Sophie Ellis-Bextor: five c-sections, Murder on the Dance Floor, and the power of Perimenopop

0:00Just press record. An hour's gone by and it's really good to catch up. I guess we should actually start recording now. Let's make it formal. Okay, I'll do an introduction. Go on then.

0:15Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's guest is a singer-songwriter who has been in the game for decades, which makes you sound really old because you just started really young. It's fine. She is a podcast host. I love her podcast, Spinning Plates. She's an author. She is the mother of five boys and the queen of the dance floor. Wow. Sophia Spexter. That's cool. I like that. Thank you. You are the queen of the disco. I'm happy to. Well, if that crown's going, I'll take it. I'll wrestle it off on the summer. Whoever really holds the crown. I mean, I love the fact that your podcast is Spinning Plates.

0:55And to the outsider, you are someone who has spun those plates really, really well. and it doesn't seem like you, you just do a really good juggle. But actually the podcast is about the fact that we are spinning so many plates and no one has the answers. Yeah, and about actually where I've really struggled with that. And I don't know if it's the same for you with your podcast, but I started it not really knowing exactly what I was going to get out of it. And then as it unfolded, I realised how much I needed to have those conversations and still needed permission for the guilt that I feel with work.

1:29Or just speaking to people with their wisdom and their experience and their take on things just to give me a bit of a roadmap, actually, as it turned out for my 40s. That's what it sort of ended up unfolding. But I don't think I realised that at the beginning. It kind of just sort of happened slowly and it's been great. I love things like that, though, when you don't quite know it yet and it just starts seeping in. You come out of it and you think, I've learned so much from just that chat. You're like, oh, that's why I did that then. That's where that impetus came from. because you need momentum, don't you, to want to have the conversations and sit in with all those feelings.

2:03So I think, yeah, sometimes they reveal themselves more than just, oh, it would be nice to have it. You get something a bit more enriching, I think. Yeah. And I love the fact that you are someone who has completely embraced her 40s and even with the new album. I know. Paramount Pop. I love just the name. When I saw that, I was just like, well done, you've just won. I have to say I can't say it with a straight face at all. but yeah it's been really and actually a little bit again I knew with the album I wanted to have my age in there somewhere and the more I thought about that the more relevant it became but then once I'd actually named the record it gave me full permission to to be exactly where I'm at in life and all that comes with it in a more 360 way than maybe you sometimes do with creative projects because they can feel like there's the you know your creative side and that extrovert nature and that flamboyance and then the other side of the coin that's home and all the things that matter to you on that side but I think with this time I've really like collided all the worlds in one place which is what I think getting older should hopefully be about is embracing all aspects of yourself and not not really feeling you need to diminish things for the sake of other people's discomfort yeah I think certainly in pop music being in your 40s and all that goes with it is never seen as particularly sexy or attractive to to invite it to the dance floor as well you know even sometimes it's incredibly well-meaning but people might say oh I remember seeing you I won't tell you how long ago it was you know and I'll say why not like I'm really happy that these decades have accumulated well it's a massive it's a massive achievement it's also experience you know it's nice to look back and go oh wow I've actually I've actually done quite a lot and there's quite strong foundations there or I've made some great friends or I've learned these things I think there's a lot to be celebrated within that but I think sometimes we want to kind of talk about I don't know it's all about being youthful or they're not being as long gone by because it's not seen as something to to toast yeah and we're lucky aren't we with our work that we can pour that every experience into something creative and kind of market in the land a little bit.

4:15But I think it just became, yeah, really important to me. And I think ultimately it's quite selfish because I think it meant that I could walk on stage thinking, I know I don't, you know, I'm literally singing, I don't know, Murder on a Dancehall with the video I did when I'm 21, like over my shoulder. I'm like, yeah, well, that was me then. And here's me now and deal with it. Including me probably. You know, you had that, Kate Bush had her moment as well. and it's that thing of those songs, you and Kate, kind of having this amazing moments in pop, having their resurgence. It's bonkers. It's amazing.

4:50It's really incredible. It's like I do feel very lucky that I've had that experience because it was really extraordinary. And luckily a song that I'm on such good terms with. It would have been awful if it was something you didn't like. It would have been unrelated. Yeah, I don't know what that would have been. Can you imagine? Oh, God. But Merger and I have always been friends. You know, it's been there for me since I first released it. I've always sung it. So it's nothing new to sing it. But it does make me appreciate how much pop music likes people playing with it. It's a very energetic genre.

5:22And it comes at you with that, you know, hello, notice me, play with me, interact with me. So pop music needs that. And every time anyone does in any way, it puts more lifeblood and more story into those songs. They don't stay crystallized in a moment. they evolve yeah and the shift and i think that's incredible yeah you know if you're in a boardroom and there's a big viral hit with murder then there's the the temptation from the sort of brain part of you know well-intentioned labels which have you know corporate basis they'd be thinking right youth culture let's get back on that like how do we and i'm like absolutely not like look at me i have a 21 year old like come on i was thinking no let's let's think about my peers Let's think about other artists that I've loved and people coming up behind me and all of it.

6:11Like, no, let's sit exactly where I'm at. Yeah. And only one person tried to say, are you sure this is a good idea? Yeah. But also it's good to have someone kind of question things just so everyone kind of goes, no, actually we do. Do you know what I mean? Completely. And I want people to feel good about it. I don't want people to feel embarrassed. But at the same time, that did kind of steal me a little more. I did the first people I asked about the idea of calling it perimenopop was my eldest boy and my mum and obviously Richard. And they all were like unanimous, like go for it. And I think if it had made any of them kind of go, I then I probably would have had more pause for thought.

6:46Did Sonny understand the reference point? He did, actually. Yeah. I think he I think him and his generation might be vastly overestimating what's going on in terms of chat. but they seem to know more about these aspects of life than I did at that age about my I had no idea I don't think I'd ever heard the word perimenopause when I was 21 and menopause me was like what's that like what happens at the end and I think I remember having a conversation with my mum but I think it was probably not until I would actually probably say my 30s I thought oh hang on a minute so there's a bit where this all winds down and then what I don't think I'd really thought about it but luckily for for us there's been quite a lot of women that have done quite a lot of banging on saucepans about it which is great because it's meant I feel like much more confident about what lies ahead even though most of it doesn't sound great let's go back and talk about your childhood okay what was it like oh well nice and broad for you so yeah thank you are we talking about nought to 18 yes so it's kind of in different sections really my parents separated when I was four and I know lots of people go through it but I feel like that introduced a slightly more serious tone to childhood.

