Sara Pascoe on trying to protect her comedy career from fertility struggles

0:01Coming up on Happy Mum, Happy Baby They'd said to me in the hospital, like, when your milk comes in, you're going to feel this big sadness, and none of that happened. And I remember thinking a few days in, I don't need to sleep. And I didn't know I was manic. I remember thinking, because I was reading a novel a night. Oh, no. The thing that had been putting me off about IVF, I was like, how will I go and do gigs if I've just done a negative pregnancy test? Yeah, yeah. Or hormones, or like, how will be on TV in a panel show going, oh, yeah, that politician's got bad hair. So there was all these things where I was like, trying to protect my work from the emotions.

0:33with Albie, I was like, try not to do so many pregnancy tests because it's such a waste of single-use plastic as well. It's the other thing. They all sit in my house. Hundreds and hundreds of pregnancy tests, just discoloured. No, used ones. Yes, used ones. Because it felt superstitious to throw them away. And at some point, I will have to throw them away or my kids are going to have to grow up in a house. I'm a hoarder, but only for used pregnancy tests.

1:01Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's guest is a presenter, a comedian, a podcast host, an author. Basically, she does it all. She also has two children. It's Sarah Pascoe. Hello. Hello. How are you? I'm all right. I'm tired, actually. Are you? And I know that lots of your listeners and yourself will sympathise. And actually, I was always hoping with this podcast that we would do it on a day where I wasn't going to shift on parenting. Like a good day where I could be like, you know, the magical stuff. But instead, my baby was up from two till four last night.

1:35You know, and they can't tell you why. Yeah. And he's 14 months old today. So like with my first, it's like, we should be past this. I said, well, I went back to bed and said to my husband, like, it's three years now, nearly, we've been doing this. We're still, like, when's the sleep through going to happen? And then my dad's come over from Australia and he arrived at five. Wow. Yeah, we're really broken. I say we, but only I'm here to tell you. Tell the tale. You're telling your honour as part of the collective. Yeah. We're broken. Broken, yeah. Is that like a rare thing? No, no. Teeth, teething.

2:10You just always presume it's teeth. Sorry, you go to all the three months. I know, and the internet goes, it should only be bad for two or three days. And it's like, what? It's like 18 weeks. just one tiny little tooth creating all this havoc and our older boy so he's two and three quarters he still doesn't sleep through but what he does now is just come into our bed so talk me through your night what time are you going to bed and when are you waking up so last night my husband had a gig which is great because usually it's me having a gig but it does mean in an ideal world we'd go to bed at ten but we sort of had a chat in the kitchen you know those little rare moments where you're actually having a gig no you need to actually have that little bit of connection but hi it's you and to sort of reconnect as a team and stuff.

2:49So we had a little bit of a chat and it wasn't a major thing. And so we went to bed probably at 11. And then after 30 minutes, Theodore came in, who's our eldest. And then, yeah, at two, I heard Albie, who's the baby. If he wakes up, he just won't go back to sleep and he won't take a bottle. And obviously you just don't know what's wrong. So once you've changed a nappy and given him a cuddle and he just wants to get up, he's just sort of flinging his legs around. Yeah, like wants to explore the room, wants to poke something. He loves to press his white noise machine because it has a light that comes on.

3:20And once the lights come on, it's game over. It's game over. He's fiddling. I think you need a new contraption. Yeah, do you think so? Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Ours were always, we used to have those clocks where the sun comes up to let them know it's the morning time. Then they realise that they could just press a button. Yeah. So they didn't have to wait. Sun's come up now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you mean go to bed? It's up. You told me. Yeah, yeah. Missed it. That was night time. It's gone. Is your eldest in your bed with you then from that moment? Yeah. Yeah. I always find it so much easier. I think it is because at least then you sleep.

3:50But they do headbutt and kick and snore. My husband actually really likes it. But he slept in his parents' bed. Sorry, I'm outing him. But he slept in his parents' bed. I'm not going to say to what age, but I mean, it's Willow. It's nine. It's the age of nine. I'm sure that's okay to say. That's okay. It's okay. So basically his parents, I think, each sibling got replaced by the next sibling. and he was the youngest for a long chunk until they had another baby. So he had a long chunk of sleeping. So I went away to Leeds off and on to do sewing bee and by the time I came back, everything we'd done in terms of progress with his sleep was gone back because he was like, I like the cuddle, you weren't here.

4:30Yeah. So you're feeling it? Yeah. I'm feeling it and it's like, yeah, not recovering from it. And it does flavour a lot of the other stuff. I don't know how actually in nature we evolved to be like this is a species but how does it work that the adults that are in charge are sort of brought to their knees? Surely that's dangerous. Surely they're dropping babies from trees and feeding them the wrong berries. Surely we should be so rested so that we can be good at this really important job, right? Surely for continuing the species. It's bad nature. When you were younger, did you look ahead to your future and see children?

5:09No. No? No. I went through a really long evolution from definitely not wanting to have children. First of all, it was because of ambition. I thought it was selfish. If you wanted to dedicate your life to something, you should give all of it to that thing. And children, I thought it was selfish because if you have children, you should give them a lot of yourself, everything as well. And so that was probably my first sort of incarnation of not wanting kids. And then I didn't want to have kids because I thought I'd be a bad parent. I think I went through a lot of that in my 20s, not just because of selfishness, But I think maybe my parents had me, my mum's a teenager still, my dad was in his early 20s.

5:46They were so young, accidental pregnancy. And it wasn't a great thing for their lives as it was so hard. And having been through that, I was like, and then I was like, yeah, and then the pain ends with me. The bloodline ends here. And I thought I wasn't equipped for it. And then after my sisters had children, towards my late 30s, maybe mid 30s, maybe 36, I started to think a lot about what comes next and when you've had a very self-based job I did think okay I don't know how to continue this into my 50s and 60s in some way even if it wasn't going to be having my own biological children it's what they call in psychology the generativity stage I knew I wanted now to be a useful member of society and to families and I thought maybe I'll run a drama group maybe definitely the next stage now involves thinking about other people and I think it's much healthier for the self to be good and to share and those kind of things.

6:41But then so my boyfriend at the time, he wasn't that keen on having children. So we sort of tried a bit half-heartedly and sort of like, oh, if it happens. But he wasn't particularly keen. And I already knew then that I must have fertility issues because we weren't getting pregnant. Really? Yeah. And then when I met my husband, so that relationship broke up. And then before we even kissed, my husband, now husband, told me that he knew I was the person he wanted to have a family with. And he's Greek-Australian and the Greek side is strong. And so he knew he wanted to have children always. And so he put it on the table straight away.

