Rose and Rosie on parenthood as a same-sex couple

0:01Coming up on Happy Mum, Happy Baby I don't know if you've ever heard, but in lesbian relationships, there's one who does all the driving and one who knows horoscopes, and that's absolutely accurate. That's so accurate. He was all about Rosie to the point where I didn't exist for at least 18 months, and I found that really difficult because I put so much into everything, and I got nothing back. And it's hard for both of us because, for example, he'd only want to be carried by me, and then I'd be tired, but Rose couldn't even help me. I feel like there's a lot of pressure on us as two same-sex parents to get this right, and there's going to be a lot of opinions being like, You shouldn't have said this.

0:33You shouldn't refer to this person as that. Is it equal? Do they feel at a loss? I'm worried I'm going to make a mistake. I am. I'll tell you what I have watched. I've watched The Tear. I can't watch that. Because Rose filmed it. Rose was like, do you want to see it happen? I was like, yeah. So I've watched that and I've showed everyone. Have you? Yeah. She went to my dad like, do you want to watch it, Hayden? He was like, no, Rosie, I don't. I was like...

0:58Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's guests are officially, and I've been thinking about it on the way in, and it is officially, they are officially my favourite couple on YouTube. Oh, my God. I'm so happy to have them here. That's so nice. Thank you. It's very surprising. Thank you. Thank you for having us on. So pleased to be here. Honestly, I was thinking on the way in, and I was like, there's no one else, actually, that is above you on that. Because I just, well, I've been watching you for years. You're like two of the OGs. Stop it. No, you are.

1:28Keep going. It's lovely. But, you know, just seeing your journey and everything over the last few years, it's huge. It's been a wild one. Yeah, it's crazy. I don't know how it works. Everybody's like, how does it work? Because obviously we live together, work together. We never are apart ever because we do everything together. No, seriously. You know, we're both called Rosie, basically. We're both Gemini's. We're just kind of like the same. It is a wonder how it does seem to seamlessly flow and work. But it's still working, so it's not broke. Exactly. How are you both? Yeah. Do you know what? Tired, but less tired than usual.

2:03I think it's been an interesting nine months since Rocky, our second baby, was born. Because with our first, Siggy, we had quite an easy ride in terms of the sleep. We were quite lucky. We were like, what's the fuss about? This is easy. Well, you said I co-slept, which was like, I had a lot of like, you know, I was scared to do it. I said, I'm never going to do that when I have a baby. And then I had a baby who didn't sleep. And that sorted it. But with your baby, with Rocky. With Rocky. Yeah, that wouldn't make him sleep either. No, out of desperation. And I don't judge people that do this either.

2:33If it's safe, it's safe. But I tried co-sleeping with Rocky. He wasn't having it. And I was like, really? So not even that will work. And he just doesn't like his crib that much. So it's been interesting. Yeah, we're finally getting there now. We're getting there. So how much sleep did you have last night? Last night wasn't so bad, actually. I put him down at seven and he woke at quarter past 12. That's amazing. That is unheard of. And then I was up till half one and then he did half one till six. So pretty good. That's pretty good. That's a pretty nice stretch in. But now we're, like, tired because we're getting sleep and we're like, what's this?

3:03You can't win. Now I'm more tired. It's only if it goes again. Right? Yeah, exactly, exactly. But we're getting by. Not complaining too much, are we? No. Let's start by talking about your childhoods. Okay. Okay. Oh, God, really? Good luck. Where did you grow up? How many siblings did you have? What kind of vibe was in the house? So I was one of... One of five. Sorry, I was one of five. Yeah, I was one of five. So my mum had my brothers and me, and then my mum and dad split, and she remarried and had my half-siblings. So I had, like, step-siblings and half-siblings and siblings, and then I've got a massive family.

3:43And then everyone used to invite everyone around. We had a very open-door home. So I have to have noise going on now because I'm not used to. Really? Yeah, no, we always had the radio on and people around. Chaos. But busy. we had one bathroom with like seven of us in the house it was a bit mental I never got to school on time I was always late but there's also something really nice about the chaos yeah you know yeah there's something nice and like things like Christmases and stuff were incredible I have loads of cousins we just used to all go off together and go mad so yeah it was quite magical I'd say and Rosie grew up in Malvern and I grew up in Ross and Wye and there was what they're not too far they're not too far they're 40 minutes so we had they're both a village yeah they are quite village Ross and Wye more so it's a town they're both towns but they have village vibes.

4:27Yeah, we both went to rural schools, didn't we? Yeah, exactly. Very green. Not much to do. And I'm one of three, the youngest. And I've got an older brother and an older sister. I quite like being the youngest, actually. I got away with a lot more than anybody else did in the family. So I was the youngest, but then my mum had more. So I was the baby, yeah. And then I wasn't. That's weird. That's weird. That's a weird position to be in. I always think that for the youngest, when subsequent babies come along, it must be so weird to start to go, hold on, my role has changed, right? Yeah, it was weird.

4:54Yeah. My role has remained the same. Get away with everything, bit cheeky, probably the favourite. Did you ever look ahead to your future and see yourself having a family? No, not really. No, I didn't either. No, I never thought about it for ages. I think also because maybe being young, I wasn't conscious that I was gay being in primary school. So it wasn't really something that I thought about, having a husband, you know, and children. It wasn't really something I thought about. And even when we met, I asked you about marriage on our first date and you were like, well, it's not legal, it'll never happen.

5:35Well, see, that's the thing, right? It must be so weird even having those thoughts when you were younger, kind of going, but no one's doing it. We can't do that. No, I never thought, because I'm not gay, so I didn't know, I never thought I'd end up with a woman. and it's just been a complete surprise this whole journey but I should go with the flow, you know. I'm in it now. Yeah, yeah, there you go. It's what it is. So, yeah. But did you ever want to have children? I actually really didn't. No, I really didn't. That's good. Because I think my mum's had a lot of struggles, you know, and I think, and also when my mum had my half-siblings, you know, I was kind of older, so there's a 13-year age gap between me and my little sister, so I did a lot of hands-on, you know, I helped, you know.

6:14And so I think I just thought... You've done that. At the time, I think I felt like children are a bit of a burden. Do you think differently now? I completely think differently. But also, being a 13-year-old, that's your childhood, and all of a sudden these little ones have come in, and they're taking up not only your attention. They're a bit annoying. Me and my sister, who's got the 13-year age gap, we're so close, we've never had an argument once. Really? Yeah, and she's grown up now. She's a qualified teacher, so it's wild. She's old now. Rose met her when she was eight so she'll always be eight to Rose.

6:48That makes me feel a hundred years old. Yeah, no, so I didn't, we didn't. But also that thing of having this family that is full of chaos and going, yeah, actually, now I just want to Yeah, I just wanted to do my own thing for a bit. Yeah, so I didn't really think about it and I think actually we had children quite late in our relationship, you know. Yeah, I guess we did. How long have we been? Ten years. Well, no, when Ziggy was born in 2021 and we got married in 2015. I can't do maths. I can't do maths. Especially today. We've been together, I think over 10 years. Yeah. We had. So at what point in your relationship did you start going, oh.

7:21Well, it's different for a same-sex couple because you have to really think about how you're going to do it. You have to talk about it. You've got to plan it. You can't just have an accident. You can't. And you have to really plan it to the effort to detail. And budget it, really, because it's expensive to make babies when you can't naturally make babies. And the whole process was surprisingly complicated. And there wasn't one easy pathway of information. Well, that's the thing. So when you decide to start looking into it, where do you go? Well, we didn't know. So we randomly had a friend who had a lawyer and they were like, this lawyer's gay and has had children, so why don't you have a meeting with her?

7:55So we had a random meeting with her. And we were like, what did you do? How did you do it? And then we just like literally copied her path. And she was like, well, I went to this open day at this place, which was in Brighton. We're nowhere near, but we went down to Brighton. It was a clinic open day. Yeah, I went to the open day at the clinic. And they were talking about how sperm banks works, which ones you can use. But I had no idea. there were so many legalities around sperm donors shipping some sperm to different countries eligibility you know it's a real factor and it's really tricky really really hard we thought you could just look up like how do I have a baby and I remember we were in the Cotswolds at the time and I rang this clinic and said like oh I think I need IVF and they were like well you don't know if you need it and I was like I think I do because not another way they just assumed that you had a fertility issue right so for us it was tricky just knowing which way to go also I guess it's hard as well because of all those legalities but those legalities also keep it safe, right?

