Sam & Alice Vanderpump on Navigating Their Relationship Through Postnatal Depression

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2:46Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum. Today's guests, there's not one but two, it's Sam and Alice Vanderpump. They are from Maiden Chelsea. Having had this conversation with these two, I have to say, I don't think we've ever had a couple in the studio that feel quite so connected and in tune and giving to each other. There's just this beautiful energy between them that is so encouraging and just the support they give each other means that they open up in a way that is just so endearing and lovely and supported. Sam encourages Alice to talk about where she's at right now with her mental health.

3:30Really early in the conversation, actually, she talks about her experience of postnatal depression that she is currently living through, which I feel is really vulnerable and brave and it's going to help a lot of people. I think the more we talk about it, the more the stigma is diminished, it goes away, it's no longer a taboo subject, let's talk about how we're feeling and it's only in doing so can we help more women who are feeling that way and ultimately save lives. They're delightful. So just enjoy this chat with Sam and Alice. Oh my god, I came into the shower once and Alice was not just singing, she was dancing.

4:13I wasn't dancing, I was just like... It was a small shower as well, we got two showers and one big shower. She was in the smaller shower, but thrusting of hips is what I would call. I was not thrusting my hips. It's the same chorus line over and over again. Sorry for being in a good mood. Justin Bieber, Beauty and the Beast. And I only know two lines, so I was just repeating the same two lines. And I can hear it from the lounge. So I sort of like, if she wasn't naked, I would have filmed it. And I would have put it on social media. But that's, you know, not just singing, but dancing in the shower is not talked about enough.

4:49No, no, it wasn't dancing, it was thrusting. It was not thrusting. It was not thrusting. I swear to God, thrusting of the hits. He opera sings from the kitchen. He always break out into opera song. Yeah, but I'm good. No, you're not. Do we have a little competition? No, no, no. Sting off. Oh, my God. How are you both feeling? Are you rested? No. No? How is the sleep, Alice? It's okay. It's definitely better than it was. Duke's only waking like once a night now. But even then, I think I have so much anxiety in the night, I wake up probably at least seven times just to check he's alive. Yeah. Is he sleeping next to you?

5:27He sleeps, yeah, in his own crib, but at the end of our bed. Yeah. So are you literally waking up and just checking his... I will literally wake up, like, out of a nightmare, and I'm like, I sit up, and I'm, like, panicking, and I have to, like, check his pulse, check his breathing. Yeah. You don't get off to sleep, do you? No, I don't fall asleep till, like... Once you are asleep, there's no waking you up, though. Yeah, yeah, but I could sleep through... Like, honestly, someone could come into the house, brutally murder Alice and Duke, and I would wake up, like, five hours afterwards. Honestly, once I'm asleep, there is no waking me.

6:01it's scary really honestly I think we need to get a doctor around it's like I've been drugged by an anaesthetist because me and Tom don't go to bed at the same time do you two go to bed at the same time but you just stay there awake or are you just like no I'm going up at 2 no I try to go to bed at the same time as you because I want to get into an early routine so I can get up early in the morning get on with my day but I just end up sitting there lying in bed and then I get so bored then I end up on my phone and then I end up doing business plans, coming up with four new businesses I'm going to start.

6:34We start by watching a film. I'll be asleep within like 10 minutes, and then he's like three films later still in bed. Watched the full trilogy. Taken was the other day.

6:45Wasn't it, obviously? Yeah, yeah. What are we watching? House of Dragon. And then he's watched like basically a whole series without me, and I'm like, so what's the rundown? And he's like, well, I'm not going to fill you in on this many. You should be watching it. I'm like, I'm asleep. It's your fault for watching it without me. Yeah. So if you're not going to bed till that late, how has having a baby like played around with that? So we thought at the beginning that this was going to work perfectly to our advantage. I was going to be up at the night. Alice was going to be up in the morning and we were like, we've got this on lock.

7:16We're going to be absolutely fine. And then baby Duke came along and we both just didn't sleep. So it wasn't like, oh, all of a sudden we can take it in turns. We just both didn't end up sleeping i don't know how we became so tired but in that first like i think three weeks we were it was like it was like torture everyone's so sleep when the baby sleeps but it just doesn't work like that like i would get into bed at seven hoping that i would be asleep and i would be awake all night for weeks on end i think i always laugh because it was it's like a cycle right of what happens as the days go along the first few days when you first meet your baby it's like oh my god I want this euphoric feeling 10 times over I want to do this again and again we're both on cloud nine she's still high on the drugs you know we're like let's let's have another nine now and then the next few weeks hits and I think we both looked at each other like never again yeah it was like you can't do it the sleep deprivation was like a form of torture and then we've gone into the next stage which is yes okay we want we want more children but we'll wait a few years.

8:25Yeah. Yeah. We, yeah, I do want more, but I'm like dealing with nine months of pregnancy again. That was hard enough. I can't do that right now. Definitely not. What's it? How old is Duke? Duke is four and a half months. Yeah, I think you're all right. There's no rush, guys. Yeah. If you're still able to say the weeks, I think you're okay. There's no need to rush. Actually, I think we said 19 weeks for the last three weeks, didn't we? Yeah, we get to. He may or may not be 20 weeks, I don't know. somewhere around the five week five month mark yeah yeah yeah and what time is he waking up in that one fit about that one he's a bit jet lagged actually because we went to america um so he wasn't waking up until like 11 a.m 12 in the afternoon i'm sorry your listeners are gonna be like sorry what baby is jet lagged how has a baby got jet lagged it was so slow like When he came back, he was sleeping, like, basically through the night and then would sleep, he would have, like, one feed and then sleep all the way until, like, 11.

9:24Yeah, he's definitely jet-lagged. It's crazy. He's like his dad. Yeah. Guys, what were your childhoods like and were they very different to each other's? Oh, I don't know. We both have trauma, I'm sure.

9:43No, my childhood was fantastic. in regards to my mum is an absolute saint and anyone who ever meets her just always comments on how sweet she is and you know how she'll do anything for her children um so you know if you want a mum that and you want a mum role model she she is that so she really is amazing um you know my dad had his difficulties um but I had a good relationship with him at times you know we did a lot together and my dad didn't say I love you but he you know did a lot for me to show that he loved me so I think I had a great childhood obviously it wasn't perfect there were hiccups you know my my dad's situation was was was hard but I think I was quite lucky for my childhood I mean like I raced all around the world in go-karts you know I did any when that sport ended I went and joined a theatre school.

10:40I did anything I ever wanted to do. I was very fortunate, very privileged, very lucky. And you've got a brother as well? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that was hard because he was this absolute model student, straight A star, head boy, went to Cambridge. Is he older as well? Three years older. He wasn't, you know, too extroverted. So like, you know, growing up, he was responsible. And I was just the one that was doing everything wrong. You were so different, even to this day. I got kicked out of a school, maybe two, I can't really remember. You know, I wasn't that good at my... I was good at my academics, but I didn't apply myself, and I could have done so much better.