7:19How did you feel with that? It was... Actually, what I really loved about it is it was so un-cliché. Yeah. That I didn't have to be a woman in her late 30s going, oh, by the way, if we're going to have kids, we have to do it immediately. because he before anything was like, just so you know, I want to have a family with you, I think we'd be good at it. And he said, they have to have my surname. And in a way, it's sort of the only thing he's ever put his foot down about. And I sort of, what's hard for some people, including myself in your 30s, is just going, will I or won't I? How hard am I going to try for this?

7:51The headspace of, should I be doing this? You know that there's positives and negatives to having kids. You know this is massive change and you know that you don't know what it's like until it's happening, which is really a messy head to have. So in a way it was nice to have someone who's really definite about it. Yeah. But then when you were already questioning your fertility, was that also like a worrying thought? You know, that kind of this is someone that really wants that and I don't know if I even can. I see. Well, actually, I think I still thought it was sort of fated. I wanted 40 to be my cut off.

8:25I read the Sheila Hetty book. I don't know if you've read her on Motherhood book. so she's doing it's a book where she's an American writer and she's doing I Ching actually to sort of ask them if she should have children because she's approaching 40 and she talks about how it's how having a line in the sand she just wanted there to become a point where you go from don't have children to didn't have children and that is and I thought 40 great that's the cutoff and I turned 40 during the lockdown beginning of the lockdown and we'd been having fertility treatment which had lots of tests I'd found out that I had polyps that I then had removed and so that's why I hadn't been able to conceive and and then 40 was coming out and my husband Steen he said he wanted he just said can we really try like and I think he was really brave to say that and then I think we were quite brave to do it because I was so desperate to just go no no let me be in control and then go we didn't especially because I know not that I I knew I was going to have a nice life I really really love my job and I'm so grateful for my job so I could have absolutely owned not having children.

9:28And we obviously had all the discussions about adopting and fostering and other things to do. Yeah. But Steen, it was really important to him to have really tried. Yeah. And I think he was right to do it. But I think it's quite hard because there were some privileges involved in terms of money because we paid for our fertility treatment and that isn't necessarily an option to lots of people. Yeah. and also because of lockdown I'd lost two years of work essentially anyway so it was the most perfect time to throw it all and risk it whereas the thing that had been putting me off about IVF I was like how will I go and do gigs if I've just done a negative pregnancy test yeah hormones or like how I'll be on tv in a panel show going oh yeah that politician's got bad hair you know so there was all these things where I was like trying to protect my work from the emotions so I think we were quite lucky with Covid which is not again another privilege to say but how was that when you finally said let's go for it let's go down the IVF route and actually start trying well it actually made me feel more in control and I talk to quite a lot of people because this is what happens doesn't it you end up in support groups because people have had similar experiences to you and I love it because I said the thing you know about IVF is even if the answer is it didn't you then get to go I did everything I tried so hard I got my answer I know you won't have to look and go, oh, but what could have or you shouldn't have to work hard at getting pregnant.

10:51For lots of people, that is what it is. It's temperatures and health and times of the month and compromising, not drinking, not eating things, everything you can do. And if that does end up in a person, you're like, OK, we absolutely worked our asses off so that you could exist. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. How were you during that process? Were you scared going into it? I mean, had you read lots about it or listened to lots about it? I didn't listen to lots about it. I think probably I should have done. I didn't do very human research. I think this might be a stand up comedian thing. We tend to always think we're the first thing.

11:26The first one to go through anything. Anything, yeah. So hearing about someone else, it's like, no, no, no, no, I think I know. Yeah, I got it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, have a baby. Yeah. Injections? Sure, sure. Yeah. So I wasn't very good at listening. And when I spoke about it, I must have, I don't think I did speak about it until I was pregnant. Because it felt, I definitely didn't want people feeling sorry for me on stage. I was actually quite spiky on stage. I had this persona much more of not wanting children and doing stand-up about the downsides of having children. I remember doing Catherine Ryan had a TV show and doing stand-up at it four months pregnant.

12:03And still at that stage it feels so uncertain. And you don't want to confidently tell people. And you then have to share what happens afterwards. But having a routine about how you should be able to see what kind of children you were going to have before you had decided whether to have them or not. So there should be like an advert. And it was like, this is Stephen. and he likes playing computer games and his favourite food is pizza and you can be like, I'm alright, I don't think the world needs another Stephen so I remember having sort of like a protective veneer because the vulnerability of going through it and again you're going through a process not knowing the answer but I remember the healthcare professionals being really, really kind because they see everything and they see everyone and they see it work as well so I don't often think about it, that's the other thing is that you then get through it and then you're so busy with your kids.

12:55It's only when I speak to someone who's like, you know, in their two-week wait or something. Yeah. Oh, my God, yeah, that was so terrible. I remember running to a job once. You know, you're told not to get stressed. Pregnancy in general, the whole thing, like, you're not supposed to get stressed. I had a gig in Peckham and then last leg. Again, someone must have pulled out, so I had the last leg. And I was running for this train, I was sweating, and I remembered, oh, God, I've done an embryo transfer. And then by the time I got trained, I was in floods of tears thinking I've ruined it because I had a bit on and my heartbeat was like through the roof and I was sweating.

13:25I was like, oh, God, I've got to, God, I've ruined it. All that money, all that time. Yeah, yeah. It's weird where our minds take us. But I also think that's the truth with them trying for a baby in general. When you know you're trying, there's this liminal space between pregnancy and not pregnancy where you know the midst of your cycle and you know, and being due on is so similar to being pregnant that you're going, well, I'm either pregnant or I've got my period coming, so thanks, body. That's such a hard place to be. And you're sort of behaving sort of pregnantly. And I think that's what IVF is, is you're sort of pregnantly all the time.

13:55Because when they're doing stuff to your eggs, all of it is you have to behave like you're pregnant, which is so hard for your brain. Did you conceive all your children naturally? Yeah, I did. But you must have friends who've been through. Yeah, so many friends. And it's such a hard thing, I think, to go through in friendship groups as well. Because, you know, you're all wanting children. And then for some it happens really, really quickly. For some it takes time. For some it has to go through the IVF. We had a lot of losses within our group as well. Yeah. And then you have, like, it was a loss, and then someone else's baby shower would always be, like, yeah, the same week and that kind of stuff.

