Natalie Cassidy beyond Albert Square: grief, body image, and motherhood

0:28I love podcasting. in her twenties, whatever. So it is an absolute pleasure to have her here. She has two daughters. It is Natalie Cassidy. Aw. Hello. Hello, how are you? It must feel really weird that everyone does have this ease with you or this feeling of knowing you. Is it a nice thing? Is it a bit disarming? No, it's an honour. Yeah. And I really love it. And like you say, we're kind of similar ages. Yeah. And anyone I meet in their 40s, you know, they always say, I've grown up with you and I just feel like you're my mate. Yeah. And I love that because it sort of straight away cuts out the crap.

1:02Yeah. It cuts out the getting to know you almost because I'm just a very open book, I think. People feel like they know me, so I like that. There is an ease that comes with it, right? You can start asking them questions and they already feel at ease with you. Yeah, absolutely. And I think because I'm always very honest in whatever I do, people know that there's no rubbish there. Yeah. So people feel quite at ease straight away, I think, because I don't think I'm anything special just because I've been on the telly. Yeah, yeah. And that's, oh, absolutely, the area in which you grew up with the people that you grew up with as well.

1:39Yeah. You know, I know that family is everything to you. Everything. This is my whole life. And that's because you've now ventured into a podcast as well. Yes. We were just talking about life with Nat. Yeah. And how it is you and your family. It is. You know, I always have the odd guest on. Yeah. And the listeners really go, oh, that was OK, but when's Tony on? And I just love that they've really, they love the family vibe. And I think especially with the relationship between myself and my nieces. Yeah, it's really special. Because my brother's 60. Yeah. And they're like my sisters, but best mates as well.

2:12And it's, you know, a really special dynamic that we've got. I love hearing the chats that you have together because it's beyond, it's not just friends and it's not a mother-daughter. You know what I mean? Yeah. it's women just really chatting together. Absolutely, yeah. In a really open way. And also encouraging each other to kind of be open. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we do have, you know, because we love each other so dearly, we can really go for each other as well, you know. We really wind each other up or, you know, I say to Marie, you're so grumpy and we call her Eeyore.

2:45But, you know, it's all in jest because we can, because we love each other that much. So we're not scared to sort of, you know, pick a little fight every now and again as well, which is quite funny. Talk to me about the new book because you've written, I'm going to say an autobiography, it is an autobiography, it's about your life, called Happy Days. But for me, I feel like it's an autobiography but with a bit of a twist. I'm pleased you said that. Are you? Yeah, very much so. Because the thought of doing it, it's sort of been there for a few years, you know, and I was toying with it and I thought, what can I do to make it?

3:16And timing is everything. So maybe when you're coming at this part of your life where you've said goodbye to EastEnders, for now. Yeah. So to kind of honour those decades and kind of sit down and write now, that feels like a really nice time to stop and do it. It feels like... Someone described it to me the other day after they'd read the book. They said it feels like a really lovely long goodbye to EastEnders. And I think it's true. And that has not been done intentionally, but it's such a huge part of my life that it's just dotted through the book entirely, you know, just about me leaving and the great times and the women that I work with and the family that is there.

3:58You know, it's ingrained in me. You know, I think if you cut me open, I'd have the EastEnders sign running through my veins, you know. It's just, it's there. And, you know, I adore it and love it. But it was really time to go, is this all? And I think turning 40, it's a cliche, but I think you do. I think you start thinking, okay, half my life, please God, is done. and am I going to just do the same thing again for the next 40 years? Please, God. I have to say that because we're lucky to be here every day. But, yeah, I thought, no, let's step out, be brave. And I think the book was the first sort of big thing for me, deep breath and think, right, come on, don't be a baby.

4:38Let's get some thoughts down on paper. But the way that you've written it, first of all, it's done by the days of the week. Yes. So each day has sort of a section, I guess. Yeah. But it's also you weave in anecdotes, You weave in stories about EastEnders, about family life, about your upbringing, but with history and knowledge. And that's what makes it so fascinating. Well, I love facts. Yeah. A bit of an autodidact. I love thinking, well, where did that come from or what was that? And etymology and all of those things. It's like Susie Dent. Exactly. That's it. I love Susie's book. You know, I love all of that.

5:15And I loved Claudia Winkleman's book, Quite. And that was quite. And so I took all of this inspiration and I thought, right, what I want to do. and I love Sandy Toxvix where she was on the bus route and I thought I want mine to be different and I love days of the week and I always say and I always have happy Monday, happy Tuesday so I thought well this is good and then I thought how can I do it and I started thinking about a Monday and my mum died on a Monday my mum passed away on a Monday but I had my first date with the love of my life on a Monday and I thought well this is really interesting because actually I can tell different stories about different times in my life but through the days of the week.

5:51So that's where it started from. How has it been writing it? Amazing. How was it? Yeah, it was amazing. I loved it. It was quite tough at times because I've been through a lot of grief and I lost my dad just over four years ago now, which is crazy because it feels like yesterday and 100 years ago. You know what grief's like. But, yeah, it's really helped me. It's been very, a little bit of therapy for me because I've always felt a lot of guilt about my mum passing away when I was 19 and that mother thing coming back to the pod. I was never around at that time as a teenager and I felt awful guilt about losing her at a time where she wasn't important in my life.

6:34And writing about that, coming to terms with that and actually going, you know what, that's what every teenager's like. It was just unlucky that I lost her at that time. And unlucky in the fact that your older siblings were so much older, Your brothers were so much older, so they'd done their going away and they'd come back. And I talk about that within the book because they were fantastic. And they said, you can't feel like this. We did exactly what you did, but we had time to come back. So, yeah, it's been brilliant, really, to write it. And also figuring out exactly how you feel about it and putting it down into words.

7:05Yeah. I feel like the tricky bit, actually, Nat, is now. Because you've really thought about the words that you put in this book. You've thought about how you articulate it. You've thought about what you want to share. Yes. And all of a sudden you're in promo and you're having to talk about things in a more controlled environment. You're so right because it's actually your little baby. You're writing it in your little room. And you're safe. And it's sort of safe and it's private almost. It's like a diary that you're writing and then it sort of goes out into the world now. And I'm like, oh, my God.

7:34I've got to talk about all the things that I wrote down. Exactly that. And sometimes I think when you do write something like this, you can look back at it and go, oh, I've shared that. I've shared that. And you can feel proud and happy that you've shared it. You want to talk about your mum and dad. Yeah. You know, but it's that thing of you've put your heart out there. I have put my heart out there. I have made some decisions within it. I'm not a poor me person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Poor me or what's happened to me and it's terrible. And you've been respectful of certain areas of your life that, you know.

8:01Very much, very much. I wanted to be respectful. My daughters are my daughters. It was really important for me that, you know, I did have a relationship that wasn't very good, but out of that came my Eliza, who's my pride and joy. I didn't want to talk about that part of my life in detail because for me that's over and gone and thank goodness, you know, it's just everything's great now. And I just wanted it to be a little bit of joy for people. Yeah, I absolutely think that it is. Thank you. Let's go back to your childhood. Yeah. Talk to me about your mum and dad, your brothers. What was life like growing up?

8:33Because you were brought up in London. I was in Islington, yeah. Proper London. Not far, proper London. North London, Essex Road. I came along when my brothers were 15 and 18. My mum was 44, my dad was 46. What was the general reaction? Have they talked to you about that? The reaction was hilarious. I talk about it within the book. My brothers got up one day and I think my dad was giving them a lift somewhere. And he said, sons, listen, I've got something to tell you. We're going to have another little mouth to feed. And they both looked at me and went, are we finally getting a dog? I said, no, we're going to have a baby.