11:20So, yeah, it was a great childhood, but it was hard at times. Everyone's childhood is going to be hard. And in Camden, is that right? Well, I was born in Camden, grew up in St. John's Wood, but then moved out to around North London sort of way. Oh, OK. Yeah. OK. All right. Alice, what was yours like? Not that exciting. Not compared to yours, no. I would say on the whole I had a great childhood as well, but I had an illness called chronic fatigue syndrome, which basically meant that my immune system was very low. I was tired a lot of the time. So I spent about three years out of school, really, because I was too ill to go.

11:57I had it originally in primary school, so I must have been in year five, but that was a mild version. And then when I was in year eight, so I must have been 13 or 14, I got the worst version and I was off school basically until I joined again in like year 10, year 11. Yeah. So I definitely didn't have the experiences Sam had growing up. That must have been so strange as well. It's like seeing all your friends going off and doing things or just knowing that they're together all the time. Well, yeah, I think because it ended up being that long, I ended up losing friendships because my mum would be worried about me going to sleepovers because then I would overdo it and then I would have a crash.

12:36So I'd probably be ill for like two weeks after that. So I was very limited in what I could do. I didn't really see many friends during that time. And then I had to rebuild friendships once I came back to school, really. And then it was scary coming back to school because I was like, oh, I don't have any friends. Also that period of like when you left and when you joined, you're like, you're a proper teenager by that point, not just a new teenager. You're like, there's so much going on that it must be really daunting to re-enter that space. It was strange. Yeah, it was a very strange time. I remember the first few weeks I would like walk around at lunchtime not actually have anyone to like sit with.

13:12So I'd go to the library or like go to the toilet. Yeah. Oh, that's really sad. I could cry. It was sad. I was also sick as a child. I mean, my parents were fantastic in not letting that affect my childhood, as I previously mentioned. But I was also sick. I was also hardly at school because I was racing and I was in hospital. When you were younger, did you ever look to your future and kind of go, I'd quite like a family of my own one day? I feel like I was so caught up in like what was right in front of me that I didn't really ever have time to process what my future would look like. because I was so distracted with what was going on like right in front of me.

13:52With being on Made in Chelsea as well, I would imagine that your focus is very, it's not in this other world that maybe doesn't exist within the show. You know, your focus is very much, I would imagine, on those storylines in that show. For me, the show was, it was a time of life and it was about having fun and enjoying it. Sam was single and then I came along. and it wasn't just about being single I'd gone to theatre school I'd loved the camera I'd done podcasts which you know in in the past around business um I'd done loads of stuff around camera I'd been in theatre productions I'd done adverts my family are on reality tv so I was like this is gonna be fun and that was it that's probably a really nice way of going into it Because I think there's so many different reality shows now where people go in expecting something, expecting that other layer.

14:46That's a really nice and freeing way of doing a show like that. As long as you are united and don't go, let's not get sucked into the drama. I like what the show does for us because it really is our lives. It's followed us getting engaged, getting married, having Duke. And I think to look back on in the future, that's going to be such a cool memory for us to have recorded, basically. So I felt like we were very aligned and I was like, wow, this is really what it's supposed to feel like, which was a weird feeling. And I think, you know, so much nowadays, you know, people are encouraged for, you know, whatever works for them.

15:21I've got no, I would never impose on other people on how to do things. It's whatever works for you in your situation. But there's this feel of way more casual dating nowadays. days and I think we just had the respect for each other from day one that we were gonna give each other each other's full attention well also your health must have really been made things very intentional as well you know take away like let's be really intentional about what we're doing here and what we're what we're what we mean to each other I think it definitely magnified things but you know previous to me my health suddenly falling off a cliff um you know Alice had practically moved in with me so we'd gone on these dates you know she we were dating we were boyfriend and girlfriend and yeah we were basically living together and then all of a sudden the health debacle hit and you know it was something we had known about could happen at any point you know in in the future but it hit us like a train and uh I always say us I'm very inclusive and everyone joined my heart and my health journey but when I say us and we because I feel like Alice my mum my my aunt, my brother, they're all on the journey with me.

16:31I've got to say, that really does come across in the documentary as well. It feels very much like it's not just a you. And actually, it's also because when you first got your diagnosis and everything, you're a child, right? So that weight of that, the weight of the reality of that would have been carried by your parents. So your mum can't suddenly be excluded from that experience because she has had to carry the weight of that. And I imagine for her, there's probably almost a guilt of now you being the one that has to carry it when she probably felt much stronger being able to carry it. It's funny, as you relay it back to me, I get shivers down my spine about, you know, the documentary because I think, and this was such an amazing thing about doing that documentary was, I think we all started to understand each other's journeys more.

17:20And this is why I'm such an advocate for reality TV and these documentaries. You have to actually sit down and talk, otherwise there's no show. There are conversations that probably wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for that. Well, the Vanderpump family trait in Jean is we don't talk about things. We come from a very old-fashioned British family, so we wouldn't have these intense conversations. So reality TV, the documentary, it really put a spotlight, and at times we would like to, you know, the producers, they wanted us to have conversations, and we would like, no, we don't have those conversations.

17:53I look back on it now and I go thank god we did this documentary thank god we had the producers around because it helped us all get through it as a family unit and it really made me understand because as I mentioned to you previously my childhood was amazing my health didn't affect me but for my mum that was such a different story and I don't think I ever understood that growing up and I still don't really understand it today so in a way she was probably protecting you Yeah, of course. She didn't want your illness to define your life growing up, I don't think. 100%. Also, now being a parent yourself, you can kind of understand what that would have been like for her.

18:30Yeah. I mean, God forbid, you know, anything was... Duke was to be diagnosed with anything tomorrow and we'd be told that he would need some kind of transplant. I can only imagine at some point in the future, maybe, maybe not, who knows, but you'd hope... yeah, you just have to protect him because I guess I'll do exactly what my mum did, you know, distract me up until the point where, you know, I can, he can do anything he ever wants. His health's never going to limit him if it, if I can stop that. And then when that time comes, hopefully I can be there to help him. And I think that's what was so hard for my mum was, you know, going along this journey was obviously in the documentary, she finds out and in our real world situation she finds out that she couldn't be the one to be a live donor which she'd always i know she'd always thought she was going to be in the back of her head yeah so that was a really hard blow for her because ultimately you just want to be able to fix your child right if anything happens to Duke you want to be the one that you want to have the answers and and for her she would have always had that thing of wanting to be the little piece that can that can heal you and so to not have that that must have been really really difficult yeah I think it was really hard for her over 20 years she's had that in her mind that she could be the one to help and also getting that diagnosis over 20 years ago technology would have been very very different the people that in terms of case studies were being able to see people that had gone through it they would be less than there are now everyone's a bit more visible now so she would have felt very much out on her limb in that way So to carry that, it's amazing now that the world feels like a much smaller place.

