Ryan Libbey on supporting his partner through birth trauma

0:01Coming up on Happy Mum, Happy Baby This is already so far from the version that anyone would hope for. You would want that sort of beautiful moment of newborn baby straight on to mum. It was not that. It was baby was taken to intensive care. Louise was dying. She kept asking you if she was dying. She did, yeah. She said, am I dying? Yeah. She did say that a few times. I think I went straight into the role of single parent mode and primary caregiver to Louise as soon as we entered the house. and I think that was the start of a 10-month squeeze on Ryan that really got me because it didn't really ease up.

0:36If anything, it got worse. We were in a very, very bad place because of what had happened and I knew I had to make some changes. I got this feeling that I wasn't really giving her really what she needed so I started to push myself in this world of open communication and I started to get a real feel for what does Louise need from me.

1:03Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's guest is a personal trainer, a fitness entrepreneur, a content creator, a former Made in Chelsea star, person, and a podcast host of He Said, She Said. He's also the dad to little Leo. It's Ryan Libby. That was a great intro. Thank you so much. I like to bring the element of chaos in right at the top so that we all feel like we're level. Okay. Mission accomplished. We're off to a great start. No need to feel, you know, anything other than relaxed right now. Yeah, leveled. How are you? I'm good, thanks. How are you?

1:45I'm good. I'm good. I've just been hearing all about your escapades this year. I know. There's been a few. Where would you like to start with that? Oh, Sahara. I'm going to the Sahara this year. Are you? Yes. To do a race? A walk. A walk. A trek. I take the race out of everything physical that I do. Yeah, that's fair enough. But you were racing. Well, apparently. I was at the back of the pack for most of the race. But you were there. I was there. I managed to get through it. Yeah, it was a really wild experience. I was actually in the Sahara twice this year. Really? Yeah. For two different races?

2:14Two different races, same organisation, part of the Marathon des Sables. And it was a great opportunity, but one that really, much like you just did, levelled me, broke me to pieces, and it just gave me this opportunity to regain some perspective on my last three years or so. Yeah, what was that like? Obviously taking time out. In the Sahara? Yeah. Difficult but needed. Yeah. The first one I did sort of three marathons. It was my introduction to running marathons on sand and in the heat. And it went well and I was back home in about five days, I think it was. Yeah. And it was manageable. I thought, okay.

2:47The plan was always to sort of have the introduction to the Sahara racing world and then to go back out and do this big one which is called The Legend, which is 250 kilometres, self-sufficient, so you carry all of your sort of food, water, camping kit and you move across the Sahara and it's a massive race. There's a thousand people, there's 27 different languages spoken at this race because there's so many people. Typically the format is you complete the stage of the race, could be a marathon distance, could be less. you arrive at, they call it a biviak campsite pitch up, refuel, sleep a little bit if you can start the next day and go again it's brutal but I don't know, this might not make any sense but I didn't really go in with the race mentality myself I just went for the experience and I went to process and digest and come back peaceful and actually mission accomplished because it worked and I don't quite know how I went through a real perspective shift because I was tested like I've never been tested before physically and actually mentally and it just my mind just went to places that I've never been to before I started thinking of my great-granddad in World War II and my grand my other grandfather who was a marine who was out in the Oman in the sort of caves and then I started to just think about actually this isn't so bad because I can do this and I can manage the way I can I can manage all the elements and I was able to just get through stages of this race and just everything was kind of clicking into place in my mind perspective really helped with that um and then come the end of it the last sort of two marathons I don't think I stopped crying for two marathons straight really well I'd just gone to this place of I've broken myself and I remember calling home to speak to Louise and for a moment I thought I couldn't complete this I was so broken my feet were so terrible to look at I had to cut my running shoes in half oh god with a pen knife so the last two marathons I did in Crocs essentially and I was just crying because I could visualise Leo and he's got this I don't know where he picked this phrase up but if he goes to nursery or if we go away somewhere it's always two days so he's like I'll see you in two days, it's always two days and I just had this two days in my mind because I had two marathons to go and I was just sobbing under my sunglasses thinking about him and the interactions and going through memories in that highlight reel that we have in our minds and it was a beautiful experience.

5:10I just think you've held so much over the last three years, right? And you have been sort of the one to hold the family together in so many ways, to suddenly be somewhere where you are able to just let that out. Yeah. And not be the strong one. Which is what happened. Yeah. Yeah. You have two brothers. I do. Yes. It's a lot of military action happening in your military action. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Two brothers older than me. They've got real jobs. They wear suits every day. Someone has to, right? Someone has to. Just not us. Yeah. So my dad was military. He had a really good career, stayed in the army for 28 years or so.

5:47My mum's dad was a Marine. He was a PTI in the Marines, super fit guy, qualified for the Olympics, very, very fit. My dad's grandfather was army. So yeah, lots of military heritage. And for a while, I thought that perhaps I was going to follow the format or the flow because my two brothers did. But then somewhere along that journey I just I figured that the regimented lifestyle wasn't really for me. Was your childhood quite regimented? No actually. Really? No to be honest no I'm sort of packaging it up as perhaps it was but if you ever met my dad you you wouldn't necessarily think that he got to a general in the army because he's just very relaxed and he's not he's not that regimented himself.

6:28Right. Perhaps in a work environment he was but not at home. There was an element of discipline but it wasn't as you perhaps yeah would vision that though I have read that you or heard you say before that you are perhaps softer around the edges compared to the other men in your life yes that's my mum that's my mum yeah well because my brothers are seven years and six years ahead of me so a lot of my childhood I suppose was just me and mum because dad would be away on operational tours for six months Iraq Afghanistan and my mum is a very lovely very sensitive and emotional person and I've absorbed some of that and I knew I've always known that and I think for many years I've probably tried to conceal that right maybe not with like huge amounts of intent but maybe I just I felt like I shouldn't really bear my skeletons with how sensitive I am and for a long time Louise was convinced I was a robot I'm sure really she thought that I had no empathy and I couldn't just had no hearts and I was like you're so wrong how How do I fix this?

