Tess Daly: " the show must go on, no matter what"

0:00I know, I just love you with your shoes off, on your sofa, chilling out, why not? It's the best way to be, right? At work. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, the podcast. Today's a little bit different because we're doing this at my house. But I have an amazing guest who only lives up the road, so it made much more sense than slipping into town. Today's guest is a presenter and she has been the presenter of Strictly Come Dancing for the last 21 years. Absolutely incredible. She is the co-owner of an amazing swimwear brand. She's an author. She's also the mother of two women.

0:41Two women ladies. It's just daily. They are almost. Well, one of them is a woman, you're right. One of them is. Thank you for having me, honey. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much. In your house, so comfy on your sofa. I know. I feel like I've gone too far into the relaxed vibes. I might as well have my pyjamas on, to be honest. It's so relaxing. Thank you. I'm enjoying it already. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good, yeah. You're in the thick of it already. I know, yeah, it's just quite nice to sit down for a moment and not be wearing high heels and running at speed. Yeah, no, it's great. Actually, it's always great fun.

1:13It's such a fun show. You know. I know, but I've also seen you going here, there and everywhere in that studio. Yeah, cover a lot of space. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I reckon if I did the steps, it would probably be about 40 ,000 in heels. Well, I imagine a little watch wouldn't really go with any of your outfits that you're wearing, so you can't really track them properly. I can't wear it. That's the problem. But yeah, I would be interested to know. But no, it's always a giggle. Really? I love that. So much fun. And the girls are now so much older. It's unreal. I mean, Phoebe's 21 in October. She's like a visual reference of how long I sort of, when I started Strictly, I was pregnant with her.

1:52And Amber's 16. So yeah, both of them were in my stomach during the series. Wow. Dancing away. Were you visibly pregnant with either of them? Yeah, I was actually. And it was funny because I remember when I first got the job on Strictly and I remember I was pregnant. I was newly pregnant with Phoebe, 2004. And I didn't tell them that I was pregnant because I thought, well, there were two reasons why I didn't tell them. One, I thought they might not give me the job. yeah two I thought well actually it's really early on before you tell anyone I've not even told my own mother yet it was sort of eight nine weeks I think it was you know that's phase that phase before you tell anyone because you want to be sure and you tell them at 12 weeks so I didn't tell them I thought well I'm not going to tell them before I tell my own mother doesn't affect my ability to do my job and you know at the back of my mind I did think what if they didn't want me because they don't want a visibly pregnant woman on a prime time show on Saturday night of which by the way in 2004 you didn't see many pregnant women on Saturday night shows I hadn't remembered myself at that time seen anybody so I said yes please to the job I'd love to work with Bruce Forsyth this sounds wonderful a program about dancing and celebrities it sounds nuts I'm in and then I remember the first time I met everybody because that was sort of a yes before then we had a press conference so that was the first time I sort of met the team met Bruce and I had a little bump then and was because that was quite a few weeks later and there was I with my little bump surprise did you have to say something at that point yeah I said I'm pregnant and uh nobody minded and it was absolutely fine and then so I was that was series one we had two series in 2004 that very first year two series in the first year short series to start yeah when I was pregnant sort of to test the water it's about a six-week series and then we had another series at the end of the year and I'd given birth six weeks prior to that series starting and went back at the halfway point.

4:01It was an eight-week series. Now, of course, we do like a 13-week series. Eight weeks, I went back four weeks in and I had a six-week-old baby. Six weeks to the day since I'd given birth, I went back and that was no mean feat because I was a new mother. I'd had a cesarean. so you can work sort of six timing wise it worked out really well because you can work six weeks after having a cesarean which is a pretty major operation and that's when I went back to work but it was pretty daunting in the six weeks since giving birth becoming a new mum not knowing what I was doing not sleeping very much recovering from the cesarean and knowing I was going back to work also having that in your mind that whole six weeks yeah you know if you think about when you've just given birth and how awful you feel but in six weeks I need to be yes you know just turning up to work that's right like it's prime time I know BBC I need to be controlling the leaking breast milk not on live television I need to be expressing and pumping like a pro so that doesn't happen live you know there's all these things you've got to think about yeah um but I remember actually on one occasion it wasn't strictly it was a different live tv show that I was doing and it was a one-off special like a fashion special and I remember I was breastfeeding at the time and I we were going live and I hadn't had time to like express you know you've got to express the milk and get it out and I remember talking to the producer it was about an hour to the live show I had like one of those hairdresser ponchos on over me having to express with the express at the same time as making notes with the producer about the show that was coming up after the dress rehearsal we'd done so I did this I only had time to do like one boob didn't have time to do the other one because we were going live and I remember going live on air thinking oh my god one boob is you know when it goes like hot and it goes and you know it's and you're going to start lactating I remember we were live and I remember they were counting into the ad break and I was thinking oh my god there's this I'm leaking breast milk so and I could feel the hot I could feel the heat and then coming out and I could at the floor and by my feet, there was a little puddle of milk.

6:11I was like, yeah, live. But I was wearing a black dress. So nobody knew. Oh, nobody could tell me. But I was speaking to the camera and linking into the ad break and knowing that this was happening live, thinking, oh, my goodness, I can't believe this is actually happening to me. But I've just got to keep talking into the break. I can't stop talking. I can't apologize for it. I can't look down, I've just got to go. And I did. And yeah, that happened to me live because I didn't have time to express the milk before we went live because it was such a busy work day. But is that thing you've gone down the barrel, not looking?

