The Audience Had No Idea: Zoe Birkett on Performing Through Pregnancy Loss

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2:09Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of Happy Mum. Today's guest is Zoe Burkett. I can remember watching Zoe on Pop Idol absolutely adored her. To have this young woman who was my age doing that gig it was it was amazing it was such an amazing time in TV and realising that something so exciting was happening. Since then Zoe's career has taken a beautiful route into musical theatre she's taken on so many different roles. Zoe is really honest on social media and last year she shared the fact that whilst performing as Tina, she actually had suffered a miscarriage. And she shared that online. And so we talk about that in this chat.

3:00The fact that sometimes when you go through something that sits so heavily, you have to have that time to sort of process. But then this is the other world in which it's just there on the tip of your tongue in every chat, almost just wanting to get those words out. It's the first time we've ever talked about that, that feeling on the podcast. And actually, since leaving that chat, I've really thought about it. This is really funny, this chat. It's also beautiful and reflective and sadder moments too. Here's Zoe Burkett. I don't do nails because my nails are covered in dirt all the time because I garden, so even though I really scrub them, they're just permanently muddy.

3:50But I love the... The noise. I've got a little noise, but I think that's why I like to write the circus because I was able to have designs on my nails. Yeah. So I had, like, circus balloons. I had Harry, Mark and Goward Goward, that one Harry, who's Harry? You know, Harry Howard, Mark and Gary written on one of them so it was so much fun because normally for like TV work or theatre it's just got to be playing White Tip or nothing as you know but you've got a garden and I haven't I've got Rubble Babe and I'm not working at the moment so it doesn't really matter even better I feel myself every time I'm in an episode in a recording, kind of just slowly realising that my hands are filthy and removing them from the conversation.

4:36Or just stop bending them over. The bend over, not that. I'm just going to remove them. I've seen you eat tomatoes. I'd love a garden. So is there lots of music in your upbringing? Everywhere. Really? Absolutely everywhere. So my dad is a DJ. Yeah. And an incredible one at that. He is just obsessed with real live music. And from when I can remember, we were going to live concerts from very, very young. He doesn't play any instruments, but because he was a DJ, he'd have vinyl. So I always remember, even though my mum and dad were partied, I would go to my dad's on a weekend and I would go on a Friday.

5:16And he would gig on a Friday night, so sometimes I'd have a babysitter or something. But I'd help him get ready for his gigs. so we'd pack the vinyl in his silver you know, his silver disc case but he liked to dress up as like Austin Powers and stuff so I'd always be putting his makeup on in the bathroom and help him get his flares out because he was a full 70s DJ so he'd get his flares ready, help him get his little big old platforms on and put his wig on and prep his wig and my mum would prep his wig he'd send his wigs to my mum to like wash and fluff up and stuff so there was always characters around there was always fun.

5:54There was so much music. My mum was a singer, even though she's very much known to being a hairdresser now. She's always sung. She did a lot of tracks for QFX and rave songs back in the day as I was growing up. She used to prance around the house as Tina Turner. My mum and dad met on a night where my mum was singing and my dad was working behind the bar. My dad worked at Butlins as an entertainer. There was always full entertainment around. but they literally ploughed every single penny and every single moment into making sure that I got what I needed and we didn't have money. I'm not from a family that has money.

6:33I'm from a very, very working class family in the North East, very small town, born and bred in Concert, Durham, raised in Darlington. The thing that I think changed for me was Tony Blair was Prime Minister at the time and the senior school that I was in was being changed into an actual music school. Right. I think it was tech at the time. And he needed to come and cut a ribbon and open this new school. And Mr. Ramsey said to me, we would love for you to sing him a song. And I was like, okay, fine. So we had this little choir and this whole little song. And I sung this song and Cherie Blair was there and just thought nothing of it.

7:10Yeah. And then about two weeks later, the school received a letter from Cherie Blair saying that girl who was singing, we would love for her to sing at our son Leo's christening because they were currently living in Sedgefield. He was prime minister, but they lived in Sedgefield. And so the school of obviously rang my mum, being like, this is going on. I'm like, I'm being pulled into school with a headmaster. Be like, are you going to do it? Rep the school, rep the school. This song's being made for you. I think I was 14 at the time. But I remember turning up outside of this church in Sedgefield and there was just paparazzi everywhere.

7:44everywhere was gated off there was helicopters because Bill Clinton was being flown in it was like so dramatic and I was there my uniform just like this is insane like I've now got to go and sing this song um but yeah and I think that was the the beginning of of something for me then yeah I felt the shift I felt the change um and then I think my parents were like okay how do we now navigate this and what's next and I started kind of stage stage coach on a weekend and I then went and got my mum bless her went and got me classically trained as a vocalist um and again she didn't drive so we would you know have two or three buses in a samosa I'll never forget we used to have a samosa two three buses to Middlesbrough and a cheeky samosa on the way home after massing and lesson yeah and they both provided different things I mean I went through a whole phase of like dancing and like my dad would just dance with me on a weekend and take me disco dancing and we'd win competitions as parent and child so like he kind of tuned into that kind of disco dancing dad and we'd win all the competitions and it was amazing and then like my mum kind of saw that I was dancing but I basically when I was younger went through a process of where I had to have I've now got hip replacement but I went through a process where I had to have pins in my hip so I kind of had to slow down that love for dancing I had to have various conversations with surgeons who literally crushed my dreams because at one point one of my dreams was to be a back and dance for Britney like that was the goal at one point I was like I want to be Brian Friedman and I want to disco dance behind Britney Spears and be in her videos and that was the goal but then I had so many hip problems with my left hip and a surgeon said to me before I mean talk about crushing your dreams as a kid before I went under for this operation he said to me just so you know when you come out of the other side you're not going to be able to dance again I remember being like what?

9:37my mum and dad are sat by the bed and I was like he was like you're going to have three pins inserted into your hip socket because my hip just kept coming out all the time and it turns out I'm a better singer than I am dancers it's been alright and with your career because it's been such an amazing career so varied I can remember the pop idol days I can remember you bursting onto the scene and just being just in utter awe for you like I can remember that so clearly um within all of that did you ever look to the future and um and have any sort of hopes and dreams of becoming a mum yourself no I actually had a conversation with my parents to say I'm probably not going to be a mother we had I had that conversation with them I remember it clear as day because there was I never saw my myself down that path because I thought back then that you couldn't do both yeah what what shifted for you met my husband yeah met my husband and I was like you are amazing he I've never had to compromise any part of me with my husband since we met and as cheesy as it sounds the moment we had our first couple of dates I remember being like this this is it I knew I knew it was him instantly so when When you actually did start thinking about it seriously, did you have to factor lots of things in?