7:31I know, I'll go to a desert and cry for two days. Well, it took for something monumentally terrible in our world to happen for me to just drop my guard, essentially. Really? Don't think you did until... No, I don't think I did. So, first of all, before you'd even met Louise, had you thought about having kids yourself and having your own family? That's a good question. I'm going to be honest, no. Really? Didn't enter your head? No, I hadn't, no. I remember when Louise told me she was pregnant. I really and truly went numb at the knees and I buckled and hit the floor in the living room because I was just so just struck by the level of what just I've received in terms of information.

8:08And then we lost that baby. And it was it was a very confusing. I couldn't quite figure out. My main concern was that Louise took all the responsibility and blame. And I just I just tried to, I don't know, absorb, take that away, eliminate that as best I could. but it was, I think, it all happened relatively quickly, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. We weren't necessarily trying, to be perfectly honest with you. It happened. She told me the news. That was quickly followed up with, we've lost the baby. She went into, understandably so, a little bit of a funky place mentally. But then, again, the turnaround time between when she told me that we're pregnant again was quite short.

8:45Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I thought, oh, right, okay. Did you feel any connection to the loss? I just felt this overwhelming sense of sadness for Louise really because she took it all on herself and I suppose I was a little bit naive I don't want to use the word I don't want to say I was ignorant to it but I didn't quite understand the severity I could just see that Louise was very upset I knew that it wasn't her fault I knew that there was nothing really to worry about I sort of convinced myself and Louise that we were young, healthy I sort of viewed it as a message from above that perhaps the timing wasn't right for us and our time will come.

9:23And those are the sorts of conversations that I had with her. Which, as I'm articulating that, they probably do sound like I've spent time thinking about that. But I didn't really go deeper than that. I just wanted to keep it positive and reassure her that she was not to blame. She's healthy. We can make this work. This is where we're going. Did your knees buckle the second time? No, no, because I was like, right, OK, do I get excited to the same level or do I play it a bit safe here? Yeah. And I went with that option, which I don't know if Louise was happy with or not, but I just wanted to protect that situation a little bit.

10:00But then actually the pregnancy that followed was not straightforward. What struck me when I spoke to Louise, because if anyone wants to hear Louise decide in this conversation and that is also available in two parts. What struck me was the fact that she knew that she wanted to have an elective C-section. Because of the difference in your sizes, she just felt didn't feel like, and because she's a very small woman, she didn't feel like she would be able to birth the baby vaginally. And they kept pushing her to have a home birth. So it's not even, you know, just come into the hospital and see. It was a home birth that they kept pushing.

10:39Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, what was that like for you? Because ultimately she then had to take you in and still she couldn't advocate for herself and neither then you couldn't advocate for her in a way that was making anyone listen. Yeah. I don't know how to articulate. This is the bit that I look back on with the most regret, I think. Really? Yeah, because I was in the room and I was perhaps asking the questions, but I wasn't giving enough conviction. And I was aware of how this should go in terms of the birthing plan. And I knew that Louise, deep down, wanted to have the most organised plan, because she's an organiser, that's just the way she operates.

11:15And I just, I didn't get that result. And I do feel really uncomfortable about that. But it is hard when you are being led by a professional. Do you know what I mean? You can only advocate so much before, ultimately, if they're saying no, you're going to go, OK. yeah I almost wish I could have my moment again in those rooms with the various midwives and sort of medical professionals because and actually that's that's really seeped into my motivation for for why we've started the podcast now because I just think it's really important for for me having lived through that experience as a young dad now you know I'm hoping that by telling people my experiences and where I've let myself down that perhaps they can go into those situations and navigate better.

12:06Because Lord knows what could have happened if we'd got that across the line a bit clearer to the right people. How did you feel heading into the birth? I think most of the time, me and Louise probably reflect and mirror each other's energy. And I notice it more and more now that we do a podcast together. So if I'm a little bit frosty and grumpy, she'll give it straight back. And I'm like, this is going to be a difficult episode, Louise. We might need to change what's happening. But I can remember being in the hospital, and obviously she's enormously pregnant at this point, and just in huge amounts of discomfort.

12:40So I go into this mode where I'm trying to really actively be calm and positive and as helpful as possible where I can. Again, probably wasn't direct enough with the professionals who were in and out of the room at the time, but I can remember trying to instill a different energy into that space. but if I I have not actually been asked this question before but I think in truth I was I was nervous about what was coming because I knew that we didn't have a very clear level of understanding with the people who were supposed to be there helping us I just felt like we were being not ignored but we were being sort of ushered onto a different birthing plan which felt more suitable and appropriate and convenient for them versus us.

13:29She had a 36-hour labour, which felt like a lifetime. She had various epidural attempts to go into that spinal, which failed four or five times. What's also tricky is at this point, you don't know what normal is. No. And I know that there is no normal when it comes to birth. Everyone's experiences are very, very different. But you don't know when this birth is sort of running away from birth. And Louise used that expression actually when she was on, that feeling of the birth, that Bertha's kind of slipping out of her control. Yes. But you don't know in that moment what should be happening and you are looking to the people around you to kind of give you a bit of guidance.

14:05Yes. And if you feel like you are being steered, not for what is best for Louise and the baby, but actually for them, that's got to be really hard to come to terms with. I think it was the moment that I was trying to articulate with the epidural attempts which failed. They had different people coming in and out and they sort of packaged it up as, oh, we'll get the specialist or we'll get the consultant on duty, trying to sort of like give us reassurance that it will be resolved with the next person. And it just didn't. And it went on and on and on. And by this point, Louise is bent over with a, as I say, enormously pregnant tummy situation and just in a lot of pain and discomfort, bent over.

