe. And I think it's so drummed in our heads to make sure that we're careful or that we're thinking about things. Well, my mum took it to the extreme. She was like, you're going to watch me give birth to your sister. Seriously, and we did. Really? What was that experience like? And that was the best form of contraception ever. Daisy was 11 and I was 13 and my nan was there. My dad's no good because he faints, so he wasn't invited. But we was walking down the corridor and this woman was screaming and I remember thinking, oh, my God.

13:43And my mum's really calm and, you know, like, it's fine. Anyway, she had a water bath and I watched it. me and Daisy were at the back and then when the head come out we were allowed to come round the front, we cut her cord it was amazing it was the best thing ever because I feel like birth is such an animalistic thing or it can be and you don't think about who else is in the room in terms of what they're seeing in that way do you know what I mean? so to see your mum at her rawest I would say it was amazing Really? And it just, yeah, I think when you're 13, you don't think about, oh, my God, you know, my mum's just done the most amazing thing.

14:25Yeah. But I remember thinking, I can't believe I've just seen my sister come into this world. And then I ended up having two of my children in the same pool. No way! In the same, yeah, so it just, and in my head, that was how birth goes. Yeah. I think it was two and a half hours, so I just thought, well, that's how mine's going to go. so I always had this really positive experience of birth so I was never scared of giving birth and I just thought mine's going to go that way and my first one did and then the second one didn't and I tried so desperately to get up to that pool and she was like no no I was like but I am 37 weeks she said you're not you're 36 I was like no it's wrong and she was like you're not and then he was out but in my head it was always going to go that I didn't have this horrible experience of hearing about dreadful births or hours and hours of being in labour I saw I never had that so I just had this positive experience but you did have this very natural form of contraception in the form that you had seen labour yes beforehand yes yes so I guess that also means that when you actually did go right this is the time that then it is that thing of right almost you welcome everything that comes with it.

15:44The thought of how your future's going to look suddenly changes. And then when it doesn't happen straight away, that's a really weird place to be. Really? I don't know about you, but until I started trying, I didn't realise that it took a long time or that there could be facility issues or anything like that. No. Well, I just think as well, like, we tried for so long and it just didn't happen. So I thought, OK, you know, didn't realise it was such a small window. You just don't really think about that. and then I started to have miscarriages and that's where you go I remember my first one was just terrible I remember laying on the bed and I was just uncontrollably sobbing but I had this like weird weird thing like why are you crying why are you so sad for something you didn't know something that's barely there and then it's now looking back why do you think you were so upset if you could actually put that into words I just think I think actually part of it was the shock of this is actually happening to me.

16:46No one spoke about it. I didn't. I'd never, ever had a conversation with anybody about miscarriage. I mean, what was I, 29? No one had ever spoken about it. I didn't really read about it anywhere. Or, you know, you sort of heard that word thrown about, you know. I also think it's one of those things that people don't talk about or certainly didn't back then when we both had our first. that thing of almost not wanting it to happen. So let's just brush it under the carpet because if we don't talk about it, then it might not happen. It might not happen, yeah. Whereas I think actually maybe if we were more aware, not that it would take that pain away because I think there is a real heartache when all that, what you thought was going to happen, all those dreams, all those hopes suddenly go.

17:33Yeah, and I think that was what made me so sad. I thought, well, I'm not going to have this baby and I'm not going to put this baby in my lovely pram and I'm not going to have that picture walking out of the hospital with the car seat. I think it's all the things that you associate with having a baby, you know, your first baby, all the things you're excited for and the first outfit and things like that. I just, it all sort of went... Did you allow yourself to grieve? Well, I think I went to work. Really? Yeah. I did, I think, pretty sure. Well, I actually drove, we drove to the hospital. I didn't know what to do.

18:12I didn't know. And I got to the hospital and she was like, oh, you're just, you're having a miscarriage. And I was like, oh, right. Well, why? Or, you know, what do I do now? I had no idea. My mum didn't have any idea. She'd never had one. You know, it was sort of like, my mum was a bit like, I don't know. I think you just have to, you know, phone the doctor. and you phone the doctor and they're like, yeah, it's a miscarriage. And I just remember thinking, I'm Googling it and there's nothing there. Going to the hospital, you're like, I'll go home, carry on. And it was just a really strange feeling.

18:46Very true, actually, about that early miscarriage. No one could help me. No one could tell me what to do next. No one was there to say, well, if you need to talk about it, phone this number or speak to this person. It was just like, oh, yeah, you're having a miscarriage. Because if you're having a miscarriage and it's all going to happen in itself, you don't need a DNC or anything like that. It is that thing if you just go off and you do it. And actually, where is that support in those moments? There wasn't any. And I think then I had another miscarriage. And that's when I thought, right, I'm not.