10:58Yeah, and that's the one thing I hate about the business, I have to say. Even pregnancy, even holidays, people getting married, family trips, funerals, everything. Everything has to be factored in. It's one thing I do hate because I think people think, oh, she's flaky or that's who I am. It's actually not. It's the job that I do, unfortunately. When I did, I played Whitney Houston, the Bodyguard musical, and when that came to an end, I was 30 and I had a lot, it was funny, I think because of where I'm from in the north as well, there's a lot of banter flying around and lots of jokes and my cousins are like, your eggs are dying, like ticky tock, you know, and I'm like, you can go away, like I wasn't going to have any, but you know, we're thinking about it.

11:43And I finished that contract and I felt fantastic. I was in a really good place, you know, we We just renovated a flat at the time because we do property as well. We have a property business on the side. So we'd just done one flat in South East London. I'd finished a great job. He was in a great place. We just got a dog. And I was like, it kind of feels like it should be around now. Like it should be now. And I was literally pregnant a month later. No. Yeah. Yeah. Like literally Frankie Fertile. Like super, super pregnant, like a month later. I was like, ah, okay, this is happening then. How did that feel?

12:20Because obviously your head had only just kind of switched around. So how did that, was it a bit of a head spin to kind of go, whoa, I'm now pregnant? Absolutely, because I think, again, now that I'm 41, 30 is so young, but everyone at the time was like, it might take you a while to get pregnant and, you know, come off your pill and your body's going to adjust after being on the pill for so long. And I was like, bam, pregnant. So it was a flip. but then it was also a flip of right we need to get our ducks in a row now and we kind of went down this serious path of like right we've got to change the car we need a really safe car what can we manage yeah what can we do we've got to change everything i maybe you won't believe this so i'm terrible at maths right i've had the same accountant since i was 16 it's probably could be screw me over i wouldn't know because i'm terrible at maths and i'm literally i'm going right well I've got to learn maths now.

13:16This is what I was thinking as soon as I got pregnant. I need to be better at maths because what's going to happen when she goes to infant school and she comes home with homework and I'm not going to know what something times something is and pi and squared. And most of the time was like, wow. So I was like, decided that I wanted to have like a maths course and all sorts because I was like, I'm not good enough. I don't do normal things like normal mummies do. All I can do is do fun stuff around the house of her. Like I kind of went down this spiral place of like, am I going to be good enough? Just panic.

13:45Pure panic. pure panic and then I was like we need to get a better house and my husband's like what so I basically we had the flat in southeast london and I was like at some point I would like to go back to work and my mum very kindly said listen I will be your nanny so you can go back to work and you can carry on with your career I will help wherever I can yeah but I do need to give up my job as a hairdresser because she worked in a salon so it's not like I'm retiring so I need to be paid i'm like absolutely so my mum works for us and that's that's great and we decided that was the first major thing mum is going to work for us okay fantastic so eventually i can go back to work great then i was like i was like to husband well i want to give birth in the northeast he was like we live we live down here babe i want to do all of my antenatal classes i want to do everything in the north he was like oh my god so i've only got to find a house she's gonna buy a flat okay and then we're all gonna uproot to the northeast for how long are we staying in the north in this that I was like until I'm ready because anything could happen to me but I need my mum there and my dad there like at this flat okay so we moved up there and I gave birth in the northeast and I really really wanted to be in my local hospital that I just had such a bad rep their maternity ward was just being you know slagged off the hospital itself has been all you know all sorts of bad reviews on it and I came home and I started my all of that process and nail stuff and no one could believe that I was going back to this hospital.

15:15Well, what made you want to go to somewhere that did have bad reviews? Because it felt like home. I needed to be home for something like that that was so special to me. I grew up in that town. My friends and family were there. I knew, you know, I have a stage school academy that was in that town at the time. Some of the midwives, some of the parents worked in that hospital. I knew that I would be looked after. And it wasn't about wanting special treatment. I just wanted to feel at home on this journey that I was doing where it was something that was so terrifying for me because I never was that young girl who was like, my dream was to be a mammy.

15:51That wasn't whoever I was. So I wanted to be around those people who were going to be like, we're going to teach you how to do this, so you're going to be all right, lass. That northern kind of homely charm I was missing from London. And so I went back to the north in this flat, lived in the flat, gave birth in my local hospital. and it was, the tea were incredible. The surgeon that I had was insane because I was told during my pregnancy as well that I wouldn't be able to give birth naturally. Right. Did your hip have anything to play, a part to play? Yes, that was the main reason. So years of having this really bad hip, they said to me, if I even, throughout my pregnancy, I had a great pregnancy to start with.

16:33It was fab. I felt amazing. I didn't have any morning sickness. I was still doing the odd concert and gig here and there. I was like, yeah, I'm pregnant, wearing the badge. I was like, this is brilliant. So I had a great pregnancy. But towards the end, the bigger I got, I was just so uncomfortable. And because of my hips were so bad. And I think your body goes into, is it called relaxing? Yeah. There was just so much pressure on my hips, which weren't great to start with after having pins in and various problems. So I was constantly monitored. And one thing that they didn't want me to do was to go into an early birth.

17:04it said if you deliver naturally or you go into an early birth, the chances are nine times out of ten is you will have to have an emergency C-section anyway. So I would like to offer you a thing that's called a natural section. And I was like, okay, what's a natural section? They said it's where there is no screen. So the screen is down. So they'll do the incision with the screen up, but then they'll bring it down for you. And your whole birth is like you're watching. It's a natural birth. so basically the this incredible surgeon who came over from newcastle jen o 'brien i'll never forget her name she was wonderful she made the incision and ori's little head popped out and i was like almost and then she said okay zoe adam it's now you can deliver your baby so we had the top of her shoulders and we pulled her out i know it was it was the most magical thing i've ever experienced it was like it's the closest thing for someone who can't deliver naturally yeah to feel that feeling and be part of it and visually see it because I can't imagine how hard it must be to then you know have an emergency section you're in the screen's up and then the baby's out but this whole process was just so magically magically done I had my playlist on making you feel like you're a part of it rather than something that's happening to you yeah exactly that and so that in my own hospital around people I mean one of the mums who was in the room was a friend of a child that I used to teach and they were like you all right Zoe I was like I think I'm good because I I felt so faint, I remember, when the whole thing was, the delivery was happening, I felt so faint, that at one point, you know, I had the sick bucket, and this mum just came over, and she was just stroking my head, she was going, you're doing great, so you're doing fine, and my husband was at the top, and it just felt, it felt amazing.