9:11And my brother Tony says, I was disgusted. I couldn't believe it. Especially at those ages. I mean, exactly what has happened for you to be in the world. But, you know, I came along and I was very loved and it was like I had three dads, you know. That's amazing. It was. But growing up, really, because David got married at 18, he was away with Linda. And then Tony was just four or five years later and then he obviously fled. So you had your mum and dad to yourself. Yeah, I did. And I was a bit of a single sort of solo child, really, growing up. Because you've always been described as quite an old soul.

9:48Yeah, I am, yeah. Do you reckon your mum and dad, having their focus in that way, being that little bit older by that point, do you reckon that was part of that? Oh, very much so, because I was surrounded by adults all the time. And even then, I got the part in EastEnders at 10. And again, you're surrounded by adultery in an adult world. That's a massive switch in childhood. Huge. I know you were already acting, you were already going to Anishaz. Yeah. That's a huge shift to suddenly be on that very, I don't know, prestigious set. Yeah, I mean, at the time. With those major responsibilities. As you say at the time, you know, television was very different than it is now.

10:25And it was huge. It was four channels. I think, was it still four channels then? I feel like, I feel like just five came. No, I think four came out in the 80s. So it was, you know, it wasn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, five was out much later. Yeah. Yeah, it was four channels, yeah. So that's what we watched. The majority of people saw your face a few times a week. Absolutely. And that's why people feel like they've known me because they've grown up with me. And they mean well, people mean well. But they'll come up and say, oh, you look actually all right in real life. But they say it as a compliment because Sonia was so dowdy.

11:01They say, oh, you're not as fat as you are on the telly. and I kind of go yeah thank you that was my problem when Instagram when stories started coming out because I was like everyone suddenly you know you can't be wearing makeup every day no I don't care so I don't care at all no and my thing about that is I'd rather be on the internet not wearing any makeup and then go out and people be like oh you look better there you go then the other way around absolutely we are doing it right we're doing it right I think so yeah not like casting rough in real life It's all glam on there, on the Insta. Yeah, don't bother with filters or anything like that.

11:39It's low, I think, expectations. I don't. I've never put a filter on. Never. I cannot care less. No, no. And people really love it. They love us being real. I think so. They really do. It's a pocket. They wake up and they think, those people who are in the public eye are like us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we have quite a lot of similarities, actually. Yeah, I do, I do. So growing up, obviously you're super busy career-wise, but did you ever look to what your own family life would be if you wanted to be a mum? No, not really. I think the urge to be a mum came after losing my mum. Really? Yeah, not that early, 19, but kind of through those years and 24, 25, and I talk about it honestly, like you say in the book and I do open up to it, that I feel now I can honestly look back and think since mum died at that 19 point, up until around 30 when I met Mark.

12:30Those years were turbulent. And I was in a place where I was surrounded with people because I didn't want to be on my own. They weren't choices that should have... They weren't great people. And that's quite a harsh thing to say. But friends, choices, you know, partners, that sort of thing. And the same time that your mum died, your dad then moved away as well. He went to Lincolnshire. He went to Lincolnshire. So, you know, you had your older brothers around, but they've got their own lives. They've got their lives, families. sudden like you are quite isolated but again in this world where we know what it was like back then 20 whatever years ago where you know the the clubs all that stuff everyone you know if you could get in somewhere if you could get other people in somewhere everyone's your best mate that's right but they're not really no no and they're the people that you hang around with and yeah yeah i just think that's why now you know it's all gone full circle and just that's why oh, my family just mean everything to me.

13:25Because you can just trust your family so much. But then there's also something really gorgeous about that. And that's anyone who's listening who might feel quite isolated to kind of go, actually, no, you can build that family back. Do you know what I mean? You can. You can build it back. This isn't going to be a forever. And I would also say to anybody who is lonely and perhaps doesn't have any family around them, because that happens a lot, just try and not, just make those choices. is really think about who is around you. Because sometimes it is better to be on your own than be with the wrong people and be patient.

14:00And, you know, you'll know in your gut when it's the right people. You know, I can count my girlfriends on one hand and I've been so busy of late since leaving EastEnders. I haven't seen anybody. And it's those people that they just text and say, you're doing brilliant, don't worry, see you soon. There's no moaning or, you know, those friends, those sort of drainers. They feel like you need to. Sorry, sorry, I'm not around. Sorry, I'm not around. You know, I don't need to do any of that. And that's when you know your best mates are. Yeah. Reading the book, I did find it fascinating that actually it's only looking back that you can realise how much your grief, how you didn't really deal with it at all.

14:37No. But at that time, at 19, you could absolutely say, I'm fine. Absolutely. Just got on with it. Yeah. I had that weight, went straight back into work and that was it. You know, I was just really, really busy. Do you feel like work in some way helps you process those big things in life? It certainly made me process. My mum died in the May and in the October we were filming Christmas and Jamie Mitchell, back in the day, lovely Jack Ryder, he decided to leave. Your first crush. Did you have his pillow? No, I had his post-it. Did you have a pillow? No, I didn't have a pillow, but I know people that had a Jack Ryder pillow.

15:15You didn't need to. Yeah, no, I definitely did. That would have been weird when he came round. Just got a pillow of you. But he decided to leave the show, which was, again, really devastating for me because we were really close, like we were proper soulmates, brother and sister, like really close. The story that was told was Jamie died in hospital and it was Christmas Day. So in that October, after losing mum, I was sort of doing these really heartfelt scenes around a hospital bed sobbing. And I look back and think that was all real. You know, that was real guttural grief. So when you started thinking about Ashley, I'd quite like to be a mum.

15:50Yeah. Did you have to think ahead of how that would work career-wise? Did you worry about it? I didn't think about it. Eliza just came along. It was spoken about and planned, but she just made everything better. How did you feel when you found out you were pregnant? Yeah, I was elated. It was brilliant, but it was a very difficult time. I was, again, quite isolated, if you like, and with the help of my family. I was very, very fortunate to have a lot of support around me. And it took a few years and then I was sort of free and able to crack on just me and Eliza. It's hard, isn't it? Because I know that we also don't want to delve into the things that are going on around that.

16:30But early motherhood, especially to your first, can feel isolating in itself. Very much so. But I was also putting on a bit of a show as well. Yeah. And you had a TV show at the time as well, didn't you? That must have been so hard to be filming that. No, it was hell on earth. It was, again, just decisions. You need money. You say yes to things. And suddenly you're in a situation where you're doing this programme and it's just like the worst relationship of your life. Yeah. Yeah, it was tough. But obviously you also tried to put that front on because you want everyone to feel like Sonia Fowler's had a happy ending.

17:06Do you know what I mean? Even though it's your life. Absolutely. But you want the audience or the fans to feel like, don't worry, guys, I'm all right. But everyone, again, sticks by you. And even people who watch that show said it didn't really sit right. So people just know you, you know, it's interesting. I feel like now that people are looking back at those types of shows, if people started re-looking at that now, how do they dissect it? Absolutely. So let's focus on you and Eliza. Yeah. What was your pregnancy like? I had a lovely pregnancy. Did you? I was very large. I lived on chicken, mayonnaise and lettuce baguettes.