19:15I need to be able. I'm in a position where I can talk about this openly. I'm quite an open person. Let's talk about it. And actually, weirdly, the more I spoke about it, people were just coming at me with, oh, I've had a miscarriage. Oh, I know someone's had. and all of a sudden all these people that I'd known for years and years and years had had miscarriages and I had no idea. And then I sort of thought, okay, well, I've got to try and get this more out there. I don't ever want anyone to feel how I felt in that first instance. The thing is that even though you know that you can't take away the pain from other people or somehow letting other people know that they're not on their own because I do think it's the loneliest grief because all those dreams and hopes that they're yours.

20:02So they're a very personal thing. So I think it is something that you do experience in a very isolated way. However, knowing that there are other people dealing with their own special grief, I think there is something unifying in that. You were seven weeks with both of them as well, weren't you? Yeah, between seven and nine weeks. So falling pregnant the second time, how was that after the first loss? I've never enjoyed a pregnancy because I always think, oh, it's going to go. It's going to go. And I'm lucky enough, you know, I was, you had to have three miscarriages, I think, before you could go anywhere.

20:42The second miscarriage I had, I had a friend who, because of talking about it, she said, oh, that happened to me. Go and see this man. So I did, and we had all the, I mean, I was lucky enough to be able to take it upon myself, pay for it privately and they tested Matt they tested me and nothing came back but there was still a tiny bit like the size of a grain of rice left there and they kept saying to me I'll wait another cycle, wait another cycle and it went on for months and I met this man called Bill Smith, he actually just won an OBE and he's like the David Attenborough of the womb He sounds like him, he looks like him, and without this man I wouldn't have children.

21:30And he said to me, emotionally, it's enough. You cannot do this for another month. He could just see the pain of waiting for this tiny bit of whatever was there to go. What, did they just think it was going to sort of... Well, every month it was getting smaller, but it was like 0.000 of a millimetre. like it was the most tiniest it was a part of a fetus or part of a whatever was there and I just it was every month you'd be thinking oh it would be gone now I can try again another month oh no it's not gone can't try again another month you can't try can't try can't try and it just went on for like six months and he said it's enough go and have a dnc so I did have that done privately because you couldn't have it done on the nhs and then that was it we we just kept trying but it was terrifying it did take away the excitement of being pregnant well I've heard you saying before that your second pregnancy you definitely didn't have that excitement it's almost like you were waiting for the miscarriage to to come that always all of them have been the same you know even once I was lucky enough to find out what my problem was and I just basically don't make any progesterone after seven weeks right so I can take progesterone and know that I've got a really good chance of having a successful pregnancy.

22:52Even still, knowing that, knowing that it worked, even with Gypsy, I still... My mum would say, can we buy stuff now? We're not 34 weeks. No, you can't. Didn't want to buy anything. I didn't have anything. There's certainly a thing. I think once you've gone through a loss, every day feels like an achievement. Yeah. Every toilet trip feels like an achievement. Yeah. You just think I'm nearly there. I'm nearly there, it could all go tomorrow. Yeah. And it's that thing of when I still don't understand why the 12-week thing is there because you can lose a baby at 24 weeks, you can lose a baby at 39 weeks, you can lose a baby at any point and actually that first 12 weeks is when I needed someone more than ever.

23:38Yeah. Because you're not allowed to tell anyone. But really you need to tell everyone so everyone can say to you it will be fine or if it's not, we're here. You raised a lot of awareness around the impact on depression and suicide rates and stuff like that. What did it give you to actually campaign like that for other people? Did it give you a focus and a drive, knowing that actually if you could talk about it, you'd make change for other people? Yes, that was it. I didn't want anyone to be in that position that I was when I was sat in my bed Googling what has happened to me. What is this? And where do I go from here?

24:15and I just thought I'm in a position, I'm in the public eye, I can reach the public much easier than, you know, Joe Bloggs down the road. I have to do something. It felt like it's my responsibility to try and just get people to talk about it. I never thought I could change it, I can't change it, but just talk about it because actually that made the world of difference to me. It opened it up. You're suddenly, you're not alone. and I didn't want anyone to feel that alone. I also wanted people to think about the other person in the relationship because Matt didn't know what to say to me, I didn't know what to say to Matt and there was this awkwardness between us that wasn't there before that we didn't know and also maybe he's sad.

25:03I never thought about that the first time and also wanted to make sure that somebody did check in with the other person because it does affect them. It's not in their body, but that was going to be their baby too. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's so important. And I think it's an incredible thing when people in the public eye speak about, you know, what they've gone through. And I think it's such a, it's an incredible thing for people to go on sofas and touch on things because that is what opens up conversations. and I know that even when we had Amanda Holden on the second series talking about Theo, her son who was sadly born stillborn at seven months and she still talks about him a lot now and you understand, I think, when you've gone through a loss how important it is to have those things out there because otherwise it turns back into a taboo.