14:29Oh, I had my, so my first pregnancy ended with a miscarriage, and I went to a friend's wedding the following week, and it's that thing of kind of putting on smiles and being there and present and no one really knowing what you've been through. And it's a very, I don't know, I would say it's the loneliest grief, I think, baby loss, you know, when you've gone through that, and it's not happened. did your IVF work straight away? It came, my first one was a loss as well and it was really weird I'm going to compose slightly I know that it's okay to get upset about it it was so ridiculous because having not got pregnant we got pregnant as we were waiting for our first IVF round so it felt like magic and the unfortunate thing was I got really carried away with the narrative of like we spent all this money and it was you waiting this whole time so I just got really I was so happy to be pregnant and then when I lost it I felt so stupid and all of that stuff and then it made everything that came after very not enjoyable I totally relate to that feeling stupid thing of letting your mind go get carried away during my first pregnancy I literally felt like it was too easy because I had PCOS so I was always told that it was going to be difficult which they have to tell you don't they yeah so I was on metformin I was on clomid um and it happened and what so then when I started I instantly as soon as I saw the pregnancy test I was like this has been too easy actually I was ready for all the other stuff and then when I did did lose the baby I was like well of course and you know but there's yeah you're not going to get it too easily yeah but there's that feeling of failure your first entry into into that world that you you know that it's ended with yeah I think it's I think culturally we're much better there's so much more representations of it and stories of it but it felt previously like all you ever saw were people looking at tests and deciding what to do and there wasn't like that sometimes you don't get to decide what to do sometimes that decision's made for you and yet I wouldn't have gone to a wedding or anything I mean I think I think you're really brave for going there and just getting on I think it was so so when it when it happened my friend who was getting married she had to make her favours and she kind of I love her for this because Tom had to go away for work and she came over with her favours and we literally sat there all night she made food we sat putting stickers on packets of seeds or whatever and there was that thing of I knew that someone else was there and it was a really lovely thing to have that person there and I think I went to the wedding not feeling 100 % you know I wasn't and and you know you hear I think we shared it to a couple of people and there was someone who said oh you know well my doctor said you're not really pregnant until you're 12 weeks anyway or there's the whole thank god you can get pregnant at least you know people and there's a stand-up he's called Bobby Mayor and he does a stand-up about something completely different which is that he's adopted and he went to find his birth mum and actually by the time he found her she was dead and people's second question was did you find siblings and he goes don't you dare try and find a silver lining in my misery and with the miscarriage that's what um people try to tell me reassuringly that it's so common and like it's like if I had lost a loved one in a tsunami you wouldn't go but thousands died yeah it's like that's my person or that this is my grief so it's both things isn't it it affects so many people but your one is still if it's if it's huge then it's huge it can minimize the other thing I really struggle not to say this to other people now who are going through it but some people say you know like they'll go it's like nature practices like you have one it happens in lots of mammal species the first pregnancy and then the next time it's okay but that's no consolation when you're still bleeding or trying to adjust to the and all those dates in your diary it was that Like I then worked so hard, too hard for my pregnancy and early motherhood because I wouldn't have a space there.

18:38I was not going to allow yourself that time. I was not going to have a bit of my diary where I'm like, well, at least I can now do this. So after that, did you find yourself at a point where did you think, do we need to go down the IVF route? Did you feel like you were a bit in limbo and how much time did you allow yourself? None. no it was more so I remember we had to went to go to the hospital for the scans and all that kind of stuff to find out it's definitely gone and allowing myself a coffee on the way back you know now I can have some caffeine and um calling the nurses at the clinic and they were basically like we can treat this like a period and then your next period we can do the IVF so we just did it straight away which I don't know if I'd advise or not but I was so aware of age I was doing IVF in my 40s and what I'd said what Sina and I talked about was like let's try for two years doing IVF and so I thought I was going to do three rounds a year and just absolutely just and then because you're working out numbers as well like at my age with like this you know the same with the PCOS and this if we do this amount then this is so percentage likely to work but actually it's not maths it's so arbitrary in lots of ways PCOS if you've had a lot less ovulations, it can mean you've got quite good egg reserve, which I did have.

19:55Right. So which is a benefit if something you've always been told is negative. Yeah. Yeah. And so how did that first round of IVF go? That's how we got Theodore. Really? And so then we were just after this. I mean, I was so anxious because it followed a miscarriage and because I'd been pregnant and lost. And so I had every single twinge. But it felt completely different, the pregnancies. Did you find that? Yeah, absolutely different. Because then looking back, I was like, oh, I was having a miscarriage. All those symptoms were miscarriage. And then the pregnancy ones were, there's just a security about it.

20:26Like if it wants to dig in and stay there, that's what it's going to do. Did you allow yourself to lean into that pregnancy and to believe it and to, you know. I had therapy. Right. And again, it's a privilege, but I would so recommend it because I needed to talk out loud about someone who absolutely specialised in this situation. Yeah. Because you can't just assume you'll be able to find friends in the same place. and I couldn't visualise having a child. I'd spent so long telling myself I didn't want children, wasn't going to have children. I was then in a state where I felt stupid for being happy about being pregnant and then I was in a situation where I was pregnant a few weeks, early days, knowing that anything could happen and had to have someone talk to me a lot about talking to the baby, visualise this, and she kept saying, but you are going to have a baby.

21:11And I was like, but I can't picture it so it's not going to happen. I just can't see it. My husband wouldn't do anything in the house. It's like we would make it unlucky. So we were the people a week before a baby's being born going, well, where are we going to put it then and what should it wear? Really? Yeah. Just didn't want to jinx it almost. Yeah, jinxing it. Almost the thing of being too lucky. Yeah. Yeah. So that week before, did you allow yourself then to kind of go? I talked to the baby. Obviously, they move a lot. And so I had lots of conversations with him. And I did. That must be such a weird thing to be growing a baby, to know that it's there.

21:52But to also. I just wanted him out. Yeah. I wanted him to be out. And then it was like on him if he was alive, not on me anymore. I just felt like, oh, it's just too big. And I had a C-section plan. So I knew exactly when he was coming. And that's the thing with IVF, being older, you get put down. And especially following a miscarriage, you get put down as a. High risk. High risk. I was going to say difficult, difficult. Because he actually was a textbook pregnancy, but he was down as a high risk, so planned C-section. And then all of it was just business until I hear he's alive. And then, okay, now that's on you now being alive, or not on me anymore.