6:45No. I was trying not to look, but just feeling like this little drip, drip, drip. Yeah. That was... Have you ever seen it back? Daunting. I did see it back and you couldn't tell. Yeah. But it was... At the time I was like, I just didn't know what to do, but I just had to carry on oh gosh show must go on no matter what did you tell me that was daunting yeah afterwards I was like I really needed time to do that before we went live but we you know when you're on a live show it has to go yeah you can't wait for anyone yeah um it's scheduled at that time and so yeah that was that was wild that was tough but that's the thing you know you were you're a new mum at that point your body is doing what it's going to do you can't control it no and And so many women would be in exactly the same position.

7:35Of course, you know, you're going back to work. You're trying to do the job you've always done, but you've become a mother in the meantime. And a lot has changed, but you're just trying to negotiate. Are you trying to deal with the new you? And you're just trying to accommodate the baby, your job. You still want to work, but you want to be a mum and you're just trying to make it all, you know, you're trying to make it all work. And it's sort of through trial and error, really, we just get through it, don't we? Because we have to. You do. but you also don't want anyone to think differently of you oh you know the whole you know you don't want anyone of the mum now you know you don't want to be dismissed right because of this other role that you have you you are still the same person you've just got leaky boobs at this point you know or you know you're not you're not still want to do the things that you did before you became a mum yeah that you enjoyed doing so you just try and get through it as best you can absolutely i reckon so many people have probably leaked in inappropriate places yeah i'm sure and it's At the time, it's kind of like, you're embarrassed.

8:31You're like, oh no, I don't want anyone to see this. But sometimes it just happens and you've just got to get through it and get on with it. I have not thought about the letdown and that heat for many years. Yeah. But just talking about it just kind of makes me go, I know exactly what that feels like. You remember right back there. Yeah. It's happened to us all. Yeah. Just maybe not on live telling. How did you juggle the sleep? The sleep was the hardest part for me. Because Phoebe didn't sleep for three and a half years. Exactly. Honestly, it was so hard. And that's why there are four and a half years between my children, because you cannot contemplate having, you know, welcoming another baby into the mix.

9:10If the first one's not sleeping, you can't do two simultaneously not sleeping, because how could you get through the night? And yeah, she didn't sleep for three and a half years. She just kept waking up. She'd wake up two or three times a night and then she'd go through the phases becoming a toddler. so she'd I'd hear the little feet running down bit of butter down the hallway and I'd knock it on the door she you know she learned how to use a baby monitor as soon as she could talk she'd push it and say hi I'm awake can I have a bottle um like like it was room service you know and she soon sort of worked her way out of that like you know they they get out the cot as soon as they can walk and you know they they're so wily and they find their way get better when she could get out of her, caught her out of her bed.

9:53It took about three and a half years before she slept through the night. Three and a half years. That's got to be so hard. It was rough. I remember going to work sometimes and I remember being so tired because I'd slept, just sitting on the sofa in my dressing room and thinking, someone would knock on my dressing room to come and get me and take me to the studio floor. And I honestly, I think, okay, I've got to psych myself up now to get off this, get off this sofa because I can't physically stand up. I don't mean whoa me, poor me, but it was sometimes really tough because being up all night and then having to go to work was hard, you know.

10:29Yeah. I bet the only thing that actually, well, obviously it's the job, but also the adrenaline must have really helped. The adrenaline was my friend. You are going live, there you go. Adrenaline was everything because adrenaline's like rocket fuel. It just surges through your system and kicks everything else to the curb and you are ready to go. And yeah, that absolutely got me through it. It was brilliant. But yeah, I remember once being so tired, crawling off that sofa on my hands and knees to the door because I couldn't walk. I could I could not walk. I was so tired. And I thought, how am I going to do it?

11:01And then I thought I will do it because the adrenaline will kick in and I'll be OK. And I was. It was hard. and then when the second one came around Amber she literally I was like I had a no tolerance policy for sleep deprivation at that point well and I was older as well I was 40 I'm like you know it was harder then to to work without having sleep you you know I just knew I couldn't go through that again um and so but she was a dream she literally from three months slept 12 hours through the night like a little angel um yeah I always think of the worry is if those that that happens the opposite way around if you start with a sleeper yes I think I am so good at this parenting I know like pat me on the shoulder and the second one comes along and realize you realize it's nothing to do with you it's them it's them yeah but you know I sort of did you know you do learn things you do learn I learned to sort of settle her before leaving the bedroom when she so that she wouldn't be asleep when I left the bedroom, so that I was there with her and she would fall asleep.

12:06So she would fall asleep. I'd settle her and soothe her and give her a little blankie or a little cuddly toy, and that would be her comfort. And so I would leave, I learned to leave the bedroom. Like, this is a great sleep tip for new mums, I think. If you rock your baby to sleep, or if you're there when your baby falls asleep, when baby wakes up, which is inevitable three or four times through the night, they will cry for you if you're not there, because you were there when they fell asleep, so they're like, where's she gone? but if they fall asleep if you've said night night and you've made it all positive the bedtime routine and they have their little comfort blanket or their little toy to snuggle into to pull in as a comfort when they wake up if they fall asleep then without you there I for me this is what worked when they wake and you're not there it's okay because they're you they fell asleep without you there in the first place so for me that sort of them learning to sleep settle themselves really helped yeah because you know it just it kind of makes sense doesn't it if if they can do that and comfort themselves when they wake up of course they're going to cry they're going to get hungry and they're going to need you and you're going to go in there during the night no matter what especially in the early months but that for me I think that was an eye-opener is just let you know teach them to self-soothe so that they can self-settle when they wake up I got so into the whole sleep saying having like been on the rough end of it you know that's the thing if It's gone one way for so long.