25:57It turns back into that thing that we don't talk about and actually I think it's so important that we have those conversations out there. Like we have to. Well, it's that saying, isn't it? A problem shared is a problem halved. And that is true. Absolutely. How did you feel when you were pregnant for the third time? Did you feel different because you had Bill there sort of helping you? Yeah, I mean, I drove him mad. Did you? I went for a scan every two weeks. And he was like, Lacey, I was like 34 weeks. He was like, you really don't have to come now. I was like, no, I do, Bill. I'll see you next week.

26:34Did you feel like you could accept the pregnancy or were you even like a little bit in denial of it actually happening? No, I could. The third time around, it was easier. I mean, I still didn't buy anything. I still, you know, I made up these superstitions in my head that became really massive. If I bought a pram in the house, then the baby will die. If I, you know, whatever it was. But having a scan every two weeks makes you go, you sit there and think oh my god he's gonna say because also i think otherwise you're sat at home they're going oh i feel this oh i feel this so have i felt anything today you can drive yourself insane yeah well i think you could what you get a 12 week scan and then a 20 week scan that's i i would never have coped i would have driven myself insane insane i would have driven myself i needed to know there was a heartbeat yeah i needed to know that the baby was growing at the right, you know, rate that it should be growing.

27:34I needed to know all these things. I needed to know the circumference of its head. And I became quite neurotic about the pregnancy. I mean, it makes total sense, doesn't it? Because I was so terrified of losing it. Yeah. And how I never wanted to go back to that place. Never wanted to feel how I felt then. Yeah. Did you tell people? And at what point did you tell people that you were pregnant? I always left it really late because I just think I would leave it until I couldn't get away with it anymore. Really? And people were like, we knew ages ago. And I was like, thanks for pretending. Even if things like work, like, yeah, I guess you just try and leave it as late as possible.

28:20Yeah, I just used a knot-tail costume and I was really, really, had really bad morning sickness with Gypsy and we were filming on location and one of the lovely costume girls, Beth, I said, can you go and get my maternity Spanx? And she was like, oh, are these tight? And I was like, yeah. And she sort of looked at me and I was like, don't tell anyone. And poor Beth, she had to keep this, like, in for ages and ages and ages. But I was literally falling asleep filming the court scenes for Dino's, for what I was, my head was on the table. The director must have thought, boy, it's got into her, isn't it?

29:00Because I'm not like someone who relaxes. I'm always up and about. And it didn't help that I had neurovirus as well. I'd caught that from Trilby. So I could sort of put it on that. But I was in a room full of, like, men who had no idea what was going on. I could tell, like, I was filming with the six women, you know, the six. And we was in the Winnebago. and they were like, oh, how are you feeling? And I was like, well, I'm actually pregnant. And they all literally fell to their knees. And I was like, you're the first people I've told. Because I thought, they must be thinking now, what is she doing?

29:38Why do you keep falling asleep everywhere? I wasn't going to get away with it. It was normally you can pop up to a dressing room, but I didn't have a dressing room to hide. I had nowhere to hide. I'm just stuck in the Winnie-Bago with everyone looking at me. They take care of you after that, though? Yes, they did. They were amazing. What do you think stopped you from telling people sooner with each of the pregnancies? I think I just got scared. Because then the reason is funny, you don't tell anyone, but then if you do tell someone and you lose it, you've then got to tell them you lost it. And that's an awkward conversation.

30:15And also it makes other people feel awkward because I became quite comfortable with saying, oh, I've had a miscarriage. and then you watch that person go, oh my God, I don't know what to say now. But it's so hard because the only way that we can ever break that down is by just having it out there. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And all of a sudden if that person, not that you want them to hear it enough, but if they can hear it and not kind of... Clam up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then at some point it becomes that easier thing that's just out there in society that happens that actually lets talk about it.

30:47So it's really hard to, you know, you need it out there. Yes. It just means it will just help. If everybody was OK or comfortable with talking about it, like many other things, it would help so many people. Absolutely.

31:09Did your later three pregnancies, did they differ to each other? No, they were all pretty similar, actually. Slightly different shapes. but no they were they were quite similar I mean a lot of people who people who know me knew I was pregnant because I would eat sausage and beans every morning I mean I don't change I'm a creature of habit I've had toast with two butters and two marmalades for 20 years and all of a sudden I'm like can I have three sausages double beans and two bread and butter and I could see Liza our producer going okay so did you find out what you're having with each of them only gypsy because I had because Dusty and Trilby are so close together they're only 17 months um because he ended up being a month early so I had you know two two in nappies two lots of bottles two cots because she was still and she was only 17 months when he was born so she was still in a cot two brams had two of everything and we recently moved we moved two years ago and the basement is like mother care and I just thought do you know what I could do with like getting rid of I don't need two cots so we did find out and then I thought at least I can get rid of yeah most of the stuff yeah um but yeah so falling pregnant with with trilby was that That kind of, had you got to the point where you were like, gosh, if we fall pregnant now, it's going to be obviously a nice little surprise.