8:44Yeah, of course. Because I did a segment for Steph's Back Lunch years ago and I went to a fertility clinic and met a sperm donor and then I met another mum who had basically found someone on Facebook. Right. Because there's so many people on Facebook who just, you know, want to help other people. And not everyone can afford it as well. Exactly, and they want to help other people have children because that's what they long for. Of course. But there is then that, it's hard, it's tricky because how do you know that everyone is safe in that situation? Well, that's it. It is tricky. And also throughout the sperm banks too, the whole sort of IVF journey for us.

9:13I mean, you know, how vetted is it? I mean, look at that Netflix documentary with the guy that had 1 ,000 children. And, you know, technically you're not allowed to register onto multiple sperm bank websites, but you managed to because no one's vetting it. So there's lots of questions, aren't there? I think you can worry about every single thing, though, can't you? You can sit there and spiral about it, but ultimately you've just got to kind of trust. You've got to trust the process to some degree. And do what feels right, yeah. When we went to visit the sperm bank that we used, they used fingerprint ID when they drop off the sperm.

9:41So it's not everyone, which makes sense because obviously you can't leave your sperm there. But we saw them using the fingerprint. I thought it was very James Bond. It was very MI5. Yeah, it was good. So from the open day, how did you then go, right, this is the route that we're going to start with? Well, first things first, we picked our sperm bank and we decided to go with them. And then they had kind of like a pathway that was more obvious. But we didn't know that you couldn't just do everything at the sperm bank. You have to find a clinic. The clinic that's willing to accept that sperm. from that sperm.

10:12And there were laws about what sperm you can and can't have. And also, it took us a year to pick our sperm donor, which we weren't expecting that. We were like, oh, we'll just get the sperm. Yeah. We were like, you know, they'll be like, yeah, online shopping. What fails on. Well, Liv's Alone has been in before and talked about her process. Right. She did it all on her own, so therefore also had to go through IUI and find a sperm donor. And she was like, it was almost like you're looking at like a brochure. Exactly. It's just online. Exactly. And the more you pay, like most things, the more information you get.

10:40And for us, I mean, adult pictures were a game changer. Yeah, because most websites show the donor as a child, I guess, so you get an idea of what your child might look like. But if you pay a bit more, you see what they grow up into. Which is also hard because then it's a business, isn't it? Oh, it's such a business, it is. But also, it's funny because some babies don't look anything like how they look like as adults. It's crazy, people change. And it's not what you expect. Do you get the baby photo first and then the adult? Yeah, you do. Not everyone has adult photos. We were fortunate because we found, we actually found a donor whose profile we adored.

11:14Very empathetic, very sensitive. Just we loved the way they spoke about things, obviously quite self-reflective. And we thought, well, that's nice. I really like that. Quite conscientious sounding. Don't forget, before we found our one, we found someone we thought was the one. Because we were like, right, Rose is going to go first in her journey because she's a little bit older. And that was the only way we decided it, really. Thanks. But we were like, OK, you go first. and Rose found a donor that she thought looked like me so we were like oh well then it'll be like me and you have had a baby this is another layer to the story and so we were like we really like this donor and then we called up and asked the clinic about it and he was what was the name for it they call them exclusive and I said to the sperm bank what does that mean and she said well between you and me it's what we think is good looking and I thought well how subjective that is first of all but it also meant that you had to buy out the entire lot of But he couldn't sperm donor to anyone else.

12:08Like he was in an exclusive relationship with you almost. He was yours exclusively. Was it 47 euros? It was 70 ,000 euros to do it. And I said, I just can't do that. And also, how do you know that he's allowed to father children in his own private family, but just not on the internet? But he could have... Not from a sperm bank. I mean, I don't know, but he could be going to the club and having a one-night stand every day. You don't know, do you? You could have many children. I was like, do you know what? No, I can't do that. So we were back on the, and that was hard, wasn't it? Because we were like, we finally found someone that picked every box.

12:38Because we were set on this guy. We didn't realise he was€70 ,000. And we were like, do you know what? I can't afford it. Yeah. So we found the next best thing. He might look like you, but come on. Yeah, exactly. But the one that we chose, really, really lovely. And we're really, really pleased. And not exclusive, so cheaper. Not cheap, but cheaper. Yeah. And it just seemed to really work. With things like this as well, is there any help, NHS, in terms of funding it? I think there is. But I asked my NHS doctor, and they were like, I don't know, at the time. They were like, I don't know. But then we had a friend reach out who knew you, who was like, I did the whole thing on the NHS.

13:10Oh. Yeah. So I think it's dependent on your postcode. It's something I just don't understand. It is different. Yeah. So I don't know is the answer, which is not very helpful. No. So we paid privately for sperm. Yep. And we paid for IVF. I did IUI, roasted IVF. I was very fortunate in my IVF journey, though, because, you know, I had my eggs harvested. I hate that word, but it's true. Harvested. And I was lucky enough to get some, first of all. and then I had three that fertilised into the blastocysts. Yeah. And they were all really good grades. So I've still technically got two after Rocky using one.

13:41Which is another dilemma because, like, what do you do with the two on ice? It's so stressful. It's really stressful. Because if you don't use them, they will need to eventually destroy them or they give them to science. I don't love either of those options, to be honest. But if you don't want any more, there's so many ethics around it. I mean, I have obviously been stalking you. And I know that that is something that's still up for discussion. Yeah. Rosie, I know that you've been a bit like, well, I'd go again. But if you go again, Rose will be like, well, I'll go again. Yeah, exactly. At the moment, I think the equilibrium of having one each, both boys, is quite a nice energy, isn't it?

14:20Yeah, I think we finally reached a point where we were like, I think we're fine as we are. It's so difficult also. So this is another thing. so Rose has got two of her own eggs plasticists ready made and then all I have is a vial of the same sperm left that's it so I would have to do IVA well let's unpack that a little bit because Rose you started with IUI I did so I started with IUI and fortunately I got pregnant first time with IUI we were like wow it's meant to be but then I did have a miscarriage but you also had that thought of it's too good to be true it was too good to be true but I also thought no it's happening because it's supposed to happen And so actually, I just thought, oh, you know.

14:58And normally I'm quite, I'm a bit pessimistic and Rosie's really positive. But this time I was like, no, this is absolutely meant to be. So when I was told that it wasn't a viable pregnancy and that I'd lost it at about six weeks and I would have a miscarriage, I couldn't really believe it. And naively, I thought, well, I just never thought that would happen to me. I think as well, because we were doing, because you were doing IUI, they obviously do so many scans and checks and tests and they were like, you're fertile, you're ready, you're healthy, blah, blah, blah. On paper it was perfect. Yeah, on paper it was perfect.

15:24So there was no reason, you know, there was nothing. But there isn't a reason. And at the time, you know, I knew nothing about, I mean, I don't know how many people know much about miscarriage even now. I mean, I think it's spoken about much more now, which is great. But you were also going through all of that during the very first chunk of COVID and lockdown. That's it. We were locked down. And we just started our podcast about being parents. And it was the third episode in, I had to be like, well, actually, I'm going to have a miscarriage. And at that time, I don't think I'd actually had the miscarriage because I was told, oh, you know, it's going to be like a heavy period.