20:16So there are people that you can reach out to that have gone through the same things as you. Yeah. And it's so interesting that we talk about this and, you know, but there's still some regards today where you go, we know talking about things makes things easier and it helps. but it's still your kind of inside character which still holds you back from wanting to talk and it's getting out to actually talk about things. I mean, I think you're struggling with things right now and I keep having to have conversations with Alice about, you know, research says if we talk about things that you will feel better afterwards and it feels shit when you talk about it but when you come out the other side, you look back and you go, oh yeah, that did help.

21:05And I think it's really hard with people like us because we're quite logical thinkers. And I think we're quite mathematical. Not me right now. Oh, my gosh. Emotionally, I'm... But I think normally we're, like, mathematical. So one plus one equals two. So if we can't get an exact answer for why we're feeling this way, then we find it quite pointless to talk about it. Or I feel like it just opens a can of worms. Like, I've been very emotionally volatile at the moment. And Sam's, like, really been encouraging me to talk. And I think it is helping. But then it's like opening this big kind of worms of emotions.

21:40And why do I feel like this? And will I ever feel better? And it's like, I don't know if I have the capacity to actually deal with that right now. Like, because I'm already struggling day to day, like just looking after Duke. I'm like, I don't want to open a can of worms of emotions on top of that and then feel worse. That's really hard. I'm suffering at the moment with post. I can't remember if it's postnatal or postpartum depression. and we've only realised recently in the last few weeks, I would say. And how has that sort of come about? How have you sort of come to that conclusion? How has it manifested?

22:13I think I was just waking up every day and I realised that I'm not happy. You know, my outlook on life was very negative. I realised the anxiety I'm experiencing every day, the fact that I can't eat, you know, I can't think about anything other than Sam's health, my health, Duke's health, whether Duke's going to die or not. Like, I realised that those aren't normal thoughts, you know, to be feeling every day. And I think it was really just talking to Sam and opening up about it that made me realise how bad it actually is because I think part of me was protecting myself. I was putting a bit of a barrier up.

22:47So do you feel like you've been hiding that from other people? Yes. We had a weird conversation the other day because Sam was like, you appear happy when we're out with people. Like, do you just put up a front? And I said it's not, it's a really hard thing to describe because I can enjoy moments, but it's my overall feeling. I might come home and I just feel exhausted. Like I don't want to get out of bed in the morning. My attitude on life is bad. And it's a weird thing because it's not a front with people. You're not faking it. I'm not faking it. I am experiencing happy moments, but overall I don't feel happy and I don't see how life kind of improves or like I wonder why I feel like this when this is everything I've kind of wished for, you know?

23:33Did it happen pretty much straight after birth? This is the weird thing. No, it didn't. So we went through a difficult period because we were both so sleep deprived and like now people are like, how are you? And Sam's like, oh, we're so much better. We're out of that end. And I think that's what triggered me to realise something's wrong because I was thinking, I'm struggling way more now than I was then. It's only got worse. And then like my brain starts to panic because I'm thought, aren't I supposed to be feeling better by now? But I'm actually getting worse. I don't know if, I think it was roughly the four month period.

24:04Really? Four months after, I just went really, really downhill mentally. And then there's something that kicked off the sort of chain of thoughts in our head was Alice started the contraceptive pill again. And we think that was probably your peak of... Yeah, that spiraled me. Which is obviously hormone inducing. The influx of hormones, yeah. Yeah. So I said to Alice straight away, come off the contraceptive pill. You need, you know, let nature take its course. Let's hopefully get your hormones to stabilize. And we thought hopefully that that would be, I mean, I always surrender. I know nothing.

24:40I can't relate, you know. But like you said, you're a mathematical person. You're a pragmatic. So you're trying to find the solutions. Yeah. You know, and that's very difficult when it's something like postnatal depression. But you are, as a partner, you're trying to fix, which is admirable and amazing that you're coming at it. You're actually seeing Alice where she is and coming with something rather than just going to deal with it, you know, and you're taking it seriously, which is incredible. How did that, coming off the pill, did that change anything? I expected to feel better straight away.

25:11And with time, like, we realised I still feel bad. If anything, I'm starting to feel even worse again. Nothing about what I'm experiencing is about Duke, not wanting Duke, feeling overwhelmed by him because he is literally the best thing in my life. I look at him with so much love. I love doing everything with him. It's more like I'll look into the future and I don't see me in the picture. I see Duke with Sam and I don't see where I slot into it or I have so much anxiety that I'm not being a good enough wife or being a good enough mum and that everything I do is wrong or the tiniest things. I keep making these mistakes and it's reaffirming in my head that I'm not normal anymore.

25:52or I'm not good enough, or that my brain doesn't function the way it did before. And I just, yeah, it's just, I feel like I've almost lost my identity a little bit. Yeah, I mean, you make me emotional when you say it. The idea that those thoughts go through your head, honestly, yeah, it brings tears to my eyes. It's a weird time because I've never felt so supported, like by Sam, for example, but also so isolated, because I can't explain what really goes through my head, and like feeling like this and people talk about it before you give birth they're like oh postnatal depression's a thing and I remember my mum telling me what some of the warning signs are and I brushed it off because I'm like oh I'll be fine and when it hits you it's so strong and I can't describe what I'm going through and then when I try and talk to people about it it's like I'm 24 I don't have any friends really that have babies people can't relate Sam can't relate he's not been through this before and I feel so alone I then want to shut down and not talk about it because like obviously he wants a solution but then what are the solutions change something in your routine the thought of changing anything in my routine gives me so much anxiety because I already focus on just trying to get through a day and adding something in the mix of that is like too anxiety inducing so the way that um that sort of thing feeds as well it It feeds on you keeping it all to yourself.

27:18It feeds on, you know, you saying that... It feeds you on things that you would be ashamed to say, right? Things like, they'd be better off without me. You know, I'm not a good mum. Like, those thoughts that come, which are absolutely down to postnatal depression, not that they are thoughts of you. When you're not in that irrational mindset, you can't rationalise when those thoughts come, right? They're just there. They're completely irrational. Yeah. absolutely and that is how postnatal depression presents itself as fact right that that it's factual like i would wake up this is so strange like it was less about duke but like for example i would think oh my god sam's going to divorce me today and then i would have this this like feeding anxiety all day like panicking panicking and i'm like has he ever done anything that makes me feel that like where is it what is the rational basis of that thought and there is nothing but i'm living life like every day with one thought or another that's irrational like that's an extreme example but this is what I mean by lack of sort of identity because I don't trust my own judgment on things like I I will have an emotional reaction to something and then it's like a battle in my mind because I'm like is that a valid response or am I being dramatic like do I have grounds to feel like this and like trying to decipher what's rational and what's not is really confusing for me right now when something changes and shifts does it feel really overwhelming really really really overwhelming really overwhelming and then the energy that I feel like is being consumed day to day with these small things that aren't even like physical is so draining and it's manifesting physically for me is it like not being able to eat not really being able to sleep you know being so drained and tired from everything I think mentally feeling like I'm not really showing up for Duke enough, even though I am.