17:43Nice. That's all I fancied. I like that. With lashes of butter, ready-sorted crisps, loads of carbs, all white bread and toast. Yeah, and I ate loads of loads. I felt a bit sick at the beginning, I remember. But then, yeah, it was really good, really straightforward, up until the point she wouldn't come out. Oh, really? No, she would not come out. Went into hospital, started sort of to have pains and things, pessaries, drip, nothing. Nothing would get her out. I was in hospital in Welling for about three days in agony and they'd come in, I'd go, surely. And they'd go, you're two centimetres dilated.

18:21I can't be, I'm in so much pain. How had you felt about the birth before that point? I did hypnobirthing. I was really wanting kind of the whole lovely room with the water pour and all of that. I think it was, again, I just sort of, because there was so much going on outside of that, it didn't matter as long as she got there, you know. So I ended up having an emergency C-section. So out the sunroof she came. Yeah. Absolutely perfect. And that was it. I just had this bundle of joy. Did you feel like you could let go of the fact that you'd done hypnobirthing and that it had gone a different way?

18:56Do you feel like you could let go? Again, interestingly, it's a repeating pattern with my little brain. I don't think I dealt with it. So when I had Joni, it was a plan C. I said, I'm not going through that again. I had Joni and breastfeeding was a big thing for me. Oh, really? Because with Eliza, I did it for a little while, but there was so much going on, a lot of stress, it didn't work for long. I gave her a bit, but again, didn't deal with it. With Joni, I was desperate to breastfeed for quite a long time. You hear that so often, though, with mums trying to almost correct the wrongs. It's like, well, those things aren't wrongs.

19:33They're just what happened. No, no, no, it's what happened. But I was so desperate. And she kept losing weight and the midwife came around. I said, but I'm pumping. I was one of these ladies. Honestly, I would pump for two hours and get 10 mils. It just wasn't coming. And I did everything. I did the teas. Honestly, I can feel that on my nipples, just to say that. I know. I can sense the shape that they come out. Honestly. You know. But, yeah, I so wanted to. And I tried for about a month. And then I did sort of formula, a bit of a mixture. And in the end, she had formula. But I went into a real, I felt I was feeding her poison.

20:08Really? Yeah, I was so guilty. And, again, I think that stemmed, you know, those six years before I went through. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they're both brilliant and they're both happy and they're fine. Yeah. You know, my niece-in-law, Annalisa, she hasn't breastfed. and she felt a bit of guilt and I said, kids are fine. And I just think there's a lot about it. It's wonderful, the breastfeeding thing, if you can do it. Maria was like Daisy the cow. She was filling up bottles within 15 minutes. I was like, this is amazing. How is this possible? But also, isn't that amazing to see someone else doing it like that and going, well, my body doesn't do that.

20:44No, I know. And that's, you know, our bodies are different. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because I think it's so important to have those chats with other women in your life to kind of realise those differences. is. Actually, what you might have been, you know, struggling with, she might have been thriving with. But likewise, what you were thriving with, she might have been struggling with. Absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah. And my kids have always come first. Yeah. They're my life. I never feel like I'm missing out on things. Yeah. Which I think is a lovely thing to have when you have children. Yeah. I don't feel I'm missing out on holidays or I've never been on a holiday without them.

21:19I think we've had two nights away, Mark. can I in the 11 years. It doesn't sit right with me. Maybe now they're growing up, it will change. And Eliza now, of course, I'm not the most important person, that she's getting to that point which I was at. Mates, the school life, the boys, the fashion, the clothes, the hair, all of that is more important than being at home. And I kind of just want to be there when she needs me. How does it make you feel to have a child that's kind of starting that, pulling away from processing? It's hard, but because of what I went through, I think I'm handling it really well.

21:54And I don't want to make the mistakes that mum made, God rest her soul, because they were so strict with me. Really? It was such a strict house, a loving house, but they were older and it was just strict and they didn't want me to do anything. I lied a lot. Do you think that's also because you were the baby and a girl? Yeah, baby, girl, all of it, age. But I lied a lot. My mates' mums would lie for me because they felt sorry for me. And I don't want that with Eliza. And we talk and she talks to me and I've set boundaries, but yes, I'm starting to allow her to maybe get on the train. It's all petrifying, but I want to be different.

22:29I want her to trust me and I want her to be able to talk to me. I think it's important. But also, because of the job that you were doing when you were her age, you had so much responsibility and independence anyway. Yes. So it's very hard to kind of figure out how can you give that to Eliza, you know, but not in that work environment. Yeah, that's true. But I think the other thing that I don't think about, which is brilliant that you've just said that and that is honestly something I've never thought about. They did have a child that was on the telly. Yeah. So it must have been really petrifying letting me out.

22:59Yeah. You know, because people recognise me and I've never even thought about that. You've said, I listened to you on Ryland's podcast, the heckling that you get as well. Hey, where's your trumpet? Yeah. All the time. But as a kid, that must have, like for your mum and dad, like thinking about it in that way, I've not even thought about your mum and dad being there for those moments as well. Yeah, all out the window, shouting, where's Wellard, where's your trumpet? All the time. I mean, I still get a where's your trumpet at least. It's dwindling, but at least a couple of times a month. Does it get mentioned in every single thing that you do?

23:33Most scenes, yeah. Can you even play the trumpet? No, but I can get a tune out of it. I just give it a good blow and hope for the best, you know. Do you feel like you've just been reluctant to ever even try and have lessons? Because how good would it be if just at some point to shut everyone up, you got your trumpet out and you played a really great tune? I have thought if things go to its own, I can learn the trumpet and I can do weddings, bar mitzvahs, funerals. But I could. I could do little performances, the odd tune, and I think I'd be all right. I think I'd pay the bills. The important thing there, Nat, is you could.

24:06I could. You could. Hopefully we won't need to. But it's always good to have something in your back pocket. If you see it, you'll think, oh, bless her. She's fallen on hard times. so back to when Eliza was born how did you feel suddenly being a mum to this little newborn I really loved it you know it just made me feel whole it made me feel that I've got my I never felt lonely again let's put it that way I never felt lonely did it make you think about your mum at that time not really not really and as age has gone on and I have thought about mum a lot more. I just miss that time. And I think it's important, you know, I do talk, the book is joyful, but I do, it's so important to talk about grief and I miss her more and more.

24:51Yeah. You know, I missed her yesterday because it was Eliza's 15th and Joni's nine and, you know, I just said, oh, she would have absolutely loved my kids. She would have loved them to pieces. And I know she would have been around and she would have been much older, but she would have loved it. Yeah. Yeah. So life with you and Eliza, when it got down to just the two of you, what was that like, juggling motherhood and work? It was really hard, but I had a lovely nursery up the road. And at that time, my dad was in quite good health, actually. He was well, but he'd moved back from Lincolnshire to live quite close.

25:27So bless him, when I look back, he would pick her up from nursery sometimes. It was near his retirement flat that he was in. And he'd pick her up and have her for a little while if I was out for a bit. and then I ended up getting a kind of a home helper, a nanny to help me. And obviously I had my nieces around the corner and, you know, family were then close again, so that was really good. Talk to me about meeting Mark. Well, I met Mark just after I turned 30 and I'm nearly 31 and I went back to EastEnders. So I'd gone back, I'd been asked back and it was a perfect time. I'd done some lovely theatre, I'd been on lots, you know, done the reality stuff and not a lot was going on and then I got this call out of the blue to say we'd love to have you back.