22:28On the C-section, did you feel like that took out another element of risk as well? Yes, that's the thing, is I wanted to know that they knew his heartbeat all the time. I watched the Channel 4 programme, One Born Every Minute. and because you see so many people having very stressful births, that's what I didn't want to be having is the, okay, you know, the baby's in distress. I wanted the baby to be absolutely calm. Yeah. Yeah. What did you do birth-wise? I did hypnobirthing, but all three were really different. Yeah. One ended with an episiotomy. The other one flew out like he was expelled out of my body and I literally held onto the side of the bath, the pool of the birthing pool and I ended up having a numb finger for about a month because I'd had to cut off the blood supply in your hands so when I came around to say you know how's it going yeah everything's fine but I can't feel my finger yeah and it stayed that way and then the third time around was uh just a long long labor just kind of sort of stop starting and I realized I forgot to breathe so I was kind of like breathing just into my chest rather than trying to you know.

23:35Yeah so subconsciously you were tense and holding Yeah, yeah, yeah. So all really different Yeah. But yeah, they're here. Yeah exactly, you did it. How did your so was there a mad dash to get things ready at home? Did you allow yourself to do that right at the end? Yeah, we painted a nursery, we got some furniture I honestly don't think we could really believe it I think we were so astonished when we were holding him Really? Yeah, just absolutely astonished How did you feel going to hospital and getting into things? It was really lovely. I mean, going into hospital was really nice. We went private.

24:09I mean, it's just, I really wish that's what hospital was like for everybody. And it's expensive. Yeah. But in terms of things you were going to spend money on, I mean, it was, for me, such an amazing experience. It's just so organised. And he was born at the exact time they said he was going to be born. You know, they said it will be about 2 o 'clock and it was like 1.55. Early. Yeah, early, five minutes early. and they were really jolly. No one was, it was all, they were laughing. Everyone was laughing. My consultant realised I had a Japanese symbol at the bottom of my spine and was making fun of me.

24:46Yeah, so that experience, and they have lovely food and things. Did you feel anxious? By the time then, I just wanted him out to be alive. That's what it was. I was anxious throughout the pregnancy. It was all just I think you're constantly looking at survival rates. Yes. If you have them now. Yeah. And all of those lines in the sand, if I can get them to there, and if I can get them to there, then, yeah, it was lots and lots of that. And so I think it's relief actually being there on the day and being like, oh, he'll be here later. And also it's that thing of, you know, I know you're saying about once he's out, it's on him, but actually once you're in the hospital, it's almost on the professionals.

25:27Yes, they all have to handle this. Yeah, so it's no longer on you and what you're doing. You're being taken care of as well. Yes, yeah. Yeah, by people who do it all the time. How did it feel when you saw it for the first time? God, how did it feel? It's so odd because it's like a complete inversion, implosion of the world because, as I said, this whole time this was not my narrative, this was not my story, this is not who I am. And then in like split seconds, you go from don't have children, didn't have children. Honestly, I really thought it wasn't going to happen. And it's like going all the way back to the beginning.

26:06Rewind. OK, so it did. And then it's like a rebranding. It's like a complete rebrand. And now you're Sarah. And Steen has always wanted to be a dad. I don't think it was as much of that for him. But for me, it was like, oh, whoa, OK, bang. Especially if you've not allowed yourself to even go there and to think of yourself as a mum. Yeah, all of these things, like we went for the first, so Theodore started nursery at 15 months, and so a couple of months after that was Christmas, and they invited some parents in to stand in a circle, and I was just in floods of tears. This was never my life. This was never going to be my reality.

26:38So I'm always, I'm really overwhelmed at those moments. I'm like, I can't believe I'm here. Yeah. Steen hates it because at nursery they call you mummy and daddy. And I really like it. Do you? It's really cheesy, but it keeps reminding me, like, that's the thing you did. that this is the big thing you are now.

27:02Did you stay in hospital for a few days? No, just two nights, yeah. And how was it when you left? It's lovely when they're in a sling and you think, oh God, it's so hard, a little baby, and then you look back like, oh my God. They sleep all the time, they sleep all the time. You watch so much telly while breastfeeding I actually got loads of writing done because I was sort of... Did you? Sorry for snorting. I got loads of writing done because I was sort of manic. And for the first 10 days, I was so high. I remember seeing parents coming over from Australia and they kept going, sit down, sit down.

27:35You've had a C-section. I couldn't feel any pain. The C-section, they'd been like, you won't be able to walk for two weeks. And that, the other, it was fine. I was in Tesco's pushing a trolley the next day. Right. And I remember thinking, I can't tell anyone. But it's like I'm on MDMA. I was so high. And they'd said to me in the hospital, When your milk comes in, you're going to feel this big sadness and none of that happened. And I remember thinking a few days in, I don't need to sleep. And I didn't know I was manic. I remember thinking, because I was reading a novel a night. Oh, no. Yeah, because I was, my, Theodore, it's funny because both of my kids are so different about milk, but Theodore wouldn't latch.

28:08Breast milk was too slow for him, so I was pumping for him to guzzle it in a bottle. He was really, really hungry and got frustrated breastfeeding. So I was feeding him in the night and then I was having to pump to go back to bed. So I was just up for ages. and then we're thinking, yeah, I don't need to sleep and then day 10 I crashed. How was that crash? Oh, it's horrible. It's horrible. But then I feel I would never warn anyone because I think everyone has such different experiences and some people don't have a massive hormonal crash. So what did it look like for you at day 10? Well, it's very illogical, isn't it?

28:35Because you're mourning almost, you know, you're suicidal. You're thinking, I can't go on, no one needs me, I can't be alive anymore. Which is such a massive difference from the high that you've just been experiencing. And then also that you are still in charge of a baby and you're so worried about saying stuff out loud because, you know, we're all very aware. You say certain things in front of a professional. Yeah. And you're worried about the ramifications and you're hoping it will go away. And that puts people in a really tricky position, doesn't it? I think it does. Because if they, well, we know in a rational state now that you need to say those things.

29:01Yeah. That you need to let. People help you. Yeah. But actually when you're in it, you're like, well, no. And I don't think I'm particularly good at talking about things at all. Yeah. Or definitely not when they're happening. You think you should be able to cope. But yeah, there should be someone that you can gently say things to, or you hope a midwife or someone who understands. Because they do ask you all those questions. But it feels like... Yeah, any suicidal ideations? Nope, nope, nope. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. One of the reasons this podcast exists and why we keep going is the leading cause of death in new mums within the first year of suicide.