29:06I'm doing everything that I need to do, but in my head it's like it's not enough. And anyone else telling you that you're doing enough is just simply... Yeah, it goes straight over my head. It doesn't help. So what have you done in the last few weeks now that you kind of have gone, right, this is something that needs to be addressed? How have you gone about that? Because I felt so isolated, I thought there's nothing to be done. And that's, again, we feel like it's the only one, right? We're the only one to everyone's going through it. But it's not true. And Sam drilled that into my head. He was like, there are millions of women in the world that feel how you feel.

29:40And there are things put in place to help people like you. So the first thing that I did was make a GP appointment. With a lot of encouragement. Yeah, that's a lot of encouragement from Sam. And again, this is where I give my praise to reality TV because producers are like our therapists. We speak to them about what's going on in our life. And I say to them, this is what's happening with Alice. It's not my place to share this information, but I want you to be aware. And, you know, if she's ready to come forward and then she then it starts to encourage that conversation. And then there's other people saying, yes, I've experienced this or yes, this is a protocol.

30:17And it slowly through all of these things, even today, I believe, you know, speaking to you here and having this reassurance, I believe it helps. And I found entering into this career with reality TV and whatever we do, I found it really therapeutic. And I can only hope that Alice is also going to help from that. And I know that you don't feel like you're, you know, you're not healed. You're still in it. But the stats around maternal mental health are shocking, right? They are awful. and having someone like you on a show that people are watching, they're absorbing, they're invested in your story, saying that you feel the way you do, going to a doctor, Alice, you will actually save lives by doing that.

31:07And that is absolutely massive. It's a gift. You're giving people a gift by being able to talk about it so freely. It's so strange because at first I didn't really want to talk about this because I don't think I could understand it myself. And I thought, how on earth can I express it to anyone when I don't even understand what's going on in my own head. And it's brave to do it while you're actually going through it rather than hindsight. On our last series of Made in Chelsea, Sam and I were quite open and vulnerable with our struggles in our relationship, in being new parents, because I feel like everyone's like, this is the most amazing time of your life.

31:41And if you don't go, yes, 100 % it is, people are a bit taken aback by that. But the reality is, behind closed doors, it's not that smooth sailing. I have always said the first three weeks, it's funny hearing you say the word torture. I felt like the first three weeks were torture. And that's why I always used to sell the podcast in the early days because my kids were still really, really young. Whereas now they're a bit older. And I literally used to think like, oh my God, what have we done? And that's not because I don't love my kids. I love my kids. How blessed we are to have kids. You know, my first ever pregnancy had a miscarriage.

32:15I was so blessed to have my eldest. but still that same point nothing I would never do anything to change it but fuck me what have we done yeah oh it was hard and we were so open and vulnerable about that I think the response like I had specifically I've had probably like 500 messages in my DM saying thank you for being honest and vulnerable that things are not that easy it's being authentic because yes it was the absolute most euphoric best moment of our lives there was hands down there have been those moments but you're allowed to not just feel that one feeling, right? It's a little bit more nuance than that.

32:52And so I think, you know, we could have easily just let Made in Chelsea in on that euphoric, beautiful, you know, Made in Chelsea style, beautiful lit situation scene. But we want to be authentic. We want to talk about everything we're going through, the ups, the downs. Hey, before your Q3 call, I've got the campaign brief ready. built from last quarter's data and the competitive landscape. Great. Did you include the differentiation angle the CMO asked for? Already in there. Three angles no competitors using right now. Just need your approval. Approved. Thanks. Oh, agents, where would we be without you?

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34:45so how how are you feeling now oh to be honest that question yeah i don't i don't know how to answer the question because i'm like in theory fine yeah i do feel fine and i'm so happy with every single area of my life i've just started going back to work like everything is amazing our relationship is fantastic duke is growing up amazingly like watching his developments are fantastic but I can't shift the baseline feeling that I have of feeling like pure shite yeah and that's to put it politely like yeah and for a while I was worried where does this go will this ever change I feel stuck I feel like it's going to be like this forever but I think because we've had such honest conversations in the last week and I feel so supported by Sam I know that it will end it hits home for me quite a lot with my dad and the fact that he committed suicide.

35:40It was a real... I don't know that anything could have been done, but I know not enough was done with my dad because of so much more in-depth stuff with my dad. But I just know in my heart not enough was done with my dad. And I don't know if anything could have ever been enough for him. And I think that was a real, you know, something I've got to get through. I'm still trying to get through today. but my my view is i don't want to ever feel like that again i don't want to ever feel like did i do enough so i think that's why i just want to constantly you know and it's not without its challenges but give you support to tell you you know let's speak about it tell you what your feeling is okay um yeah and just trying to work out how we move forward and my only experience is myself you know when I found out that I needed a liver transplant it was a really really challenging time for me I've never suffered that that much with my own mental health but doing the documentary speaking about everything I was going through and that all I can say is that helped me I I'm it helps you process it helps you to not feel alone I think you know so you can say it to me now say it to yourself yeah but talking I think has helped me it really has it just feels bad in the moment for me but i think what sam actually does that helps me is well actually it's all it's all it's all because we spoke about it actually it's all the actions have changed because we've spoken about it but the way what i'm going through will manifest is in i will be very flat in conversations or i'll be very reactive to things and at first sam didn't understand that and sam will react to my reaction right yeah and he'll not get it or like i'm just being super forgetful and he goes how can you not remember where the keys are and it's through talking where i'm like i'm already driving myself insane over these things but there is no logical part of me that can explain why but i just can't remember things my brain isn't working i tell him how i'm feeling and now i might spill water or something and then i'm like oh my god like i'm so stupid why have i done this and he goes alice it's a glass of water it's okay it's not the end of the world and he will help bring me back to a rational mindset before it goes too far or he'll remind me you know that things will pass he keeps me calm he keeps me grounded he makes me feel understood and like supported now this too shall pass my favourite saying I think it's everyone's favourite saying I think it's every parent's favourite saying yeah it is key because it's so true and everyone knows the saying this too shall pass but I feel like it's so important that like partners need to understand this more and be a bit more understanding of what women are going through.

38:27Because I think if you weren't understanding, if we hadn't had these conversations and you didn't listen, where would we be? We'd probably be butting heads because you emotionally don't have a clue what I'm going through. 100%. It's only because you want to understand, you're trying to understand, and you're listening to what I've told you. And that's not without me failing sometimes, reacting sometimes, not understanding. but it's you know we just have to overcome that so there's a good repair then though isn't it like none of us are perfect with our reactions so it's being able to kind of go hands up i didn't react well yeah sorry you know it's all in the repair yeah 100 and i think we we've always had this in our relationship since we first started dating was you know it was just speaking openly and it's just about you know communicating and i think it's been our one thing to each other is always communicate um and you know let's say there is a a heated moment we just managed to always end up communicating you know whether an hour has passed or so so whatever you know because some people like talking about things straight away i'm like give me a bit of time i've got to let it let it kind of go down the bubbles have got to rest i would want to talk about it straight away i wouldn't of being a rational mindset but I'm not in a rational mindset to talk straight away yeah no yeah you want to and he wants to solve things quickly whereas I need time to process what I'm going through yeah when I need to decipher my emotions I need to try and see it from someone else's standpoint and I really do need some time to do that and not be reactive but I think we've I think we've got it quite good trial and error guys a lot of stuff has happened here over the last two years yeah oh my gosh oh my god yeah so much good and bad yeah I mean, it's a roller coaster.