14:43And it was at that point where I started to really lose that sense of calm and positive energy. And I think I started to turn pretty, I was going to say nasty, but I don't really mean nasty. but that's when I started to get very uptight. A bit more direct, maybe with how you were speaking to people? And actually, this is so bizarre having this conversation because I haven't really spoken about this, but I was journalling from the moment we arrived in this room. I wanted to create a sort of playbook for Louise so that she could read back and I timestamped it and everything and I had names of the people in the room and what she was saying, how she was looking, how she was feeling and I've looked back at these pages and the tone of my writing changes drastically.

15:25Quite a lot of scribbles and square words started off with positivity and almost like I was trying to create a journal. Paint a lovely picture of what that... Right, so she could have that to look back on. Yeah. And it just, it really changed tone quick. And I think it was that moment of the epidural. And then it really went... I mean, how did it feel when things did take a turn and you knew that she was going in for... Well, at first, though, being told that she was going to go in for an emergency C-section, was there a sense of relief? The fact that they're finally listening and that they know that the baby can be out in the next half an hour or so.

16:04By this point, 36 hours plus of labour, all the chaos that was going on, there was a problem with the position of Leo's head. And it was causing an enormous amount of pressure and there was inflammation building not only on his head, but just that whole area of Louise's downstairs. and I caught just a snapshot of the whole situation. It looked terrible and I thought there is something very wrong here. And it wasn't a sort of like, okay, we are going to do this now as the next step. It was almost, we can wait? And I was like, what do you mean we can wait? We can't wait. I'm no expert, but what I've just caught a glimpse of behind that blue sheet is terrifying.

16:41And Louise is exhausted and just emotional and lying there thinking, is this going to finish? Is this going to end? And, you know, so to ask you a question, no, it didn't feel that much of a relief because it was packaged in a way that was there was uncertainty. There wasn't the conviction or confidence. I just wanted someone I wanted this person to take one look at it and be like, everyone, put your tools down. We're going to go to the next room. We're going to get the baby out now and it's all going to be OK. It wasn't that. Right. And then, of course, when we went into the room, it was supposed to be a sort of routine C-section, 45 minutes.

17:15It should be OK. Of course, it wasn't that it was closer to four hours. And Louise awake for... And Louise was awake and there was a lot of blood loss and when Leo arrived he was not in a good place. He had a respiratory issue linked to mycomium. I think when the baby came out, I was sort of sat in between Louise here holding my hand, white as a sheet, the baby here looking, to be honest, quite misshapen on the head, a strange colour. And just all of a sudden, and I actually did have a hand on both of the tables, like this and all of a sudden I sort of looked up and I could just see the the room had gone from relatively busy to very very busy in both corners and I thought oh my gosh something's not quite right here and then he had a mask put on him and a cradle sort of skull cap thing Louise was crying but almost not really with it at this point white as a sheet and I sort of looked around and I saw this blue sheet which was completely bloody and it was almost like a change of hands it was like this person was moved out the way rather quickly there was another senior person who came in and an anesthetist sort of rushed to louise's head here and i thought oh my gosh something is not good here i sort of stayed in that that state for what felt like a lifetime really did they tell you at any point what was happening um not with louise with with leo yes right they said we're going to give him a 10 minute observational window we're going to see if We can clear the airways and get him going.

18:48And then they actually couldn't do that, so he was moved off to Niku. At that point, I was like, well, this is already so far from the version that anyone would hope for. You would want that sort of beautiful moment of newborn baby, straight on to mum. We can have a little moment and be like, yes, we've got this baby in the world. He or she is OK. But it was not that. It was baby was taken to intensive care. Louise was dying, maybe, it felt like. She kept asking you if she was dying. She did, yeah. She said, am I dying? Yeah, she did say that a few times. And again, I was probably not truthful in that moment because I didn't really know how to respond to that question.

19:29I was looking at her probably with the same level of emotion and I don't really know how to describe it, but I just told her that she wasn't dying, even though I think in my heart I was like, this is potentially, I don't know. Yeah. It must be absolutely awful to have the person you love looking at you for that reassurance when you know that you can't 100 % give it to them when it feels so far beyond. Yeah. It was... Yeah, you can tell. It still got a hold of me a little bit. Yeah, it was a terrible, terrible time that was. And that feeling of being torn, you know, your newborn is going off to intensive care, but you've still got your loved one on the table in front of you.

20:18Yeah. The first time I... Louise was in the room for close to four hours, taken back to her room, at which point I thought I'd better go and check on Leo. So just walking the hallway from Louise's room to Neku by myself, seeing our baby boy in a glass box by myself with tubes and monitors and screens. Terrible. Terrible, yeah. The next part of this, which I still find completely bizarre, is that after a four-hour surgery where essentially someone had cut something they absolutely shouldn't, Louise is put on a maternity ward, whereas she should be on a high dependency unit with people actually properly taking care of her she described it as almost being left and and and not having people monitor her in the way that she should have what was that like for you and also you're at a point where your baby has arrived that people must be asking you for news like how do you share that news what what do you say it did definitely feel that way it felt like we were forgotten and And I think seeing firsthand the sort of severity of that operation in that room, one would think that you'd be placed somewhere with really focused round the clock care.