32:45It was a surprise. I remember sitting at Dusty's first birthday, which was just after lockdown. So it was just when you're allowed like, I don't know, was it 11 people or whatever in the garden? So we had that. That was her party, 11 people in the garden. And I remember sitting at her first birthday and crying. And everyone was like, oh, don't worry. She's only one. and I'm thinking, no, I'm actually seven weeks pregnant. Ah! Oh, my God. But a mixture, right? Because it's that thing of knowing how difficult it was for you to get pregnant and then all of a sudden you're pregnant without thinking about it, without all that mental, you know, the worry and the anxiety that comes when you're trying to suddenly find yourself pregnant.

33:29It's that... Well, it's that thing of thinking I didn't know it could happen like that. Yeah. You know, because to me that wasn't a thing. It was always going to take me ages to fall pregnant. But no, it didn't. I remember walking down the stairs. I hadn't even got to Matt yet. Matt was in the kitchen. And I came down the stairs and my mum came to get dusty to drop her to nursery. And I was walking down the stairs with a pregnancy stick and I just turned it round. And my mum went, oh. And I was like, I haven't told Matt yet. And my mum ran in the kitchen and went, Lacey's pregnant. I like this.

34:01I'll take this. I was going to tell him. and Matt being Matt Matt's so laid back he's like oh great I mean he is how he puts up with all my bright ideas I'll never know I could say oh we've just bought a giraffe just coming on Wednesday and he'd go oh okay I think he must have been in Jesus' face oh but yes so so you felt quite relaxed going towards the births because you had yeah you'd seen it I love giving birth. Do you? Terrible pregnant. I think because I spend most of it really anxious and I just find it really difficult because I like to do things. I'm always moving. I don't sit down. I barely watch telly.

34:45So I always found the pregnancies quite hard, but I always look forward to giving birth. Really? Yeah, and I'll never forget the midwife I had when I had Dusty because I got there and the woman was like, you can't get in the pool. And I said to my mum, just put me in the bath. What's she going to do? You manhandle me out. And my mum was like, OK, all right, yeah, I'll just put you in the bath. So she put me in the bath and then she was saying I had to get out this mid-air. And I thought, I'm not getting out. I'm having a water birth. That was what was in my head. That's what was happening. What was her reason for not letting you go in it?

35:16The baby was facing the wrong way. Right, OK. And I was like, I'm not getting out. I know you know better, but I'm not getting out. And then all of a sudden I heard this northern voice and I was like, oh, my God, it's the woman from yesterday. I loved her. and then she had her eyelashes, her big bun and I was like, oh my God, it's you. And she was like, fill that bath up, she'll turn. And she did. And because of her, I had such a lovely birth. And when I got there, when I went to have Trilby, I asked if she was there and she wasn't. She was off with COVID. And then when I went into labour with, my midwife appointments, I was talking to the woman about who I, this lovely midwife and she was like, I know her.

35:57and I was like oh couldn't you find out her schedule and she was like I couldn't get her to message yeah so she messaged Matt on Instagram she made an Instagram and she messaged Matt and said these are the days I'm in for the next couple of weeks so I said to Matt that's great that's brilliant we know going to labour on Sunday night I phoned up well it's funny because my plug came out on the Friday Matt was at poker with his friends and I was like you better come home you better come home she was on annual leave so I'm thinking she can't happen tonight it just can't and it hung on till Sunday and that was her day back and I phoned and I said oh it's it's Lacey and she said oh hello love it's me and I was like oh you're there she said what I said what time do you finish and she was like uh quarter to nine in the morning I said oh we'll be done by then I'll come in in a couple of hours and I did and I come in and I had the same lady in the same pool that I had Dusty in.

36:56I know, and I just love her. And she comes around for coffee now. Oh! I know. Because I just think, to me, she's such a special person. She brought two out of the three children into this world safely. And I will laugh because she spent the whole birth trying to get into her iPad. She was like, I can't remember the bloody passcode. And I was like, I need to push. And she was like, no, you don't. I said, I do. And she was like, oh, no. She said, I heard her say to my mum, that's not a head. That's, I think it's just mucus. And I said, no, it's a head. And she went, all right, all right. Bump, out.

37:34She was like, you were right, it was a head. So did you have your mum with you in every single one? Not Trilby, because that was COVID. Of course. So Matt was there. Matt was allowed in, and then he had to go two hours later. What was that like, giving birth in COVID? And also, during your pregnancy, things would have changed a lot in terms of guidelines and what each trust was saying. I wanted a home birth with Trilby, but you couldn't have one because it was COVID. You had to be tested when you got into the hospital. Matt was tested. He had to go two hours after I'd given birth. And because Trilby was premature, he was taken to ICU.