18:48The whole experience of that birth was just incredible, and just to be able to hold Aria, the pair of us, and bring it, and then straight, you know, skin on skin, instantly straight away. And did you have an expectation of what that moment would be like? Can I tell you the truth? Yeah. Absolutely, that's why I'm here. Oh, honestly, I thought she was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen. She actually took my breath away because we filmed the whole thing for us as a family. And as soon as Jen popped her head out, I was like, I was like, to my husband, she's absolutely beautiful. She was like, my husband's got beautiful party lips.

19:22And she had like, my little, because my husband's Turkish Cypriot, so he has this Greek nose, you know, and this Turkish nose. But she had this little button nose and my husband's massive lips. And I was like, she's absolutely, she just genuinely took my breath away. And I was like, she's beautiful. So from seeing her from the first time to, I feel like I see her differently. Every time if I go away for a concert for two days, I come back and she's different again. I'm like, how are your feet that big now? You know, little things are just changing in front of my eyes. But being a mom has been the highlight of my life.

19:53It's definitely been the best thing I've ever done. Ever done. Does that surprise you, knowing that it was something you were reluctant to even do? Yeah, I just didn't think I'd be able to find something and love something as much as I did it as music. But yeah, I love it way more and it's a completely different love. And I still get that thrill of being on stage, but then I also cannot wait to go home. And I'm like, I'm thinking, OK, it's like 10 past 12, I'm stuck in traffic. Like, oh, will she be there on the top of the stairs for an extra 10 minutes? Or will she go back to bed? Little things.

20:28And I just cannot wait to get home to her. And the more I bring her to, you know, she's a little short-biz kid and she's got great etiquette backstage and don't touch the props, don't do this. She knows how to act. So any time I can get her to come, I will. So she knows if Mammy's got to be away for two weeks for filming something, it's because I'm doing this. So she's got an insight of why I'm doing it, which I think is important. And I think the woman that I've become now, I do wish I'd had her younger and had more because I want her to see that mommy can do that, that you can still have your dreams and still be successful.

21:07But she is seeing that. Yeah, I hope so. She's seeing you live that. Yeah, I hope so. How were those early days of having a baby? Because obviously you're now, you're back down here, but then Adam's got to go out to work. At some point, you've got to think about going back to work. So what was that first little bit like when it was just you and her? I loved it. Did you? Oh, absolutely. I loved every little gurgle. Was that a gurgle? She just gurgled in the family group. She just gurgled, guys. There was a gurgle. There was a murmur. I love it. You're the most annoying person in the family or sound group.

21:42I'm just the most annoying, enthusiastic person there is, period, to be honest. My husband's always like, can you take out a battery today, please? You're like a tornado. or you come in this house, you whirlwind and then just bugger off. He's like, can you take a battery out today? Any little, anything that she did throughout that period that I was off. And I mean, I was only, I went back, my first concert back was four months. But I just, it was just fab. And it was a new house. So it was, you know, decorating. It was, you know, doing the nursery. And it was creating new memories for the house.

22:17My husband would come back home and I'd painted a wall with Ari. and I was just like, yeah, I've done lots of multitasking today. I've done this, done this, done that. I've got us a dining table as well as raising a child. There was that whole period of that new home, this new baby. It was so exciting. But those early ones, the little toes and the little toenails and then, you know, the people coming around and making sure you're doing all right and you're kind of tidying your house. I was literally like, okay, someone's come around today so I've got to make sure everything looks like I'm a really great mother.

22:47You know, that means the house has got to be really clean. We put ridiculous pressure on ourselves in that way, don't we? Because for some reason, we can't just have someone come around and see us as we are. Yeah. We need to kind of make sure that we look the part and that everything is under control so we can be that super mum. I remember putting on some false eyelashes when someone came. No, you didn't. Yeah, I did when someone came around because I was like, my house needs to be uber clean and I need to look like I can manage. So let me just get out some false eyelashes and put on a false eyelash so that they go, oh, she looks great as well.

23:15She's doing it all. I was her. I actually gave birth with the false eyelashes on. No, you didn't. I absolutely did. I had French knit tips done. I had false eyelashes on. I was like, I just want to look nice. I want to feel nice. And then I just looked absolutely haggard. But yeah, it was navigating, still trying to keep a little bit of me. Yeah. With this whole, you know, my body had changed. I was in absolute agony for it. My hip had just given up as well. So I could hardly walk. And then, you know, with the recovery from my section, I was at home a lot but it was great fun the only bit I didn't like and I've said this a few times and I wish I had a better experience with it was I went to a few like classes yeah baby classes with mums and I just didn't enjoy that for me it wasn't good because where we lived at the time I don't think they intended these mums to maybe go back to work and that was great fine they wanted to be stay at home mums they had a very rich husband and they were like you know what's the plan for you are you going to thought about schools I was like, I thought about skills.

24:19I don't know what I'm having for tea. Like, I thought about skills, yeah. So the conversation for me just wasn't right for me. And I remember having a conversation with one lady. We were doing kind of the yoga things with the baby on the mat. And I was like, yeah, I actually had my first concert back. I go back next month and she's like, you're going back to work? And I was like, yeah. She was like, oh. And it was that, oh, in the tone of it. And I was like, yeah, I love my job. I absolutely love my job. I know I'm going to be a better mother when I go back to work. I was like, I need my job to keep that bit of me.