7:54Do you remember a time of them being together at all? Ish. Snapshots, really. And it wasn't the smoothest. I think they did their absolute best. But as my mother would say, you can't have a passionate marriage and then not have a passionate divorce. It's always got a way of framing these things. But, you know, I always felt loved. I was never one of those people who thought, is it my fault? So they did do the right thing there. It didn't occur to me, actually. I felt blissfully like, well, obviously, clearly I'm Switzerland here. but I think that's why when my mum and my stepdad got together and my dad and my stepmom they've both had very long happy marriages Well you've said that from one unhappy marriage came two very happy marriages Yeah and I think particularly I did see my dad every other weekend but I think particularly having the grounding of my lovely stepdad John and then the babies that came along so my brother Jack who was born when I was eight and then my sister Martha when I was 11 that for me changed everything because I was just so obsessed with Jack particularly like I was obsessed with having a baby brother I just adored him and I think it just felt like something really wholesome and solid to come home to I think that's probably sealed the deal with having a lot of babies when I was older because it was like this idea of this new person comes along and then things are just just great like they're just a happy thing aren't they baby new baby great I love the fact that that kind of informed your decision later on I think it must have done because I would look after Jack a lot and I'd have him on my hip a lot and I can still remember the sort of visceral feeling of this, you know, chubby baby and walking around with him and giving him his bottle and putting him to bed and stroking his little head till he'd fall asleep.

9:29I mean, poor Jack, he's now like 37 and he drums in my band actually. So don't worry, this is very much in the past on the tour bus. But even that, I love that you've got Jack and Rich on the tour bus, you know, that family affair. It's really cute, isn't it? It's really gorgeous. It does make all the difference. I literally don't know what everything would look like without having them with me. And there were moments just on this European tour when I would turn around and see Jack drumming away and Richard playing bass and obviously the rhythm section as well. They interact a lot. And I was like, God, I really have to drink this in because that is really special.

10:08So I did make a point of little snapshots in my head because I think, again, when you're in the doing, you can think like, oh yeah, well, there'll be another gig in a couple of weeks. But actually, it's special. I really like it. And it's fun and it's very grounding for me. So whilst I have lots of unexpected elements with what I do, there's very much like a lot of constants in my actual kind of home life, which have, for me, been the touchstone and I think helped my sanity. Absolutely, absolutely. Was there a point where you kind of looked ahead and kind of go, at this age, I'm going to be a mum?

10:45Because your mum and your nan were both quite young, weren't they? Yeah, so my mum had me at 23 and her mum had her at 23. So I think I had this in my head. Oh, 23. And I remember being a little bit annoyed with myself when 23 had come and gone and I hadn't had a baby because I was like, that was what I was supposed to do. But I was very much not with the right person. So thank goodness that didn't occur. But I think I just always thought I'd be a mum, but I wasn't really expecting to become a mum when I did because it wasn't a planned baby. Well, let's talk about you being rich because I love this because you worked together for years before you became a couple.

11:18It was about a year and a half that he'd been in my band. And when we met, we were both in quite long-term relationships. And I always liked a company, but honestly was not thinking anything about anything. And then we'd been on tour, and I just realised that I wanted to speak to him about things. And if I had something to share, I wanted to have his take on it. And it was all quite innocent, but I was sort of aware of like a shift. you know we both bought it sounds really silly by the way we both bought like roller skates on one of the tour dates and then we were roller skating around the empty venues and looking back everybody else must have been like what are those two doing you know like that kind of like when you know you're kind of acting like a bit like a teenager yeah so I remember thinking I have no idea what's going to happen with Richard but I this definitely means that where I'm at is not right and so I got myself out of a relationship that was really not great and then once we were both single we were like right we're gonna go on some dates and we're gonna keep it really quiet and under the radar so I'm laughing to myself because I already know what happens next because I was like you know we don't want anybody being like oh my god you guys are dating like we didn't want anyone kind of judging I guess and then after six weeks I realized I was pregnant and I was like okay gonna have to tell some people now talk to me about doing the test how did you it's so embarrassing have you seen that film knocked up yes that's basically what was going on so i was the one you know i'm katherine heig like job at mtv or whatever she's doing everything's going quite well thanks and then richard was at the time not living with me he'd just come out of one shared house with his mates was moving into another shared house the shared house he'd moved into that i first went to visit was actually quite a lot nicer i was with dan from the feeling it was quite a lovely house it was his mum's house they must have thought i was insane because i'd gone around there I was about four or five months pregnant and I was into I'd already started like nesting right so Richard had gone off to do something with his friends and I literally cleaned their entire kitchen like drawers cupboards I'm just making my cheeks go red just remembering it because I went it was like a proper deep clean they came back and they're like that pop star you're dating has just cleaned our kitchen absolutely mad the house before that I mean this is the real knockdown I literally went in there and they got to the point where each of the people in the house had their own loo paper that they would take I know can you imagine I'm like this is my future husband my child I had to meet his parents pregnant I mean it was so embarrassing um the test so Richard had come over to visit I was in a rented flat that I'd moved into with my best friend we were like yay we're going to be crazy girls in this part she started working at She did a course at the poor school, so she had a job by day, doing an acting degree by night, and never saw her.

14:06I get pregnant. I mean, honestly, just no partying at all. Richard came round. I'd already done a test by then, but it must have been quite early, and I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm pregnant. And then Richard came over, and I was like, I'm going to do a test. Dan phoned up with a problem with his computer, which nothing changes. If Dan has a technical problem, he will still phone Richard now. And Richard was on the phone to him, and I got the test, and I showed him, and I remember Richard just going, yep, so try that. and he looked at it and he just went... And he's like, yeah. Thumbs up. And then we went and we sort of kept interspersing between sort of like long stares and giggling.

14:40How did that feel? We found it quite funny. Really? Well, it was like sort of ludicrous. But I think at the back of my mind, we'd already kind of... I don't want to sound overly twee about it because there were lots of uncertainties, but I just never really doubted Richard, if I'm honest. And even though I was... I mean, I'd literally just released my first single from my second album. And in those days, even if it was like 2003, there was no future for that record once the label realised I was pregnant. I did two songs and then it was like, I'm pregnant. It was like, OK, we're going to stop the campaign now.

15:13So there are loads of things where I was thinking, OK, hold on to your hats. This is going to be quite unusual. What's interesting then is it's not about you and Rich that you're even worried about in that setting. It's the outside world. that is kind of like letting people know what the, not ramifications, but the knock-on effects of being pregnant will be. Very much so. And, you know, I'd literally just moved into a rented flat and then I was like, okay, this isn't right, you know, this isn't where I want to be settled. I was extricating myself from a very unpleasant breakup, which was really stressful.

15:49But, yeah, in amongst it all, I still have quite a rosy view of it, even though I know it was very stressful. Yeah. And, you know, one of the first persons I spoke to about it was, of course, my mum. In fact, probably the first person. And she said it might not be the right time and it might not be the right man, but it's the right baby. And I think that honestly allowed Richard and I permission to also just continue as we were to keep dating. I mean, we hadn't even said, like, I love you or anything. But it was just so we were doing dates and we were going away. and it just gave us room to not feel like we had to look like something, you know, a framed version of your first child.