15:57And I was like, oh, OK, fine. No. But also you would have to wait. So here's another thing. So she was told the pregnancy wasn't viable. We had early scans because we did IUI and they do that. Yeah. So we were like, OK. So we had to like prepare for that. And then it didn't happen. And then we were in lockdown, right? In COVID. So we couldn't go anywhere. And it wasn't happening. Yeah. So then we were looking at like clinics. like is there somewhere we can go like to sort this out because you couldn't have so normally people get the choice to have it um what's the procedure yeah dnc yeah we didn't have the option because covid they wouldn't allow it so you couldn't get a dnc but you could have um i only found this out later but you could get ill yeah when you don't miscarry but we kind of didn't have enough support really because of lockdown i mean i think i miscarried quite late in relation to when the baby actually died the baby didn't survive past five and a half six weeks but i miscarried at 12 weeks 12 weeks which is why I think maybe I don't know it's different for everybody isn't it but it was so incredibly painful and scary and it it was a long time so I've gone back to you old because you do so it lasted nine days it did it did it lasted nine days and it was incredibly painful you know we weren't expecting we didn't know you had contractions and stuff oh no I never knew that was going to happen so when I had my first contraction I remember I was in the middle of the night I didn't wake you up and I was just there squeezing a cup because I thought I don't know what's happening like this is excruciatingly painful is this normal and you know and I hate to be graphic but when you when you pass blood clots the size of golf balls or lemons you think well I'm gonna die I'm dying you know it's frightening because no one told me that's what would happen in fact I remember and I spoke about on our podcast when I spoke to a nurse who was kind of preparing me for for the miscarriage first of all she whispered like have you ever had one before and I was like why are we whispering it's just you me in the room it's all right and she was like it might be a bit painful excruciatingly so actually and I was like oh okay but I didn't really think much of it because I was in such a oh you know I emotionally I was kind of not over it but I'd made peace with it by then but I hadn't miscarried it so the physicality of going through that brought quite a lot of emotion actually and I didn't realize I would pass have something to pass and and bury so that was a process wasn't it I also think on top of all of that it's COVID you just wanted to see your mum or I did family and we're just stuck inside kind of not really knowing what to do not sure whether to go to the hospital or not is it safe yeah and then on top of all of that obviously like you know we've kind of we'd like paid to get pregnant you're going on this whole journey that you're like oh so it's even more business and resentment around it you know but did you after that did it take you a while to kind of try again did you try iui again you know i did actually i tried twice the second time i believe i had a chemical pregnancy because i had a line we had a positive pregnancy test and then that went away.

18:43It was ambiguous, but I think it probably was. And then that, yeah, and then I came to my period and I was like, oh, okay. And I tried a third time and that just didn't happen because I was, I have quite a, is it a long or a short, is it like a luteal phase? Luteal. Luteal, because I got PCOS. Yes. So my whole cycle's a bit messed up. Yeah. So that was also a bit of a concern. Because you have to wait to ovulate for IUI. So obviously it was taking ages as well. It was, lots of delays. And then also we were running out of sperm as well. We were running out of sperm. Because again, I'm going to say straw.

19:09Is it straw? Yeah, it's straw. And with that, so every time you do an IUI, you use a whole straw. That's exactly right. So I'd used three and I had four left. I thought it's not fair for me to continue. But also it was the sperm we'd bought for both of us to have a family. Exactly, exactly. So that's why we decided to switch, which was obviously a really difficult decision. But then we decided when I was trying, so I did IUI, we realised that because Rose has a longer cycle, it works where if I wasn't pregnant, Rose would be ovulating kind of like two weeks later. so we said okay let's do a roulette where literally i'll go and if it's not for me i'll have my period you go and then if it's not for you i'll go and we'll do it like that but you got pregnant the second time because i i said i said i'm not gonna go i'm not gonna try when you should have a second try because that's too many goes for me so hard because you're burning through straws right exactly and there wasn't any more that's all we had at the time and our donor has now stopped donating So all I've got is my one straw left, which is why if I wanted a child that was biologically mine, I'd have to do IVF because one straw can fertilise many, many.

20:15It's amazing, actually. Yeah, if you do it via IVF. So, yeah, it's so complicated. But the IVF route is obviously the most expensive. It is, very. Is that the thing that's kind of held you back from, I know you've done it, Rose. Yeah. Is that the thing that's held you back, Rosie? I think, I wasn't too fussed, but I think they just said, you know, you can do IUI, and I thought, oh, just try it. It's like a lottery, isn't it? You kind of shoot it up and see what sticks, literally. Like, sorry to be so graphic. And I was fine with that. And I think Rose was actually, Rose did IUI at the beginning, obviously.

20:45For anyone who doesn't know, IUI, you're basically putting the sperm where you need it to be. Like a cow. Yeah, putting it inside. They look at it on a screen. It's incredible. They've, like, got your womb on a screen. And they have an X where they want the sperm to go. And they put it exactly there. And I said, why? You know, and then it can either go kind of right or left to either ovary, you know. They know what they're doing. That's amazing. They do. It's quite an incredible process. But obviously with IVF, you're statistically more, well, it's higher chances of being successful. But it's so expensive.

21:15But also I think you were off by injecting yourself, being hormonal, being floated, being swollen. And I worry about that sort of thing. But I'm actually quite proud of myself because I was like, you know what? No, I'm going to do it. I'm going to inject myself. I'm going to do it. And I did. She was amazing. I did. At the end, I was like, whatever, you know. You don't love needles. I don't love anything like that, really. but no one likes it do they but then actually it became like just routine and it really wasn't Rose was working you know she was editing and then she'd be like oh it's time my alarm's gone off straight in that's work you know you handled it amazing thank you you were amazing you know it became quite like an enjoyable process at the end you know I was like right on it you know let's get there so Rosie what was it like when you found out that you were pregnant it was amazing I remember the exact moments and I'd done a test the day before I kept doing naughty tests early so you were meant to wait until a certain amount of time And I didn't.

22:04Okay. Neither of us did. And so I'd done it the day before and it had said no. So I was like, I'm not. And I did the test and was like, I'm not going to be and put it down. And Rose was like, it says yes. I can remember exactly. It's just like, even if you get the faintest line, it's so exciting because you know. Because you don't get a line if you're not. You know it's going to be. It was incredible. Did you panic a little bit? I didn't, but I did in my pregnancy. I did. Yeah. In my pregnancy, I did. Well, when I was being inseminated, the nurse said to me, she had had children. I think like via IVF I think she might have been a lesbian woman and she was inseminating me and she said to me oh yeah when I got pregnant I thought what have I done?

22:42What have I done? I was like why are you telling me? It's stressing me out. That's what you want to hear when you're lying and there would be legs open like right. Yeah it was so stressed. But also that moment you kind of feel like maybe you should be full of zen to help everything be a bit more hospitable. You think? No they put music on and they do try and make it chilled out. Also as well another thing is in COVID we couldn't be there with each other so when Rose first did IUI and got pregnant we were there together that was the only time we were there together we took some selfies of the moment you know it was amazing how many inseminations have we done alone so you did two one of them was successful I was outside with a puppy yeah we had a lockdown puppy so she brought the dog and then I was obviously inseminated twice after my miscarriage you weren't there and then I actually got pregnant with Rocky you weren't there got to get into the mental space of being like right I'm going to do this alone that's okay we'll just go for it it's weird you know you go in and you're in a clinical setting, they've got a big light over you.

23:33It's a bit like having surgery because you lie back and it's a very strange experience. Yeah. Very quick though. Did it help almost subsequent times kind of knowing what that set up is? Yeah, definitely. You knew the drill. You go into a little room to put your gown on and freshen up and then lie back. And then just lie back and just enjoy the process as much as you can. But it's literally, I mean, it's no longer than a smear test, to be honest. My bad, worse smear tests. It doesn't take a lot of trouble at all. And even there, they're okay. So, no, it didn't take long. I think that's not hard.

24:01It's always, with anyone trying to get pregnant, I think it's the two-week wait. It's just unbelievably hard. Which is why you both tested early. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I cannot wait. We're terrible. We open our Christmas presents early, don't we? Do we? Oh, yeah. Oh, and we put our Christmas tree up in October. Oh, I agree. I can't wait out of things. I'm impatient. I just feel like I'd rather put it up in October and take it down on Boxing Day. Yeah, that's what we do. If you're going to do it, do it. Yeah, exactly that. So, during your pregnancy, how did you feel? Did you have any symptoms? How did you feel about the birth?

24:31Yeah. Well, again, I was in lockdown, so I think I had a bit of a strange experience. I think I was pre-diabetic. My midwife was like, I think you're pre-diabetic. And they sent me to go get tested. And I went to Stroud randomly. And then they were like, no, we're not going to test you. Because of COVID. No one was seeing anyone. It starts a little bit. The baby's measuring large. You put on a little bit of weight. I say a little bit. It was five stone. And everything added up to that's gestational diabetes. but you never had clarification or confirmation about that, did you? Yeah, I'll never know, really.

25:01Because it was COVID, so we don't know. But you were quite sick, wasn't you? Yeah, I had terrible morning sickness. It was horrible. I threw up everywhere. It was terrible morning sickness. But, you know, you get through it. So I really wanted a home birth. I wanted this really natural birth. That's what I wanted. Rose's just sort of almost tickling to herself. It just went so horribly wrong. Yeah, it's just we've got very sick things. Rose, you are hilarious throughout it. You really like cracking the jokes. I tried to keep the spirits high, guys. You know, it was a horrible situation for you both.