29:36Yeah. So it's not a one-off. It's not just, you know... Also, I think those scary feelings, because you, I think probably my worry would have been if you'd stopped me, I'd have gone, I'm so worried that someone thinks that that means I might hurt the baby. Well, I don't have any of those feelings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't that. Or just being so scared of starting it, talking about it. And then once it's out, you can't put it back in again. And go, actually, today I feel great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm thinking all what I said yesterday. Yeah. So I think I had a bad couple of days. But just in terms of like just torrential floods of tears.

30:07And it's so odd. Hormonal crying. it is your body more than your brain isn't it and I know that that's not necessarily everyone's experience or experience I didn't have it actually with I was really ready for it with the second yeah after having second baby and it was it was much much calmer did you allow yourself to sleep a little bit did we get any sleep I think all I knew was that this baby bit isn't the bad sleep bit I remember re-watching silent witness going this is the easy bit where they go back to sleep so quickly they feed for 20 minutes and go back to sleep yeah and Albie was the opposite to Theo where he would only breastfeed and wouldn't take a bottle for six months.

30:41So I've had both extremes. And also it means at least with that one, at least with Albie, you were feeding and not having to worry about pumping as well. Yeah, and you don't have to sterilise anything. You don't have all of the stuff to do. But then it does mean your partner can't share the feeds with you. I did get to re-watch all The Silent Witness. I mean, what's not to love? Yeah, exactly. And all of the clichés about when you are doing it a second time, just knowing how quick the phases go. Yeah, it's so quick. And he's now in the phase that I'd say is my least favourite, which is very ambitious physically, but with none of the dexterity.

31:13That's the one. It's the head injuries. It's the going front way downstairs. And how did you manage to make that a weapon? It's in that stage now. It's my least favourite. The stubborn. And when they can't talk, they go, about light switches and anything that they want to touch. So after those 10 days, when you had your crash, did you speak to anyone about it? No, no You talked to Steen I think we were both a little bit scared because we didn't know what kind of parents we were going to be it's just the most massive experiment isn't it you've got this hypothetical idea of what it might be like to have a family together and then you start doing it neither of you knowing I think Steen was really worried about loving if he would love the baby enough if those feelings would just automatically happen.

32:07I think he listened enough to other men to know that sometimes it doesn't, so at least he was aware, so he wasn't... See, Tom heard that and then that put fear in him and I think that almost worried him more, the fact that that can happen. And then I remember us both being like a week in and just being in floods of tears with each other, just being like, well, this is us. Not a what have we done, but certainly that kind of... But it is what have we done because you have destroyed the thing that existed before, which is two of you as a couple. It is gone. and maybe some couples find their way back to each other.

32:37The beginning bit, this person I loved and fancied most in the world, all I was doing is whispering him to shut the fuck up. Which just existed in the dark like moles. He'd be like, do you want to come to here? Shut the fuck up. As he's like, don't wake the baby up. Like, why are you making any noise? Oh, I've had mornings where I'm like, I can't even look at him because if I look at him, he's going to want something, you know, he's going to ask me to do something else. I'm so at capacity. I'm touched up. I'm at capacity in every single way. I can't have another person needing something from me.

33:06Yeah, they do lose. I think because being a partner in heterosexual relationships, and this is such a big cliche, so please don't tweet me, but it has a nurturing quality if you're a straight woman with a straight man. We can't help it. We can't help it. And it's like, she's dead now. I cannot help you. Fed for yourself. I refuse to do my husband's washing, and it's such a source of contention because it's all in the same washing basket, but he's really tall, so his clothes take up too much room, which fucks me off because when the washing basket's full, I have to put a wash on. And it's just like, his truck suit that he wore in bed.

33:41And I say, I will not do it. I'm doing three people's washing. I will not do your washing. Does he have his own laundry basket? No, I just leave his, I go through and I take out little baby clothes from under his big clothes. I said, I cannot do four people's washing. So what did that first year of being a mum look like? Did you find yourself sort of finding a rhythm and things lifting? I think I did a thing which is very common. And I really wish women didn't do it. And I'm now the person saying, oh, just enjoy it. Live your life with this baby that you've wanted so much. But my diary was ridiculous because it was some stuff that was moved from COVID.

34:16It was some stuff that I didn't want to say no to because I didn't know what it would be like to do it with a four-month-old baby. And now I see other people going through it. And I think it's so rubbish about our industry that we think we're so replaceable. There's no loyalty. so there's no guarantee and that's how we earn money. So it's not like we're not working. We don't get maternity leave. There is nothing else. So it's your investment in now and investment in future and it's the fact that you worked really hard to get here and this is your passion and your joy and who you are. So I was just working full time.

34:45I did three documentaries with him at four months old and it was so horrible and I had to get a nanny to come with me. My husband came on the first one and then he just went, I can't do this for you. And he was right to say it, he couldn't. It was moving hotels. it was these seven hour drives across Greece it wasn't fun and he was then alone with a baby with Albie it was much much better that I hadn't imposed a ridiculous diary How early had you gone back with Theodore? I feel like five weeks but I think I probably did a gig after three weeks but gigs is different because you just leave the house for a couple of hours and you come back and also with stand up comedy and it's the most beautiful job because you are who you are like if you're crying that's who you are if you're really tired you're out if you're mad and I kept my coat on that's who you are and it's allowed you've come to be you it's not acting but is that hard though when you've got set material and now you're like you don't know you write material for where you are right so you don't go in there and go so I'm single Tinder's really hard you go out and go I just had a baby three weeks ago I'm really mad I've only just stopped crying so you get to you very very much reflect where you are is there something quite freeing in that it's amazing yeah I think it's amazing because it's genuine human connection with people.

35:58Laughter is two things. One, it's saying it's okay. You know, we're all fine. And the other one is you're talking about something human that we absolutely all relate to. And talking about having children, if it's in the right way, you're talking to everyone at once. You're talking to people who don't think they're going to have them, people who definitely don't want to have them, people who can't have them, people who've got them, people who've got old ones and a sofa. You're addressing them all at once from a point in time. Yeah. Just to sort of let them in and ideally you should make them all feel grateful that they're not you although it is lovely occasionally I'll get a message at the moment when I'm sort of talking about having these two young ones and no sleep I'll get a message from mum going oh you've made me feel so much better about how shit my life is just nice yeah it is oh here's something I didn't know until I had children it's how supportive mums are to other mums yeah so I went to Australia and because I wanted to take Theodore to Australia to meet Dean's family, I put some gigs in in Sydney.