13:26Yeah. You've literally been having to drag yourself into the studio. You don't want that again. I know. So that, yeah, that was hard. That was hardcore. And I'm strong, you know, I'm fit and healthy. I like to think, but it sort of, it almost brought me to my knees, that lack of sleep, being up three or four times a night. It was rough. But she's a dream now. She sleeps beautifully. And that's all that matters. Now she's 20. Tess, I'm going to leap you back to your childhood. What was it like? Do you know, it was pretty idyllic, really, because it was myself, my younger sister. She's three and a half years younger than me, Karen.

14:03And mum and dad, loads of love. Just, you know, I just remember running around in the fields having loads of freedom. My mum would let us play out, as we did then, and she'd call us in for tea time. And it was just, yeah, there was a lot of love. And it was just a pretty uncomplicated, happy upbringing, really. In the Peak District, is that right? Yeah, in the Peak District, yeah. What a gorgeous place to be. It's really, really pretty. Lots of fields to play in. You had the whole, I can remember the rumours of this around school. You were scouted for, you know that whole thing of when people were walking down Oxford Street or something and people were like, yeah, someone stop me.

14:41That actually, you actually got scouted for modelling. Yeah, that did happen to me. I was in Manchester shopping with my sister because that's sort of our nearest biggest town where you go for your big shop if you had a big night out on a Saturday. um and yeah I got scouted someone came up to me and sort of gave me like a leaflet for their model agency and said come and see us and I just stuck it under my bed and forgot about it and then I was yeah I was studying I had a lot of free time at that time I remember one day I had a day off and I was bored and I reached under the bed and this pamphlet came out into my hand and I thought oh going to Manchester I'll go and see them and I went to see them and then that was it within about six weeks I was in Japan I was I was only 17 the thing I find amazing about it I've got kids that's Amber next year I mean I literally cannot contemplate it no wonder my mum and dad fought me they were like you are not going I said I am going no you're not especially then like now if one of the girls went they would have their phones I know they'd be able to contact you all the time that's it and then nobody had mobile phones in so I was going to this you know completely different foreign environment halfway across the world didn't have a mobile phone I remember my mum had arranged to call me like every week on a Thursday at seven and I had to be in the room at that time because if I couldn't be there I couldn't let her know because we didn't have mobile phones but um it was an incredible experience and like yeah I was so young I mean I literally cried myself to sleep I think for the first month I made a little tally chart so that I could mark off the days because I was like I'm so homesick it was hard I'd never cooked for myself I'd never done anything for myself at that point I was having to sort of fend for myself find my way around And, you know, lots of different cities in Japan where nobody spoke English.

16:20I had to get trains, the bullet train, three hours to the south of, you know, Japan. I've heard you say that with those, you would only know, you'd have to time the journey so you'd know where to get off. Because the announcements were in Japanese. The symbol, the names were Japanese. So there was no English translation anywhere. So I didn't, I couldn't look at the name of the station. The only way I knew which station, when I would arrive at my station, was by setting my alarm clock. because those trains were famously on time. The bullet train. Yeah. And just hope for the best when I got off that it was the right stop, you know, because, yeah, it was wild.

16:55It was an adventure. But having done that, now that you have, like you have Phoebe and Amber, how would you feel, like, does it make you look back at 17-year-old you differently? Yeah, definitely. Because I think we had to grow up quicker then. I think we sort of have parented our children for longer in a way like when I was 17 I thought I was fully able to travel the world and having never left like literally Britain at that point you know and I just thought I just think I don't know we I think we started doing stuff earlier then I think now we parent our kids later they live with us later and longer you know then you sort of it was expected you'd leave home at 20 now kids stay with us for longer I think I think practically because they can't afford houses they have to stay with us for longer um and yeah so I cannot imagine my own children doing that at 17 because I sort of feel like I survived despite the pitfalls you know you know I mean there were yeah but it but ultimately it was a wonderful experience because you know I was living as a local I was traveling I was having to find my way around it was sort of a crash course in uh life experience and I loved it ultimately and then ended up traveling the world for the next 12 years but um it was quite a lot that young age I suppose but then I went from crying every night to then making friends and loving it and not wanting to leave and then crying when I was leaving three months later funny isn't it just and and that taught me a lot about resilience I was like you thought it was to start with you were crying out of loneliness three months later you were crying but you didn't want to leave because you met the most wonderful people immersed yourself in the lifestyle and the culture made friends and had the best time and it really taught me that you know you've got to you've got to keep at things because I wanted to run in that first month I wanted to run home but I didn't because I'd you know fought my mum and dad to go in the first place so I had to prove that I had to prove to them that I was able to do it I felt like that that's what I had to do and so I stayed it out I stuck it out and then ultimately it was wonderful and so I thought wow something that I thought was so awful in the beginning could completely turn around 360 and become the best experience of my life that taught me just to stick at stuff because if you give up, if had I given up and left, then I wouldn't have known just how brilliant it could be, you know.

19:12And so that taught me resilience for like the rest of my life. So, yeah. As a parent as well, though, I wonder if that's kind of also that lesson of having to let your children go off and do those things and how they might be the most amazing thing in the world and how they might, you know, instill so much and inform so much as they become, you know, adults and stuff. But it's that letting go. I know. I wonder if we also know too much now. Yes. As parents, you know, everything is full of fear. Yeah. And that whole thing of kids staying home, part of that is also us kind of going, and we're safe here.

19:50Yes. You know. Very true. So, yeah, I wonder if that's also, well, there's an amazing freedom in that sort of, you know, however many decades ago. Yeah. Many decades ago. It's funny.