25:30Well, they said I could have a home birth. They gave me the all clear. So at home, I'm having contractions and I call them up and I'm like, I'm having contractions. I'm in labour. And they were like, no, we don't think you are. Yeah, exactly. Because I was fine. But I was doing hypnobirthing and I was so into the breathing. They didn't believe me. I was like, you know, and they just didn't believe me. And so Rose had to put me in a car and take me there, which wasn't what I wanted. You know, we're at the Trafford Light. I was like, you know. That's a big quiet woman. Yeah, it was terrible. I tried to concentrate.

25:58Yeah, and then we went in. They said, oh, you're six centimetres dilated. I got mine. Yeah, really? I know. I know. So it wasn't what I wanted, you know. I had a nasty third degree tear. It kind of all was, you know, it didn't go to plan. I mean, nothing ever does, but I was quite annoyed that, you know, they didn't come out. I felt not listened to throughout the whole thing. Do I have diabetes? I don't know. No one knows. Do you know, playing devil's advocate, though. Being in the dark. I think they were probably short-staffed and they didn't want to come out to the house and leave the birth unit.

26:28They didn't tell us that. Which is not your problem, I realise that, but I think that's what it was. And then obviously when you hit the 40-hour mark, because it was a maternity-led birthing unit and not a hospital. They couldn't C-section, they didn't do it there, so I would have to go in an ambulance. You would have had to have an emergency transfer and I remember looking at the clock thinking, she's got 15 minutes to get this baby out. You just see his head just shaking up. He was stuck. He was just stuck for ages. He just wasn't coming out. And it was actually insane. I didn't know this could happen.

26:52I've never heard of this happening. But I would push and he would come out a little bit and he'd go, pop back in. Pop back in. Yeah, popping back in. Like bobbing in and out. Who's heard of that? I know. Why are you going inside? Did you end up having to have forceps? No, I just talked. She just burst in half. I just did a massive, massive push and I wasn't contracting. Because they were like, we're going to put you in an ambulance. And he was in me, you know. It was a lot of stress for you because there was time pressure. And it was so painful. It was like the ring of fire forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

27:15Oh no, it was terrible. He was crying for 11 minutes. Yeah, 11 minutes. It was hard. Yeah, so I just saw him. I nearly dropped the camera actually. I was filming it all in 4K. But after my experience, Rose was just like, yeah, I'm not going to do that. I was like, do you know what? I'm not going to do that. You're not going to film it. I'm not going to film it. But I thought, do you know, I was all about the holistic. Yeah, I can do it. I'll feel really accomplished by having what they call, you know, in quotes, natural, we call it a vaginal birth. And then I was like, do you know what? I'm not going to.

27:44because I saw what it did to your mental health. I felt lied to by the hypnobirthing companies. They were like, you know, your body's born to do this, you can do it, but it's like, but what about all the people who can't? What about all the people who have problems who get shoulders stuck and babies stuck and whatnot? There's obviously a reason that one in three babies are emergency C-section. One in three. Yeah, that's quite a lot, isn't it? Yeah, I feel annoyed because I understand that they're trying to empower women. It should almost be that clause, shouldn't it? because I've hit my birth three times and have all three very different births.

28:17Right. And one was an episiosomy. One was, well, the episiosomy was the worst, actually. Right. But they're all three very, very different. However, there should be that clause of every birth is different. And actually, I don't know, it's so hard because I always felt like I birthed in hospital. I didn't do it at home. Yeah. And the third time around, I kind of felt like, well, I've done it twice and it's been quite, so should I do it at home? and I was like but then it's the there's an element of the risk in my head wasn't anything to do with the actual risk of the situation it was the but this I've done it twice and it worked like it worked like that so if it's not broken yeah like would I be tempting fate by going I just want to do it at home and be like an earth mother yeah you know what I mean because of that thing in your head yeah I do I completely get it but there is that thing isn't it I think like hypnobirthing has its place but there also has to be maybe an also sense of reality within that so that people don't then feel like they've failed.

29:18I agree. Because the affirmations are like, I can do this. And it's like, but some people actually can't. And it's like, there's a reason they invented a few sections years and years ago, hundreds of years ago. Watching the video back, what is it like? Because I've not got videos of me contracting and on gas and air or anything like that. What is it like looking back at that video? Have you actually watched it since it's online? Yeah, I don't think I've watched it. I don't think you can. No, I don't really watch, although I'll tell you what I have watched. I've watched The Tear, which obviously wasn't in the video.

29:52It wasn't in the video. It was not online, but obviously because Rose filmed it, Rose was like, do you want to see it happen? I was like, yeah. So I've watched that and I've showed everyone. Have you? Yeah, I'd be like, you know, my sister-in-law, she's like, yeah, go on then. She went to my dad, like, do you want to watch it, Hayden? He was like, no, Rosie, I don't.

30:09so I've watched that how does that make you feel when watching that part of it all I don't know well it's obviously so my son's nearly he's nearly four now so you know it's a long time away now so I guess it's okay you know I can feel better about it how early in the process did you watch it? pretty much straight away actually yeah I wanted to see what happened because I felt it happen I didn't see anything because I'm on all fours looking the other way you said it actually felt like relief yeah it did feel like relief actually Because he could come out. Yeah. Because he was stuck, you know, and it's so painful.

30:39Yeah, so, yeah, it was relief. I wonder if also that is almost sort of validating to watch. Yeah. To kind of understand that is what your body, that's also what your body had to do. Yeah. It did it. Yeah. Oh, I did it. Yeah. Well, there you go. But, you know, your physical recovery was really good. Yeah. Because she had to go immediately. She didn't get her nice toast. She didn't get that in the golden hour. No, I said, can I have something to eat? Can I have a cup of tea? They wouldn't give me anything. so then I had to sit in an ambulance. I had to sit. So you had to go to somewhere else to get sewn up?

31:09Yeah, because they couldn't perform C-sections or do surgery. So I had to go straight to surgery, so I didn't get that toast, didn't really get that time with the baby. And they handed me the baby, and they were like, there you go. And I was like, don't leave me alone. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. And Rose did, Rose changed his first nappy. Did you all get into trouble together, though? No. I actually had to go off in an ambulance with Ziggy. So I was alone. And went to surgery. And then what was so annoying about the surgery is, they obviously gave me the same, an epidural, which is what I you know I tried to avoid epidural so I had an epidural I had surgery and I had all the stitches and I thought why didn't I just have a seizure hindsight's a wonderful thing isn't it you know I've always said you made the right decision for you based at the time where you know you had exactly and you know with the information that you had you know you would have probably made the same decision again

32:04So what was it like then leaving the hospital or hospitals and then going home? You went into shock. Yeah, I went into shock. Yeah, I had a bit of a panic attack. Yeah, I came home and, oh God, Rose's mum was so amazing. So Rose's mum came around and cleaned our house. I love this. Well, it didn't need cleaning because I'd been nesting, but she cleaned my mucus plug out of the bath because I'd been labouring at home. She cleaned my mucus plug. Did you have a moment of suddenly going, gosh, where did I leave that mucus plug? No, I knew it was taken care of. And she made a meal. she made you I was annoyed at the time she made you food after you've been obviously you know the labour went on and on and on and you've been there and you hadn't eaten she made you a salad I was like oh that's what I want I was like you need like a burger that's lovely some air but it was actually a delicious salad wasn't it do you know what it was it was absolutely delicious and I wouldn't have it any other way but no she cleaned the whole house got your mucus pug out the way she's not scared of anything mum and I remember I was learning to breastfeed so I just took my top off in front of Rose's mum and I'm because I'm an open person she was brilliant helping me and you just started shaking didn't you yeah eyes went into shock yeah and I was going I don't want to go back to hospital I think I just couldn't process what had happened it had gone so quickly yeah and even when when I had my surgery after I'd given birth so it was literally I gave birth right that's happened after like three days of labour then get in the ambulance and go have the surgery and when I was having the surgery I couldn't like focus on that because I had like people sewing up my inside so I had to like talk to the anesthetist so we were chatting so i'm not processing i'm like oh and he was telling me that he's getting married and i was like oh that's so cool talking about his marriage so like it's like i hadn't thought about anything so i finally got home i was like oh my god like the reality of like what the heck and you've got to you know get into that role immediately haven't you did the breastfeeding happen straight away yeah it did it works quite well i thought i had a good journey until rose breastfed and then i'm like you had an amazing journey because i got i I was constantly getting mastitis.