24:48and she was like, oh, I don't need to work, and she was like, I just want to be, and I was like, okay, great for you, and then that really put a bad taste in my mouth, and I never went back again. It's how people respond, right? So even if people think they, there's always undertones, right? So if someone goes, oh, I just couldn't do it. Yeah, fine. Fine. Yeah, fine. You twat. Yeah, fine. Because you know what you've just done? Yeah. You've just passed judgment. 100%. Even if you think you haven't put judgment on, you absolutely have. You did, yeah. You absolutely have. so don't muck around and make it kind of, you haven't been supportive in any way before.

25:22Yeah, in any way. You couldn't possibly do it because you're a better mother because you have to be with your child the whole time. Absolutely. That's basically the undertones. Yeah. That's all there is to say. And also from other people as well, I mean, I did have people who'd known me for years going, oh, so you're finally going to slow down. And I was like, slow down. I am gearing right up. Like, my reps are high. I've now got something to fully, like, live for. Yeah. But, I mean, I wasn't seen for anything for such a while. as well with work because you've had a baby now. I was like, really?

25:51Oh my god. Yeah. I'll never forget, I got a voice note off somebody who was a director who I'd worked for and they said to me how's your voice now you've had a baby? And I was like exactly the same. Why? Because I've heard that once you have a baby because your diaphragm loses strength and you might not have the power. I just want to see where your voice was at because we're thinking about you for a project and I was like I'll be 100%. I was like I'm absolutely great, thank you very much. There's such There's such a stereotype, I think, on working mums, especially sometimes within the business as well.

26:23Well, how did you feel about doing a run of something? Was that something that you were hoping for? Was it something that you thought actually shoved it down the line a little bit? I kind of knew that I was ready. I mean, I had Ari in the April, had a couple of concerts throughout the summer that I went back for. And again, I was expressing and then kind of combi feeding as well as I was going. And then I'd been offered in the May, like a month later, a panto for the Christmas to headline. And I was like, yeah, I'll do it. And also, let's be real, this is money. This is how you're providing for your child.

26:53100%. Yeah. I was like, I'll do it. And I needed to also rip that bandaid off of going back to work and challenging myself and just getting physically fit again. And the excitement of, you know, some adult conversation again and little things like that where I was like, I'd missed so much of that with not being in shows. But, I mean, I worked right the way up in my pregnancy until I was seven months until we moved to the north. And I loved it. I loved it. My singing was fine. Everything was fine because I wasn't, you know, thrown up. And again, I had a lovely pregnancy. Catherine Jenkins, when she was in years ago, she said that her voice actually got better in pregnancy because of the relaxing.

27:30Relaxing. Because it was kind of just like... Yeah, it was free. Yeah. It was absolutely free. But so I went back to work fully in a contract in the December, November for Panto rehearsals and then did the show. But Panto's probably a nice way to start back as well because you've got a fixed period. It's a fixed period. You know, you're not going in for a year. is kind of this nice. It was lovely. It was really great. Because I'd already said yes to that, I knew I had those couple of months to kind of, okay, let me figure things out. The Panto was in the north, which was even better because I still had the flat.

28:00So I was like, great. I don't need to find digs. We've got the flat there anyway, so we'll stay in the flat. Everyone will move up for Christmas. We'll have Christmas. The family will come around. In my head, it was like a dream. And it was. It was brilliant. But once I got back into a contract of like, we want you for 12 months, I was like right how's this how's this going to work and that was bedtimes go yeah and all all of that to me was just I hated not reading her story she's such honestly an amazing reader and she's read books since she was tiny we've always read to her and that was our thing putting her to bed sleep you know reading the book and I'm saying my husband I still read into her he's like I'm reading to her every night but I mean that's where I think now my boundaries have come as a mother when I'm in a show I'm always ready by 7.15 regardless because I'm obsessed I love that you do this I know what you're about to say and I absolutely love I love that you do this I'm obsessed with time and I'm like no one can be in my room at 7 o 'clock nobody don't care who you are don't come and knock on my door 7 o 'clock is when I say goodnight to my daughter and that's my thing we'll catch up on the day because 9 times out of 10 I've done warm up I might have done some interviews and all of a sudden oh my goodness it's 7 o 'clock and I haven't spoken to her since school don't come in can I come and give you a note no you can't like you can't you either give it to me at one more you shouldn't be coming in through the note after the half come on they do people put boundaries right people do no you're not even my dresser I'm like come in at like 7.10 I'll have 10 minutes on the phone with Ari and have a little catch up and there's things like that that I've put in place where I'm like I don't want anyone to intrude on those precious moments for me with my daughter because we sacrifice so much anyway with our evenings and getting that one day off on a Sunday or maybe a Monday is torture because you're so tired, but you literally have to just...

29:43I'll tell you what happens for me. On a Saturday night, nine times out of ten, I'll always say to Ari on a Saturday, should I have a sleepover tonight? Even though I know I'm going to be exhausted from doing all those shows, and she's going to wake up super early on a Sunday, but I feel like I need that closeness on the end of the week. So Saturday night comes, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I've definitely promised Ari a sleepover. Okay, I've just done two shows, but it's fine. And I get in, and she's there waiting. My husband's in the spare room, which is there, in the bed and she's there having a kiss lovely then we go to sleep together and she's about half six and I'm like and I've hardly I've hardly slept but those are the moments that really like refuel me those moments even though I'm shattered I know on Sunday night because I've had a rubbish sleep with the sleepover because she kicks the living daylights out of me as well Sunday night I'm like I'm out like a light and then I'm fresh again to going on a Monday but I think those moments that I've put in as a mom in this business I think no one can take those away and I hope I hope she still wants them when she's a teenager it's going to break my heart when she's like mum I can't do Midnight Kiss anymore tonight because I'm going out with Steve I'll be like who's Steve so yeah that's so true it'll be her that changes the pattern not you she's going to change it I know so it's like she has such a good bond with both of us for different things which I love which I love and then of course we've got Nana at the end of and Grandad at the end of the garden which she has another relationship with she gets a real murder honestly I'm like mum remember how hard he used to be on me and used to be strict because, you know, you brought me up as a one-parent family.

31:12Can you do that without a child, please? Because she's spoiled rotten. I can remember my dad sending me a video, actually, of Buzz. He'd had Buzz for a couple of days. And he was sending a video of Buzz jumping all over the sofa. And Dad, like, really encouraging him to jump off the coffee table onto the sofa. I was like, what are you doing? We would not have got away with that. Never, never, ever. I know. We are quite strict as parents. There's times I go, are we too strict? but I think our parent is a little bit old school. Get outside and play at the minute. We're in a house renovation, so there's none of that.

