Rick Edwards and Emer Kenny on throwing out the birth plan

0:01Coming up on Happy Mum, Happy Baby We were walking home from our first date and he said, so I've been dating quite a few girls, but I'm just going to date you now. Which is very romantic. And then he said, I'm going to get off the bus. So you can either get off the bus and kiss me or you can stay on the bus. Sometimes you've just got to give very clear choices to people. When I had the miscarriage, I felt so scared to tell anyone I was working with. I don't know why. It still feels slightly... Private, I suppose. Private, slightly sort of taboo, no, but it's quite a lot. You don't really want to necessarily go into detail.

0:36I suppose I also didn't want anyone to say, oh, OK, well, when are you going to send us the next script? I didn't want to have that reaction of, I wanted to be in control of what was happening to me. I'd written out the birth plan and I had it all printed. There's a few things I can really clearly remember, and one of them was quite a long, long way in, where I just kind of privately and quite sadly just folded the birth plan up, just sort of tucked it into my pocket and thought, I'm not going to be needing it, actually.

1:07Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's guests, well, firstly, there are two of them. The first is a journalist, an author, a TV presenter, a broadcaster. The other is an actress, a screenwriter and producer. Together, they have a little boy. It's Rick Edwards and Ian McKinney. Hello. Firstly, I've got to say sorry because usually I do extensive research and all is great. However, I have been binge-watching Karen Peary and I cannot, I literally, I'm just looking forward to the journey home, to be honest, so I can get back off my laptop and see what's happening.

1:46So I have been really lucky to be sent for the second series. Oh my gosh. I love it. I love it so much. Thank you so much. So that's your creation. Yeah. How does it feel knowing that that's going to be heading out into the world? Daunting. I get really nervous. Do you? Yeah. Because I'm very tunnel vision when I'm making something. I kind of just do one thing at a time. So it has been the last two and a half years of my life. And... We have a child of the same age. Yeah. I have also raised a child sometimes. Yeah. So it's a bit of that. There's a little bit of child raising in there as well. But it's just been my focus for so long and I put everything into it.

2:26So I just want people to like it and enjoy it. And yeah. It's a bit of pressure, isn't there, going into a second series of something, knowing that everyone's really enjoyed the first series. Totally. And I was really proud of the first series. So I was really worried about matching it. And you're never going to match it exactly. It's going to be a different thing because they're based on books. And with the first one, I signed on to that book. And then the second one, it is the sequel. So I didn't necessarily choose it in the same way. So I loved it, but I kind of had to grapple with it a bit more.

2:56So yeah, it's the difficult second album. I hope we can do what the first one did. fingers crossed well you like it I love it so that's two solid reviews already thank you I've got two viewers do you see anything before you actually see the finished show I see a lot of scripts I see a lot of scripts I think I read every yeah pretty much read everything Rick's really amazing I think honestly the most romantic thing that you do is I mean it's not technically romantic but to me it means a lot is that I really need Rick to read what I've written because I have a sort of anxiety that I will lose my mind in the middle of a script and write something insane.

3:39And I need him to read it. Sense check everything. You haven't gone insane. It's good. But you sort of have it a little bit on the radio where you're like, I could just say anything. Do you know what I mean? And you get this anxiety where you're like, what if I just say something really offensive or suddenly start writing in French? Impressive. Yeah, since I don't speak it. But Rick reads everything for me. and sometimes Rick will get up at 3.45 in the morning to go to work and he will read the script on the way to work or when he gets to work, sorry BBC. Well, no, no, no. Let's pretend I don't do it when I'm at work.

4:11Let's just say I've done it on the way in. And so then he can email me any thoughts before I wake up in the morning and start working. And so I find that like extremely, I mean, I just think you don't need to do that and you do it and it's very, very nice. So yeah, he's done a lot of reading of my, but you hadn't actually seen it. No, no. I mean, I guess I see bits and pieces that you send me, but I've only watched the first episode of the new series, and that was quite recent. It was in the last week or so, wasn't it? Yeah, and I made him sit down alone to watch. I was like, you're not allowed to get up or look at your phone.

4:45You have to watch it in one go. Which I did with relish. And it's, yeah, I mean, very hard for me to judge, obviously, because I'm so biased, but I think it's brilliant. I'm an hour and ten minutes into the second episode. And I honestly... Still in. Are there only three episodes? Yeah. Good. Because that's why I've been sent. If there were four, I'd be complaining. Very angry. Because I feel like I can't go. I need it now. I'd be protesting. It's just brilliant. Well done. Well done. Genuinely. And to have that happening at the same time as having a newborn, to start working on that. Yeah. Yeah.

5:26Did you know that you were going to have to start writing 12 weeks after? So we got the green light for the second series when I was pregnant. And my big anxiety before we had the baby was work. How am I going to work? How am I going to go back to work? How am I going to, I need to go back as soon as possible. I think I probably could have said no and pushed it. Yeah. But you don't know at that point what you're about to step into. And I always felt like I would just really need to be back at it and I think with hindsight I don't think I did need to go back I think you cannot second guess how you will feel about parenthood and once I was in it with the baby there I really really wanted to be with him but I had told the channel and the production company that I was going to start 12 weeks after I gave birth and I did and it was a completely mad year and I had a lot of guilt about whether I was doing either of them right yeah I learned a lot about saying no and about boundaries but um ultimately everything's turned out okay yeah the show's great and well I hope it's great and the baby I also hope is great um yeah there is definitely that thing I think when you're a freelancer and you are creative and you know that that work is there.

6:46It's a very odd thing, I think, because you just feel like there's something that you've got to work towards. And actually, I think anyone that's got to go back to work, knowing that that deadline, that time is coming for you and that your maternity leave is coming to an end, it feels like it's really, for me, it felt like it was really almost starting to encroach, actually. I was still in that bubble of I'm just in mum mode, but knowing that it's coming over the hill, it's a... Yeah. And I also think being an actor, you're very used to periods of time of not having work. So when you have the work, you are so trained to jump on it.