21:45But we were on, as you said, the maternity ward sort of put in this side room. Almost, I mean, the position of this room was sort of behind the main reception desk, which you might think on first look that, oh, it's easy access. we can nip in and out but it's almost like you're behind the chaos it's all going on over there you're forgotten yeah and then when you know we did get a visit from nurse or doctors it was wasn't sensitive it wasn't handled very well it was almost like right let's get you up let's get you breastfeeding let's really push this forwards uh which was terrible and let's get you out let's get you out yeah well but for you having your partner not being able to sit up walk do anything independently to be told you can like you can take her home now what what was that like back to your point earlier i didn't know what was normal yeah so i had no choice but to scoop things up bags baby louise and roll with it but i i was taken for a mug because they got what they wanted they got that room vacant and cleaned up and the next person was in and we were on our way home and I knew in my heart that this wasn't the end of the story yeah um I was really I was relaying as much information as I could via text to my family and I remember this well I don't know if Louise told you this but this was probably the the moment where I um uh emotionally crumbled the most I think I'm very close to my brothers but one of them in particular I sent a message to just an update with, I've seen Leo.

23:24He's okay. He's in Nico. I've seen, obviously, I'm with Louise. I'm staying here for foreseeable. And I can't remember the exact question he asked me, but I signed it off with, I love you. And me and my brothers have a good relationship, but probably not one where we say I love you all the time. And my brother turned up within about 30 minutes with bags of food and clothes. and it just gives me chills now thinking about it because it was just one of those moments where it was a real demonstration of love from someone that I cared deeply about and it came just at the right time because I was really losing myself in this story.

24:04And, yeah, it's got me again thinking about it because it really meant the world that he'd turned up. It sounds a little bit basic the way I'm describing it now, but in the moment it was a lifeline. I don't think it sounds basic at all. It was a lifeline for me. And I just broke down on him. Sobbed on my brother in the hallways of the hospital. There was a point where you thought you were going to be leaving hospital without either of them? Yeah. Probably in that moment, actually. Yeah, probably in that moment. That was a tough one. it's like you say this isn't even the end of the story this is only really the yeah yeah this is this is just the start yeah yeah

24:58you get home i mean what's that like even being home because your idea and your expectation of what that's going to be again that moment of coming home together as a family for the first time you have an idea of what that's going to look like right what did it really look like i did have the vision it was like you see it in the movies all the time where you've got the sort of the perfect moment you you leave as two you come back as three you're you're nesting in your beautiful home and it's all great and cute but you know louise as you as you rightly said she could barely walk she couldn't she couldn't really climb the stairs she hadn't really had that moment with Leo to sort of establish the bond.

25:37It was all a little bit, well, it was very foreign because it was new to us all, but it lacked that connection, that love, and I think I went straight into the role or the duo role, if you like, of single parent mode and primary caregiver to Louise as soon as we entered the house. And I think that was the start of a 10-month squeeze on Ryan that really got me because it didn't really ease up. If anything, it got worse because there was trips back to hospital. Well, at this point where you're at, where you've just come back, at this point, did you discuss what had happened at all with the surgery?

26:18No. No, no, no. We didn't discuss it for a long, long time. Was it just too painful for either of you to go there? Too painful. I didn't have the answers that Louise... I knew she was asking. I knew she had a lot of questions and I just couldn't answer them. I couldn't... You've seen something traumatic that no one should ever see. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And again, I'm now sort of sat here in front of you, quite a different man as a result of all these experiences, I'll be honest. I can talk about it very honestly. Yeah. And I don't mind showing you the emotions, but there was a time where, you know, stuck to the point in the story where we're at now, I almost wanted to cover it up.

26:59Really? Not pretending it didn't happen, but I just thought I can't let myself show Louise that I'm broken by this. I need to show up for her and Leo. And, of course, what I've learned in the process is that that's not the way to show up. Louise, and I'm sure it's the same for many relationships, the more you communicate how you really feel, that's the place you want to get to because I think that's when you can really appreciate and see what's happening and you can value the relationship more. Do you know what I mean? But we can only react in the way that we think is right in that moment, can't we?

27:37On reflection, we can always go, ah. Yeah. But we also don't know what that knock-on effect would be. Yeah. I guess I immediately flipped the switch in my mind and I went into, I'm going to handle this. I'm going to carry this. I will look after this baby and I will make sure Louise is okay. and nothing else really mattered actually. Least of all me in that picture. So you think you're moving forward, you think you're getting somewhere, she's home. Yeah. And then 10 o 'clock one night, she's got Leo with her, you're in a different room as she calls you in. By this point I'd seen Louise in a hospital environment and I'd seen the level of blood loss and the chaos and what was happening there.

28:25but to have it at home in the way that it happened was... She describes it in her book as it's like someone had switched a hose on and that there was blood literally gushing out. Yeah. I was in our bedroom, she was in the spare bedroom and we've done that because, well, one, there's extra stairs to climb to get to our bedroom and she was not mobile. Two, I just wanted her to go into a space where she could just rest and not worry about the baby or how untidy the bedroom was. Just go somewhere that's ready for you. So she was in there and just the shriek or the shout or the scream, whatever best describes this, just pierced through my body and I must have flown from one bedroom down the staircase to the other.

29:19and I would describe it as like a gunshot victim on the floor. I've never seen blood like it, not even compared to the hospital. I've never seen it. I've never seen it. And because the bed linen is all white, it was all red at this point, literally. And I can't actually remember where Leo is in this moment in time. I feel like he's in my arms. I think he was with me versus in the bed with Louise. So he's in my arms, tiny little thing screaming. and Louise is in this bed which is filled with blood and I can remember her hands were in a pool like this. I think that's how she was gauging how bad the situation was because she could feel it and she could hear the tapping.

30:03So I grabbed some bath towels and I tried to plug the bleed and I'm holding Leo and she is on her way out. She's saying no goodbyes at this point. I think the next thing I did was grabbed the phone called the ambulance they gave me some generic response because she was I don't know she fell into the bracket of she's conscious she's breathing she's okay I was like she's very much not okay if you don't get here in 10 minutes she's probably going to die because the level of blood that I'm looking at is insane and these bath towels that I was trying to plug The bleed with quickly absorbed it and turned red.