40:13Yeah. That's for sure. I mean, I think I said this in the documentary. My therapist said there's enough to write a novel in the last two years alone. Your therapist is like, well, he's going to keep coming back. There's just so much going on. I feel like we say this a lot as well, but Sam did tell me he was like, life will never be boring with me. I delivered them that promise. And I don't like boring, so this is great. Good and bad. I meant when I said not boring, I meant, like, let's go travelling and, you know, let's buy a house and, you know, let's not health. Well, can you remember when you found out that you were pregnant?

40:52Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It happened quite quickly. It happened quickly. Was there a point where you were both like, right, we're ready? No. Okay. Kids hadn't even been discussed yet. We'd only been engaged for, like, three months or something. So what made you kind of go, actually, I should probably take a test? And I think I'd missed a period, but I have polycystic ovaries, so my periods are random anyway. I think it was because of a friend I had that had been pregnant before. She said her sense of smell was the thing. And I was having all of these emotional changes. We had a housemate at the time, and I remember crying like four times in one week.

41:29And I went, why do I feel like this? My sense of smell went when the fridge was opened, and then my boobs were really tender. and I was like, maybe I should take a test because I'd been on a shoot because I do modelling and they were like, when would you have kids? And I started thinking about it. I was like, I don't know. I was like, God, I need to go home and do a test. I did a test. I was absolutely shocked because I thought I would know and I had no clue. So were you, what you had, do you know that she was doing a test at this point, Sam? No. No. I mean, we'd only just got engaged. I mean, I think it was shock.

42:02We were shocked. Which doesn't mean that moment, Alice. That moment of having that positive pregnancy test, what was your instant reaction? I saw two lines. Future Chook listening to this. Yeah, I know. It was, oh shit. I saw two lines and I thought, wait, what the hell does two lines mean? So I'm like scrambling to read the package and I'm like, and it took me like five minutes to process what two lines actually meant. And I just opened it. I feel really bad saying this now, but I opened the door and I turned to Sam and I went, we have a problem. Because our plan, was obviously get married. We wanted to move to America.

42:38This is before we knew Sam needed like a liver transplant. Like the plan was move to America for my career, you know. And I'm like, everything is blowing up in my mind in this moment. I'm like, we have a problem. I start crying and I just get into the shower. And Sam's so chill. Will he thrusting along to Justin Bieber at this point? That was a different time. Will he stop it to a sad song? And Sam comes in, he's like, why are you sad? I was like, I don't know. I'm not sad I'm just overwhelmed because your mind springs to what life was supposed to be versus what life now could be and I think once we had sat there and processed it it was amazing and we were both super excited but he actually went straight back to work calls after I told him that was not the reaction I expected I was for me it was just again support Alice because I knew we were going to have children at some point and whenever that was going to be was when it was going to be I love this song well of course he was so fine I was like if you want children now we can have children now you know that's it like if for some reason you don't want to do it now you know then we won't do it now I mean we talk about divine timing though and like I think we very quickly came to the realisation that everything happens for a reason no one is ever ready my dad told me that he was like no one's ever ready just because you don't feel ready doesn't mean you aren't ready.

44:04You know, everything happens at the right time. What's interesting, we actually did go to our parents for support. How were those conversations? Because obviously we said, because I think we wanted to gauge their reactions. We were scared of, oh my God, these idiots kind of thing. And I mean, we were most surprised by Alice's dad, you know, obviously. And he was just so supportive. And all our parents, I mean, we knew our mums were going to be supportive. We did know that. but I was waiting for the oh shit or oh are you sure but have you thought about this or but we were waiting for all of those things to come from any of the parents and then especially Alice's dad and all three of them went fantastic but only if you want to like oh this is fantastic and then your dad couldn't control himself yeah he was over the moon I think we both knew we wanted children we were both we were just scared and he's so perfect like I wish he was here so you could see his face he's so cute He's so cute.

44:59He's so delicious. He's currently being circled round the studio with my mum, who's a massive fan of yours, by the way. She absolutely loves you. When I told her we were doing this podcast, she went, oh, my God, I listen to her podcast all the time. She's my favourite. I love Giovanni Petra. Oh, she could have come on. We've never had three guests in one. Oh, could you imagine? Isn't it amazing? Yeah. That's very, very sweet. So then moving into the pregnancy, How was the rest of the pregnancy? I have to say my pregnancy was not good. I feel sorry for you. You know, like you see these mums. I mean, and I'm sure it's a polished mum look from the outside, but they're like all over social media.

45:42Happy bump, glowing. I've not seen a single picture of you not looking glowing. Oh my gosh. I was in bed every day being sick. She was pale. She was, you, yeah. The last time I messed up. You speak about your pregnancy. Me telling everyone about your pregnancy, sorry. no Sam had a phantom pregnancy actually so I was lying there and I was like I'm honestly so ill I can't eat but I need to eat I can't get up I can't get water I need someone to make me food and he's lying on the sofa with me going oh yeah I feel sick too I need a nap as well and yeah just going through everything I was going through was it legit or were you taking the piss?

46:21no no no it seemed legit no I swear to god we have this thing whatever we've no this sounds so oh we're gonna get i'd actually get destroyed for this online do you go through everything to get do you feel her side cross out no no i'm not saying that no no but i feel that's why you were going no no i'm not going there i'm not going there for this but we do no maybe you're just so empathic that you've felt my pain there we go yeah that's what i was going for yeah yeah yeah yeah my pregnancy was not good and i went through probably five different tablets until I finally found one that kind of helped the sickness.

46:58But even in my last trimester, like we had, we would barely, the whole way through, we would barely go out and we had one event. It was a charity event for Sam's friends. I forgot to take the tablet, didn't you? No, no, I took my tablet. Oh, you took the tablet when you were sick all over my car? Yeah, but like, basically, if I'm out for more than, yeah, if I'm out for longer than an hour at that point, it would just be too much and I would start to feel really unwell and I was like, we need to go, we need to go now we couldn't go out for more than an hour I forgot about that so any time we went out or you got in a car again you were just you didn't feel but you also had other problems you were admitted into the hospital as well oh yeah they thought I was having a miscarriage but I wasn't thank gosh I just had a bad urine infection and I had like fluid in my kidneys they gave her a catheter as well yeah yeah what point of the pregnancy was that my memory I think that was around second trimester I think 20 i i was on the border so i was like 20 weeks or something right because i think if i'd been 21 i couldn't have gone in a and e i was meant to go on a like a hundred kilometer walk and uh instead we wouldn't have made it anyway i'm sorry i would have collapsed i don't know why i thought i could have done a hundred kilometer walk in one day or it was for a charity thing and uh my friends all did it and they all basically nearly died and i think it would have been the thing that tipped me over the years.