7:25And so it's so scary to imagine that anything would get in the way. So I was really worried about the bump getting in the way. I actually ended up filming a TV show as an actor right until I was 36 weeks pregnant, which I actually loved. But I think it forms you and your attitude to work. But you were really nervous about telling the team on that show, because it was the second series, and you got on with all those guys really well, you were writing on it as well. From the outside, I was like, it's obviously going to be fine, but you were nervous about saying to them, ah, my character's going to have to be pregnant.

8:01Yeah, it was a show called The Curse on Channel 4, a comedy show with the guys from People Just Do Nothing and Murder and Successful, and it's the second series of that, and they're amazing. The biggest worry that Sipa, who plays my husband, had, was I called him, said, see if I'm actually pregnant and I'm hoping that we can write that into the show. And he was like, oh, my God, I'm going to have to kiss a pregnant person. I was like, yeah. Is that okay? I was like, I have to just pretend that the baby's mine. That's how I'll get my way. I was like, in the show, the baby is yours. That's acting.

8:42that's amazing he was fine with it in the end but the idea that that's not just between you and the person that you're kissing but also the person that's inside they're coming I've not got consent for that exactly

8:58but it's hard isn't it I think you're thrown into a world where you simply have to say yes to everything you jump on those opportunities and you never want to feel like you can't do I remember but even booking holidays and stuff and going, oh, I can't because what if something comes in? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You want to put your life on hold? Yeah. Oh, my God, I mean, we've moved so many holidays. Yeah, we moved our honeymoon four times. Yeah. For work. Both of us. But you sort of know that about, it's quite useful that we do similar things. Yeah, yeah. We kind of get it. I think if one of you. I can't imagine how annoying it would be.

9:30No, if you were just, if you just had a normal job. Yeah. And then you were with someone who. It's like, I've got an audition. Oh, I've got to, yeah, we're going to have to move that, move it again, move it again. I think that would be quite frustrating. Especially if you're with someone who's got those four weeks holiday and they've lifted in. And that's it. Well, I'm still going to be off. For now, I'm not going to Greece. Well, I am. So, you know, I'll have a nice time. Yeah. Let's talk about your childhoods because they're very, very different. Yeah. Rick, you're an only child. Yes. Ima, you're one of four.

10:00Yeah. It's quite hard to reflect on your own childhood because you don't have anything else to compare it to, really, obviously. What I do see now, from having spent a lot of time with Ima's family and Ima's siblings, is I kind of understand the sort of complicated dynamics that go along with that, with having siblings, that I obviously never really experienced and never even gave a great deal of thought to. And I can see how both amazing and quite sort of annoying it must have been. I just didn't have any of that. I guess it was just spoilt for attention. That was the main thing because it's only one of me.

10:37And that feels like there's a fairly sort of direct line from being spoilt with attention to ending up doing what I do, I think. Because, you know, I sort of went out into the world and was like, well, surely everyone should still be looking at me, right? So, yeah, let's investigate that. Never felt lonely, but I definitely felt bored quite a lot. I don't think you like being alone that much. I think you fill your life with, you filled before you had me and family, you filled your life with a lot of friends, I think. And I think I really relish time alone because I've had such a busy childhood full of siblings.

11:18Yeah. So I think that's... Are you like me then, in terms of like wanting a nice, quiet, long space? My ideal, I think, I can't remember who said this to me. It was either a therapist or an astrologer, so... Okay. I like where this is going my ideal situation is being in a room by myself in a house full of people so I want to be on my own doing my own thing but I want to be able to open the door and be like hey because I want the instant company should I want it and I really really relate to that I kind of don't want to be with people but I want to know they're nearby if I want them I like that I think I want to be in the throng in the house Yeah, you want to be downstairs making noise.

12:00Yeah, I think so. So what was your childhood like? Where were you in the order of four? I am the second. So I've got an older brother and two younger sisters. And I think that it was so, it's really formed me, that shape. I think I came out into the world and saw my older brother and was just like, oh, I can do everything that he can do and I want to do it better than him. And I have a very competitive relationship with him. He is completely unbothered by me. Like he's like, I'm not competing, but well, maybe a little bit. And then I've got two younger sisters who are amazing and they're very close in age to me as well.

12:33We had a very busy, chaotic, quite messy, sorry mum, house and it was really fun. And as a teenager it was really fun because we kind of all had the same friends. And there was lots of crossover and sort of snogging each other's friends and stuff. Did that cause arguments? Yeah, there was a lot of arguing as well. And there still is. Still is quite. Yeah. Yeah, we still live really close together. My sort of principal observation about siblings from Ema's family is how quickly they're able to go from like screaming at each other to then everything being completely fine. And it's really extraordinary to me because I can't I can't do that.

13:15I haven't had the practice. So if I've if I've had an argument with someone that will sit with me for six to eight months. and with them it's just gone in a flash. I'm like, that's like a superpower. That's really... So you can imagine how our arguments, I'm like, what argument? And he's like... Yeah, I'm like, the argument. That we had eight months ago. Yes, exactly. I can't, I find that, I'd love to be better at that. I wonder if it's also because with siblings there's no filter and you get the thing out. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of that and I'm like, he doesn't want to get the thing out.