36:56So we went when he was 13 weeks old and all of my messages after gigs was well done, so well done you to go out and do a show when you've got a 13-week-old baby. And I was like, oh my God, what is this club? When I got off the first flight from Australia and I unpacked my bag, that's when I cried because I had packed two novels and a sheet mask as if I was going to do a face mask because I was remembering what flying was. And it was like, that's not your life anymore. novel and a sheet mask. No, but it will come back. Yeah, maybe. It will come back and your kids will turn to you and go, Mum, what have you got on your face?

37:28You'll be like, it's a sheet mask, darling, don't worry. I've got a lot of catching up to do. So talk to me about going again and having Abbey. Like at what point did you kind of go? Well, again, in some ways I wasn't very kind to myself because, again, with age, you know, I've been so lucky. I'd had Theodore at 40. the point that was supposed to be my cut off and not had children I became a mum, I had this massive healthy baby boy couldn't be more lucky but we had five frozen embryos from that round of IVF so I went and had the scan and checked that I was recovering from the C-section and it was like if I'm going to recover from all these embryos how many can they do a year, you know, I was working out the maths and how much of my life can I ruin if I'm about to get a failed pregnancy or like a failed round, failed round, failed round and I said to Steen I don't want to do more eggs you know so it would just be giving these embryos their chances and that's what I was basically working out over 18 months two months to recover in between and so I started when Theo was 10 months because if I had then got pregnant it would have been 11 months and that was enough recovery from the c-section and it was all about giving it the best shot so that we knew we had tried because I didn't think it would work again and then I was such a bad mood on the day of the transfer.

38:47I'd been to see an acupuncturist and for some reason, maybe it was even just lying down for half an hour relaxing, all this rage. Surpressed rage. Yes, suppressed rage and I was like, this is a terrible idea. I don't want to do it. We can't deal with the 10-month-old we've got. Yeah. Because he'd just started walking, which is when, you know, the injuries and the... And then you realise how easy it's been. This whole time you thought it was hard. They stayed where you put them. that little loaf of bread stage we were like oh yeah we're exhausted and so he just started walking I was like this is a terrible mistake we can't cope with the one we've got and Steen was like and that's when I knew it was going to work again when I was going we mustn't do it we mustn't and then of course went and did it really didn't think it was going to work do you think part of you was protecting yourself I think so I think I had to always tell myself it wouldn't yeah a little bit of control but also because you're just trying to tell yourself those things Of course you have to think positively, but you also feel like you have to be realistic.

39:45And you have to tell yourself your life is okay without it. Well, and I think especially after a loss, right? Because you want to protect yourself. Yeah, you don't want to get carried away. And you can't assume with doing an embryo transfer that it's going to work. And I just remember how long that two weeks had been before. So I think the embryo transfer had been like four or five days away. You're not supposed to test till 12 days, till the HCG, I think the hormone is, but it's high enough to show on a pregnancy test. But everyone does test earlier. could you test to see if there's something faint there and sometimes the reason they tell you not to is you can have hormones in your system from the trigger shots and stuff that show off on a pregnancy test so you get a false positive and then two days later it's blank so I had a gig somewhere like Nottingham and I did a pregnancy test on the train back so I wasn't with Steen and it's completely blank and I was hugely disappointed I was like oh god I hadn't realized how much I wanted this oh my god oh my god but it was only day five and I went home to Steen and I was saying I shouldn't have done it because this is why they tell you not to do it and And I know it doesn't mean anything, but I just did it.

40:42And then I went to the shops and got another pregnancy test. Really? And then there was a very faint line on it. He couldn't see it. I was walking on the street going, it is there. It is there. And that's when I knew. I was like, it is there. It is there. And he was going, OK. I was like, it is. If you hold the light, I can see it. It's so faint. The other one didn't have anything on it. Yeah. It didn't have anything on it. And then I just kept testing. That was the thing that happened because I had a miscarriage. I did hundreds of pregnancy tests through Theodore's pregnancy. It was so stupid.

41:09and I did all those ones that tell you how many weeks you are because I kept being so worried about the drop because that's what I hated about having a miscarriage. It's like I felt so different so quickly before I started bleeding and that's the head fart because then I was waiting for that. And then with Albie I was like try not to do so many pregnancy tests because again it's such a waste of single-use plastic as well. It's the other thing. They're all still in my house. Hundreds and hundreds of pregnancy tests just discoloured. Not used ones. Yes, used ones. Why have you got loads of them?

41:41Because it felt superstitious to throw them away. And at some point I will have to throw them away or my kids are going to have to grow up in a house full of these. Like it's the animated documentary. Yeah, like I'm a hoarder, but only for used pregnancy tests. But I did loads of pregnancy tests at the beginning of Albie and then this line got stronger and stronger and stronger and then on day 12 you get to ring the clinic and say I've had a positive pregnancy test and then they basically say, we'll be the judge of that, come in for a scan because they have to check that everyone, you know, that it's got a heartbeat and that it's growing.

42:11And then they, of course, you think it's, you're preparing yourself for that. A scam and they go, it's not growing, it's not attached properly or whatever. And then I was pregnant with a toddler going, this is an absolute nightmare, which is so ungrateful. If you're in your 40s, you've had IVF that's worked twice. You know, my mum was like, you're a medical miracle. You're a medical miracle. She went, I never thought this would work in a million years. In a million years to get pregnant twice. Yeah. You know, I'm the luckiest woman in the world. And I kept thinking, I can't remember pregnancy being so awful last time.

42:42But then I also remember that no one was kicking me in the tits last time. But also you kind of blocked it out in some way. You weren't... I think it's hard a second time because you know how much worse it's going to get. So when it's bad at four or five months, your backache, you're like, ah. This is where I am. Yeah, this is where you are. And Theodore's really, really physical, really runs around. It always felt like... When I took him for his one-year check, the nurse, and she was really kind but she was like she went this is A &E waiting to happen she pointed at him and I said oh my husband went to A &E I think I think he broke his arm sort of six times in a year two till three so it's his genes yeah and um and then she said have you heard of a condition called ADHD and I was like let's have that chat down the line

43:28one I know they're just very very active children so it was very hard being pregnant with a toddler because you're incapacitated really, but it's still your job to keep them alive. And again, I was like, how can this work? I don't think that difference of being pregnant when you don't have any children to look after and then being pregnant with children, not being able to have naps when you want to, not being able to just sit down. Or even like a nice bath for a little while. You're just cleaning up after them. You're bending down. Your emotions are all over the place. And now it's a toddler that you've got to control your emotions around.