34:00Oh, really? Just constantly. You were worried at first, actually. You struggled the first few days, I think. And then it was just fine. You got worried nothing was coming out. Absolutely fine then. But I think it was a little bit of stress. Yeah. And obviously, you know, you went through this huge ordeal and you didn't have time, I think, to process what you'd been through before having to be, like we just said, straight into mum role. And I think that's when it took a bit of a hit to your mental health, didn't it? And also things like we sold our house four months after I'd given birth. We sold it four months after and then moved to a couple months later.

34:27It was a lot of change at one point. Yeah, we had a lot going on and there was stuff going on in my personal life and it was just a whirlwind. And obviously, also I gave birth literally almost on the day, I think, it might have been on the day or the day after that COVID was lifted. So we'd gone through the miscarriage, the pregnancy and the birth in COVID. And then everyone was free. Immediately, it went from lockdown to, oh, you just normally talk to one another. And I was like, my baby's going to die. And that's overwhelming in itself. It was. It was. It was something to get used to. Yeah. And I think also because you're such a positive person, and I'm probably actually less positive than you, it was such a shock when Rosie got postpartum depression, wasn't it?

35:04Postpartum depression. Naively, again, it's like with the miscarriage. You just don't think it's going to happen to you. I won't have a miscarriage. It's just not going to happen. Yeah, no, it's a statistic for a reason. It just happens. It's just one of those things. I was like, I'm a happy person. But obviously people don't bring it on themselves, obviously. They can't help it, obviously. And I never felt like that in my life. I'd never been a depressed person. and I'm such a positive person. It's who I am. It wasn't depression at first, though, was it? It was more anxiety. It was extreme postpartum anxiety.

35:32Always worrying that you're doing the wrong thing. You know, what if something happened to Ziggy? What if it was your fault? All of these things. It was the extreme responsibility. I worried that any single move I made would negatively impact him. You know, who can cope with that? And to a certain extent... How can you make a move if you're worried every single thing is wrong? And I just didn't know what I was doing, like any mother, and because of the lockdown and because of things, you know, I just didn't really feel like I had anyone to lean on. Obviously, I have Rose, but obviously you're a new mum too.

36:02We both don't know what we're doing. Yeah, yeah. It was tough. And you were navigating it as the other mother as well. So you were like, Rose was like, how much do I tell Rose what to do? Even though it's our child. Yeah, Rosie. It does our child. You're Rosie. And I'm the same with your child, though. Like, it's our child. Yeah, of course. But you refer to each other as the other mother or the biological mother. Do you know, it's funny, there's some contention around that, I think, in the language that we use. But if I say... Some people don't like it. I mean, if I say your baby. But the thing is, we had to make it clear on the podcast because of whose egg we were using.

36:36Right. And when you're podcasting and people can't see as well, you can't see you pointing at someone always. So we say your biological baby. But I think some of our audience think, oh, you know, they're both your babies. Which they are. Of course they are. And we love them genuinely now. And I mean it completely equally. And, you know, being candid, you never know. we didn't know we didn't know what it would be like and I can hand on heart say that there is no difference in terms of my levels of love for our children none but there is a difference in the level of responsibility I feel like might come through genetics and you think oh is that my fault because they're my biology but also what you do with the children because like for example I co-slept and I worried about it the whole time obviously anxious and there's lots of scary stuff online about it I tried to do it as safely as I possibly could worried every night and then you know you didn't want to do that I'm not going to force you to do that you know so it's like where's where does the input our rule is that we discuss everything and make decisions as you know a couple about our children but ultimately we say that the biological mother has the ultimate say of what that of their biological track they came from your gut that's how we work now whether people like that or not it's just the way that we work and being the other mother was actually much more difficult than I thought it would be.

37:50Well, because there's nothing out there to show you how to do it. Yeah, no, exactly. And I felt almost a little bit fraudulent saying that that was my son when he was first born, because I thought, well, I've just watched my wife break in half getting this baby out. So when someone came up to me, we're in Monmouth, and I was pushing him, and he was eight weeks old. And they went, oh, he's lovely. I said, thank you. And she said to me, God, you bounce back. And I went, thank you. How do you explain? Thanks. It was too much to explain. So I was like, yeah, I did. So I felt really guilty for that.

38:19I was like, oh, that's... It's confusing. You know, it is. And it was tricky with Ziggy because he was so attached to you. So there was a phase where you called me favourite face mummy because he'd seen me and he'd laugh loads and I was the one that made him laugh. And I was the milkmaid. Great. I'll be the comedian. Brilliant. But then it was just, he was all about Rosie to the point where I didn't exist for at least 18 months and I found that really difficult. That was so hard. I put so much into everything. and I got nothing back. And it's hard for both of us because, for example, he'd only want to be carried by me and then I'd be tired but Rose couldn't even help me by holding him for a bit because he'd just want to come back to me and it's like, oh, what's the, you know, he's just going to scream.

38:57Yeah, I know. And it was tough but now he's at the age where, you know, it's so much fun because you can have a conversation with him, you can reason with him, you can ask him about his day and he really does value both of us, I hope. But yeah, being the other mother, I didn't expect that to be difficult. Yeah. I just thought, oh, I'll just be there nine months so i mean he's not yet at the age where he's got a favorite yet really obviously

39:26but i so i had an opposite experience where like our births and everything was opposite that i found the other mother much easier because i was coming out of the trenches of the postpartum anxiety and depression and i was like i'm more confident because i know how to keep a baby be alive now I've actually done it I know I can do this yeah so I felt like I would come in confidently and and help Rose out and be like yeah look we just do this and do you feel like you have that newborn stage again where you could enjoy it a bit more this time without the horrific dread feeling like I remember um so Rose could sleep I would just he he you know like his contact naps so I would hold Rocky Ziggy would be in nursery and Rose would sleep and I'd watch TV right I couldn't do that when I was had Ziggy I couldn't even watch TV I thought oh my god he can't see a screen.

40:11But that's how insane I was. Oh, so I think that is first time around parenting, right? Yeah, and then you loosen up. Yeah. You just stop pairing by the second one. You're not a knifey. I'd have just Disney on in the background, just happy vibes, happy vibes. It wasn't for me. No, exactly. I could have been watching Real Desperate Housewives. They wouldn't have known. Yeah, exactly. I remember seeing this girl on TikTok who'd had a baby and she was just laying in bed and she was watching, I don't know, her favourite programme and she was like, this is great and the baby was just smiling at her and I wished I could have done that.

40:38I thought everything I thought I couldn't do that you know I felt guilty felt I couldn't watch TV but you know we're a bit more relaxed now Was there a point with the postpartum depression where you two sort of went something was going on or was it just a very Day one I think I remember it so you know like a couple of days later you can get the baby balloons I remember I just didn't stop I just didn't stop crying and you rang your mum you were quite worried I remember you kept poking your head round I was like no No, I think the gravity of it hit us a few weeks in, really, when I could just see that she was just spiralling quite badly.

41:16I just couldn't. Rose would get up in the morning and take him downstairs and put him in the pram. And I was like, just while she was making coffee, making breakfast, just put him there. And I was like, how do you do that? She's like, he's fine. And I'm like, he's not fine. How do you? He won't just, I don't know. I wouldn't even put him down. You had to constantly talk to him, constantly entertain him. Yeah, I thought I had to constantly be doing things. I think I've read too much online as well. Well, that's really perfect. Because you instantly feel guilty about the stuff you are or aren't doing.

41:44And so much conflicting, contradictory advice as well. Like one thing and then completely the other. And you think, well, who's right here? Well, that's like the co-sleeping. You know, I read, like, it's natural. People all over the world do it. You know, every animal does it. You know, it's what the baby wants to be close. Then it's like, don't do it. You just kill your child. And it's like, oh, what do you do? That's scary. It's so stressful. It's hard. And especially with your first. Everything's opposites. Also, when you do have that biological tie to the baby, or you've given birth, your body is reacting in a different way to the other parent.

42:14Yes, that's 100 % true. So, you know, you would be feeling things in a different way because it would, you know, force other things to kick off and different hormones and stuff. Yeah, 100%. Whereas I always feel like with Tom, he could take two out easily. It took me six months to take two of my children out at the same time. We were terrified to take two out. I remember the day we did it we're like they're both in the car they're both in the car have we ever had two of them on our own I don't know if we've ever done two of them on our own honestly it was only six months to do them on my own I don't blame you because you're probably like what if this one needs this and he could run after yeah completely get it I think women are amazing I remember seeing this really pregnant woman with a load of kids walking two massive dogs and I'm like how are you doing they were like pulling her along she was so pregnant how are you doing that I struggled so much with one just inside my head We were a boss.