26:12So it was perfect. So I went back and Patsy was there, who plays Bianca, and I was sat in the Vic doing a scene and most of the cameramen there are older. Okay. That's not being rude. They're all older and I love them to death and known them all my life, but they are much older. Suddenly I saw this sort of young looking lad. Fresh blood. Yeah, I thought, oh, who's this? and I said to the fact, who's that handsome bloke over there? And she went, oh, let me introduce you, come over, you know. And we said hello and Mark, he's very, very shy. Yeah. He's not, once he gets to know someone, he's fine.

26:48But, you know, he's not a great massive social butterfly who can just talk to anyone like me. We're quite yin and yang. Anyway, we started sort of exchanging the odd word and then it was, you know, the odd conversation and you could just feel the little frisson, you know, you can just feel it, the little frisson between you. I'd go on set, all those things. And then, yeah, I got his name for Facebook because he is Mark with a C. This was confusing for you. Very, very confusing. Can't stalk someone when you don't know how their name spells. Absolutely. And who spells Mark with a C? Anyway, I finally found him, sent him a message on Facebook to say, oh, you know, it's been lovely chatting to you.

27:26I just thought I'd say hi. And he rang, I put my number, I said maybe drop me a text or whatever. And he rang me immediately. Did you drop me? I would have been like, ah! It was just the weirdest stuff. That is so weird. It's quite affronting. After these 10, 11 years, I know he loves a bloody phone conversation. To this day, he likes to chat. He loves to chat. Yeah, and we just started talking. We was on the phone for about an hour and that was it. And after the first date, we'd be chatting and he knew. I said, listen, I have Eliza. I can't go out all the time on my own. It's me and Eliza. He was absolutely fine with it.

28:02And he met her a little while later as mummy's friend, Marky, whatever. And that was it, you know. It wasn't long before he moved in. Yeah. And Eliza, you know, called him dad from quite early on. And yeah. Well, because there's a beautiful point in the book, actually, where when you're pregnant with Joanie, how people keep, you talk about how people keep saying to Mark about his first child and that actually really upset Mark. It is. It's like, it's not my first child, actually. Yeah. Mark has been there and loves her with all of his heart. I just feel like with him even saying that, I always have a thing about step-parents.

28:41Yeah, yeah. What a privilege it is to step into that role. If a parent or an adult does it in a way that is fully in, fully in, it's just such a beautiful thing. Yeah. And I really got a sense of how Mark has been with Eliza. Yeah. Just from that little background. His card, his birthday card yesterday. Well, I am a bit weird. I always buy two cards. Yeah. It's not a love mum or dad. I'll write mine and he'll write his. Yeah. Yeah, and she cried her eyes out yesterday. Did she? Yeah, because it was just such a heartfelt card, you know, and he means every word. Yeah. And I think it's a weird stage for dads at this age because they really get embarrassed by their dads and he's Mr.

29:19Annoying. Yeah. And it really aggravates her, babe, please don't let it hurt you. I know it's hard, but it's just that weird age. And I'm saying what everyone said to me, like she will come back, but we've got a lot we're in now. we're strapping in for a few years and then when you're out of it Jamie will be going through it I know don't

29:40don't but there must have been a point where even before meeting Mark sort of dating were you even thinking about dating and how you would navigate that not really not particularly no again it just happened very organically and it was work I can just say it's someone who gets this job and who's not fazed by what we do because it's a job. This is really perfect. And some people say don't go out with someone who's in the industry. But for me, it was completely the opposite. And also a different field of the industry. It is. Yeah. Behind the camera, it's very different, the production side of it and all of that.

30:18But I remember at work, we had it as a little secret at work quite a while. Again, which was quite exciting. Yeah. And I reckon we went, it was probably kind of 10 weeks or something. and we kept it secret. And I called a meeting with his boss. When I looked back, they must have thought, what on earth is she talking about? I said, I'd like to see this one, that one, that one. Do you mind? Can I have five minutes? And I just said, right, I want you to know, because it's not the etiquette at work. You shouldn't be dating people. And it wouldn't be me that got into trouble. It would be behind the scenes.

30:50Right, right. So I said, I just want you to know. It's lovely. It's serious. I don't want it to be frowned upon. I don't want his job to suffer or work to suffer. And I kind of made this sort of speech to the most, you know, the important people. They were like, OK, fine, all right. But, yeah, looking back, I thought they probably couldn't give a shit, actually. Well, I wonder, though, because I wonder if now that would have, like, HR might have had to have, you know, got involved and kind of made sure. I don't know. I don't know either. But, yeah, I just sort of wanted to put sign, seal and deliver it and say I don't want it to talk to, you know.

31:23It's not gossip. It's not, we're together. This is it. and that's what we're doing, so that's it. Talk to me about getting pregnant with Joni. Joni was born in August 2016. I remember talking to Mark about it and I remember laying in bed with him having a cuddle and saying, goodness me, when we have a baby, a mix of me and you, she's going to be an absolute character. And I look at him now when she's doing something, and I say, do you remember that? She's such a character. she's feral she's feral she's excitable she doesn't stop talking she's emotional she writes poems that come out of the blue she plays the piano she's a mum when she comes in from school she says I'm far too busy to do any spellings I've got Ted she has five babies who get in the pram she doesn't stop she doesn't stop all day writing in her little link book or whatever you do at your school, so sorry Joanie was too busy looking after the babies tonight to do her spelling.

32:26Yeah, I couldn't do the reading because she had a lot on. She's playing schools with her dolls, so sorry. But she's, yeah, she's a bundle of joy. And the pregnancy was really lovely. What was it like finding out you were pregnant? It was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I remember being quite inebriated over that Christmas before. OK. Mark tells the story quite well. He said, you were so drunk at one point that you were just pouring Prosecco on the table, missing the glass. but I'd not had that much to drink so he said you were all over the place so after this sort of Christmas and then I found out I was pregnant you feel so guilty you don't know you're like oh no but anyway that was that and then the pregnancy when we found out it was brilliant we were really excited and then going through the scans and things and wanted to make Eliza you know just absolutely she was so excited and then when we said would you want to find out the sex we said oh what I'd like you to do we come up with it I said, if you put it in an envelope for us.

33:23And Eliza told us, which was just so lovely. That's lovely. It was really lovely. Yeah, so she was going to be a big sister. How did she react when you told her? She was really pleased, really, really pleased. She was six, so she was into the dollies, you know. So, yeah, she was really pleased about it. Going through pregnancy this time around, did it maybe being in a home that felt very different from Eliza? Yeah, it was. Did it really highlight what you'd been through? Yes. Previously. Yeah, it did, yeah. Just because it was simple. Yeah. And normal and fun. And everything was just easy. Yeah.

34:02So, yeah, it did highlight it. It did. And then even the birth, you know, because I saw this consultant who was with me the last time round and he said, absolutely, have a plan, you know, the cervix is somewhere way back, don't worry, you know, all of that sort of stuff. So even having a date in the diary and being able to just pack and get ready. And Eliza was really excited. And I remember taking Eliza to a party the day before. Yeah. And having some pictures with her, thinking, oh, this is our last day on our own. It's a really big thing. It was really big. You know that, just that... And Mark was at work.