44:00They're not going to unsave you while you're in floods of tears. Yeah, I remember him sort of slapping me once, me just crying and him being like, oh, God. Set yourself up, woman. You're supposed to be the safe thing. Yeah, it's really hard, isn't it? How did you feel heading towards Albie's arrival? Really, really, really lucky. Yeah, really, really lucky. I think that's how we feel the majority of the time. You're just tired. Yeah, we're so tired, but we are so lucky. Yeah. We are so lucky. And again, it was a healthy pregnancy, as in the baby was very, very, just massive. And that's all you ever want to hear is that they're big and everything's in the right place.

44:43I found the scanning quite, I felt like I was being really intrusive. And they're like, and there's his kidneys. There's all his spine bones. And then she's like, here's his cerebellum. And I was like, should we be looking at someone else's brain? It's creepy, isn't it? I've seen every single little bit of my children. Yeah. Yeah. And how is it now having two boys in the house? How is it now? Well, they're fighting, which I wasn't expecting to be so early. The violence. The violence and everything you think is going to be nice. Shall we get some cake out of the freezer? World War III. Oh, I've got a balloon and a bubble machine that plays a tune.

45:18Oh, now we're smashing it. Smashing it up. I tried to write something once and I couldn't make it funny, but about a toddler's psychology. So the toddler, the amazing thing about spending time with a toddler is the wonder they see in the world. So the first time you blow bubbles for them and their eyes as they take in that it came from you and you did it and they're in the air and the massiveness of their smile. And the second thing is, how can I break it? And so then the second thing is, how can I break it? And then the third thing is, I want more of the thing I broke. It's so true. It's so frustrating.

45:53And there's no point reasoning with them. I think Steen really tries to reason with Theodore. And I've watched too many Instagram videos of people being like, there's no point, just distract, just distract, move on. You can't have a biscuit because you haven't had your dinner. It's like, just distract him, just distract him. Dr. Martha says, don't bother, don't bother. He's too. I can't listen to Dr. Martha. Keep talking to him like he's 13. He doesn't understand. He doesn't understand that the iPad has run out of battery. Just distract him and take him in the garden. It's admirable though, isn't it?

46:22And you're learning it on the job. And I think it's amazing that, you know, there's places on Instagram that you can go to for those voices of reason. But it's also really hard to implement those bits of knowledge in the moment. Yes. Emotional regulation is probably the most important thing I've ever learned about but yet cannot do. Yeah. Or then what you have is an inner monologue. But it probably does at least make you try harder to do it. And occasionally, last night, bedtime was really hard, actually, because of the boiler breaking in the bath. And they pick up on your stress. And it was just chaos.

46:52And the baby wouldn't go down. And I said to my husband when I got back, because he was out, I wanted to text him. Because that's the other thing, sort of passive aggressive. It's like them being out and you're just telling them what an absolute shit show is. Just so that they come off stage and get a text, just like, oh, that's my evening. And I didn't. I was so calm with the baby. I just thought, just come out of the bedroom for 20 minutes, let me pop her around, go back in. Didn't even matter anything under my breath. And I was so proud of myself. I was like, no, allow yourself a win. And I think that's it, the knowing the better way to be.

47:24is that you hate yourself so much. I hate myself so much when I lose my temper. Also knowing that sometimes there are going to be moments where you lose your temper. Of course, yeah. But there are going to be moments where it's like last night. Yeah, and you can. Yeah. And not allowing the times where it doesn't go according to plans kind of build up in your head. Yeah. It feels like such a bigger failure. Like if you said, you know, Sarah, you've had a bad gig. I do have a bad gig. And there's two kinds of bad gig. There's one where it's my fault and there's one where it's not my fault. so my fault, you know, I haven't prepped enough or I said the wrong thing and there's other things where it's, you know, there's variables I can't control but with either of those things I can put them in the right filing cabinet in my brain which is learn from it, do better next time comedy's not that important in the scale of the world people didn't have as nice time as maybe they'd hoped but with parenting I can't be flippant about it it's like Theodore said, you know, mum be shouting and it was because I was trying to make we're having something built in that, we're having a bathroom built and I couldn't sort out the parking on the app for the guy through my phone and he's like, mummy's shouting.

48:26And that feels like so cataclysmic rather than you can apologise and you're a human being and he'll have his own bad temper one day, which is what my friend Carrie always says to me. It's like, you know, they will be flawed. So as long as you acknowledge your flaws and sorry, sorry, I scared you. But feeling that I scared a two-year-old because I can't control my temper with an app is so horrible. And I was saying to him, but I wasn't angry with you. I'm angry with the parking. Look, you've displayed the emotion that, you know. So I think especially things like anger, we're all so scared of anger.

48:54We see it as a bad emotion. Because it is scary. And also we hated our own parents shouting. I hated my parents shouting. Absolutely. It's like a good change. You go on tour next year. I do. Come see Angry Lady. Angry Lady on tour. Who knows what better people get. Yeah, venting. Touring, as I said, I love stand-up comedy as a job. And it actually is an amazing job around being a parent. Yeah. Because it's flexible and most of the time, well, no one can make you do it. You put it in when you want to. When I gig near London, I can do bath time and leave or bedtime and leave. So I'm with my kids all the time.

49:31And then even if I'm far away now, I'll come straight home. I don't stay in a hotel, which is what I maybe used to do. Well, I guess it's not like you're doing a run of gigs either. I space them out really nicely so I'm there again in the morning. And it's a perfect job. I actually think the sort of the breakdown, and I not mean like having a breakdown, but being broken down by sleep deprivation and having children has also allowed my brain to think about a lot of things quite deeply and who I am. And I think it's made me better at my job. I'm really lucky with my job and that then fitting it around family life.

50:06Yeah. It feels like a double win. Have you ever tried to take the kids along with you? Yeah. When I announced my tour last year, or two years ago, which is when Theodore was a few months old and I was about to start IVF again, Catherine Ryan wrote underneath my tour announcement, don't do it. She'd had her youngest and they were all on tour together as a family in hotel rooms. And it all sounds like a very good idea because that sounds like living your dream. and the reality is at the best it is, the very best is after the kid's asleep, you and your partner have a mug of wine in the toilet in a hotel room and that's the best, even though technically you're like, look at us sitting on the floor.

50:49And that's the best it goes and the worst is, yeah, car journeys and you're thinking, why have I done this to my children? Because they just want to be around their stuff and the place where they definitely can sleep, not missed naps and traffic jams. When a child is over it, wherever they are and there's nothing you can do, it's like, no, we still, we had a couple of very short plane rides with Theodore I went to Dublin and stuff but if the plane is delayed by an hour and you've been sitting on it and you know they have that thing where they're strapped to you that's the bit where you go I'm so sorry I've done this to you and it's that isn't it it's realising who are you doing that for are you taking them on tour with you for them or are you taking them on tour with you to alleviate whatever guilt that that comes with and that pressure I feel it when I'm on tour and actually now when I tour if there's a half term because my kids are all at school, they'll all come to wherever I am during that half term.