30:47So I'm changing the towels. Louise is sort of slipping into this state of surrender, to be honest with that. And then the ambulance did show up very quickly, actually. She'd said in that moment that she would not be there in 10 minutes. I said that. Did you? I said that. Yeah, I really felt that that was it. Yeah, I really thought that was it. At this point, was it five and a half litres of blood that she'd lost during this? Yeah, well, we found that out when we got to hospital, when she was back on the theatre table, yeah, five and a half, yeah. So essentially a full body supply of blood lost that evening.

31:39I don't know if that's hard to really to have a vision neither would you want to imagine it but when you see it it's yeah so she had to go through another surgery and another transfusion and back into Did you contact people within that time? Oh my gosh yeah I think my second call that evening was to my dad he was in Surrey so my parents had come up from Devon positioned themselves at my brother's place in Surrey with the view of we'll come down when it's convenient to see the baby I called him in a complete frenzy I said dad you need to fucking get out of bed and get here quick because I am in a real bad state and before I'd even finished it he'd hung up when he was on his way he got a pretty severe speeding ticket a few penalties on that but he was there quick and so was Louise's mum I remember being in the sort of, it was actually an empty patient's room on the same level as the theatre room.

32:43And I don't know how it happened because it was, well, it was 2021, wasn't it? So it was the sort of still the pandemic sort of period of time. Somehow Sam managed to find his way into the room and we were sort of camping in this room waiting. Yeah, because they wouldn't let you in this time, would they? No, no. You two had to stand aside. So Sam joined me for, I don't know, I actually still don't know how he appeared, but I remember speaking to him on the phone and he's like, just leave it with me, I'll find you. He found me. And yeah, I mean, he must have, I don't know, seen me in a state of complete despair.

33:21Yeah. Yeah. How long until Louise came round? Well, when Louise came round? I mean that must have been such a surreal thing to be back in hospital, to not be with your baby and again life just not looking how you another whirlwind of a situation It's hard to it's kind of it's quite hard to get the order of play with this story and as I'm talking to you I'm remembering different things that have happened but I think I think somewhere in my journey to recovery, it's all meshed into one catastrophic event, when in reality this is all played out across three and a bit years. Yeah, yeah. And I've honestly lost track of all the times we've been in and out of different hospitals.

34:14I've lost track of the surgeries because there's now been secondary issues. All I can really say is that it was... I nearly lost them both in one evening. I didn't. I went back home and I nearly lost her again. And that actually happened for a third time a few months down the road where she had a procedure which was designed to reinstate the sort of shape and integrity of the womb and something inserted which got rejected. And it was another – this was the third hemorrhage, but this was the second one at home. And, again, I can't answer where this was in the timeline, but I was training someone in Knightsbridge.

34:55I got the call, I arrived at home to see her being loaded into an ambulance outside the house. I went down to the downstairs bathroom where it happened and it was yet again just a murder scene. Whilst Louise is actually in and out of hospital, you are, you know, again as we were saying that, you're the primary carer, you're the primary carer for Leo but also the primary carer for Louise. You're caring for two people who have very different needs by that point. And again, it's that thing of Louise had a lot of stuff going on mentally at that point, which she spoke about when she came on. But I guess within that situation, there's not really time for you to process or to break.

35:41And you've got Louise not being the mum that you thought she would be, not being capable because of everything that she'd gone through. and you've got a newborn who is relying on you for everything, which is an overwhelming thing in itself anyway. Yeah. Did you feel the weight of that in the moment? No. Not in the moment. It took, I think it was 10 or 11 months into it where I took a look at myself in the mirror and I had family cast some opinions, which I think it was a needed sort of you're not in a good place. Right. I think by this point I'd sort of sunken into a state of depression without knowing it, to be truthful.

36:25I was just in a one-track mind. My days were, they felt incredibly long, but they were, it was really just about survival. Yeah. Not entirely about my survival, but like, I need to make sure that everyone's okay in this day. Because there was, and as you rightly said, when Louise was at home, there was an awful lot of activity still going on with her health. So we would have different nurses, different doctors. We even had a crisis management team come very regularly, which, to be really honest with you, was a suicide watch because she was so mentally checked out, which is absolutely terrifying.

37:05And I don't think I've quite processed that one. I think that was something that I wanted to reframe straight away. it's really really sad to know that Louise was hurting like that and she couldn't and I suppose I didn't really understand what was happening I couldn't quite, I could understand that she was in shock and that she was completely reduced to a version of herself that was she was just surrendering to the whole thing she'd lost the fight and I could understand it because she would have been exhausted and her body would have been looking and feeling so different And to lie on the sofa with a vacant look on your face for days and weeks, I kind of, I could understand that.

37:48But I couldn't understand that we were in the place of potential. She wants to end her life and she doesn't really recognize or care for the baby in the room. At the time, I couldn't quite understand that. Because if she spent five minutes with Leo, that was seen as a successful day. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, completely. I actually listened to an episode of He Said, She Said, where you picked up the fact that Louise was asked in an interview whether she cared at that point when she was in the real height of things if you'd left. It's almost like she would totally have understood it. Like that feeling of I've got nothing to offer.

38:32And that really played on your mind because that's why you brought it onto the pod. Yeah, even hearing that now still makes me pretty upset. But again, it's that thing, isn't it? It's nothing to do with you and all of what you're doing. It's that general feeling of worthlessness. That's nothing to do with the person that's given you love. It's all to do with that feeling of despair and being totally and utterly broken. Yeah. It's deeply sad that she went through that. And I think during all of this journey, even though I probably at times thought that I got a lid on things and was being semi-helpful, I think the overriding feeling that I had was I did actually feel very helpless.

39:20I feel like I couldn't fix the situation. and when we arrived as a three for the first time I think I told myself I can fix this I can do this I went on for 10 months squeezed myself into a place of depression and I couldn't fix it I couldn't fix it because this was this was a really complex situation and I should have asked for help much sooner than I did. Were people offering it? Was it you that was kind of saying no we're fine?