31:45But get outside and play, read some books, write something. We have a thing in six weeks, and she's at the age now where she's like, do I have to? Because she's done it every year. The start of the six weeks holidays, I give her a notepad and pen, and every day she has to create a diary of what she's done on that day. Because I'm like, Ari, you've got no idea. We get invited to so many events as a family. This is not normal. Your life is not normal. Daddy was raised in a council flat in London Mummy was raised in a council house You have a bedroom with an en suite Are you okay? We're building stuff This is not normal, we weren't raised this way We're doing this for you, so I need you to write down These memories, so she has this Everyday diary and she doesn't miss a day At the end of the six weeks, I'm like, now you can look back And see all these amazing things that you've done in six weeks How lucky are you to experience all these things These events you've been invited to Your play dates you've had with your friends I want her to never take any of this like for granted because I think she could easily do and I think and I also this might sound a bit harsh but I I really want her to experience failing it's really important because we have failed multiple times I'm constantly getting no's for jobs for this that and the other and I'm like okay we move on we carry on I I want her to know that feeling of failing and how you what you do with that feeling and how you turn it into a positive and it encourages you to be better and or to practice harder or you know look at a different avenue maybe maybe that no jolts you somewhere else that you didn't realize you were going to be better at maybe you know my if I didn't have my hip surgery and that surgeon saying to me you're never gonna dance again would I be a successful singer maybe not so so I feel like I'm trying to raise a soft girl but a tough one as well you know like that hey guys it's mary from two judgy girls this episode is sponsored by airy if you're counting down the minutes until you take your bra off when you get home it's probably the wrong bra or if the straps are digging into your shoulder or you're constantly adjusting throughout the day it's definitely time to get a better fit that's why we love airy their bras are designed to be the essential effortless first layer with soft fabrics, great fits, and up to 59 sizes so you can find the one that's right for you.

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34:42How old was Aria before you and Adam started thinking about growing the family? Last year, year before last, 2024. I think when we moved house, so the plan was always to have my mum and her husband move down, try and find something maybe in the same street, in the same area, couldn't find anything. I was looking for 18 months, found this plot of land, lovely. Offer was accepted, but we knew it was going to be a couple of years of just madness, and it was. But when we started seeing the house come together, which was, oh, wow, it was February last year. we'd moved back into the home. And I was like, we've got all this wonderful space now.

35:24My mum is here, who's our nanny anyway. Wouldn't it be great? And Ari was at that age of being like, why don't I have a brother and sister? And I never, we'd never even wanted to have another one. We'd always said with Ari, just the one, great. And I was able to juggle bits and bobs. Adam was, and my mum was there. But then in February, we just kept talking about it. And then I think because I knew also I was coming up for 40. I was like that's kind of ticking if we're going to do this we need to really think about this I leave Tina in the June so is it worth really having a conversation about this and we just decided yeah let's do it okay let's let's let's try and I was like oh wait it's like we're gonna do it I was like okay amazing we didn't tell anybody like the whole thing was such a surprise for everybody and it was such such a happy moment like I'll never forget finding out the day that Adam knew that I was pregnant before I knew Tom always says this he knew straight away he was like you're pregnant I'm not I said well this is the funny thing I went it was only a month ago and he's like and what happened first time round and I was like oh yeah and I was like no I was like I'm due on any day did a pregnancy test you're pregnant and I was like and I remember it was a very it was an overly excitement feeling but I had to show that night so in that moment everything was like wow and then I was like whoa the seriousness of the role that I'm in playing Tina was how what's going to happen next how am I going to navigate this I don't want to tell anybody yet I shouldn't have to tell anybody yet until you know we're given all the okay and the scans and stuff but I know that I'm going to have to it was the main thing that worried me was the show itself by far the hardest role in the West End without being pregnant yeah the trauma that you put your body through mentally, physically, vocally was already a lot.

37:20I'm not saying it was easy. I loved being Tina. It's been the highlight of my career because I found a sound that came natural to me. I never lost my voice once. I was the fittest I'd ever been, so I was physically able. I'd had my hip replacement done, so therefore I was like, I can do anything you want. What do you want? Fight call? I'm in. I was just like, the timing of it was great. I was almost 40. The story was based really around Tina early years, but then in her 40s. So I felt as an actress, the timing was right as well with my age. But I just knew then, I can't do fight calls tonight.

37:57Probably shouldn't do any of them kicks in the dancing. Oh, right, okay. I'm going to have to call the clinic manager. So I'm having to tell, not strangers, but my company before I've even told my family and my cousins and things and really celebrate. My daughter. I didn't tell Ari at all until the end and so we had this call on stage we re-choreographed some safety fights and I felt safe all the time I had no nausea so it felt the same as my first time around we didn't it wasn't up to my 12 weeks I would have been so it wasn't until June that I was kind of itching for a scan by this point I'd been surviving the shows I was slowly getting out of breath because it was almost like my muscle memory of being pregnant kicked back in.

38:45I started to show. My boobs became bigger and I had to say to then my current manager, I'm now going to have to tell wardrobe because the only people who knew were the Ikes. I'm now going to have to have a conversation with her wardrobe because I'm going to have to use another girl's dress. That's fine. Are you sure you're okay with it? I said, I'm going to have to tell my dresser and my dresser was wonderful. But I had to put so much trust in other people to not say anything to anybody else before even my family. so changed my costumes, told my dresser, they were like, oh, okay. I said, I just need extra water if I'm a bit out of breath.

39:14This is the reason why I did it. Okay, fine. Everything was great. And then we were just so desperate to tell Aria, so desperate. I told my dad. He was on his anniversary and holiday with his wife. My husband filmed his face. I was like, Dad, what are you doing at Christmas? He was like, why? I was like, because I'm going to need an extra pair of hands. He was like, why? Because that's my due date. He was like, what? Because everyone just thought we weren't going to do it again. So there was such a high emotion around everybody and the people who knew it work. And then I said to my husband, I said, I really think we should have a scan, an early scan.