16:25We could still be two people that were newly dating and still getting to know each other in a romantic way. And I think that was something to really hold on to. Had you planned to move in together before Sonny arrived? No, I mean, it was really crazy. I mean, we'd been going out for six weeks when we had this test And so we were sort of like, you know, I don't know, third date, fourth date. And then it was like, you should probably move in. And he moved in two weeks before Sonny was born, as it turned out, because I wasn't very well. And I had him two months early. So when we had Sonny, we'd been going out for eight months.

16:59It was kind of silly. But enough support, you know, enough support. And enough people around us who were happy for us. So it wasn't kind of against the odds. It was more just a bit like, okay, right, this is happening. And my girlfriend group as well, no one else had had any babies, so that was quite a novelty as well. Lots of hands on deck. Yeah, and lots of kind of, oh, wow, okay, what happens with that? So, I mean, that was nice for Sonny. He was like the communal baby. My girlfriends and Richard's friends really got to know him as a little person because it wasn't like a sea of everybody else having babies.

17:36He was the baby. And that was actually very sweet, and he's got good relationships with them now as a result, I think. But one thing with not having any friends who have gone through it is you're pregnant and you don't know what's normal and you don't have anyone to talk about things that you might be feeling. And the worst part of that was when I'd had him because even though I was happy to be his mum, it was quite intense having the medical aspect of his birth because he was in hospital for nearly six weeks and then he came home and then he got meningitis and bronchiolitis. He seemed to get ill quite a lot.

18:07Well, let's go back a little bit because during pregnancy, you had preeclampsia. Yeah, that's really a very uncool one. You get really puffy headaches, just feel lousy. And I just thought that was me being pregnant at first because I was very low risk. I was 24, no family history of anything. So I'd been having a midwife-led pregnancy where you don't really see someone that often. And I went in for quite a routine checkup and they checked my blood pressure and they said, that's pretty high. and that was on a Friday night and I only remember that because then I went home over the weekend and they'd said try these pills and on Monday you don't need an appointment just pop in see us and we'll just check if they're working and on the Sunday night I'd been feeling so crummy and I hadn't wanted to see anyone and I just knew I wasn't like feeling like I was supposed to be feeling and I had one of those big pregnancy books and it had this bit about preeclampsia and I just remember thinking that's me I just know that's me everything tallied so the next day we'd driven to the hospital I'd run in Richard couldn't find parking space so I was like just wait outside and then I said phoned him I said they're saying I can't go home I have to go to hospital right now the baby's going to be here in a couple of days and I think I was quite in shock if I'm honest I didn't really understand quite a lot of process yeah I think you know you just got all the things you're planning I mean I'd literally not done any I didn't do any what do you call it the groups the NCT I hadn't done anything like that I didn't have a Moses basket i didn't have any nappies i didn't have a baby grow i'd superstitiously not really bought anything and i just remember thinking i haven't he hasn't even got well not he the baby hasn't even got socks that i don't know i haven't got anything and um we got transferred to uh chelsea in westminster because it has a brilliant neonatal and luckily they had a bed because if it hadn't been there would have been bristol that would have been very different yeah and i remember being taken around the neonatal and seeing these tiny babies and thinking i don't really know why they're showing me this because this isn't going to be happening.

20:04It didn't compute. No, no. So, yeah, they kept me monitored. And by the end of the week, my liver was hurting. I had pains all up my back, all on my arm. And that was actually a sign that it was starting to pack up a little bit. And, yeah, they delivered him by emergency C-section. Can you remember what it was like going down to theatre that day and knowing that you were? I think I was. I'd never really had any. I've been very fortunate. I haven't really been a patient very often. and so I was quite scared I think of the operation but excited to meet my baby but um I didn't feel very well and I did say to Richard can you please just stay with me and I was worried about having a panic attack and after the baby was delivered after Sonny had come out and he cried I remember thinking oh he cried I don't for some reason I thought they wouldn't cry at that age I don't know I didn't really have much of a bearing Richard stood up and went to have a look at Sonny and I just started to absolutely go like, and this, I don't know, it's called an anesthesiologist?

21:04Anesthetist? Yeah. Anyway, he got a bit of a glint in his eye and was like, try some of this. And I was like, really tripping. I mean, Lord knows what he put in my veins, but I was, I just remember being very floaty. Yeah. For hours after it, it was a little bit heavy-handed, if I'm honest. I think I could have coped with maybe more just like, should we try some deep breathing first? You went straight for. But you'd had panic attacks for a while before that. I hadn't had them for a while. Really? Yeah, not since my early 20s. But I think I was just feeling like... Have you had any C-sections? No.

21:37As someone who's had five now, you're numb from here down, but you can't move your legs. And just for me, the sensation of not being able to move freaked me out. I just felt a bit stuck. But I got much better at it. The last couple, I feel like I recovered much quicker, which I would say to reassure anyone, because I think they can feel quite daunting. But I think the hardest one to recover from was the first. Because you don't know what you're facing. Don't know what you're facing. I was maybe a little bit more unwell. And I think also because everything is coming in at once, you can't differentiate any of the hormonal changes or any of your...

22:08Everything is new. And I think it's just quite overwhelming. Whereas when I had had a baby before, you could say, oh, okay, I know to expect, you know, the baby blues or the emotion or whatever. I could sort of see it a bit more clearly. But what was the aspect of my operation and what was new mum? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Can you remember meeting Sunny for the first time? I do because, so I had him, he was delivered, I'd seen him and he was all right. But then because he was only 32 weeks, he was whisked off to the neonatal so they could be helped with his breathing and all the things they need help with.