39:52Some of our family were definitely offering it. Some of them perhaps weren't. Some people in our lives showed up as I needed them to. Others didn't. But I would actually take accountability, and I will say that I should have expressed the need for help more. And if I had my time again, I would have done it far, far sooner because I could have avoided breaking myself. Yeah. At that point where you decided that you actually needed to address how you were feeling and let that out, was there almost a relief in letting that break come, in a sense of kind of having to always be that one in control and, you know, to deal with the situation?

40:41Or was it just utter despair? I think I remember having a conversation with my dad on a park bench in Mayfair, and it wasn't a good conversation. and I felt like he was really worried for my own health, but really worried for our family. And I could sense that I needed to do something pretty drastic to save it, really. So I thought the only option I've got here is to remove myself and try and better myself and come back with a clearer, calmer presence, because I was just full of resentment to the whole thing. How did you do that? Randomly jumped into a taxi and picked a destination at the airport Is this your Budapest trip?

41:32Yeah, I ended up in Budapest for three nights It was a terrible move because I just couldn't find myself If I went back now I'd probably think differently but it was just not the right place for me So I then transferred to Barcelona and I just put my feet in the sand and did a bit of journaling and it was a much more cathartic experience being there for three days. And I suppose that was also the same time when I reached out to do therapy for the first time because I just thought... Had you not been offered it? No. No, no. No, no, I didn't really get any support from anyone in that sense. That's not to say the family and friends weren't offering it to me, but I didn't have any sort of medical people take a look at me and think, oh, this is potentially, we might need to step in here.

42:28None of that, which is, whatever. I still to this day think that I'm not really the one that was, I didn't need it the most at that time. Most has nothing to do with it. Yeah. You still needed it. True. Yeah. And it's the whole face mask thing, isn't it, on a plane? You have to fit your own before you can fit everyone else's. True, yeah. And you were trying to keep everyone else up at that point. What was it like not being with Louise and Leo for those? Was it discombobulating, sort of removing yourself, or were you able to just kind of take a breath?

43:07It didn't feel right, and I couldn't shake off the feeling that I'd perhaps been a bit of a coward by doing that. But then I just sort of reminded myself and reassured myself that I'd put in one hell of a shift for 10 months and it's got to a place now where I was becoming unhelpful versus helpful and this is a necessary move. I have to create some space for everyone. There must have been an element of, you know, when something like that's gone on for 10 months not being able to see the wood for the trees not being able to see a way out kind of is this our new normal and and for even things like resentment to start building up between you I had layers of resentment and that's me being really truthful I had resentment to the people and the faces in the hospital I still remember I had resentment to Louise and I don't know if I'm going to get annihilated for saying that but I did because I just I wanted the the version of our family beginnings to be so different and I don't know I don't know yeah maybe that's a clumsy thing to say but I had resentment to the whole thing and it was difficult actually because I was trying to replace the role of mum as well so So I was in this battle of biology as well.

44:31I could feel that Leo was unsettled and probably biologically yearning for his mum. And that battle became difficult for me. Obviously, he wouldn't know that I'm trying everything to make this work for him, but there were times where I couldn't get the result and it was very frustrating to me. Yeah. And I just got really upset with myself and I didn't have Louise to turn to because she was so unwell and I think experiences like that went on and on and I just became resentful to the version of this that I had in front of me. Your family and Louise's family, I mean there must always be a point with a situation like this where people can be hands on deck for a period of time but ultimately then everyone sort of goes back to their lives and then it's all on you.

45:23Exactly, yeah. It's those 3am dream feeds which were just, yeah, lonely is the word. And I couldn't really see how this was going to play out. I couldn't really see a brighter version of that. And the result was I became depressed, I think. Removed it, I think. I was depressed. Yeah. When you came back from Barcelona and decided you were going to start therapy, even that decision, did that have an impact, allowing yourself to go there? Yeah. Yeah. And it had an impact for Louise as well. Really? Yeah. I think she was relieved. I think she was excited that I was going to take that step, the step to accepting where I was at, removing the ego potentially, setting aside any sense of pride and just accepting that I am not in a good place and I need help.

46:26And Louise is a really great communicator, but she's always been that way. she can talk to anyone in any situation really easily and be really open and honest about things. And I wasn't that way. I was too private, too reserved, too... We said before that she saw you as a robot. Yeah. And I think when I told her that I'd started some talking therapy, she was really relieved. Did it have an impact on the two of you? Yeah. Yeah. Positive impact. Yeah, yeah. Positive impacts, yeah. I didn't do it for as long as she perhaps wanted me to. I think I did a total of eight sessions. And it was good. And it was good to get a third person looking in on the situation and validating, verifying, reassuring, all those sorts of things.

47:20When did you two start talking about everything that happened? Honestly, I think Leo was probably two and a half. I don't think we spoke about it for two and a half years, really. Not to the level that we needed to, not to the level that we do now. And if I'm really honest, I probably still don't go into the regularity of these conversations that Louise needs. I think she still needs even three and a half years down the road. I still think she wants to work through the kinks, understand exactly what went wrong. What happened to my body? Is this okay? Am I okay? But there are still, I get this impression that she still needs to have those conversations, which I'm trying my best to get in with.

48:09Yeah. And the podcast is not forced, but supported those. I mean, it's incredible to listen to you two sit down and just openly talk and to feel that when someone brings something to the tables, kind of feel that, not discomfort, but to know that that discomfort is allowed. that we don't always have to be comfortable in every conversation that we have that it's okay to kind of catch something and go and then respond in a really beautiful I don't know you're saying about sometimes you're grouchy and that feeds into the pod but you know I think that's it's amazing to see a couple do that in the way that you that you have thank you we don't we don't actually plan the sessions and I don't this maybe maybe you won't necessarily believe but we like I did today yeah I just arrive and sit down and go and I do that every week I do you know what I believe you yeah because sometimes when when the he said she said comes up you know you can feel the other person go all right yeah but that's I guess that's my character I'm a little bit fast and loose in that sense but I think it's also played into just how organically or how how the conversations have just developed quite nicely and we've gone through the sort of milestones of the last three and a bit years.