39:47Let's just go and private and get it done. Just so we can tell Aria. I'm desperate for her to know. He was like, absolutely fine. One came up tomorrow, had the day off, my show off. Fine. Went in, sat down, and I think because I was so physically fit and everyone around me told me, even when we were chatting over the years about being pregnant, like of course you can do it again like you're so fit you're gonna be absolutely fine I was like I felt like invincible at that time I was like if anyone can be pregnant successfully right now it is me I was like I'm fine and I laid in the bed and she went I'm so sorry and as soon as she said sorry me and Adam just looked at each other and she was like um the sack um it's basically collapsed inside and we were like right and she was like you're gonna miscarry like in the next 72 hours and I was like what and I just remember like the feeling of I'd faded a couple of times over the years because I have low iron but the feeling of that I'm gonna faint right now like my ears are about to go off my head is gone I need just to get outside I kind of clambered out of the bed and I went outside but my husband was still there and I think he was just saying to her what's what's happened she said somewhere along the line the egg hasn't latched on like correctly um the sack has now collapsed i'm really really sorry and he was like so then what happens and he said and it was just kind of that you just you go home and you wait and i was like huh but i remember that whole ride home was like my ears were just pounding and i was like i'm gonna kept saying i'm gonna faint i'm gonna pass out it's like okay we'll pull over he was all a mess in a shock obviously my mom and her husband were waiting like to get a scan of something and they were there waiting and I remember just breaking down on my mum's terrace being like I'm gonna I'm about to miscarry mum she was like what and I was like I couldn't breathe I was like I'm gonna miscarry at some point I don't even know I think not knowing when what am I what do you mean when is it today is it tomorrow is the next hour I just need to know when to prepare to prepare myself because I'd never been through anything like this before and I also hadn't had any friends go through it so I was like what do I do am I sitting to am I sitting waiting got a you ought to do tomorrow like what do you mean and then I took the obviously took this tablet and just played this waiting game for hours but I had to call my agent had to call work and my agent said just do not speak to anybody let you can't sorry let me just speak to people for you let them let me tell them what has happened um they can deal with it on their side you were no rush to be going back you might not want to go back like let's just cross that bridge when we come to it so she dealt with all that side which was brilliant I didn't have to think about a thing but in the in the same breath I then had like 72 people come in for because it's my 40th birthday the next week the time there's never going to be a right time but the timing of this for me was so bad because that was on June the 8th on the 16th was my garland night for my 40th birthday and then I was leaving and we also had a big garden night on the 21st so like I've got to get through these next two and a half weeks like I have to but I don't know when I'm going to miscarry I don't know when I'm able to go back to work am I stopping bleeding like all these questions and so I had people and messaging me going can't wait to see you in the show tomorrow this is on the Monday of the day it was happening I was I was like I can't even just deal with that I just can't like I need to just there's a lot of people coming I need to just ignore it for now went home and then just had the most traumatic experience but we've in the end my husband took me to hospital because we found out that my cervix wasn't opening right so in the end they said we're gonna have to give you like an emergency operation I was like okay fine and within like three hours my dad was there in the room with my mom and my husband sat there my daughter was with my mom's husband back at the house none the wiser I had to go to state school was great fine but I had my three most important people like in that room with me at the time my dad was just didn't helpless I think as a man he didn't know what to do what to say I was like screaming the walls and they put me in and then I came out and it was just such a weird experience but the hospital was so lovely that they let my husband and my mom and my dad stay um so they were with me and then they kind of took turns and my husband was just amazing unbelievable um and then like I remember the next day going home and seeing my daughter and that was such a moment for me it was like a oh my goodness like I just didn't want to let her go I was like how regardless of what has happened how blessed am I that I have this one like something just happened where I just I didn't want to let go I wanted to meet Nimi I wanted to make her laugh I also because she was unaware I just had to pretend that everything was fine she's like Mammy where were you last night I said Mammy's hip has been so sore Aria my hip has been so sore I had to just go to hospital last night and get my hip sorted she's like is it okay now can I say you know just being and I was just thinking she's just got no idea I'm just protecting her from all of this and I had I had four shows off and I went and saw my doctor and they said listen then we know you've got two weeks off.

45:17We don't think you should go back. I was advised to not go back. But I think there was no pressure from anybody else at work to come back. But the reality of the situation was I don't want to tell anybody. Nobody knew I was pregnant, let alone that I'd miscarried. I didn't want to have to be like, I'm so sorry I'm not on tonight. My agent had casting people coming in for the final week. The garland night was packed. it was a sellout night there was celebrities coming there was family coming there was a coach load from the north east coming 72 people I was like I've got to do this regardless so we'll stick to the same fights that I did when I was pregnant because I'm in no position to be going back to a full show as we know it and nobody knew the cast didn't know I didn't even tell the Ikes so they like still thought I was pregnant it was only my dresser and that's where I kind of really appreciated the dresser that I had for Dest because the doctors were like, you're obviously going to have, you're still going to be bleeding and you're not allowed to wear a tampon.

46:26And I was like, I need, you cannot, it will cause infection, you can't. And half of the time, all my quick changes were on stage. There was a couple that were in the wings. And for Dest was just like, are you okay? What do you need? Pads were there. anytime I needed to like in the interval she'd give me space I'd go and you know check on myself and she was just like anything she was like checking my dresses to see if I was leaking all these things that I could have just done at home I had to do on stage but again it was my choice and I've spoken about it very openly and people have gone you should have you should have been at home but I also being in that space was also therapy for me as well it was such an escape doing the mega mix at the night we know the audience are on their feet clapping and I was and there was so many times I was like you've got no idea like what I'm going through you've got no idea but then again the messages that I was getting when I wasn't on them four shows while I was having my miscarrying you know miscarrying was enough for me I just didn't want the messages anymore right I was like I would rather be on stage going through this personally myself doing what I have to do for those two and a half hours than deal with the influx of messages from people wondering where I am, to be honest, and me lying about this brand new lovely hip I've got, being like, it's just my hip, it's feeling a bit dicky, than replying to people and going, I'm off.

47:52Because of the timing of the two weeks, everybody was in, and I only had a five and a three show left, so it wasn't like I was on every day. Everyone had booked for those shows. and I just, I didn't want to, I guess part of me didn't want to let them down. Part of me didn't want to let my team down, the company down. I wanted to end because it was, other than that experience, it was the most incredible year of my life and I also wanted to end with them as well. Well, how did it feel coming to the end of that run? Because at this point, the end of the run also marks the end of you having to carry on in that capacity, carrying on that pain and hiding it.