51:39We'll have a lovely time. I'll try and juggle the, you know, being everything I can for them in the day and then going off and doing a show. How long do you have in between? That's the thing I find really hard is if, how do you switch into performance mode? I'll leave the theatre earlier than I normally would, basically, just to give myself that time to just decompress from whatever squabbles and arguments I've had. Because it does take a while, doesn't it, to unwinding. We did the Edinburgh Festival together, and that was great. because we were in one place for a month. So we had a house. And then also it's all amazing parks and lots of lovely stuff.

52:11So that felt like the kids weren't losing out. We took them to Edinburgh. The kids' favourite holiday, Edinburgh. It's brilliant Edinburgh for children, isn't it? And it's child-friendly. All the museums had stuff. And there's a really good Peppa Pig soft play. My son was obsessed with but also overwhelmed by it. So he wouldn't... He dreamt of it and then it was too much when we got there. Yeah. and I thought that's a lot like really wanting to have children for years and years it's a bit like that because you want it and want it and want it and then when it's happening it's like this is too much to take in and it's actually happening now I can't take it it's too much it's too much yeah I listened to your book Animal and I've got to say you obviously you wrote that before having kids yes yeah there's so much knowledge and information in that and I love it and obviously it's delivered by you so it's that you've got an amazing I listened to it and it was an amazing listen.

53:03But you then came into pregnancy with so much knowledge. Yes, well, I think that's why I had a C-section. Really? Yeah. Oh, that thing that you say about the World Health Organization saying that two million women are walking around with tears that haven't been fixed. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I knew a little bit too much. And also the whole, it's that thing about the information about childbirth, because in some ways, health professionals tried to be dismissive of some of the realities of vaginal birth because they don't yeah because they don't want people to be stressed because stress is so bad for childbirth yeah yeah so it's that thing of like how do you have some of the information but not be scared yeah and I think probably if I went back and wrote that book I would write it very differently really I think so because I think I was always flippant at the time I remember putting in a phrase like that vaginal birth was like trying to drive a Range Rover off a bus something like that and I think now I'd be more just be aware of women who might be pregnant reading it or not have options because sometimes the NHS doesn't give people options lots of the time.

54:04But you can't write something and cater for everyone. No, no you can't and life involves knowing stuff and looking back and going well before I knew this I didn't know it. I always think that about autobiography is that kind of when you say something, when you decide to share has a massive impact on what you share and how you tell it. Yes. Because if you tell someone something in the moment it's very different to 40 years on when you're looking back. What happens with comedy with jokes is that you make these jokes that seem completely fine in 1997, 2002, 2014. Time changes and now if there's a permanent record, which they never used to be, stand-up would have been just a live medium.

54:39And now it's that thing, oh God. You can't judge me now on a joke from then. I was then then. And we were all then laughing at that. Absolutely. Sarah, if you could write a letter on motherhood, who would it be to and what would you say? If I was going to do it, I think I would write a letter to my children. Actually, I'm doing this. I have photograph books and I'm trying to write about... My son ate an onion the other day because he was so stubborn. And it's just so great to take some pictures and write it up so that he will get to meet himself as a child because I know I don't remember me as a child.

55:13It was in the fruit bowl. So he's not allowed to climb up on the surface, so of course that's what he does all day. and his dad hates it when he bites all of the fruit one by one so that's what he does and so we have lots of apples with one bite taken out of them so he doesn't want any more and there was an onion in there and when he started to bite it he was told not to and so he thought it was like the apple thing and then it was like no, no, no, you won't like it and the more we said no the more he's like I'm going to eat this entire onion How much did he eat? He ate quite a size amount of onion yeah he's so stubborn and so two things I got It made us a key ring for my husband to remind him, like, that's the tenacity that he has in him.

55:53And also, so as I try to write up things for my sons, the thing is I don't have a thing of, like, oh, you made me a mum. Yeah. Or any of that. It's just, like, you were so wanted. Like, whatever else we do, and I'm not asking you to be grateful for it because, you know, you don't owe us anything. But, oh, my God, never doubt for a second.

56:15Yeah. Yeah. it's such a weird thing because none of it is schmaltzy or romantic but I do think a lot of the time I go I'm very present I don't like I don't like cleaning up all the time wiping the same surface you've just wiped but I go I'm very here whereas that's something before I had children I used to think quite a lot like am I even taking this in like life's just happening to me and with work I was always like just get through today just like today's so busy just get through today whereas now I'm more like is it only 10am? Sarah, we end the podcast with you completing three sentences. The first one is being a mum means?

56:53Doing more washing in the last two years than in my previous 40 years. More loads of washing, maybe this week, than the previous 40 years. I cannot believe how many loads of washing I now have to do. Wait till they start school. Don't they get a uniform? Don't they wear the same thing every day? No, but then you've got to wash it every day. Every day. Oh, God. Since having children, I. I just want to say more things about doing all the washing. So what was the first one? Being a mum means. Being a mum means. Okay, I've done it the wrong way around. Since becoming a mum, all I've done is wash. Okay.

57:30There's washing. Being a mum. Being a mum means, I think, reliving your own childhood inside out. Seeing it all again, perspective-wise. Understanding some things really compassionately. Being furious about things you didn't know. Yeah. Yeah. and I'm happy when? I'm happy when... I'm happy a lot, actually, after all my moaning. I'm happy a lot because the stuff that makes me happy is very, very basic. My son has stopped hitting the dog and they've started cuddling. Oh, my God. He sometimes says, yeah, cool, when you give him a snack. And me and Stine just burst into tears. The other day I said to him, this one's got berries in it.

58:09He was like, oh, cool. I'm like, oh, my God, that's cute. Thanks, Mum. The sentence, thanks, Mum. Thanks, Mum. And the baby's so happy. He just grins. He just laughs. And he snorts like a pig whenever he sees Peppa Pig. And if he sees a candle, he goes... Because they're obsessed with happy birthday. We sing happy birthday several times a day, always to Theodoxy and Sis. And so I'll light a lovely sort of Joe Malone in the corner of the room and they'll hear his... ..from the baby who wants to blow it out. Basically, it's so much joy in such mundane things. while wiping wiping and cleaning and complaining yeah sarah thank you so much thank you