38:13And because Matt had been in the room to say goodbye to him before he left, I couldn't go in for 24 hours. Oh, my gosh. So it was really strange. We spent sort of five days on different floors and then a little tiny baby had a cough and they weren't sure if it was COVID, so I wasn't allowed in. So I just looked him through a window. Oh, my gosh. I know. And it was really strange. And strange for Matt because he wasn't even allowed in the hospital. I can't even imagine what that would be like. It was really odd. really odd because I just thought that's my baby, but I can't touch him. And obviously you can't get...

38:54And he had wires everywhere, and you just want to sit there and be as close as you can, and I just wasn't allowed in. It was really odd. And obviously you can't even have any sort of relationship or proper chats with the nurses that are looking after them in case... No. They would just sort of put their thumb up and say, it's OK, I've had three ounces, you know just sort of talk through it was a really weird and the hospital was so dead I mean there was because normally you'd have visitors and you could sort of hear that buzz and it wasn't it was like a ghost town how did you keep yourself occupied during that time?

39:30well I actually thought do you know what I'm going to go to sleep really? because I'm not going to get any sleep and my god I was right I thought I might as well go to sleep and then that way at least I can go into this when we can leave with some energy because I had him at three in the morning so I'd lost a whole night's sleep anyway. So I went to sleep and then after that I was just sort of sitting there thinking, I don't really know what to do. Like, he's up there. It was sort of really... And then I thought, do I go home? And I thought, I can't go home and leave him here. I can't be in a different building to him.

40:10That must be really difficult. there was a lady in there actually who had a baby at 24 weeks and she had a pocket in her hoodie and the baby would sit in her pocket he was no bigger than a knife she used to drive there an hour every day sit with him all day and then drive back oh my goodness yeah and he looked ridiculous in there Trill because all these babies were like 3 pounds yeah and he was this 6 pound premature thank god he was premature otherwise he could have been a 10 pounder I just don't really think about that time, though, for those parents and for you to kind of have your child in a special care unit and not even be able to talk to each other, really, for fear of if anyone's got COVID or, you know.

40:54It was really quite lonely, actually. Yeah. And then when you came home, there was no, you know, they come round the next day. Oh, yeah. You had to go to them. Right. So that was weird. It's like I've just given birth and then I've got to drive. I've got to get in the car, take, you know. Thankfully, I was the second time and had a lovely birth. But if you'd had a C-section or, you know, a really difficult birth or you were a first-time mum or just a scared mum, you know, to get in the car the day after and drive there for someone to check them was odd. And, you know, I remember I've got scales at home because you had to weigh them yourself.

41:37they showed you on Zoom how to plot a chart out you did it all yourself I can't imagine that as a first time mum as well I mean as a first time mum I'd have been terrified but I had sort of a little bit of confidence by the time because she was such an easy baby she was whatever it said in a book a baby was going to do that's what Dusty did and then I got him and I was like oh so you're not going to drink milk You're just going to cry all day. Turned out he was dairy intolerant. And that's why. And once he changed his milk, he was like a different baby. But he didn't do anything that she was going to do.

42:17I remember thinking, oh, my God, I stood at the window every day because my mum works in a bank, so she still went to work. Right. And I just used to wait at the window for, like, thinking, oh, God, come on, Mum. I don't know what to do. He doesn't stop crying. That's so hard. And it was February and it was cold. And by the time he'd put the coat on and then the foot muffing and then you'd put your coat on and your hat and everything and got out the door, you'd think, oh, God, it's supposed to have a bottle now. Back in you go. And in the end, I ended up just wrapping him up and leaving him on the patio to go to sleep.

42:52That's the only way to go to sleep. I mean, that's what Tom's nan tells us that she used to do with all the kids. Yeah. That's what my nan used to do, put him outside. Yeah. And I did and it worked. Yeah. And I think that's what the Swedish do, isn't it? They'd like, you know, they open all the windows before bed and make it all cool in there. Well, because there is that thing, isn't there? Your body has to actually be around 16 degrees for the, there's some sort of like cortisol levels to go down, which actually means that you get a deeper sleep. Oh. I've heard this, I've heard this. What was Trilby's birth like compared to Dusty and Gypsy?

43:27Because obviously they were both water. Yes. He was, well, it's funny. I always had this thing. I thought, it never made sense to me to lay on your back because you've got to get up a hill. You know why we do lay on our backs? Why? It was a king who wanted to see his son, I think, being born but didn't want to lower himself to the ground so that he could see. So he wanted to be the first one to see his baby come into the world so he made the woman, his partner, or the lady, I don't know if they were together, get on her back so that he could see it in a civilised manner. So nothing to do with actual birthing.

44:00No, because it doesn't make sense. You've got to get up that hill. Yeah. So it always made sense to sort of be... Squatting would be much better. Gravity. Yeah. Give us a hand. Yeah. So, and I just thought, don't sit down. If I keep moving, then surely they've got to move. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they'll just come down quicker. So I marched and they had me strapped up to the machines. They were checking his bits and bobs and whatever. And I just marched on the spot and I thought, well, this will make him come quicker. So had your water broke? Yeah, with Trilby. I went to go to bed and it went poosh.