20:08yeah no it was great I mean yeah because of kind of that wealth experience I felt I gained from traveling the world and living in different places I would like to encourage now my own kids to do a little bit of that I think it's such a great experience they will too I hope so I mean I don't want them going for long or forever don't get me wrong just tip the toe in and come back I can remember when Vernon did the podcast I think Phoebe was going to Reading for the first time. Oh yeah. So he was also going to Reading to park himself somewhere and go, you go, I'm here. Yeah. I'm here if you need me.

20:40So I can imagine you two going, yes, you go off traveling and then you two having your own backpacks. I know. Just standing. Honestly, I would be, I would be very, I'd still be super, super nervous because we are sort of, like you say, we're hyper, we're so overprotective now, aren't we? We do cover them in cotton wool a little bit. Sometimes I tell myself, step back, let them find themselves, let them find their way. because otherwise they, you know, they're having to second guess every decision they make. If we make all those decisions for them, how can they find their own way? So it's that fine line, really, isn't it?

21:13And that's what I have now, because I've got like young women that I've parented. And so I have to find that life, you know, walk the tightrope of giving them enough advice, sharing my own sort of knowledge and wisdom, what I've learned along the way, But also not wanting to step on their toes and sort of over-inform them. It's tricky, isn't it? Because you do want them to find their own way. Yeah, you do. I've read so many different things as well about taking the risk out of our kids' life. They have to learn how to risk assess for themselves. Because actually we're doing them a disservice by constantly removing the risk.

21:52Exactly. Or saying, be careful, don't do that, don't do that. But actually, they've got to try certain things to realise that either how to do it safely or that it's something they just don't want to do. You know, and that's something I think it's so important as a parent that we don't make things too easy for them. We don't sweat them in cotton wool too much because they have to develop resilience. It's vital. They're going to need it. And they also need, you know, they need to find their own way. They need to have that drive, I think, to find their own way. that want you know what is it that I want to do what makes me happy what is my drive and they you know they need to sort of find that and often I think they shadow the parents they see if the parents have for me like for example my mum worked throughout our childhood and so from so I don't know I said I think you tend to repeat what you know so for me it was a no-brainer to work as well like and it was what defined me I enjoyed my work I didn't want to stop doing it but I also wanted to be you know the best one I could be and be there for everything that my children would possibly need me for you know I didn't want to miss out on anything um but I just yeah I mean I think they do obviously they learn by default they mirror a lot of our habits but I think one of the most important thing we can teach them as parents is find your own way find what makes you happy find what makes you tick and so we can't do everything for them we can't make it It's sort of too easy for them because we will remove their drive.

23:21You know, they have to want to earn their own money. They have to want to get out there in the world. You know, so they have to want to do that. Is that something that you and Vernon have really consciously thought about? Because obviously both of your upbringings are very different to the upbringings that you've been able to give your girls. But with that, you know, have you consciously thought, well, we have to make sure that we're not saying yes to everything, that we are kind of putting in those boundaries that just because our lifestyle is different because of your jobs, that you are able to instill.

23:54I wouldn't dream of spoiling my kids. I do not want spoiled brats. I want humble, good girls who are grateful, who are kind. You know, you can't. Your child, for me, my idea of hell would be having it entitled to children. Like that's the worst thing. it's not good for them it's not good for you so you know we've always sort of taught them the value of money and of working hard and um that's all they know really I mean that's what we know that's where we come from we've worked hard I've been crafting since I was 17 years old um but that's what I mean because you two have worked so hard yeah you know just because you're in this position now you haven't always been you've worked hard to get here yeah absolutely so it didn't come easy yeah you know it wasn't handed on a plate no and so they see that as an example and they see you know it's you know the whole sort of working mum thing for me is and I'm sure every other working mum agrees it's it's the juggle it's the struggle it's the wanting to work but it's not wanting to leave your kids it's the mum guilt you know that comes with that as well and um just trying to always balance that out and sort of be there and not miss out on any you know on any of those important occasions that you want to be there as a parent like I've never missed a sports day in my life I've never missed a carol service I've never missed a school play I couldn't how that's more important than anything to me you know yeah because Gabby Logan said about you um when you did uh midpoint with her uh she said that she feels like you are happiest when you are doing the mothering things I am when you're with your girls that is my most fulfilling role yeah absolutely is and that is what you know I define myself as a mother it's the most important job I've ever had and everything else I think just it does fade by comparison because you know that's these people depend upon me yeah and you want to give them the best chance the best start you can and you want to be there for them and yeah I just I love being I've loved being a mom like for me my happiest times were at the school gates chatting to other moms I'm just like a sponge soaking up everything they know give me your sleep tips okay well you know just those mums throughout every stage of me being a mum have at the school gates they've become my best friends I'm still best friends now my tightest circle of girlfriends are school mums I met when our kids were five yeah and our kids are still friends and we're best friends now because we've been you know friends for 15 years and um we go on holiday together I built a business Gail we built a swimwear brand together naya beach we are you know we've been we are tight because we've been through every stage in our kids lives together yeah you know whether that's when they become teenagers whether it's just gcse's a levels choosing universities we've been through this together and i i you know being a mom i just i i love it i love being a mom

26:57the mum friends thing is really interesting because i feel like it's a really gorgeous time of time in life to scoop up yeah new friends yeah no and you're all going through so it doesn't matter what you do it's such a level playing field so we've all got the same concerns you know it's just yeah we have so much in common it's just like immediate bonding um And so, you know, I would go earlier to school. I go earlier for pickup and I didn't want to miss school pickup because I knew that was valuable interaction time with other mums. And I'd get so much from it because I'd get information about I might have I don't know, I might have missed something that was a hockey match on Tuesday.