48:20Look, I head up Treks for Copperfield and if either of you ever want to come along and do a little bit of trekking, we're quite slow in our pacing and we're brilliant. It's all about the vibes. It's all about getting anywhere fast. I've actually been advised that I'm not, not that I was ever going to do the London Marathon. We're way off subject here but my mum is amazing, like really into her CrossFit, very very fit and ended up, she did the London Marathon once, did it in four hours and six minutes or something and she's re-entered again since we i've gone on the uh transplant list yeah uh the waiting list um and uh yeah so she's re-entered again she sort of turned around but she makes everyone else now have to do it so the first person she tried to convince was me and luckily the doctor said no sam's actually not allowed to do a marathon he's awaiting an organ he's not allowed to do a london marathon when the focus turned to me i nearly had a heart attack because I'm so unfit.

49:16I'm probably the most unfit to a four-year-old. My mum gets really disappointed. So if she was here, she would try and convince you to do the London Marathon with her. Gosh. Yeah, yeah. Thank God she's not here now. You're like, yes. Anything you want. Honestly, she's got a really good convincing nature as well. She's like, but we'll do it, we'll do this, I'll train with you and everything. Is she one of those people that is literally telling you what you're doing before you've actually said yes? Yeah, yeah. And then when you say, like, break it to her, you can just see, like, the letdown. She doesn't hide her emotions well.

49:47So you just see the letdown in her. I felt so bad. But I'm like, I tried for three months to even get to 5K and I couldn't do that. And I was lying on the park floor, like hyperventilating. So I'm like, I wouldn't be able to do it. And she was like, I think you can. I was like, I can't. You were saying upstairs about you had initially wanted to have a water birth. Yes. Talk to you about it. So when you actually finally start leaning into the pregnancy. I'm actually going to take the mickey out of her here because she's got the worst pain threshold ever. Are you sorry? Sorry, says you. Anyway, yeah.

50:23She's supposed to brush a baby out of her vagina, all right? I don't think it's something that you can have an opinion on, Sam. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I went to my antenatal classes and obviously they cover every topic when it comes to birth and I was listening so intently when they were talking about water birth. When it came to C-sections, I was like, oh, I'm never having a C-section so I'm not going to even tune in for this part. And I was so short, so short up until two weeks before. Not necessarily because I wanted to have an unmedicated birth. I genuinely just felt like being on a birth centre, not in that hospital environment, it's a bit more relaxed, in water, because I am a water baby.

50:59I love water so much. I thought that's going to be my most relaxed state. Sometimes we're just drawn to something as well. Yeah, and I thought if I could have an epidural and be in the water, great, I would do that. But no, yeah. and then two weeks before i don't know what started to change it in my head i think it was because i was having really bad pelvic pains to the point i was like this is like it was braxton hicks but it wasn't because it was so painful and i was like if this is anywhere near what labor feels like i can't do it i absolutely can't do it and then i kept being taken into hospital and i think they were a bit worried that i might get pre-eclampsia right and i spoke to one of the I spoke to one of the doctors and he was like we wouldn't we won't allow you to go over your due date right so he was like if you want to book in a c-section close to your due date and then if you go into labor beforehand try that way try to do it vaginally if that's what you want yeah and I in my mind I'm like yep I'll leave it to fate that's exactly what I'll do great the night before my c-section was scheduled, we were walking around Harrods with Sam's aunt and I was like, hmm, something feels weird.

52:10I couldn't walk. Why did most stories about our health start with, we were walking around Harrods? Yeah. Pretty much all of them. You're the maiden Chelsea, Lauren. But I couldn't, yeah, I was taking steps. I'm like, that's a lot of pressure. I'm feeling a lot of pressure. And Sam's aunt was like, do you want to come out for dinner? and normally I would never say no to her because she's quite, like you don't want to say no to Lisa. And I was like, yeah, no, sorry. I said, I like need to go home. I need to like rest. I need to relax. And it was only the next day that I realised, wow, I am in labour.

52:46Well, we were walking round and Lisa made the joke. She went, what are you going into labour now? She was like, sit on the floor in Chanel. Hopefully they'll give you a free bag. I love that that's where her mind went. She was like, yeah, yeah, if you're going to give birth, give birth. and Chanel they'll give you a free bag and I woke up the next day and we were timing my contractions and I'm like wow they're like six minutes apart or something so by the time we got in I told them I was like I think I might be in labour and they went what do you want to do do you want to try and I think I'd psyched myself up so much at that point for having a c-section I was like I've only just wrapped my head around that this is what I'm doing I can't change it all now so I didn't You actually need to follow a plan.

53:32You're the sort of person that needs to follow a plan as well. I'm extremely last minute, but once there is a plan in my head, we have to do it that way. Also because I guess so much of the health stuff was happening around the same time for Sam. Was there a sense of trying to take some control in one of the situations at least? Literally. I think that was exactly it. The doctor kind of turned around to us and went, there is a certain amount of control. We can control the, you know, cesarean, the C-section. when it comes to you know uh vaginal birth there's a lot we can't control and i can't tell you with any certainty that these things won't happen and obviously alice was a high risk because of certain conditions that alice has i have bladder problems as well and he was very much like we can't well i can't guarantee that you're not going to basically be incontinence within a cut you know i'm like 24 that is too young to be incontinent for the rest of my life i can't yeah so i think it was exactly what you're saying it was taking control for alice and yeah it was i think i think there had been a big relax a little bit there'd been a big thing with sam's transplant of we have absolutely no idea when that's going to be yeah and that is so scary the thought of like not knowing in a weird way not knowing when duke was going to come was scary as well and it was just strange it happened that i went into labor around the same time but that just having that control almost Also, even though you're told at the time it could be 18 months to two years, right?

54:55When that's still quite recent news, you don't think about the 18 months to two years. You think about it's going to happen now. And now we're realising it's such a strange journey because there's obviously this very complicated algorithm, which takes a lot of different factors in, which calculates who's a priority. but I think what it really comes down to is how sick you are. They transplant the sickest first unless they're too sick and I think that's literally it and so with me I'm not sick and I've just got to essentially wait on this list which could be up to two or three years and we don't think I'll get sick at all at the current trajectory.

55:39I mean, I don't know. After the first time you got seriously sick I'm like, that could happen at the drop of a hat at any time. Did it happen at the drop of a hat the first time then? I mean, it seemed like flu. He had like a flu like cold for a week and all of a sudden, you know, he's nearly on death's doorstep. But that was an infection. So I think what it's really complicated. My liver is not working, but it's working enough that my day to day, like my disease is very complicated. Essentially, there is no blood going through my liver. But it's found all different paths into my liver and is still working.