13:50he doesn't want to tell me what's wrong. He wants me to, for eight months, ask him, what are you annoyed about? No, tell me. And I'm like straight away, that annoyed me. Yeah, I'm never in any doubt about what's annoyed you, which is useful. Do you think your childhoods played any impact on what you thought family life would look like for you when you're older? I think this is fair to say. When you meet my parents, less so my dad, although still slightly, people was a little bit surprised because it's not immediately apparent where I've come from I'm quite different to them yeah you're very loud and confident and like yeah yeah like it's sort of yeah and they're they're not particularly but my mum especially is very shy and there's lots of stuff that she sort of probably recognized about herself that she felt wasn't good or kind of held her back in some in some way and she made this massive effort to try and ensure that I wasn't I didn't have any of that baggage that she felt that she had and you know you can sort of delve deep into these things and try and work out whether you know what she did did work or it was just sort of luck or whatever but the fact is that she sort of thought well I don't want him to be shy and I'm certainly not shy um I don't like all of these things that she tried to do seem to have sort of works out and I guess that's made me think okay what are the what are the elements of my personality or the way that I sort of am that aren't good that I wouldn't want our son to take on so there's a bit of there's definitely a bit of that road rage um yeah road rage yeah road rage you've got it you can't can't have that yeah number one road rage yeah um that actually is it's kind of specific but non-specific at the same time but just sort of thinking about well partly the example that you set but sort of what would you in what would you improve what would you sort of you know want to offer um that you've struggled you've struggled with maybe yeah yeah i think the thing about siblings though and i think we you and me talked about this early on is that you can see two people, parents, like actually using similar approaches on different people and them all coming out differently.

16:14And that's so me and Rick really argued about it early on because he was saying, no, if you put loads of time and effort and attention into a child, they should come out like this because that's kind of what happened with him. And I'm like sitting there. I'm sample size one. Yeah. And I'm looking at my family thinking, no, they kind of, you know, tried all different stuff with all of us in the same way. and we all came out so different and we reacted differently. And so I'm kind of like, I don't think it's just you do this and this happens. No. Now we're doing it ourselves and it's kind of a big mix of the two, I suppose.

16:44Also, the thing with your family is that if you go to your mum and dad's house, there's always someone else already there or someone will pop in. And it's very communal and sort of warm and informal. and I really yeah I really like that like Rick will come to my parents house and we'll all be there lots of people in and out and he'll just go upstairs and have a nap like that's the kind of level and everyone's cool no one's like where's Rick he just finds a bed and sleeps that's the kind of vibe it is and so you have slotted in well you can do whatever you like and it's fine yeah that's really nice I love that talk to me about how you two met because everything moved quite quickly in the early days I mean, I would say very quickly.

17:30Yeah. So we got a mutual friend who's a comedian and we went independently to go and watch her do stand up in Angel. Yeah. Yeah. He walked in the room. Yeah. And I actually had a boyfriend and he had recently had a breakup and was dating every woman in sight.

17:52Like half of the movie. 10 or 12. Half of the women in sight. Okay. 10 or 12. Jesus. It was not 10 or 12. You were having coffee with a lot of different women. It was more than it should have been. Yes, I accept that. We were both in, it wasn't the perfect moment to meet the love of your life. But for some reason, he walked in and I knew he knew my friend, but I had no idea why I did this. I just put up a peace sign at him across the room. And I was like, sure. So I went and sat next to her. He sat next to me and said, hello, who are you? I mean, we were quite mean to each other at the beginning.

18:29It was funny, but it was kind of sharp. Just classic necky stuff. Yeah. And we were both, well, I was taken and you were, I don't know what you were doing. Taken by anyone. Anyone who's having. But we started messaging each other. Insults, really. And then it sort of ended up being that you were messaging me sort of from dates with other women saying, like, this one can't tell the time. Yeah, yeah, it was true. And also I can't tell the time, I didn't tell you that. and then the thing was is that my boyfriend had actually been trying to break up with me for quite a long time been hanging on yeah and well I just didn't let him and then Rick sort of walked in and was quite funny and tall and I just sort of thought maybe I should let him break up with me finally so I let him finally get what he wanted which was to break up with me he was fine with that I was fine with that and then six weeks later we were engaged yeah yeah yeah Yeah, it's as simple as that.

19:27This is quite straightforward, really, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that was, what, 12 years ago? So, yeah, I think at first people were like, let's just see if they are actually going to get married. They are completely mad. It turns out we're not completely mad. No. Didn't you think it was just a case of, you know, having dated everyone in sight? Just that thing of, please don't, just that thing of actually let's not muck around, like this feels like something completely different. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you can't really explain it because it doesn't make any sense rationally. But very, like very quickly, I was just like, oh no, this woman's incredible.

20:07I want to spend the rest of my life with her. So I guess I'll just ask her if she wants to do that. I'm quite a rational person, generally speaking. and I just completely put that to one side and it didn't feel like a weird thing to do. I was just like, yeah, this is right and everyone else in my life is just going to have to go along with it. What he actually said was, we were walking home from our first date and he said, so I've been dating quite a few girls but I'm just going to date you now. Which is very romantic. And then he said, I'm going to get off the bus so you can either get off the bus and kiss me or you can stay on the bus.

20:49Sometimes you've just got to give very clear choices to people. But, I mean, the delivery is quite something. At that six-week mark, when the proposal was made, how did that feel? Well, I had been, up until that point, if you ask anyone that knew me, completely boy-mad from, like, age five. I was just like, I just loved boys. And I was quite manic about it. And I was always heartbroken. And I was always kind of stressed about a man. And when I met him, I was completely calm. The noise of all of it, all of the anxiety about being loved or whatever, was just kind of calm for a second. Because he just did, he said what he meant.

21:37And he did what he said. Like he just said, I really like you. And I believed him. and I suddenly always felt like, oh my God, I want to feel like this for the rest of my life. I want to feel like I'm with somebody with total confidence in themselves and with me, in me, with me, both. In and with, yeah. And I think my family saw that and were like, whoa, this is really different. And so even though it was really quick, I think everyone in my world suddenly felt like, oh my God, yeah, she's found the right one. And I think people in your world, like your agent, was like, hang on, calm down. You need to, you know, give this a bit more time.