22:40And I had to wait in my room until I was able to get into a wheelchair to be taken. So it was a few hours and I got wheeled in and I saw him in the incubator. and this is going to sound really barking but I just remember like feeling such a rush of love looking at him and thinking I could have this is so revealing I could have 12 babies and it would still I would never feel like I'd had too much of this feeling but I was very immediately like just obsessed with him I mean it's a crazy thing I'm very fortunate I do know it doesn't happen like that for everybody but I was just even in amongst all the wires and the beeps and the machines and people being unsure if they should say congratulations or not yeah I knew he was everything that was just the baby he was supposed to be and it's an overwhelming feeling as well I do this sounds also like um I had a very clear feeling of that is that person and he just happens to be a baby when I meet him I felt that very overwhelmingly yeah I felt like I my job now is to understand who this who he is and learn everything about him and support him as best I can and he just happens to be this size now but he will show me everything in time it was yeah really clear it was you know sometimes I do get those thoughts quite like numbskulls with their little placards it was like that that thought was very overwhelming yeah it must have been a very um scary time to for him to be in Nika as well and I think we have an idea of what early motherhood is going to look like we don't think of our little babies being in an incubator with wires no and i think having a baby that's immediately a patient is is a different vibe for sure and in terms of where things were at then with information most of it was through pregnancy books and when things don't go to textbook you tend to fall into a tiny little sub paragraph somewhere that's you know if this is happening to you you might expect that and there's no more information because everything was about the typical um and i think yeah it's definitely challenging I would say I was very lucky that I had a very positive experience of my sister Martha being born 10 weeks early right so that was when I was 11 so I'd seen happy smiley baby come out of all of that yeah and so aspects of that were quite familiar and yeah I think I think it was easier in a lot of ways with Sonny because I'd sort of I just was quite positive and every everything seemed to be going in the right direction with his um in terms of you know his monitoring everything it was i would say a lot harder with kit well because you had pre-eclampsia again with kit i did but i had him a week earlier but also he was a lot smaller so sunny weighed three pounds eight kit weighed two pounds six yeah and he was only a week earlier which is a indication of how he wasn't thriving he should have been bigger basically so he was very very small and poor kit he had it's very common to get some get collapsed lungs he had one collapsed lung then the other one collapsed then he had to be on a full respirator he had sepsis we couldn't hold him for a week I couldn't feed him like well I wasn't physically feeding him but they couldn't give him any milk and that one I thought we've I think Richard and I both thought maybe we've had our we've had our good fortune and now we're not going to be so fortunate and I think that was quite sad to go through but I say that I'm very lucky that I can sit here with a you know 16 year old boy who's like taller than me has little scars here from the operations and I'm we talk about it I'll be like that's that's incredible that's that's because you you know survived something but yeah I think I think there's a bit with uh hospitals and maybe I'm sounding gonna sound very naive here but as I said I haven't really I hadn't really had too much interaction yeah and I think I'd always thought of a hospital as sort of almost like a super place everything is kind of next level and then you realize there's loads of incredible stuff but they're people and there's choices to be made and the mundane mixed in amongst the treatments and that's when you think okay maybe we're a little bit more vulnerable here than I realize not everything has got a quick fix or an easy answer or even a predictable outcome sometimes you're just taking it hour by hour and for you and Rich knowing that you can only go in a certain amount of times a day you know to be with your your baby and having to leave leave them there that's really hard that really sucks I'm not gonna I mean I think the worst bit for me is probably the bit where you come home because when I'm discharged because you leave and you haven't got a baby and I remember you know we're still in our 20s and not so much with Sonny because I was not as I felt physically worse but with when I came home from Kit I remember we went actually maybe it was Sonny sorry it's hard to remember sometimes but I remember we went out to something I'm pretty sure it was after Kit because he was in hospital for longer so it was maybe let's say six or seven weeks and during that time one of his friends had a party and so we went because you don't spend all your time at hospital and I think we needed to see people.

27:31And someone said, when are you due? And I was like, well, no, he's born, but he's in hospital. And you're just in this sort of surreal version of events. People don't know how to react and they don't know what to say to you. And people would hesitate about even sending a card because what do you say? Do you say congratulations? The baby's not with you. And I think that's why when I had my third and he was really chubby, I was like, this is incredible. I loved having a baby made of circles I took home. I didn't have a night apart from him. He was just with me immediately. Wonderful. I hadn't had that before.

28:05I hadn't had a night, a first night with my baby where they're with me.

28:16The one thing that you did feel that you could give them was your milk. So you became obsessed with your pump. Yeah, yeah. And that's come along a lot as well with technology. Oh, yes, it has. Yeah. I know. No, you can have like, actually kind of like disco boobs. But then my first pump, oh my gosh, I took home a hospital grade, one side at a time. It was on wheels, this thing, weighty big thing that I took home on wheels. I remember there was a paparazzi outside the hospital and took a picture. And my mum, for some reason, was called and they said, Janet, can you tell us what this is? And she went, well, that's a breast pump.

28:52And I remember thinking, I really want people to necessarily identify what that is. obviously now like that later I was like I let you had a rucksack one with it at some point but um yeah I did I did have to do that because that was the one thing I could do and that carries with it various things there's a little freezer you drop your milk off and there's always a couple of mums in there are developing like delivering an impressive amount of milk and you're like I can't keep up with that you know miscellaneous little patient number but yeah I did I did think well this is the way I can show I'm a new mum and it's something I can give him and everybody was very encouraging at the hospital like your milk is really helping him and so I really persevered with that and yeah that became a thing I could do but it's it's quite full on you're doing it like every three to four hours on a pump 20 minutes one side 20 minutes the other even in the middle of the night and in my experience it was a lot easier with a newborn with who knew what to do and how to do it than a pump where you're constantly washing sterilizing well it's not going to evoke the same hormones within you is it to kind of release the milk in the first place no and you have to have a bit of a picture well they encourage you to have a picture of your baby and i had this picture of them like and it's supposed to they're supposed to stare at the picture and it releases the hormone to like allow the letdown and oh i mean i don't miss a lot of that it was just again it's that medicalized aspect of something that's normally not medicalized i suppose but you look bigger picture it's a very small price to pay for still allowing me to do something and you know that could involve me and made me feel like this is something that I can do that no one else is able to do and I don't yeah I'm glad I'm glad it gave me something to focus on yeah it made me feel like a new mum actually yeah it was a symbol of that I even did a video I mean with Kit I don't know how this is he shouldn't I shouldn't have really let go away with it but I even did a video a music video when Kit was 10 weeks old and one of my friends came there and her role was every three hours to stop filming so I could go and pump milk.

30:52Wow. I was in heels in a miniskirt. What was going on? And I think now I would not say yes to a video shoot 10 weeks after my second baby in Stilettos, breaking to go and pump every once in a while and then them stretching the image so that I don't look like I've just had a baby. Like, absolutely sod off with that. But that's just what happened. It's crazy. But that's what of that time. Definitely. And it's not even that long ago. My 16 years were going back there. But, you know, I think that's what's good about talking about things is it does, you do sort of like by sharing it, like, actually, now that I say that, that's kind of ridiculous.

31:28Yeah. Yeah. After Sonny came out of hospital, you weren't actually out of hospital for very long because then he got poorly. Yeah, so, I mean, it was quite, he used to, I know he used to get lung things anyway, because when they've, the lungs are one of the last things to develop in babies. So that's why when they're in neonatal, they're waiting for them to regulate their temperature, their breathing and their food. because those are all the last bits that get sorted out when the baby's incubating you know when you're still carrying and so I think when Sonny first got sick aspects of it like we're back in hospital but also it was incredibly shocking to me because I felt very out of control on that morning because I'd woken up and he was very very hot like insanely hot and and then I thought oh he's under the duvet and because I had him in my arms and then I I realised he wasn't even under the duvet at all.