56:19I don't really understand how long can it work. But it's been working like that for the last 18 years or 25 years or since. But it's just been getting worse and worse and worse. But then they also comment on the ultrasounds that there's no change. So it's very, very complicated. The actual journey we're going down at the moment is my brother might end up being a live donor. Right. And that he's pretty much passed nearly all of his tests. It's something that you've really been conflicted about as well, right? The idea of someone that you love doing it. Yeah, I mean, I was completely against it at first.

56:57And then after a lot of talking and a lot of understanding that the risk to a live donor are so minimal because of the amount of testing they go through. then my head tried to come around to it because obviously the fear I have is I'm not going to put any of my family in jeopardy and I would never do that and it was only they said well you're not you know you're the risk is so minimal because we do all the testing beforehand to make sure there's literally no risk to them but at the same time and this is you know we still haven't confirmed this route we still haven't outright accepted him yet and he's still not passed all test and there's still one in 250 chance that something could go wrong that's they give them the breakdown they give them that mathematical breakdown of these are the odds going back to birth yeah you went down the c-section route how was that the actual day was flawless once you made that decision did you feel calmer were you just like okay it's so clinical isn't it i i get scared you know about being in hospitals i don't like needles i don't like hospital environments in general and i was quite concerned about having an epidural like the idea of that needle like in my back but then when i got to hospital because i was in labor they gave me some pain meds which probably helped me i was giving all the big chat which was oh i'm gonna be this side of the curtain and I want to look and I want to film.

58:33And Paul Brunson, you know, hyped me up for this. He told me about... He could tell me into doing anything and be like, yes, Paul. Literally, he was like, you've got to see it. Like, I was filming it. I didn't listen to the doctors. Doctors were turning me off, this and that. I got into the operating room and it was like, there was 20 people and they operate in such unison and they went, sit down, don't move, don't touch anything. I went, okay, sit down. And I was like, I was told I was put in my place and I did not move from that scene. Yeah, I mean, you were shaking when you walked in. Yeah, and then they take Alice away.

59:05They literally strip her down, put things up her bum, things in here. I didn't know this until after. Yeah, yeah. I'm just watching like 20 people surrounding her putting things up her bum. And I'm like, oh, this is graphic. I'm none the wiser. I think I'd rather it that way, to be fair. And then, oh my God, they started cleaning everything. I felt nothing. I felt absolutely nothing. Because obviously once they put the epidural in, I mean, luckily I didn't get to get a full frontal show of this, but they put a curtain up I can tell they were cleaning I would say the experience was amazing but it happened so fast I couldn't actually process in time like to be scared I thought I would be scared but it was going so fast you were shaking a lot going into the theatre massively I was like this and I think they said it was because of the medicine actually yeah I forgot about that yeah Sam thought I was dying oh my god yeah I wasn't so obviously I got I mean talking about Alice's experience is all about how Sam felt during Alice's experience.

1:00:01I think it's because you have health anxiety. Yeah, I really did. So I was sat there and Alice is trembling and she was scaring me because she was trembling so much. So all I was doing was holding on to Alice's hand. You were great. Trying to give her some confidence and support and everything is going to be good. I'm here with you. And I think because you're so unprepared, you don't know what it's like. She's awake and they're cutting her open and they're putting something out. And I think, I mean, get that in your head. You know, they're cutting you open and pulling something out of you while you're awake.

1:00:32That's like horror movie stuff, right? When you really think about the detail of it. Anyway, so I think we were very nervous, very taken back by everything. And then there's an anesthetist who's like the guy you talk to, right? Because obviously the surgeons are all doing their thing down that end. But then all I'm watching him do is keep putting meds and all the vitals spiking and the heart rate going up and this doing that and the blood oxygen. and then she's like fiddling with this and fiddling with that and I'm thinking oh my god why is her heart rate going up why is this happening why is that happening and like I keep on seeing put loads of drugs into Alice and I'm thinking she's going to die I'm going to be left to raise duke all on my own she's going to I don't know what I'm going to do I was having the intrusive he's smiling at me though I thought I can't I can't show her that I'm feeling all of this I was absolutely having the obviously intrusive thoughts because he said to me afterwards he went yeah she's undergoing surgery you think her body is going through a lot obviously all of this is going to happen that's my job as the anesthetist to keep her at a stabilized level you know that that's my job what you think i just sit here and do nothing i was like oh yeah that makes sense it's like that went perfectly i was like right okay so i sat there for like what however long it was panicking for no reason do you reckon it was four minutes?

1:01:54yeah no I would have said 20 to 30 minutes but from what you can see you can't see any surgery can you? no I mean they lowered the curtain I yeah this is the bit I was surprised by when they say are you ready to meet your baby I expect that the baby is out he wasn't so they pull the curtain down and then they pull him out of me so I can't see much but I can see like this is graphic but like skin you know coming back And like skin's gripping onto him and then Jabba the Hutt comes out. Well, you don't realise how obviously he's filled with liquid. Fluid, yeah. So he's like, he's been sat in a...

1:02:30And then we said, oh my God, he looks so like... The first thing I said, this is so bad looking back. But I went, oh, he's swollen. That's the first thing I said. And I went to, Alice, you go take a bath for nine months and see how you look. It wasn't actually the first look. I think it was the first sound. yeah we heard a little eh right before they dropped the curtain and in that moment I think we just both looked at each other and melted bawled out crying it was like this is real this has happened he's here and I think that was the euphoric moment that we describe was like which we would want you'd want to do again and again it was like that just overwhelming like it was the sound of his voice and his it made everything real and it was like oh my god this feeling was crazy and you fear everyone says oh you fall in love straight away but you of course fear that that's not going to happen for you yeah you worry like and i don't think it does happen for everyone but for us both in that moment it was the most magical like i didn't even know i could feel love this strong i think it was so intense for me that i felt like i could be sick really yeah yeah literally and i i i'm i think i am an emotional person at times but other times i'm always at the wrong time my emotions are a bit all over the place you are very emotional i was very much thinking going into that i think we both were worried weren't we we hadn't built this attachment we were quite numb we had so much going on in life like with sam's health especially in a few months leading up to this i don't think i got to appreciate the good about having a baby because we we were kind of living in a state of like constant fear and anxiety and life was quite scary actually i just don't think we got to enjoy your pregnancy because we were constantly in and out of hospital for you me and you were sick and we didn't know where I was going so we didn't get to enjoy Alice's pregnancy at all and then there was even a moment where I sort of said oh I'm worried about you know obviously mothers have this connection because they've grown the baby inside their tummy and I'm worried I don't have that connection and then we had a conversation after that and you went I'm worried I don't even have that connection I was so numb to everything emotional at that point because we'd been on such a roller coaster I was concerned that it wouldn't feel real like I'd be in autopilot mode and I think we can only say this with such confidence now because of the emotional overload that came in after when Jake was born.

1:04:52And, you know, that's why we can be so forthcoming about these emotions that we were feeling, you know, in the build-up to his birth was we had no connection. I wasn't that excited. Also, when you've got, it's like before you get married and everyone's going, you must be so excited. Yeah, we had the same thing because we got married in the depth of, like, everything to do with Sam's health as well. Well, everything over the last two years has been in the depth. I mean, it's been an emotional rollercoaster of ups and downs. But I think you always feel like you have to go along with the, yes, I'm excited, go away.