27:34That was kind of, oh, imagine if I'd missed that hockey match, you know, because you can't ever drop the ball, can you? You can't ever. Is that how you kind of deal with mum guilt is just to make sure that everything is in the diary. So at least those things, you know that you're going to those things. Yeah, I was fanatical always about like kind of making sure, making a note of everything. And because you've got to be organized, you know, you have to plan stuff around them because it's like parents. I remember they would always sort of, the school would always let us know about parents evening five or six days before.

28:04I'd be clutching my head going, oh, gosh, I can't believe I've got a job. What am I going to do? But I've got I can't miss parents evening. It's once a year, you know, so it was. yeah it's always been a juggle and I think it's the same for every working mom isn't it it's the same for every mom full stop you know every mom is juggling but I think the one thing we have in common is the most important thing the biggest priority in our life is our kids and I love it and that's why I'm here because I love talking about parenting well did you know you always wanted to be a mom uh no no no no when I was traveling the world I throw well I sort of knew though you know I had subconsciously knew I would be and I always wanted two girls I suppose because I come from two you know me and my sister from two girls that's what I always wanted I mean so subconsciously yes I sort of parked it because I was too busy traveling the world and having a lovely time living all over the place um working in the fashion industry worked as a model then and so I was kind of had a nomadic life and it didn't really suit that life I was you know and then I I think, yeah, when I met, when I was 30, perhaps.

29:08Yeah, 30, 31. And then I kind of met someone who made me think it was a possibility. And, yeah, and then that was it. That just totally... Soon it was. Yeah. And then when you decided to start thinking about a family, is that something you talked about early doors, about the fact that you both wanted to be parents? No, not really. Didn't plan it, just happened. Oh, really? Yeah. but I suppose then had we been together a couple of years, two or three years yeah, I suppose the time was right you know, I was like 32 or something yeah how did you feel when you found out you were pregnant? I was delighted yeah, I was thrilled to bits absolutely thrilled didn't find out the sex of the baby, wanted it to be a surprise and when she was born I remember the obstetrician looked her in the air and said it's a pink one I'm like what do you mean pink, is she pink, is she okay?

30:03what do you mean the colour what I was confused you know I'd had a cesarean c-section I was very confused um it was quite a lot he's a pink one yeah he meant it's a girl so I was thrilled yeah it was a girl but the thing that you two had is that Vernon's been vocal about the fact that he would he would have quite liked a boy first in his mind to kind of protect the family right right Yeah, play ball sports with him. But yeah, he wouldn't change a thing. No, absolutely not. You know, when you get what you get, you would never change it. No. You absolutely would not. And second time around, I was convinced it was a boy.

30:40I don't know why. I just was not craving the same sugary foods. Yeah. You know, in the first pregnancy, all I wanted was donuts, donuts, donuts. I remember going to the Krispy Kreme counter and the guy would give me a whole box. He would see I was pregnant. I'd ask for one and he'd give me a box of 12. And I go, thank you. he said you need these like so you know i literally lived on donuts so he gave you the idea and then from then on you were constantly buying a box of 12 it was yeah okay just give me 12 um but then when the second pregnancy i was it was baked potatoes i was craving potatoes chips anything and so i thought it's definitely a boy and so then i found out the sex and um she was it was a girl again so i was yeah did you find out the sex in that pregnancy yes second time round did what was the difference that time around what made you kind of go actually we're going to find out just because I I don't know I wanted to know the first time around I wanted to be a surprise second time around I was like I want to know if it's worth keeping all of Phoebe's clothes

31:38yeah exactly I'm folding things again and again I'm piling things up am I going to need all the pink stuff um so I thought I might as well find out and did and so yeah it was the girl again so How did you feel heading towards birth the first time around? Because it was a planned C-section. Yeah. So that kind of took away any of the new way you were doing it. I had a sort of minor medical condition at the time. So the obstetrician recommended I have a C-section, which I did and it was fine. But, you know, you don't realize at the time that it is a major operation and you are sort of, you know, you can't drive for six weeks, can't carry anything heavier than your baby for six weeks.

32:17um and so yeah second time around I was determined I was told there was a 70 % chance of me being able to give birth naturally because following a c-section that is the percentage you know success you can you can give birth naturally and so when the obstetrician told me that I thought okay 70 % that's pretty high odds I'm going with it because I don't want to be in hospital for five well it's not five nights now it's like two or three nights with a baby with a child a young child at home it's not convenient to be in hospital you constantly think about the first one there's another one who needs me yeah as well as you know i don't want to be in it's not practical for me to be in a hospital bed guilt of being a mum to multiple at that point yeah the thought of not being with your your firstborn exactly when you're in your hospital with your second that was that was daunting i was like i can't be in a hospital bed i've got there's too much i've got to do at home um so yeah um i thought okay these are good odds I'm just gonna go with it and I was just determined that I was gonna do it naturally and fortunately did how did you feel heading into that birth was it exciting kind of going oh this is going to be a little bit different yeah yeah I was just determined that I was going to do it naturally because I was determined not to have an operation unless it was absolutely necessary and I was determined to be going home later that day with a baby and not still be in hospital so that was my drive I thought I need to get back you know there's lots going on at home and I just if I can I will yeah and I did can you remember Phoebe meeting Amber for the first time yeah it was the sweetest thing I mean that bond between you know sisters I remember had it I was a big sister so I remember that bond and looking after your little sister and they've always had that they are so close and from that first day she sort of took her under her wing was so gentle with her and so nurturing and because she was already sort of four and a half she was you know she she was old enough to have her sat on her lap and to cuddle her and cradle her and it was that yeah that bond was just gorgeous from the start it just touches you as a mom to see that um and it's been lovely and she's looked after her little sister ever since that's so gorgeous she's the best big sister i'm always telling her that well it must be weird now i mean i know this is quite the jump but the fact that that phoebe is a young woman that she's off now doing her own thing no it's wild you know Amber's getting to the age now where she's kind of thinking about what she wants to do next.