43:04And one of the things I love watching actually is going on TikTok or Instagram and it'll be like, mum of seven morning routine. And they just do it. I know. With their routines. There we are. Again, we're like, I could cope with one. With two, like, God, this is hard. Yeah. You know. Did you feel a sense of relief when you realised that it was postpartum depression? Yeah, I did. I felt really good. And also, I had really good support in my area. That's like an amazing support where I just rang up and got free therapy. Yeah. I tried a lot of different things. I did hypnotherapy. I did CBT. And, you know, yeah, I just had to get through it.

43:39So it has altered my brain chemistry forever. I think I'm now a more anxious person. Yeah. And Rose, so Rose is diagnosed OCD. She's got better. Really? Yeah, you've had literally the opposite experience. But I will say, though, I don't know if that would have been the case if I'd had your birth experience. Yeah, so Rose obviously had this, because of my birth, so Rose obviously had this elective C-section. I'm not going to lie, it was easy breezy. It was amazing, really. We had so much fun. But even going into that, you know, deciding to go down the IVF route, deciding to even go again and when to go again.

44:08Yeah. That must have been really. Yeah. And so many delays. I mean, we got back from a holiday in Kefalonia and I thought to myself, I just want to start again now. I want to try. I'm ready to do this, but it's going to have to be IVF. Because I think I was putting that off as well. I was like, I don't really want to do IVF. It's invasive. It's expensive. There's lots of hurdles. I can't tell you to do it. I know. You find out a lot about your health on the way. And I was a bit nervous about even that, you know. and I got really ill when Ziggy went to nursery for the first time. We all got COVID.

44:35We got back-to-back illnesses. So in 2023, we sent him to nursery for the first time and his immune system obviously didn't have one really. So we were... COVID, COVID. Yeah, exactly. Honestly, he got COVID straight away. But also before that, we worked from home. So we never interact with people. So we had no illnesses. We had no immune system. Honestly, we were battered from it. We had rotavirus, norovirus, COVID, everything. So when I went to start IVF, they take like routine bloods and they were like, your platelets are really high and they said you know it could be a form of rare cancer and I was like yeah I was like really after everything I know I was like oh that's great I remember it was on Valentine's Day because we're having a really nice Valentine's Day and then you got that news and they were like we can't do the IVF at this time until your bloods are better so we're going to have to wait and retake them so that wait alone was like oh that's not a good start is it but it wasn't rare cancer it was it was just the fact that I'd been so ill my platelets had been risen you know and they leveled off it was fine but yeah there was that delay and then obviously you know there are so many different routes to ivf as well depending on on where you're at what your body needs there are so many different catered options which i didn't know i thought it was like one size fits all no so there's like a medicated cycle there's a natural cycle you wanted to wait for your natural cycle and then your natural cycle didn't come now your pcos so we were waiting months and months and again we're like when are we having this baby like no and they didn't want to waste an embryo on on a cycle that didn't look like it was going to take so then I did a medicated cycle so there was all that information I had to learn about more more drugs but fortunately yeah it worked first time which was obviously I was worried well that's the thing right I think any pregnancy after loss like how did you feel when you did the test obviously early I knew I was pregnant I did I knew I was pregnant I took it on boxing day and I said Rosie I just know I'm pregnant because I fell asleep on Christmas day and I'm so high alert and OCD I don't fall asleep in the day ever you know that's not in my chemistry so I was falling I thought, God, I'm tired.

46:26And then on boxing day, I remember I took the test and I was going to wait. I was just going to bring it downstairs to show Rosie the three minutes. As soon as it hit the control line, I was pregnant, like straight away. Because Rose was like, should we take it together? I was looking after Ziggy and I said, oh, you know, it takes three minutes. So like do it and bring it down. And she was like, I'm pregnant. I was like, I'm pregnant. But obviously I didn't want to celebrate too soon. And I didn't know how to feel about it. I just tried to stay positive. And then at five and a half weeks, I had a little bleed.

46:51And I thought, I ran my mum. I said, mum, come over. I'm going to have a miscarriage. It's happened again. I'm all right. This is just the way it is. It's going to happen. But it was just, what was it called? Implantation. Yeah, maybe implantation. Yeah. So that's all it was. But it was fine. It was fine. It was a lot of blood. So we. It was quite a lot. We were really scared. And then I went for my very early scan in my clinic. And she said, no, you're okay. It's a little heartbeat. I was like, oh. I mean, that must have been. That was incredible. Honestly, it was a feeling like no other. I was just like, thank you.

47:17But the thing is, it didn't last very long until the next scan, you know. So I was quite surprised that, you know, for my kind of temperament, I actually had a very relaxed pregnancy. Did you just feel anxious leading into every scan? I did feel anxious. But at the same time, one thing I've learned from this whole fertility journey for me is that you have to just let go and just let life do life. And you have to just not dig your heels in and just go with it at every stage. Easier said than done. No, it is. It is easier said than done. but I was so used to kind of failing. I thought, well, I'll just hope for the best and just try my best to relax.

47:51And I don't know how, but I managed to really have a very relaxed pregnancy. I wasn't very sick at all. In fact, I wasn't sick. I had evening sickness a little bit, but nothing to, I was never sick. You weren't actually just nauseous? Yeah, just nauseous, never sick. And only in the evening, which was so nice because you could do your work, do everything in the day and then just go to bed. I was like, right, Rosie, it's four. I'm going to bed. But no, I got through that. Okay, the only thing that I had was I'm a bit hypermobile. And at the very end in my third trimester, I think I might have broken my rib or done something to my, or dislocated it or something.

48:24My rib like popped out. But the doctor texted me like, oh yeah, you know, you're pregnant. You've just got some stretchy, stretchy muscles going on. Don't worry about it. And I was like, no, I can't walk though. Oh my God. They wouldn't see me. She was driving, right? Rose, I don't know if you've ever heard, but in lesbian relationships, there's one who does all the driving and one who knows horoscopes. And that's absolutely accurate. That's so accurate. So Rose doesn't let me drive. Not in a horrible way, but she just loves to drive. And she had this bad rib and she was driving along like this.

48:50And I was like, you know, babe, really pregnant, all on the side. And I'm like, I don't think that's safe, babe. I don't think that's safe. I know. And then three weeks later, I did my back. And I was like, oh, no. So I was literally, every time I turned around, the chiropractor said, move your feet first. I was doing these tiny steps of rotation. That was the hardest part of my pregnancy. Her rib popped out and was rubbed. She was like, I can feel it rubbing against the other ribs. And I was like, yeah, it's not supposed to do that, Rose. I don't know what I did. I don't know what I did. I actually, I do.

49:16I sneezed. It's how I got my hair. And that's how Rose had a hernia. She sneezed. That's how I am. How big are your sneezes? Quite powerful. You're just a really hyper-mobile person. Pathetic person, yeah. So with the rib, I mean, did it, once there was more space, did it go back down? It's never been the same again. It's never been the same. It crunches underneath. I don't know what, I'm going to have to get an x-ray. You need an x-ray. But something's wrong with it. I think you might have fractured it. Something's going on. But the good news is, that was the worst part of everything. That was the worst pain that I've gone through.

49:43The actual elective C-section, I've heard that it's very different when you have an elective C-section. Did you entertain the idea of a vaginal birth at all? Nope. So we had an elective C-section, so we had it scheduled, but Rose actually went into labour early. So they did say like, oh, you know, you're already having some contract. How much do you feel about doing it? They were like, do you want to give it a try? I was like, no. Still no. Of course, that's quite a big thing to do when your mind is, you know, when you think this is my route I know and then suddenly go oh no I'll do that then do you know what it was quite lovely actually because it was the C-section was booked for the 27th of August last year which was a Tuesday because there was a bank holiday I wasn't vibing with the 27th I was like I don't love that birthday so on the Saturday before which was the 24th it was a bank holiday weekend it wasn't a work day it was a weekend so we had Ziggy my water broke at 5 in the morning and I woke up and it was before it had actually broken it's like do you ever know when you're asleep and you know something's wrong and you wake up but you don't know what's going to happen it's like if you're sick or something yeah you just know your body's not happy and you're like something's going to happen I woke up and then it popped and then I was like oh my god and then I got up and then it popped again I was like wow it's actually quite a lot here and I called you from the other room because you were with Ziggy weren't you at the time you were sleeping in with Ziggy because he can't go a full night yet bless him I was like Rosie my water's broken and you knew straight away and for some reason I was really relaxed about it I was like do you know what this is lovely the fact that there was an element of spontaneity about it.