34:36He was filming Corrie in Manchester the day before. Had to travel back. Couldn't he have stayed on his tenders? Come on, Mark. I know. And, yeah, so he wasn't around. And I went to this party with her and thinking, God, after tomorrow, it's not going to be me and you anymore on our own. It's that thing of knowing that you have changed their life for forever. Yeah. That's the thing that gets me. Yeah, you're right. But in a good way. Fingers crossed. But then it's just that thing. It is in a good way, but just that recognising that shift for them in terms of responsibilities and... Just not having you to themselves.

35:10It's that sharing of time, you know? Yeah. I mean, I've only got two. and I still struggle and there's a six year gap so they do very different things but I like to have whether it's right or wrong probably because of what Eliza and I've been through I'm always a bit like, Joanie's fine and I'll be like we need a day on our own let's go and have a day together and again because she's the first I think she just deserves that Also because of the age gap I've heard you talking about how bedtimes whereas I'll get everyone up at the same time and then I will focus on the youngest and work my way through.

35:46So I'm still going to bed half an hour later. Yes, but by the time you do it. By the time I get to him, he's fannied around doing all sorts. So what time are you in bed? We all go up about half seven. And then in an ideal world, Max will be asleep by eight, then quarter past, half past, basically. About an hour. Sometimes it's the nine o 'clock, but now we've started senior school. We're so knackered. Yes. I'm just like, go to sleep, please. I cannot handle this. You need to sleep. But what you have, which I think is brilliant, is the fact that there is such an age gap that Joanie doesn't even question the fact that she goes up at her time.

36:21She has never... Liza... Thank goodness. I don't know what I've done, but I think just because it's always been that way, it's that routine, there has never been a, I want to stay up with my sister, ever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She will go to bed, when she goes to bed, has her bath, usually about eight now. Yeah. And her phone is down by the bread bin. Again, it's not argued. that comes down nine o 'clock it has over the birthday stuff probably you know how have you navigated that because obviously I think it's something that we've all been worried about for a while we've all been aware but only in the last year or so has more been spoken about it what the phone stuff yeah so you know for those parents who might have given their children phones when they started secondary school you know I had one when I was 13 because I was travelling into London and I think so in my mind it's not a bad thing to have a phone yeah But for the parents whose kids are 15, who might have, in those years where we weren't told anything, gone down a certain route.

37:15Absolutely. Well, now what do we do? I know. It's an experiment, isn't it? Yeah. I always say the same thing, and I bang on and bang on and bang on, and I say, listen, she got her phone in year eight, and that was purely down to an assembly, actually, where they were talking about phone safety, and they said, put your hand up if you've got a phone. And Eliza was the only one who didn't put... So it put huge pressure on her. so that's when I gave in I didn't want to give in at all but it was about her friends everyone around her having a go at her chastising her for not having one and I wish I would have held out I still wish I would have held out she has social media now it's all private Instagram is on my phone I can check her account it's linked to mine all the time you don't check it all the time I'm too busy doing my own but it's just that knowledge and it's there I would say to anybody really I read an article years ago and it was all about everybody from Silicon Valley and their children, no phones forest schools, no television So they give us the tech They give us the tech and they know what it does so their kids don't get it and that has always stuck with me and I think it's huge for people and I think now with schools bringing out emails about being phone free will really help parents I wish we had that when our kids were, well, when my child, I wish I had that when Eliza was 10, 11.

38:42But it's really hard, isn't it? Because I feel like it's a too, now so much homework, homework comes on and devices. So there is a device and then sometimes it needs an app that's on your phone. So you're just like, what? That is so true. Are we trying to tell kids not to be on their phones, but now you're giving them homework on their phones? It's so true. Teams and stuff. Eliza checks her homework in the car, looks at her timetable. You know, she's on her phone now a lot for school. and obviously she has her laptop but we don't get our laptops out all the time. I do it, I buy presents on my phone, I'm booking holidays on my phone, I'm doing it all.

39:15So that is the way of the world now and it's difficult. For me, the YouTube, the 30 second videos, the shorts, my children never watch YouTube, ever. Again, I don't know how I did that. Eliza was three and she got into Japanese sweet making, watching it. I've talked about it in the book. It's hilarious. It was a weird thing. Don't know. She had my phone one day. Who knows? And it was making sweets out of, no, sort of expandable rubbish, sugar and marshmallow, but making burgers, chips, weird things. It was so weird. But she got obsessed with it. And that was the last time and that was it. I didn't allow her to do it.

39:59When you suddenly see something and go, what are you watching? Yeah. It's boundaries, right? And it's also setting examples by our own behaviours. It is, and I'm the worst. But I have to say we argue, Eliza and I, over that. Oh, do you? And I think as parents and people listening, I do say it in Happy Days, I do say it in the book, I am quite a strict parent on certain things. Yeah. And I won't take the bullshit. I'm not scared of my children. I'm a mother. Yeah. And my job is to bring them up. Yeah. They're not my best mates. It's lovely to be close to them, but I am your mum. So when Eliza says, well, and I say, you've been on the phone a lot, you're looking at rubbish, get off of it.

40:36You're on your phone. And I said, don't talk to me like that. I'm working on my phone. And it is really confusing for her because I am working. I might be posting a video for something and I am sat on Instagram. But I'm earning that money for us. So it's work. So it is really hard for her. But I also think you need to not be scared of your own children. I absolutely agree. Absolutely. You can't be scared of them. No. And if they don't like you for an hour, that's fine. Yeah. But it's also like explaining it, right? It's explaining why you're putting that in place. And picking those battles. Where are you going to be strict?

41:11It's picking the battles. Where can you feel a little bit that they've got an element of freedom? Especially when you say that you were brought up in quite a strict household. But I know what I did. I know what I did. Yeah. And I rebelled. Yeah. So I don't want that. No. So there are decisions being made that some of my family, my nieces or whatever, Els or Maria will say, I can't believe you're letting me do that. And I say, well, I am. that's my choice and you'll get there one day. But there are certain things I'm doing that people can't believe, you know, that maybe I'm letting her on a train.

41:40Because I've always said, no, she'll get a cab or I'll take her. But they need to do these things. Whereas, for instance, her, I don't know. It could be any, even if it's being quite rude or the phone thing I am strict with, I just am. And also she knows how to value things. And as much as I will spoil her at Christmas or birthday, which I think are special days for children. I don't willy-nilly buy loads of stuff all the time. If it's stuff she needs, I'll say, well, I will do this, but that is a lot of money. You do realise, so I'm not frivolous. She values things. I mean, birthday, yeah, I bought her a bloody Chanel bronze.

42:20I mean, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous, but she asked for it. But it's treats, it's treats, but you can't do that all the time. And we are privileged because there are so many people who can't afford to give their children much, even on the special days. And I talk to them about that all the time. On that note, though, my Chanel bronzer lasted about 10 years. It is so true. Doesn't it last forever, that one? So there you go. Hopefully she'll have it forever. And if she loses it, I'll bloody kill her. Talk to me about life with Joni. When Joni first came along, how did she shift things? It was a huge shift.

42:58I just remember this baking hot summer. It was August the 16th. And I remember coming home with her, with my dad and Zoe. We had a nanny then, a childminder who helped. So he could pop round. And I remember having all the windows open. And Mark's mum helped me so much, Jackie. You know, very, very lucky. She was with me. So Mark was with me when we went in in the morning, obviously, and had Joni because it was plan C. And then I wanted Mark to bring... Elia then brought Eliza in. Eliza had stayed with Elia and they had breakfast and she brought her a big sister T-shirt and then she'd come up to the hospital.