44:33So you knew you were in labour, but you knew you was only safe six weeks. I thought that only happened in movies. I didn't realise it was like that much water. I've never had a proper gush like that. Oh, my God, it's a lot. Really? You need to get a mop. Yeah. It's literally like a bottle, a litre bottle. It was crazy. And I remember going to bed thinking, oh, no, I'm not tonight. I'm so tired. And then I laid in the bed and I thought, oh, I don't want to have a dry birth. That sounds awful. I'd better phone them. A dry birth! I just thought, I should go, really. I should phone the hospital. And, yeah, so I just kept marching and I said, I need to push now.

45:15And that was it. And then I pushed and he came out. It's definitely less painful in the water. Really? Yeah. Oh, yeah, my first wasn't in water. The other two were in water. Yeah, I'd agree with that. Yeah. And I just think you're weightless in the water. Or the whole dry birth thing. Yeah. A wet birth is much better. Definitely. Preferred, yeah. Well, did you end up being on your back? No, on my knees, yeah. But I remember them saying, it's a boy, and I was like, huh? No. It must have been so weird for you. I was like, can you check again? And they said, it's definitely a boy, and I was thinking, oh, God, a boy?

45:52What do you do with a boy? Oh, my God. And I was like, oh, my God. And my nan was over the moon, as you can imagine. and he to this day is her favourite. She has no qualms about telling everyone. I'm lucky because I have really quick birth so I can sit here and bang on about how lovely it is to give birth. They were quick. But you also had a really positive outlook on birth before you even think about it. And I think, especially when I had gypsy, I thought, right, I've done this before. I'm in the same position I was in. I'm on my knees, I'm in the water. So, and I remember saying, she said to me, just relax your shoulders and I thought okay relax your shoulders relax and when I did weirdly I could feel her moving down and I thought okay right if I just relax she'll come out quicker so you didn't do any hypnobirthing or anything like that no I was working I didn't have time for that and I hate reading so I didn't read a book I just thought I know what to do my mum did it I'll do what my mum did they're all fine but I guess it is that thing though if you say about books and stuff have we turned something that is super like extremely natural and you know our bodies are designed to do have we turned it into an academic subject by having courses and books and things like that whereas actually to a certain extent you should just trust your body to and breathe so we can do what it does maybe I mean listen I have my mum I can phone my mum and say oh my god there's a rash what is it put a glass on it, nothing.

47:23Okay, thanks, bye. You know, not everybody has that. Not everybody has seen what I've seen. Not everybody had a little sister at 13. You know, I'd already changed the nappies and, you know, I knew sort of what to do. I think there's a certain amount of you that you have to follow your gut. Yeah. And then, you know, my sister has to follow a book. She has to. Really? For weaning, for sleeping. She can't just go with the flow. Sometimes it's that little bit of extra comfort, isn't it? It is. You take the guidelines and you kind of fly in your own way. Exactly. And that's how she does it. And I just sort of think, well, let's hope for the best.

48:04I'm like that with life in general. Yeah. Well, let's talk about work because you did work throughout your pregnancies. You like to stay at work for as long as possible. Yeah. Because I just think, well, it's actually harder being at home. Yeah. You know, if you're at home, I've got to bend down, pick all the LOL dolls up from the floor and the Lego. If you're at work, you don't have to bend down to doing that stuff. You don't have to sit down. And your tea's hot and you can go to the toilet on your own. So actually, it's easy as someone gets you a chair at home. They don't even look at you. They don't care.

48:39Mum, mum. You know, so I just thought I'll stay there as long as possible. Nice. Was there lots of stuff to help you hide your bump in scenes? There was the first two pregnancies they did, and then I think by the third one they just gave up. Because obviously we had the live, so it was never going to match. So I just feel like I saw a couple of bits, and I thought, well, I clearly look pregnant on the telly. They'd given up. And I remember saying to one director, I was wearing a red kimono, and I said, Miguel, you can see my bump. And he was like, you're pregnant? I was like, seven months pregnant.

49:15He was like, I didn't know. And I was like, oh, well. But no, it went out. And I think we were just sort of turning a blind eye to it come the third time. So with those two, the first two, how long did you have off the other side? When I had Dusty, I took nine months and that ended up being a year because of COVID. And then I had, I think we went into lockdown when she was about. So you would have been pregnant when you went back. I went back pregnant. I know, imagine that phone call. I phoned Kate Oates and I was like, I don't really know how to say this. And she was like, don't worry, I know what you're going to say.