22:18But that feeling has always been there now. You know, just never, never gone. It was sort of calm. Did you talk about having a family early on? I think quite early on. Yeah. Yeah. I remember having a conversation about it driving to Wales. Oh, really? Yeah. And that would have been certainly within the first. I think we were probably engaged by that point because obviously we were engaged. Most of our relationship we were. So six weeks in at least. Yeah, but I think it was like a few months in driving down to Wales and we had a conversation about it in the car. Yeah. And both said, yeah, that's something that we'd like to do.

22:55Yeah. And actually didn't get round to it for quite a while. Yeah. For... Well, I was 24. Yeah, I could love to. Yeah, I was still quite young. Yeah. I think because everything had been a big whirlwind, we did take our time getting married and then, you know, everything else. I'm sort of glad that we did as well. Timing feels good. Yeah. Was there a pressure? You know, I think once you actually get married, all everyone wants to ask is so. I think I felt like I put a lot of pressure on myself to work out those timings. And what happened was everything that we planned didn't happen in the way that we'd hoped or we'd wanted to.

23:37It happens when it happens. And that was a big lesson for the control freak in me. But you don't know how things are going to go until you start trying. And I think especially doing the jobs that we all do, it's that thing of trying to find a slot that it feels like, oh, gosh, this is a good time. And then trying and kind of going, oh, well, it's not worked. And now I have to admit, what does that mean to the slot that I've given it? And, you know, again, you can't pause your life for something. it's such a hard thing to navigate. Yeah, I still struggle with that. You know, it's just... We still talk about it now.

24:10So when would be a good time? And I think at some point we're going to have to accept that there is never a good time. It's just you do it if and when you can and then you sort of fit everything else around it. There's no other way of doing it. I am really glad, though. So we had a miscarriage before. I made the first series of Karen Perry. And I, like, it was a really horrible time, but... We ate a lot of donuts. Yeah, we sat on the sofa and just cried and ate. Cried and ate donuts, yeah. But if I had had that baby, I wouldn't have been able to make Karen Perry Series 1 in the way that I did, because I went on set every single day, and I was there.

24:55I'm very involved in everything. And I would have been, like, having the baby when they were shooting. And I think, you know, in the end, I realised that things, I don't know, I found sort of spooky woo-woo, but like, and you're logical, you don't believe in this, but like I think things do happen when they're meant to happen for you. And even the bad things can be good things and you have to kind of take it as it comes. You can't completely control the timeline. So I think I found the good in that tragedy. And then we ended up having our baby you know, it was still hard. But yeah, the timeline for me in the end actually kind of worked.

25:34Also that thing of having a baby after loss. Yeah. You know, you can't, it's almost like you don't believe in that pregnancy or you don't want to let yourself go there. Yeah, that was tough as well, yeah. I didn't really, I didn't tell anyone I was pregnant until I was like five months pregnant because I just didn't believe it was going to stick. And that's why I didn't tell anyone I was working with or anything. And I was just wearing clothes and no one could see anything. It was a journey. I mean, a lot of people go on these journeys as well. I mean, no one has it smooth. But I do think the more people that say that they've experienced it, it helps in some way.

26:08Totally. Yeah, totally. And I felt when I had the miscarriage, I felt so scared to tell anyone I was working with. I don't know why. I think I just felt, I don't know. Why did I feel that? I still feel slightly... Private, I suppose. Private, slightly sort of taboo. know but like it's quite a lot yeah and then you feel like you might need to talk about it all the time yeah you don't really want to necessarily go into detail or discuss it it's hard I suppose I also didn't want anyone to say oh okay well when are you going to send us the next script I didn't want to have that reaction of I wanted to be in control of what was happening to me and it was tough but so I had a miscarriage before my three and then I had a miscarriage after.

26:56And what I found really interesting between those is before, to the first pregnancy, I felt like there was a desperation, there was a need, there was a feeling of this is everything I've dreamed of, and also not realising that that could happen. And I found that the second miscarriage felt completely different because I felt so lucky to have the other three. and there wasn't that I just want to be a mum feeling that I had first time. But you don't know how those are going to feel. But what they do do is they rob the naivety, I think, that you enter pregnancy with. Ours was also in COVID, so Rick wasn't allowed to come to the scan with me and it was a silent miscarriage or a missed miscarriage, so I didn't know until I went to the scan.

27:50so I was in the room by myself and that was like really hard because I remember sitting outside and I just had to text you the news didn't I and I was just sort of crying into my mask and so I think it was as you say yeah it was there was a there's so much fear with that first one because it's your first time going through the journey and then it kind of slightly takes the magic out because I was so excited going into that scan the second when I when we were actually pregnant there was a lot of anxiety uh throughout and I was just very low-key about the whole thing yeah we we didn't like say publicly that we were having a baby on like socials or anything until a month after he was born because I was so cautious yeah um and I'm quite glad actually protective yeah protective of us and of the baby and I'm glad we did that actually because it meant there was just this like little kind of secret time uh where we just kind of processed what was happening how did you feel when you got pregnant for the second time i think i texted you while you were on air yeah on the radio yeah 6 30 in the morning i don't know why i knew i just i think i started feeling sick and um yeah you did sort of know didn't you yeah i knew i did a test and it was so early like it was really early and i texted you the picture of the test while you were on the radio, which is actually an insane thing to do when I think about it.