51:07I felt like he chose that day and I still had the experience of it happening out of my control but within my control. It's funny that you were chill though because, yeah, like we said, we had Ziggy at home. We'd planned for him to be in nursery. You know, we planned like drop him off, go get C-section, pick him up. You know, and it's all different. The logistics were crazy. But it was fun. We had so much fun. I had a great day. I had a lovely time. I loved wearing the scrubs. I'm obsessed with Grey's Anatomy. So I was like in my hospital environment like loving this. She made it so fun. Yeah. It was a lot of fun.

51:35But yeah, it was a Saturday. I got my parents over at six in the morning and they were so excited. My sister drove down and she was here. And then... That journey to the hospital is always such a weird one, kind of knowing that you're leaving and that life is going to alter again. And that Rosie was driving. Yeah. Oh, did you suddenly do some horoscopes? I said, Rosie, I can drive. She went, no, Rosie, you're not driving. I said, I can do it. I knew she wanted to drive herself. I did. I wanted to drive myself there. I would have driven myself back. Honestly. I think you're driving that bad. It's not...

52:04do you know it's not she just loves to drive I just don't like being a passenger I'm the world's worst most pathetic passenger I'm getting the control thing yeah I feel like I've got to concentrate more I'm like is she gonna is she seen it do you know what I mean and then she had to trust me to drive home with the baby in the car seat that was so stressful that's the most stressful part of the whole process yeah but no we got there we got there and it was such a quick process I couldn't even believe it oh god oh my god one minute one minute they cut me at 229 and they pulled them out at 230 that's how quick it did because they write it all on the board it was Dr Quick It was Dr.

52:34Quick, though, to be fair. He was out. You said as well it was like almost being rugby tackled. I didn't expect that because no one tells you about it because they obviously have to put a lot of pressure at the top or the bottom of him. Yeah, they push you, don't they? To scoop him out, you know, because you're not forcing anything. They just got to... Yeah, so I remember lying there like, oh, I went like that, and then he was out. But it didn't hurt, right? It didn't hurt. No, no, no. It's just pressure. It's like when you have a tooth out. You can feel the pressure of something but not the pain of it.

52:58And it was so quick. It's hardly... I mean, look, I can't say it's the same for everyone, But in my experience, an elective C-section was fantastic. And she was up and hoovering like a couple of days later. Don't tell them that. You're not supposed to. She does brilliantly. She's not supposed to, but Rose also passed with her. No, no, exactly. But I mean, I was quite lucky in the sense that I had a very, very easy recovery. You know, it was just super easy for me. And it's not the same for everyone. So again, I can't say everyone's different. But for me, it was brilliant. And I think that really helped going forward as well, because I had such a positive experience and an easy breezy start and a lovely one as well.

53:30Really lovely because my mum moved in for five days. And you knew what you were doing as well. Again, we'd had one before. So it was like, oh, okay, we know what I'm doing this time. True, but I'd never breastfed before. But as soon as he was out, he was on my breast and I was breastfeeding as soon as he was out, which I thought was very, again, lucky. Again, it's that thing, isn't it? Of seeing Rosie breastfeed. It's very different to seeing someone else do it, to doing it yourself and having your body work in that way. And the baby's got to do it as well. Yeah. The babies can do it. He sat there for two hours for a feed, didn't he?

53:57And I was like, wow, okay. You're hungry. You think you're hungry. so we've both had very different experiences yeah polar opposite experiences and I think that's why my mental health has been pretty good what was it like meeting Rocky for the first time oh it's so surreal because you know you're pregnant but you don't really well I didn't really believe that I was pregnant so I had imposter syndrome even today honestly I'm like I just think oh that's my son and I just find it quite unbelievable because for me it felt like such a long a long journey and a hard one and I really didn't think it was going to happen at one point, you know.

54:32And I remember speaking to the universe on this dog walk. I keep talking to you about it. And I was there for 30 minutes walking around the field saying, this is what, if you give me a baby, right, I won't sleep. I don't mind. You know, a healthy baby. I'll do it all. You know, I'll have the trenches. I don't care. Please, please, can I get pregnant? And now I have a baby who doesn't sleep. So, you asked the universe to live. Literally, yeah. You literally put it out there. Literally, I did. But no, it's so surreal. And they, you know, they whack him over the little tent that they put up, the little barrier.

55:00and he was crying and I thought, wow, you look like my brother. No, I did think it straight away, but he did look like my brother. He's changed now. Not that there's anything wrong with looking like my brother, but you don't know how genetic you're going to work. Yeah, but also when you're feeding, because I've definitely heard that, when you're feeding your baby and you go, you look like my brother. Yeah, exactly. But no, it was mad. It was mad. What's it been like seeing the other one pregnant? I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed being the other. Yeah? Yeah, the non-pregnant one. The non-pregnant one.

55:30I really enjoyed going on your journey. Obviously, it sucks when you did your rib and stuff. I can't do anything about it. And if you're feeling sick or you've got to kind of watch them go through that. Same with IVF. You know, you've got your two embryos on ice. Is there a world in which both of you take one each? Yeah, we could. We could, but I mean, and I'm not against egg swapping at all. I can absolutely understand why, you know, two women do it. But for me, because I haven't got a fertility issue that I know of in either of you, I just wouldn't ask you to do that for me. I've authored, when Rose was doing the IVF I said, you know, if you can't carry for some reason if you keep miscarrying, I can carry yours.

56:12But obviously you wanted to do it yourself and I'm glad you could experience it. Yeah, but I want you to have your own biological child as well because I know that would bring you a lot of joy equally. There's nothing wrong with saying that. I think a lot of people think, oh, I shouldn't really say that. But actually, you can. And, you know, it's lovely watching, you know, you having your biological child, me having my biological child. Together they are connected through a donor. You know, they've got the same donor. It is amazing. And it's beautiful. And they are one family. They are one family.

56:40And it is amazing because Rose's baby looks just like her. And it's like watching, it's like being able to know Rose when she was a baby because she looks just like you. And it's like, wow, I'm meeting baby you. Ziggy looks just like you. But also you have so much love for each other. Therefore you have that love pause. Absolutely. Absolutely, and it does. And yeah, it's lovely to see them love each other as well. Yeah, oh, never really. What was it like bringing Rocky back and Ziggy? Oh, it was amazing. We were so excited. Really? And he, oh God, they love each other now. And Rocky winds him up, actually, even though he's only nine months.

57:11Rocky's naughty. You can see he's going to be a cheeky little monkey. And then Ziggy will copy him in the bath and splash. And I'm like, boys, stop splashing. And Ziggy's like, no, I will. You know? It's lovely. It's really nice. And we didn't know how Ziggy was going to react. You don't always know. With any sibling, you never know. Now I know. You never know how the relationship's going to be. But there was no jealousy at all. Really? No. I think there might have been an element of displacement for half a second without Ziggy even realising that's what it was. He was a bit emotional. Maybe once he had a bit more cuddles and a bit more love.

57:36A bit more emotional for a few weeks. Fine. But now, absolutely fine. Do you think Ziggy understood that there was a baby in your tummy? Yes, he did. Yeah, he did. He used to call it baby Rocky in your tummy. I know. And my sister-in-law is pregnant at the moment. She's about to have a baby, actually, in two weeks. And Ziggy, he knows that, you know, Auntie Hannah's going to have a baby. it's going to come out you know and we're at the age where we're teaching him that he came out of mum Rocky came out of mama you know and we're at that stage so the conversations are going to get interesting it's another journey and also you don't know when they're going to happen I know I don't feel like with kids you can't sit them down and go no we're going to chat about this it's going to be coming home from somewhere one day and being like so I predict it's going to be soon yeah do you yeah I do am I nervous about it honestly are you I'm a bit nervous because you know So I feel like there's a lot of pressure on us to get this right, you know, as two same-sex parents to get this right.