49:54And she was lovely. But I felt like I was taking the mick if I took too long off. So I only had, I had trouble in the February and I went back in the August. What's that? Well, I hadn't actually, I had one more week of work and I remember filming on the Tuesday. I said, Rich, you're mad, leaving my stuff till Friday. And he was like, I know, I know. I said, you know I'm having this baby tonight. He was so low, I knew he was coming. You know when you just know. Like I felt like he was so low. I said, you know, he'll come tonight. And he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Lo and behold, he did come on Tuesday.

50:38So I text Richard after I'd given birth. I said, don't worry, I'll be in next week. just to film those last few scenes. So I went in for a morning just to finish. I mean, what was that like? I mean, that was... Having two little... That was mad. Two under 17 months, you're still, you know, you've given birth. I know, but I'd had that lovely sleep because I couldn't go... Well, I guess in some ways, did it keep your mind occupied? Well, yes, because I, you know, I have got a village around me. I know you do, but there's also the physical and the emotional impact. And it was just a morning and it was strange.

51:17I have to say it was strange. You know, when I went back with Gypsy, it was easier. There was a, one, she was easy. Yeah. She is an easy baby. I'll regret saying that at some point. As it stands today. She's been easy. Yeah, it was only a morning where this time I had a purpose. I had a reason. Well, I wonder if, because with the other two, I know that you had to go back after Trilby because of that scene, but that was something that you hadn't sort of pre-planned, right? No. That was just something that happened. And that was my choice. I wanted to make sure that story was finished properly. Yeah, because then you think about everyone else's craft.

52:00Exactly, yeah. stuff but with gypsy you stepped away knowing that you were going to be back when your baby was four weeks old or you know around yeah what was that like it was weird because i'd i had gone up to my boss to tell him i was pregnant and um we obviously we knew it was the 40th we didn't know what it was about so i said i'm pregnant and he sort of went a bit green and i thought that's a funny reaction it's not yours don't worry about it I just thought okay um I was like but listen whatever you're doing for the live I want to be a part of it I missed the last one and I missed the one before that so I was like I want you know I loved doing the 25th I really enjoyed it I said I want to be a part of it thinking you know I I had an inkling that there was going to be a wedding and I thought I'll be in the Vic, you know, just be in the background of that.

52:59So I was like, I want to be in it. And he was like, are you sure? And I was like, yes, yes, I want to be in it. You know, it's the end of February. If it's live, I'll be fine. If not, we would have shot it before anyway. And at that point, I don't think they decided whether it was going to be live or not. So he was like, I'll let you know. Do you think they already knew the sort of storyline that they were? I think they did, which was why he went a bit green. which also means though that certainly the live and then the episodes that you would have filmed while pregnant that would go out afterwards that's a very emotional journey for your character to be on and for you to be on whilst either heavily pregnant or just giving birth it was hard because obviously me and James are really close we're like brother and sister so I didn't see that coming so it was I felt filming all the stuff after the live which we shot before the live I felt like he had died it was a really odd feeling but I guess that's a double thing as well because you're knowing that that's saying goodbye to your partnership on the show so there is a grieving process within that.

54:08It was hard, it was like you know every tear that came out my eye was a genuine sadness, in fact I didn't rehearse any of that. I physically couldn't speak. I actually, the day after James phoned me to say that they'd decided that that's, that's, you know, between them, that's what was going to happen to Martin. I was like, beside myself. I, yeah, I went into work the next day, I said, do I need to be here? I couldn't speak. I couldn't believe that, you know, he'd, he wanted to go that way, and that there and letting him go that way. I wasn't acting. I was genuinely sad. I couldn't rehearse because I just didn't, you know, I couldn't do it.

54:52I couldn't speak. I could barely say the lines. It was weird because I spent, I guess, the end of my pregnancy really sad. I guess also your hormones are all over the place as well. So I don't know. It's an odd thing to do. Now I look back, it's a really strange thing to do. But I think that is also acting. I mean, it's an odd job anyway, isn't it? You have to go to places. And I don't really know how to do it unless I go there. Yeah. And I guess I was there without wanting to be there. I was already there. I mean, me and James spent a long time sort of not even being able to look at each other.

55:31I did scenes where I didn't even look at him. No. And I thought, I can't. I don't. I'm going to cry. I cried from, you know, September onwards. did it feel quite surreal then coming back after after Gypsy was born and filming that live episode and knowing that you've filmed all the bit that comes afterwards you've almost said your goodbye but this is the real one yeah it's funny because I'd sort of decided in my head that it wasn't happening so that was my coping mechanism it's not happening and then come the live I was in this amazing baby bubble I was at home not often at home you know what it's like and I just, I was loving it and then I got to go back and do this thing that I don't want to do because I don't want to say goodbye that I so wanted to be a part of.

56:20Every single time I have said that scene, I haven't been able to, you know, I haven't been able to control my emotion. Really? And then on the night, nothing, nothing came. Really? It was so strange. It was like my body was in denial. Knocked it, yeah. And like, you're not, this is not the last time you two are doing this scene together. It's not the last time. I just, nothing came. You know, when you, I don't know if you've ever been there. Body is amazing. Felt nothing. Yeah. I finished a show last week and some of my castmates, they gave me this amazing book that they'd made. And they were crying giving it to me.