29:17Yeah, how did you feel being live on the radio and getting that news? Yeah, I mean, I was probably just trying to work out when I might be able to slip out of the studio and... Fist pump. Yeah. Privately. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, obviously really excited, but then sort of nervous as well. You just don't quite believe it for a bit. No, no. Yeah. It's one of those where, and this is so mad, isn't it, but it was just it was a slightly like faint line oh yeah it was a slightly like but i do feel like tests have helped us with pregnancy tests yes yes yes exactly exactly you're like no it is still a line so that does a line is a line a line is a line yeah and also i was really sick like i was sick even when i was pregnant before and then i was really really sick with this one so the first trimester was i think we were happy but we were just i just sat on the sofa sort of like green I remember once I asked Rick to make me pasta I said plain pasta, completely plain like nothing comes near it and he put salt and pepper on it I remember him bringing it, I could smell I could smell the pepper I was like, salt and pepper and threw it back in Yeah, wash this

30:39well how was that pregnancy because obviously you're trying to conceal it you're trying not to tell people about it but you're pregnant so yeah you're going to be feeling certain things there were two halves to that pregnancy the beginning which was awful i was so sick and then the second half I was filming in Gran Canaria with four guys who were just amazing and raucous and fun and protective of me as well and lovely and I felt so grateful to be doing the job I love and particularly that job which I love doing and to be pregnant and I was just doing mad stuff like my character was like crawling through the desert crying screaming holding a dead man and I just felt like I just felt like wow this is mad and it's mad to bring this little guy on the journey with me Rick wasn't with me he was he was working at home so I just felt quite strong and powerful like oh my god I get to do all this stuff and do this so I was really it was a really um different you know beginning and end do you feel like pregnancy changed how you perceive your body I think maybe the birth more than the pregnancy because I think with birth, my mum, she had four kids with no drugs.

31:54Three of them were home births. She talked to me a lot about birth and I had sort of expected that was what it would be for me. And obviously everything you expect goes out the window and it's a completely different journey. when I got there I tried for 40 hours without drugs and then ended up having epidural which was the best half hour of my life really oh my god it was amazing what did we eat? a panini we ate paninis it was a real highlight I hadn't been able to eat for 40 hours because nothing stayed down and so I had the epidural and that was blissful sweet relief the way that I'd sort of approached the sort of feeling of slightly being a spare part in that scenario was just to read loads and sort of just have all of the information that I felt like I could possibly have to be helpful during the process.

32:45And I'd written out the birth plan and I had it all printed. And I just, I can so clearly, there's a few things I can really clearly remember. And one of them was, you know, quite a long, long way in where I just kind of privately and quite sadly just folded the birth plan up, just sort of tucked it into my pocket and thought, I'm not going to be needing it actually. This is not how we are. But there is that, right? I think that it's the same when it comes to birth and to actually having a baby. There are so many books out there that tell you what to expect, what to do. Our babies aren't textbook.

33:20Our bodies aren't textbook. But it's really hard when you have studied and think that you know how it's going to look and what you're going to do within that situation. Yeah. And also I knew that you were pretty strong on not wanting an epidural. and yet for, I mean, definitely sort of five hours I've been sitting there thinking, this lady doesn't need an epidural. She really does. I'm sort of gently trying to broach that. Did you eventually broach it? No, I think the doctor did. I mean, the doctor also could see. I hadn't slept, I hadn't eaten and I was in so much pain and the baby was not going to come out.

34:05It wasn't shifting. And I think he was like, I'm going to get through this without some help. And I needed a lot of help in the end. He had a very big head. In the end, it didn't matter at all that I had the epidural and it didn't matter at all that I tried to push 40 out. You just go, whatever you have to do to safely get this baby out. But you would have gone into it with so much pressure, even though you wouldn't have realised it because of hearing what your mum's experience was. So it's kind of like, well, that's what birth looks like. I felt like I, and she'd never impressed it upon me. Like it wasn't like she'd told me, but it's just what I had grown up.

34:43It was just there, wasn't it? Yeah, and I had, also, you're going into the unknown. You have no idea how your body is going to feel. And also, I really strongly believe that everybody physically is built different and feels differently in that time. and I remember being at the sort of 40th hour when the doctor was like, you have to have one. I remember thinking, I don't have the same body as my mum. Like, I just don't and I don't have the same, whatever is going on in there somehow is different and that's okay and I just have to go, I am what I am and I've got to get this baby out safely. So it was a sort of big growing up moment away from my mother's way of doing things, but in a nice way, you know, it wasn't like...

35:24But also I feel like there's a sort of, you're like a strong woman and I think that part of you felt that in order to be a strong woman, you shouldn't need to do that thing. You shouldn't need that help. There was a little bit of bravado, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. But I now see that that wasn't right. Yeah, yeah. Just kind of a belief that I had come up with out of kind of nowhere. But I suppose it's because of what I'd seen. Also knowing that there's a strength in actually kind of taking the help. Do you know what I mean? Taking the help. Because actually you need strength. So the simple fact is you and your baby both need to be safe.

36:03Yes. And anything that might not be safe is just not worth following that path. Yeah. And I tried to the last minute and then the doctor, who was the expert, said, I think this is what we need to do really gently and really kindly. He didn't tell me I had to, but he was like, I think this is the best thing. And I heard it and was like, all right, OK. And I was like, yes, I agree. And then as I had the epidural, you nearly fainted. Really? Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah. You nearly fainted twice. No. Nearly fainted twice. Really embarrassing. So the first is the epidural. What's the second? When was the...

36:40I mean, it was really when we were in the action. And there was a lot of blood everywhere. But we had bought Lucozade and we'd brought fruit pastels. I don't like... Because that's what you need for birth. and I just remember at one point the nurse gets to say, sir, sir, sit down and have some fruit pastels, please. It's fairly emasculating, actually. The stuff that we fought for, Emma. No, you're going to need the sugar. You look very pale. It's a very funny thing, though, isn't it? Because suddenly the attention in the room goes to the man that's about to faint. Yeah. Another woman who's got a baby coming out of her fanny.

37:13It's not how you want it to go, really, isn't it? Just thinking, pull yourself together. I can't. I feel awful. They did actually give you a little flannel, didn't they? The doctor was like, Rick, Rick, Rick, go and get a wet flannel. And then they put him up at this end and then just had him dab me because I think they really sensed he needs something to do. I was kind of like, do you have to dab? Yes, dabbing, dabbing. The doctor said dabbing was good. As long as you feel good and needed. Let me have something. Just instantly trying to block it out.