58:29And there's going to be a lot of opinions being like, you shouldn't have said this. You shouldn't refer to this person as that. You know, is it equal? Do they feel at a loss? You know, I'm worried I'm going to make a mistake. I am. But the only way I can do it, we've always explained what a family was to Ziggy. A family is love. That is what it is. And I truly believe it. You know, so I don't think the technicalities are going to bother him too much. I just want to make sure my terminology is right and appropriate. We've got books to help us. We have got books to help. And also, I imagine it's not just going to be one conversation, right?

58:57No. You're going to talk about it. You two are such great talkers. You can tell, even recording this, you really communicate with each other well. And that's going to filter through the family. You are going to keep continuing that conversation. It's going to be a continuous conversation through life. But ultimately, they know that they are surrounded by love. Yeah. And, you know, that's a solid family. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's lovely. Yeah, I feel that way. I feel like that's what we're... I mean, that's what we always try and do, isn't it? Just love them really hard. I don't think you can love your kids too much.

59:30No, never. So, yeah, that's where we're at. If you could write a letter on motherhood, who would it be to and what would you say? I would write mine to myself. That's okay, that's allowed. I would write it to myself about three years ago and I'd say, do you know what? Hang in there. because it does happen for you. Don't lose faith. And just stay mentally strong and focused on just one step at a time. When you shared your miscarriage with everyone, obviously it was during COVID, at a time where we all felt really alone. Yeah. Sharing it, were you surprised by the amount of love and the huge response that it got?

1:00:09I was. And it really helped me to share it as well. Yeah. Because I thought, well, do you know what? I actually owe it to other people to share this experience because I'm sure there are plenty of people that have either experienced it and not said anything or could experience it and need that support. So I was actually really happy to talk about it. And I talk about it. I would, you know, continue to talk about it. And I think that's really important. But it did make me feel very supportive. It helped you process it. It did, yeah. I do feel like it definitely helped me process everything. I think there's also that other element of anyone who has had a miscarriage not in COVID can kind of go, oh my gosh, to be going through that at this time when you've got to go to the hospital on your own, everything is so, you know.

1:00:48It was an added complication for sure. But you know what? Got through it. Made me stronger. It did make me stronger, actually. It did. I mean, it's nothing I'd want or wish on anybody. But I do believe everything worked out the right way in the end. It's hard. It's a hard one to swallow. And, you know, I do grieve that child a lot sometimes. You can't replace them. You know, some people say, you know, well, you've got your baby now. It's like, I know, but it wasn't that baby, I don't think, you know. But I do feel like everything has worked out the way that it was always going to work out. And it's worked out well for us.

1:01:21My first pregnancy was a miscarriage. And date wise, I just couldn't have had Buzz had that pregnancy gone full term. So I've always thought of him as my silver lining. Yeah, absolutely. And I do feel like that's the way that it was set out. Yeah. But it doesn't stop you kind of every now and then going, gosh, that experience because you know what that experience was. Yeah, absolutely. And it is tough. But yeah, I it's it's it's weird, isn't it? Because I just like I said, I just didn't think it would be something I'd have to ever go through, which is naive and silly to think about now. But now I know.

1:01:58But now I know. And, you know, I'm I'm not I'm not grateful for it. I know how much I can cope with. And I feel like that's made me a better mum in a way because I've been through something and I feel like I've lost a child. And I've got through it. I'm not over it, but I'm dealing with it. And I'm at a place now where I can think about it fondly, honestly, and think, you know, we buried. I think I felt like it was a boy. I'll never know. But we call him Oscar because that was what I was going to call him. And, you know, we buried him. I feel like we processed it well and we did it right. We buried my placenta next to where we buried Oscar, which I felt was a really nice thing.

1:02:41Yeah, I do too. It was just all sort of together. My blood, your blood. Yeah. You've got flowers growing there now. We do actually, we planted a cherry. We moved house though. I don't think there was more that her and Owen us know actually. Just ghost child walking around. But no, we actually planted another cherry tree. Yeah, and then we planted another one. In our current house for him. But you buried him with like this... A little angel. Yeah, like a crystal. A little glass crystal angel. And we took that with us. We did, we took that with us. Yeah, yeah. So we've got that. It's in my office, in my desk.

1:03:17But yeah, so I feel like we've processed it well, you know. But yes, you're quite right. The support I got was amazing. And I'm really glad that I shared it. Good. Letter on motherhood. I would write it to my kids. Yeah. Yeah. I think I just try and tell them I don't know just that I've done I've done everything I can for them and I just want them to feel loved maybe they could read it when I'm gone yeah yeah and just how much you love them how much I love them what a blessing they are you say that now you wait till they're teenagers Rosie the letter might be different I'm scared about that are you?

1:03:52yeah I'm really scared actually what are you scared about? Rosie's biggest fear I'm going to say it is that Ziggy will turn around and not like a as an adult I think in the teenage years, I think me and my mum have had a rocky relationship. And also I say to people, if they've ever got boys and they've got teenagers, I say, do they still hug you? Because I just worry about that distance. There's the stereotype. And I don't know if it's true that the boys kind of get more distance, but girls maybe stay closer to their mums. And maybe that's a load of rubbish. Well, I've heard the other way round.

1:04:20Have you? Yeah. Say more. Makes me feel better. I've heard the other way round. I've got two of my boys are super cuddly. Really? One, I try not to kiss him on the lips now at the school gates because I feel like he literally, if I move my cheek, he's literally finding, he's hunting my lips. And I'm like, okay. See, I'm such a physically affectionate person. I need cuddles and I don't want to embarrass them at school. But I want them to love me forever. What are you fearing? What am I fearing? I think a bit like Rosie. I'm just scared that they'll say, you did it all wrong. Yeah, I'm scared of getting it wrong.

1:04:55This was wrong. I think there has to be a level of acceptance of we are going to fuck it up in some way. Yes. Right. Right? I don't think there's ever been a generation that has looked up and gone, well done, guys. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Ten stars. Yeah. That's true. And then there's also the new pressure like AI and technology. Yeah. All this stuff that we don't know. No. Exactly. Because we grew up without it. That's a big pressure. Everything in moderation, right? Exactly that. Exactly. There you go. We end the podcast with you completing three sentences. Okay. The first one. Rose, being a mum means being someone's entire world and being forced to slow down and appreciate the things that we so often take for granted as adults and actually being able to live a second life through the eyes of a child.

1:05:41It's quite humbling, really, isn't it? I love that. Thanks. No pressure, Rosie. That's much better. Yeah, that's much better. I mean, being a mum is everything. I mean, where would we be without mums? I've got a newfound appreciation for mums, definitely. As someone who, as we said earlier, You're like, I never cared about being a mum, having kids. It wasn't something I cared about. Now I'm like, it's the most amazing thing in the whole world. I think it's everything. Since having children, I am so tired. But I feel like I've emotionally evolved as a person and I can't think about myself first anymore.

1:06:17And that's okay, actually. And that's helped me a lot in terms of my OCD, my mental health. there is something more important than me. And that realisation is quite big. It's quite scary. But again, I love it. Yeah, I mean, mine's similar to yours. I think since having children, I have had a spiritual awakening. I've had several personality transplants. I've questioned everything. It's just turned my whole world upside down, but in an amazing good way. And it's like I'm discovering myself. It's pretty incredible that you sort of grew up in a chaotic household, thought, I'm not doing that. Yeah.

1:06:52And actually, that's exactly what I'm doing. Yeah. I know. We all think, like, I won't become my mum, but... Oh, no, I'm absolutely going to. When you hear yourself saying to your mum, Mum, why are you in there? Yeah, I know I'm going to turn into my mum because the amount of times I hoover a day. Like, that's my mum. All right, cheeky, calm down. Finally, I'm happy when? When my children are happy. There is... I have never felt joy like it. When my children are so happy, I just everything is fine I'm just like right house can be untidy don't care you know I could have problems in my own personal life but if my children are happy everything's fine I'm happy when I'm at a farm park I literally love going to the farm park my kids are happy I'm happy you got coffee you know you think you do these things for the kids but Rose held a little baby pig the other day do you know what I did it was a great I know Ziggy was off somewhere else I was like this pig's great guys he's going to be like a pig he wasn't even caring Rose was like Rosie get a picture of me this pig Yeah, I was.

1:07:51Oh, it was great. It was great. No, we're really enjoying it, aren't we? Thank you so much. I've honestly just loved having you on. Seriously, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having us. Honestly, we've had such a good time. Thank you. Thank you.