43:37And then I wanted Mark to go home that first night. I've said, it's really important that you're with Eliza tonight. I don't want us both not to be with her. So he went home and Jackie stayed with me that first night in the hospital. And it was absolutely brilliant. She's such a, you know, I'm very, very lucky. I always say a lot of people talk to me about people that I worked with, Barbara Windsor, lovely Wendy Richard or June Brown, being mother figures. They've said it in the press, mother figures. It annoys me. I've not ever had another mother figure. Just nice, strong women around. But if Jackie writes Love, Mum too in a card, that's okay.

44:15So I feel very blessed. She's very caring and very understanding. and also took Eliza on as her own grandchild, you know, from very early on. You say that in the book, don't you? Yeah, I do, yeah. So, yeah, I just remember this beautiful, warm summer and because the family's so close, everyone was round all of the time and I had this lovely lamb, sort of lamb, fluffy lamb, flat sort of thing and Joni would lay on it and we were just all together and I was trying to breastfeed at the time but she was just a really good baby. Mark was around for a week or so, but then went back to work. And it's hard, isn't it, after a C-section?

44:54Because you can't drive and you're not overly mobile. So I had everyone helping me out. But Eliza and her, Eliza just adored her. I've got some beautiful pictures of them, you know. But her looking so little, when I look now, you know. Gosh, she was only six at the time. Yeah. But she just loved being with her and her on the bed. I remember her... It's only looking back, isn't it, that you can realise how small she was? Do you know what I mean? It's so weird because she was the grown-up one then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was the grown-up one. But you look and you go, but you were tired. Yeah, I'd be going, get mummy the bottle.

45:25Or grab that muslin, darling. You know the muslins that are upstairs. Just grab that one, you know. Well, it wasn't slave labour. But, you know, but I would be asking her things. She's just got a Chanel bronzer. She's fine. But she was very, very, always again, grown up for her age. Because now, when I look at Joanie, she's really childlike still, amazingly. me and I think is that because she hasn't got a younger sibling and I'm sure it is but Eliza at nine I mean she was in the bake-off at 10 she did junior bake-off my Eliza but she was baking on her own at nine and Joni I would not trust to put the kettle on I'm never you know Eliza was making me a cup of tea at eight yeah so it is and I think I baby Joni yeah yeah and then you get Eliza I can't believe what she gets away with when I was at age you'd shout at me and you know but the dynamics are always different you know you don't love them any less but it's just different mothering because of different times of your life how was it going back to EastEnders after after that maternity leave yeah you'd have a nice did you have eight nine months yeah I had about eight months yeah um how was it going back because all of a sudden life is very different at that point and it is sleep is everything it's sleep is everything my kids weren't bad sleepers that's They weren't too bad.

46:39Joanie would wake up, but only a couple of times. I was very lucky. But going back, I just didn't really want to go because I was loving that bubble. But you've got to go back. But it's hard, isn't it, when you have something in place. You let work know, I'm going to come back at this point. And it can sometimes feel like it's creeping up on you. Yeah. Also, I must correct you when it comes to maternity leave because we're freelance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. With only Steve, I just mean take some time off. Yeah, absolutely. Not getting paid for it. Time off. You know what I mean? No, because...

47:11Not even time off because you're raising your money. Just time. Just time. Just a bit of time. But it is, you know, it is a huge thing to not be financially earning any money at all. Yeah. You're not in a company that, you know, pay for that, which is... And I thought, well, I've just got to get back, you know. It's a huge chunk of our financial earnings that we're missing. So you have to get back. But it was okay, you know. We had good childcare. we had Jackie helping but then my dad got really ill when she was one and again talk about it in the book but I genuinely look back on that time as a bit of a blur and then I feel a bit guilty for Joni also and Eliza because I had a one year old a seven year old and my dad who was sort of 80 78 80 and I was up and down at the hospital and I had to look after him.

48:07I did everything I could to look after him and get him home and get him well because the NHS, bless its soul, is so overrun. If you sort of leave people there, they don't come out. So again, this sort of year and a half, two years, it was just incredibly fraught. And I was at work and I was full-time working, having dad, hospitals, going up with food, seeing the children. and you know you just look at a time in your life and think I don't know how I did it I don't know how it worked I don't know how I was a mum or a daughter and certainly not a wife to Mark I was just out and about and again with Mark I'll never forget those times it's like you said about how precious he was with Eliza how precious he was with my dad it just makes me love him every time I think about something there's more love because he could have gone your dad's not moving in with us.

49:03He's not, you know, I don't want that, you know. But everything was just accepted. There was never an argument about it or, oh, really? It's like, of course that's what you do. And suddenly I had dad with us until, you know, up until he died. He was with us. Isn't it crazy, though, things like that? You know, what happened with Eliza's dad and then your dad moving in, your dad getting sick. Those things that we carry guilt about that are actually out of our control. Correct, yeah. Like, every day is full of mum guilt. Yeah. Every day. Oh, yeah, all the time. And sometimes it's because we've dropped balls.

49:36I forgot it was non-uniform day today. I did quite on the way in. You know, but sometimes it's life happens. Yeah. You know, it's a bad relationship. It's someone really getting poorly. Yeah. That's out of your control. But we still somehow carry this guilt because everything's not perfect for our kids. And we simply can't make it perfect. No, you just can't do it. You can't do it. You can do the best you can. Yeah. And so looking back, I think I've done the best I could. And I feel very proud of that. How do you navigate mum-girl?

50:09I don't feel it too much because I think I do a bloody lot. I do. I think I do a lot. I like this, but yes, it's important. I do a lot. And especially, I think, making the choice of leaving EastEnders, a lot of that was for the children. Because it's brilliant there, but it is all-consuming. You can't plan anything. You'd miss your sports days. You'd be told, no, I'm afraid you can't go to that assembly. And I say it in the book. It's not like an office where I can phone Sue and say, could you do that meeting for me? Could you take over? No one can be, Sonia, apart from me. Well, they could. They could recast her tomorrow.

50:43Sorry, I didn't mean that, Mr Producer. Don't get any ideas, Mr Producer. She can be recast, but at that time, you know, if I'm ill, I'm ill and no one can do it. You can't have the odd hour off. It's a machine. such a machine that's going every week that you have to be on call at all times. And I thought, no, I've got to plan a bit more. Did it feel like the right time? Absolutely the right time. And stepping away and now looking, even booking a concert. I know that sounds ridiculous. We've just booked, me and Eliza have booked Olivia Dean for May next year. I can just put not working that day in May.

51:22it sounds silly but it was so structured and you could not get those days concerts theatre trips a night seeing a friend a birthday you missed out a lot you missed out on a lot you know and it's you can only have that I'm going to say sacrifice for so long yeah I think so but financially it was wonderful and emotion you know it is my family home and like I say if you cut me open there's EastEnders fruit and I love it I would never say never to going back yeah which is interesting Interesting because the last, so we're listening to you on Ryan's podcast, you're talking about how, you know, the next time you leave, that's it.

51:58You want it to be final. Well, it is true. You don't just want to go to Manchester. No, no, it is true. And I did have a feeling, I really did, the last Christmas. Do you feel that was just an inkling of actually it's time for a bit of a change, not for a finish? No, I did. When I was there, I said, I don't think I'm going to be back here this time. Really? I did feel that. I felt I'm not going to be here looking at the Christmas tree in Albert Square anymore. This is going to really take this in because I'm not doing this again. Yeah. And that's how I felt. But they didn't kill me off. Yeah. Which is a privilege as well.