48:34Yeah, yeah. Again, for Desmae, my dresser, bless her, she captured it straight after the show. I don't know how they got around so quickly because what happened on the last day, I was on the night, so in the afternoon, there was a matinee on, and I went in a little bit early, just so I could be part of the matinee vibe and enjoy my last days with everybody and, you know, cheer on the other team in the afternoon, and it was, I just wanted to be there. And then my husband called me at three o 'clock and he went, you're not going to believe this, Ori wants to watch tonight. And I'd spent 12 months trying to get her to watch the show.

49:06But because there was fighting in it, she just was like, I don't want to. I said, Ori, it's all pretend. You'll meet our lovely actor Roland. He's a great guy. It's all pretend. It's magic. It's an illusion. Today of all days, she wanted to watch the show. Husband went, can I get two tickets? I was like, I don't even know if there is any. Mark, he went, we'll find somewhere. It might be the back. I said, it's fine. She's going to come. And I remember at the end of the show, the only gutting thing for me was that I kind of didn't do the I guess the the original fights if you like but nobody would have known nobody knew at all it was the same show I mean the messages that I got from people within that two weeks while I was still very much miscarrying were like oh my goodness you're unbelievable oh my god you're how are you doing that I was thinking I do not know I'm doing you don't even know what I'm going through you haven't got a clue and yet you would never know which I'm really proud of but at the end of that final show really speedily my husband and my daughter came to my dressing room and it felt like oh my god I just couldn't believe that I'd done it I couldn't believe that I'd done the 10 months anyway as well as I did I was really happy from the Tina fans and the producers the feedback that I'd got for my teen already that was like I'm so happy that it was appreciated the work that I'd put in but then I was like I cannot believe I've just done that in the last two weeks I cannot believe it and as soon as I saw my husband and my daughter I remember just being like and I kind of flopped and my dresser was like I should give them a moment but while she was like fannying on she kind of took a little snap and she sent it to me and I've still got that picture and my husband and my daughter just they cradled me and I was like a child I was just sobbing and sobbing I was like I cannot believe that I have just that I have just done that I can't I can't believe I found the strength I cannot believe I've said the text because there was so much in that text let alone the fighting and the singing in the text of Tina she had children so there was a scene where I gave birth within the scene there was a scene where I had to hold a newborn baby there was you know see there was there was one bit of the text that was like how am I going to say that because the producers did say to me think about remember what's in the text of the script and there's one fight scene where Roland would drag me around the Ike drag me around and he'd go to hit me and I and I used to scream I'm pregnant and it's the first time I said it after coming back oh it was just like and then I realized what they meant in that conversation with the producers of think about the text that you're saying there is so much that I'm doing and then she was pregnant and then I did the birth scene and then I was holding the baby the next scene and it wasn't till I was doing it where I was like oh yeah I forgot about this moment oh yeah that moment but by the end I just I was really sad to leave like that yeah if I'm being honest I would have loved of course to have had another another child I would have loved to have ended it being pregnant and being like you know yeah because a few of the fans throughout my April to June where I was pregnant took lots of pictures in the finale where I'm visibly pregnant there's one picture in particular where at the end I've got a full bump and I'm actually not realising I'm actually like this and I'm waving and I'm holding it but I have those memories from that, which is lovely from some of them photos from the fans.

52:41And it took me three months. I didn't really tell anybody and I wasn't too sure whether I was going to even say to Aria. Really? Just so you know, mummy and daddy tried. And we had that conversation with her and she was like, oh, well, how come it didn't work? How come I haven't got up with her assistant? How did it die? And I was like, oh, kids are just so, you know. So brutal. So brutal. I was like, well, mummy's and daddy's mixture just didn't work this time. The oven wasn't ready and I tried to kind of do like a cakey thing. And she's like, okay, and kind of moved on to the next thing. And I wasn't even too sure whether I was going to even mention it to anybody, whether I was going to say anything publicly.

53:18But I tell you what, ripping that band-aid off for me was one of the best things that I've done. Really? Oh, my goodness. I kind of went through a phase last year, I would say last summer. I had some incredible gigs with the BBC. one of them was in Malta and one of the singers I was singing with I'd never met her before and we were by the pool and within like the first 10 minutes I was like I've just had a miscarriage and I just literally dropped it bomb in a conversation and she was like oh and I thought sorry what are you doing how awkward it's a stranger but then I found myself I kept doing that all the time last summer to anybody how are you Tina was great by the way how was it to end how was your 40th birthday how was the girl and I was like yeah yeah yeah yeah and then I had a miscarriage all the time Just kept flying out my mouth.

54:04There's something quite freeing about it. I had a miscarriage last year, Zoe. And no, no, there is something about saying I had a miscarriage. There's something about saying it. Yeah. Because otherwise we just carry it and it's also an acknowledgement of what happened. Yeah. But I know that because I do this, right? And I have people talking about it all the time. But having you suddenly kind of having that coming out, having that, dropping that with different people. Did it kind of make you go, look, this is making me feel freer. It did. So I need to speak about it a little bit more. Yeah, it did.

54:40I did feel selfish because I kind of put people in uncomfortable positions where I was like, it probably wasn't in, you know, a conversation where we were talking about children. It was just really random. But it is there, right? It is there and it's waiting. It's waiting to come out. It's desperate to get out. Not as much anymore. And it's not something that I've forgot about or put to bed because, you know, me and my husband still very much talk about, you know, did we try again? and what do we feel? And we are like, I think this is the bit that I don't like is that we still both don't know because he's still quite affected by what I went through, what he saw.

55:15It's so sad sometimes for us because the house is coming on now and that is the only room that I can't touch it yet. I don't know what I want with it yet. I haven't fully decided whether we want to go again because I don't really want to go through that again. My husband doesn't want to go through it again, but we both still talk about it. I'm like, shall we? Shall we do it? And then we're like, what we're doing with the front room? The bill is like, what's going on in the front room? Are you painting what color? I'm like... And can we just say that the other thing that happened last year and this year is there are so many women that we know in the public eye who are around 40 who were getting pregnant.