34:40She's 16. Yeah, so how is motherhood now? And is it weird looking back at where you were and kind of go, wow, what a whirlwind. Do you feel like you've been spassed out the other side of that? Yeah, it's incredible, isn't it? I remember when they were little and everybody would say to me, oh, it goes so fast. Enjoy them. Enjoy this stage when you're pushing around in a boogie and you're holding their hands and they're walking, having a little tantrum in the supermarket. strangers would say enjoy it love it goes really quickly and I think yeah okay I hope so because this is the tantrum face of the supermarket and it's a bit awkward but it does go so fast you know it amazes me that sometimes the girls like to look at the photos on my phone from when they were little and they go back and Amber was doing an art project recently and she was doing photographs of herself and her sister through through the years you know as they were growing up and you look back at these photos and you think that was nine years ago now they're all well one is grown up I was gonna say almost grown up and it's amazing how quickly it goes because you don't feel any different in yourself you you know you're the same person really and here they are they're looking you in the eye now and they're like grown-ups giving you advice um and and it's It's just, it's wild how it just goes full circle, really.

35:56You know, Phoebe's like my best friend now, she feels like. Even yesterday, you know, your phone pops up videos, and I don't know, it was just like six years ago, and I was thinking, oh, my gosh, she was young then. Look at them, they're tiny. And, yeah, it goes so quick. I can't believe it. But you've got to get through the teenage years first, obviously, and that's quite challenging. How are they? I remember sort of 16 was a tough year, 15 to 16. I think at that age, girls tend to test your authority a bit because they're finding themselves. I remember being tested a lot at the 16-year-old phase.

36:31It's just a learning curve, really. We learn as we go, don't we? And we find our way, I suppose, as much as they do. But also with bits like that, realising that it's a developmental thing, it's nothing to do, you've not lost your child, they will come back, but it must be so hard in those moments to kind of go, take a deep breath. this is this is a for now thing it's not a forever one well that's it and you've just got to think they are under hormonal arrest right now you know they're literally their brains are full of chemicals they cannot control we've all been there and so yeah you've just got to remember that and sort of take a deep breath sometimes and step away but and just think they will come out the other side yeah do you think the teenage years were the toughest ones definitely definitely Definitely.

37:17Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. I'm not even there yet. You know that same bigger kids, bigger problems. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think, I think the teenage years are the toughest. I do. I do. Yeah. It's quite nice coming out the other side of those. Yeah. With one child at least. Um, yeah, because you're being tested more, I think. Yeah. It's not about sleep deprivation, but it's about big picture stuff. It's about, you know, it's it's they are finding their way. They're finding their way in life. And so they're often finding it via you. And so they will often go head to head with you and your views and your opinions.

37:56And because that's what happens at this stage in their life. They are, you know, it's a wrestle for control sometimes. And you just have to teach them gently and sort of lead them in the right direction and hold the hand as much as you can. There's got to be so much, though, that's out of your control. I feel like when they're younger, you can sort of, you have more of a say on things. You do. Well, no, it's your way or nothing. Well, and also play dates, right? It's a mum that you like with a child that they hopefully get on with and you get to spend, have a nice time with them. Oh, I love play dates.

38:25Whereas when they're older. I loved play dates. You can't say who their friends are. No, of course. And so as much as you would like to influence them in a really positive way, you don't know where these outside influences are coming from. Yeah, yeah. And you're driving a lot further for those play dates and you're dropping them off and going back again. Yeah. Like literally my other job is mum's cabs as is most parents. Yeah. I remember my dad saying that to me because my mum didn't drive dad's cabs. And it's true. That is like my second most important job after being a mum and then a taxi driver.

38:54But yeah, I mean, it is what it is. And I just, you know, I welcome all the cycles really because it's just part of the cycle of life, you know, and of being a parent and seeing them go through that journey themselves. themselves and all you can do is love them really and respect them and just guide them as gently as you can through it because we've all been through it ourselves it's not easy being a teenager no especially now it's scary yeah part of it the fact that now everything is so visual yeah yeah it's visual on your accountable and there's a record of everything online i remember phoebe saying to me the day gosh mom you were so lucky growing up when you could just go out dancing in nightclubs and nobody was filming you you know because nobody was nobody had phones then so there's like no record of it I used to take up one of those uh you know those cardboard photo at the yeah do you remember that yeah but you'd only have one photo of each thing and even then you'd forget it was in your bag most of the photos were just from the loos you know come on girls exactly you know um whereas now it is different yeah and I wonder if for some young people that kind of makes them i don't know be let be less carefree well they have to stay level-headed and yeah despite all of that you know it's sort of yeah i think for them that's another hurdle to negotiate yeah for sure it is yeah but you teach your kids as best you can to you know to deal with that to have the resilience to deal with that and you know we're all learning as we go really because that's an ever-changing landscape yeah one thing you have always been amazing with is talking about health and wellness and fitness and body image in a way that's really really positive having two girls two women yeah do you worry about that outside influence because i know when you were a model and younger you'd have people sort of putting their two of course as well when you came back from strictly you said about people maybe judging your baby weight right You know what it's like to have those voices.