52:32So lovely that she went off on a boat with her sister and her trumpet and all of that. It's just camp and fun and brilliant. But I just feel I'm not sure if that'll ever happen again. I can breathe. I can plan. And I'm really loving all the stuff I'm doing. Yeah. I'm loving it. I mean, I'm learning a course at the moment. I'm doing this health and social care thing for the BBC documentary. But I've gone back to college, G. I've gone back in a classroom. Yeah. And I'm doing a level three NVQ in health and social care. I've actually done one assignment. And I've got an assignment to do all about multidisciplinary teams in the workplace.

53:08And it's proper work that I've never done. I just went to work. And suddenly I'm sat by a laptop with proper books, nursing books. And I'm looking. How are you finding it? I love it. But it's just a lot. Because this assignment's due in in 10 days. And I've got a lot of book stuff going on. So I need to get... Yeah, and I don't think the lecturer or the tutor, whatever they're called, might really be like, I'm sorry, you were on promo for a book talk. No, it needs to be in. And I've got Eliza, as you can imagine, not started that assignment yet. I'm like, shut up. You ever go at me about leaving things to the last minute in my home, I'm like, OK.

53:45But also, it's a great example of, you know, if you want to do these things just do it you've got to lean into the things you actually enjoy because otherwise it is going to be too late and I love the girls to watch me do different things and I like them to I'm sure you feel the same but we're working mums and they're watching us succeed but we work really hard and it is a struggle but hopefully they'll grow up as independent beings who want to work hard because they've seen their parents work hard and I just love that and at some point I think it will click in what we've been doing all this time Probably when they're about 22.

54:19Okay. I'll call you when they're 22. No, they're not there. I was taking the kids to Disney for work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hosted a Disney podcast. And to sell them, I sat them down and I was like, so guys, what does mummy do for work? Because I thought they were going to say, you talk on a podcast, you work for Disney. And I'm like, sit with Emma and eat cake. I'm like, no. No, that's not what I do for work. Is that what they say Emma does as well? Two of the busiest ladies that I know. Two of the busiest. I love that. Just sitting in muffins all day. I mean, I spoke to Emma this morning. I'd quite like us both to just sit down and eat cake.

54:59I love that. But no. So first of all, it's quite injured. And then I was like, so we're going to Disney. I love that. That is classic. About how brilliant, though. That's what they say. Now, one thing I want to talk to you about is you were really open, and you talk about it in the book, about the scrutiny on your body and how you looked. Yes. And when you're in your 20s, you leaned into that slightly. I did. Slightly. Quite a lot. Quite a lot. With the DVD. Yeah. Which, it was just a thing that was happening at the time, right? Yes. But obviously, after that, I know in years to come, you do find yourself in a place where you are completely comfortable with your body.

55:44You're not doing... I am, but I think it damaged me doing that. Well, I still look in the mirror and go, oh, I could be this, could be that. But I think that is just us today. I could have four hours with you. I just think it's what we're seeing all the time as women and men. But as women, I think it's a scary world when you think about what we look like all the time. How did that experience, though, affect your pregnancies? That's a really good question. I don't think it did I think I was most comfortable when pregnant because you can be fat when you're pregnant after that DVD I'd lost four stone in three months and then they left and then it was over and then I just ate and ate and ate and ate and again if you link it up which you will in the book I'd lost mum at 19 so all of that weight stuff was happening through all of that time silly decisions were being made shouldn't have done that not the right guidance it's a silly thing to do But if someone says he's under a grand, do you want to lose some weight?

56:41I was like, yeah, I'll take it. Absolutely, that's two things I'd like to do. I'll have a go. But I just didn't have the support afterwards. But like you said, it kind of took you into a world where suddenly people were like, oh, now she's focusing on her weight, so let's focus on that. Let's focus on that. And it took a turn for the worse. I'd put loads of weight on very, very quickly afterwards, if not more. I just ate loads. and then I started taking laxatives at some point and, you know, I would never say I had an eating disorder. I'm very fortunate to say that. But, you know, I think if I'd have carried on with laxatives and this and that, who knows where I'd be.

57:21But I was very fortunate. But certainly an unhealthy relationship with weight and food. An unhealthy relationship, without doubt. How I got out of that, I think, was having children. Really? Yeah. I think because you're not the be-on-endo anymore. Yeah. You have those kids and that's it. You forget about yourself. All you worry about, all you focus on is if they're well cared for, their dinner, what they're eating, what they're wearing. Are they sleeping? That was my focus. And the idea of worrying about what I look like kind of fell to the wayside. Yeah. You know? I've always wondered whether there's also something to do with age.

57:58So obviously when you have a family, you're that little bit older. And that, it also gives you a different perspective of actually, my body is amazing, it can grow a human. That's right. I don't care what shape it is, it's a miracle. Look at what it has done. We are amazing. But now you're seeing women in their 30s, 40s, of all ages, suddenly it feels like it's kind of creeping in that everyone needs to be stick thin again. Well, I have to say, I've had a little chat on my podcast about it. Have you? Just the Manjaro thing. It is a worry to me because I think there was a lot of body positivity.

58:33it was very there was a stage of real body positivity and not a lot of not a lot of weight chat no i feel like the way chat sort of went yeah just people were talking where people were humans were moving through life um i think there's been a big focus on the the losing the weight now which is a worry isn't it especially when you've got daughters you know it is it's a worry i don't i don't like it eliza's great though she shows me who she follows yeah and they're all really like great people, positive body. So I'm hoping her, you know, that algorithm, what she follows. But that's scary, isn't it?

59:08It is. It's all about your algorithm. It's all about where you, like, find yourself looking. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I find the whole thing quite scary. And as someone whose weight is kind of, it goes up and down. If I'm on tour, it will go down. I think we're quite similar with that. We've never been stick-thin humans, you know, but supermodel-like people. please I'm not being rude but do you know what I mean we're not six foot and you just you know like a clothes hanger and just put the clothes on they look great and I think I think that's why people really like us I think it's also knowing that your body changes and that's alright it is alright depending on the time of the month if I'm on tour I'll lose weight simply though because of feeling anxious about going on stage and not being able to eat that's why I'm skinnier at the first three months of the year Right.

59:58It's like that. But then once that stops, once I start pooing this, I start putting away. It's a simple fact. So in the summer, yeah, I'll be a bit curvier. Yeah, yeah. You know? Well, I went abroad. We went to Crete this year, which was lovely. Usually go to Cornwall, but I thought, let's have some guaranteed sun. Taste of sunshine, yes. And yeah, we ate and ate. And I was like, you know, like spinach and feta pies. Yeah. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry, but I am not, not eating those. I'm not doing it I am not going to sit and eat watermelon when there is a spinach spanner copper pie and I said it on my pod and now someone said there's a fantastic Greek shop in St Albans I said don't tell me, I don't want to know because I'll be up there and I can't do that on a normal basis it's alright for 10 days, I won't fit out the door It's moderation right?

1:00:47For me it's the 80-20 run but I do, I love food, I love cooking food I love eating, I love restaurants I think for me going to a really fancy restaurant you know some people will have a weekend break I'll sort of do that and the tasting menu thing and I just love that food and good wine and you know it is what it is but at the same time I am aware that I haven't done exercise for ages and I just feel a bit wobbly yeah yeah yeah I need to start walking more so this time of year where you're going from your summer wardrobe to your winter wardrobe there's nothing more shocking, I had to do a shoot the other day right and they said bring some of your trousers just bring some of your jeans.