49:27So it's been, I suppose, it's a little bit like doing public therapy in a way. Yeah, it totally is. Yeah. We're 33 episodes in, which I know compared to you is tiny baby numbers, but I still think even now she's surprised that I'm doing it. Really? She's like, obviously when we're off camera, she's like, what a turnaround in your character, you know? Yeah, and how's this? How's everything that's happened to you? You said before how you're not the man that you were before this experience. and you know we live in a world where we talk a lot about toxic masculinity and you know what it is to be a man and be strong and you know so maybe have that robot emotions and not go there how have the last three and a half years impacted you in that way and and maybe shown that it's okay like all this stuff that's bubbling away it's okay to to let it out i suppose i've i've looked at my relationship with Louise and I suppose we got to a place where we were in a very, very bad place because of what had happened and I knew I had to make some changes.

50:36I knew that there was accountability and responsibility on both parts but I just knew that I had to make some changes. I got this feeling that I wasn't really giving her what she needed. So I started to push myself in this world of open communication and then I started to look at love languages and I started to get a real feel for what does Louise need from me because I think for so many years in our relationship I was going with what I thought she needed and trying to get to the place of resolution too quick for what she needed but actually she just she wanted me to give her the words of affirmation is big in her world but she wanted to have that quality time where we could talk things through and I think what I'm trying to explain is by using myself and my own relationship with Louise as the sort of the test or the guinea pig here I could see the immediate change in my relationship the more I openly spoke to Louise the more I started to reveal what I perhaps once viewed as weaknesses I started to expose my vulnerabilities and I could see body language change with Louise I could see the way she was looking at me and it was all really working in my favor yeah it was like it was like we were coming back together very quickly and then I started to apply that into different areas so my relationships with friends became a lot more deeper because of the conversations that I was facilitating for them but also I was I was pouring myself and they were like oh this is is this you like is this Ryan because I think for so many years before that I probably just I was superficial top level I wasn't really getting into the into the real nitty-gritty stuff right and now I'm straight into the nitty-gritty and people are like, wow, we had you wrong.

52:42It's fair to say that fatherhood hasn't been what you thought it would be? No, no, very far from that. You and Leo have spent a lot of time, obviously, the two of you. A lot of time together, yeah. Well, how has that been? Because obviously I think maybe your idea of what it would be like to be a dad before might be different from the realities now and the bond and what you can get out of that bond, how that makes you feel? Totally. I think I've gone through chapters in this journey of how I feel about my relationship with Leo. I think it started off with, I'm going to try and pretend that I can be mum and dad here.

53:24And then as mum started to come back into the fold, I was kicked out of the frame a little bit, but I was like, I'm actually okay with this. Was there a bit of relief in that, you know, knowing that their bond was... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can remember the feelings and the moments in the kitchen where I would physically step back from it and allow it to happen. So there was weeks and months where I was not out of the frame, but I was old news for Leo. It was all about mummy, but I was like, do you know what? This is really necessary. This is great. And I think Louise was really fueled to make up for lost time and I just did not want to get in the way of that.

53:59And then, you know, daddy starts to slot back into the frame a little bit and we spend more time together. And I suppose this answer is going to be quite convoluted in many ways, but I've gone through stages of how I feel about it. And I think where I'm at now is I'm very lucky to have the relationship I have with Leo. I'm very lucky to spend so much time with my boy. and having seen all of those stages of development in his early years is a real, it's something, it's money in the bank. Not all of it's been pretty, but it's given me the perspective, it's given me the exposure to hard times and it's made me a better person and I'm sure it's made me a better dad.

54:47Speaking from someone who didn't really think that I was going to be able to have a family because I was just not in that mindset. and I suppose we as a family have turned something really terrible into something quite beautiful, which is something to be proud of, I think. I do have a special bond with Leo, there's no question about that, which is awesome, and yeah, that makes me happy. So fatherhood has surprised you? Fatherhood has surprised me, yeah. What would you say to someone whose partner is really going through it post-birth and they might be feeling quite distant from them and maybe the mother's feeling quite disassociated.

55:34What would your advice be to that other half? Because it's such a difficult position to be in. Like we were saying, you don't get the same support as maybe. it's so hard because the people being that are doing the supporting do need the support yeah you know yeah yeah so many ways you know and i wonder how many people would have come in the house and gone house louise and not really thought about you what advice would you give to someone in position that you were in so my first bit of advice would be to ask for help sooner um you know don't don't think that you're going to let anyone's self down least of all yourself for asking for help because regardless of the situation you're in, raising a baby is a really difficult task.

56:16And actually, it's okay to ask for help and have the inputs from different family members. And I think we should just be okay with that. You don't have to feel this pressure to do it yourself. So my first bit of advice would be ask for help. But then also, back to my point of my own learned experiences with my relationship with Louise, really try and understand what your partner needs from you. don't throw what you think they need at them. It's really hard in that moment though, isn't it, to kind of work that out? Yeah. Oh yeah, you've really got to listen to what they're saying, you've really got to open your mind and surrender to, okay, this doesn't feel right in my mind, but I'm going to park that, I'm going to move that over there, I'm going to just really try and give her what she needs.

57:01Wherever you are as a parent in that journey, if you're week one or week 28 or three or four years down the road. I think taking the opportunity to step away from it and refill your cup and cleanse yourself mentally and physically so you can come back with a different energy that's going to be really positive. And, you know, your little ones and your loved ones will respond better to it. They will be more receptive and just the whole energy in the house is different and better. the opportunity for me to go to the Sahara and do that and come back with a different it's impacted my entire life Did you know or think that it would have a bigger impact on you as it did?