40:56Yeah, to be judged for the way you look. The fact that we're seeing things in the palm of our hands. Yes. You know, is that a conversation that you are very open about with the girls? Well, yeah, I say, you know, I've always been very careful not to ever sort of judge them by their physical appearance. And I've always made sure that they do not, if you know what I mean. For example, I would never, ever mention that a certain food could make you put weight on or calorie count in foods, for example, because I just think that's unhealthy. I always teach my girls to sort of be kind about the way they judge themselves.

41:35You know, I've never projected images onto them that I think are unnatural and healthy to be able to maintain. I don't, you know, of course we all tell our kids they're beautiful, but I would don't, wouldn't dream of sort of judging them in that way because I think there's too much of that out there anyway, you know, sort of this generation. There's almost an expectation on them to be flawless for social media purposes. Yeah. You know, and I think that is a lot of pressure for them. So I wouldn't dream of adding any more pressure. They don't talk about that. I mean, obviously Amber's way too young to be bothered about that.

42:11It doesn't do social media. But I've never spoke about that. I've never spoke about any sort of, you know, I wouldn't dream of saying, oh, I've put weight on in these jeans. I don't discuss weight and stuff like that with them, body weight, body image. And I never have, really, because, you know, I worked in an industry where that was everything is what you look like was the end product. You know, you couldn't better yourself. You didn't have any control really over your career. the only way you could better yourself in your career was to sort of get more job when you're a model. It's about how you look.

42:41But that sort of made me go the other way because I've taught them as much as I can that it's about your beauty is about the content of your character. It's about how you are inside and it's about the kindness that you demonstrate because that will shine out of you and that will be beautiful. It's not about the outside. The outside will be beautiful if the inside is. and so that's what's important because you know I've I've worked in the industry where you are judged solely on what you look like and it's it's it's it's quite shallow it's quite you know and you I never wanted to sort of project anything like that onto them because I think it's it's it can be a little bit unhealthy so and I I worry with things like AI face training body tuning all that stuff that people do like nothing you see online yeah is real I know isn't it scary yeah isn't it scary I sometimes see people in the flesh and I go I do a double take I'm like oh looks nothing like you um without the big lights as big as a car which I usually have I love thank you very much it helps a lot at this point um you look beautiful Tess beautiful Honestly, I need a very big light at this point.

43:59But, you know, it can be a bit much, can't it, all that? Yeah. And it is a concern with AI. Like, what is going to happen? No one's going to look like themselves. They're all going to exist virtually, but not in reality. I don't know where it ends. How are you feeling about this next chapter of parenthood? The fact that at some point it might go back down to just you and Vernon. The girls might go, see you later, mum and dad. I mean, yeah, I can't imagine them not being around because everything that they are, everything they've done, everything about their lives has defined my life for the last 20 years since I've become a mom.

44:38I define myself through them because that is my life. You know, my life is arranging stuff around that. You know, sometimes I feel like I'm a PA. That's what happens when they get older. You become their PA. you're also sort of nanny housekeeper driver you know personal shopper cook um but then you're all then you become PA as well because you're arranging their social life as well but um all these different roles that we have that we you know I mean I love them all really I'm joking about it but I wouldn't change it and so it's weird because my life has been defined by them everything you know your holidays are defined by school holidays um for 20 years and so it's And where you go.

45:20Where you go, absolutely. It's based on what they will enjoy. Yeah, who will have kids. Yeah, exactly. You want other kids there so they have fun and they make friends. And it's all about that, really. And so, yes, if you, but I was going to say, if you remove them from the picture, then I can't, it looks like a very different picture. And I can't quite imagine it yet. But they're never really going to be removed from the picture. No. You know, they're always coming back. And they're always going to be there. And Amber is still only 16. so I think it'll be quite a while yet um so potentially could I have Amber for another eight years at home I'm just working it out you're edging a little bit closer though yeah I drew and you've seen how quickly it's happened with Phoebe yeah no I know I know absolutely gosh it's gonna happen before I know it and it's gonna be really weird I'm gonna have way too much time I'm gonna become a yoga master are you hopefully because I'll be doing that in my spare time um yeah uh running up hills and things um just trying to burn off the energy because i'm someone who just can't stay still that's why i've been a mom it keeps me busy but it's that isn't it it's the busyness so if i suddenly have a day off i'm a bit i'm discombobulated because i just feel like what do i do i'm not someone who goes for a day to the spa you know i'm like thinking what do my kids need me to do today do you know what i mean so i'm always making up for like if i've if i've worked for a day or two then I'm like now this time I need to do more for them because I was absent here so I'm always trying to make up for that so yeah if I you know remove them from that picture yeah I don't know I mean it could be quite lovely could be really great I could be like fucking weekend breaks with my girlfriends to be there how about that I'm loving this for you I might be back dancing on podiums before you know it imagine you're gonna actually be a contestant You're going to be one of the celebs on Strictly Come Dancing because you've resurrected to a pole dancing career.

47:18A pro, just a pro. I promise there were no poles. No poles, just podium. Sorry, I lowered the tone. I'm so sorry. But yeah, I mean, you know, it could be gorgeous to just sort of have the chance to do those things that I've never had a chance to do because, you know, as a mum, I've never been away on breaks with my girlfriends. I've been once in 20 years of being a mum because they've needed me more kind of thing in my mind. And I've never put myself first. I have not. I don't know many moms who do put themselves first. No. Really. I wonder if this period of time is one that you've actually got to make the most of once they go.

47:54Yeah. Because soon enough, it'll go like a flash, I imagine. Yeah, it will. You might become a grandma. Oh, my God. Do you know what I mean? I know we're not there. True. We're not there. But what I'm saying is that you'll be... But we could be very close. But you could, you know, because you've only got a certain amount of years before that. Yeah, true. That could potentially happen. Yeah. So maybe... I wouldn't mind being a younger grandma. You've got to have a decade of just cramming in all the stuff that you'd want to do. Right, yeah. Before, you know... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because actually, if you think about it, it's probably going to happen within the decade.