1:01:25I love this. Just as spares. So I tried, I spent, it was the worst half hour of my life, right? I got some to go to every pair of jeans and go, wrestle my way in and then go, not a chance. Like, I don't need this right now. I promise you, I did the same. Did you? I put my jeans on the other day and I was like, what is going on? Someone's drunk my jeans? No, I did the washing. I was like, oh, wow, I've really had a good summer. There's been a lot of pies eaten. Yeah. But you know what? going to the shop and buying the size app isn't a big deal either. So I've done that. But what I think at the moment with all the jab chat Yes.

1:02:04Although jab chat is probably accurate, is the fact that it's waiting for people to get influenced enough. You know what I mean? To just lean on you on a bad day. Lean on you on a day where those jeans don't fit. I know. And I do find it quite worrying. Well, have you thought I could have a bit of that? Only because I've had people going and doing it in a way where it's almost discussed in a way that they're trying to encourage you to do it yeah i'm like i don't want to do that no i'm not interested no i'm i'm seriously well i've not i've i've never gone through um any injectable route yeah i've not done no talks before or lip fill i just haven't so to inject something out i just i'm scared of It feels so bizarre to go from a this is me to a let's change myself and for what?

1:02:54For what? I don't really know. I don't think anyone will like me more if I'm skinny. No, definitely not. I don't think anyone will love me more. I don't think I'll be happier. I think it would do the opposite. I think a lot of people would be turned off if we were both wandering around like coat hangers. You see that though. You see that when people like us suddenly change their weight. and it is that big shift of I don't know how... I don't know who you are anymore. Yeah, because I thought... I thought you were one of us. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Very. Has motherhood been what you thought it would be?

1:03:27It has, but it's been much more rewarding. Yeah. More difficult than I ever thought it would be. But I love caring, so I think it couldn't have been a better job for me. Yeah. It's the best job. If you could write a letter on motherhood, Who would it be to and what would you say? I would write it to my mum. I would write a letter to my mum saying I'm really sorry that I wasn't there at the time and I wish I had you now. I would love to write that to my mum. But hopefully she's up in the ether hearing it all. Are there moments where you have to lean into signs or anything like that? Yeah, I lean into a lot of signs.

1:04:09Funnily enough though, not really with my mum. Really? I think because it was such a long time ago. Yeah. But Dad, I feel all the time. But maybe that's because he passed in the house. Yeah. I was with him when he passed. I was, you know, it was an honour. So I don't know. Maybe that's just a connection of the home. And I don't know if you've ever seen anyone pass away. No. That will blow your mind at any stage if you do have, I would call it an honour. Because my mum died. It was a real shock. I just got a phone call to say she'd gone. And then I had the complete opposite with my dad where I was there.

1:04:43and I care the nurse, the whole thing. When you're with somebody and you see them take their last breath, I swear on my life, you look at the body and you're like, oh, my God, they're gone. Oh, my God. It's like stone. It is the craziest thing you've ever... And then you go, oh, my God, this means nothing. This suit we're in means nothing. It is a very special moment. Heartbreaking but very special. and you can see the soul go whoosh out. You're like, this means nothing. It is honestly amazing. So that I think of often when I am going, oh, my skirt looks a bit funny and I wish I looked like...

1:05:27I say, oh, remember that? It is irrelevant. And this is literally something to help us navigate life. Yeah. It's got nothing to actually do with the person that we are. It is, honestly. You're gone. It's incredible. It's incredible. How did you navigate your dad's death with your girls? It is one that I'm not sure I did the right thing, but at the time it was the right thing. So I had a couple of days to go. I didn't know that, but I could feel it. In fact, I knew everything. It was like being psychic. I knew exactly what was happening. All the family thought I was crazy. I was like, you all need to get round.

1:06:07I said, we've got to get round. He's not going to be here for long. what are you talking about but I was right I was right um so the family came around and the girls went to school one morning gave him a kiss in bed said goodbye and then they stayed at friends houses and then that was a Friday um and then they came back on the Sunday morning he died he passed on a Saturday afternoon at twenty past five I know a lot of people would say that they should be there they should see them go it's more accepting I know all of that they should go to the funeral all of that they didn't I just wanted to protect them from that pain but it's not like I've gone oh he's fallen asleep he's gone out yeah or he's fallen asleep he's you know he died he wasn't very well but he was at home he was safe with the family I've got a big box with loads of photos of him with a post box that Eliza made and when it first happened they would write letters and post it to granddad we talk about him all the time because he lived with us I've got an annex so So now I'll go, can you go and get the tea towel from granddads?

1:07:10So I'm using granddads. We say granddads all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Again, everyone does what they want to do. But also the thing about not doing it right or people say you should, you know your girls. Do you know what I mean? You know this environment. You're navigating this thing that you don't quite know. No. And there is a sense of having to protect them or think about how it's best for them. I just know how sensitive and I just absolutely adored him because he lived there. Yeah. And I just don't think it would have been the right thing for them to be in that environment at that time.

1:07:46But also because he lived there, they absolutely knew what happened. Oh, yeah. They didn't need to see it to know it. No, no, no, they didn't, no. And like you say, it's an honour to be at someone's death. Yeah. I'm 40 and I've never been at someone's death. Yeah. So we don't know how that would affect a child. No. I personally, I remember going to see my mum at 19 in the funeral parlour and I wish I'd never done it for me. Scary for me. Didn't like it. Hated it, actually. She was in a white robe. It was all very ghostly. It wasn't warm. It wasn't horrible. She was freezing and I just hated it.

1:08:25And that's my blasting vision. So that annoys me. So maybe it all stems from that. Maybe it all stems from that. Oh, it's got all very... Sorry. I don't want to be switched off. I don't want to have a laugh. Let me have an accordion out, a violin out. An accordion is a trumpet, Sonia. Sonia, come on. Nat, go back to the letter. So you're going to write to your mum? Yeah. What are you going to say? Just thank you for everything you did for me. You were a wonderful mum. She was a proud housewife and mother, and that was her occupation. That was her job. That was her life. And I would say she brought me up wonderfully.

1:09:09Thank you for everything you did. My love of cooking comes from you. I think my bad language comes from you. She was a personality. And just to say, you know, everything you did for me was wonderful. And also, I am sorry. I'm sorry that it was all those turbulent years before. Yeah. You know, I wish she would have been around. I imagine there's no doubt that she was proud of you, of what you were doing career-wise at that point. Yeah. But I think, Nat, that she would have been so proud of the woman that you've become. I think so. And the woman that you've become. I think we would have been really close.

1:09:42Yeah. And a lot of people now say, God, you're like your mum. You're getting more and more like her as you get older, which I really like. I love that. Nat, we end the podcast with you completing three sentences. The first one is being a mum means? Everything. since having children. I drink more wine. And I'm happy when everybody's happy in the house. Nat, thank you so much. It has been brilliant. I've absolutely loved it. I knew I would. I knew I would. And after my hiccup this morning of the non-school uniform forgetfulness, knowing it was you made me feel so much better. Well, that's good because, listen, we all forget things.

1:10:22Thank you. Thank you so much. I love this podcast. I think you're amazing. I think you're amazing. Thank you. Thank you.