32:23There was no duvet near him and his feet were like blocks of ice. So Richard had phoned, I guess like 911 at that time, and he'd said, they're saying, do you want an ambulance? And I was like, actually, I think yes. And I was getting Sonny's bits and bobs and I looked at him and I said, don't worry, we're going to get you somewhere and the doctors will make you better. And I just remember thinking, I actually don't know if that's true. I actually don't know if that's what I'm dealing with here. but credit to the incredible people at St Mary's which is where we were taken which in retrospect makes me think that possibly whoever was the first responder had understood a little bit about what we might be dealing with because it's actually I think the leading meningitis hospital in the UK so when we got there they immediately just knew what to do and by the time we got the diagnosis he was actually already better in himself but he did have to have a lumbar puncture and that kind of thing where I wasn't allowed to be in the room I could hear him through the walls that's quite tough but at least you'll never remember that no but yeah he was four months so a corrected age which is what they do in the premature of being about two months old so still very little but that's a lot to go on in you know as a new time as a new mum as a first time mum to have all of that going on as your first experience of motherhood it's massive yeah and parenthood for both of us at least I'd held babies I don't think Richard I don't think Richard actually held a baby when we had a baby.

33:47I think he'd maybe met a couple. But he didn't really know babies. It wasn't like my family where we've always been baby. I've now got three younger sisters and two. You said after Jack there's a baby every six years. Exactly, yeah. And we've kept it going because when Mickey turned six in January this year, my sister had her first baby this year. So it's cool. The baton is being passed. I like this. It's very neat. But, yeah, I don't think he really knew any kids. But add to that the fact that you are a year into your relationship, or less than that, you know. I know. It's a lot to go through as a couple.

34:21Definitely. And moving house. We just moved into a place that was our own. We got the keys on a Friday. Sunny came home on a Monday. I mean, everything was just very... It was kind of so absurd all the time, though. I think, in a weird way, it allowed us to deal with things better because it felt like, well, of course, there's another drama and another drama, and then it just becomes the tone. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't. I wonder if that's helped you lead into the chaos now. It's got to, hasn't it? Yeah. I definitely think problem solving and being calm and letting things unfold a little bit. Yeah.

34:52It's been good. And also finding the good people, the ones you think, okay, I will listen to you. Like the consultant I had for my first two pregnancies. I mean, I doubt she'd remember the names of who she delivered, but I would never forget her face or her name because she was such a rock in that. You know, you're in the choppy water, but you're clinging to that. And you're like, you seem really experienced and wise and calm. So I will listen to your voice. And I think knowing those people around you is always, I think that's probably one of the best things you can do for yourself. It doesn't matter if you don't know, but having some sage advice is really valuable, isn't it?

35:30Yeah, absolutely. What were your symptoms of preeclampsia? Some of them are a bit vague. I mean, there's things like I was getting swelling. so my face and my feet, I'd gone up a whole shoe size. And the people would sort of joke about that because they sort of joke about swelling ankles, but I knew it wasn't quite right. Headaches, I'd get a lot of tension headaches and just a general feeling of not feeling quite right and not wanting to see people and not wanting to do things, which sounds woolly, but it was actually in that book, that textbook that I'd read. So I knew that was something of that.

36:05And actually the previous weekend prior to me getting diagnosed, I'd gone to a friend's baby's christening and everybody would say, oh, you look great. You look great. And then her mother-in-law said, you don't look well. And I wanted to hug her. I was like, finally, someone is telling me what I know. And I think it's like I appreciate the good intentions, but I just knew it wasn't right. I just knew I wasn't looking great or feeling great. So then going into your next pregnancy, was there a relief when that didn't come or did it come? with ray my third i would have a scan every four weeks and i'm trying to remember because that continued with the subsequent babies as well but they basically monitor the valves in your placenta and how the blood flow is working because when they can see if that's that there's any issues with that then they can start to see that they've got markers that something might be going awry because preeclampsia is a result of your body essentially rejecting the placenta right i'm sure I'll be corrected in the comments about what that is but that's my understanding of it um it's basically your body is is not is trying to is is resisting what's happening the natural organ of the placenta and that's where the problem is and that's why kit was so tiny is because it wasn't actually nourishing him as it should have been right poor thing yeah isn't it but um with ray it just didn't happen so I had a scheduled c-section and I actually did explore natural birth because I'd always loved that idea.

37:33I mean, I know people will be like, you really didn't miss a great party. But I always had this vague idea. I'd be quite good at it. Who knows? I just thought I wanted to see what labour felt like. I just wanted to know and I wanted to have what they call active birth and wandering around and music. I was like, yeah, I think I can be like a cat, you know, like crawl underneath something somewhere. But yeah, I didn't get to experience any of it and I felt a bit cheated for a while, I think. Really? I think so because it's a bit like a punctuation mark. Everybody talks about it in all the books and it's all the conversations.

38:02What kind of birth do you want to have? What's your birth plan? How do you envisage it? So I think I thought I'd really like to see how that would feel. But then I had a meeting with a very lovely woman at the hospital who's, that's her whole area, is vaginal birth after C-section. And even after two, it can happen. But because I'd had my C-sections early, your uterus is not as high up. So the operation is a little bit more intense. Is everything a little bit thicker as well? Exactly. They're literally having to go through more stuff. So consequently, if I tried to have a natural birth, I might have hemorrhaged.

38:40And obviously, the best thing is to be a healthy mum for your new baby and your existing babies. So yeah, I quickly was like, okay, well, I'm not going to put my own ego into that then, obviously. So yeah, scheduled C-section for the next three. And luckily for me, I had only two consultants for all five babies. and they're brilliant, really good people. And a very personalised approach then as well. You know, you've not got that blanket, we don't do this. You know what I mean? It's kind of looking at you and what's going to work for you. Yeah, and I think the only time I had a bit of a wobble was my fifth, where I was 39 and one day I'd gone along to hospital and the woman, someone had stepped in for my consultant appointment and she basically looked at me and said, well, you know, your risks are like this for everything.

39:30Organ failure, hemorrhage, everything as a result of your previous births and your age. And I was a bit like, well, I seem to be in this situation now. And then she said, would you like to be sterilized at the same time as the C-section? And I was like, actually, no. So this isn't that long ago for... No, it's like six years ago. I kind of walked out a bit like, that was a mad chat. But you know, when you're in the... She had someone in there as well, someone that was learning. Oh, wow. So I felt like I had to model. I didn't want to let her know that she'd ruffled me. I was just a bit like, I probably made a joke, to be honest, which is my usual default.

40:07Yeah. I was a bit like, no, I think I'll just have the operation. And then I kind of walked out a bit like, that is mad. She said, yeah, we could make it so we could do that at the same time as you give birth if you want, because you've had quite a few. I was like. Oh, wow. I know I mean maybe she was just trying to be brisk to sort of show off to this student but I was I just didn't want her let her know that I thought that was quite a crazy thing to pop out of her mouth I didn't even know that that people even still talked like that no I mean I think in retrospect if she'd wanted she could have said look I appreciate this might be sensitive but if you want if there are options for simultaneously we can do something that will mean that you are then you know if you decide you don't want any more babies we can actually help that but to be sort of like quite sort of blunt was a bit like and I just wasn't actually expecting it you know you just trot along for like a routine well also I just thought that's a bit of a leap like it sounded almost a bit judgmental I felt like you've really had quite a lot she probably nipped this in the bud now and also you're risking everything and I was like well that's not what where's the other consultant that said nice things nice supportive things like I'm sure we can make this a healthy, happy experience for you.