48:23Yeah. So I need to get a move on. I'm going to start Googling short breaks. There you go. Short European breaks. If you could write a letter... All those places I haven't been to in the last many years. I just never go anywhere. I'm always here being a mum. You just need to make a list then. Yes. I'm going to start making that list. Maybe do a little mood board. Kind of like a bucket list, but not. Yes. Before I'm needed again list. That's a lovely idea. Yeah. Right? Quite so intensely. Oh my goodness, that's so true. Or just a me list. A list for me. Things I'd love to do. Yeah. Like I'd love to go on a spa break or a wellness holiday.

48:56I'd love to do that or a little yoga holiday. Imagine. Do you know what I would really like? It's so nice. I'd like a silent retreat. Would you? Yeah. Just not to speak at all. No. That would drive me mad. I swear. I could not speak. I'd be talking to myself like day one. It's supposed to be very beneficial though. Yeah. But yeah. When I go away on book tours, I go to my room. Yeah. I leave it dark. I don't turn the radio on. I don't turn the TV on. I just sit there. Yeah. I love it. And you're replenishing your supplies, aren't you? You're like, okay, I need to like fill up again. Just have no one want anything from me.

49:32And not speak. And have no one want anything from you. So true. Every time I hear the word mum, anyway, I'd be in a crowded space. wherever I am, if I hear the word mum, I'm like, jump to attention. Who needs me? Who needs me? I'm here. There's something quite lovely about seeing... For 20 years. You have. There's something quite lovely about seeing other mums in that state where they're really needed with young ones and kind of going, I've got you. So cute. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. I see you. I've been there. I get it. I get it. Yeah. We've walked in your shoes and there is an understanding amongst us that is the great kind of bonder.

50:11You know, it's the great leveler. We've been through it and we know what it takes to be a mum. Absolutely. And we're all just trying our best. We are. You know, that's it, right? We're just trying to be the best mum we can be. We don't want to let our kids down. We don't want to drop any balls. We don't want to miss anything that's really important. We want to be there for every single milestone in their life. That's our job, right? Yeah, absolutely. If you could write a letter on motherhood, who would it be to and what would you say?

50:40maybe to my daughters. And I would probably say, you will never know how much your mother loves you until you become a mother yourself. Because I think when you become a mom, you think, oh, my mom loved me this much. I knew she loved me, but I didn't realize it went this deep. Because as a mother, you would do anything for your kid. They are your absolute priority. And there is no negotiating that. you know it begins and ends with them so I'd write a letter to them and I'd say just remember this love that you will experience as a mother is like no other nobody will ever love you as much as your mom loves you respect that and you know yeah I think so I think it will be to them I think it'll be to them you know um it will be the greatest role of your life and it will be the greatest love of your life.

51:33So get ready for the ride. I've been a mum. Yeah. I love that. We end the podcast with you completing three sentences. Oh. The first one is being a mum means. I think being a mum means unconditional love. Unshakeable. Unconditional love. You'd do anything for them. Since having children, I... Have slept less.

52:08Perhaps. Value sleep more than ever, still. Does it get to a point now, actually, where they're teenagers and they're going out? Yeah, and they have lions. They have lions. They sit there, yeah, they're in bed later than me on the weekends, absolutely. Do you stay up until they are home? No, but I'm tracking them all the time. Right, so you're not sleeping properly then. They allow it. This is not secret tracking. Life 360 is my friend. It's brilliant. It's such a good app, especially when they learn to drive because it tells you how fast they're driving. Oh, really? So you can monitor. It's fantastic.

52:41I'm obsessed with that app. Yeah, because when they start to drive, that's a whole new ballgame to negotiate. You're like, oh, and they made it. They're on a motorway. And you can see how fast they're going. So you're like, it's fine. They're doing 60. So, yeah, and they're there. I can sleep. I remember when Phoebe would learn to drive and she was driving to school. It was really far. It was like a 45 minute drive and she had to go on a motorway. She just learned to drive. I didn't go on a motorway for 10 years. And I remember she and I would watch this app and she'd leave the house at seven because it's a long way.

53:13And I was watching it literally. And as soon as she arrived, I was literally shaking until she arrived. And then I put the phone down to go, she made it. Because it's scary when they're, you know, there's their new drivers and they're in a car and it's like, ah, all these things that you have to sort of go through. You've got to look forward to. I cannot wait. I cannot wait. Yeah, yeah. So it's disrupting your sleep, I guess, in a different way. Yeah. But now in the morning, now that they're sleeping. Yeah. What are you busying yourself with? Because I was gardening, now that they're sleeping.

53:46Oh, nice. Oh, nice. Well, I've got a business that I'm constantly... That's my other baby is the business, and that requires me hours and hours a day, first thing in the morning, last thing at night, it doesn't sleep. And it's growing and it's really exciting getting to be creative. And, you know, I love building a business with my best friend. But it does consume a lot of my time. So I'm usually doing that. It doesn't be quite nice about doing that first thing then as well. Well, I love doing that. Yeah, absolutely. Because I enjoy it. It's enjoyable. You know, it's really fulfilling. But that takes up most of my time.

54:20One more sentence. I'm happy when? my children are happy. Of course you are. As long as they are happy. Because if your kids are not happy, you cannot be happy. Right? So, yeah, I'm content when they are. Tess, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. This has been a dream. Thank you. I love talking parenting. I could do it forever. Like, it's my favourite subject, literally. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Pleasure.

54:55Thank you.