1:05:22Sometimes it's just easier than explaining, right? Yeah. There's a time and a place to go, actually, I'm really worried about the bond. I'm really worried about this. There's just no connection to this. What was that first little bit of time like in the hospital? Oh, my gosh. This is so bad of me to say. I was going to say, I'm not going to lie, I was on so many pain meds. It's a bit hazy. And there's actually a great video, which might, so obviously we were so in the moment, the last thing you think about doing is filming. And if anything, you get annoyed at cameras and my aunt comes bursting through the door, camera in hand, sticks it in Alice's face.

1:05:58And I'm like, I'm like, this is what I'm going to say. I was like, at the time I was like, come on, Lisa, time and place. And then I look back on it now and I'm like, oh my God, I'm so glad she did that. That was such an amazing thing. She was so thinking ahead. She was so smart to capture that. It's our first words to Duke. And she even asked, like, she even was, while videoing, she didn't just stop at videoing, she was asking questions to try and draw out our feelings. And we look back on that video. I mean, they used it in the documentary. It was that good. I could cry watching it. It's actually the best video ever.

1:06:30But it's so funny watching Alice's reaction because I can tell you are just so high on those pages. Do you know what it was? I also must have had some kind of allergic reaction to one of the drugs they put in me because I was so itchy. all over. My throat was itchy. I couldn't swallow water. But because I was kind of not with it, I didn't tell the doctors that it was that bad. Yeah, you really do need to make them aware of them because the next reaction can be an anaphylactic shock. So you really need to make note of that. I wasn't able to... I did tell them I'm itchy and they gave me medicine for that, which I think made me drowsy.

1:07:03That's probably what made me drowsy. But I wasn't able to express how bad the itching in my throat probably was. Yeah. were you relieved to get out of there i mean no i think i was in i was in for two nights so i in a way i wanted to be in my home environment but the second you leave you don't have strong pain meds anymore and you know having a surgery that serious being sliced open i was in a lot of pain straight away i wanted to get up like the next day lying there for that many hours i was like i need to get up i said to the nurse i was like please let me up i want to have a shower i want to get moving something was wrong with my catheter as well like my wee was not coming out and i said to her i was like i don't think this is right like i was having so much pain in my bladder she tried to change something didn't work leaked all over the bed and i said please like can we just take this out so she took it out went to the toilet that was fine had my shower that was fine i came out of the shower and it was like even just that 10 minutes of doing things i nearly passed out i nearly threw up i had to sit back down on the bed and like take a minute.

1:08:08I think I was quite scared to leave the next day because progressively the pain got so much worse. I don't think women are told enough about that side of having a cesarean or post-birth because, you know, you go into that thinking already of what you're going to be like as a mum as soon as they come out and what that role is. And then all of a sudden you do not, you're not able to factor in your pain, the inability to do anything. And I would say I was up doing things quite fast. you know we had various things to do like photo shoots work related things on week one yeah like duke was on made in chelsea on day seven of his life so i was up and moving very very fast and subsequently because of that i accidentally opened my cut a couple of times because i was up moving way too fast and i to be honest i would say i wasn't feeling okay until five and a half weeks i mean was there a point on day seven then when you literally went what on earth are we doing I was probably running on adrenaline.

1:09:08I think we still were. Week three is when it really hit. Really? And I was still in so much pain. I'm crashing down. Because I would wake up in the night in fits of anxiety and I would bolt upright. And obviously you don't have stomach muscles to use, really. So I would sit up and I'm like, oh my gosh. And then I would be sat there in so much pain. And week one, you still have pain meds at home. Week three, you don't have anything. and I can't believe how long it took to feel even better. The pain stayed for a long time. Yeah. Honestly, I wouldn't say five and a half weeks. Even to this day, I get pain.

1:09:42Really? Like nerve pain, I think. Yeah, I don't know if this is normal for women who go through C-sections and we've discussed that you need to potentially see a doctor about it, but you still have pains and if I touch Alice's scar, she gets all like... I get really funny about the scar. Really, like, so I have to be really careful around the scar. There's numbness. Like, he might knock me and I'll be like, oh. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And we don't, there actually isn't a, I don't know, we just didn't get, you didn't get knowledge around whether that goes, whether that's normal. I was so rushed to make that decision to have a C-section.

1:10:23I probably didn't get all the information I should have beforehand. Yeah. Because I made that decision so last minute. it what do you think being parents has taught you so far it's taught me what unconditional love is i thought i knew what that was i really didn't it i think it's taught me patience massively in my relationship okay i'm joking she's fragile right now mentally maybe not like I test that patience. Patience with you. Yeah. It's taught me to have a lot of respect for parents out there and for my mum. Oh, yeah, that's definitely... It taught me a lot about my mum. And I feel desperately sad that one day there will be a period, actually for most of Duke's life, he will go, oh, you're so annoying or this or that.

1:11:16You do so much for them. and they don't realise. You don't realise. Because all they've ever had is that. Yeah. They don't appreciate it because they kind of expect it. You feel so bad for not appreciating what your parents did more. My boys are 12, 10 and 7, so I've got three boys. And I often now just go, I grew you. And they will go, oh, mum, whatever. Shut up. Yeah, we know.

1:11:50I know the reaction because I would have the same reaction If you could write a letter on parenthood on being a mum on being a dad who would it be to and what would you say? I know we just touched on this but it would probably be an apology to my mum it probably would and like I'd talk about how much closer I feel with her Yeah I think mine's similar it would definitely be to my mum We end the podcast with you completing three sentences. The first one is being a dad means, being a mum means. Being a mum means carrying on the circle of life, learning unconditional love. Why do you remember that?

1:12:29No, no, no, I didn't. I laughed. Sorry. Learning what unconditional love actually is. You might think, you know, I thought I knew with Sam, the love for Duke is so much... More unconditional. Yeah. Yours not so much. So different. So different. Being a dad means? I know it sounds old-fashioned, but I genuinely believe in providing security and comfort and support. I think that's my biggest role, to support Alice, to support Duke, to make them feel safe. That's, for me, what fatherhood's all about. Next sentence, since having a child, I... Since having a child, I've learned what is actually important in life.

1:13:18I can't copy.

1:13:23Since having a child, I've matured. And I think that's every dad. I agree with that, yeah. And finally, I'm happy when? I am happy when Duke is asleep and I'm rested.

1:13:41I'm happy when Alice and Duke are happy. I should have said that but you went first Alice, both of you, thank you just so much for coming on and talking so openly and honestly and I think it's so important to note that postnatal depression is so nuanced and there are going to be moments where you can talk about everything so simply and there are moments when it just all comes crashing down and just feels so overwhelming so it's little by little it's checking in with yourself and doing what you can to be kind Thank you so much for having us this has honestly been such an amazing conversation hasn't it?

1:14:24Thank you for having us, we feel very privileged I feel privileged

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