37:51How did it feel when your little one arrived? We had a little bumpy start. He was in a neonatal ICU for the first five days of his life because he had a little lung infection that he caught immediately when he came out into the world, apparently. So it was really surreal. In some ways, I sort of loved the safety of the hospital because I was there with him for five days. And whilst we were really worried about him, we knew we were surrounded by people who were kind of going to look after him and me and you with your fruit pastels. When we actually came to leave and he was fine, I didn't want to leave.

38:31Yeah, that was quite scary, wasn't it? I was so scared to go home because then it meant parenting actually had to start. And it was nice when we got home and I remember putting him on the sofa and he just looked so small. And I realised he's here now. He's not going to go away. He's not going to go away. So, I mean, that's a long... Five days in hospital and then knowing that you've got to come back at 12 weeks, that's already eating into your time together. Yeah. Do you feel like you had time to sort of settle into what motherhood and fatherhood looked like? And how long did you have off, Rick?

39:09Originally, I'd taken three weeks off. And then because of the five days in hospital, I took another week. So it was sort of four weeks in total. and I'm really glad that I took the extra week. Sort of now, I think, should have taken a bit more. Should have just taken as much as I possibly could. Yeah, you were really sad going back, weren't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also because Rick's job is, the hours of it are crazy because it's 3.45, he gets up and he's on air at 6. So our house at night was so busy because I was with the baby and you were getting up. It was just such a weird blur of a few months.

39:46And night times can be quite... For me, I feel like they're the really hairy times. Once he had to start leaving at 3.45, it was like survival to just get to when he came home. Just being alone with that little baby in the middle of the night, it was just, you know, surreal. Which feels really bizarre to think, right? But it totally is. And there's so much now about, you know, you've got to enjoy every moment because you go so quickly. But it's really hard to enjoy it when you feel like you are in survival mode. Yeah. Yeah. And you're also just desperately trying to work out what's wrong with them because they're crying.

40:22Worried. Yeah. A lot. Yeah, and he would have reflux or he would be, you know, he wouldn't want to breastfeed like that or he would need, and actually now I look back and I think, he was totally fine. Like, you know, there were little things to work out here and there, but I think maybe him starting in the hospital had made us quite, you know, just careful to make sure that we checked in on everything. Yeah. We were very sort of like looking everything up and trying to work everything out. And I think, you know, if we had a second, if we were lucky enough to, I think I would be more relaxed because you just know that not everything is a problem.

40:56He might just be a bit sick that day. Do you think motherhood or fatherhood has impacted how you approach your work? Yeah, I'm so much more efficient. I'm so laser focused on a day to day level, but on a sort of year to year level, I'm like, I really want to get this done because I want to have another baby. Or, you know, I feel like it's really made clear what I want from work. And I want to have a weekend with a baby now and with you and I want to have time as a family. I felt like an afterthought there. Yeah, you can come. You can come. You know, and he wants to go to the playground. We're going to the playground.

41:32Yeah, we're going to the playground. You know, I always thought it would have a, you know, it does make working harder. But in some ways it's just made me kind of more ferocious in it as well. I think there's an interesting thing for me where, because my radio show is, you know, current affairs and news, I think I get very sort of keenly affected by any story that has any sadness associated with children. Like, I really struggle with it. It's not very helpful when I'm trying to do my job, but I guess it sort of supercharges your empathy in some way. Do you feel like you have to almost try and control that?

42:14Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not always successfully, which is okay. I think the listeners sort of understand and respect if you get emotional about something because it feels like quite a sort of human response, but you can't be doing it the whole time. I think it's quite powerful when you get emotional on air because particularly as a man, I think you've cried talking to people in vulnerable positions or in war zones. And, you know, I've listened and I think, you know, as you say, you can't do it all the time because that would be a lot. But it's human. It's always been there, but it just feels very close to the surface now.

42:52There's a lot of terrible stuff happening in the world. A lot of it involving kids and, you know, that. Yeah, I find that tough, I think. One thing you are really passionate about is getting younger people voting and getting more politically aware. Yes, yes. Which I sort of came to in quite a weird way, I think, and quite late. So I was never, as a kid, not politically engaged at all. Never, like it's not something that me and my mum and dad spoke about. They're not particularly, well, they're not political. Then when I had friends who were quite sort of politically engaged, I found that quite, not alienating exactly, but I felt quite shut out of those kind of conversations and I just would feel that I couldn't really get involved because I basically didn't know what they were talking about.

43:45But then also a bit sheepish about asking because they all sort of knew stuff that I didn't. I got a job hosting, well, what was effectively like Young Voters Question Time. It was called Free Speech on BBC Three. And I sort of liked the idea of doing like a lively debate show, really, and then realised I'd obviously need to sort of get my head into politics as well. So I sort of tried to learn about it. But the main thing that I realised is that young people were quite disengaged and at that time, and you would probably argue still now, because young people don't vote as much as old people, their interests and their needs tend to get marginalised.

44:29And I thought, well, this feels bad. And I just kind of felt like, okay, well, maybe there's some stuff you could try and do. And maybe I have an interesting sort of perspective on it because I'm not coming at it from the angle of someone who's like super political for their whole life. Very much someone who's kind of coming late to it. And I did a TED talk about it and sort of put forward some ideas and off the back of that wrote a book to try and help. because actually the one thing that I found is I went to some schools to talk to kids about what their relationship with politics was. The main thing that I heard was not that they weren't interested, just that they didn't really know very much stuff and they weren't sure where to get the information either.

45:12And when they were saying to me, you know, so where would we be able to look this up? I was like, hmm, not sure actually. Because there's so much stuff that there wasn't like a source course um and so i tried to write a book that just in in as plain a language as possible just kind of laid out the sort of political landscape that would be just a helpful so it's not it's completely sort of non-partisan yeah just to say these are the issues these are the kind of ideas that various people have on them yeah make your mind hopefully this will be useful and i went around did quite a lot of talks about that as well impossible to measure whether it had any any effect.