57:43I didn't know I viewed the opportunity as an opportunity to get to that place but no, it's been so transformational for me and it's not about the distance run or it's a combination of just, it was a game of survival. Yeah. And I just allowed myself to go to these dark, really emotional places and then pick myself back up. Also, because in that situation, all there is is you. Yeah. Right? You're in that place of survival, but not like in the place of survival of three and a half years ago or, you know, or that first 10 months where you're in survival mode, but in survival mode for those other people.

58:24Yeah. You are purely in survival mode for you to get through that race, which is very different to kind of go that to just allow yourself to be and to care for yourself for that little bit and to push yourself and not having those other things, you know, at play. Yeah. I think if Louise was sat here now, she would say that I've come back in a really peaceful state. And I think I've just let go of that resentment and I've accepted what's happened. and it's okay that it's happened how it's happened because as I said, we've tried our best to turn it all into a positive and we're blessed with an amazing boy.

58:59Louise is now healthy and happy. In fact, just yesterday I was in the gym with Louise and I was sat on the bench watching her just in amazement because rewind six months ago, she was in hospital having a stoma bag of surgery and here she is again fighting on and with a smile like that, with our little headphones on, I thought, bloody hell, this is a moment. And I was snapshotting it in my mind. I was like, this is incredible. And again, that experience has encouraged me and taught me how to talk to people, especially Louise and my son. And it all seems to sort of be clicking into place a little bit.

59:42Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah, I think so. I listened to an episode of the podcast that must have been before you went to the Sahara, where it felt like you were feeling a little bit lost. Yeah. And comparing yourself also to other dads. Other dads who might be in suits, you know, live a certain lifestyle. Whereas you don't work in a suit. We don't. We're lucky. We're comfortable. And that feeling of not being the dad that you thought you should be. Do you see now that that's utter bollocks? Yes. Yes, I do. No, I do. Good. Yeah. No, that episode, I was actually in the Sahara when that episode came out.

1:00:21Oh, really? Yeah. And I remember getting moments of Wi-Fi on my phone and I'd check my social media and I'd read some of the messages coming through. And it was resoundingly quite positive. And people were supporting me in that moment. But, you know, I was reading it at a time when I'm out in the Sahara, like rectifying this stuff real time. But no, I now do see that I was looking at that in the wrong way. I mean, Ryan, if you look at what it is to be a dad, what it is to be a man, that's you. And I know that amazing people like Pete Wicks are really breaking that down now and really looking into that and why we think men have to be a certain way.

1:00:59And it's so detrimental to the mental health of men to feel like they have to be and present in a certain way. I feel like the way you are, the way you are so open, the way that you've shown up repeatedly, I think it's just admirable. And I think the way that you showed up in that conversation was brilliant. Because I also feel like Louise might have sprung that on you. Which one? On that conversation that he said she did. Oh, no, it's all sprung on me. Everything has sprung on me. Thank you. If you could write a letter on fatherhood, who would it be to and what would you say? Oh, my gosh. I would write it to my dad.

1:01:36And I would let him know that I think he's done a brilliant... This is not to exclude my mum, by the way. No, no, no, that's fine, that's fine. Just a letter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mum, we love you. What's her name? Linda. Linda, we love you. Yeah, we do love you. I would let my dad know that he... Oh, you've got me here. Oh, God. I feel myself fidgeting. I would let my dad know that he's done a really incredible job at raising three good blokes because we're all, in our own way... I'll talk about my brothers and my dad. They are all brilliant men. in different ways. But my dad, he is a sensitive man.

1:02:20He's a very fair man. And he's sacrificed a lot and he's dedicated his whole life and himself to the development of us as men. And I know that he looks at us, his boys, with a lot of pride. And I think I owe a lot of thanks to my parents, both of them, but we'll make this about fatherhood for now. I owe a lot of thanks to my dad because he's shown me the way in my younger years, you know? Yeah. But I would also write a letter to my mum. Let's make it fair. Come on, Linda. I would write a letter to my mum and I would thank her for early on showing me that being emotional or at least open with your emotions is okay and you don't have to be the alpha, egotistical man that perhaps are out there in the plenty.

1:03:21You can be a softer and you can offer something different. They have raised a remarkable young man. Well done, Linda and... Rick. Linda and Rick, thank you. We end the podcast with you completing three sentences. Being a dad means... Being a dad means you get to find your best friend. being a dad means you get an opportunity to really tweak and edit yourself because you've got someone watching the whole time which is a great opportunity if you're aware of that and being a dad means you have a real opportunity to inspire i love that since having a child i Since having a child, I have become a better human being.

1:04:07I have felt love in a completely different level, severity, intensity I've ever known possible. Love this. And also felt a feeling of pride looking at that little handsome chappy who's got bags of character and charisma and thinking, holy shit, it's 50 % me. and I'm sort of like yes so that's pretty cool final sentence I'm happy when I'm happy when I am out in nature doing a very basic catching a tennis ball with Louise or kicking a football with Leo in fact I'm taking Leo camping with a few friends and my brother mentioned in this podcast to the New Forest on Monday and we're going to sleep in the roof tent and we're going to be surrounded by wild ponies and cows and it's going to be that's when I'm happy because it's just we're just being cool we're just out there in the woods and there's no noise or distraction there's limited technology there's not like ample choice it's like well yeah we're going to do this and we're going to have this to eat and it's wonderful so that's when I'm happy I'm excited for you for this trip it sounds amazing thank you enjoy thank you Ryan thank you so much I mean I've already bigged you up so much and I mean every single word.

1:05:25Thank you so much for coming on and just being so open and honest. Thank you for having me. It's been wonderful. Thank you.