56:58They gave it to me on the Saturday. I was dry. And usually I would have wept. I took until the Monday to sit and read it. and then I was properly sobbing. I had a point yesterday where I had to, I clung to the greenhouse wall and had a proper sob. Like, it just fits for you. But I do think your body goes into survival mode with things like that. 100%. You know, even with acting, where you kind of got to draw on things, it was just like, nah. So I totally understand that. It was the weirdest thing I've ever experienced. Yeah. How can I be, I mean, my heart hurt. That's how sad I was. The whole week rehearsing that.

57:34And then come the night, I knew all the lines. Yeah. I don't know how, with that brain, that baby brain, I don't know how. I kept thinking, just don't muck it up, place. It's this last ever scene. Don't muck it up, don't muck it up. And I didn't, but I was numb. And I was never like, I've never read that scene without crying, let alone said it out loud. It was the strangest thing. So after Live, how has it been the last 11 weeks? Are you back in working? What is that balance now? So I've just finished tying up all the sort of loose ends and now I've got a nice chunk of time off, which is lovely.

58:14So I'm off with the kids for Easter and just little things. Like I want to, you know, I can go and read a book to his class at pick up. Yeah. Whereas because of the way the schedule works there, you can't always guarantee you're going to make it anywhere. Sports day, nativities, whatever. So it's been nice to be able to say, yes, I will be there to read that book. Yeah. And I did get laughed at by a load of four-year-olds. Did you? It was funny. The teacher said, can you bring Gypsy in? We're learning about babies. And I thought, since when has show and tell been with actual real things? Normally you don't just take a doll.

58:50Anyway, she did cry. So out she went. But, yeah, it's been really nice to be at home because obviously we moved and, you know, I've dreamt of this house my whole life. Well, talk to me about the move, because as a family now, you've said you're on a farm. Yes, we've got a little farm. Growing up, did you have, like, green spaces around you? Was that something that you always just wanted? No. No, I mean, we always had a garden, and my sister was a real animal person, and I was a bit like, ugh. You know, I like dogs, but I wasn't interested. They were into horses, both my sisters, and I just wasn't.

59:28I mean, we used to pick her up and put her in a bin bag in the boot, because she's done. I was like, she's not sitting in the front. she stinks and now I'm out there with my straw and mucking out my chickens so has motherhood been what you thought it would be? it's better really? yeah it's better it's amazing watching these tiny little people turn into small versions of you and then you look and think oh my god I say that all your best and your worst bits yes real big reflection yes and it is, they are like sponges and it fascinates me. I love watching them grow as much as I don't want them to grow.

1:00:10I don't want them to get bigger because they're just lovely. I mean, don't get me wrong, they're, you know, they're hard work, but they're lovely. Yeah. And it's chaos, but the best possible chaos. I love it. I don't know what I would do. Yeah. You know, even if they stay at my mum's, we're like, hmm, we should go out for dinner, but can't be bothered. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Might as well go to bed. But sleep, it's fine. Go to sleep only you're not going to have to get up. Lacey, if you could write a letter on motherhood, who would it be to and what would you say? I would probably write it to my mum.

1:00:45Would you? Yeah. What would you say? I would just, I guess, let her know how much she has taught me, even now, like I'm 37 now and she's still, I just think she's amazing. She's my favourite person in the whole world. Really? Yeah. I love her. She loves me. She loves my children like I love my children. And I just think that's amazing how you can do that. I love that so much. She's just lovely. Everything she has taught me, everything I know has come from her, her work ethic, how she raised us. you know every I'm I've tried to become a mini version of my mum she's just much kinder she's just she's lovely my mum we end the podcast with you completing three sentences the first one is being a mum means what does it mean being a mum well it means everything I mean I feel like I didn't realise what my purpose was and now I have them I now know what it was Since having children I?

1:02:01I learned to take the small moments that you get because they are golden they are golden they really are we were saying earlier about 3 is the magic number it totally is but it's those pockets where everything falls into place that makes it so wonderful But how wonderful are those little pockets? Yeah. Before, you just think, oh, it's an hour. Now it's an hour. Oh, my God, it's a whole hour. And it's nice because it's actually made me appreciate me a little bit more. Really? Because I think in that hour, I'm going to do something for me. Yeah. And I probably wouldn't do that. Yeah. If I didn't have them.

1:02:40I'd be doing something for someone else. Yeah, absolutely. And finally, I'm happy when? I'm happy when I'm at home and my children are rolling in mud and finding worms and on their bikes that's the whole point of living there exactly that is for them to be hanging out of trees rolling around in mud I love it I love the chaos of it that's what they should be doing Lacey thank you so much thank you for having me

1:03:19IDR