45:52Unfortunately, I think it was a good thing. I think it was a good thing to do. It felt like quite an uphill battle. It's a big thing to take on. Yeah, yeah. It sort of, it essentially would need to be like your full-time job. Yeah. I probably found, I don't know what you'd think, I found myself probably quite depressed by it because I sort of felt like I was pushing but couldn't figure out a way of actually achieving any... I suppose the one thing that... It's just purely anecdotal, but I did get lots of young people get in touch with me sort of directly who had either seen the talk or read the book and had found it really sort of useful, exactly what I'd wanted.

46:40And also, even if you... Even if there's just a few people... You bumped into someone the other day and they came up and said that they were now working in politics because they had read his book. And even if it's just like those people might go on and change things. You can't actually measure the effect of what you've done, but you did do it with a really noble goal. It was purely because you really cared about that issue and that's why you did the TED Talk about that. And so it was a big goal and you tried your best. Yeah. I did try my best. But it's very different. It's having someone like you talking about it who feels just instantly more accessible to people.

47:21You know, you're a Love Island lover. Yes, exactly. You know, you're the end for that talking about it. It feels very different to a stuffy, middle-aged man talking about it. That's why I sort of thought maybe I've got a chance. Yeah. Because I'm, you know, the guy who presented Tool Academy who is now talking about this stuff and I don't even have the sort of jargon, the quite alienating jargon to use. I do think that that worked to some extent. I think people probably were a bit more willing to listen and engage than if it's just a sort of political journalist writing about it when it just feels immediate like, well, that's not for me.

47:57Yeah. Ima, I guess even though your work with writing was fiction, you actually had to go into a bit of a... You both, it feels like there's a lot of darkness in your jobs. I know there's a lot of light as well. but how was balancing that with motherhood oh like writing about kidnap and murder yeah that part yeah um so in the second series karen perry there's at its heart is the kidnap of a young woman with her young child and that was in the book so that wasn't something that came from me wanting to write about that but with a new born baby and writing about that experience i think it's sort of just supercharges me.

48:42I quite like grappling with the dark and I like finding the parts of the story which I relate to. That's how I can find any way in. And so with Karen always, she's a lot of Val who writes the books, but there's another layer then where I put how I feel about the world. First series were very much about working in a male-dominated environment. this series she sort of grapples with getting the authority that she had wanted and then how are you someone's boss what's the best way to do that and she sort of realizes that she has to follow the rules and can't be a kind of maverick cop in the way that she was with the motherhood aspect I think that character you know who's with her young son I just felt so passionate about those scenes and about how it would feel and how terrifying it would be.

49:33And I think it just all helps, all of the emotion, all of the experience that you have, the more you have of it that feels close to the surface and passionate just gets put into the work. It ends up feeling very visceral, I think. Yeah, hopefully, yeah. I know you said about the super focus, but how did you find the juggle? Do you write at home? I write, honestly, wherever I can. I mean, the other day I was finishing script and I realised I was sitting on the edge of the bath while my son was in the bath. I was watching him, but sort of typing with one hand, trying to finish the script. So I've written in cars, on trains, planes, home, bed, floor, cupboard, anywhere I need to do it, because the deadlines in TV are so relentless and crazy.

50:19You just have to get it done. And in those early days, were you at home while you're... I'd always tried to write at home while my mother-in-law was with the baby, but I would just be so aware of the baby in the house. And if there was a cry, I'd be like, he needs me. And it's very hard to switch off. Yeah, I was at home, either he was with either you or my mum, who was amazing. And it was really hard to switch off, yeah, it was. But I actually feel like if he's with you, I can switch off more. There's just that, I don't know, that feeling of parental confidence, like you and me are in it together.

50:53And so that's the sort of most peaceful space I would get into if he was with you. I mean, I really trust my mum as well. But, yeah, it's really hard. It's just innate, isn't it? It's primal, that hearing that cry and thinking, I've got to go. I wonder if there's also a feeling between you two of this subliminal, well, we did this together. Whereas with your mum, is that the feeling of putting this on you? Total guilt. That's the feeling that would interrupt, actually. Whereas with you, I don't feel guilty. I'm like, it's yours. Yeah, get on with it. If you could write a letter on parenthood, who would it be to and what would you say?

51:27I would write to everyone out there who wants to have children but hasn't had them yet to go and travel the Greek islands immediately. That's good. It's a solid letter. Because you're not going to do it for a while. You're really not. And you're not going to do it in the same way. And I haven't done it. And I want everyone else to do it for me. Is that the thing? Because for me it was not watching A Star Is Born. I mean, I cried over the fact that I couldn't watch it. I phoned the cinema, they said I couldn't bring my baby to watch it. But I thought you did watch alongs with the babies. No, no, no, it's got to be over 15.

52:04Is Greece the thing for you? You're just like, ah, didn't it? I mean, we just went to Greece with our baby, but I'm like looking at the islands on the horizon, just the fairies going between. It looks so easy. That like happy, free, just you and the horizon feeling. Instead of, like, the massive suitcase full of, like, you know, trucks and baby food. It is mainly trucks. Rick? So, in a way, I'm sort of writing a very long one currently that's to our son but also for me, which is just about the fact that I have a really bad memory. They just do. or I've got a bad memory for stuff that's happened in my life.

52:57I've got quite a good memory for trivia. Yeah, useless. Yeah, useless trivia. Like pie to a certain number. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good for a pub quiz. Oh, my God, he's all over that, but he can't remember essential details about our lives. Yes, yeah, yeah, that's completely fair. And I was like, oh, God, I don't want to forget anything about this. And so I've just been writing a kind of journal. that is, yeah, it's like partly addressed to him, but sort of about what he's up to, but it's really for me so that I can read back over it. You're like Meghan Markle sending eight million emails to her children.