41:21Can I have that person back, please? God. I mean, well done for not saying anything. I don't know what I would have gained. I think it would have just made it more dramatic. I just went away and thought, that was wild. I guess looking at it, if I give her a bit of... It probably was that she just thought, right, I'm being watched and I'm just going to switch through this. But also, what am I supposed to do? I'm already quite pregnant by then. All right. I guess I've got those risks. Let's go. After Ray's arrival and that being straightforward, did you feel like the subsequent pregnancies that you were a lot calmer as a result?

42:03Probably, yes. I think I did, actually. And I also felt bringing him home from hospital, it was the first time I really felt that sense of like, if this is our family, I feel like really complete as well. I felt very, very lucky to have had that experience and have this healthy full-term baby. Was your miscarriage before, Ray? After. It was before Jessie, the next one, yes. And so, yeah, I think I felt like, okay, you know, that's been lovely. And I kind of had to do a bit more talking Richard into the next couple of days. I mean, I wasn't worried. It's really easy to talk your way around it. I was like, don't worry, I'll look after the new one.

42:41You just have to look after the ones we already have. But that's quite a lot now, Sophie. Definitely. Well, I think he also started to worry about my health. Right. And looking back, I don't actually know why I was always so gung-ho because there was quite a lot that happened. And I do think for a lot of people, it would have been totally understandable to have had that first experience and decide that's kind of enough trauma. Or the second time, okay, I'm definitely done. I don't know what is wrong with me sometimes. I remember holding Ray in my arms. This is the third baby. And a consultant coming to check on me.

43:12and I said, so I've had three C-sections now. Does that mean I have to stop? And he was like, no. And I was like, cool.

43:23That is crazy, isn't it? Yeah. I don't really know. I'm just like, I'd just be like in the car and be like, well, there's still a seat there. We could put another one there. Or I think I could work out another way to do the bed so we could fit another one. Oh, yeah. Was there a point, though, where the youngest was, you know, approach that point where he's two and a half and you're like, we've missed the window we're definitely not having any more? I think with Mickey, because we'd had lockdown and all that stuff as well, I think I thought I've really taken on about as much as I can handle. I do feel when it comes to it, I sometimes can feel spread quite thin and I feel like I can still give enough to where I'm at but only just and that's me being realistic about my time but also about what they need and I'm very conscious that none of them are asked to be part of a big family so I don't want them ever to feel that they're clumped together or any way of missing out on things I've heard you say that you're a different mum to each of them I think I am, but they're different people and like everything the relationship I have with them is with an individual Richard did say when we had Mickey, he said this is our last one and now it's time to watch them grow up and I do actually think he's right I love that it's just a very different chapter isn't it It's a very different chapter not having the babies coming through anymore and just kind of going.

44:41It is, but we did it a lot. We had a lot of that. And now there's a new baby in our family. So, you know, I can see it from the peripheral and enjoy that. But also, you know, my sister, who's a new mum, I saw the other day going home and there was the buggy and there's the stuff. And I shut the door to say goodbye. I did feel a bit like maybe I don't miss it all that much. Maybe that was okay. and having the buggy in the hallway and all the stuff that goes with it. And it's nice now that Mickey's approaching his seventh birthday and, you know, he's a little guy and you hang out. And, like, last night we did a little build together and we're chatting about things.

45:17And I think that's all really lovely as well. I don't want any of them to feel stuck with any of that. Like, if I've ever got any of that little tug, that's totally my thing and they don't need to have any. None of that's on them. They can do their own thing. It's fine. what has been the the trickiest stage of having five well the first thing that's wrong to mind was lockdown because of course what am I thinking because I when lockdown happened so Mickey was 14 months eldest suddenly would have been 15 and so I had two in secondary two in prime one in primary one in nursery, maybe one just starting secondary.

46:01And I was like, I can't bloody do this. And there was all this stuff about homeschooling. And I was like, okay, half of mine can't use a computer. Two of them aren't really in school. I mean, how can you get anything done? It's hard enough getting conversation finished with a baby and a three-year-old, let alone, okay, let's get your textbooks out. So then when I found myself head of a school in lockdown, I was like, well, this doesn't work. Head of a school. Yeah, head of a school, terrible school. So I think that was probably the most stressful. And probably when I told my kids about the fifth one was also quite challenging because the younger three were quite straightforward about it.

46:41But I think for Sonny, who was then 14, I think he was quite worried about if there was enough of us to go around. Yeah. And I think that's really valid. And, you know, look, ultimately, you know, I suppose I've been quite selfish in that, really. I mean, I do think there's benefits for them in having lots of siblings, but there's definitely things that come along with it that are quite difficult. So I did think, you know, and you're going to a bit more sober, I think, when you've got older kids. It's not just about this cute chubby bubby. It's about all the years that follow and hoping that you can be as present as, you know, plugged in and engaged for all of that, for all of them.

47:18And I feel like that is something that you really focus on, though. the idea of you know how we said about being a different mum to each of them but giving them what they need at different times 100 it's so vital they've got to feel heard they've got to feel uh they're given agency it's so important i really i really really appreciate that in our family and i also want them to give that in their future relationships and their dynamics communicate good communication is so important but also i feel like in our house everything has to feel like a safe space for them to explore anything that makes them feel uncomfortable and then to support their brothers with it and then learn from that because they're going to see other people struggling with things they find easy or vice versa.

48:02And that'll all hopefully give them a better understanding and better compassion and empathy and tools, tools to then help their friends or help themselves if they're going through something similar. I think that's one of the things I hope I put quite a lot of emphasis on really.

48:24Raising children is obviously a massive, a massive privilege and massive honour. It's also a massive... There's a lot on you, I think, as a parent. And raising boys, I think at this time in particular, there is so much to think about because of toxic masculinity, because of these different voices in different places, the statistics out there about suicide rates in young men and things like that. It feels like such a massive thing to make sure that our children are out there armed with things that can help them, to know that they're not just on their own facing all these different things that the majority of the time don't mean anything.

49:00well I think a lot of the from my perspective a lot of the root of helping to shift the narrative into a positive space is about validation and listening to each other because it can be very casual and well intentioned but there can be a real dismissal of young boys and their feelings and their vulnerabilities and their emotions and so that's the thing I'm quite hot on really and I've never I don't want to sound too sort of trying to think how to articulate it I think when I had my first baby and as I said I had that feeling of like oh he's this whole person and just happens to be a baby now I've been very curious about what is supposed of him when people find out a few facts and I think that began when he was very little and it was just that he was a boy going to nursery rather than a girl going to nursery and it'd be oh okay well then it's these stickers or this side of the shopping centre or whatever it might be.