55:54Were getting pregnant, 100%. So there was that sudden thing of, we ain't old to be doing this. Absolutely that. and that's again that's where I was like I'm absolutely fine if she can do it I can absolutely do it I'll be absolutely fine I loved it first time around it's going to be great if I get sickness my body's going to be different but I will adjust with it it'll be fine off the back of Tina I was like I'll be fine listen I need a little bit of a break anyway we'll do a couple of concerts lovely so I I think out of anybody we weren't expecting that for for me and I think Then I went through a phase of kind of looking back and being like, did I do too much in that fight that day?

56:34Did I kick a bit too high? Should I have done them spins in the finale? Then my brain went into a spiral of like, you might have done too much here. That was the wrong role to be even trying for, let alone being pregnant. All this stuff went to my head. And then I went and saw this wonderful doctor and she was like, no it happened from the beginning like his sperm latched onto a dead egg from the beginning and your body still acts like you're pregnant that's the tragic thing of the whole thing so I'm like so it wasn't it wasn't it she's like no from the beginning that would have happened and that alone was like again a huge weight and a huge relief that I didn't do something wrong within that show and that I was extra cautious and you know I was drinking little things I started to drink loads of milk I don't even drink milk I drink oat milk Like, my husband was like, second time around, I get enough calcium, like all these stupid little things that we do.

57:28But I now come to understanding that it's extremely common. Happens to so many of us. And since speaking about it, loads of people who I am close with, who I didn't even know had miscarried, have had miscarriages. And I was like, but I didn't know. They're like, no, I didn't want to. I think, I feel like we feel a little bit ashamed about speaking about it. Like it's because it's our body, it's our fault. So where do you find that space to talk about it? Like we said, it's just there waiting, right? But you have to have either that opening or something. And I do think that having you talking the way that you have done, it kind of makes people feel like it's not just them.

58:05You know what I mean? It's something that I don't have to carry that guilt. I don't, you know, I'm not the only... For me, I say it's the loneliest grief to go through a miscarriage because especially if you're not told people, you just have to sit on it. And all of those hopes, those dreams, you feel like you failed, right? And I think to be able to open up that conversation and to be in the ears of other people who are maybe going through it and trying to process it and not finding the words, not being brave to open up those conversations with other people, I think it gives people so much, actually, to have those conversations out there.

58:43But I never realised how much it would, to be honest. Really? honestly the day that I put it up and I said to I checked with Adam I was like I'm gonna I'm gonna I wanna I wanna tell people now I think I'm ready and I was like and I'm not a person it's funny even though you kind of do things online I'm actually quite a private person there's a lot that people don't see and I was like do you think it's too much because I don't want anyone to be like why are you sharing this you know I've got a very positive page but I was like I need people I feel like I need people to know I want to share this about about what I've gone through I've really he felt really passionate about it and I was like do you mind and he was like no absolutely not of course that's absolutely fine and from the moment I put it up it was like just so many people were like thank you oh I feel seen or I went through the same thing I've been through multiple when I hear the word multiple I'm literally like my goodness like my whole everything was oh at the time from one when people are multiple I'm like and I think just having I guess someone to to listen maybe or have you know share that same similar experience and I've always said my inbox is open because I do sit and reply to people all the time I'm like that's okay I can message you back it's absolutely fine because it's a very common thing and I had no idea it was yeah at at all the amount of people that I've just sent support and love and thanks and then I went for like a rabbit hole of like man in class and her documentary and i just kind of i want to know more about it as well yeah and some wise and the support that we have for it as well that is out there and and then loads of kind of you know women charities and um mom networks and things came came through to check on me which was just unbelievable i was like oh my goodness like there's such support out there yeah for anybody going through it you're definitely not alone it's more more common than we think i think it's a really important thing to remember um if you could write a letter on motherhood who would it be to and what would you say thanks to my mum would be one of my letters for sure for absolutely everything and still doing everything to this date um and then maybe to myself of just don't be scared.

1:01:02People, everybody finds a way somehow. I know people who've got, you know, more working hours than me, more demanding jobs than me, people out there saving lives. And yet they do it. I've got a friend who's a nurse and she's got four children. And I'm like, how are you surviving a day? And then you're saving people's lives. Like women find a way. And I really wish I knew that when I was younger. We end the podcast with you completing three sentences. Okay. The first one is being a mum means. Oh, being a mum means. Well, definitely having toys and squidgies in my pocket all the time. You just don't know what you're finding there.

1:01:40My daughter in these squidgy, neado-y things. It's just squidgies everywhere. So, yeah, definitely having toys in your pocket when you think they're the car keys and they're not the toys. I've loved being a mummy. I love it. I still do. And it's going to be extremely challenging, but as we get into teenage years, so I hear. But I've loved it. Next sentence. Since having a child, I... Oh, wow.

1:02:06I definitely haven't grown up. I feel like people go, you have kids and you have to grow up because you've got this little thing to be responsible for. I feel like I want to do more. I feel like I've got a responsibility now to her for someone to look up to. It's changed me fully for the better, being a mother. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it really has. It's shaped who I was meant to be. I think I was always meant to be a mum, really. And I never knew that at all. I was always meant to be a mum. Final sentence. I'm happy when. Oh, I'm happy when. I'm in my happiest, I'm being completely honest, if I've got all of my family coming to see me at a concert.

1:02:52Really? Yeah. Which is often. I love that. That's all your happy worlds colliding. All my happy worlds colliding. It was my birthday in June. And that night was a Take That concert in Cardiff. It was my 41st. I was like, I'm singing for Take That. We got on Airbnb. All the family were there. They were all dressed up as clowns from the circus. They all had different outfits on because we love to dress up. And they watched the show. They got to have cuddles and kisses. I had a great show that night. I had a great birthday. We went back to the Airbnb. We stayed up. We popped some champagne. Had some birthday cake.

1:03:24Had some nibbles. chatted all night for hours on end. That's when I'm at my happiest. Everyone's come along to have a good night at the show and then we go somewhere after and we talk about the show or we talk about whatever, you know, put the wheels to rights and Ari goes to bed and I'm sat left with my unit, with my strong unit. I think that's when I'm at my happiest, truly. Zoe, thank you so much. Thank you. I've loved chatting with you. Me too. It's been a good night, hasn't it? Thank you. I know. It's so good.

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