53:33Did you see that? I try not to compare myself to Meghan Markle too much. She emails her children at the eye. But I do love to make jam. What's your favorite choice in your jam? Yeah, I suppose at some point, I will show it to him and hope he can read my writing. Hope he can read. Can't read yet. Big yet. Big yet. Yeah. And hopefully it'll be quite funny for him to look back on. I think it will. Yeah. Hopefully. Stuff like he currently calls his water pistol his water piss pool. Yes. Yes, he does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he's just started. So I'm a Liverpool fan, but he was. family are all Arsenal and her dad and brother are season two holders and they go and so it's been a sort of ongoing battle about whether he's going to be a Liverpool fan or an Arsenal fan if he ends up being a football fan at all and I am very much losing that battle and it feels like he's going to be an Arsenal fan to the extent that on holiday and sort of out of nowhere he started doing an Arsenal chant and he's doing it quite a lot He loves it.

54:46And he really loves it I don't know if he realises is that he's winding me up. But he's doing it with his chest to be fair. Ooh, ooh, ooh to be, ooh to be a gooner. You hear that quite a lot. I mean, it's a good chant. No, it is a good chant. Great chant. I don't want to hear it, you know, 16 times a day from my son, but that is currently what's happening. So, yeah, that's getting written down. Just start singing our forever-blown bubbles. You'll be fine. It's got a lovely melody. I think we'll catch on. We end the podcast with you completing three sentences. The first one is being a dad or being a mum means?

55:22Cleaning the floor more than I ever thought possible. God, it is mad, isn't it? So much time. I'm just always on the floor. So much time. So much food on the floor that we've painstakingly cooked. I think for me, being a dad is just completely reframing your outlook on life. So you just have this one massive priority. and that is the prism that you have to view every decision through and that's huge. It really is. There's not really any decision that we make in our lives now where you don't have to think, ah, but what about? And is this good or bad or indifferent? And that's ever-present. That's just sort of constant.

56:09I quite like it actually. Do you? Yeah, it gives you a sort of clarity. It gives you clarity and it gives you a reason to say no. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's kind of like, actually, I really don't want to do this. But also, it doesn't... It's slightly coping enthusiasm that you realise that having a child can catch you out of quite a lot of things. You're like, ah, unfortunately, he's a bitter. Yeah, I feel so good about going to bed at, like, 8pm. You just don't feel any... It's just like, that is what I want and that's what I'm going to do. Next sentence is, since having a child, I... I laugh more than I ever thought I could.

56:47He makes me laugh so much. And I think my favourite thing is having a funny new pal, you know? He's just in our house saying funny things, getting things wrong. I think he is funny. It's really hard to tell, isn't it? Because you're inevitably going to find your child funny. But I do get the feeling that he is funny. There's some stuff he does where you're like, no, that's good. That is good. Since having a child, I'm much more emotional and my emotions are just much closer to the surface than ever before. For my work, not particularly helpful. In my life, I think probably pretty good, actually, just being a bit more open with emotions and sort of what I feel.

57:36And he's definitely sort of given me that. which is amazing that something comes along decades into your life changes how you react or feel about certain situations yeah you're really protective as well so if like another kid in the playground pushes him or anything you have to really I don't know how you're supposed to deal with it you have to really hold yourself back don't you yeah we're still feeling our way through that yeah I just have to take a step back not seething yeah it's odd isn't it that yeah I think it's slightly the only child thing as well because I've grown up with my sister and all that being younger than me.

58:12There's a bit of argy-bargy and rough and tumble whereas you're watching this little thing go into the wild. You're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I won't touch him. You're definitely more like that than I am. I'm like, go on. Push him over. It'll be fun. Learn a lesson. The final sentence is, I'm happy when? Slightly similar to one of yours, actually. But I'm happy just when he laughs. It's just great. It's just great. And he's quite ready to laugh, I would say. And it's a very, very pure joy as he's giggling. And we're all giggling. And you're like, this is ideal. I love this. He's ready to laugh any second.

58:51And you're ready to cry. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That actually really does sum those two up. Yes, it does. For me. Yeah. Yeah. Although he's currently quite ready to do his fake cry. He's just developed. He sticks his tongue out and goes, ah. Yeah. It can't quite work out. Which is really funny as it is. But yeah, and like want something. The tongue is a giveaway.

59:18I've had an interesting relationship with happiness recently because I think, especially in the last two years, trying to work so much and as a parent, you're always trying to cook or clean or organise or get somewhere. And I think I've really had to make a conscious choice to hold on to moments where I feel really happy, you know, like, and peaceful. And I almost kind of try and consciously say, I feel really happy. I'm just going to hold on to it for a second. And they're just tiny moments. I'll just be snuggling him and I'll smell his hair and I'll be like, oh, God, I feel so happy. But I think the big one is like Sunday morning, you're not working, 8 a.m., no alarm.

1:00:02and our child has slept a bit longer. Yeah, I was going to say, he's been in for a couple of hours. Our son's not got up yet, magically. And then he comes in and we get to cuddle him. I'm like, those are those moments where I'm like, oh, wow, this is so simple. And there's nothing that special about it yet. It feels so special. I try and really just soak that up and let it sit there. So, yeah, that's happening. We need to let him know about this 8am thing. Yeah, this never happened, by the way. That's a dream. But when it does. Wow. Thank you both so much for coming in. I love the fact that we've had you both as well.

1:00:43That's been really lovely. I love it with couples because you kind of bounce memories off of each other. And I love that. And thank you for giving me the gift of Karen Pirrie. And it's the 20th of July that it's out, right? Yeah, Sunday, 20th of July, 8pm on ITV and ITVX. I cannot wait to get in the car and carry on watching. Thank you for watching it. And thanks for having us. Yeah, it's been really fun. Yeah. Thank you.