50:02And this has nothing to do with any of the topics that come up now about gender, although I think they're really healthy. This was just my own view in... And 21 years ago. Yeah, 2004, thinking, well, what if he doesn't want to have that T-shirt? What if he quite likes that palette of colours or that animal? And how neatly everything had been put into one side or another. And so I think I've sort of gently pushed back on those things. Not in a way to then flip any of it. Like, I just want them to make their own choices. And it was so reductive to me. Like, well, he's got so much going on in his head.

50:39How do I know that he prefers a lion than a unicorn? Like, that's ridiculous. Like, think about it. It's ridiculous. And I think that then goes into how young boys and girls can be treated differently when it comes to their emotional selves. and it's not the issue of mothers of sons to rectify this. It's all of us collectively. What do we want for our kids? Who are we hoping to create? What do we want to see in that generation? We want compassion. We want empathy. We want good listeners. We want kindness. We want boundaries. Okay, let's set them up. My kids, the majority of them are that older as well, like into this teenage and beyond.

51:16And then you've got the internet and parents are encouraged to think, it's the Wild West out there. It's the big bad wolf. so when my eldest got to like 15, 16 well maybe younger actually probably about 14 and things I could notice you know starting to develop I said to him right I'm going to come into your bedroom and like this is what I'm being told as a mum to be frightened about this is what they're telling me is happening but you're learning like tell me why I don't need to worry about this stuff like walk hand in hand if you go that's it I'm taking it all out you might have taken away the one person he was talking to about something that was bothering him and he might now think he can't talk to you I'm not all these things have a place but you just need to be like I think it works best when you give them room to like actually open up we're doing it all together you're not alone with any of it and if all of it goes wrong there's a roof over your head we will always be able to sit together I'll always talk to you about anything you know I've said since I've let's I love you no matter what and they're like one of them is like what about if one of us killed another one of us and I'm like okay that's a challenging dilemma but ultimately yes I still love you I might not want to speak to you about it too much in terms of spinning plates I feel like we have to bring it back to that over the years has there been things that you've done that have kind of worked better than others do you feel like you're getting to a point ever where the spinning of the plates is getting easier

52:41I don't know is the honest answer but that's right that's it right because life changes all the time and all we can ever do is kind of go okay it's these plates now let's try again oh that one yeah I think the thing I've got better at probably is um not spiraling with my thoughts and dealing better with the here and now of things because I think I think the worst things can come when you get that kind of like jangly feeling around the edges of like just being spread a bit too thin taking a bit too much and I I can recognize that that usually happens when I'm not in the doing of something so it's just breaking it down into day by day week by week and then trying to recognize okay well if I've maybe been away a bit much right I'll make sure that I've got that time clear and then also getting them to understand that okay yeah I might not I'm missing Halloween this year it's always like a nice fun thing for us to do but it's like okay well I'll make sure you have some fun with these people and then let's do something what's the thing that can happen when I get back that we wouldn't have done if I would have been home all that time and trying to sort of still find the fun and tweak it so that they can see there's just lots of ways to to run to have the family life that doesn't have to be the convention all the time yeah but it's it can be tricky and I think I think that's something kind of ongoing in me really because I have I did especially last year it was just so unexpectedly busy and I think I did feel a bit like okay I don't know how for how long I could have kept going at that pelt yeah you know it was a lot I'm glad I I'm glad I did it all but I think I did something like 150 gigs last year and it was just a bit it's just quite full I mean no wonder I had a sore throat by Christmas I was like oh my gosh I was really um it's just a lot sometimes I've definitely I don't like being away for long periods of time I try not to do it I've just come back from two and a half weeks and that was a bit long I think the last week I was like okay I'm kind of done they were absolutely fine but I was really thank goodness for phones yeah it's different now FaceTime and and also the support I have around me.

54:43I've got really good people who are very good at seeing when I'm feeling a bit and they're like, this is good you're doing it, this is all right, they'll be fine. But that's the thing, it's incredible for your kids to be seeing their mum going off and doing these things. I hope so. I mean, one thing that I did recognise is last year my eldest went away on his own for a month and he went to Japan and I thought maybe seeing his dad and I go off and do what we do might have just helped him a little bit with his ability to then take that on I mean actually I think that's important I wouldn't have been able to go away for a month on my own at that age but I thought well he maybe he took a little bit of that and thought it's not such a big deal and I want to so yeah went around hostels in Tokyo and Osaka and I think it was really good for him actually so maybe it's a long game isn't it parenting yeah it's when people say you do really well I'm like can you just wait till the adults and then I'll find out how I did but even And then you said you speak to your mum every day, you know, and I wonder if part of that is the fact that it was you two for a chunk of time.

55:40Definitely. Yeah, definitely. And also the type of mum that I have. She's she's very good at all that. She's definitely a matriarch and she keeps us all communicating with each other as well. So my brother and sister and I, we all talk a lot as well. And I'm really grateful for it because I think it kind of gives me something to come back to when I need it. I was shocked, blown away, heartbroken for her when I read in the book that she'd had 10 miscarriages. I know. At what point did she talk to you about that? She didn't. Didn't she? No, I actually, this is actually quite crazy, but I found out because my mum used to sometimes be on this thing called The Right Stuff.

56:18Oh, yeah. Yeah, where they'd read the papers and talk about topics. My friend had seen it and she said, I spoke to her and she said, oh, I was hearing about your mum and all those miscarriages and I said, I think you mean an abortion because I'd also known that she had an abortion at some point. And she went, no, no, it's definitely miscarriages. So then I spoke to my mum and she said, yep, yep, I had 10. And she said, I just kept getting pregnant but I just kept losing the baby. And I know when in my, it was when I was a teenager. So I think, yeah, if she told me at the time, it would have been, I literally don't know what to do with that information.

56:52I wouldn't have really even understood what it meant, I don't think. I don't mean literally. I mean in terms of the emotional gravitas but yeah that's how I found out but don't you think also part of what you do now though in opening up those conversations you know you can't help but look back at when your mum would have been going through that and not having anyone to talk to as a reference point just going through those loss after loss after loss and feeling very isolated and alone in it I know poor mum and also I don't know just the idea of something like that getting so yep here we are again and dealing with it but then she has dealt with it she's you know she's she's pragmatic and she's a very like resolved person I think she's emotionally she's she's very resolved even though things happen that are sad and actually she has helped me with framing with those things because you can't live a life that doesn't have any heartache in it or loss grief but it's about how you involve that in your day to day I think and I think it's equipped me and I hope to pass it down I know she gives that wisdom to the kids my oldest boy lives with her so they have chats about things but I think I think she's done a brilliant job of never diminishing or running away from it she can sit with these things but also just not be defined by things that have not been easy so I really appreciate that You've described your household as a little bit feral Have I?

58:23this made me feel very happy yeah it's definitely not I mean yeah I remember once I spoke to Jules Oliver about her house and it's like really tidy and I said oh no you're the person that's been living in my head that I've been comparing myself to going out there somewhere is a woman very similar but she's just way more on top of it than me yeah that's just not my strong suit I think I can do it like up to a point but sometimes I even get things quite neat and tidy and then it actually makes me feel worse. So I think there's an aspect. So then you've given yourself a standard then. Yeah, I think there's an aspect of life happening that I actually find keeps me tidier here.

59:04I don't know if this is true. I love it. Sophie, if you could write a letter on motherhood, who would it be to and what would you say? I think it would have to be to Martha. This is my little sister. I mean, she's in reality like a grown-up woman but in my mind she's still quite six, you know. incredibly capable six-year-old but yeah she gave birth this year to my niece alba and so i became an aunt for the first time uh and alba is absolutely delicious we're all obsessed with her obviously and it's been glorious to see my boys becoming cousins and they're so sweet with babies i've made sure they're quite good at like they can all hold a baby over the shoulder like this they're quite you know quite familiar but yeah i think to her i mean there's i don't know if I'd say any advice or anything I think it's more just really it's just a really lovely thing to see her step into it so so well and she it's been all the things you'd expect you know the bits that she's felt really good about and then the bits you're like ah this is happening is this normal will I ever sleep again all the typical stuff but um it's just been really lovely to have have that be part of our lives now and I'm really happy for her and Gabe she always wanted to be a mum so I'm really happy for her.

1:00:16It's really lovely to see someone that you're close to like that. I have it with my sister-in-law someone who's slightly younger but stepping into that new role. Yeah and so neatly and then Martha did say that she feels she has learned a lot. She's an excellent auntie and has a lovely relationship with all my boys so I think she's used to come over and help out all the time so she did say she feels like that's helped so it feels like that nice feeling of like yeah the familial passing round of things as well which is yeah again very wholesome isn't it yeah it really is yeah we end the podcast with you completing three sentences the first one is being a mum means i think it's purpose actually grounding and i mean i think the first word that popped in the middle is like everything but i i don't think it is that's not quite the right word it's more it's more of a sensation than that it's kind of being plugged into something and then like knowing knowing where you are in the world just love being around my family so much yeah do you think about as they get older what that looks like and the the coming back do you know what I mean is that I do and I suppose it's funny because sometimes you feel like oh we're in that chapter I used to think about certainly seeing them this year has been quite significant I suppose because we've had my youngest so the youngest is 66 but then the next one up just about turn 10 and then 13 and 16 21 and it all feels like there's bigger ages you know and sometimes I'll step back and I can see them all especially the big three and a little cluster are talking about things and laughing about stuff and sometimes sort of regulating each other a bit as well and it's nice to step back and see all of that stuff happening and think ah maybe I don't need to be all things to all people because they can go to other people to get the things they need and I love that feeling and I was even out for lunch with the oldest four the other day and my oh this was telling my third like you need to eat more vegetables you haven't eaten enough vegetables and I was like wow this is great I can really step back and no one had an argument and it was all really easy because you know sometimes when they're little that fraught you know you're way too constant next to each other at supper like that kind of thing we have to do that we walk into a restaurant and I'm like Richard remember those two like separate oh I had the worst worst worst restaurant visit the other day honestly just when it's quite it was just it was me my three boys Emma Willis and her youngest right Her youngest is a dream.

1:02:38My three, just, I should have brought pens. I should have brought colour, something. I just didn't. You know, they were being kids, essentially. Just being kids. Bickering. But bickering, being loud. Oh, no. Not listening to me at all. I had that as well, by the way. Just cry. I had that real, like, you know, will you sit back on your chair? Yeah. Put your feet down. Yeah. Put your feet down. And I'm thinking, everybody's looking over at me. And sometimes, well, if we're with all of them, we're a bit like elephants on parade anyway. Yeah. sort of traipsing like and they're like oh that's a lot of people and I feel like come on you know you've got to like we're in a restaurant now and use your knife and fork and don't wind him up don't wind him up and it's just like they're not listening to me at all but then once I relax if I'm just like if I pretend no one cares I'm a lot better it's because I worry a lot about what other people are thinking same same I'm exactly the same but it's yeah I'm like why come on you know And I think it didn't help that my back was to the restaurant.

1:03:38Yes, I mean, I feel like it was the other way around. If I could see and kind of go, no one's looking. I had exactly the same thing. And sometimes as well, I remember years ago, the day before my birthday had been really nice. And then the next day, Richard was away. I woke up, they were all fighting. And I said to one of them, you were so nice yesterday. And he went, Mama, that was yesterday. And it was the worst birthday I've maybe ever had. They broke me that day, I think, actually. I remember the way home from, I had like a roast at my mum's, which was supposed to be really nice, but they were being so horrible to each other and me, actually.

1:04:13And then the way home, I'd bought them pizza because they hadn't really eaten anything. And I got in and I was like, happy birthday to you. Only it wasn't your birthday, it was mine. I was just, and then you realise you've just lost it. You've become the child. I was like, well done. You can't help it. Absolutely broken me. Yeah. Yeah. Next sentence, Sophie. Next sentence is, since having children, I. More patient, definitely. I haven't asked for everything we just said. Yeah, because I have to be. I've had to be. Otherwise, I'd be shrieking around all the time. So true. Right, final sentence is, I'm happy when?

1:04:51When I'm home, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Does everybody say that, do you think? Well, it's varied. When we're together. When we're together. Yeah, but it's true. And I think it's a bit like, like a battery kind of feeling, isn't it? Like, I know that, you know, I love what I do. And I love going to work. And it's very fulfilling. But that feeling of like the sort of plugging back into it is what makes me always feel like completely centered again. And I always need it. So yeah, even just like, I mean, like, Richard's been away a couple of nights. I've had like different little people in my bed with me.

1:05:24And it's just nice, isn't it? And it won't last forever. Like, this is like that bit where they still do that. But yeah, I do love it when we're all together very much. Do you feel like having Sonny and Kit always gives you great perspective in terms of those things aren't going to continue? Yeah, it does. Sometimes in a way that I worry is almost not helpful because with Mickey, he's still only six. He's still got quite a long, he's still got little for quite a bit. But in my mind, he's been kind of pulled up by the older ones because now I have a couple of teenagers. And so I think I have to remind myself, oh no he is still quite quite little because it's older kids tend to sort of make the little ones act a bit older as well even if they're not really but so i think yeah it does it does give perspective but also sometimes it makes things go a little bit faster yeah because it's feasible that i just had my first one with mickey and then that would be all i know yeah so i have to kind of remind myself of that really and not rush his childhood yeah so true sophie thank you so much thank you delight as i thought it would it's really nice nice way to spend the day thank you It nearly has turned into a whole day.

1:06:29I tried to warn you.